Unveiling the Boogeyman: The Poetic Journey of Tony Keith Jr.

Foreign family.

This is your host, Derek, coming to you with a real quick editorial update.

I'll let you know that as you listen to this episode, you'll hear me refer to this podcast as Black Books Matter.

The podcast.

I end up changing the name to the Reader of Black Genius Podcast because I thought it spoke more to the inspiration and creativity that my guests received from the works that we'll be discussing in my interviews with them.

So although you're here, Black Books Matter, the podcast, those were the first few episodes, and I end up changing the name around episode three or four to the Reader of Black Genius Podcast.

So hope you guys enjoy it again.

Please share your feedback with me.

Look forward to hearing from you guys.

Peace.

Welcome, world.

I'm so excited you guys have stepped up and have decided to join us today for another episode of Black Books Matter the podcast.

I am your host, Derek Young, one of the co founders, co owners of Mahogany Books.

And on this episode, I have someone I've been super eager to get a chance to meet and talk to the Dr.

Tony Keith.

What's going on, man?

I'm fantastic, brother.

How you doing?

Put some respect on.

There you go.

Some respect on that name.

Yo, I've been, we're just, you know, as I was feeling around, trying to get text stuff together, we were just chatting and stuff.

But I just want to make sure I say this live on the mic as I said it to you this time earlier today and in other moments, just how impressed I am with you, how just excited I am to see what you're doing and the energy, the positive energy you are putting out into the world for people at your events, People are reading your books, people you're interacting with to receive.

And I'm just so thankful for that spirit, for that energy, because it's needed, especially today.

So I'm just so thankful to have you, brother.

I really appreciate that.

I really appreciate that.

I, I funny you mentioned that, because I feel like this moment is a very spiritual moment, right?

It feels very, yeah, there's an ancestral thing.

There's something going on here.

You know, I was at this event at Cesar Chavez Public Charter School not too long ago, right on Hay street, and doing an event for like their Black History Month programming.

And it was a brother there named Baba C and is a drummer and older, like Griot, you know what I mean?

Super dope, dude.

And he told me after he finished doing some drumming and he heard me, you know, share parts of my book.

He was like, brother, I'm gonna tell you something.

It was sort of, you know, something about wise elder speaking to you.

He's like, brother, you, you are griot.

You know, you agree on.

He was like this.

You know, it's, it's, it's in you.

Like it's not the thing.

And just to receive that.

Hold on one second.

Hey, dog, calm down.

I'm sorry.

He's literally like, has the zoomies for no reason.

Like, I hear the claws.

You hear it?

I'm just sort of like, yo, will you just sit down?

Chill out.

My bad, bro.

I'm sorry.

Podcast.

I have a dog.

Hey, we live.

Y'all pretend like I hear him running around, but I was like, he needs to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was like, oh, we might have to play that off as like some technical issue.

Have to kind of clear out the sound.

We'll figure out.

But let me before we jump too far into.

I want to give because I don't know why people wouldn't know you.

I feel like everyone should know you.

But I'm gonna give everyone a brief bio.

But then I definitely want to get into, you know, all this you're doing right now.

And then we're going to jump into, you know, how'd you get there today?

Right?

But I'm gonna try to give my best podcast radio voice, you know, Donnie Simpson.

I don't know if I'm gonna get there, but you know, that's what I'm working on.

I.

I am practicing this.

All right.

Tony Keefe Jr.

Is an award winning black American gay poet, spoken word artist, and hip hop educational leader from Washington D.C.

y'all.

My hometown.

Hey.

Or you can just call him an ed mc.

Yeah.

He is the author of how the Boogeyman Became a Poet, released this year.

February 7th.

February 6th, yeah.

2024.

And Knucklehead, which I'm excited about, which comes out winter 2025.

A winter poetry collection.

I'm sorry.

YA poetry collection, both published by Tegan Books at Harper Collins.

Shout out to them.

Yeah.

Tony Keefe is a multi year fellow of the D.C.

commission of Arts and Humanities.

He was featured at performances at John F.

Kennedy center for the Performing Arts, Washington National Cathedral, Historic Lincoln Theater.

Just it was down in Johannesburg, South Africa.

Joe Burg.

I've been to Tanzania.

I've traveled the continent, man.

Well, not the whole one, but yeah.

Man, this is awesome.

His poems has been a new book also that I think everyone should definitely check out.

Is has.

Is also found in the YA poetry collection Poemhood on Black.

Our Black Revival.

You guys should Definitely check that out as well.

And his piece Black man on Fire won first prize in the Tom Howard poetry contest.

Yeah, he is a PhD and I got doctor.

So, you know, as my wife likes to say, Dr.

Tony Keefe.

Yeah, right.

Dude, you just.

I gotta work on my bio, man.

Because that's just.

That's just.

That's awesome.

No, I'm saying, like, you know, I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but.

I can see you.

I can see you, like, trying to pieces together all the pieces, and I'm like, yo, that's the abbreviated version.

I don't know how to.

Yeah, no, that's.

That's.

That's what's up.

Like, you know, I don't like reading people's bios because I'm like, it's.

I want to talk about it more authentically.

But like, I said that the reason why I'm super excited.

I'll just say this and I.

I'll put a.

This will be the period on the bio introduction piece is because, again, what I've witnessed from you the first few times, and we've had you several times at Mahogany Books.

We had you at our poetry salon.

We've had two events with you.

I've just always been impressed, again, with your energy, your authenticity, and your willingness to speak about overcoming, which is something that as a writer, as a creator, as an artist, that I appreciate because I've read books and poems that have impacted me and helped me grow as a person.

It challenged me to deal with my mess.

And the fact that you're so willingly to go there authentically for young kids.

Right.

For kids that's in upper elementary, junior high, high school that are dealing with real life stuff that sometimes us parents want to act like it's not happening.

You're willing to go there, and I just really appreciate that.

So more than anything, you know, you're an artist.

That's about the people and it's about the kids.

Yes, man.

Which is what I really love, and I hope everyone takes that away.

So this is why I got Tony Keith Jr.

With us here today.

So what we're going to do is I want to start with where you are today.

I want to talk a little bit about what's going on with the book tour you're going.

You're doing.

I've seen you on TV interviews and we just talked about.

Dude, this past weekend was like maybe your first downtown.

We were talking about that.

Yeah, it's been a first of all, again, shout out.

I appreciate you so much.

Seriously, thank you for that wonderful affirmation.

I am wildly, like, I'm just obsessed with Mahogany books and all that y'all are doing.

And so.

And the fact that you're even building this platform to be more connected to community just, to me, just means a whole lot.

So thank you for that.

So I am currently on a tour, you know, and it's interesting to think about it this way, because I've always been a poet.

Well, people will learn this.

I've always been a poet and spoken word artist, but like a traveling one, you know, one who's sort of, like, on tour, stopping off at places has happened in the past, but that's just been like, oh, I get booked for a gig, right?

But what's happening right now is now that I have this book out, there's sort of this moment where those two worlds are colliding where, like, my life is sort of like a poet who.

A performer who would get booked to go to gigs and perform at colleges and universities also now has a book.

And then there's an audience for the book.

And so what happens is these worlds collided and it created this massive calendar.

And so for the month of February.

Oh, my God.

I think I've done, I think maybe over 20 different visits to different places, schools.

I've done satellite media tours that would have been arranged by my publicity team at HarperCollins.

I'm at a place in my life where I have a publicity team, right?

And that, for me, is what's interesting, because every day I Google myself.

I'm not making this up because I'm just curious what's going on out there about, right?

And I'll see a new article pop up or a new website or someone post a thing about my book.

And so there's also television, you know, appearances that are popping up on YouTube.

And so there's this.

I'm like, wow, I'm becoming a Googleable person.

And so where I am right now, I'm literally sitting in my office in Washington, DC.

I live in Southeast and Ward 7 in Marshall Heights, right, With my husband.

And I'm sitting in my office and I'm literally living my dream.

This is the truth.

Like, you're like, the world needs, like, I'm currently someone who's, like, living an actual dream right now.

And so it's a bit surreal.

I mean, that's the truth.

I'm signing books all the time.

And I know I would see people who also authors, like, on YouTube, signing books.

I'm like, oh, that's so cool.

I want a life like that.

I.

I have a life like that.

Like, it's a, you know, I mean, it's an interesting sort of moment.

So I'm in a state of surprise.

I'm in a state of joy and curiosity because I'm just kind of curious, like, where else might this career go, you know?

Yeah, man, that's awesome.

You know, and let's.

I've kept.

So you've been married for five.

Happily married, five, six years.

Right.

So we got to put that out there because that's a huge person's bio, you know, a great accomplishment again, you've finished dissertation, PhD, you got NMC is going on.

I mean, there's a lot that you have put in front of yourself to try to accomplish and that you're doing.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It's funny, people can't see this.

I don't know.

But I'm joining my hands together because the word that's been spinning around in my brain since the start of the year.

And I don't really get into like New Year's resolutions and stuff like that, but sometimes it's just language that pops in my brain.

And usually this is where poems come from.

But the word that continues to pop in my head is alignment.

Like alignment.

Like alignment.

Like, things are aligning.

There's an alignment happening.

And, you know, I'm actually going to pull it off my shelf again.

But every year, every year for the last maybe decade, I've read the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.

Right?

Yeah.

I'm fascinated by that book.

I think it's a cool, clever little tale about Lil Santiago trying to discover his personal legend.

And for me, I don't know what it is because it's not written by a black man, but this is a Brazilian author but wrote this story about this.

This young person who kid trying to just be in pursuit of their dream, right?

And like something about when.

When the universe.

When the stars align, the universe works in your favor or something.

And I've just been thinking about that.

I'm like, wow.

I'm like, my book is aligning with the poems, is aligning with my business.

Is it like all.

Like all of the themes?

You know, I'm married, I have a home, I have a little dog.

You know what I mean?

Like, all of the.

It's like all of the things are just aligning.

And so I think I'm sort of in that place right now of like, Tony, just how to make sure you stay in align, you know?

You know?

Yeah, that's awesome.

That's awesome.

So let's do this.

I want to have you read a little bit from your book again, how the Boogeyman Became a Poet.

Right.

I'm sure I'm saying that right.

Which is going to be and I forgot what month I put it.

It's going to be one of our book club.

It's a book club selection for us now.

It's going to be I think August or September, but I'm super excited about that.

But when I have you read a little bit about this, of course you can get this from this show's first sponsor, Mahogany Books.com just jump over to MahoganyBooks.com and order your copy of how the Boogeyman Became a Poet by talk by Dr.

Tony Keefe and we'll get it out to you in the next day.

So hey, what I'll do is for, for folks listening is I'm going to start at the beginning.

I think there's something to be there's I didn't event yesterday, Busboys and poets in Tacoma park and a sister that showed up to the event was like I love that you started the beginning with your birth story.

And so just for people to know, this book takes place in spring 1999 and ends in fall 2000 in the Washington D.C.

metro area.

And I'm writing in my 17 year old voice, but the book begins a bit with like a flashback of my birth story.

And so it starts spring 1999 and this entire book is written in verse.

So each poem is sort of structured like poems, although they're not individual poems, they're structured that way.

So there's a little bit of rhyming and fun.

So I just want to throw that out for people listening.

Like the way you hear this is the way that it's written on the page and this is available in the audiobook.

And so Libro fm all those spots like you can definitely grab the audiobook there.

And I self narrated it.

So.

All right, all right.

I came out in the world like this, bright and burning, a brilliant little black star weighing every bit of 7 pounds, 7 ounces measuring 19 1/2 inches long, cesarean cut right through Mars center smack dab in the middle of hot July on the 17th day in the year 1981.

I was carefully carved fresh from her flesh at a hospital on a military base in Freehold, New Jersey where Pop was training to be an airman.

Basic same way, same place, same space where my sister Tamu was born just 17 months before.

My whole body arrived on fire, flaming from the warmth of my mother's womb.

Medical records say I was an infant prone to ear infections that raised my internal temperature well beyond a boiling fever.

I was 3 when I bubbled over 102.7 degrees.

Fahrenheit made me tug at my lobes a little too hard for Ma's comfort.

Doctors put some tubes in there to help cool down the noise.

They fell out a few months later while I was dancing circles around my shadow.

Wound up scarring some tissue on one of my eardrums.

Now I be tripping on vertigo.

It's like the world be spinning around if I climb far too high and try to look too straight up toward the sky or stare too deep down beneath the earth's belly.

I was in eighth grade when the flames brought me scarlet fever spread these sensitive ass blood red bumps across my entire body, causing some pain to rise up in the middle of my chest.

Emergency room doctors said Ma brought me in just a few minutes before the infection punched its way into the second layer of my beating heart.

Legend has it my being here was a close call too.

Apparently Ma, 23, pregnant, unplanned with me, drove a four door powder grade Dodge Diplomat with tires that foolishly assumed the tread on their rubber wheels was deep enough to skate slick on smooth black ice during cold winter round rubber dummies didn't test themselves first crash.

Me and Ma, us, we slid like lava on concrete water.

Her belly becomes an inflated safety airbag bracing all my bouncing.

We both survive unscathed save for the 23 railroad stitches ma had stapled across her forehead.

I remain submerged, baked golden brown, birthed by scalding summer.

Ma always tells the story of our accident whenever she's explaining to other people why I am the way I am.

Her baby.

Funny, curious, clever, smiling, singing, dancing, joyful, carefree, bright, showy, a ball of colorful energy making life fun for us all.

She'll say to them while looking at me, something must have happened to him because that boy ain't been right since.

And then she'll chuckle with a sweet laugh that don't hurt.

Unlike last year when I turned 16 and Pop echoed Ma's tale with a gallon of sour sugar that still stings me in some place I don't yet have language for.

For real.

For real.

I'm far too afraid to discover what it might actually mean because whenever I think about what my father actually said, the boogeyman creeps out from some dark corner of my bedroom closet and I can't get any sleep at Night.

Read a little bit more.

And I should mention that in this book there are titles, but the titles are not.

Again, not of individual poems.

The title sort of serves as transitions.

And so this transition is called Pop had just gotten out of rehab again.

He called to wish me happy birthday after confirming that I was indeed being a good boy by reading my Bible I was not, and praying for my salvation every day I was not.

He goes first.

Corinthians 2, 9 says, Eyes have not seen, nor ears have heard, nor has it entered the heart of man.

The things which God has prepared for you.

I'm proud of you, son.

But as a baby you cried so dag on much.

I thought you were going to grow up to be a sissy or something.

As if something disguised what he actually said.

As if there was probable cause for concern about my safety.

As if I am not mirrored to his namesake.

As if there was reason to question my capacity to survive an attack from the source of saline I tasted on tears dripping from the tip of my tiny toddler tongue.

As if my sensor was too vulnerable and so I had to curl up into myself for comfort.

As if all my screaming and hollering triggered some insecurity he had about my density.

As if there was a layer of flesh and spirit I left lingering inside a MA 15 summers of gold.

As if no tissue was attached to vein, blood, bone, muscle, fat or skin, and therefore I was too soft and too sticky to withstand whatever hard stuff black men must make light of in order to feel strong enough to hold onto and hold up themselves.

As if there was trivial possibility of my power to protect my own peace during times of war.

As if I entered my physical existence with an unarmed and untrained military that was ill equipped and unprepared to battle beasts that prey on the bodies of little black boys who are unafraid to express how they really feel on the inside.

That's the first couple pages or chapters that we'll say through the snap ups.

Thank you, brother.

Thank you, brother.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

And there's a whole lot more that kind of goes into that.

But yeah, but I wanted.

Yeah began with the origin story, you know, and I specifically titled that very first title is called I came out like this.

And I did that on purpose because I want readers to know and people listening to know that, you know, not every gay person has the same kind of story.

Right.

One that typically, I think gets sort of assigned to a lot of us is that something happens to us, like someone hurt us Someone, you know, took advantage of us in some sexual way or abuse or.

That was not my story.

I literally.

I came out like.

I'm like, no, I enter the world exactly like this.

And I really.

I really wanted to play on that.

That moment for readers.

Like, no, no, no.

I came out right, like.

Like this.

This is the way my mom and them knew it.

You know, they.

They didn't know what to call.

It was something, you know, had something.

It's like, well, y'all, I'm gay.

You know, like this.

Right, Right.

So I'm glad you wrote.

You did read that chapter because we definitely want to get into the origin story of, like, where did.

So you're.

You're experiencing all the success now, but to get to this space is not a smooth road.

And that's sometimes what IG social media tells us, is that you showed up fully formed, ready to go.

Great diction, incredible writer.

You know, that's not how we normally get here.

Yeah.

So I do want to take a step back and go back to, I don't know, like, early on.

How do you want to start telling the story?

And I would love to get into.

For that, to lead into one of the first books that you want to recommend for us to help that really became impactful for you to move past that maybe first obstacle as a young person.

Wow, that's a very.

That's a.

That's a deep, loaded, kind of great question.

Right?

You know, I.

I did not know I was going to publish this book.

Like, seriously, I.

I did not know.

And I'm probably going to answer both questions at the same time.

I didn't know I was going to write a book like this until I read When I Was the Greatest by Jason Reynolds.

I was someone.

I was in my early 30s.

I was not reading books for pleasure, for leisure.

I was not someone who went to bookstores.

And I was not, you know, I'm an academic by trade, and so I was always reading, you know, academic literature because I had to write papers for school and class and, you know, I had a couple of poetry books and stuff, you know, but I wasn't someone who was, like, reading, and therefore I was.

I didn't think of myself as an author.

I didn't think that I could be possible until again, my best friend, my brother in the world, wrote When I was the greatest.

And I was like, wait a minute, there's a young adult.

Wait, I can be an adult and read books written for young people.

That did something for me.

It changed the way That I thought about writing and reading and literacy and books.

And so I just started to buy more young adult books, like in my home office right now.

You can't say now that I've got a library that there are more youth and children's books in here than any books meant for adults, right?

I just want to offer.

That was like, yo, first I needed to read something written by somebody who sort of looked like me, reminded me of myself, but as an adult, you know what I mean?

That's important.

You know, I was like, as an adult.

And so anyway, so when I read that, I was like, wait a minute.

There's a way to craft something that could be palatable for younger readers, but also be palatable for adults who might also read into young people's literature, right?

Like, that's the first thing that I want to say is, so once.

Once that happened, you know, the idea was bubbling for, yo, maybe Tony, you.

You could write a book.

But I didn't know that I could.

This is the thing.

I didn't.

I didn't know that I could because I don't have an mfa, you know, I'm not an academically trained writer.

People will learn when they read this book.

I've always been a poet.

I wrote my first poem when I was in third grade at Magani elementary in Southeast D.C.

it's now Eagle Academy, or I think a charter school.

And right on Willow Road.

And I remember, you know, my teacher in the book I write about this memory.

And the book I call.

I think I call the teacher Ms.

Light, or I always.

I name a lot of my favorite teachers at the hip hop characters in my book.

So it might have been Ms.

Light or Ms.

Latifah or somebody.

But I.

She stapled my poem.

It was called Seasons.

And it was really cheesy little poem.

Like all the leaves on the ground, Red, yellow, green and brown.

Something, something.

I don't know.

And she stapled it to the bulletin board out front of the class.

And for young people, you know, when your work gets on the, you know, the bulletin board or your parents or your fat put on the refrigerator, you know, it's like a big deal.

You know, It's a big deal.

And so, you know, I'm like, yeah, like poetry.

And then what also happened is that same teacher was like, yo, Tony, we're going to be doing an event for our principal.

Her name was Dr.

Joyce Jamison.

I remember that at our school.

She goes, and we would love for you to emcee the event right this Is important.

So in third grade, I am identified as a poet and an emcee, right?

Like the poet MC thing came early, right?

It came early.

I was already.

I got a picture in this book of me on stage emceeing an event at a school, right?

So education, poetry, emceeing have always sort of been in my wheelhouse.

And I grew up in a family who always told me that I had a thing with words.

This is the truth.

My grandfather, God rest his soul, Archie Dean Keith, owned a bar, owned a home in up on second in Jefferson Northwest, Had a barbershop up there, was my first barber.

But my grandfather called me Mr.

Guest speaker, right?

Like there was a thing, like, I was known as, like, this person.

And I write about this in this book is I was known as a man with the poems.

And so anyway, I offered that because I want folks to know that, like, I've always been a poet.

Like, I can.

I would write, like, to myself, maybe write poems for other people to cheer them up, and I would perform poems on stages.

But to put a book together was not something I envisioned until February 2020.

I'm at the University of South Carolina, Charlotte.

I mean, South Carolina, Charlotte, the University of South Carolina.

And with Jason Reynolds, we.

And Jay and after.

And we're visiting schools, and we're talking to students about our lives as, you know, creatives.

And I talk about my life as a poet on the stage, and he's talking about his life as an author on the page.

And Jason is a poet, but whatever.

And after every event we had, there was always a book signing for Jay, and he's got so many books.

And at one of these events, there's a book signing, and I'm just sitting at the table with Jason, and there's a long line of people.

And this black woman gets out of line, I'm assuming with her son, could have been an aunt and a nephew, could have been, I don't know, teacher.

It was an adult woman and a young black boy, you know, probably 13, 14.

And he comes up to me and he was like, yo, where's your book?

Because I always.

I really.

I was telling students about my life as a gay man.

Like, I talk about just me being me in public, right?

Does not do this unapologetically.

And he comes to me and he goes, where's your book?

Not you have one.

It's sort of like, yo, the one that you had.

Like, where is it?

And I told him that I didn't have one.

You know, like, I don't really publish books, but, you know, and I go back to my hotel room that night and I think so much about this boy, right?

And I'm like, you know, maybe he was trying to figure something out about himself, and maybe the woman who brought him knew that too.

Or maybe she needed a book.

Like, where's the book for her?

Where's the book for him?

Where's the book for me?

Where's the book that I needed?

That's when it became this moment of like, I have to write a book.

And now that I know I can write something that's palatable for young people, I think I know what I'm going to do.

And that's sort of kind of how the life of the book began.

And a little bit more to that story is I was defending my dissertation the year before, as you mentioned.

I'd studied people who embody hip hop and education and who are poets and spoken word artists and MCs, right.

And how they.

And what they do in schools and communities and learning and engagement.

And I won all these awards for my dissertation.

I was like, I'm going to write a young adult version of my dissertation.

I'm going to take this lengthy academic 200 page mess when I mess, because it's beautiful, but, you know, with words with 13 letters, and translate this into something palatable for younger people.

And within that turned into this memoir written in verse after a couple years of working with my agent.

And so there's more to that story, but I want to know.

That's the origin, y'all.

It began as a kid knowing that I had this.

People told me early that I had this thing, right?

And it wasn't until I saw someone who looked like me who did something that showed me how it was possible, Right?

That's what happened.

Because I did not know it was possible until I saw that.

I was like, oh, oh, I can.

I can do this.

Right?

But so I want to.

So I want to drill down further on that because as a young person writing poetry, you know, and learning what that is for the first time as a third grader, I think is what you said.

Yeah.

How did that continue to progress for you?

Like, what was the of words and I don't know, maybe reading at that time, what were you experiencing?

Like, just the whole culmination of all that coming together, you know?

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, yeah, I know how to answer that.

Yeah.

And so what winds up happening is, you know, clearly, at least the third grade, there's a poetry unit that at least That I can remember.

And this is the important thing about writing a memoir is I don't remember everything that happened, you know, back then.

But they're very distinct memories.

And so I had to craft stories around those memories.

So I had to craft a story around me, remembering that I wrote this poem, you know, anyway.

And so within this book, I write stories about, you know, my parents divorcing my father, getting addicted to crack cocaine and drugs and having to move around a lot as a kid and thinking that I'm gay, but not really knowing that I am, because I'm not really doing things and we are poor.

And so there was a lot going on in my world as a young person.

And what I would do is I would write.

I would sort of like.

It was like, reflective writing.

I had several.

I call them girlfriends, girl dash friends, because I didn't have a girlfriend anyway, who gifted me journals.

They were like, tony, we have diaries.

We write our feelings in diaries.

They gave me all these poetry journals, like, all these little just, you know, spiral notebooks and things just to write my feelings.

And what wound up happening is nights when I couldn't sleep as a kid, you know, 13, 14, you know, and I'm thinking about all this, and I got anxiety.

People are bullying me, and they calling me names, and it's a lot going on.

I would write sort of like creative.

Just expressions of what I was feeling, you know, they weren't intended to be poetry, to be beautiful or art for art's sake.

It was meant to just release.

Right?

I was the kind of kid, because I didn't have that kind of emotional intelligence.

Or maybe the language, you know, black boys, especially men in general, but black boys, you don't have emotions.

You know, we don't.

You don't have them.

There's not.

No.

You know what I mean?

Stop crying.

You know, all that.

And so I would never say out loud, like, oh, I'm sad, or I'm angry or I'm confused.

I would say, like, I feel like, you know, my foot is falling through a well in the middle of the desert.

You know, I mean, like, there would be some other way that I would need to make what I'm feeling make sense.

And so I would write that stuff down.

I would write down what I was feeling.

And somehow writing that down helped, right?

There was something about a release.

Like who?

Like, I got that out.

Like, I remember, you know, to this day, I still do this.

I still write poems to myself.

And that's.

We'll talk about the second book that I got coming out.

But, like, I still write poetry to myself in that same state when I'm feeling something and I don't quite know what it is, I would write poetry anyway.

So there are these poems that I wrote to myself that no one had ever seen before, right?

And so what's happening is, as I'm getting older, I'm writing poetry in secret, and then I'm also writing poetry in public, right?

There are these two things that are sort of happening, like my.

Because I'm experiencing this sort of duality of my world, I guess.

I don't know.

Right.

So I'm writing in two different spaces.

And so what happens is, you know, the poetry that I'm performing in public, you know, I'm getting really celebrated for that, right?

So, I mean, I did write in this book and I have hard copies of these poems that.

The handwritten hard poems I wrote.

I wrote a poem my senior year of high school and this was 1999, and I perform it on stage senior year, and people are clapping for me, right?

I had given people poems, you know, for Valentine's Day.

And, you know, so, like, I developed this identity as a poet.

In the book, I write like, you know, I was known as the man with the poems, but nobody knew about the poems that I was writing in secret.

This is the thing, right?

And so I was developing my life as a poet early, like a performance poet.

But the emotional stuff stayed suppressed, Stayed suppressed.

And so I was able to continue and just launch my career as a poet in high school and certainly in college.

I get involved in the poetry slam community throughout the D.C.

area.

And I get, you know, when I really poetry slam, more open mic.

I wasn't a slam poet.

Right.

I slammed a couple times, but more of an open mic, you know, crowd kind of person and really enjoying the audience.

And so I would write poetry because I knew I was going to perform it.

And so I developed that identity.

And so what wounds up happening is to kind of maybe close the loop a little bit is, you know, within this book, the poems that are included in here, the ones that I wrote in my childhood, the ones that nobody's seen before.

It was because that Same time in 2019, 2020, I got laid off from my job while I was working on my dissertation.

And I'm in therapy and my therapist says, tony, perhaps you need to unpack that box of poems that you said you've been lugging around since you were a kid.

The truth, the poems that I wrote as a kid that I kept.

Hidden.

I kept them.

I still have, like, I literally, I could, like I still have them and I kept them and.

But I never looked at them.

They just sort of stayed in a box in the back of my closet lid on.

It was almost like hoarding.

Right.

And so my therapist.

So I spent one weekend based on my therapist's suggestion, and I unpacked those poems and I learned a great deal about myself.

A couple things was one, just how, how sad I was, how like, how like actually angry I was.

Like, I was angry because I was being bullied a lot and I didn't know how to express that anger.

I mean, because I, I would fight.

Like I was.

I.

I would definitely fight.

Like I got in fist fights and stuff like that.

But like, but the anger still lived, you know, I mean, so I wrote angry poems.

But I remember I would rip the poems up and I cried while I read some of them.

Some of them I threw away.

And then I kept the ones that I think that just sort of.

They kind of kept me whole.

And so this is where the alignment comes in.

Because I was like, although I was writing these poems to myself and I'm performing these poems in public, the technique of using my voice to express myself was getting stronger.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Like, it was.

I'm like my voice on the page was getting super strong because I know what I'm hearing in my head.

I know how to get that on paper.

And then knowing my voice and then being able to hear it on the microphone, like there was an understanding about the power that lived in that.

It's all that went on.

All that went on?

Yeah.

I mean, dude, there's a.

There's so much in that.

I mean, I think the thing that I'm most caught by is some of the physical response to the emotion that you were feeling.

So like.

So the thing.

And I'm not a psychologist, right.

I'm just, I'm an introverted person.

I am very over analytical of myself and like some of the same things that you were experiencing as a CIS guy.

Right.

And this is the thing that I love that for, like we connect on is that identity thing.

Yes.

That.

You know, you talked about this, I think at our last event about the mask.

Right.

And I've always told people, like, I feel like black men walk around wearing a mask, trying to be performative.

Yes.

It's something that we aren't really.

Right.

Gotta be a tough guy, gotta be able to have no emotion, be athletic, you know, be great with the Ladies, what if you're none of that?

Like, none, like, literally.

What if you are none of that?

You're none of that.

And there's a lot of guys who are out in the world who are.

Who is like, none of that.

Yep.

And what I find refreshing or important and what I wanted to make sure we.

We unpacked and talk about this part of your origin story of you growing up is because I learned this later.

Right.

I.

I wrote poetry.

Maybe.

I would say maybe college years.

Right.

In the process.

Right.

But you were doing this younger.

Right.

And when you talked about just a few moments ago, you know, writing angry poems and then ripping it up, like what I found at least symbology there is the release in trying to get rid of that anger.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

Holding on to.

To the stuff that maybe made you feel whole.

Yep.

That could keep you somewhat sane.

Yes.

This madness you're going through, you're experiencing.

Yes.

And then.

But, you know, you still don't deal with it all the way.

Yeah.

So you have it as an adult man.

Yes.

Yeah.

There's so much there, and I think people who are listening.

I'm hoping you are picking up on some of this is that, you know, it's not about, like, we're all dealing with stuff.

Right.

And sometimes we don't tell or emote or share it with people.

But you have.

Even if you're not able to, finding some way.

And that's what I love about what you've done, finding some way to release that.

And you were using words, specifically the art of poetry, to deal with that emotion.

Yeah, yeah.

And shout out to.

You know, you mentioned in terms of, like, books during my development, you know, I'm really grateful again to my friend Tiffany and Ebony and Brandy.

These are all main characters in the book who, when I met them all in middle school, and they.

They also sort of knew that poetry was the jammu.

And they gifted me these books, but they also gifted me anthology of poetry by Langston Hughes.

Right.

And so I'm reading poetry written by Langston Hughes as a little black boy who's writing poems to himself.

And I'm reading how Langston uses rhythm and rhyme and, you know, imagery.

I'm doing the same thing with Nikki Giovanni.

They bought me, I think it was Blues for All the Changes and love poems.

But, like, I'm so I'm also reading poetry books written by black adult, you know, black writers.

I mean, and probably not even fully, like, processing my blackness with all of that, but, like, reading other people's work and seeing how they added rhythm, you know, I love that Langston, you know, added in the sounds of, like, drums and horns.

And I thought that was just super cool, you know?

And to now know black history, to know, like, yeah, well, he comes from the jazz and Harlem.

And that makes sense.

But, like, hearing that, I think also helped me sort of understand my voice in the poetic form, right.

And how that could take shape and, like, what it could sound like.

And so I was thinking about that when you mentioned, like, other books that were sort of around in that moment, I was like, yeah, I was definitely reading Langston Hughes.

You know, I was reading Langston Hughes.

I was reading Nikki Giovanni, Paul Laurence Dunbar, Countee Cullen.

And these were not books that were given to me in school.

Right.

Because the poetry that I wrote in school was the standard academic poetry.

And I remember one time I tried to get wildly creative.

I didn't write about this in.

Well, I write about it a little bit in this book.

But, you know, I graduated from Dubai High School in PG county, and I was the first in my family to go to college.

And so I was in the Talented and gifted program.

So I was tracked, you know, in some way.

But I was also just under.

Under prepared for college.

Like, I just.

Nobody.

My family had gone.

I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew I needed to take these AP courses because my counselor put me in them, and I was in AP English.

And I'm.

And I bet, oh, all my English teachers were just miserable.

Well, not all of them, but just this lady was just miserable.

And, you know, I remember we had to read, I think, Dante's Inferno, right?

Seven Layers of Hell.

There's a lot going on there.

And then there was sort of the assignment that we had was, now write your own version of this or something.

And I'm like, yo, I get to, like, write my own version of what man I put down.

I don't know.

I don't know what it was.

I don't remember anymore.

But I remember at least that it was fire.

Like, legit.

It was.

I'm getting busy on this joint.

F.

She gave me that paper back.

Like, this class is not about creative.

Like, no, you need to.

Yeah, yeah.

It was a very clear.

Like, this.

Your method of being creative with your writing is cute, but it's not good in the academic space.

So.

No.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, I got that.

And so.

And that's why, again, I think I kept the poetry sort of, like, so external, because within academic spaces, it was just, you know, it had to be Robert Frost or, you know, or, you know, Hamlet.

I mean, Shakespeare, you know.

And I was like, what?

I am really trying not to unpack that because I have, like, an entire soapbox right behind me right now of.

Yeah.

And what happens in moments like that of this woman?

I'm.

I'm assuming.

I don't want to make it the focus, but this is really kind of bothering me.

Like, yeah, yeah, there's what happens.

Because what happens in moments like that is.

And this is where the boogeyman metaphor really, really represents in this book is, you know, when you start hearing you right wrong.

You start hearing you speak wrong.

Because, again, I'm from D.C.

right?

So there's a diss that day.

Everybody, mother, father.

There's a legitimate natural way in which a lot of us in this area speak, and it's not the people.

Black people in Philly speak different than black people in Miami.

But, I mean, there's a natural way in which we are speaking in public and in private with each other.

And I remember, you know, teachers telling me, speak better.

Speak.

There's.

So I learned black rock is wrong.

You know what I mean?

Like, so I am internalizing racism as a kid.

I wouldn't have had that language then, right.

You know, I mean, I would write poems about how angry I felt about this teacher but not realizing that yo legit.

What was happening was this.

This lady.

This lady was literally.

She was telling me that I was wrong.

Like, you know, the.

My blackness was wrong, which is racist.

You know, I mean, and I had internalized that.

And the same thing was happening about, yo being gay is wrong.

Right.

You know, in a book I write about how, you know, we mentioned this thing about masculinity before and about how.

And I tell this memory of, you know, I was on a playground at recess, I think fifth or sixth grade.

And, you know, no one in my family, no one had ever taught me how to play basketball.

I'd never played basketball.

Like, I grew up in a family of mostly women, and I'm not saying women don't play basketball, but, like, nobody just.

I didn't have a hoop.

Like, I just.

I just didn't have it.

And so I'm at recess, and we about to play basketball, and this dude passes me the ball, and I don't know, like, what I'm doing.

I've seen people on tv, like, I don't know.

And, you know, they yell out double dribble.

And I mess up and I fall and I get bullied.

This dude pushes Me to the ground, calls me gay, tells me, sit my gay ass down.

Like.

And so I, and I'm like, I don't even know what not knowing how to play basketball has to do with being gay.

You know, I mean, that to me didn't even register in the moment as a kid.

But I learned that gay is wrong.

I was internalizing homophobia.

You see what I mean?

So, like, early on as a kid, I was developing fears of being myself.

This is what the boogeyman is all about, you know, I mean, I was just developing.

It was in turn, I was internalizing fear of just being me.

And so everything became a performance.

Let me code switch my language so that teachers know that I'm a good black boy and I can write and read and I can, you know, let me code switch.

I guess maybe what I'm thinking and feeling about certain boys so that people don't think that I'm, you know, like there was a right how you show.

Up and how you, how, how you represent.

Yeah.

Masculinity.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, as a defense mechanism.

Yeah.

As people are preying on what they perceive to be weak and wrong.

Yeah.

No, this is like I, again, I'm, I'm enjoying this conversation.

The whole world has my business, so I'm just like, I might as well.

Just go ahead, just share it.

So, so I want to do one thing before we hop, before we move forward in, in the timeline of, of your life.

So you mentioned a number of books there.

So I want to, I do want to make sure we, we highlight, uh, two of the, you know, three to five books that you reckon that have been impactful for your life.

So I don't know if the first one, When I was the Greatest, is one of the books you chose, but I do want you to at least highlight two titles that has been that were really impactful on you for becoming who you are today.

If they were really impactful for you as a younger person, that would be great because it fit for that time of your life.

And then why.

And then we're going to jump to a little.

To a 20, 30 year old Tony.

And talk about this is good enough.

You know, I guess if I'm going, yeah, I'll probably go back to.

Yeah, the books I mentioned earlier.

If there wasn't a book that, you know, like, as a young person, it would definitely be where is it?

Because I know it's on my shelf, but it would be like the collection of like the Langston Hughes collection.

Like the collection, the Collective Works.

Where is it?

Yeah, I usually know where all my books are, but, yeah, the Collective Works by Langston Hughes.

And it's just because I didn't really have such a strong relationship with literature as a kid, you know, I mean, and so it's a different one.

I'm sort of like, yo, I wasn't really invested in reading.

Right.

And that's okay.

I mean, it just has been something that, like.

So for me, when I think about the overcoming portion, like, I didn't read it until I was like.

I think 19, but, like, revolutionary Suicide by Huey P.

Newton.

Okay.

But it was.

For me, it helped me to clarify that it was okay to be.

To not to be.

Like.

So I was dealing with this issue of.

Of living through the time when Pac and Big were murdered and those being my idols.

Yeah.

And seeing that two young black men murdered at a very young age, and knowing that's not who I am, that's not where I want to go.

And then reading a book about Huey Newton, talking about what you live for.

Right.

Being.

Giving your life for something of impact and importance.

Yeah.

Right.

So it helped to rectify or to.

To give clarity, to give words to, you know, this.

This thought that I had that, you know, well, everyone needs to be a thug.

Everyone needs to be.

This will be that.

Yeah.

Actually live for something else.

Yeah.

Right.

So it helped to, like something I read later.

Yeah.

Help to change and give better meaning to a youthful understanding of something I had.

So that.

So I think that's kind of the example I'm talking about.

So.

I mean, you might have read it when you were younger.

Yeah, that's the thing.

I'm glad you said this because, I mean, I think there's so much to be said about, again, the relationship that I had with literature.

You know, this is the truth is it was only in an academic sense.

And if it wasn't, it was poetry.

Books.

Books.

Okay.

You know, it was books of poetry.

So.

Yeah.

Nikki Giovanni, Blues for all the changes.

Like I said, the Langston, you know, the collective poems of Langston Hughes.

But like those.

Those poetry books that were out in the, you know, 90s, maybe even early kind of 2000s, you know, but I was more fascinated with the spoken word, man.

You know, I'm looking at HBO's, that poetry jam.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I'm looking at, you know, Jessica Care Moore and, you know, Talam AC and, you know, Saul Williams and both see, you know, I mean, like, I'm looking at, you know, hell, even Jill Scott you know, Lauryn Hill.

So I'm looking at these.

These.

These poetry.

These poetry performers, right?

These rappers, right?

Spitting poems, you know, I mean, you know, even Tupac rose A Group of Concrete.

I think that.

I don't even know that was out yet.

But, like, you know, it was.

For me, it was the.

It was the books of poetry, like, coming of age, you know, kind of things.

I didn't get into that kind of literature, honestly.

Yo, Shout out to Darnell Moore.

No Ashes in the Fire.

I loved that book very, very much.

But again, I read that as an adult, but, you know, to read a memoir written by black gay man, very relatable, like, in age.

And it's so honest.

It's not written in verse.

But, like, I was like, oh, wow, this is great.

Of course, Ta.

Nehisi Coates, you know, between the World and Me.

But I really got into literature around, like, that time when those books about black man life and, you know, was prominent.

And then when Darnell Morgan did his, I was like, oh, yeah, that's.

It's a gay black man.

Like, oh, wow.

You know, and I do remember in college, Elin Harris was writing a whole bunch of books, and I think James Earl Hardy, you know, B Boy Blues.

I remember reading some of those books in.

In college, but not making, like, a whole lot of connections.

Again, I just wasn't connected to literature in a way than I am now.

You know, I wasn't.

At least books.

I just wasn't.

I didn't.

I didn't have a lot.

You know, I just wasn't that connected.

Now.

I'm glad you mentioned the poems, because for me, poetry was, you know, and we need to be honest about it.

Like comics.

Poetry is a form of literature.

Yes.

Right.

And we should not, like, act like it's not or try to dumb it down like, oh, you know, that's not real reading.

That is real reading.

Yes.

That is emotion.

That is talent.

That is skill.

That's being put onto the paper.

That is someone's imagination, someone's abstract feeling that they are figuring out a way to piece together and put on the paper to evoke emotion.

I want to tell their real story, but to evoke emotion.

Yes.

The reader.

Right.

And I recall my first introduction to Saul Williams when I was in college, and I saw the film Slam like.

Amethyst rocks in D.C.

jail courtyard MO.

Like, he.

Oh, my.

You don't understand.

Like, I thought.

That's when I thought I was gonna be a poet.

Like, I really.

I got some stuff sitting up in there, too.

You know, I never wrote my wife a little poetry love collection stuff.

I thought I was gonna be a poet because of Williams and learning how to talk through your feelings and emotions.

Yes.

In those type of words, those short spurts to kind of get at it really quick and let that thing out that you needed to and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love the Seventh Octave is one of my favorite books.

Gil Scott Heron.

I forget the name of it.

So far, so Good is one of my favorite poetry books.

And then Pamela Sneed.

Oh, my God.

Something about the sledgehammer, that book.

See what I mean?

It's the.

It's the.

It's a.

Yeah.

So for me, it was that.

And so for me, the.

The spoken word was text.

For me, it's almost like, you know, the open mic scene was like a library, you know, I mean, I could kind of choose, you know, what I'm gonna read, you know, depending on who's getting on stage.

You know, I mean, but there was something about, like, that's how I was absorbing literacy and literature was through the spoken word, you know, I mean, that.

Yeah.

That relationship with Paige, stuff outside of poetry collections, I wasn't reading novels, I wasn't reading biographies.

I wasn't reading.

I wouldn't read anything.

I was listening to a lot of music.

You know, I am, you know, someone who absolutely grew up in, you know, late 80s, early 90s, hip hop kind of, you know, so I have a strong relationship with the hip hop culture.

Right.

And of course, hip hop culture's music being rap music and certain MCs, who, I think clearly are poets.

Right.

So I'm around Lauryn Hill and, you know, and I'm reading, you know, their lyrics on the.

On the album.

You know what I mean?

And seeing how they're structured in verse.

Right.

How they structure this poem, you know, like.

And also.

Anyway, so my text came differently.

It came from the spoken word, it came from music.

You know, I was absorbing literacy in a different kind of way.

Yeah.

Now, when you just said that, what it made me think of was, so we're near the same age.

I didn't realize.

So you're just one.

My.

My little sister.

She hates my car.

My little sister, I was born in 1980.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

My sister was as well.

Yeah.

So it was so, you know, and it trips me out when I'm thinking like, you know, this woman now, you know, in her 40s, and when I say little sister, she's like, she.

She has a visual.

You are my little sister.

You Know, I don't know what you want me to say.

Yeah.

43 years of my life, right.

Like, that you was my little sister.

But yeah, so.

So we're of that same age.

And the thing that, you know, you made me think of was when you talked about reading the lyrics is opening up the cassette, folding out.

It was a big deal.

The thing.

And reading.

Yes.

The lyrics.

Yes.

To your favorite songs.

Yes.

Right.

Impact was that.

Yeah.

It's literacy.

You're absorbing.

It's, it's.

It's lyrics.

You're.

You're reading.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you are reading, you know.

I mean, you are absorbing, you know.

Yeah.

For me, I would just sort of watch the ways in which they would rhyme and, you know, I mean, Jadakiss and, you know, I'm just sort of like, yo, the.

Right.

Oh, I like the rhyme, you know, I mean, it's like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's.

It's.

I.

I have one quick short story because it was such impacted me and I definitely want to jump to the next phase of your life here to really kind of put a button on this idea about hip hop is poetry, right?

We.

We need to make that connection, and we need to respect it as such as an art form.

Right.

There's a WWE type of formative nature to it.

Right.

But there's also artists who really go after the work as an art form to release their inner stuff.

Right.

But to also connect with other people.

Yeah.

And there was a song in my first apartment after I graduated.

Me and my homeboy sitting in the.

In the.

In my living room, and we were listening to Jay Z's the Rock Familiar.

It was a compilation he did with a whole bunch of his artists.

And I forget the.

The.

The name of the other actual album, but I got a bootleg, I'm not gonna lie.

But there was a song he talked about his dad.

Right.

Like his father not being there.

Yeah.

And this was one of.

There was.

There are a few songs like that that Jay Z has that he gets really, really personal and really emotional, you know, in his music.

And, you know, me and my boy were sitting there, like, just vibing out, and I look over to him and he is in it.

Yep.

Because he's thinking about his dad who wasn't there.

Right.

And I always, you know, understood how music impacted me.

But to sit there with, you know, my best friend who's as close to her brother as I'm gonna get.

Right.

Like, he's my homeboy now.

Yeah.

Right.

To see that Moment.

See how that music was impacting him.

Those words that po.

That poem put to a beat.

Right.

Again, evoking this thing and helping people process.

Yes.

What's their.

Their life, what they're dealing with, you know?

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I remember being a kid hearing Tupac's Brenda had a baby.

And, you know, I mean, just this.

The emotional story that Tupac is telling.

And people will definitely make arguments like, well, Brenda should have told that story.

And there's a way I will not argue against, you know, folks making that.

But I'm like.

Like, for me as a kid hearing that and then seeing the video, and I'm like, wow, Tupac is telling this very serious story about this girl, you know, Brenda and the baby and, oh, my gosh, she had a baby on the bathroom floor.

And, you know, I mean, but just like the way that I would listen to hip hop artists tell these stories, and they were.

They were storytelling ice cubes.

Today was a good day, I think was the first rap I ever learned all the words to.

You know what I mean?

I think it was the first one.

Every single word to that rap, because I was like, oh, my God, today was a good day.

Just waking up, you know, I mean, but like, just the storytelling of it all.

And again, when you think about poems, you think about stories, but the.

The literacy involved in hip hop music.

And to be clear, I.

I make sure I always make this distinguished when I talk about hip hop because I'm like, yo, I'm a black gay man and I'm hip hop all day, but I'm not a rapper.

And this is what's really important, because usually people say that people like me should not exist in hip hop.

Right?

At least in the traditional kind of context.

Right?

I'm like, yo, but here's the deal.

I wore baggy jeans and Timberland boots.

I said, what's up?

And fly.

I'm dancing to Roger Rabbit and a cabbage patch.

I'm absorbing hip hop culture.

Right?

Right.

Culture.

Hip hop culture is about peace, love, unity, having fun.

Ain't got nothing to do with hurting nobody.

Ain't got nothing to do with custom.

You know what I mean?

We know mainstream blah, blah and records and who runs the media and blah, blah.

But I'm like, yo, I still am hip hop all day and gay, right?

And that.

That's.

And that's also helped with my literacy.

It's also helped with my performance.

Right.

One for hip hop.

I wouldn't.

I don't know if I'd be Able to be all, like, bragadocia on stage, you know, about, like the.

The swag, the.

You know, the confidence that comes with hip hop, you know?

And so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Awesome, awesome.

So let's.

Let's Skip ahead.

Your 20s, 30s.

Let's go wherever the spirit leads you to make that connection between, you know, as a kid, finding that love for poetry, find a level for spoken word, reading it, performing it, writing it.

And I want to connect the dots to where you are today, right, as a doctor educator.

Right?

Yeah.

The dot.

Yeah, yeah.

The dot that connects in the middle is I became an educator.

Right?

And so this is where sort of poetry education, hip hop, insane, like, where all of that sort of kind of fits, right?

And so what happens is I graduate college.

My degree is in communication studies, and I don't even really know kind of what that means.

If I were to do this again, I would have majored in African American literature.

This is the truth.

I'm serious.

I think about this all the time.

Like, I'm like, I would have majored in the thing that I wanted to know more about as opposed to the thing that I just kind of got advised to go into.

You know, I mean, it was.

I wasn't doing.

I was trying to major in business, trying to major in economics.

It just.

My advisor was like, you've been taking a lot of communication courses.

Public, you know, public relations, public speaking.

Like, just stay in that.

Right.

Anyway, so I land, like, my.

I start working my first, you know, several years out of college at a nonprofit youth development in downtown D.C.

i'm, like, running, you know, writing news articles about what's happening on behalf of kids and families around the country.

And, you know, it's nonprofit work.

And then I get recruited to go to Penn State University for.

To get my master's degree and in education program that I was recruited to be a part of was in college student development.

And this is the good thing here is, you know, in 2005 is when I got into this program, I had a master's degree in understanding the way college students develop in higher education, but specifically the ways in which black and brown marginalize the gay, the poor, like the other students develop in college.

And so because I was a student who, if it weren't for cultural centers at predominantly white institutions, if it weren't for open mics, if it weren't for African American studies departments, if it weren't for these specific kinds of people on campus who knew how to engage students, they would not have survived undergrad and so I acknowledge a lot of those people in my book.

And so I developed this career working in higher education.

I get a master's degree in and higher education focus on college student development.

And I start running cultural programs on college campuses.

So I'm now running open mics at like Penn State University, University of North Carolina, Charlotte.

I'm working in a multicultural student services center.

I am teaching in African American studies courses on like racism and sexism.

But I'm becoming at the time, and this is like mid 2000s, early mid 2000s, before the language DEI was available, it was like multicultural administration or cultural competency or diversity.

I was, I was becoming that person early in my career, right?

And at the same time was always a poet.

This is important.

Every workplace that I've ever been to, I always bought the poetry with me.

It was never a side hustle.

I always brought it with me.

But it was never like the full time role.

But it was always like everybody always knew I was a poet.

So if I'm working at a college or university, I'm going to figure out how we run an open mic where the students on campus, how are we going to.

And so much of my career as an educator started in higher education.

I've never been a classroom teacher in the traditional sense.

I've never ever taught in a K through 12 setting as like a teacher.

I've never been certified as a teacher now.

So I'm working in higher education for quite a bit, do some really fun stuff.

I'm learning about diversity and you know, inclusion and all that kind of language.

And you know, I'm, you know, in late 20s and I moved back to Washington D.C.

and I start working for college prep programs because I was like, well, I got this master's degree in college student development.

I've worked in cultural centers.

I know how students develop in college.

Maybe if I go back to my hometown and work with students who might not be as prepared for college, I know how they might develop, I know what they might be in store for.

Let me set up something for them.

And so I started running college prep programs for kids in D.C.

public high schools.

After school programs, tutoring programs, college prep institutes.

I'm working in partnership with D.C.

public high schools and DCPS and doing stuff at the state Superintendent for education's office.

But my work as an educator was always community based.

It was always again, some nonprofit, some youth development organization.

It was never a traditional school setting.

And so I ran with that.

And so for years and years I was just an educator.

In the community based space.

And that I think is probably the thing that would kind of connect the dot.

And so what happens is in about 2015, I had been running a college prep program for D.C.

public High School students at Washington National Cathedral for about three years at the time.

And I had all these questions about, you know, I got students in my program that live all in Southeast D.C.

and they're commuting every morning in the summer all the way to Uptown Northwest, right?

That's the X2, whatever the.

But like.

And they, and they're committed to doing this every single day for this program that I'm running in the summer.

And all of them, all of them, most of them said, I don't like school, though.

And I'm like, wait a minute, you don't like school?

Like coming here to this thing.

And I'm trying to figure out what is it about the conditions that I'm creating, you know, I mean, that are different, there's whatever.

Than the conditions that are happening within schools, right?

Began to have this questions around conditions of education, right?

Conditions where students are learning and engaging.

That's what led me to entering into a PhD program in education leadership.

Because that's leadership question conditions, right?

What's going on in the space where teaching and learning is happening?

How are we massaging this about what are we doing?

And so that is kind of what led into like all of this stuff.

So at the time I'm working on my PhD, I'm trying to figure out, what's this spoken word poetry thing, what's this education thing?

How does this help students learn and engage?

And so that's where all the dots connected.

I'm an educator, right?

So poetry, education and then the book, you know, I mean, so all.

And so the cool thing is when you read this book, when people read this book, I believe that now that, you know, this folks will probably be able to read like, oh, you know, I've embedded academic knowledge in this book in a way.

So I write about African American vernacular English, which is something I learned a great deal about in my PhD program, right?

A lot about certain elements of black history that I didn't necessarily.

Anyway, so in this hip hop pedagogy embedded in this book, like, I thought about folks who I'm like, oh yeah, I know a bunch of teachers out there who are embodying hip hop in their way of being in education.

They teach this book.

They'll be able to see this one line and be like, yo, that came from, you know, blah, blah, there's a line in the book where I talk about, you know, I woke up in the morning and mom made breakfast, but there was no bacon.

And I think ice cube.

Today was a good day.

Morning, breakfast, no harm.

You know what I mean?

And so, and so that's how it all sort of aligned for me was like, I can take this.

I know myself as an educator.

I know what books, I know how to curriculum, I know conditions.

And so all of that fit together.

Which is also what led me to creating my company at MC Academy.

Right.

Like that.

All of that kind of fits together.

But that was a long answer to your question, I think.

But I think the dot that connected it, it's, it's.

And I'm an educator.

I'm an educator and an mc.

I'm an nmc.

That is the perfect answer.

And that's what I was really wanting to get is that, you know, again, we ha.

Again people in this, the world we live in right now, everything is like instant.

Right.

The way that we see, we snap these pictures on social media, we see these interviews or we listen to these interviews, we read some of these articles and it doesn't really talk about the back end of it.

Right.

It doesn't necessarily talk about the obstacles that one had to overcome in building their confidence.

Yeah, yeah.

Finding the, the low hanging fruit to say, hey, I can do this, I can do that.

That leads them to these moments.

Yeah, yeah.

But that's the, that's the thread, you know, I'm hoping that we can consistently talk about on this platform.

Yes.

To help people see where you started.

Does not matter.

Yep.

Right.

More than likely most people who are successful started with a number of disadvantages.

Oh, yeah.

And us as black folk especially, you know, we should take pride in that heritage because it doesn't mean that we're victims.

It doesn't mean that we're less than.

It means that we are actually triumphant and that we overcome.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Something I think about.

Go ahead, brother, go ahead.

No, so, and, and for us specifically, how do books or words.

Right.

Play a part in that?

To, to help support and reinforce that growth and development.

To get to this point where now like, yo, I want to be like Tony Keith Jr.

Right.

And you're like, bro, understand how I got here.

Yeah.

And what I overcame.

Right.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

I love that there's, there's a lot that I can sort of probably try to unpack.

Just in, just in general, just your response to that question, I think so much about, like, you know.

It'S it's.

Easy to say, like, got a degree, did that, you know, boom, boom, boom.

Takes more time to talk about like, yo, in order for me to apply for a program, you know what I mean?

But like all the, you know.

And so here's the thing, something I've learned about is, you know, I was with a group of students.

Phelps High School was asking me, I have a poem called Starving Artists.

Oh, you said Phelps?

Yeah, I gotta shout it out.

That's my dad's alma mater, so I guess he's D.C.

native.

That's again, we homeboys.

I'm trying to, you know, you know, I.

I love my, I love my city.

Yeah.

Family is all through it, but definitely want to point that out.

I was telling students about that.

I mean, I was telling them about like how, you know, when I started writing the book and how I got laid off from my full time job.

And then the pandemic hit and the only way that I could figure out how to survive was on art and my research because I'm dissertating and I'm right.

And so that's when I started applying for fellowships.

This is probably an important part about this, right?

And I think I need to start making sure that I implement this nugget when I answer, because people have asked me similar kind of questions is, you know, I started applying for fellowships and art, arts and humanities fellowships, and I learned about them because I knew other people that had gotten them.

But, you know, but learning how to apply for things was really instrumental in how I got to where I am becoming unafraid to apply.

Right?

Like that's the real thing.

To submit an application for a thing that you might not be sure that you can get and to be adamant about it, right?

So, you know, I can probably tell the whole story about like how, you know, to get my book published.

I queried or I sort of reached out to 13 different literary agents, you know, I mean, like, like 13 different people, you know, I mean, like there was so much work involved in that.

But like that comes from.

I started applying for all these grants because I was like, I got to make money, I got to get money.

How do I make money?

I don't have, you know, I can't really like sell a poem.

I mean, I can, but like that's not going to do anything.

I need like large sums of cash.

You know, mortgage.

You know, I mean.

And so there was something to be said about like once I started learning how to apply, how to find resources that would supplement my income While I worked on my art.

That really changed the game, especially once I started to win the award.

Yeah, you know, I mean, I remember one of the first grants I got from D.C.

commission Arts and Humanities was, I think 2017 or 2018.

I didn't even get the, like, first of all, I didn't even get the grant.

Like, I wasn't even awarded it the grant.

Right.

But at the end of the fiscal year, D.C.

was like, oh, we have a surplus.

And so therefore, here's $2,500.

Like, I just get.

I was just given 25 grant because there was a surplus.

And I was always heard there's always money out there.

That to me, proved that.

There's always the fact that there's extra.

Right.

That you could just get.

Even though I didn't even get the grant.

Right.

Change my whole perspective.

And for me, following the alchemist, when the stars align the universe, you know, when the universe aligns and starts aligning your favor.

For me, that was a star trying to align like, yo, you didn't get the grant, but you are definitely worthy of getting this thing.

Right?

And so what wound up happening is I'm applying.

You know, I'm like, okay, I'm going to take this money, I'm going to build my social media presence, I'm going to put together a website, I'm going to.

I'm going to use this funding to support my platform, right?

And then I'm apply for the funding again and again.

And that's what happened.

I kind of kept applying and then I became a reviewer for the grants.

Right.

Then I began to see, like, well, on the back end.

Oh, this is what it's like when people receive a grant from somebody like me, Right.

Like, this is how they make decisions about, oh, okay, now that I know the back end and I know how to do the front end.

Oh, we getting busy, Mo.

And so that went down is I just kind of was like, no, the more.

The more applications I submitted, the more language I had so I could copy and paste and modify and edit and adjust.

And so my point is, like, in order for me to really get here, there had to be an actual investment, not only in myself, but I need an investment from my hometown.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I mean, that's the truth.

I needed.

I needed that.

I needed the grants from the city.

I needed D.C.

to, you know, I needed that.

That is the absolute truth.

There's no other way.

You know, I mean, when you get like a.

You know, I think the large and I be because this is all public money.

I think the largest grand amount I got was $11,000.

Imagine what that does when someone who's an artist gets that much money at one time.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, to be like, yo, I can take care of rent for, you know, or I can take, you know, you know, whatever for this amount of time.

Like, I can breathe.

And while I'm breathing, I can work on my poems, I can work on my book.

I can engage in the art, you know, I mean, and that was really helpful.

So I just want to say that that's a very important part of my story, is these things weren't just, like, handed to me, you know, I mean, but there's a.

There was an application process for all of it to get a literary agent to meet with publishers to.

There's a lot.

And you need stamina for something like that, right?

Stamina, resilience.

Yes.

Ready to self to take criticism.

Yes.

Yes.

Not to internalize it.

Yes.

But figure out how to progress from it, how to get better.

Yes.

And that's what academia did for me.

Academia taught me how to take critique.

You know, I mean, like, I have a whole PhD, which means I know something more than other people do in the world.

That's kind of what you usually.

Right.

Which means you can't argue me down, you know, I mean, like, I know more about my research than you do.

And so having a dissertation, like a committee.

Right.

Speaking and reviewing and.

But being able to like, just sort of take those critiques, like, all right, so this lens or this angle doesn't quite fit, you know, and so, like, being able to, like, develop super, super thick skin is very, very helpful.

And again, stamina, something that the world might not know that I do or I have done for the last 10 years, off and on, I've been taking a West African dance fitness class called Assa Asa with apostrophe.

And this class, one hour long, high intent, like, high impact African dance fitness.

So you're.

You are doing squats, but you're also, like, winding your waist.

It is.

And I'm usually the only guy in that class.

And what I love about that class, and this is where I'm going to go about Samin, is I learned how to mentally push myself.

Right.

Because in that class, there used to be sometimes it might still be, you know, moments of like, I ain't gonna be able to.

I can't.

I'm not.

You know, there's something that's like, I can't.

I will not be able To.

I'm unable to.

And that mental talk begins to affect the way my body responds.

And it's like, well, if I keep telling myself I'm tired, my body is going to react tired.

And so the reason why I offer that is like, when it comes down to, like having to write a book, when it comes, you know, it requires stamina, meaning you gotta be able to tell yourself that you can push through.

And so something I've also been able to learn to do is just like, learn to push through.

So look, therapy, African dance classes, applying for grants and scholarships.

You know, I mean, like this, all of that got had to go into me getting here.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And then the 13 queries going out to the literary agents and everyone's going to respond positively, but figuring out how to keep going, how to overcome that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, and I acquired a literary agent in two months, which apparently is unheard of, especially for someone without a writing background or is known as a.

That's just a very.

It's a, it's unusual.

It's unprecedented to some degree.

Right.

And then they get a book deal with, you know, one of the big five major publishing companies, where HarperCollins is even a whole other.

And it was a two book deal.

Right.

Significant two book deal.

I mean, it's just, it's just like an unheard of kind of.

And I'm like, but I work for it, damn it.

Like, I, you know, I mean, like, I went hard, I didn't play no games.

Right, Right.

There's the preparation and the piece I wanted.

I want to make sure we touch on.

I don't think we did, but we were having this conversation behind the scenes, quote unquote, of this platform in the green room is the, again, the iron sharpens, iron aspect of, of who you.

And you mentioned them earlier, but who you associate with other writers in the city, y'all.

And I'm telling you, DC Full of it is rich, rich literary talent.

Yes.

The bookstores that are here, not just Mahogany Books, but the other bookstores that are here, the spaces, the culture, the writers that contribute to that, to this ecosystem.

Right.

That show up and share and give is fantastic.

And you are connected to that.

So I, I do want to make sure we.

We touch briefly on that because that's a part of, again, learning and overcoming and being prepared for getting you to this place where you are now.

Yeah, you got to find your tribe.

I was telling this to some folks last night, like, there's something about.

Yo, you got to find your tribe, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I'm connected to so many black poets, writers, visual artists in Washington D.C.

and of course, like the surrounding area and we all know each other all within one degree of separation, two degree separation.

And there's something like, yo, I have a.

There's a community.

There's something to be said about like, yo, you, you need the stamina.

Of course, all other kinds of stuff.

But you got to find, yeah, you got to find your tribe.

And you might already have a tribe.

Right.

You know, I mean, but like, you gotta be able to like, like find them and like stick, stick tight with them, build each other up.

You know, I tell folks like, I'm so fortunate to be surrounded by battery packs, man, people charge me, you know, I mean, believe it or not, I'm actually, although I'm very extroverted in public because I need to be.

Is a professional performer as a, you know, But I charge my batteries solo.

Yeah.

I like being alone, you know, I mean, like.

Well, yeah, you know, I mean, but like, that's where I, I charge up the most.

But also I charge my batteries.

I'm around certain people, you know, I mean, and it's the same.

True that.

My point is there's no draining of each other, right?

To me is like, how always know my, my, my, my tribe because I'm like, yo, when I'm around Rashid Copeland, my battery charge when I'm around Jason Rose, my battery charge when I'm around Alexa Patrick, my battery charger when I'm around, you know, I mean, like they're battery chargers.

And I think that that's what's required, you know, I mean that s of belongings.

I'm like, I don't drain me.

You know, I mean, like, let's Voltron up.

You know what I mean?

I love talking to someone around my age because, you know, you dropping these, these joints that I love.

Huge Voltron fan.

Yeah, yeah.

Voltron up.

Power up.

Imagine collective, that force that we are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this, and this is important.

I just want to make sure I just put a pin in this because I think it doesn't matter whether you're a writer or an artist.

That is important wherever you are.

Right?

Right.

If you're a stay at home mom or stay at home dad.

Right.

If you were a student right now.

Right.

Think about my kid down at VCU right now.

Right.

Who are you connected to?

Yeah.

Right.

Who is empowering you, supporting you, being your base so that you never get too low.

Yeah.

When you do Fall and your peeps, your parents aren't there, who's there to catch you and say, hey, we got you.

Let's get back up.

Let's keep moving forward?

Yeah.

And I think that something's really cool about a college environment.

And this is not the case across all colleges, but at least in my experience.

Right.

Is there usually is always a club for somebody.

You know what I mean?

It just does require, of course, like, you taking some initiative to, like, go to a meeting.

But I mean, there's always a.

For me, because I attended predominantly white institutions for the most part.

I did go to Morgan State my first year of college, but the rest of my academic career has all been at PWIs.

And in each of those spaces, it's always because I'm connected with the black people there.

It's the truth.

It's like, I find the black Cultural center.

I find that, you know, I mean, I find where my people are.

Yeah.

And that's my belonging.

You know, I mean, and I.

And I live in that space.

But there's something about, like, yo, find your people.

There's always a poetry club.

There's a bsu.

There's a.

You know, but again, at hbcu, there's probably an even smaller club.

There's probably like, oh, it's a group of writers, a group of, you know, I mean, skateboarders.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, you know, graphic artists, like, whatever.

But, you know, but there's communities, and it's a matter, you know, it's a matter of just like, figure out where they are and just going to be.

To join them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Put yourself out there.

So.

So.

So we're nearing the end of the conversation.

All right, man.

Oh, yeah.

This has been incredible.

Fantastic.

I hope everyone out there is enjoying this as much as I am.

The last two things I want to touch on.

So I was doing some research.

So again, like I said, I'm trying to become a better interviewer, Right.

Everything about me this year is trying to become better at, you know, being an entrepreneur, stepping out of my comfort zone, doing things that are new to me.

And again, not taking.

Not internalizing critique, but finding a way to become better through it.

Right.

And so I'm doing some research on you, right?

I'm listening.

I'm folding clothes, listening to YouTube talks that you're doing, your.

Your.

Your trailers.

I'm listening to that you're doing.

And.

And one of them.

I.

I didn't write down what video it was, but you said the quote.

I have Here is, what truth are you afraid of in your writing?

And, like, I hit pause on my remote real quick.

I said, hey, let me write this down.

I want you to just touch on that.

Yeah, real quick.

Yeah.

Truth in your writing.

So the way that I can probably best explain that is I.

I go to my writing to answer questions.

I go to poetry, usually specifically, but, like, I go to my.

So by that, I.

If I'm trying to figure out, you know, maybe why I'm having difficulty with my partner, my husband.

Right.

I can't Google that.

You know what I mean?

Like, I've got to find a way to get an answer to that question that doesn't necessarily need to, like, involve, like, asking him.

You know, I mean, like, there's gotta be some sort of questioning.

And so for me, it's like, so I go to my writing, right?

I will.

You know, people will say I have another book coming out.

And so I write about what it's like when me and my man be arguing.

But, like, I will go to my writing.

So I'll just start pinning down what I'm, like, feeling.

Or I'll, you know, Tony, you know, what do you think it is?

And I'm like, well, I think it's this.

And I'll just.

And I'm using this is my phone.

But, like, I'll start writing.

And so then there are moments in the reflection of, like, trying to answer that question in the writing where I might get stuck, or, like, my heart might start beating fast, but there's like, some reaction and in my head.

And I've now learned that that usually means that that's my unconscious, like, trying to try to let me lead the.

It's the same thing if I'm on stage performing a poem that I've been performing forever and I forget it.

Midway through.

That is.

I think the poem reminded me, like, bro, you need to pay attention.

Like, you.

You know, I mean, you're moving too fast.

Like, slow down.

Like, you.

You need to pay attention to what you're writing.

You know, I mean, a great example is how the boogeyman became a poet.

The title of this book comes from a poem I wrote 10 years ago.

Last line of the poem.

And it was like.

And so the boogeyman became a poet.

It became the epilogue in this book.

I wrote that poem ten something plus years ago.

And I kept that line, how the boogeyman.

You know, and so the boogieman became a poet because that line was meant for me.

It was meant for me, clearly, because who Else was it meant for?

Cause I remember I should preface it with.

I wrote this poem after talking to a friend of mine who was just having a bad day.

I was trying to cheer him up, you know what I mean?

And, and I remember getting off the phone, I was like, damn.

Like, I feel so bad for him.

Like, this dude was really hurting.

Like, he really needs to understand how amazing he is.

Like, he's a really good person.

And so I just started writing this poem about being a good person and recognizing how great you are and light shining on you and blah, blah, blah.

And the last line of that poem became how the boogeyman became a poet.

I don't know why.

Stream of consciousness, ancestors, whatever, download.

And I kept that line in there.

And so when I say, what are you so afraid of?

What truth is?

It's a matter of like, yo, when you're writing an answer to your question, those moments when you either get stuck or you stop or you get scared, it's what are you afraid of?

And so for me, it came down to when I started writing this book.

You know, I remembered that last line and I wound up writing this book.

How did the boogeyman become a poet like, Tony?

How did you become the first generation college student and start coming out of the closet and under freight?

Like, how did, how did you do this?

Right?

What's that?

Truth, Right?

And you like and be brave with it because you got to tell, I told the whole world my business.

Right?

You know, but that's what I mean by like, searching for truths in the writing and like, yo, what you scared of?

And so for me, I learned that I was scared of myself in the mirror.

I was scared to be too black, to be too gay.

I was just scared.

And I still had that internalized mess because I put it in a poem 10 years ago, you know what I mean?

Which means 10 something years ago, I was still scared of the boogeyman.

Right?

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

That's what I mean by that.

Like, the truth is in.

I believe the truth can be found in writing.

That's fantastic.

I mean, dude, this is.

Give me everything I've, I've ever wanted, right?

Like, this is, this is.

I'm super excited.

I'm continually thankful for this because you're just dropping so much knowledge here on us.

And I, I, again, I appreciate you be for being open and honest and, you know, authentic about your answers.

Before we wrap up.

Yeah.

Final question that I'm going to ask.

I may develop some more, but I'm trying to.

You know, you're doing a good job.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Put that battery charge me up.

I need it.

What do black.

I wrote this complete, completely wrong.

Oh, this is why I end up failing one of my English classes in college and having to redo it.

But I'm not sure what was I saying right here?

Why do black books matter to you?

Oh, black folks matter.

No, why do black books.

I'm sort of like, really?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

So.

So, you know, so we developed that.

That concept.

Black books matter.

Right.

And what we're.

Again, it's Black Books Matter, the podcast.

Why do black books matter to you?

Black books matter because our history needs to be recorded.

We are fortunate now to live in a day and age where we have, for the most part, access to written works and books.

And our ancestors did not.

They had the oral tradition for the most part, which is how they kept our history alive and who we are.

And so I think about, like, yo, we now got, like, black writers.

We got.

But, like, this is curating our history.

We are memorializing our culture.

Our stories will be forever told.

I'm like, yo, I'm so grateful.

I'm like, this book will be around for forever.

You know, I mean, like, that.

You can't take away the fact that I wrote it.

Yeah.

And yeah, three.

That's embedded in it means that I existed.

The people's book existed.

This was a time.

And I wrote this again in 1999.

Some.

This is black history.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I think that's what it's about, is we are memorializing our culture.

Yes, yes, yes.

All of that.

Fantastic.

Yes.

That is.

That.

That's what's up, man.

I appreciate it.

Tony Keefe Jr.

Thank you, my brother.

My homeboy from Washington, D.C.

hey, that's right.

I'm just super excited for you, man.

Thank you, brother.

Success.

Everyone, please go get his book, how the Boogeyman Became a Poet.

It is, of course, you can get it at.

And I'm glad you shot at our local bookstores.

Hey, go there first.

I tell folks all the time, I'm like, yo, if you.

If you have access, go to check out your local bookstore first.

Bookshop.org is a great spot to kind of see where some people might be.

But also, yo, how the Book, Man Became a Poet is available at many public libraries.

It's also available in digital, like, ebook format and available in audio format.

So my point is, it's accessible, I think, to all people.

Yes.

So, yeah, you can get anywhere.

Yeah, you can get anywhere.

And on this show, our sponsor is Mahogany Books, so definitely for sure, head over to mahoganybooks.com or you can stop by any one of their three locations inside of D.C.

national harbor or out at National Airport, so.

Oh, I didn't realize there was one out there.

Okay.

@ DCA.

Yeah, bro.

Yeah, we got a.

So we have a footprint inside of a.

A bigger store there.

That's amazing.

I'm.

I'm doing some travel soon.

It'd be.

I wonder if y'all have any on shelves.

If y'all do, I gotta sign some at the airport.

So that would be a cool moment.

So Terminal D, we definitely have to send them an update.

So we send them our order list periodically.

So we definitely will be adding yours.

I've had dreams of, like, walking in the airport and seeing my book, and when I've just had.

I'm like, one day I'm walking the airport and I'm gonna see my book in one of these stores.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we're gonna make that happen for you.

So.

So.

So we definitely make that happen for you.

We'll.

We'll get that added to the shows over there.

But, man, thank you so much.

This has been fantastic.

This has been.

And another incredible episode of Black Books Matter podcast.

Again, I am your host, Derek Young.

Please.

We encourage you guys to check out our other podcasts on the Mahogany Books Podcast network.

We have Real Ballers Reed, hosted by Jana Miles Menafree.

We also have Black Books.

I mean, Mahogany Books front roll the podcast.

Incredible content, y'all.

We appreciate you for spending this time with us.

Thank you.

We hope some of these words were highly impactful to you and my man Tony Keefe.

We will see you out there.

Continue to get some sleep.

Thank you, brother.

That is the plan.

Good.

Rest.

Take care of myself.

That's the plan.

All right, y'all.

Appreciate it.

All right.

Peace.

Thank you.