Kwame Mbalia: Crafting Heroes for Little Black Boys and Girls

Foreign.

What'S good, family?

Welcome to the Reader of Black Genius podcast where we learn about your favorite writers.

Favorite writers.

I am your host, Derek Young, blurred extraordinaire and co owner of Mahogany Books.

And I'm super excited about today's guest.

He's an epic storytelling storyteller, a master of dad jokes, and yet his greatest power might just be his ability to make readers, especially young readers, feel seen, heard and heroic.

But first, a little business.

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So with all of that out the way, let's talk about today's guest.

Imagine standing at the crossroads of history, folklore and adventure, where ancestors whisper, heroes rise, and laughter echoes alongside struggle.

That's the world Kwame and Balia has gifted readers around the globe.

A former pharmaceutical metrologist.

Think I got that right.

Turned literary architect, Kwame captured the world's imagination with Tristan Strong Punches, A Hole in the Sky, a New York Times bestselling novel that earned the Coretta Scott King Arthur honor.

Through his stories, he masterfully bridges African American experiences and West African mythology, offering young readers a mirror for their lives and a map to new possibilities beyond the page.

Kwame is a father, a mentor, and a champion for young black storytellers, constantly reminding us that magic and power are already within us, waiting to be claimed.

Today on the Reader of Black Genius, we have the joy of speaking with the brilliant Kwame Ambalia.

Let's step into his universe and uncover the genius behind the stories.

Put your hands together wherever you are for our special guest, Kwame Mbali.

What's going on, brother?

How you doing today?

I'm hanging in there, man.

I appreciate you having me on the show, allowing me to rant a little bit and vent and get things off my chest so I feel good.

That's that.

We're gonna.

We.

We both gonna do that then?

All right.

We're gonna rant, get some stuff from our chest and then apologize later, right?

What was it?

What's that saying?

You.

You do I forget how you say you do first and ask for forgiveness later?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Something like that.

So.

So that's where we are today.

All right, so as I said in my opening statement there, you are a master of dad jokes.

Okay?

And I would love for you to share with us your favorite dad joke.

People, please pay attention.

Dad jokes are unfairly criticizing this society.

Dad jokes are a great source of humor.

Enjoying laughter.

So, Kwame, sheriff us your favorite dad joke.

All right, this one is.

This one is a.

A two parter.

And I would first off like to thank you for giving me the platform and the stage to perform this dad joke, or a parental pun, as I like to phrase it sometimes.

But this one goes, what is a frog's favorite food?

And the answer to that, of course, is french flies.

However.

However.

Have you ever seen a frog double parked while getting french flies?

No, because they're towed.

Okay.

I love it.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And rim shot.

All right.

Hey, guys, look.

We are expanding on this show.

I told y' all, I'm learning, I'm growing.

We now have.

What is this called?

We now have a sound pad with some.

With some soundtracks.

So we're moving along here.

We're making.

We're making moves.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thank you for that.

I.

I love that.

French flies.

Okay, so with your permission, I would love to use that.

No, no, these are.

These are.

Please share, take, you know, distribute.

All right.

Cuz I'm excited to see my son's eye roll when I drop that one Autumn.

That's.

That's.

That's just going to give me so much joy.

So much joy.

Okay.

All right.

So beyond dad jokes, the awards, before the awards, the bestsellers and the fandom, there was a.

A young Kwame and Balia.

So as people know, we talk about the origin story of some of my favorite writers, business people, whoever, and I would love to hear you tell your story of where you came from, who you are.

When did you first realize the storytelling was going to be your language to the world?

Just love to kind of get into your.

Your superhero writer origin story, and we'll start the conversation from there.

Yeah, this is something, you know, I talk about a good bit, and it's because I include it in my presentations when I'm doing school visits.

Because for someone who is as big a reader as I think I am, you know, you know, I'm not like, I'm not reading 50 buck 50 books a month or anything like that, but I'm a Pretty voracious reader, certainly, you know, buying a lot of books these days.

I did not have an author visit when I was growing up.

Authors didn't come to my school to do school visit and talk.

In fact, the first author visit I can remember, I actually didn't attend.

I missed.

I actually don't think I even knew about it because at the time I wasn't interested in becoming a writer.

And that was in, I want to say, 2002 or 3.

I was either a sophomore or a junior in college at Howard University.

And Octavia Butler came to speak at Howard University and I missed it.

I missed it out.

Now, to be fair, at the time, like I said, I was in school for biology, for science.

I was going to be a scientist.

Writing at that time was probably way down the list of the things I was concerned about.

Being on the campus of Howard University, it was school and studies parties.

Yeah.

You know, being a part of the, the, the black diaspora community, that was Howard being immense in D.C.

in the nation's capital.

So writing at that particular moment wasn't high up on the priority list.

Now there isn't a day that goes by that I don't kick myself for not giving a chance to, to see, to speak, to be in the presence of the brilliance as that is Octavia Butler.

I just bought the graphic novel adaptation of the Parable of the Sewer, which is incredible, an incredible person story.

So, you know, I talk about my early life in my.

In relation to writing a lot when I go on school visits.

You know, I was a reader and I was a writer, but I was a writer for personal stories, not for external consumption.

You know, I wrote for myself.

I didn't write for others.

And that continued up into my 30s.

Okay.

I love stories.

I love telling stories.

I didn't think I would be a storyteller for others.

I would, I would write, you know, just little bits, little short stories that came to me, chapter starters, brainstorming ideas.

But like, wasn't for other people to read.

It was because if I didn't get those stories out of my head, they would consume me.

And I think that's for me, at least that's the sign that I know that I want.

This is what I was meant to do, is that it's all I can think about is telling some sort of story.

You know, I'll read something and I'll be inspired or I'll hate it and I'll be like, I could have wrote.

Let me.

Here's how I would have wrote the ending which is hubris in and of itself.

Or I will, you know, I'll go see something.

I just, you know, I saw Sinners a week ago.

You know, Michael B.

Jordan and Ryan Coogler's, you know, fantastic movie.

And I'll see it, and I'm like, you know, I'll go back and I'm like, you know, in the movie to talk about, you know, hates and conjure and all of this.

And I'm like, I write about stuff like that, and I go flip through Tristan, and I look at the hate that is, you know, Uncle C.

Or, you know, I'll go look at Jax, and I'll look at Conjure and Conjure Station, and I'm like, man, how can I embed even more of this into it?

So my early stages, you know, my early days, it was full of just getting stories out of my head with the intent of scratching that itch.

Storytelling was an itch for me.

And it's to the point where I would amuse myself.

I was like, oh, this is awesome.

I love this.

But it wasn't for anyone else, you know, and it wasn't until, you know, Tristan Strong came out 2019.

So maybe 2015, 2016 is when I started to take writing seriously as a possible.

As.

Not even as a possible career, but as, hey, this book could be published, it'd be cool if it got published.

But it wasn't necessarily my aim as a career.

I, you know, always thought I'd be a scientist.

And so, you know, the.

The early days were really just.

I mean, my mother will still, you know, she'll mail me a notebook that she finds in the house somewhere that I had scribbled into.

And she's like, I found another one of your.

You know, I found another one of your notebooks, another one of your composition books.

And she.

And she'll mail it to me, because that's just what I do.

I would scribble a story down, and I'd leave it and forget about it and go off and, you know, go to the park and play basketball.

So were these, like, short stories, alternate endings, fan fiction?

Because, you know, now.

Now all this day, we have all these different type of variations that people get into.

But were these mostly just, like, short stories for yourself?

I.

I would say that they were primarily story starters.

So I would get an idea, and I'm like, oh, man, that.

That's cool.

And I would start chapter one.

And to this day, I still have that.

Like, I have a.

The difference is now I know when a Story is ready to be continued.

When a story needs investment, you know, and when the story is ready, you know, to be, you know, harvested and put onto the page or whatever.

Like, if you treat.

I treat story the way that I treat gardening.

Right.

You know, like some.

You have to know when to plant them.

You know, you have to know when the seeds are ready, you know, when they need care, when they need nutrients, when they need to just chill and rest, and when they're ready to be harvested.

And so I have that experience now.

Before, I would just write and write and write and write until I ran out of ideas for that particular story.

And then I'd be, ah, well, you know, and I'd go off to the park and play basketball until a new idea would hit me and I would start the process all over again.

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

So just curious, like, so.

So even as a kid, were you a big reader?

Was it something that took you a while to kind of get into reading, or did the writing turn you into a reader?

No, no, no.

I'm a reader before I'm a writer, and I make sure I tell kids that, too, Especially kids that want to be writers, kids that want to do anything.

I'm like, listen, I was a reader before anything I was reading before, before I socialize, before I became, you know, a.

At least the appearance of an extroverted person.

I was an introverted reader.

I would, you know, I would.

You know, my mother would take us every Friday to check out books from the Martin Luther King Jr.

Library down the street from us.

Okay.

You know, she'd be like, you can check out as many as you want.

And my brothers and sisters would have two or three.

And I would walk out with a pile that was up to my chin, waddling out of there.

And I'd be done with him.

Excuse me, I'd be done with them before the.

The weekend was over.

I was a voracious reader as a child.

That's what I did.

I read.

And so I'm still.

I'm still like that.

I'm still a reader.

I still go to the library, check out.

My TBR piles are obscene around me.

I have so much that I bought, and I can't stop.

But then again, it's part of it is building a library that my kids will then come in and pluck from.

Like, there's nothing that makes me happier.

Like, when my older teens will come in and be like, hey, do you.

You know, we heard about.

We read this in class.

I think my, My.

My oldest Came in and was like, have you heard of a book called, like the Poet X?

And I was like, let me, let me introduce you to Elizabeth Acevedo.

And I pulled it off my shelf and she's like, you have it?

Like, no, no, no, I have it.

It's signed and it is yours.

And she would just be like.

And she just.

That is like, I now feel how a librarian or a bookseller feels when they make that connection with a reader that's hungry for a particular book.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That.

That is awesome.

That is awesome.

I, I'm surprised that you're letting your kid take your signed copy.

You're.

You're a better dad than me in that way.

I'm like, well, let me.

This is mine.

I will get you an unsigned copy and you can have that, but my signed copy stays on my shelf.

So kudos to you for that.

It really depends these days what I'll do is I will get a signed copy and unless it's something that is particularly for me, like, I like this author.

I, you know, I'm trying to think.

I love, I love science fiction, right?

So I have somewhere in here I've signed copies of Martha Wells Murderbot series, you know, which just turned into the Apple TV series.

But I met Martha at a convention in a science fiction convention in Boston, I think in like 20.

20, 20, I want to say, before the, the pandemic.

And it was.

That's for me, that those are for me.

Understood.

Now the, the, the Poet X or like the graphic novels that I get signed for my 10 year old.

Other books like that, like, those are for.

That's, that's for the house.

Okay.

You know what I mean?

But no, like, if I let me get, let me find out that I have a, you know, I still need to get my copy of the fifth season signed by NK Jemisin.

Once that happens, no one's looking at it.

You know what I mean?

It's going on in the glass shelf in the case.

Yes, yes.

Air conditioned.

Yeah, you know, temperature controlled.

All right.

I don't, I don't want.

You don't breathe on the glass.

Hold your breath when you walk into my office.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm tiptoe around it.

White Love treatment only.

I'm with you on that.

And that is a fantastic, fantastic series.

I sell a bunch of those in the store, like any person.

Yeah.

Okay, okay, okay.

All right, so what I want to do is this.

I want.

I have my follow up question for you because I definitely want to Talk about if there were any books during that time that stood out for you.

But one of the things that you, that you mentioned was.

So you started out as a voracious reader.

I'm curious, were you mimicking any of your parents in that, in terms of where your was, your dad or your mom or your grandparents?

Did you see any adults around you who were just like, just as consumed by reading that you were just kind of like picked up that habit on, or was it something that was just born into you?

I mean, we were definitely encouraged.

We were definitely encouraged to read.

Both my parents were professors.

My mother was a, Is a.

Was.

Is once an educator, always an educator, a professor of English.

Like she co wrote an English textbook, you know, taught at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, uwm.

Go Panthers.

She self published a bunch of books.

You know, she did her.

I think I want to say she did her PhD on Toni Morrison and so big reader.

Big, big reader.

And then my dad, you know, so my, you know, my mother was, is.

Is a, you know, speculative fiction appreciator, you know, more fiction.

You know, we share a love of fantasy and stuff like that.

My father, he had books about history and activism and biographies, memoirs.

And I feel like if you read my work, you see the convergence of like both of those and what I try to write.

Like there's always some element of history and activism of revolution embedded in my stories, but it's surrounded and garbed and speculative fiction, fantasy and science fiction, whether it's, you know, Tristan and the powers of the Adinkra symbols and, you know, the Mid Atlantic slave trade and all of those references, or if it's Last skin of the Emperor and we're talking about the kingdom of Axum and.

But into the future surrounded by science fiction with drones and hoverboards and, you know, bionic monsters.

Those are.

That's.

That's my, I feel like that's my fulcrum.

That's where I balance, you know, I balance elements of history with elements of fantasy and science fiction, of the Black Diaspora.

And it's.

I feel like.

And you know, I don't want to knock on wood.

I don't want to jinx anything, but I feel like that's what separates us from what AI can produce.

Yeah.

You know, they can scour everything to replicate and try to and create, but combining elements of history with fantasy and embedding it steeped in culture is something that, you know, humans can only do.

Yeah, yeah.

And there's a, there's a.

There's a piece of reverence and authenticity that also comes through on the writing that, you know, people that AI Just can't duplicate because of the sincerity that, you know, an author writes with when they're.

Especially when they're tuned into their characters and in the subject matter.

So I agree with you 100% there.

And the reason I was asking that question is because this as like, a side note for the parents who are listening when we.

And I hear this a lot as a bookseller, parents come into the store and they're asking, like, so how do I get my kid to read?

Like, what do you recommend?

And, you know, a lot of it is modeled in the household and like I said, building a library.

Because once I tuned into writing, I mean, into reading it, I was.

I was able to go to my mother's shelf of books, her.

Or her.

Her library, and just begin pulling off mystery books.

Yep.

Right.

And because it was easy access to the work inside the home, once I found the books that interested me.

Right.

It was very difficult to get me to read a book that I wasn't interested in.

Like, you know, she tried with Invisible Man.

She tried with Black Boy and Kaffir Boy, and, you know, I got halfway through the book, but I always found myself getting stuck.

Once I found a book that I enjoyed once, it was like a mystery book by Walter Mosley or Valerie Wesley Wilson, and I was like, oh, this I love.

I could easily go to her shelf right away, grab a book, and just consume it.

So a lot of times, you know, what I try to relate to parents is one, you know.

You know, you modeling the behavior that you want is key.

Right?

That's.

That's number one.

And then number two, having the books accessible that they enjoy.

Right.

It's one thing to have all the books that you love, but if you're not introducing them to books a day that they actually enjoy, that they can go and pick up the books.

Like I said, your mom's like, hey, grab what you want, and you're good to go.

Now Kwame gets to go and get all the books on ghosts and goblins or whatever it is that he enjoys, and now he's happy.

Right.

Versus trying to push a certain book, you know, into a kid that they're reticent to read.

That's not going to build the love for reading.

So I really kind of want to drill down on that a little bit, because, like you said, you are a voracious reader.

You write a ton, and you're raising.

Kids who are readers well, and here's another thing.

I have a couple of points on that because my wife is a.

Is also a former educator.

Once an educator, always an educator, but now sits and does works with education and children's media as a part of a children's production company.

And so we have these talks a lot.

And I was actually just reading something about Dogman in a newsletter from someone who was analyzing this and again, feels like a splinter of the graphic novels aren't real books conversation.

And when, you know, the conversation that we should be having is, your kid loves those books.

You are.

And then when you deny them that you are telling them that what they want to read is.

Isn't worthwhile, and you are stamping on their love of reading.

Right.

Because something that I found with all of my kids is, is that, yes, they started with graphic novels and heavily illustrated chapter books, and all that did was it grew and expanded.

Right.

My daughter went from, you know, peer picture books to graphic novels to I survived graphic novels to then the.

I survived books because there aren't as many I survived graphic novels as there are books.

And so if she likes the series and there are no more graphic novels, like, hey, here's, you know, a collection of I survive short stories.

You want that?

Absolutely.

All of a sudden, we've opened a completely new doorway for her.

Right.

The other thing is, I have never read the full version of.

Oh, my gosh, I'm blinking on it.

Is it Ellison's?

No, H.G.

wells.

H.G.

wells.

What's the name?

War of the Worlds?

No.

Was it invisible?

Invisible.

Yeah, I know you're talking about.

I don't know if it's a visible time traveler.

He has a.

He has a book about time traveling.

He also has a book or.

No, there's a separate book.

Was it A Night in King Arthur's Court about the person who travels from the present time back into.

Yeah, the time machine.

The time machine is one and then the other one.

You know, Martin Lawrence did a.

Did a reboot of this, which was pretty funny.

A Night in King Arthur's Court where he travels back in time to Camelot.

It's about to be, you know, put to death until he predicts an eclipse that happens.

And all of a sudden is.

So that's based on a book and like a.

A piece of classic literature.

And I've never read those two books, actually.

I read.

I think we got them from Walgreens.

They were like the little abbreviated, abridged versions with, you know, that had their illustrations in there.

Really short, really concise.

And I devoured those.

Right.

I devoured those.

And again, we're encouraging.

There's not the standard format of reading of books, but it's still reading, right?

Yeah.

I'm, I have a book that I'm going to recommend later that I'm looking right now, and it's a graphic novel.

It is a historical graphic novel that I'm going to recommend in pairing with another, you know, traditional prose book because I read, you know, non fiction historical graphic novels all the time.

Because if I read a regular non fiction book, I start to nod off.

It's just how it is.

But a graphic novel holds my attention.

And so we need to be encouraging the act of reading.

Yeah.

Because that act splinters off and they then become, you know, they, they enjoy, they enjoy the act rather than stamping on it and denying it, forcing them into something that they don't enjoy and then wondering why the act of reading is disappointing to them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

It's, you know, it's.

We have a want for like our kids and we have a, you know, what we kind of expect and think is the best, what is best and good for them.

But at times we have to remember the whole process, the whole process of crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

Right.

And we have to go on stages and we have to find ways that, you know, is what educators are, you know, paid to do.

Find a way to connect a kid with the content that they're learning so that they can ingest it and it stays with them.

You know, they can learn it versus just memorize it.

Right.

It's the same thing with books.

Finding a, finding books and content that, that connects with them.

So that is something that is meaningful and adds value to them.

And once they find that value right.

In that content, they're going to constantly go back for it, looking for it more and more because they know how it adds to, significantly to their life.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's the most important piece that, you know, we have to remember as parents that it is, it is.

Okay.

Right.

I started out with comic books, still have a huge comic book collection today.

But I'm still, I'm a reader everything.

Right.

But what got me going down that road was, and I, I've said it several times on this podcast.

Reading the Death of Superman.

Right.

Reading that comic book.

My mom brought me that trade paper book and I'm like, oh my gosh, Superman loses from that.

I, I just recall my, I think it was my sophomore or Junior year in high school, it just took off from there.

Right.

And that's what you want for.

For kids.

You.

You have to connect with them where they are, and they'll do the rest of it if you lead them to a place that they enjoy.

Yeah.

So.

Okay, so that was, that was a not too quick aside, but I definitely wanted to have a conversation with you because you're doing a fantastic job with, you know, your kids and raising readers.

But as a writer, you are very.

This is what I loved about you from the very first time that we met.

I recall.

I think it was.

Right, it was, it was during the pandemic.

It was either right before or right after because it's when we started doing our.

Our virtual conversations.

Because I've always.

It burns me up that in science fiction, in fantasy, in all these speculative areas of writing, we get to read about other cultures, mythologies and their folklore, their stories.

But our mythologies, whether it's African American or whether it's specific to the continent, gets glossed over.

And you talked about this, of connecting the two worlds of the sci fi and the history, that those two things can go easily together.

Right.

And we're seeing a huge representation of that today with the movie centers.

Right.

That these two things work very well together.

And for us as a community, it expands our knowledge on a variety of things that, number one, we aren't taught about ourselves, our heritage and our history.

But I've always appreciated your intentional focus on that.

And I've always wondered what.

I guess.

And you kind of.

You kind of talked on it, but what really got you going down that path to make that a centerpiece of.

Of.

Of your career as a writer?

Oh, there's nothing.

I mean, this is an easy answer.

There's no intentional directionality towards it or anything.

It's just.

It's who I am, you know, and someone I remember, a.

I don't know if I was on a panel or if it was a, A Q A because I Sometimes I get this question and, you know, there is no, like, mantra.

There's no, like, you know, doctrine that I'm following to like, make sure you talk about, like, this is.

This is what I am.

Like, this is who I am.

This is how I grew up.

Surrounded by, you know, recognizing and celebrating black history from across the.

Around the diaspora.

My parents, I'm looking around to see if I had.

I had one in reach, because I know I got one mailed to me.

My parents, every year they would put out a calendar, and every day, you Know, nearly every day had an element of black history on there.

And what we would do is before breakfast, we would go up and read.

Somebody would go up and read the day's historical event.

And on.

On the days where the calendar was blank, you know, very few.

But on the days they were blank, we would still go up there and we had to say, there's nothing written for today.

But we know black history happens each and every day, right?

And so, I mean, that's how I grew up.

This.

I was raised very Pan African household, you know, the son of two activists, very active in activism, you know, for most all of their lives.

I still get emails and, you know, newsletters that my parents have put together from what they're doing.

And so this is like how.

This is me continuing what they did for me, you know, trying to do it on a global level or at least a national level, you know, with the books that I'm writing.

Right, so you're just rooted in it, right?

That's just this.

It is like it is.

There's no imperative.

Like, there's.

There's no direct action.

There's no, hey, we need to make sure you write it.

Like, this is what I, you know, it's who I am.

These are the stories, you know, that I tell.

My stories aren't diverse because I want to write diverse stories.

My stories are you.

Not you.

Not you specifically, but you think my stories are diverse because of.

Maybe you haven't been exposed to this, or maybe you haven't been reading, you know, as widely as you think or whatever.

And so it's just, it's.

It's.

I don't take offense to the question, but I do wonder how many authors get asked the question, why do you write about your culture?

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, and.

And actually you.

So.

So you gave me, like.

So I have two questions to follow up on that because I.

I 100 understand.

And I want to also want to make a distinction for.

For the listeners because, like, as a.

As a, I guess, quote, unquote insider, as a bookseller, right?

I'm buying books, like, constantly.

Like, once I finished this interview, I'm going to be on a computer buying books for the next two weeks, right?

And I'm constantly, you know, when I'm curating our selection for our website and for our store, I.

In my head, I hear the questions of readers that come to us, like, hey, I'm looking for a book on this, right?

I'm looking for a business book on this.

I'm looking for a book about grief for black men.

I'm looking for a book about.

About this for young boys.

And so I end up going through catalogs trying to find these type of books.

And the other.

I'm also doing the same thing for me, like, what are the books that I love that I'm looking for?

And a thing that has, for a long time frustrated me was I love reading books, these epic mythology books.

I love watching these epic mythology movies.

But it was.

It was difficult for me to find books that was inclusive of African folklore or West African or African American.

Like, they really kind of brought that to the fore.

And that was the thing that, for me, that I just wanted to make sure I celebrate because it's something that our kids need to read more of.

And then when they see.

When the publishing industry sees one success, right, they see Kwame able to do it and connect with writers, I mean, connect with readers, then it opens up that avenue for other writers as well.

Because, you know, for some reason, they just don't think that those are books we can read all the books about Vikings, right?

But for some reason, we can't read the books about, you know, our people.

So that's the thing that I just want to make sure I call out that or point to, because like you said, when your parents are reading different things, you're still being introduced to these two separate, quote, unquote genres.

But you found a way, once you become a creative writer, to meld the two and create and put out this.

These stories for now kids to be.

To see themselves in different ways as superheroes and such.

So, yeah, so I thought that was super important to.

To connect with.

But then the part of that.

That I'm kind of interested in getting to get.

Spin that forward on is what were the books that a young Kwame, Right.

Because maybe there were some of these books that I wasn't familiar with.

What.

What kind of books, as a young Kwame, were you reading that just kind of stood out to you, like, even now as a dad, like, oh, God, I see that book, and I just get, like, these sentimental feelings about, like, that was the book that if I.

I could read it over and over and over again.

Favorite book.

I'm gonna tell my kids that, man, you should be reading this book.

It was my favorite.

What.

What books as a young Kwame elementary school, high school.

That really kind of set the stage for you as influential in terms of maybe your writing or set the pace in terms of how you think about things.

How you see the world or just resonated so much with you just because the writer found a way to connect with you in a visceral way.

I mean, man, it's so difficult because I take a little bit of something from everything, and I read everything.

When I was younger, all I would do was read, I think, you know.

You know, Tristan Strong is a.

Is considered like a portal fantasy, you know, entering something to transport himself to a different world.

And, you know, of course, the lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe was probably one of the first portal fantasies I've ever read.

Man, I read everything I would.

I do.

I read a lot of, like, horror because I don't like.

I don't like scary movies because at least I feel like we're.

We're breaking that trend a little bit.

But like a lot of movies, a lot of horror movies would rely on jump scares to be scary.

And I prefer the tension that is built over time, the unease, which you find in books, right?

And so I would, you know, I'd read a lot of young horror books, so Goosebumps and Fear street and all of that, or whatever, all the R.L.

stein books.

And I'm really glad that today we have authors like Tiffany D.

Jackson and Kalyn Barrott who are really, you know, re.

Energizing that horror sphere for young readers.

But for me, it's a combination of.

I would say it's a combination of Walter.

Walter Dean Myers, I want to say, who wrote Slam, which is.

He came out, I think, in 97.

And there's a book about this black kid.

It's a sophomore in high school who transfers from his inner city school, Carver High School, to a suburban high school and has to readjust, you know, to the differences.

Basketball, his love, feeling out, you know, finding out his friends are involved in activities they shouldn't be involved in.

But it was the first book that wrote, you know, in a way that my friends and I spoke and talked and viewed the world.

So was that connection.

I didn't know books could do this.

You know, I didn't know books could use the vernacular that I use, but in a way that didn't seem corny.

You know, they saw the beauty that I saw in graffiti, you know, on a wall in a weeded parking lot, right?

Where other people might see broken glass and trash and overgrown, in need of repair.

You know, Walter D.

Myers wrote from a place of respect and honor and celebrating and beauty that could be found in the neighborhoods like that, a neighborhood like I grew up in.

And so that really resonated with me.

So at the same time that I'm reading about, I'm reading this story that seems like it's written for me in a voice that I and my friends speak.

I'm also at the same time infatuated with this book called the Lord of the Rings.

Right?

And so again, if you think about what I write, you know, I try to bring those two to a convergence where you have this, this high fantasy, this other realm, this other earth, this other world with own magic system and its own creatures and its own, you know, heroes and villains, but in a vernacular, in a language, in a cultural infusion that feels so at home.

So similar, right?

Those two books.

So 97 Slam comes out.

Lord of the Rings.

I was reading in fourth and fifth grade just because I was, in fact, my brother bought it home.

My bro, I think I was infatuated with the COVID It was a, it was a.

I read the Hobbit first.

I read the Hobbit first and then the Lord of the Rings, even though they came out, you know, in opposite release dates.

But I remember the COVID of the Hobbit.

I can.

It's this.

But I think we bought it from a used bookstore.

It's this black beat up cover.

It is black beat up book.

And on the COVID you have Bilbo Baggins holding Sting the Sword with Gollum lurking behind him.

And I'm like, what is this?

What is happening here?

Like, I need to, I need to know about this, right?

And it's about a ring that turns you invisible in a grand adventure for a quiet, mild mannered dude who likes food.

Like, I'm like, like, wait a minute.

This can be.

You can.

We could be the heroes.

An introvert who loves eating can go.

Out and be a hero to the main character.

I was like, hold on now, running outside barefoot, you put a country dude as the hero of the book.

Like, Bilbo is a country dude, you know, from the, from the fields of South Carolina, loves good food, scraped his pot clean.

A bunch of dudes came over, ate him out of house and home and took him on an adventure.

He came back rich.

I'm like, yes, I'm all in this book.

This book is for me.

So at the same time that I'm reading about kids in my, you know, from my hood, like excelling in basketball, I'm also reading about a dude that sounds like me going on an adventure.

And I am merging the two and envisioning what that story would look like if I am in there, you know, What I mean, yeah, and so those.

Those are probably two of the most formative.

But I have, like.

I have like eight copies of, like, the Lord of the Rings.

I have so many works by Tolkien and about token ancillary to the world because I've been so invested and fascinated.

And I.

That is my goal.

My goal is to create a world that kids grow up in and want to learn more about and envision themselves in, and that.

That sticks with them, that lingers with them as they grow into adults, that they keep returning back to it.

That is.

That is my goal.

And I want to do.

Do it in a way the way that Walter Dean Myers did, by speaking to them.

Not about or at or around them, you know, but creating a relationship by engaging with them in language that they.

That they vibe with and then carrying them off to another world with it.

Yeah, I love that because it just.

What you just talked about, it made me think back to, I think the two events that we've.

That we've done with you.

The last one we did at the library.

The kids were very specific about the characters that they related with, right?

No matter what the parents said, no matter what the teacher said, the kids were seeing themselves and connecting with certain characters.

And I'm trying to recall who they were calling out at this last one.

I don't know if it was the conductor or.

Because it was at the house.

The.

I cannot remember it now, but it was a very specific character they were talking about.

But you've been able to create that same type of feeling for these young kids with characters that not just resemble them and, like, attributes, right?

And maybe even, like, setting, but even how they look, right?

Like, hey, you know what?

I think I might recall what it.

What it was.

Now we got to send you to your auntie's house, right?

You know, you.

You know, you haven't been doing so well, right?

So we want to send you to your auntie, to your uncle's house down, you know, somewhere, you know, in a country somewhere to help you get your.

Your act together, right?

It's gonna be filled with love and discipline, but this is going to be the situation, right?

And these are the moments that kids can connect with, can relate with because they hear this from their parent and they're like, oh, okay, I didn't.

I just.

I just stepped over this line one too many times.

I need to kind of get myself, you know, back on the side of right?

So I'm not going down to this.

This my auntie's grandma house where I don't want to be for the summer or whatever it is, but I appreciate it.

That connection coming from the kids speaking for themselves, not the parents and teachers saying it, but.

And that means that the kids are resonating with the works that you're putting out.

So.

Yeah, just.

I just keep coming back to that every.

Because there's a very interesting connection you seem to have with your readers, and I really do appreciate that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Okay, so we have Walter Dean Myers as one of the standout books, as well as the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

But for our purposes, we're going to be calling out Walter D.

Myers.

Right.

I'm just curious.

Is there another book that centers black folk or written by a black person during that time period that resonates for you?

So I didn't grow up.

I'm not a comics book guy.

You know, we were.

You know, you mentioned that earlier.

I didn't grow up with comics.

My parents were like, you know, this isn't.

This isn't what we want to bring into the house.

So we're not worried about, you know, Superman or Spider man or anything like that.

And now I find myself retroactively going to comic book stores, just lingering for hours, just browsing through the stories and.

And.

And being enraptured, like, oh, these are, you know, amazing or whatever.

But, you know, so I grew up, they would give us the golden legacy books.

So golden legacy comics or whatever.

So they were comics for, you know, centering around people from black history.

Right.

And I remember.

I don't know if it's.

I think it's the very first issue is Crispus Attucks, you know, the black man who fought in the Revolutionary War, or at least at this.

At the start of it.

And the COVID of him, I believe Christmas Addicts is about to suplex a red coat.

And I just.

I was like, that's amazing.

That.

That's amazing.

You know, at least that's what that is.

What my childhood, my, you know, as a.

As a big wrestling fan, you know, big WWF fan, that is what my.

My mind immediately connected to.

I was like, crispus Addicts in the name of Freedom and Revolution is about the suplex of red coat.

You know, Paul Revere went galloping down the road talking about, the British are coming.

The British are coming.

And Chris books Christmas attics was like, ring the bell and started suplexing.

And I just envisioned him going around like.

Like Kurt Angle just going back and hitting them with the back, you know, full Suplex.

Nope.

Exactly.

You know, for the pin.

One, two, three.

That's how we won the Revolutionary War.

Yeah, it's by Suplex.

And Red goes, no.

And actually, I have a few of those original comics, and I absolutely love them, these history comics that were written teaching black history to kids.

So, yeah, it's gonna be.

That's gonna be a recurring theme for me.

You know, we're gonna.

We're gonna talk about books we're reading right now, and you'll.

You'll see that this is.

This has been something that has stuck with me, and I think there's a very good reason for that.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, let's, let's.

Let's continue down the road then.

So we talked about your origin story, right?

Growing up voracious reader, whole family surrounded by a family of readers, sisters and brothers.

Read your parents, read different genres, introducing to.

To different ideas, allowing you to see and absorb different information and kind of form the ideas and the.

And.

And touch the things that really kind of resonate with you.

That's your origin story as a young kid, teenager in the college.

Let's talk about the.

What we call the becoming years.

Right?

So this is your early career years, right?

So about.

You just graduated college, you finished at Howard University.

I have some line brothers who might take objection with that.

You know, they.

They constantly remind me what the real hu.

Is, but I'll let you guys have that conversation.

Everyone is allowed to be wrong.

No one's perfect.

No one's infallible.

Right.

Right.

Everyone's allowed to be wrong.

I like that.

I might have to use that one as well.

Okay, so you have that major shift now.

You're becoming what.

So let's talk about that time of year, that period of your life, right?

What were you doing?

You're a scientist now.

And then what kind of books were you engaging with?

That was like just kind of helping to form Kwame during that time of year.

I mean, this would be your life.

This will be a very short section because there wasn't much.

There wasn't much writing or reading happening at this point because we're, you know, we're in the career phase.

You know, we are trying to.

I have a family.

I'm married.

I got married a year after I graduated in 05.

I got married in 06.

Okay.

And so we're married, you know, had a kid in 08.

And so like those.

These are years of.

Not struggle, but of building, you know, so there's.

It's work.

It's trying to you know, stay employed.

It's trying to build a family, you know, build something that lasts.

Ownership.

So it's less about.

It's.

It's more about trying to figure out how under capitalism we advance, you know, healthily.

Right.

Without being at the expense of someone else.

You know what I mean?

It's a lot of.

A lot of class solidarity, you know, like, we're all in the same.

One of my favorite thing, I worked at a video game store.

Used to be EB Games.

Trans turned into GameStop.

Yeah.

So I worked at a.

I worked at GameStop.

And I just remember all of us in that plaza, like we're all in the same boat.

It's a shopping plaza.

It's a game stop.

It's a baba ganousha.

Greek.

Greek, you know, fast food restaurant.

I think there's a, A big box wholesale.

I don't know if it was a Costco or, or a BJ's.

There's a, you know, this is just a bunch.

There's.

I think there's like a auto repair or service or whatever.

So it's just a bunch of us, like, of the.

All, like, social class, economic class, all in that plaza.

And I remember just how we were all doing the same thing coming in for our shift at our break, traveling to each other's spot, chatting, talking, what's going on, what's happening, how the, you know, how's your, how's this going?

You got this day off.

I didn't get.

I'm getting this day off.

We're both looking forward to federal holidays, you know what I mean?

It's a lot of class solidarity.

And, and I think about that now because I'm like, I didn't have time to read, you know, and, and I wonder if we think about that in the book industry, about the people who are, who were like, we want to read, who are asking to read, who just don't have.

Might not have the time.

You know what I mean?

Like, I, we were, you know, it was, you know, dropping kids off at work or dropping kids off at school, at daycare, dropping the wife off at work, going to work, going to pick up the wife, going to pick up the kid, you know, trying to figure out what we're doing for dinner, you know, trying to make sure that the kids engaged, trying to figure out what, you know, what bill is due, when and how much is it and why is it so much higher than it was last month.

Like, it's, it's, it's not a.

We were.

There's no time for writing.

I remember the, the.

I can't remember what I'm reading at the time because I don't think I'm doing much reading at the time.

I'm, I'm.

When I get done, I'm turning my brain off and I'm just like, you know, I'm playing, you know, a video game or that's, that's it, you know, playing a video game, just chilling or playing with the little one.

I do remember, I don't know how I got it.

I had my mother's old laptop that she used to type up a manuscript on before she upgraded to a desktop that the university gave her.

And she gave it to me and, and I remember sitting down in my, in our little apartment or whatever and just typing.

I don't even remember what the story was about, but I remember it's the.

I was like, I have a story and I want to write it.

And I remember, you know, there's for a period about like a couple months, I would come home, crack up in the laptop and start writing.

And I think that is the beginning of me.

This is like maybe 2000.

Yeah, 2008, 2009.

And I am like, I have a story to tell.

And I think it's the first time in a long time through college, you know, and into the workforce that I had a story to tell.

I don't remember what it was about, but I remember I was like, it was that familiar feeling of I need to get this out and talk about it.

And I don't think it went far.

I think it was like maybe two or three chapters, but I was like, that felt good to get it out, right?

And then I remember from there I getting online and starting to look more into message boards and chat rooms and then finding Reddit and then finding a writing community on Reddit, forming what would become a discord group.

I think before discord was created and just then the urge to write and then the stories we would share, an urge to read, grew out of there.

But it was really, those were the years where encouragement mattered more than opportunity.

Right?

Someone saying, kwame, you can go, right?

Or finding that community of like minded.

This is why one of my biggest pieces of advice to young people, aspiring writers or, you know, aspiring writers, no matter what age you are, is to find your community because they will be the people who push you and encourage you.

When you say, I'm not good enough or oh, I'm ready to stop, they're the ones who are like, who hold you accountable.

What I call accountability, accountability bullies who will gently.

That's why you always see me, you know, you see me on social, you see me on IG and threads or whatever on blue sky.

Like, have you written, Are you writing?

You should be writing.

Because that message, you never know who sees that message and they're like, you know what, let me put the phone down.

I should be writing.

And so I try to create that community for those who might not have it, because you never know when that encouragement is what pushes you to finally crack open that laptop because you have a story to tell.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I, I love that.

Accountability bullies.

Accountability bullying.

Yes.

Yes.

Nope.

Okay.

I tr, I don't know if I trademarked it or what, but I use it in my slot group all the time.

Please go ahead and do that.

Go ahead.

Trademarker right away.

250.

Just go ahead, get, get the application in so you first align.

That's that, that is my recommendation to you on that.

Now.

I absolutely love that.

I, I, I wonder.

Once you.

You know, you, you get back to that first to do that little bit of writing, right?

I think you said 2008, 2009, right after, for not doing it for so long.

You, you mentioned like that, that release, like, did you realize during that time how much you missed it?

Like how much that just for your own type of respite and ability to breathe.

Right.

Did you, did it, Was it one of those moments that you just realized how much you had actually missed doing that?

Yeah, because it was like, I mean, it wasn't a smooth restart after that.

There were, it was fits and spurts as I tried to find footing, find time.

You know, as a, as a father, as a husband, you know, as a husband, as a father, you know, like I had other responsibilities that I had to take care of.

It wasn't just.

And I, and I had to figure out, it took me a while too.

It took me almost, you know, 10 years to figure out how to prioritize time, how to write efficiently as a full time with someone with a full time job.

But yes, that it felt like the first time.

You know, you have a cold and your sinuses are stuffy, right?

And that instant, that immediate instant after you blow your nose and for a second you can breathe unrestricted again before your sinuses start to swell again and, and clog and block up.

You have that in that moment of freedom, of release, of inhaling with un, you know, unobstructed, that's what it felt like.

It felt like I had cleared a Blockage of something in my brain.

And I was putting words onto the page.

It wasn't completely unclogged, you know, but it was a start.

It was the start that was necessary before my brain could breathe again and start with the act of storytelling.

Right.

So, and so how much longer after that did you.

Were you able to kind of get back into the habit of reading consistently as well?

I would, let's see, where are we?

Not too much longer.

Because the acts of writing and reading to me are intertwined.

I gain inspiration the more I read.

The more I read, the more I want to write.

The more I write, the more I want to read.

It is cyclical and intertwined.

And so I remember discovering regional libraries.

So up to this point, I had only known community libraries.

It's what I grew up with.

The Martin Luther King Jr.

Library in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Small little community library, you know, maybe, you know, one communal room, maybe a little side section for like quiet study or something like that, but very, you know, very small.

I just.

Then I discovered regional libraries here in North Carolina.

Big sprawling complexes stuffed with books sections that, you know, these were the libraries that when your library didn't have the book, this was the library that they requested to transfer from that had, you know, story time sessions in separate rooms, conference rooms, right?

Multiple floors, multiple levels places, quiet reading rooms, quiet writing rooms.

I was enthralled.

And so there was one in Morrisville, North Carolina, when we moved, you know, just get a slightly bigger space.

We moved there.

And I was like, this is a regional, you know, because I was used to the smaller community library.

Where's the nearest library to me?

And it's this regional.

And I go in there and I'm just like, oh my God, there's wings.

Like there's.

Right, like there's, you know, I.

I enter in the cool blast of air conditioning that dashes the perspiration from my face.

To the right is the young adult section, followed by the kids section.

To the left is the adult section and all of the computers open to use.

In the middle is a circulation desk with people.

And then they have.

This is the first time I saw the self checkout for the library.

This is the very first time.

This is, this is, you know, had to be like 20, maybe 2013 or something like that.

The first time I saw library self checkout.

And as an introvert, I was like, I don't have to speak to anyone.

I could just check out my own books.

Oh, like, this is this.

This is what?

Walking through the Pearly Gates must feel like, right?

Temperature control.

Right.

You know, access to as many books as I could want to read and the need to not talk to anybody.

I was like, I have ascended, you know, rapture.

So, yeah, I mean, the discovering, rediscovering, the power of the library really ignited, reignited the passion for reading in me.

It's why I stand 10 toes down for libraries as pillars of the community.

Right up there with independent bookstores.

Like, these two institutions are intertwined.

I think Michael Freet said it.

Said it yesterday, you know, on or on.

On bookseller.

On.

On Independent Bookstore Day on Saturday.

Yeah.

You know, he said that libraries and.

And independent bookstores have stood intertwined for decades as pillars of the community for promoting reading.

Right.

The two go hand in hand.

The two do not exist in competition because we are all highlighting the importance of reading.

And so, like, it's why I stand down for them because they really re this place that I could go to when I'm struggling.

Right.

When I'm.

We're trying to, you know, we're building this young family, this new family.

I got rent and daycare, gas bills, eating everything up.

This is right after the recession of 08, you know, 09 had ended.

You know, things haven't rebounded completely yet.

And I.

We are.

We are struggling, you know, and this place that's offering this sanctuary of literacy, you know, really reignited the passion.

So as I'm reading, I'm like, oh, yes, I remember now.

Her story.

Ideas are unlocking, doors are unlocking.

I want to write again.

And I'm writing.

I'm like, I want to read again.

And I think this is.

At the time, I.

What am I into?

I am deep in my.

My adult science fiction and fantasy world at the moment.

I can't remember what.

I can't remember.

I feel like, when was the fifth season?

When was the fifth season published?

I.

I don't know why.

I have 2017 in my head, and I might be wrong about that.

2015.

15.

2015.

So.

But before that, you have the hundred.

The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms.

Yes.

Which is.

Yeah.

Published in 2010.

So this is.

I get on my NK Jemisin bandwagon here.

This is.

I have.

I'm in my writers group.

I read the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, and I'm infatuated.

I'm enthralled, I'm captivated, and I'm in my.

I'm.

And this is, you know, I'm.

I'm in my adult fantasy, adult science fiction era here.

And this is what I think I'm going to.

This is what I want to write at the time.

This is what I want to break into.

And I'm reading NK Jemisin, and then I'm spiraling outwards.

This is when I find, you know, to run Tananarif.

And I do.

Yeah, yeah.

I've started reading all of her works.

I'm.

This is where I discover Niecy Shaw.

This is when, you know, all of these.

You know, I felt some sort of way of when I saw African American on the book cover in the library, because on the one hand, I'm like, why are you separating us?

But on the other hand, I'm like, well, now I know who I need to start with.

Right.

And so I'm reading all of these, I'm expanding, I'm.

I'm devouring them, and they're giving me story ideas.

And so really, it's that triumvirate of.

Of, you know, black women speculative fiction that really propels me forward, both in short stories with.

With Tananarive, and in these long, sprawling, you know, fantasy epics that Niecy Shawl and.

And.

And Nora Jemison are exposing me to that are really sinking their hooks into me and dragging me back into reading for fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, I, I definitely.

I have a couple of questions out of there.

I'm gonna say 10 and a Reeve.

Do I love N.K.

jemisin?

Absolutely love her, but 10 and Reeve do.

So I'm a bit older.

I graduated college in 99, and so when I started my early career, period, I want to say around 2003, 2004, 2005.

You know, we're living in the Alexandria area, and I'm taking a bus back and forth to work and out from Alexandria.

So it's a combination of buses and trains.

So I'm reading Tanner Reeve on the.

On the.

On.

On the bus.

And I found this book by her called the Between.

And like you mentioned, I'm not necessarily a horror guy.

Right.

I don't like the jump scares.

I can kind of do the low tension, the tension books that kind of build up over time, but I just prefer not to because it sits on me.

But I knew she was a fantastic reader when I read the between, and this book was scaring the hell out of me, and I couldn't put it down, and I just had to keep turning the page to figure out what's going on.

I absolutely love her and her books because if you can force.

If you can make me read something scary when I Know it's against my best wishes, my best interest, but I have to do it anyway.

To me, that's hands down a phenomenal.

A phenomenal writer.

So I always think that when I hear Tanner Rever do recommend anybody go read the between fantastic book.

But what I'm curious about is you mentioned this is the time that you began to make that switch to thinking, okay, maybe I want to be a writer.

What made that move for you?

What was that time period?

What happened that got you to thinking?

I now want to.

I want to move from writing for myself personally to actually maybe writing for people to share with people.

I was on Reddit.

I can't remember the video.

The year I was on Reddit, it was in the T.

It was in the 2000 and tens.

And I knew I wanted to become better at writing.

I didn't have a formal writing education.

I knew I could tell good stories, but how to tell them still eluded me.

I wanted.

So I got on Reddit and I don't know what prompted me, but I would go on R writing all the time, which was the subreddit for writing, and just lurk, you know, see what people were suggesting, what people were recommending.

And I remember seeing a post about from this kid who wanted to start a writing group offline, and a bunch of us, you know, jumped at the opportunity and.

And I was like, yeah, I want to get.

This is.

You know, I can't afford an mfa.

I can't afford to go back to school to learn how to write.

And so the next best thing is some sort of informal workshop where we could, you know, submit writing.

And that's what the idea behind this was.

Now, initially, it just was like another social group where people were chatting.

And I didn't really contribute much because I was like, this isn't what I really signed up for.

But eventually, you know, as most groups that get formed do, there you have the power users, the lurkers, and then the people who join initially, but then kind of went all the way or whatever.

And so I joined the group and eventually became just that.

We, you know, would share our.

What we've been working on, what stories we're trying to write.

I remember we had this.

This competition.

It was called the Iron Pen, and basically it's a thousand words on a.

The subject was chosen beforehand.

Three of us would be judges, and, you know, we kind of rotate through and you would go head to head with somebody about the same topic in a thousand words, trying to write a short story.

And I remember I lost.

And one of the judges DM to me and was like, I would.

You know, I would pay to read more of that.

And this is the second time somebody had done that to me.

But one of the judges DM me and was like, you know, I love your story.

You know, have you thought about, like, submitting it anywhere?

And I hadn't.

And I researched it, looked into it, you know, looked at online magazines, looked at, you know, trade magazines, literature magazines, getting an agent and stuff like that.

And it's just like, I'll look into it.

But that was the first, you know, I get getting that encouragement.

I tell the story all the time about how someone, you know, read one of my notebooks that I kept my stories in and did something similar, you know, when I was younger, like, I would pay you to read that, or I would pay you to finish writing it so that I could read the rest of the story.

And those.

That encouragement is what pushes people because, you know, that's what workshop is.

It is reading something, critiquing it for them to become better and pushing them to continue to excel as a writer.

And so for me, that's what this group did.

And I just started researching from there, like, hey, what's.

What's involved?

You know, and we would feed off of each other.

You know, I would write, I would submit something.

People would read, they would submit, I would read, we would go.

It was just like an MFA program or a workshop program, except it was completely informal.

We had no idea what we were doing, but we were building a community around the act of writing.

And so that just continued.

And the urge to have more people read my work grew and grew.

The more people gave me feedback.

It was like, we like the stories that you're telling.

Right.

Okay.

Love that.

So.

And.

And so were there.

Well, I guess.

Are those the books that you mentioned during that time that really began to form your Persona, your personality as a writer?

You talked about NK Jemisin, the fifth season, 100,000 kingdoms.

What were the books during this time for you that.

That helped to kind of, like, again, lay that foundational.

The foundational principles for you.

For you, either as a person, as a husband, as a dad, as a writer.

Like, what were those.

Some of those books for you from.

From black writers that resonated with you during that time that really kind of helped to move you along to where you are today?

I mean, I remember bringing.

I remember.

I can't remember what the first line is, but I remember putting the first line of the hundred thousand Kingdoms into this.

This group chat and being like, this book is amazing.

I remember someone being like, I don't like that line.

And me being like, this is my first indication that, you know, not everyone is going to be fans of everything that you're being a fan of.

Right.

Because I thought it was brilliant.

I thought it was amazing.

I loved it.

So I'm reading it as I'm a part of this.

As I'm a part of this group.

I remember reading.

What am I.

What am I reading at the time?

Like, they all.

I'm reading all of their, like, backlist.

So I'm trying to write a.

A West African steampunk at this time.

And Niecy Shaw, I believe, had just written Everfair, which is, you know, the Belgian.

Sort of a retelling of, you know, the.

The Belgian Congo alternate history, right?

Where the.

The Africans, you know, the.

The Congolese develop steam power ahead of the oppressors.

Right?

So this is.

This is 2016.

And this is.

And I'm like, oh, this is exactly what I'm trying to write.

I'm trying to write steampunk set in Africa.

And.

And so Niecy's inspiring me, and I'm going back to read her.

Her back list.

I think I'm reading.

I want to say the Midnight Robber.

When did the Midnight Robber.

The Midnight Robber.

Nalo.

Nalo.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

NATO Hopkinson.

Yeah.

So that comes out in 2020.

Yeah, 2000.

Comes out in the year 2000.

And so it's like these.

It's.

I think this is.

This is probably the time where I realized that, like, I am infatuated with black men, black women writing.

Because I'm.

Because at this time, you know, this is.

So.

This is the 2000 and tens, but I'm catching up on everything, you know, Fledgling by Octavia Butler, came out in 2005, I want to say.

And, you know, then you have the Midnight Robber by Dale Hopkinson.

Like, I'm reading all of these different speculative fiction stories by black women writers at the same time.

Where I'm reading, you know, his other.

I'm in my historical fiction area here, too, with other writers, and I'm like, I wanna.

I wanna do this for.

With the black community in mind, right?

So, like, I'm.

I'm reading the Rifleman series by Bernard Cromwell, you know, who wrote the Last Kingdom, which follows a fictional.

A fictional army private as he rises through the ranks that really follows, like, Lord Arthur Wellesley or whatever, and the Napoleonic Wars.

So we're telling history through the eyes of a fictional character.

And I'm like, I want to do this, you know, and so I'm doing this while I'm reading Fledgling, while I'm reading the Midnight Robber.

Like all of this is just gestating.

And so it becomes again, I'm thinking I'm going to be in my adult fantasy.

I'm going to be in my adult fiction era for my writing or whatever.

And it turns out that that's not the case because I start.

My characters start getting younger and younger because there's something about, again, as you're writing, you want to present obstacles and, and for, for your characters to overcome.

And one of the most natural obstacles a character can overcome is them just not being a position of power.

Right.

And, you know, you can do it as an adult that's oppressed.

But however we naturally do it to young people, they don't know what they're doing.

You know, we.

They don't have, you know, we are responsible for them.

They're unable to.

They can't drive, they can't vote.

They can't.

So naturally they don't have.

Their agency has been taken from them.

And so my characters are getting younger and younger and younger as I'm writing these stories until eventually I'm writing.

I'm like, this is.

I'm writing for young people.

And that's when the switch really flips.

So, so there was something that you.

That as a.

It came as a consequence of creating the plot lines and the, the, the overcoming piece that the characters developed out of that in terms of age and stuff like that.

Okay, that's, that's interesting because I, I don't know if I would have.

I mean, I'm, I'm a big fan of the Buildings Roman.

Right.

The books about the coming of age.

Right.

And the thing is, is that a lot of you have a lot of coming of age stories that are written, but they're adult books, they're written for adults, but they're coming of age of these young people.

And I'm like, you know, I like those stories.

Why are they only for adults?

Like, why aren't the people who are coming of age reading stories about coming of age, you know, as the world is expanding around them.

And so that's.

I'm, I'm.

My characters are getting younger and younger because I find that it's more important that the people whose voices who aren't being heard get a chance to speak through literature and then can be read by those same people and empower them and Give them that agency that they feel like they don't have.

That's awesome.

I.

I just.

That is definitely a different way of getting there.

And maybe just, you know, as a.

As a reader, not a.

Not a writer.

It's, you know, takes a.

It.

It.

It's very interesting how.

How you got there.

My.

I'm.

I'm wondering, did you have to substantially change your style of writing once you realize that you're now writing for kids from what you were doing before?

No, not really.

And I think in some aspect, if you look at what I write, it skews a bit older.

Anyway, in terms of the language that I'm using, I feel like I sit in a niche that is between middle grade and young adult, the tweens, something that might have been called upper middle grade, you know, when publishing still had those delineations and my books are longer, you know, I still find myself like, Kwame, is there a simpler way you can say this?

Not because I feel like the readers are unintelligent, but because is the point to be as obtuse and convoluted as possible, or is the point where to tell a good story and so the two often don't go hand in hand?

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

And so I'm like, kwame, does this.

Is the way you're phrasing this?

Does it serve the story?

Are you just trying to flex word usage?

You know, like, what are you doing?

And so I try to be as straightforward as possible because, you know, we only have but a few minutes to hook readers to get them to commit to reading.

And so if I can make sure that they are engaged as much as long as possible, you know, that's really half the job.

Right, right, right.

Okay.

Fantastic.

So I love this story.

This is.

This was, like, really interesting.

I didn't.

I did not see that story going that way.

And I love that for people, especially writers, you know, our listeners, who are trying to figure out a way to get to the place where you are, that there are multiple different avenues of getting there.

The most important piece of it is the continuity of the writing, right?

Of the consistency of actually working on your craft.

No matter whether it's informal groups that you like to say, communities that you build yourself, or you're going to academic institutions that you're paying for those services, the work is what's most important.

That you're actually engaging in the work and you're getting the feedback you need to refine your craft.

That's the thing that I love of that story.

So the big takeaways from the becoming part of your story.

Niecy Shaw of Affair.

Right.

And I've got to admit, I haven't read her.

I need to go.

I see it all the time.

Her books always attract me.

I just, I haven't taken the time to read her.

NATO Hopkinson read her before the Midnight.

I haven't read the Midnight Robber, but I've read NATO Hopkinson before and of course, the phenomenal Octavia Butler.

And the book that you listed there specifically for her is the Fledgling as one of those books that was stand out for you during that time period.

Okay, so now we are going to jump ahead.

This is where we begin to finish the story.

Leaving the legacy.

Right.

So you become a published writer.

Right.

You come out with Tristan Strong, and it's a, an immediate hit from, at least from our side.

Right.

Looking at it, there are people who are talking about it.

There's like, publishers are like, hey, hey, hey, get this book put on a shelf.

They're doing all their stuff that they need to do to make sure us booksellers are, are making it available and accessible to writers and, and people are receiving it very well.

So where are you today?

Right?

What, what are your, what are your goals?

What are you working on?

What's the story of, like, your development as a veteran writer?

Right.

You know, you do mentoring, you talk a lot about trying to inspire up and coming writers, but, yeah, I guess that's the question is, you know, where are you today?

Where are you trying to get to tomorrow?

What's the legacy you're trying to, to leave?

And are there some books that, as you think about legacy or whatever, that, that resonate with you today that are still making an impact on you?

Yeah, I mean, today I'm, I'm, it's less, it's, it's still about reading, writing, but it's also, it's transitioned more to storytelling and, and the advocacy for storytelling and literature.

I find that I'm, I'm, I'm becoming more and more of an advocate for books, for reading, for libraries, for indie bookstores, for black writers, for black books.

I evolve more in the advocacy.

I'm a publisher now.

I have an imprint with Disney, Freedom Fire.

It's not just about me.

It's about what can the imprint do.

The same stories that they can tell with brilliant writers like Leah Johnson and Tracy Batiste and, and Jill too, and other writers that we have coming out.

And it's, you know, it's not just I'm not just promoting for me.

I'm promoting for the imprint.

I'm promoting for, you know, I have the newsletter, you know what, you know, the Black by Popular demand, what books are coming out each week that are written by black authors and about black characters.

Right.

And it's not just traditionally published, but indie and self published it as well.

Right.

So for me, it's.

It's also about adapting, right?

Like keeping up in an ever changing landscape in both technology and about for storytelling in competition with storytelling.

As technology improves and we become more and more engaged and enraptured with our phones and media on it, like, how can we still commit to the act of reading?

Right.

I went back to school, you know, I joined the.

Enrolled in a Wake Tech community college to go back to school for art because I want to start doing my own illustrations for my work.

Because I'm like, there's so many scenes from my books that I love to illustrate that I feel like would engage readers more like would get them to continue to commit to the act of reading.

Right.

We're a visual, you know, we're a visual species, you know, and, and so the art goes hand in hand with the story.

It's why we have book covers and book jackets and stuff like that.

So, you know, I went back to school for art so that I could do my own illustrations.

More to the fact that I just want to be able to draw scenes from the books and put them out there like, hey, this is what happens.

These are some of the characters and so on and so forth.

So it's.

For me, it's like finding new ways to tell stories.

Finding ways to tell stories that continue to adopt and engage and evolve as readers.

Adopt and engage and, and evolve as well.

Yeah, it's.

It's like my dream is to create a.

A company or an organization that is about storytelling that expands across media platforms and formats.

Right.

It's this.

It's graphic novels, it's comics, it's animations, you know, animated stories, it's traditional prose.

All of it in service to the same story that you can read and engage with and learn more about.

Whether it's a.

I mean gamified, whether it's a visual novel, which is literally just reading with, you know, a why choose?

Or a choose your own adventure component tacked in there a little bit.

But it's still about the act of reading, right?

All of these different games, whether on, you know, they're on the switch or on the computer, on Steam or what have you, they have these visual novels that are amazing pieces of literature that have art embedded with them, but you would feel invested with the characters and you have some control over them because you get to make some input.

And so I want to, to have something that's at the center of all that, that you know, creates these story, you know, creates these stories and brings them forward to the, for this next generation that is going to be receiving these stories across formats, right?

Whether they're reading on their computer that, you know, the school issued computer, tablet or what have you, or capturing, you know, you know, podcast clips about these different types of stories, going into the books and reading more of them.

It's, it's a, it's a difficult path ahead, but it's not an impossible path ahead.

And you know, still at the center, it just being an avid advocate for storytelling, that's where I'm at.

That's what I'm trying to do.

I absolutely love it and I highly appreciate it because, you know, some of the same things that you're talking, some, we have some of the same wants, not as deep in, as, I'm not sure the word I'm looking for, but on, on, on a different level.

That's the whole idea behind the podcast network was, you know, the thing that's most important to us is that people understand the value that they get from the books, right?

We, we help them find the value in the books, right?

There's a book for everyone out there.

The question is how do we, how do we as the booksellers, as the writers, as the publishers, printers, help people find it.

And for us, the podcast was our attempt to help people identify with the writers or to drill deeper into the topics that matter to people so they can see how those things resonate in their lives and can help them in whatever way it is that they need it, whether it's information they need to grow their business, whether it's, you know, personal growth to help them find the opportunity, need to, to become a better person, or if it's just entertainment to just decompress and relax, right?

There's a story for everyone.

And just because it's not in a, particularly in a book form right now, having these conversations about the books, engaging in this community about it is just another way to help make people understand the importance of literature and literacy, right?

So I love the fact that you are looking at these different avenues to connect, you know, reading and writing with all these other art mediums that, you know, is just another way for people to engage with ultimately the Book sometimes somewhere at a person's choosing.

So I'm 100 in love with that.

What I'm curious about in these last few moments here, can you talk about how did the imprint come about?

Right, because that's a.

That's a huge monster step, right, to be able to now kind of drive the type of help, put other people on and get other stories out in front of readers.

How did, How.

How did you get to this place?

I tripped and failed upwards.

Again, it spawns out of this incessant and sometimes annoying need to be an advocate for books, specifically black books and black storytellers.

It's a.

It's a combination of Tristan success that Disney saw and then also the imperative need that spawned from Black Boy Joy, right?

And then also, you know, some combination of the newsletter as well, right?

This celebration of black storytelling from across the diaspora as a partnership with Disney.

People that I, you know, familiar with and who worked on Tristan, who saw Tristan's success, saw how people saw the need for Tristan and across.

Not, just, you know, for.

For black people, but everyone, you know, saw the need for Tristan and enjoyed Tristan and read it for what it was.

And from there it was like it only, you know, it only makes sense because I feel like across media formats, this kind of happens every.

Every few years.

We're seeing it right now with sinners and Ryan Coogler, and we saw it with a previous Ryan Coogler product in Black Panther.

And how somehow every four or five years or so, the world needs to be reminded that black people spend money too.

And so, of course, if you have stories that celebrate, you know, black storytelling, which doesn't mean excluding all readers except for black readers, it's an inclusive imprint.

There's.

It's a win, win situation, right?

The way that I always, like I.

The way that I talked about Black Boy Joy is the same way that I talk about, you know, freedom Fire, the imprint.

And that when you go to a birthday party that is not your birthday party, you still have fun.

You come away, you have cake, you dance.

You may even get a goodie bag.

Even though the day is not about you, right?

You still celebrate someone else and you recognize why that is valid and important, that they get their day.

And that is what Black Boy Joy was.

And that is what the imprint is.

It is an imprint that celebrates, you know, black storytelling.

That doesn't mean only black people can read it.

We encourage everyone to read it because that is how empathy is built in.

Stories are shared.

Right?

And so that's really what the imprint is.

The imprint is it's our birthday and we're trying to hand out goodie bags in the form of books for you to take home and read and enjoy because we know you're going to have a good time.

That is the best way of explaining that I've ever heard.

And Ramonda, she's constantly pointing that out when we, in our interviews.

You know, just because we sell black books doesn't mean that no one else can read them.

Right.

Just because, you know, we're black owned bookstore doesn't mean that we're exclusive to only black folk.

Everyone is welcome.

Everyone can come into the store and enjoy these stories and just be entertained, be informed.

Whatever it is, it's, it's open to everyone.

It's just like you said, just in this one, in this particular place, the birthday happens to be for a young black kid.

But you can still come in, do the electric slide, get some ice cream, get some cake, have a good time.

That is, that is a phenomenal way of explaining that.

So incredible.

I, I appreciate that.

All right, so was there a book for this period of time that kind of stands out for you?

It still is.

It's one, it's the book that I'm, that I'm.

I'm gonna leave you with that I'm gonna recommend.

It's actually a book.

Page herring.

It is.

The original book was written in, I want to say 19, 1938, by a Trinidadian historian that goes by C.L.R.

james.

And the book is the Black Jacobins.

Yes.

It is the story of the Haitian Revolution.

A history of the Haitian revolution.

And, and C.L.R.

james is unflinching.

There's some parts that make you want to shy away from what happened, but you can't because this is history.

And as much as other people may want to turn or close their eyes, like this is what actually happened.

And you can't turn away from a lived experience.

Right.

So you have the Black Jacobins, which is written in 1938 and still incredibly important and relevant for today.

And I pair that with the graphic novel adaptation.

It is called Tucson Lovenure, the story of the only successful slave revolt in history.

It is adopted by Nick Watts and Sakina Karimji.

I hope I'm pronouncing your name right.

Similarly, you know, it is, it is adapted from, from CLR James.

And similarly, it is unflinching and what it, and what it shows and what it depicts.

And I told you, I read like there's graphic novels, non fiction.

I eat it up, I eat it up because I learn and I'm engaged.

We are a visual people, and when we see something versus when we hear about it, when we see something with our own eyes versus just about reading about it, there's, there's a connection, a new pathway that is formed in our brain that really cements this.

And so I encourage you to read them in tandem because one, you know, the, the Black Jacobins is a short book, but you will probably read it in, in sections and, and let it digest.

Tucson Lovature.

The graphic novel is incredible.

And it is, I, I, I'm still working my way through it.

This is when I say that I want to do my own illustrations.

I don't know if I'll, if I'll ever reach the level.

I never say never.

You know, I just have to be dedicated.

But I don't know if I'll ever reach the level where I can do my own graphic novel by myself.

But these are the illustrations that I want to do.

I want to take transformative scenes from my book, you know, from my books, and put them into art form so that, you know, the very first way that we teach ourselves to read is by flipping through picture books.

Even we, we don't know the words, right?

There is still that element that happens when we, when we visualize pictures that accompany storytelling.

So that's what I want to do.

And that's, that's what I leave this with you all for.

Okay, that, that is awesome.

As is prescient, because that's one of the books that we're going to be featuring for Haitian Heritage Month next, next month is CLR James of the Black Jacobins.

So I gotta find my copy.

It is, it is stickied to Haiti and back, but I gotta, I gotta, I gotta find it because it's somewhere in me.

There is this, there is a speculative fiction story of revolution involving, involving magic that centers around the, what I call the, the, the new Black Triangle.

So you had the, the triangle slave trade, you know, but what I call the new Black Triangle is, is the, the southeastern coast of the United States, you know, the Carolinas, Georgia's, you know, all of that South America where we were transported and in the Caribbean.

Yeah, I call that the New Black Triangle because that is where we came, forged new cultures, new pathways based off of what we brought with us.

And they're in some alternative history, just like what Niecy Shaw did with Everfair and Steampunk and steam power.

I want to do with magic and fantasy and that New black triangle, where there's a nation or an alliance formed by the diaspora and where would we go from there?

That I'm, please write that I am definitely, definitely interested in that.

Yeah, I love the direction of that.

That would be phenomenal.

So, last question before I ask the ending question.

Do you find you have a lot of adults that are just as enamored with your books than as, as young kids?

Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's on behalf of them.

So a lot of librarians and teachers who will read it and say it's phenomenal and will thank me, what I'm doing for young people, but who, you know, still enjoy the books.

But yeah, I, I think and sometimes, you know, because they are gatekeepers, you know, they, they're the ones who I see at events because a middle schooler, an elementary kid isn't going to drive himself to where I'm at, at a conference to say that.

Now I might hear it at school visits or they might bring them up, you know, they have their books to be signed and I notice that they're a battered, well loved cover and that's how I recognize what it means to them.

But normally it's the gatekeeper speaking on behalf of their students, other kids, other of the children in their lives, young readers saying thank you.

And it's, I can hear both of them, you know, as they speak, the young person and the adult.

So I, I, I, I do get it.

And you know, I'll also get the occasional like fan mail or stuff like that or fan art.

And it's, it's all, you know, really, really rewarding and empowering knowing that people feel that way about stories that I write.

Yeah.

And I asked that question because, you know, we get a lot of adults into the store that they walk to young adult and young reader section for themselves.

There's no kid for them.

They're not buying for note for no little kid.

It is an adult walking into the store.

And I'm looking for this book because they enjoy the magic, the fantasy, they enjoy the characters, they enjoy the overcoming that these kids, that these characters engage in.

And I just, I just wonder if like adults who sometimes maybe, oh, I'm buying this for my son when they're really not, if they're more open and honest now, you know what, bro?

This is for me.

I love your work.

I'm just reading it for myself if, if you have those conversations so as well.

I do, I do.

But what I'll, I see more often than not is I'm gonna Read this first before I have a young person in mind who could also love.

Like, it's like, I'm gonna read this book and then pass it on to someone who might need it, you know, more than me.

Hanging on to it.

Okay.

Okay.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Well, fantastic.

I.

This is exactly what I was hoping for.

I've truly enjoyed this conversation with you.

My last question, and this is the, the ending to all of the conversations I ask every person that I interview.

What does black books matter mean to you?

Or why do black books matter to you.

On an individual level?

I think about it like no one can tell your story.

Like you can't.

You know, observers may see it from the outside and they report on it, they talk about it, but no one has lived through it the way that you have.

And so it's why oral storytelling has always been so powerful.

Listening to your elders, you know, pass along stories that matter.

And so that lived experience is what changes things, which makes things more impersonal.

The other thing is that it's again, this is how culture spreads and this is how empathy is built.

You know, I read about the indigenous experience, I read about the migrant experience, I read about the African, the Caribbean, the, the, even the European experience, the Irish experience, the Scottish experience.

Right?

I really, I read about it.

And this is how empathy is built because you become aware and you realize the similarities amongst the differences between cultures.

And black books fit in there as well.

Our experience matters, our books matter, and this is how we share.

Now there will be some who will say that it doesn't matter.

You know, we're all Americans, we're all this, we're all that.

Listen, you like Mexican food, you like Italian food, you like Chinese food.

You know, my wife loves Thai food, I love Korean food, right?

I'm not gonna go in there and be like, it's all the same thing.

It isn't.

And it is those difference that making them special, it makes them unique.

And sometimes you just have a craving for it.

So listen, some days you might just have craving for a black story.

You don't have to feel ashamed about that.

That's right.

Find your nearest local independent black owned bookstore.

Go in there, don't be shy and say, what's, you know, what would you recommend?

When I go to.

What if I go to a new place, everything comes back to food for me.

When I go to a new place, I go to a new restaurant and I'm like, hey, what would you, what's your favorite?

What would you recommend?

And they share.

And I learned Something new.

So the next time you have a hankering for a story, go into your local black bookstore and ask them what would you, what would they recommend?

And I guarantee you're going to walk out with an experience that you weren't expecting.

It's going to be transformative.

You might learn something, but you're for sure going to have a good time.

And at the end of the day, that's the most important thing.

So we matter because our story matters.

Our stories matter because our lives matter.

And our lives matter.

Well, I don't have to explain that to you because we're living representation right now.

Yes.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Awesome, awesome, awesome.

Hey, I've been super excited about this.

Our live crowd is enthusiastic in the background.

I'm getting better at this, y' all.

I love the sound pad.

This is gonna be some, some great surprises coming from this.

So thank you, Kwame, again.

I truly, truly appreciate that this, this conversation.

Learned a lot.

I've.

I've picked up some books from here that I'm definitely going to have to read myself.

The Black Jacobins.

And we'll be adding Everfair to the top of my list here soon.

I definitely want to get on that.

Guys, that's it for today's show.

And we want to thank our special guest, Kwame and Balia.

Remember to please check the show notes for a full list of the books discussed here today.

And of course, if you're interested in picking up one or more of these titles, we encourage you to visit our show sponsor, mahoganybooks.com the premier destination for new, classic and best selling books.

Our show would not be possible without the hard work of Shed Life Productions.

Lastly, the reader of Black Genius podcast is a member of the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

Check them out for other great shows like ours focused on books written for by or about people of the African diaspora.

Please, like, review and share wherever you get your podcast today.

And with that, peace, Black books matter.

Thank you so much, brother Kwame.

Thank you.

We appreciate you.

We'll talk to you soon.

Take care.

All right now.