Join us for a thought-provoking discussion on "A Black Woman's History of the United States," where authors Dr. Kali Nicole Gross and Dr. Daina Ramey Berry share their insights on the profound impact of Black women throughout American history. This virtual author talk, recorded during the pandemic in April 2021, explores the rich tapestry of experiences that shape the narrative of Black womanhood, emphasizing resilience, activism, and the ongoing demand for justice. The authors reflect on the research process, the challenges of highlighting overlooked figures, and the importance of representation in historical narratives. They also discuss how their own backgrounds and experiences influenced their writing and the necessity of making Black history a more integral part of education. This enlightening conversation not only celebrates the contributions of Black women but also encourages listeners to engage with and share these vital stories.
A vibrant dialogue unfolds as Ramunda Young hosts a virtual author talk featuring Dr. Kali Nicole Gross and Dr. Daina Ramey Berry, two esteemed historians who co-authored the groundbreaking book, 'A Black Woman's History of the United States.' Recorded in April 2021, during the peak of the pandemic, this discussion not only showcases the authors' scholarly insights but also captures the passion behind their work to shine a light on the often-overlooked narratives of Black women throughout American history. The conversation begins with Young introducing Mahogany Books' mission to promote African American literature and its critical role in fostering community engagement during challenging times.
Dr. Gross and Dr. Berry reflect on their collaborative journey, revealing how their respective areas of expertise contributed to the depth of the book. They recount the initial conversations that sparked the idea for the project and the subsequent workshops they held with fellow scholars to refine their outlines and approaches. The authors emphasize the transformative power of storytelling and the necessity of centering Black women's experiences in historical narratives. By discussing the emotional labor involved in researching painful histories, such as those of enslaved women and victims of systemic racism, they highlight the urgency of bringing these stories to the forefront of public consciousness. Listeners are encouraged to consider the implications of these histories for contemporary society and the ways in which they continue to resonate today.
As the episode progresses, insights into the authors' personal motivations and the historical figures that inspire them emerge. They discuss the complexities of Black womanhood and the diverse experiences that shape it, from the struggles of women in the civil rights movement to the achievements of contemporary activists. Dr. Berry poignantly shares the story of Mamie Till, Emmett Till's mother, who fought tirelessly for justice, while Dr. Gross highlights the importance of representation in literature for young girls. The episode culminates in a call to action for listeners to actively engage with African American literature, urging them to support Black authors and bookstores. Through this rich dialogue, the episode not only educates but also inspires a deeper understanding of the critical role that Black women have played—and continue to play—in shaping American history and culture.
Takeaways:
- The Mahogany Books podcast network highlights the significance of African American literature.
- Authors Daina Ramey Berry and Kali Nicole Gross discuss their impactful book on Black women's history.
- This episode emphasizes the importance of including diverse narratives in American history education.
- Listeners are encouraged to explore the rich history and contributions of Black women.
- The authors share insights on the challenges of researching Black women's history in archives.
- The discussion touches on the need for representation in educational curricula beyond Black History Month.
Links referenced in this episode:
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Ramunda YoungHello, hello.
Ramunda YoungHello, everybody.
Ramunda YoungI am so excited about tonight's conversation.
Ramunda YoungYou have no idea.
Ramunda YoungBut first, a little bit about me and our organization, our bookstore.
Ramunda YoungMy name is Ramunda Young, and I am owner of mahogany books, along with my amazing husband, Derek, and our daughter, mahogany.
Ramunda YoungWe've actually been in business, believe it or not, 14 years.
Ramunda YoungAnd about three and a half years ago, we opened up our first physical location in the historic community of anacostia in Washington, DC.
Ramunda YoungBefore that, we were online.
Ramunda YoungSo ten years online in about three and a half years, in our first physical location.
Ramunda YoungI'm excited because we're opening up our second physical location this summer at National harbor.
Ramunda YoungSo if you're ever in the Washington, DC area, please come out and see us.
Ramunda YoungWe would love to hug your necks, kind of socially distance hugs, I guess.
Ramunda YoungWould love to see you in our store.
Ramunda YoungBut of course, you can always visit us online@mahoganybooks.com.
Ramunda Youngwe actually created the hashtag hash blackbooksmatter, where a little bit over 50,000 people are using that hashtag, which we're so honored and excited about.
Ramunda YoungJust, just excited to be selling books that are focused on people of the african diaspora.
Ramunda YoungSo we sell books that are for, by and about people of the african diaspora.
Ramunda YoungSo this conversation tonight is right in the pocket of who we are as booksellers and community leaders here in Washington, DC.
Ramunda YoungSo enough about me.
Ramunda YoungLet's get to the main event.
Ramunda YoungWe are here to talk about a black women's history of the United States.
Ramunda YoungAnd if you all know of the book industry, last year, this book went crazy for us.
Ramunda YoungIt was one that always kept flying off our shelves, one that customers always kept asking about.
Ramunda YoungAnd so it's an honor for us tonight to be able to have this conversation.
Ramunda YoungIt is now released in paperback.
Ramunda YoungSo if you don't have the hard copy that's all right.
Ramunda YoungYou can get the new paperback release that just came out last month.
Ramunda YoungSo onto our two doctors, you talk about extra black girl magic.
Ramunda YoungI am thrilled to have two women who are really about their business and are experts when it comes to history and women.
Ramunda YoungSo first up, we have doctor Callie Nicole Gross, who is a professor of african american studies at Emory University and creative productions director for the association of Black Women Historians.
Ramunda YoungHer latest book that we're here to talk about tonight, co authored with Diana Ramey Berry, is a black woman's history of the United States.
Ramunda YoungHer previous award winning books include Colored Amazons, crime, violence and Black Women in the City of Brotherly Love and Hannah Maritabs and the Disembodied Torso, a tale of race, sex and violence in America.
Ramunda YoungYou all need to get your hands on all of those powerful, powerful publications.
Ramunda YoungAnd then we have Doctor Dinah Ramey Berry.
Ramunda YoungShe's also an author and historian.
Ramunda YoungDoctor Berry is the Oliver H.
Ramunda YoungRadke Regents professor of history at the University of Texas at Austin and the history department chair.
Ramunda YoungShe's actually the first person of color to take this role.
Ramunda YoungDoctor Berry is a scholar of the enslaved and specialist on gender and slavery, as well as black women's history in the United States.
Ramunda YoungShe is the award winning author and an editor of six books, not two, not three, but six books.
Ramunda YoungHer most recent publication, as we mentioned earlier, is a black woman's history of the United States who she co authored with the Amazing Kelly Nicole Gross of Rutgers University.
Ramunda YoungThe empowering testament.
Ramunda YoungThe book is an empowering testament of black women's ability to build communities in the face of oppression and their continued resistance to systemic racism and sexism.
Ramunda YoungProfessor Barry completed her BA, MA and PhD in african american studies and us history at the United University of California.
Ramunda YoungPlease help me welcome to the stage these amazing doctors, these amazing ladies to the stage for this powerful discussion tonight.
Ramunda YoungThank you.
Ramunda YoungThank you both for being here.
Ramunda YoungI had to read the BIOS because I wanted to make sure I get all those accolades included because you all worked so hard for that.
Callie Nicole GrossThank you so much for having us.
Dinah Ramey BerryThank you.
Ramunda YoungAbsolutely.
Ramunda YoungMy pleasure.
Ramunda YoungAnd we're excited to be part of this conversation.
Ramunda YoungI'm going to minimize my view so I can be full on with this conversation.
Ramunda YoungSo again, thank you.
Callie Nicole GrossThank you.
Callie Nicole GrossSo, Kelly, this is one of the first times that we get to just talk to each other.
Callie Nicole GrossI think since the book came out, we've talked at people, but we haven't really talked to one another that much.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt's true.
Dinah Ramey BerryI was thinking the same thing.
Dinah Ramey BerryDo I sound echoing to you?
Callie Nicole GrossNo, you sound good.
Dinah Ramey BerryYeah, as long as it's clear.
Dinah Ramey BerryNo, it's true.
Dinah Ramey BerryI'm excited about this.
Dinah Ramey BerryI was thinking, where do you want to start?
Callie Nicole GrossI think we should start with the background about how the book came about.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I think we should also talk a little bit about how it's been received and a little bit of our experience over the last year.
Callie Nicole GrossMaybe that's.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd we can see what we go from there.
Callie Nicole GrossSee where we go from there.
Callie Nicole GrossOkay, so let me interview you.
Callie Nicole GrossSo how did you come up with this book?
Dinah Ramey BerryOkay, so actually the origins of this book, there are many origins.
Dinah Ramey BerryIna and I worked together at UT Austin, and we have actually been sort of talking off and on about the need for a newer kind of historical survey of black women's history.
Dinah Ramey BerryAt the same time, you were contacted by an editor from Beacon Press, Gayatri Patziak, about the possibility of doing such a survey.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo it seemed like everything just sort of aligned and it came together.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo that's like the simple origin.
Dinah Ramey BerryYes, but I really feel like the project got legs when we were like, struggling with our outlines and our dress.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd we threw ourselves on the mercy of our sister scholars who we convened for this workshop.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd we just basically spent a day with these brilliant, generous scholars hashing it out.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight?
Callie Nicole GrossAbsolutely.
Dinah Ramey BerryThis thing really look like.
Callie Nicole GrossThat was great day.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah, no, that was a great day because, you know, we were at, when you were at Rutgers, you're now Emory, but we were at Rutgers and there was a snowstorm.
Callie Nicole GrossPeople's flights were getting canceled.
Callie Nicole GrossSo one of our colleagues, Doctor Rhonda Williams, who's at Vanderbilt, was not able to come.
Callie Nicole GrossI was traveling with my mother and we were, you know, wasn't sure if we were all going to make it, but we got there and I think it was like almost a twelve hour day where we just sat around a table in this beautiful space.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd to have ten other, you know, sister scholars there looking at what, you know, we really put ourselves out there because some of the versions of what we shared, I can say were pretty rough.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, some parts were like rough cut, like that should say, should have stayed on the edited, edited floor, editing room floor.
Callie Nicole GrossBut we had some chapters were outlines.
Callie Nicole GrossSome of them were actually fully drafted chapters.
Callie Nicole GrossSome of them had like, sections that were there.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then others went, we lost Cali for a minute, but im going to keep talking.
Callie Nicole GrossWe had some connections that were there and the chapters were doing fine.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then we had others that we just kind of weren't sure where we were going.
Callie Nicole GrossSo we'd have part of a chapter and then part of an outline.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so it was a great conversation because we sat around with all of these other scholars, and they gave us ideas.
Callie Nicole GrossThey talked about things that we had missed or, you know, you made assumptions about the audience in this way.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, one of the things that we were really proud about to bring this really, really rough draft of these sister scholars, right.
Callie Nicole GrossRemember, was that we had all these women that nobody would have heard of.
Callie Nicole GrossWe were trying to find, like, all the gems of black women's history, names that people would have never known, that hopefully would then become famous, right?
Callie Nicole GrossLike, and the first thing that they said to us was, you need to put in Harriet Tubman, you need to put in Ida B.
Callie Nicole GrossWells.
Callie Nicole GrossYou need to put in, you know, Shirley Chisholm, all these names of women that anchor folks so that they know who their contemporaries were.
Callie Nicole GrossSo we had all the women that worked in their same communities with them, but not the actual anchors.
Callie Nicole GrossSo it's really, really interesting.
Callie Nicole GrossThat was not a criticism that we were expecting, but it was really, really valid, valid advice.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I think also we spent some time talking about the timeline of the book.
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Callie Nicole GrossDidn't we talk about the periodization?
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Dinah Ramey BerryWe did.
Dinah Ramey BerryI mean, that was the other piece.
Dinah Ramey BerryOne of the things that was this challenge was we wanted to do a really good job, and we wanted to.
Dinah Ramey BerryOn one hand, it was not meant to be, like, the end all, be all history about black women.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt was supposed to sort of pique people's interest and be kind of a broad strokes, but we still wanted to represent all kinds of black women's experiences that we wanted to incorporate themes that we don't normally discuss, and we wanted to center black women's experiences.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd so that is how we got onto this whole periodization discussion, how we frame these chapters.
Dinah Ramey BerryOn one hand, we wanted them to be legible in case people wanted to use them in courses.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut on the other hand, we also wanted to have black women's history drive that the narrative, from start to finish, rethinking how we structure these chapters, what this periodization was going to look like.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt was just.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt was a really intense, generative day.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt was completely transformed the manuscript.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd I think from that, we really started to have black women at the forefront with the vignettes of black women who represented these periods, naming the chapters after the women themselves.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, really just going.
Dinah Ramey BerryTaking every possible step to have black women's experiences really kind of drive and shape the whole book.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd also it was important to include, you know, the experiences of black queer women and women who have been incarcerated, but also every kind of have a book where folks could pick it up and recognize themselves or folks and their family or people they're allies with.
Callie Nicole GrossYep.
Callie Nicole GrossAbsolutely.
Callie Nicole GrossI think I remember one of my favorite parts of that was, like, figuring out and never going back and forth with you so much.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, we would over email, over phone about deciding, like, who to start the chapters with, like, who represents this chapter?
Callie Nicole GrossWhat's the best opening?
Callie Nicole GrossHow can we bring the reader into this time period in american history?
Callie Nicole GrossDoes this woman or girl or young lady tell the story that we want to tell in this chapter?
Callie Nicole GrossAnd that was fun, because we had, like, you know, lists of people.
Callie Nicole GrossWe were going back and forth and talking about why different people would work.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I remember just enjoying that part of it, and then just the discovery of so many remarkable young black women, girls and mothers and just remarkable women that sprinkle our history books or that haven't sprinkled our history books, that we hoped that this book would actually add to that conversation.
Callie Nicole GrossI think one other thing I think we should say, too, is that we not only sat on the shoulders of the ten women that were in that room, but we sat on the shoulders of a team of scholars, generations of scholars, who have been doing black women's history, you know, from starting in the 1970s with Angela Davis, publishing an article on black women in slavery, and then moving forward to other scholars like Gerda Lernere, Darlene Clark Hine, Paula Giddings.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, we could go on and on.
Callie Nicole GrossThere was always, you know, these generational sort of studies that were sort of found.
Callie Nicole GrossDeborah Gray White.
Dinah Ramey BerryI mean, we had the benefit of them in the workshop.
Callie Nicole GrossWe did.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossRoslyn.
Callie Nicole GrossThe late Rosalind turbo.
Callie Nicole GrossPenn was at Morgan State for a number of years.
Callie Nicole GrossSo there was all these.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd we both were trained by black women scholars.
Callie Nicole GrossSo we had.
Callie Nicole GrossWe had, like, a legacy of women to lean on and their scholarship to lean on.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd we just kind of felt like.
Callie Nicole GrossLike it had been about, what, 20 years since the last sort of general study.
Callie Nicole GrossKathleen Thompson and Darlene Clark Hines book, a shining thread of hope, was published.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so then we thought, okay, it's time for us to come up with one right now, and let's see if we can do it for this generation.
Callie Nicole GrossRight?
Dinah Ramey BerrySure.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo the other thing that I really like about the book, and this is your genius idea, Dinah.
Dinah Ramey BerryI really like that.
Dinah Ramey BerryWe started with Isabel de Olvera.
Dinah Ramey BerryTalk a little bit about Isabel.
Callie Nicole GrossOh, my gosh.
Callie Nicole GrossSo Isabel is someone that, like, historians of the american west, probably have heard about.
Callie Nicole GrossSo we're not the first people to unearth her story by any means.
Callie Nicole GrossDeidre McDonald and Quintard Taylor have both written about her.
Callie Nicole GrossBut we felt like we wanted to start the story of black women that were free, because so much about what we learned about american history has african american people or people of african descent as enslaved.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd that's how we've come to this country.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's how people have marked our space for the first 245 years.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd that's not how we came into the world.
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Callie Nicole GrossFor the most part.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so we wanted to start off with people that were free first, before they were enslaved.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd when we found Isabel, we thought that she was great.
Callie Nicole GrossIsabel Deovera.
Callie Nicole GrossWe open up with her in chapter one.
Callie Nicole GrossThis is a woman of african and indian descent.
Callie Nicole GrossShe goes to her local, I think it was her mayor of her city in Mexico.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd she files a petition to go on an expedition.
Callie Nicole GrossI mean, this is amazing.
Callie Nicole GrossSo you have a black woman explorer, and, you know, that's how we would characterize her.
Callie Nicole GrossIt might be an exaggeration, but, you know, this is someone who, on her own, she says she's not bound by marriage or slavery, which we think is hilarious, and that she wants to go on this expedition to, which is later becomes New Mexico.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd she wants to make, she knows that she's going to annoy people because she's a mulatta and she wants a piece of paper.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd she ends her testimony by saying, I demand justice.
Callie Nicole GrossSo for us, here is a woman of african descent who's free, who's advocating for herself, who asked for a petition and is demanding justice.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd we believe that black women started off in this country demanding justice.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I would argue, and we both would argue that we are still demanding justice to this very day.
Dinah Ramey BerryAbsolutely.
Dinah Ramey BerryThat was one of the through lines, really, throughout that history.
Dinah Ramey BerryThinking about it, we have these themes that we organize the book around, like sexuality, violence, art, resistance, labor, experiencing a criminal justice system, migration movement.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight.
Dinah Ramey BerryAll these themes.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut that drive, that passion, that demand for justice is also this sort of consistent theme, I think, in black women's history, in the book.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd we encountered it in ways great and small, you know, just blown away by that.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, we're both historians.
Dinah Ramey BerryWe do black in this history.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut in writing this book, I mean, I still was blown away by some of the histories that we, you know, learned about it.
Dinah Ramey BerryI learned a lot in the process at points, I was, like, devastated.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryI mean, it was an intense process, but that spirit, that passion, that demand drive for justice.
Callie Nicole GrossYes.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd the ability of black women to collectively organize.
Callie Nicole GrossYes.
Dinah Ramey BerrySeemed like this just sort of overarching kind of characteristics that have sort of made me think a lot about how I reckon black womanhood.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, it's pretty amazing.
Callie Nicole GrossSo let me ask you this.
Callie Nicole GrossWe get this question a lot, like, two questions for you.
Callie Nicole GrossOne is, who is your favorite person in the book?
Callie Nicole GrossAnd the second is, who.
Callie Nicole GrossDo we not include that if we were to write another edition, which, you know, who would we include?
Callie Nicole GrossOh, gosh, that second question hurts.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, it's like, oh, we have a story about that, too.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut, you know, I'm gonna start with a painful question first.
Callie Nicole GrossOkay?
Dinah Ramey BerrySo if.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo, as I said in the beginning, right.
Callie Nicole GrossWe.
Dinah Ramey BerryThis was not meant to be, like, the exhaustive end all the book on black women's history.
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou knew we couldn't get everybody in.
Dinah Ramey BerryWe try really hard.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut I do wish, in retrospect, that we had a little bit more about, like, black women who work in, like, stem.
Callie Nicole GrossYes, we do.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, I think it's, like, one.
Callie Nicole GrossOr two examples, but it's, like, short.
Callie Nicole GrossIt's in passing, too.
Callie Nicole GrossIt's not even.
Callie Nicole GrossIt is.
Callie Nicole GrossYou could have done a whole chapter on that.
Callie Nicole GrossRight?
Dinah Ramey BerryReally?
Dinah Ramey BerrySo that's one piece that I definitely think.
Dinah Ramey BerryI wish we could have gotten some more in.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd in terms of the people, I mean, there are so, so many.
Dinah Ramey BerryI usually talk about Francis Thompson just because I'm blown away by her that, you know, the woman who went to jail because she demanded that this white sudden judge refer to her as, like, Miss Hamilton, not by her first name, like in the fifties.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's hilarious.
Dinah Ramey BerryReally.
Dinah Ramey BerryI love her.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, just that demand.
Callie Nicole GrossYes.
Callie Nicole GrossYes.
Dinah Ramey BerryThose are some of my favorites for sure.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo now turn that question over to you, Doctor Barry.
Dinah Ramey BerryWho are your favorites?
Callie Nicole GrossWell, I already talked about my favorite, which was Isabel.
Callie Nicole GrossBut I.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossIsabel de Avery.
Callie Nicole GrossWould you add it?
Callie Nicole GrossOh, boy.
Callie Nicole GrossI mean, I think one of the things we did with the paperback, we did add a very sort of another thousand words.
Callie Nicole GrossNot a whole lot, but we did add some to the epilogue.
Callie Nicole GrossI think right now, given everything that's happened since the book has come out, the role of black women in politics.
Callie Nicole GrossI mean, we do talk about it with women that are running for office.
Callie Nicole GrossWe talk about, you know, Carletta Bass, and we talk about other, you know, other black women in there, Shirley Chisholm.
Callie Nicole GrossBut I think like, to bring it forward.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, there's like something like eight, don't quote me.
Callie Nicole GrossI think there's eight black women mayors right now.
Callie Nicole GrossI mean, that's huge.
Callie Nicole GrossThat has happened since we begin of major cities.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so I think that's worth noting.
Callie Nicole GrossBlack women have really moved into the political arena, to me, in similar ways that we saw black men during reconstruction have that moment where they were in the political arena and had legislative roles in office and stuff.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I feel like we're kind of in a watershed moment right now.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I think if we could work that in towards the end of the book, if we went past the Obama election, I think we could have done that.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's the one thing.
Callie Nicole GrossBut.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then I think I'll just say this, and this is, I probably, I don't know if I should say this, but I remember when I was getting on an airplane once.
Callie Nicole GrossShould I tell the story, you know, or.
Callie Nicole GrossNo, no, I don't want to get in trouble.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossWell, let's just say I saw a famous person that we had forgotten, and that person will remain, shall remain nameless.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I called Doctor Gross on the cell phone on the plane.
Callie Nicole GrossI was like, before we took off, I said, okay, do we have her in the book?
Callie Nicole GrossShe was like, no.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I was like, ah.
Callie Nicole GrossBecause I was, I had copies of the book and I was going to bring it to her and say, oh, thank you for your work.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I was like, okay, I can't even say anything.
Callie Nicole GrossI can't.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's so embarrassing, saying, I can't.
Callie Nicole GrossWe here, we do a black woman's history.
Callie Nicole GrossWe see this person.
Callie Nicole GrossI can't say anything.
Callie Nicole GrossSo she's in there now.
Callie Nicole GrossShe's in there now.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut I mean, that was also a part of our struggle.
Dinah Ramey BerryWe were trying to elevate voices of women heard of before.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossThey're asking us to tell them, I don't know because I don't want to get in trouble.
Callie Nicole GrossI don't want to ever.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah, yeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnother time.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnother time.
Callie Nicole GrossYes, we will.
Callie Nicole GrossWe will.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt was an illuminating moment.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryI do have a question for you, though.
Dinah Ramey BerryWhat was the hardest part about doing this book?
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, I always go to the dark part.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah, I know.
Callie Nicole GrossWell, I got, well, you know, I can sit in the hull of a slave ship.
Callie Nicole GrossSo, you know, that's where I live part time when I'm not working, functioning in the 21st century.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I think the hardest part was trying to find, and we talked about this a lot, like, ways to really bring the experience of the middle passage forward into the book so that the reader doesn't.
Callie Nicole GrossI mean, we struggled because we were kind of going chronologically, and I didn't remember talking to you about.
Callie Nicole GrossWe were like, well, how far do we go into this space and this experience?
Callie Nicole GrossWe don't want to lose the reader, but also, we don't want to.
Callie Nicole GrossWe want to be true to the history.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so going into that was really hard.
Callie Nicole GrossBut I remember trying to find ways to let the reader experience the middle passage in a way that would be important to understand how that first ship, you know, where Angela was on, you know, the 1619 voyage that so many of us have been talking about for the last, you know, year and a half or so, really, that that was a much longer journey.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd to try to go back.
Callie Nicole GrossRemember when we were looking at the research to try to understand where they may have come from, and there's other scholars that are doing that work, but just trying to.
Callie Nicole GrossTo bring that 20 odd Negroes that were disembarked at Jamestown, Virginia, or Point comfort, Virginia, you know, bringing that piece forward, I think that was challenging.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then also all the.
Callie Nicole GrossAll the black women in wars that we were trying to uncover.
Callie Nicole GrossIt was easier as we got later, like, we got the Civil War, but we were looking at American Revolution, the war of 1812, and trying to find ways to show black women's presence when we didn't have their names, we didn't have all details of their stories.
Callie Nicole GrossI think those were the hardest parts for me.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then just not wanting to lose the reader because I can handle and talk about slavery all day, but not all readers can.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I didn't want to lose anybody in that space.
Callie Nicole GrossWhat about you?
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, so I think the hardest part, I agree with everything that you said, definitely all of that would echo all of that.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd certainly keeping the narrative accessible and engaging enough so that people want to push through all the way.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut I still think the hardest part for me is transcribing Emmett Till's mother.
Callie Nicole GrossYes, yes.
Dinah Ramey BerryDescription where she recounts what she saw the first time she viewed his body after she got it back from the phone.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Dinah Ramey BerryTo him.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd just, like, the detail in it, listening to her kind of describe what she saw and acknowledge it and just the level of carnage that had been done to his body.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah, I was.
Dinah Ramey BerryI had to listen to it over and over because I wanted to make sure I got it right, you know, the pauses, you know?
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd so it was, like, super intense.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, I was crying, stop, then come back, you know, yeah, I wanted to make sure that I got it.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt felt like this duty, like, you know, this mother can sit here and describe these injuries in detail because she wanted to make us know.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight.
Dinah Ramey BerryThis history that I felt like I had to honor her to get it right.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut it was.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt was intense.
Dinah Ramey BerryI definitely felt the effect of that.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I think the other thing is that we've said before is that we both were writing this book, and we were mourning the loss of parents.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I had lost my father.
Callie Nicole GrossKelly had lost her mother.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then.
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Callie Nicole GrossNot too long after that, her cousin, her first cousin.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so we were writing through a state of mourning.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd some.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd the book should have come out a lot earlier, but it came out when it was supposed to.
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Callie Nicole GrossBut we were really going through that and trying to figure out, like, when we were going through the painful periods not only of our own pain and our own grief, but also reading about the grief of mothers like Mamie till Mobley and others that we were.
Callie Nicole GrossWe were like, okay, if they could muscle through and be in front of, like, an audience of, you know, I don't know how many people at a funeral and.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd to do that in the midst of their grief.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then we were also, at the same time, writing when there are other contemporary black women mourning the loss of their children, their daughters, their sons, that are being, you know, murdered and abused by the.
Callie Nicole GrossBy law enforcement and citizens.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, that's, like, all of that violence and writing at this time was sometimes hard to swallow.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd just also, it just puts you, as a writer, puts you in a different state of mind.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, I had trouble, and I've had this before with writing, and we've talked about this.
Callie Nicole GrossI had trouble interacting with some people.
Callie Nicole GrossI was around.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, it just in general, some days, I just was nothing.
Callie Nicole GrossWanting to be social.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know how that is.
Dinah Ramey BerryDefinitely.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossSo, definitely, definitely.
Dinah Ramey BerryAll right.
Dinah Ramey BerryWhat was the triumph for you in the group?
Callie Nicole GrossOh, I know the triumph.
Callie Nicole GrossThis is going to be sound.
Callie Nicole GrossThis is.
Callie Nicole GrossThis is the nerd.
Callie Nicole GrossThis is the archive rat.
Callie Nicole GrossBut this is when, remember, that was we were trying to find women in the American Revolution.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I was working with the student researcher, and I found a document that on the website, it said that there was an enslaver who went back to bring back people from the American Revolution, that he had allowed them to go in the war, and that there were seven men and one woman.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so we called my student, called the archive, and we went back and forth, and they're like, oh, there was no woman.
Callie Nicole GrossThere was no woman in this group.
Callie Nicole GrossThis enslaver didn't own any women.
Callie Nicole GrossI was like, well, your descriptive inventory on the website says, long story short, they're like, well, no, that's wrong.
Callie Nicole GrossI said, okay, well, I'd like to have a copy of the document.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I bought it.
Callie Nicole GrossRemember this?
Callie Nicole GrossWe bought it, and then they sent it, and literally as big as day, and I have to find it.
Callie Nicole GrossIt was huge.
Callie Nicole GrossIt said seven men and one woman.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so, just like the level of erasure that happens to black women historically also happened while we were writing this book.
Callie Nicole GrossThere were black women that were in archival spaces that people were trying to not allow us to see.
Callie Nicole GrossBut we felt like, even though we don't know her name, it was important for us to tell her story and to say that she was there.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd this is a black woman that we know.
Callie Nicole GrossHer enslaver sent them to be a part of the American Revolution, and we wanted her story to be told.
Callie Nicole GrossSo that was.
Callie Nicole GrossThat was triumph, because I was like.
Callie Nicole GrossI felt like we would claim somebody even though we don't know her life, who she is.
Callie Nicole GrossI feel like we were able to tell her story.
Callie Nicole GrossShe's a part of american history.
Callie Nicole GrossWhat about you?
Callie Nicole GrossI think I know yours.
Dinah Ramey BerryHands down.
Dinah Ramey BerryFinding the engraving of Francis Thompson.
Callie Nicole GrossYes, that was huge.
Dinah Ramey BerryFor folks who don't know Francis Thompson was this woman who had testified about being attacked during the Memphis riots in 1866, just after, you know, folks were newly freed.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey were trying to access the right to citizenship and, you know, just like racist white mobs intent on inscribing the racial hierarchy of home.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo she testifies about being brutalized and sexually assaulted.
Dinah Ramey BerryFor Senate committee is one of these pivotal moments, because it's sort of.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt marks this powerful moment where black women are, again going on record to officially say that they did not consent.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, reclaiming their bodies in this different way.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut then after that, she kind of just became, like, Persona non grata.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe was harassed by the police a lot.
Dinah Ramey BerryThere were all these accusations against her for running like a house of disrepute.
Dinah Ramey BerryAlso accused her of being a man in women's clothing.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd so they finally, like, arrest her and subject her to these medical examinations, and they say that she is that.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, she says that she was of double sex and chose to live as a woman.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey said that she was the man and put her in prison.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd so she still, you know, maintained her fight.
Dinah Ramey BerryPeople ask rude questions to her.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe would tell her none of their damn business.
Callie Nicole GrossI love that.
Callie Nicole GrossNone of your damn business.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe died shortly after, and I was, you know, looking around trying to find her.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd I tell this story all the time.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, I never.
Dinah Ramey BerryA lot of people who use, like, ebay archives for documents, rare documents that people have that they sometimes auction off.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, I never looked at it before or since, and I somehow randomly, like, found myself on the site, typed her name, and lo and behold, somebody with a copy of the dean's doings from 1876 with the etchings of Francis Thompson in there.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's crazy.
Callie Nicole GrossI know, but you know what that's like?
Callie Nicole GrossIsn't that weird how black women, or black history in general, is, like, in thrift shops, at auctions, like, you know, literally, I mean, like, again, right, right.
Dinah Ramey BerryIn your auntie's basement, your family Bible, all these things, right?
Dinah Ramey BerryPeople have these documents.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo it was super.
Dinah Ramey BerryThat was one of the big moments for me.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, yes, I know.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd to have the two images was really important, too.
Dinah Ramey BerryYes, it was huge.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo I know that now we're supposed to zip it and engage questions.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo, friends, over to you.
Dinah Ramey BerryWe will look in the chat, or here we go.
Dinah Ramey BerrySee what questions we're supposed to entertain.
Ramunda YoungYes, yes, yes.
Ramunda YoungThank you.
Ramunda YoungThank you.
Ramunda YoungI actually love this format.
Ramunda YoungThere's no one in the world who has the type of insight, back behind the scenes stories that the two authors have.
Callie Nicole GrossSo we haven't done this.
Callie Nicole GrossSo thank you.
Ramunda YoungYeah, yeah.
Ramunda YoungWe try to shake it up a little bit here at mahogany books, for sure.
Ramunda YoungSo that was awesome to really hear what you were thinking and feeling as you were writing different parts of the books.
Ramunda YoungSo one of the questions I have here is from, and I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly, Vidya or Vidya Barnett.
Ramunda YoungHer question is, is there any one particular story or woman that you were able to draw strength from as you were researching their story?
Callie Nicole GrossDo you want to go first?
Dinah Ramey BerryNo, I want you to go back.
Dinah Ramey BerryI think about it.
Callie Nicole GrossOkay, so I'm always going to go to slavery because that's.
Callie Nicole GrossI'm a scholarly enslaved.
Callie Nicole GrossThere are a number of women that I would say.
Callie Nicole GrossOne I would probably go with is Monima.
Callie Nicole GrossI might be saying it wrong.
Callie Nicole GrossI always get.
Callie Nicole GrossI always get tongue tied on her name.
Callie Nicole GrossThis is the McCoy twins mother who fought to have her daughters back when they were taken, you know, around two years old.
Callie Nicole GrossThese are the two conjoined twins that were put on circus and stage and all kinds of people made money off of their bodies and freak shows and all kind of stuff, but their mother never stopped trying to get them back into their possession, into their family.
Callie Nicole GrossThey had, you know, several siblings.
Callie Nicole GrossShe even went to Europe and went to court.
Callie Nicole GrossSo here's a black woman in the 1830s, 1840s, I think it was.
Callie Nicole GrossI don't remember the date right now, who went overseas and went to court to reclaim her children.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I think that was pretty powerful, and it wasn't something that was at all easy to do.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I gained strength from that, like, how to continue to fight.
Callie Nicole GrossWe didn't tell her story too much in here, but sojourner truth is another black woman who went and fought in the court system to get her child back.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, so there's just those kinds of, like, the ride or die kind of attitudes of black women who are not going to stop and not, and also use the law and use the court system and try to operate within that system to gain their rights.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I think that's really motivating.
Callie Nicole GrossNot that I necessarily have a lot of faith in our injustice system, but I'm just saying, whoa, that was a.
Ramunda YoungDeep word right there.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo, I mean, I definitely am.
Dinah Ramey BerryI'm in awe of Mamie till.
Dinah Ramey BerryJust, you know, we'll always be in awe of her having sort of the presence of mind to make this heroic decision and then just learn sort of the backstory.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, we all know what happened to Emmett Till and that his photo, like, helps sort of jolt.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut, you know, she had to, like, deal with the loss of her son.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe had to mobilize local politicians to fight just to get his body back.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe had to go down there.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, they had the cats get nailed shut.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe was getting ready to get a hammer and open up herself.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut she had to do all this fighting even before just even laying him to.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd then going to the trial every day, dealing with the harassment, death threats, just, you know, an incredible, incredible human being.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd I teach.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey used a documentary, the untold story of Emma Lewis till, because she's in the documentary talking, right.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, this thing came out in 2005.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe passed a couple of years earlier.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut it still gives you a sense of the proximity when you talk to students about, like, Emmett Till.
Dinah Ramey BerryI think it was, like, 150 years ago, right?
Callie Nicole GrossThat's cause they're young.
Dinah Ramey BerrySee his mom talking about this in this documentary.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd so that.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo that is really empowering for me.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd then also, it's another mother, actually.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt is Nanny Helen Burroughs motherhood, right.
Dinah Ramey BerryWho actually was formerly enslaved and basically was largely a single mom.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe scraped and scuffled and moved her family from Virginia up into the DC area to try to get, like, a better sort of educational access for, you know, her children wanted to lie.
Dinah Ramey BerryThe father was an itinerant preacher to put away from long periods of time.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, Nanny Helen Burroughs goes on to get her education, to found a school to help educate other generations of folks.
Dinah Ramey BerryShe organizes the National association of Colored Women.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo I'm just.
Dinah Ramey BerryThose two women, I think, are like these anchors for me about what is possible.
Dinah Ramey BerryJust incredible.
Ramunda YoungGood, good.
Ramunda YoungThat's powerful to hear.
Ramunda YoungYou know, their story, especially the one about Mamie, we just see this very veneered type story about her.
Ramunda YoungAnd so to be able to go deeper and kind of get that behind the scenes aspect of who she was as a woman, we don't.
Ramunda YoungWe just hear about em.
Ramunda YoungBut to hear about her is huge.
Ramunda YoungOne of the other questions I have here, it says, what do we need to do to make the study of black history, and in particular black women in history across the diaspora, a more persistent part of high school curriculum and not just an elective or during Black History Month?
Ramunda YoungWhat do we need to do to do to make a change there?
Ramunda YoungLike, it's all on y'all.
Ramunda YoungIt's all on y'all.
Callie Nicole GrossWell, we try, and we're trying in our own ways.
Callie Nicole GrossBy one, we're making this book into a young adult version.
Callie Nicole GrossYes.
Ramunda YoungIs that the news?
Callie Nicole GrossThat's one of the news is.
Callie Nicole GrossOne of the news is.
Callie Nicole GrossNews is a word.
Callie Nicole GrossI don't know if it is tonight.
Callie Nicole GrossOkay.
Callie Nicole GrossIt is.
Callie Nicole GrossIt is for me right now.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah.
Callie Nicole GrossSo we are.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's going to come out probably in the fall of 2022.
Callie Nicole GrossTanya Bolden is the adapter, and some of you may be familiar with her work.
Callie Nicole GrossSo that's one way.
Callie Nicole GrossBut I would say that that's a loaded question.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's going to take the kind of organizing that we saw in the civil rights movement that we're seeing now with black lives matter, with the anti, you know, looking at issues of.
Callie Nicole GrossOf police reform and all of that.
Callie Nicole GrossLooking at.
Callie Nicole GrossSo how do we get the stories and the history of black folks in school?
Callie Nicole GrossOne, we are slowly becoming electives.
Callie Nicole GrossSo at the k twelve level, there are states that are allowing the ethnic studies requirement.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's a one credit course.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's now an elective.
Callie Nicole GrossYou can do Mexican American and African American.
Callie Nicole GrossIn Texas, where I am, other states are allowing that, and some of them are three credit courses.
Callie Nicole GrossSo that's good.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's a starting point.
Callie Nicole GrossBut really, where we need to go, there's a couple of things.
Callie Nicole GrossOne, we need to get with our state boards of education.
Callie Nicole GrossWe need to get with the standards, the teaching standards, and make sure that black women and black people as a whole are included in the standards of what students need to learn about american history, and that black people have been a part of american history in almost every time period that we have documentation for outside of indigenous people populated before Europeans arrived.
Callie Nicole GrossOkay.
Dinah Ramey BerryPredate the pilgrims.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah, that's what I'm saying.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I think that there's that.
Callie Nicole GrossSo dealing with the school board, getting people to recognize it.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd right now, you can take a us history and some professors and some teachers incorporate the african american experience in that.
Callie Nicole GrossI give all credit to those that do.
Callie Nicole GrossThere's others that they consider that that should be a black history course and not a us history course.
Callie Nicole GrossSo there's a way where we have to look at telling american history from multiple perspectives.
Callie Nicole GrossThat include black people, that include black women.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's what I would say for that.
Dinah Ramey BerryThe only thing I would add is, is that we've also been doing more and more work with teachers themselves, like workshops, with teacher training, and also trying to introduce them to this history to really kind of demonstrate how they can also incorporate it and use it.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut, I mean, I would just echo everything that Diana said.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt's gonna be a prolonged kind of battle, but it's definitely one that we have to do.
Dinah Ramey BerryYeah.
Ramunda YoungAnd I agree with that, too, as a black bookstore owner, just to touch on what Dinah's saying.
Ramunda YoungA lot of people think, oh, it's just black history.
Ramunda YoungAnd we get comments all the time by people that say, oh, these.
Ramunda YoungThese books are just for.
Ramunda YoungFor black people.
Ramunda YoungNo, this.
Ramunda YoungThese books are for every single person to have this knowledge, this history, you know, it creates empathy and knowledge and a whole different base that we're not working with, to be honest right now.
Ramunda YoungBut people want to relegate it to just this.
Ramunda YoungThis community or this audience when it should be for everybody.
Ramunda YoungYou know, I think we had to read so much of everybody else's history, so it should be.
Ramunda YoungAnd we had to develop.
Ramunda YoungRight.
Ramunda YoungHad to develop this sense of empathy towards, you know, so it's not just, oh, black history month or just for, you know, this little extracurricular aspects.
Ramunda YoungIt's for everyone.
Ramunda YoungSo you hit a nerve for me.
Dinah Ramey BerryThere, but I agree.
Ramunda YoungAnother question here is, it says, I recently received a research grant for this summer.
Ramunda YoungHow do we navigate the archives and gatekeepers in the midst of a pandemic with this type of information we're looking for.
Callie Nicole GrossKelly, you want to go all right.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo I have a couple of thoughts about this.
Dinah Ramey BerryFirst is that I do think that there are archivists.
Dinah Ramey BerryArchivists in general are unique people, right?
Dinah Ramey BerrySo you learn to kind of.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou got to find a rhythm with them in general.
Dinah Ramey BerrySometimes I think there's legitimate gatekeeping happening.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd other times I think it's just like you haven't found the language that's working with the archivist.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo I sort of highly recommend reaching out to the archivist early, respectfully introducing yourself.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt's great if you have, like, one of these residency research things.
Dinah Ramey BerryI don't know.
Dinah Ramey BerryI think the question said they had a research grant or something like that.
Ramunda YoungYes.
Dinah Ramey BerryOne of the things I would recommend is, very early on, even if it's just like a little outdoor brown bag lunch session, if you just talk a little bit about your project and what you're interested in and what you're looking for, just before the archivist, it's like a little presentation.
Dinah Ramey BerryCould be 1520 minutes.
Dinah Ramey BerryI did that when I was in residence for weeks after.
Dinah Ramey BerryDifferent archivists would be coming up to me with records that I hadn't thought about or that they knew, you know, because they know these collections, right?
Dinah Ramey BerryThey know where some of these things are.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo that's one of the approaches that I would just sort of say.
Dinah Ramey BerryThe other thing is you have to also take, you know, Doctor Berry's sort of example, the heart, too, and just keep doggedly pressing forward to see the documents.
Dinah Ramey BerryLook through it yourself.
Dinah Ramey BerryDouble and triple check.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut it is going to be intense with the pandemic now.
Dinah Ramey BerryI think some of them are opening up.
Callie Nicole GrossThey are.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo you can get in some.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt will be interesting to see, as summer progresses, how much more open they will go.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut I know, Diane, I'll just add.
Callie Nicole GrossThat, you know, there's some of the.
Callie Nicole GrossSome of the blame that archivists get is unfair, because if you look at when an archive was created, the problem is for, at least for black history, we just weren't part of the inventories.
Callie Nicole GrossLike when they were describing, when they were drafting these documents, they weren't saying that.
Callie Nicole GrossOh, yeah.
Callie Nicole GrossThey were looking at the donors and the donor families.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd maybe in there was buried a story of a black person, you know, the housekeeper or the enslaved person, you know, what have you.
Callie Nicole GrossThey're buried in there.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so I would say you have to look at the original records.
Callie Nicole GrossDon't.
Callie Nicole GrossI mean, they might send you the digitized, but you want to see what's in the margins.
Callie Nicole GrossBecause sometimes black history is just in the margins.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd sometimes we find our stories in the margins of these records.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd when you look at digitization, because it may be not a part of the original record, that they won't scan that part.
Callie Nicole GrossSo even if you have a document and they say, oh, well, we have it on microfilm, or we have it.
Callie Nicole GrossHere's a.
Callie Nicole GrossHere's a copy.
Callie Nicole GrossI say, I'd like to see the original, please.
Callie Nicole GrossUnless it's out of circulation, they can't let you see it.
Callie Nicole GrossPush to see the original.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's something that both of our advisors trained us to do.
Callie Nicole GrossAlways ask for the original and then writing ahead of time, giving them as much detail as you're comfortable with before you come, so that they can have stuff ready for you if you can physically go there.
Callie Nicole GrossIf not, ask if they can loan or send or send you the digital copy until you can get there.
Callie Nicole GrossBut communication is key, and most archivists, sometimes they're learning with you.
Callie Nicole GrossThe best archivists are those that go on the journey with you.
Callie Nicole GrossLike Doctor Grosso keeps.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, they'll be thinking about it after they've met with you, and they'll keep bringing you stuff.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd, like, I have some really great relationships with archivists all over the country, both of us do, from just working in the archives and being there and letting them know that we're serious researchers.
Callie Nicole GrossSo letting them know.
Callie Nicole GrossLet them know.
Callie Nicole GrossI'm on fellowship.
Callie Nicole GrossI'm here for this.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, I'm not big to drop names or anything like that, but let them know that you're a serious researcher when you come and that you're there and you want some support.
Ramunda YoungHave you gone back to any of those archivists and held up your book and said, look what I did with all this time that I've been here.
Callie Nicole GrossI can't wait.
Callie Nicole GrossI can't wait.
Callie Nicole GrossI am ready to get on an airplane when it's safe and go do that.
Ramunda YoungYeah.
Ramunda YoungI can only imagine what they may feel just being in communication with you throughout that journey like that.
Ramunda YoungYeah.
Ramunda YoungAnother question that I personally have.
Ramunda YoungSo, you guys, I'm going to put on my Cali hat.
Ramunda YoungJust referencing what you said earlier.
Ramunda YoungShe kind of goes to the dark side.
Ramunda YoungBut we talked about the women who, you know, were triumphant to you.
Ramunda YoungWhat, was there any story here that really infuriated you?
Ramunda YoungWas you uncovered the research?
Dinah Ramey BerryWas that.
Ramunda YoungWas there any of those feelings as you went on this journey?
Ramunda YoungOr was it all just like, okay, this is good.
Callie Nicole GrossNo, my black female enslavers or slaveholders, I think.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I, you know, remember really struggling about writing about that, because I think people misunderstand and they over exaggerate, and they blame black people for slavery because we.
Callie Nicole GrossBecause if any of us owned any of us, then we're responsible, and slavery is known void.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I was like, we remember we talked about this.
Callie Nicole GrossWe were like, we gotta find a way to have this discussion.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd somebody didn't like the fact that we said, you know, maybe it was an editor or something, not our editor, but we said something like, this is a hard conversation to have.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd they're like, take that out.
Callie Nicole GrossLike it's too commentary.
Callie Nicole GrossI was like, no, but then the reader, we wanted the reader to know that this was a hard part for us to write.
Callie Nicole GrossI think that's it.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd just.
Callie Nicole GrossBut then trying to teach the readers that there's a variety of ways in which black people own black people or enslaved black people.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd some of it was about reclaiming family so that they couldn't get out of slavery.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd I'm still trying to figure out the numbers.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's just, we don't have the stats on how many.
Callie Nicole GrossBut people use that one fact and say, hey, you know, why are black people mad about slavery?
Callie Nicole GrossThey enslave themselves.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd that's just something we wanted to try to address.
Callie Nicole GrossSo that was hard.
Callie Nicole GrossParticularly the ones that did own large amounts of enslaved people and treated them as chattel slaves.
Callie Nicole GrossThat was hard.
Dinah Ramey BerrySure.
Dinah Ramey BerryI think mine is the story of the black wax, the women's army corps.
Dinah Ramey BerryOnce they open up and women are allowed to serve, you have recruiters and black women who were interested in nursing actually going to enlist, one.
Callie Nicole GrossRight.
Dinah Ramey BerryTo support the country.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey imagine that they're going to serve, and also because they're told that they'll obtain training, right.
Dinah Ramey BerryMedical training and things.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey're interested in nursing that they could use even after they test.
Dinah Ramey BerryOf course, the white women wax are the ones receive the medical training.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd the black women's arbitrary officers are basically left to, like, mop up the floors, change bed pants, and this sort of thing.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo they are infuriated and actually go on strike.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, they get threatened with the court martial.
Dinah Ramey BerryA bunch of them go back.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut there's a core of the black women who say that they'll suffer and they'll face a court martial.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey actually are court martials.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd then the black community is enraged because these are, you know, young women who do this admirable thing that, you know, is joining the serve.
Dinah Ramey BerryThey told that they're going to receive this training, then they're relegated to this other work.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo Thurgood Montrose actually had signed on to present them on an appeal.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo the army at that point is having, like, you know, they're trying to just get out of this thing.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt's a pr nightmare, right?
Dinah Ramey BerryYou just want to wait out.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo they find, like, a technicality to basically void the court martial.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight?
Dinah Ramey BerrySo.
Dinah Ramey BerryBut the women just go back to the exact same conditions that they had been fighting and protesting.
Dinah Ramey BerryMy heart broke for them because, you know, they joined in this thing, you know, signed on with this optimism and this earnestness to serve and to learn, and they just were totally exploited.
Dinah Ramey BerryEven after they fought an uphill battle and faced the court martial and everything, you know, they still ended up being returned to those positions where they were basically like the cleanup crew on the.
Ramunda YoungIt's crazy.
Ramunda YoungSo we have time for just two more questions here really quickly.
Ramunda YoungOne from Sabrina.
Ramunda YoungShe asked, did you split the chapters between the both of you, or did you both work on each chapter from research to writing?
Ramunda YoungWhat was your process?
Callie Nicole GrossWe worked on it together.
Callie Nicole GrossThe thing that was nice about the book is that we have two different areas of strength.
Callie Nicole GrossLike, my work is obviously early 19th century, and hers is late 19th century forward, so that really helped.
Callie Nicole GrossBut we both have been teaching black women's history throughout the whole time period.
Callie Nicole GrossWe teach us history throughout both time periods.
Callie Nicole GrossSo our expertise in black women is more specific to specific time periods.
Callie Nicole GrossBut we worked together.
Callie Nicole GrossIt was collaborative.
Callie Nicole GrossWe would share stuff back and forth.
Callie Nicole GrossThere were parts where one person would write a paragraph, the other person would tighten it up, and then vice versa.
Callie Nicole GrossSo it was very, very collaborative experience for us.
Ramunda YoungWhat are two or three of your favorite history books?
Ramunda YoungYou know, you guys deep into history.
Ramunda YoungThis question is from Derek.
Ramunda YoungTwo to three of your favorite history books or historians that inspired you?
Ramunda YoungGolly, I know.
Callie Nicole GrossOkay, I can say one.
Callie Nicole GrossOne.
Callie Nicole GrossWell, I'll say one, then.
Callie Nicole GrossThat'll give you time to think of two others.
Callie Nicole GrossI think what inspired me.
Callie Nicole GrossDeborah Gray White's.
Callie Nicole GrossAren't I a woman?
Callie Nicole GrossAs a graduate student, that's what I.
Ramunda YoungWanted to meet you.
Callie Nicole GrossNo, I think every black woman in grad school that went through, you know, when we did that book was earth life changing because we saw ourselves 200 years ago.
Callie Nicole GrossSo that's.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's what I would say about.
Callie Nicole GrossI would say Deborah Gray whites.
Dinah Ramey BerryDefinitely.
Dinah Ramey BerryDeborah Gray whites.
Dinah Ramey BerryAlso.
Dinah Ramey BerryPaula giddings, when and where I enter.
Ramunda YoungYeah, yeah.
Ramunda YoungClassic.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt's a primary source, but Anna Julia Cooper's original work, a voice from the south yes.
Dinah Ramey Berry1893 really sort of lays out.
Dinah Ramey BerryI was thinking about.
Dinah Ramey BerryIt's like an early intersectional, kind of feminist view about the role and the position of black women in America.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo those two are my favorite.
Dinah Ramey BerryI also really like, this will be the last one, and I'll shush.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou got me talking books now.
Callie Nicole GrossHey, I know.
Callie Nicole GrossDon't get us started.
Ramunda YoungI love it.
Dinah Ramey BerryIs Tara Hunter also, I think, a really, really great history, but learned a lot from the book and a lot from.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's good.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's a great book.
Callie Nicole GrossI would go back to a primary book, primary source, the incidents in the life of a slave girl by Harry Jacobs.
Callie Nicole GrossI think that should be required reading along with Frederick Douglass, one of his three autobiographies, or narratives.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd then I would say Ida B.
Callie Nicole GrossWells Red record, even though that's not.
Callie Nicole GrossYeah, those are.
Callie Nicole GrossThose are, like, foundational for us.
Callie Nicole GrossVery foundational books for us.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd when and where I enter was another one.
Callie Nicole GrossSo those are the ones, I would say powerful.
Ramunda YoungSo, in closing, thank you for sharing that.
Ramunda YoungThere are some I need to write down.
Ramunda YoungI'm going to watch the replay and go back and get some of these books that I need to add to my own personal collection.
Ramunda YoungBut what do you.
Ramunda YoungSomeone's like, please list the books.
Ramunda YoungWe will.
Ramunda YoungWell, watch the replay.
Ramunda YoungMiss Butler.
Ramunda YoungPam Butler.
Ramunda YoungSo.
Ramunda YoungOh, Dinah's putting them in.
Ramunda YoungShe's so good, professor.
Ramunda YoungBut I was going to say, just in closing, what do you want young women to walk away with once they read this book, when they get this book in their hands, whether they're teens or not, but.
Ramunda YoungOr young, you know, what do you want them to walk away with when they read this powerful book.
Callie Nicole GrossI'm typing?
Callie Nicole GrossSo I'm going to let you go first.
Dinah Ramey BerryYou know, it's a great question.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo I wrote this book with my own daughter in mind.
Ramunda YoungAnd how old is she, Callie.
Ramunda YoungHow old is she?
Dinah Ramey BerryEleven.
Ramunda YoungOkay.
Dinah Ramey BerryEleven.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd so I really do want.
Dinah Ramey BerryI really thought a lot about what I wanted her to learn.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd basically what I want them to see is the beauty, the beautiful expanse of black womanhood, right.
Dinah Ramey BerryIn every iteration.
Dinah Ramey BerryAnd I mean that literally from, like, phenotypically, right, the beautiful, blackest berry.
Dinah Ramey BerryRight, to all the other gradations on that.
Dinah Ramey BerryI wanted to embrace that.
Dinah Ramey BerryI wanted her to see beautiful images of dark complexion black women.
Dinah Ramey BerryI wanted her to see images of women who were educated, who were athletes, who are artists, women who had been incarcerated, wanted queer.
Dinah Ramey BerryI just wanted it all.
Dinah Ramey BerryWomen who were holiness creatures, right?
Dinah Ramey BerryWomen who were sex workers.
Dinah Ramey BerryLike, I just wanted her to see the expanse of black womanhood because it was important for us to include the triumph as well as the people who didn't, because that represents the joyous totality of our experience.
Dinah Ramey BerryEven when someone isn't able to overcome an obstacle, we still learn from that.
Dinah Ramey BerrySo I guess that's the thing that wanted her to just be able to read this book and see the full expanse of all that we are and what we can accomplish when we organize what we've come through.
Ramunda YoungMmm.
Callie Nicole GrossThat's good.
Ramunda YoungGood.
Ramunda YoungThat's good.
Callie Nicole GrossMine's easy.
Callie Nicole GrossI think I wrote it thinking about the book that I wish I had read as a little girl, because I grew up in a predominantly white community in northern California, but my family was from the east coast, and, you know, I had black culture, and I'm very confident of who I was as a black person, as a young black girl.
Callie Nicole GrossBut I never saw myself at school.
Callie Nicole GrossI never saw myself at the career day.
Callie Nicole GrossI never saw myself in the books that we read.
Callie Nicole GrossSo I have a son, but we.
Callie Nicole GrossAt his school, I've always talked at his school, and I've always made sure that his classrooms had books that.
Callie Nicole GrossWith people that looked like me and just multiracial, multi.
Callie Nicole GrossI would buy books for his school classroom so that there wasn't just, you know, so they would.
Callie Nicole GrossSo that all the kids in his classroom would see people that look like them, people that had two moms, people that had two dads.
Callie Nicole GrossYou know, I would try to find reading at that grade level for them.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd so I think that would.
Callie Nicole GrossThat was, for me, I was thinking, like, what would I have done to have had a book like this?
Callie Nicole GrossAnd that was where that motivated me.
Ramunda YoungAnd so now, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of girls and boys will have access, especially for the young reader version, I think will be just so powerful.
Ramunda YoungAnd I do hope that a lot of schools pick up that edition and put it into these kids hands and make it required.
Ramunda YoungThat's the kicker.
Ramunda YoungAnd somebody asked a question earlier, how do we make this text required?
Ramunda YoungBut even if the schools don't require it, as parents, how do we get it into the kids hands and know how powerful it is?
Ramunda YoungSo I'm excited that you guys are doing this.
Ramunda YoungI can't wait to get that into the hands of all of our readers that come into mahogany books.
Ramunda YoungI'm just honored to have both of you here in conversation tonight.
Ramunda YoungSo thank you both.
Ramunda YoungAny last words that you have?
Ramunda YoungI just.
Ramunda YoungI'm honored.
Callie Nicole GrossJust want to say thank you for having us.
Callie Nicole GrossThank you for celebrating our work and black women's history.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd you know, we're going to support.
Callie Nicole GrossWe've always supported black bookstores.
Callie Nicole GrossI'm happy to know that you have a second location.
Callie Nicole GrossCongratulations.
Callie Nicole GrossAnd the next time, my husband's from DC, so the next time we come to DC, we will definitely come and see you all.
Ramunda YoungAbsolutely.
Ramunda YoungThank you.
Ramunda YoungThank you both for that.
Dinah Ramey BerryThanks so much for this opportunity.
Dinah Ramey BerryThank you for supporting black women's history, and thank you for making black books matter.
Ramunda YoungHey, absolutely.
Ramunda YoungThank you, everyone, for coming tonight.
Ramunda YoungThank you, you so much.
Ramunda YoungHave a great evening and a great week.
Ramunda YoungTake care.
Ramunda YoungTake care.
Ramunda YoungTake care.
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