The Rhythms of Black Narratives: From Cultural Touchstones to Literary Heritage

[00:00:00] Welcome to the MahoganyBooks Podcast Network, your gateway to the world of African American

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[00:00:47] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. How are you guys doing today? Good, good, good.

[00:00:54] Good energy in the crowd today. This is going to be an exciting event. I do want to welcome you

[00:01:00] all to our to MahoganyBooks, our author talk featuring Hanif Abdurraqib as well as a

[00:01:07] conversationist, Jason Reynolds. A little bit about who we are. Who's here familiar

[00:01:14] with MahoganyBooks? Love it. Thank you. Wasn't expecting that. But I appreciate it.

[00:01:24] So MahoganyBooks is owned by my wife and I. We founded it in 2007. The lady back there,

[00:01:31] give her a hand. It was founded in 2007 as a online bookstore first. I am from here

[00:01:43] I'm from southeast DC, grew up in the area. So I'm very familiar with the impact of

[00:01:48] bookstores in our community. The thing though was not everyone has access to these

[00:01:54] type of books. My wife who is from Tulsa, Oklahoma didn't have access to, I said

[00:01:58] okay Oklahoma had in the crowd. She didn't have access to these type of

[00:02:03] bookstores. So what we wanted to do was to in 2007 create an online website

[00:02:08] that made these types of books accessible to everyone across the

[00:02:11] country wherever you were. Everyone should have access to these books. The

[00:02:16] other thing that was really important for us was to nights like this to

[00:02:20] make writers of this caliber accessible to the community wherever you are. So

[00:02:27] DC is fantastic from DC but we should have author events here in PG County as

[00:02:32] well. So being able to partner with incredible partners like Doxing Hill

[00:02:38] Library that I used as a kid when I was down in Forest Heights I was I

[00:02:43] think doing a report maybe that's all supposed to be doing was a report

[00:02:47] but it's incredible to be able to partner with these type of organizations to make

[00:02:52] sure you guys have access to incredible writers like Hanif and Jason. So I

[00:02:58] just want to thank you guys for coming out to attend this event. It's

[00:03:01] gonna be fun, it's gonna be fantastic. Just please enjoy yourself. We are

[00:03:05] recording for our podcast so just you know if you're supposed to be at work

[00:03:09] maybe not you know yell your name out or whatever but we're going to

[00:03:15] have a good time. So what I want to do is first bring out our conversation host

[00:03:19] Jason Reynolds and I have, there you go, go ahead. I have a little bit about him here.

[00:03:30] Jason Reynolds is a number one New York Times best-selling author of many

[00:03:35] award-winning books including Look Both Ways, A Tale Told in Ten Blocks and

[00:03:40] Stunt Boy in the meantime. He's a recipient of the Newberry Honor, a

[00:03:45] Prince Honor, an NWCP Image Award and multiple Coretta Scott King honors.

[00:03:50] Please welcome out Jason Reynolds. All right and the man of the hour, the

[00:04:04] person we're here to see whose book just hit the shelves this week, everyone

[00:04:08] is loving it, Hanif Abdurraqib. Hanif is a poet, essayist and a cultural

[00:04:15] critic from Columbus, Ohio and the recipient of a MacArthur Foundation

[00:04:19] Genius Grant. His most recent book, A Little Devil in America was the winner of

[00:04:24] the Carnegie Medal and the Gordon Burns Prize and a finalist for the National

[00:04:29] Book Award. Please welcome Hanif. Hey everybody. What's happening everybody?

[00:04:45] Y'all good? Can y'all hear me? Like this, Ramonda? Thank you very much. So

[00:04:56] before we get started, let me just say first of all welcome Hanif. Welcome to

[00:05:02] Oxen Hill. It's different this time because this is where I'm from. This is my

[00:05:05] neighborhood. Welcome to Oxen Hill. Welcome to the library. For all

[00:05:09] of you, thank you for coming. I want to say really quickly before we get

[00:05:12] into everything and before you make your remarks, I like to make sure that

[00:05:16] people know that when we do these events, though they're here to

[00:05:19] celebrate the author, though they're here for some discourse and some

[00:05:22] engagement, we also really need y'all to buy the book. I just don't have no shame

[00:05:27] when it comes to this. Like you have to buy the book. Buy a few of them if

[00:05:31] you can afford it. It's all good if you can't. I get it, right? We're in the

[00:05:34] library which is a good thing but we need you to buy the book. It's

[00:05:37] important for those of us who work on this side. It's also important for

[00:05:41] the independent booksellers who work very hard, not just for us but for

[00:05:44] our community. So you got to support as much as you can. This is a sort of

[00:05:48] a cyclical thing. This is a reciprocal relationship that we all have.

[00:05:51] But please, buy the book. All right. That being said, thank you my brother.

[00:05:55] Anything you need to say before we get into it? No, it was great.

[00:05:57] All right. So before we get into all my questions and all of that stuff,

[00:06:03] obviously we want to make sure we hear Hanif read some of this new work.

[00:06:08] Yeah. One, it's so good to be here with you and there's a little bit of

[00:06:14] view that lives in this book. There's the part of the school bus thing. I

[00:06:23] talked to you about this, how much I love the school bus trick and there's

[00:06:26] a part of that in here where I kind of take the word gang and kind of

[00:06:28] manipulate it and switch it around. So there's a real part of you

[00:06:33] that lives in this book and it's amazing to kind of think about

[00:06:39] what Ross Gay would call non-citationally fucking around where we

[00:06:42] kind of just pull from our friends and our heroes and place them in the

[00:06:45] text that we make. And so I have a lot of gratitude for you.

[00:06:49] Thank you. You know how I feel about you. I appreciate that.

[00:06:51] Thank you. Y'all heard it.

[00:06:55] I'm gonna read a bit about fire and heartbreak. A friend of mine,

[00:07:03] after LeBron James left Cleveland, there were jerseys burning everywhere

[00:07:07] in Ohio. Everywhere people were throwing jerseys in the trash cans

[00:07:11] on fire. A friend of mine ran out of his house and went to go throw his

[00:07:15] jersey in the trash can that was burning and he pulled it back

[00:07:17] at the last minute and I said, what did you do that for?

[00:07:19] And he pulled it close to him. He said, well, maybe he'll come

[00:07:22] back one day. And I remember thinking that was really sweet and

[00:07:25] tender and also really clarifies this line between heartbreak and

[00:07:30] desire where sometimes we build a world that someone who has left us

[00:07:35] might want to return to even if we know they aren't going to.

[00:07:38] Or in another way, we hold on to the physical remnants of the person

[00:07:44] who's left us because we can perhaps care for those physical remnants

[00:07:46] more effectively than we could care for the person who wants to own

[00:07:48] them. And so I'm gonna read like six, seven minutes of this thing

[00:07:52] about heartbreak and fire and then I'm excited to talk to Jason.

[00:07:57] I'm gonna begin in the middle of a sentence.

[00:07:59] Though I suppose fire is a type of song too. Some might say

[00:08:03] fire is a song that arrives after all the begging has exhausted itself

[00:08:07] and after all those who reasonably asked and prayed and wept,

[00:08:10] rise from their knees and make sense of newly idle hands.

[00:08:13] Don't know what good it is to burn a few cheap jerseys and a pair

[00:08:16] of sneakers with fire. Sure enough gonna have it say one way or another.

[00:08:20] Just let anyone who has ever stood in front of a police precinct

[00:08:23] with fingertips reeking of gasoline wrapped around a bottle,

[00:08:26] a lighter itching in their pockets tell it. Just let anyone taping

[00:08:29] a bomb underneath a car tell it. Just let the niggas who want

[00:08:32] their hood back one way or another tell it but definitely don't ever

[00:08:35] let the gentrifiers tell it and look I'm not placing a value

[00:08:38] or morality judgment on the shit. I suppose it depends on who

[00:08:41] and what is doing the burning and what brought the burning to life.

[00:08:43] But fire is a song, a whole symphony if you allow it to be

[00:08:47] and I don't just mean it sounds the way it disrupts the sky

[00:08:50] with a snapping of fingers rhythmic. If you catch it on the right

[00:08:53] notes I suppose it depends on who and what is doing the burning

[00:08:56] there too but I mean the hands. I mean its makers.

[00:08:59] I mean the things that drag people to its urgent heat

[00:09:03] to watch and spread its gleeful damage.

[00:09:05] There are those who might say fire carries a mercy with it

[00:09:09] which I take to mean that it doesn't prolong the anguish

[00:09:12] in the promised land on the other side of this sometimes

[00:09:14] wretched scroll of miserable spinning days.

[00:09:17] I would guess that the decorum mare will suggest we do not

[00:09:19] ask each other how we died or what dying felt like

[00:09:22] the same way that those who have been locked up don't ask

[00:09:25] people how they got there but the living have thoughts on burning.

[00:09:28] Scientists say it's the worst feeling imaginable at first

[00:09:32] but then nothing. The flame renders the fire quickly

[00:09:36] chews through the nerves and senses rendering the dying person

[00:09:39] without feeling and the dying person they say is transported

[00:09:42] toward a type of ecstasy. Forgive my wandering into

[00:09:45] the fantasies of the no longer living once again

[00:09:47] but I would want to hear from someone who crossed over

[00:09:50] no telling how I'll go whenever I go but I am skeptical

[00:09:53] of anyone living who suggests that any part of dying

[00:09:56] is less painful than it seems in the physical sense

[00:09:59] or otherwise but I want to believe knowing as I do that

[00:10:02] I absolutely one day will have both legs over the fence

[00:10:05] that divides living from whatever comes after and knowing

[00:10:07] as I do that leaping from the top of that fence might

[00:10:10] not be my choice. I would like to believe in this idea

[00:10:13] of ecstasy or at least a moment where there is awareness

[00:10:16] of what consumes us but no physical feeling to attach

[00:10:19] it to. I respect fire like I respect any song

[00:10:22] that bends to the desire of the person who summons it.

[00:10:24] The flame is political of course but it is sometimes

[00:10:27] mundane sometimes romantic sometimes simply a necessity

[00:10:31] and not all necessities are political but some certainly

[00:10:34] are mundane and a few damn sure are something close

[00:10:37] to romantic and speaking of burning for a brief

[00:10:40] candescent moment before there is nothing left

[00:10:42] to be felt. This too is longing. This too is at least

[00:10:46] one stage of heartbreak the earliest stage when any

[00:10:49] damage will do it. It is seductive to watch some shit

[00:10:52] go up in flames even though the burning won't bring

[00:10:54] back anything any of us miss or love but that ain't

[00:10:57] the point. I get why the jerseys burned in Cleveland.

[00:11:00] I get why the men gathered around and sacrificed their

[00:11:02] once beloved garments how quickly can we get past

[00:11:05] the part where we feel everything and cross the other

[00:11:08] threshold gasping and numb. In Oakland in 2009

[00:11:13] black people were asked how could you burn down your

[00:11:15] own neighborhood and in since the end 01 black people

[00:11:17] stood in front of glass bent into a scarred web like

[00:11:20] a wounded moon and they were asked why would you do this

[00:11:22] here on in Bloomington in 2000 white kids turned over

[00:11:25] cars when a basketball coach got fired but no one

[00:11:28] really asked much. In Los Angeles in 1992 black

[00:11:31] folks stared in the news cameras their faces half

[00:11:33] illuminated by the glow from burning buildings

[00:11:35] disrupting the night and someone with a microphone

[00:11:37] asked why here in this place you live here. And

[00:11:40] in 1989 in Tampa in 1980 in Miami in any

[00:11:44] place where black people have been conductors to

[00:11:46] a symphony of fire in any place where there

[00:11:48] were buildings once and then only ash only the

[00:11:51] scent of hot wood or brick or paint the question is

[00:11:53] always about how people could do this to their own

[00:11:56] place and there are many answers and most of them

[00:11:58] are about how none of this shit is ours. You

[00:12:01] have mistaken being in a place for having control

[00:12:04] over it a mistake I've made before but certainly

[00:12:08] did not make with a brick in my hand and a

[00:12:10] bandana over my face and it is harder to sell

[00:12:12] this on the evening news but the fire is a

[00:12:14] baptism the fire says get gone and we can start

[00:12:17] clean and so then what isn't your own can

[00:12:20] become your own if it is all some vast and empty

[00:12:22] burned down nothing at the end of a long night

[00:12:24] and I know this isn't generous to the shop owners

[00:12:27] and the elders who have lived on a block for

[00:12:28] decades and wanted to die on a block that was

[00:12:31] at least close to how they remembered it but

[00:12:33] what can I do to convince you that fire is

[00:12:36] not the villain. And the person who lights a

[00:12:38] match isn't a villain in the people cheering

[00:12:41] while the building burns aren't the villains

[00:12:43] and there are villains surely but they aren't

[00:12:45] here not among the people seeking deliverance

[00:12:48] and the villain is an invention the enemies the

[00:12:51] ones I promised we'd leave behind those are

[00:12:54] inventions but they are inventions born out of

[00:12:56] a heart's breaking. I swear to you I would

[00:12:59] never take to the streets looking to watch

[00:13:00] something burn if my heart were not broken if

[00:13:04] through its breaking I did not need to invent

[00:13:06] an enemy nameless and faceless as a brick

[00:13:08] building or a glass window woven through

[00:13:11] almost every story of heartbreak there is a

[00:13:13] villain even if the name isn't spoken out

[00:13:14] loud or even if through a retelling of the

[00:13:16] damage a person smiles and reassures their

[00:13:18] audience that there are no hard feelings tell

[00:13:20] me you haven't invented a reason to transform

[00:13:23] the beloved into the wretched at least one

[00:13:25] time to yourself in the quiet of a dark room

[00:13:28] when the weight of loneliness demands you

[00:13:29] find a target at least for now at the start

[00:13:32] of it all I have been sad and I have not

[00:13:34] wanted to look directly into the light of

[00:13:36] that sadness and so I have distracted myself

[00:13:38] with the manufacturing of villainous moments

[00:13:40] from a person I loved and certainly still love

[00:13:43] I may never speak these imagined moments out

[00:13:45] loud but I cling to them the time they

[00:13:47] accidentally broke a picture frame holding a

[00:13:48] photo of my mother as a living smiling younger

[00:13:51] woman I can for this exercise convince myself

[00:13:54] that this was a larger character flaw they were

[00:13:56] always so clumsy after all and inconsiderate

[00:13:58] surely they never really listened to me when

[00:14:00] I talked about things that interested me right

[00:14:02] probably I guess that's bad enough I can't

[00:14:04] believe I wasted my time with such a selfish

[00:14:06] person and I'm mad at them now not for

[00:14:09] leaving but for being here in the first place

[00:14:12] and forgive me but I love the pure spectacle

[00:14:14] of a people newly in pain or newly feeling

[00:14:16] rejection how hurt flows into rage one body

[00:14:19] of water tumbling into another larger body

[00:14:22] of water in the summer of 2010 amidst the

[00:14:25] burning of old fabric I didn't know if I

[00:14:27] believe LeBron James to be a villain but

[00:14:29] I relish watching the rationalizations of my

[00:14:31] pals all of them imaginations and overdrive

[00:14:34] watching game five of the Celtic series

[00:14:36] to attempt to determine exactly when LeBron

[00:14:38] quit on the team when he decided he was

[00:14:40] leaving even when there was a series still

[00:14:43] to be won one pal of mine watched tape of

[00:14:45] the third quarter of game five all through

[00:14:47] August a quarter where LeBron went two for

[00:14:49] seven and my pal would mumble that was it

[00:14:53] he was trying to lose just wanted to get

[00:14:55] the fuck out of here sooner this I think

[00:14:58] is a strange but necessary subplot of

[00:15:01] heartbreak one that is easiest for me to

[00:15:03] access when I've been rejected when I am

[00:15:05] back at the doorstep of a familiar pain

[00:15:07] it isn't so much that if you see something

[00:15:09] enough you begin to believe it it's that

[00:15:11] the belief is already there already planted

[00:15:14] in waiting to be ignited by seeing in

[00:15:16] the seeing could be anything one

[00:15:18] missed shot or one forgotten return

[00:15:20] phone call or one kiss that didn't feel

[00:15:23] like the others if I watched the game

[00:15:25] five footage long enough I could easily

[00:15:26] convince myself I was watching someone

[00:15:28] give up not just on a game but also a

[00:15:30] team a city of people and then we have

[00:15:34] an enemy and I cannot love an enemy at

[00:15:38] least not out loud out loud I curse my

[00:15:41] enemies I only want them back in the

[00:15:43] silent hours

[00:15:49] sorry I forgot that I'm borrowing

[00:15:51] Jason's book belongs to me

[00:15:55] you know thank you you know it's

[00:15:58] interesting I was when I was preparing

[00:16:00] for this I realized that I didn't

[00:16:01] want to be over prepared because we

[00:16:04] have done this before yeah and I

[00:16:05] thought to myself well I could do

[00:16:08] all of the like you know super

[00:16:12] pseudo intelligent stuff or I could read

[00:16:17] the book and ask a few lobs some some

[00:16:21] open some abstract questions which is

[00:16:24] what I prefer with you especially and

[00:16:27] kind of just see what happens I just

[00:16:29] like talking to you yeah right so for

[00:16:30] me I'm like you know you see you

[00:16:32] people you like I just want to talk to

[00:16:33] you bro I know we supposed to talk

[00:16:34] about this and we will stop you

[00:16:35] know I mean but I just want to talk

[00:16:37] to you we talk as though there is

[00:16:38] no one here I just want to talk to

[00:16:40] you but I do have a few questions

[00:16:41] because they did not come to hear us

[00:16:43] talk so I do want to ask a few

[00:16:45] questions and I always last time I

[00:16:47] saw you we were doing something

[00:16:48] Baltimore about for the yeah yeah

[00:16:50] but a performance and I asked you

[00:16:52] like what's an essay you remember

[00:16:53] that question I was like what's it

[00:16:54] was it was my first essay so for

[00:16:56] this one I think I want to start

[00:16:58] with like to you right which is all

[00:17:02] that really matters right to you what

[00:17:04] exactly is Ascension like what does

[00:17:08] it mean yeah so last night I I was

[00:17:11] trying to explain not very well that

[00:17:13] I think largely people begin to think

[00:17:16] of Ascension as only ascending upward

[00:17:20] but I also think Ascension is about

[00:17:21] with in perhaps growing outward I

[00:17:24] think it's just a directional

[00:17:25] movement that moves you away from

[00:17:27] whatever the position you held before

[00:17:28] it was which is a central question

[00:17:31] of the book which is what does making

[00:17:33] it actually mean you know my barber

[00:17:38] got gentrified out of his old spot

[00:17:40] right sure as as happens in the

[00:17:43] hellscape that we are in and my

[00:17:45] barber decided to make a corner of

[00:17:49] his basement is new barbershop right

[00:17:52] and some would say that is a

[00:17:55] downward motion because he lost a

[00:17:57] brick and mortar shop and had to

[00:17:59] transform his home into a barbershop

[00:18:02] that has that sees less clients and

[00:18:03] sees the clients he truly loves and he

[00:18:05] goes to work without leaving his house

[00:18:07] and his kids get to watch him do a

[00:18:10] thing he loves and so he has made it

[00:18:11] to me he is on his own clock he's on

[00:18:14] his own time he is working out of his

[00:18:16] own home doing what he loves alongside

[00:18:17] the people he loves that to me is

[00:18:18] making it whereas some I think we

[00:18:20] consider making it having a brick

[00:18:21] and mortar in a neighborhood that

[00:18:23] you maybe don't love and you have to

[00:18:24] leave your house to drive to and

[00:18:25] everybody looks at you like you

[00:18:27] don't belong there until you

[00:18:28] actually do not belong there right

[00:18:30] and so acting in opposition to that

[00:18:32] is making it I think that is a form

[00:18:35] of ascension I think it is just a

[00:18:39] question of direction it's trying to

[00:18:42] upset the word of ascension as

[00:18:44] something that only means upward

[00:18:45] trajectory because so many of the ways

[00:18:47] that upward trajectory are defined are

[00:18:48] western and I think violent and

[00:18:51] hostile towards those who don't fit

[00:18:52] a model of western trajectories

[00:18:55] I it's interesting right because I I

[00:19:02] would agree with with now I agree now

[00:19:04] right it's not what it's not what I

[00:19:05] would have thought but I but it is

[00:19:07] something to consider right because I

[00:19:08] think the story the stories or all

[00:19:10] of the sort of work in this book the

[00:19:11] essays and your thoughts they to me

[00:19:15] you always seem like a person

[00:19:17] interested in like less about

[00:19:19] elevation and more about expansion

[00:19:23] yeah right even in the way that

[00:19:24] the essays are all about the

[00:19:26] essays are often constructed and

[00:19:28] architected and I'm really trying hard

[00:19:30] not to ask the cliche question that

[00:19:32] every single person who interviews you

[00:19:33] asks which is always about sort of

[00:19:35] like oh Anif how do you take this

[00:19:38] and this and this and put right

[00:19:40] like how do you it's a thing that

[00:19:41] every single interviewer and I know

[00:19:43] you've been dealing with it for a

[00:19:44] very long time and it has become it

[00:19:46] has become a bit of a calling card

[00:19:47] where it's like I know that when I

[00:19:48] get a book with your name on it so

[00:19:50] do these people who have read other

[00:19:51] works of yours we know that we're

[00:19:53] about to go on some journey that

[00:19:54] feels right tangential and then like

[00:19:57] you know like it like a good

[00:19:58] musician right it always comes back

[00:20:00] to the one right always and then

[00:20:02] and then you have this moment is

[00:20:03] the seemingly epiphanic moment in the

[00:20:05] whole time he knows what he's all

[00:20:07] like you know Geppetto in the thing

[00:20:08] right and so I think my question in

[00:20:11] all of that is I'm not interested

[00:20:13] necessarily in like all of the dots

[00:20:15] that you connect but I am interested

[00:20:17] on how you know where to start

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[00:21:10] work oh yeah well there's some

[00:21:21] slight things around building a

[00:21:23] central planet for other planets

[00:21:25] to orbit around for example

[00:21:27] I know people haven't read the

[00:21:28] book or most of you probably

[00:21:29] haven't read the book but it

[00:21:30] begins with the line about

[00:21:32] enemies right this idea of the

[00:21:33] opening line of the book is you

[00:21:34] will surely forgive me if I

[00:21:35] begin this brief time we have

[00:21:36] together by talking about our

[00:21:37] enemies but I needed actually just

[00:21:40] to get to my father I needed to

[00:21:42] get there's this image of my

[00:21:43] father who was bald headed and

[00:21:45] eating and sweating while he eats

[00:21:47] because in order to get to that

[00:21:49] that is a central image because

[00:21:50] the whole central conceit of the

[00:21:52] pregame the first part of the

[00:21:53] book is about beginning to

[00:21:55] something and then slowly

[00:21:56] watching it diminish be it hair

[00:21:58] be it your ability to run fast

[00:22:00] be it your love for a place that

[00:22:03] is a central thesis of the book

[00:22:05] but my father's bald head is

[00:22:07] actually what revolves around

[00:22:08] that we're talking about

[00:22:09] absence perhaps not or impermanence

[00:22:11] not absence but in order to do

[00:22:13] that I had to say okay oh I

[00:22:17] thought I didn't have to say the

[00:22:18] rules I'm sure Derek Ramunda

[00:22:21] y'all probably should have said

[00:22:22] the rules I would have said

[00:22:23] I'm fine with it answer the

[00:22:24] question let's talk put on a

[00:22:26] speakerphone don't nobody want

[00:22:28] to hear your conversation I do

[00:22:30] if he hears your conversation

[00:22:32] you're going to become a plot

[00:22:33] point in the next essay

[00:22:35] I don't mind here's the thing

[00:22:37] I've I've I don't want to get

[00:22:41] a whole thing about phones

[00:22:42] never mind see the thing he's

[00:22:45] been considering it is last year

[00:22:48] I wrote thousands and thousands

[00:22:49] of words on the appearance of

[00:22:50] phones and pop songs I've been

[00:22:51] thinking about phones and

[00:22:52] pop songs I've been thinking

[00:22:53] about phones a long time but in

[00:22:54] terms of this book there's a

[00:22:55] whole thing of the idea of

[00:22:57] saying let's discuss our

[00:22:58] enemies and also a major conceded

[00:23:00] this book was because I knew

[00:23:01] that was going to be a first

[00:23:02] line I dreamed up that first

[00:23:03] line in 2018 but what that

[00:23:04] does is I don't want that

[00:23:06] kind of second person affect

[00:23:07] to go away and so I think

[00:23:09] the maybe hardest thing in

[00:23:10] this book was writing through

[00:23:11] it using the second person

[00:23:13] with enough consistency to

[00:23:14] continue to say you we and

[00:23:16] our in a way that wasn't I

[00:23:19] don't think that wasn't

[00:23:20] overwhelming but I needed to

[00:23:21] say here are our enemies and

[00:23:22] the way we know our enemies is

[00:23:23] because they disrupt our

[00:23:25] affections they disrupt anyone

[00:23:27] who disrupts our ability to

[00:23:28] do close watching is an

[00:23:30] enemy speaking of close

[00:23:31] watching when I was a boy I

[00:23:32] watched my father eat so you

[00:23:34] maybe even forgot about the

[00:23:35] conceit of the enemy because

[00:23:37] you're like oh now we're

[00:23:38] talking about his dad but I

[00:23:39] needed to get to my father's

[00:23:40] head in order to tell the

[00:23:41] story of James Brown the

[00:23:43] Fab Five and eventually Lebron

[00:23:46] James right because it's easy

[00:23:48] and perhaps like funnier to

[00:23:49] be honest with you but I

[00:23:50] think it's a lot harder to

[00:23:51] say you're now thinking about

[00:23:53] impermanence like we're not

[00:23:54] even talking about Lebron

[00:23:55] James's hair as anything

[00:23:56] important we're talking about

[00:23:58] having something and the fact

[00:23:59] that there's a countdown clock

[00:24:01] which suggests like the

[00:24:02] entire book is going to be

[00:24:03] about beginning somewhere and

[00:24:04] watching something slowly

[00:24:05] diminish which is a massive

[00:24:08] heartbreak that we are

[00:24:11] required to endure if we

[00:24:12] love if we love anyone and

[00:24:14] even if we don't love

[00:24:15] anyone we're going to have

[00:24:16] to endure it and we're going

[00:24:17] to have to endure it and

[00:24:18] we're going to have to

[00:24:19] endure it and even if we

[00:24:20] love anyone we're going to

[00:24:21] have to endure it and we're

[00:24:22] going to have to endure it

[00:24:23] and even if we don't love

[00:24:24] anyone we are living a

[00:24:25] fucking life you know I mean

[00:24:26] like that is the heartbreak

[00:24:27] that we are required to face

[00:24:28] all the time and so to

[00:24:29] confront it repeatedly in

[00:24:30] the book in a way that

[00:24:31] wasn't harsh I had to find

[00:24:32] a single planet I could orbit

[00:24:33] those around and it began

[00:24:34] with my father it's funny

[00:24:35] because the the first essay

[00:24:36] the motif around the ball

[00:24:37] head I'm gonna get a date

[00:24:38] real quick so nice talk

[00:24:39] brother do your thing I mean

[00:24:40] answer phones eat dates do

[00:24:41] whatever you want to do

[00:24:42] does anyone else need to

[00:24:43] break their fast other than

[00:24:44] me yeah you know I mean it's

[00:24:47] a family affair yeah I do

[00:24:51] I do you think don't let

[00:24:53] your blood sugar drop it's

[00:24:55] important health health is

[00:24:56] wealth I do I do think that

[00:24:59] the motif around baldness

[00:25:01] was brilliant and it's funny

[00:25:02] because I was thinking about

[00:25:03] all the other things that

[00:25:04] you know it's weird right

[00:25:05] we would have to rise

[00:25:06] everything right so like you

[00:25:07] you talk about a ball head

[00:25:08] and then the reader me

[00:25:09] right I do the everything

[00:25:11] that we read we're like

[00:25:12] you're a part of the

[00:25:13] thing right like we make

[00:25:14] the thing we give it to

[00:25:15] you you read the thing and

[00:25:16] then in the reading of it

[00:25:17] you're a part of the thing

[00:25:18] and whatever you got going

[00:25:19] or you project onto the

[00:25:20] thing and then if the art is

[00:25:21] good we get to sort of build

[00:25:22] new things that may exist or

[00:25:24] may not exist in the heart

[00:25:25] and mind of the person who

[00:25:26] made the original thing right

[00:25:28] so I'm reading I'm reading

[00:25:29] the thing about the baldness

[00:25:30] right now I'm like damn ball

[00:25:31] head got a whole lot of

[00:25:32] there's just so much to pull

[00:25:33] from yeah right like the

[00:25:35] idea of recession right in

[00:25:36] the receding hairline the

[00:25:37] impermanence of it all the

[00:25:38] idea that once it is all

[00:25:39] gone there is still a shine

[00:25:41] right the idea of like the

[00:25:42] idea that everybody is

[00:25:43] the idea of like the idea

[00:25:44] that everybody I know with a

[00:25:45] bald head everybody I know

[00:25:46] who got who like was losing

[00:25:47] their head had the shape of

[00:25:49] a head meant for it to be

[00:25:50] bald I don't want to put

[00:25:52] one spot but I know my

[00:25:54] brother Clint I love you

[00:25:55] brother like Clint Clint is

[00:25:57] like built for you know I

[00:25:58] mean like bro you have never

[00:26:00] seen a man with a bald

[00:26:02] head by force not a bald

[00:26:04] head by choice yeah because

[00:26:06] those heads never really

[00:26:07] work out Tyrese but a

[00:26:09] bald head by force now I'm

[00:26:10] just like thinking about

[00:26:11] black men and all of them

[00:26:12] like a boy a man who has

[00:26:14] lost his hair by by nature

[00:26:17] always got the perfect shape

[00:26:18] hair for a bald head right

[00:26:20] and I thought about that

[00:26:21] right like this idea of this

[00:26:24] idea of like I don't know

[00:26:27] like because I hate the

[00:26:28] idea I don't like the idea

[00:26:29] that like oh everything kind

[00:26:30] of happens for a reason but

[00:26:31] this idea that for whatever

[00:26:33] reason things tend to be what

[00:26:36] they are because they are

[00:26:37] like because they are right

[00:26:39] and and I think like even

[00:26:40] even thinking about you

[00:26:41] talking about your foot the

[00:26:42] sweat on your father's head

[00:26:43] yeah and the amount of

[00:26:44] attention that it takes right

[00:26:47] to recognize that every time

[00:26:48] your father eats there's a

[00:26:49] little bit of sweat that that

[00:26:50] sort of beads up on his head

[00:26:52] that falls behind his ear

[00:26:53] right like all of this stuff

[00:26:54] that you're noticing you

[00:26:55] know these are all the

[00:26:56] things that I for me at

[00:26:57] least while talking about

[00:26:58] losing something we always

[00:27:01] tend to see them more cutely

[00:27:03] yeah it all seems to be to

[00:27:05] me they are all seems to to

[00:27:07] come to life in a much more

[00:27:09] vivid way I think it's a

[00:27:10] genius sort of thing to use

[00:27:12] right and then it gets us

[00:27:13] sort of Michael Jordan and the

[00:27:14] fat five can you talk a bit

[00:27:15] about the fact ever know who

[00:27:16] the fat five is enough we

[00:27:19] should probably just say yeah

[00:27:21] go home and watch it there

[00:27:22] they were fired from Michigan

[00:27:24] yeah from Michigan and the

[00:27:25] way you use them I think is

[00:27:26] also brilliant can you just

[00:27:27] talk about that because

[00:27:28] Chris Webber played here I

[00:27:29] just want everything to come

[00:27:30] back to Chris Webber played

[00:27:31] two of them play here don't

[00:27:32] want how we're playing here

[00:27:33] for a long time back you

[00:27:35] know I get why the team is

[00:27:36] no longer in the game

[00:27:37] back you know I get why the

[00:27:38] team is no longer called the

[00:27:39] Washington Bullets I fully

[00:27:40] understand but but it's a

[00:27:44] better name though those

[00:27:45] jerseys man those jerseys

[00:27:46] were fucking incredible and I

[00:27:48] also get that the logo was

[00:27:49] problematic for like it was

[00:27:50] like a bullet coming out of

[00:27:52] it I get all I get it all

[00:27:54] the city was going through

[00:27:55] some complicated things at the

[00:27:56] time you know jerseys were

[00:27:58] incredible the jerseys were

[00:27:59] incredible I wish red white

[00:28:00] and blue yeah which made it

[00:28:01] even better America this is

[00:28:03] really about you you know

[00:28:04] I mean the fat five were five

[00:28:07] freshmen who played at

[00:28:08] Michigan and I they were I

[00:28:09] was lucky enough to grow up in

[00:28:10] a neighborhood house so I was

[00:28:11] grew up in a very like very

[00:28:13] black neighborhood I saw

[00:28:15] people show each other I saw

[00:28:16] like men show each other

[00:28:17] affection usually in my house

[00:28:20] into my friend's house like

[00:28:21] my friends dads would show

[00:28:22] them that you know but I

[00:28:23] never seen like five strangers

[00:28:25] show each other love but if

[00:28:26] you like look at the photos

[00:28:27] or videos of that fight they

[00:28:28] just can't keep their hands

[00:28:29] off each other they're always

[00:28:30] hugging each other they're

[00:28:31] always jumping on each

[00:28:32] other and that's so cool

[00:28:33] beautiful to me back then and

[00:28:34] this idea of the enemies

[00:28:35] particular in particular is

[00:28:36] because I remember being

[00:28:37] young and watching the fat

[00:28:39] five and being like these

[00:28:40] dudes love each other and

[00:28:41] they're so overjoyed to be on

[00:28:42] the floor with each other and

[00:28:43] then hearing how like white

[00:28:44] people talk about the fat

[00:28:45] five and be like that's not

[00:28:46] what I'm seeing like I'm

[00:28:47] witnessing a completely

[00:28:48] different phenomenon than you

[00:28:49] you know I mean and I go

[00:28:50] into the thing about gang

[00:28:51] signs in the book too and

[00:28:52] then it handshakes or it's

[00:28:53] like the thing that people

[00:28:54] don't understand and this

[00:28:55] isn't me co-signing the

[00:28:56] broad scope of gang violence

[00:28:57] that's what I'm seeing and

[00:28:58] I'm seeing it in the

[00:28:59] book and I'm seeing it in

[00:29:00] the book and I'm seeing it

[00:29:01] in the book and I'm seeing

[00:29:02] gang violence necessarily but

[00:29:03] like we grew up I mean I'm

[00:29:04] assuming like you grew up in

[00:29:05] neighborhoods of gangs too

[00:29:06] and you know a function of

[00:29:07] gangs is not just about who

[00:29:08] it's like I've written the

[00:29:09] books about who has to stay

[00:29:10] the fuck out it's not just

[00:29:11] about like who is in it's

[00:29:12] like who stays out of this

[00:29:13] neighborhood because we have

[00:29:14] invented a language amongst

[00:29:15] ourselves that is ours and

[00:29:16] that's affection that's

[00:29:17] intimacy and action is

[00:29:18] protection the handshakes

[00:29:19] that you make up with

[00:29:20] differences are intimacy

[00:29:21] moments and the fat five is

[00:29:22] a moment of intimacy and

[00:29:23] to see how particularly white

[00:29:24] sportscasters talked about

[00:29:25] the fat five is that

[00:29:26] there's a lot of

[00:29:27] different ways to talk about

[00:29:28] the fat five and I want to

[00:29:29] talk about that so I'm going

[00:29:30] to talk about that

[00:29:31] I talked about the fat five

[00:29:32] I remember being like this

[00:29:33] is these people must I did

[00:29:35] not as a nine year old I

[00:29:36] didn't think about this but

[00:29:37] now I look back and I think

[00:29:38] these people must have been

[00:29:39] my enemy because they were

[00:29:40] casting doubt upon something

[00:29:41] that to me was just

[00:29:42] vibrant extreme fluorescent

[00:29:45] affection and that is

[00:29:48] that's a real thesis for

[00:29:50] the book too in terms of

[00:29:51] you know that whole first

[00:29:52] line that whole concede about

[00:29:53] anyone who disrupts what we

[00:29:55] understand is love is our

[00:29:56] enemy by default that runs

[00:29:58] throughout the entire book I

[00:29:59] think it's not as not

[00:30:00] explicitly but I think it's

[00:30:01] some small nudges yeah it's

[00:30:03] interesting speaking of

[00:30:04] handshakes up I was recently

[00:30:05] I was reading doing some

[00:30:06] research and read something

[00:30:07] I don't know if this is true

[00:30:08] but I read something about

[00:30:09] how the DAP was invented I'd

[00:30:13] say popularized by black

[00:30:16] soldiers in Vietnam yep I

[00:30:17] heard that you read that

[00:30:18] yeah but black soldiers in

[00:30:20] Vietnam who in the in this

[00:30:22] in the most frightening

[00:30:23] moments of their lives right

[00:30:24] we're talking about all

[00:30:25] these young black men who

[00:30:26] ostensibly have been

[00:30:27] sent off to die or fight and

[00:30:28] win and come back and then

[00:30:30] die at death every day right

[00:30:31] and they have their way of

[00:30:33] sort of camaraderie and of

[00:30:34] sort of and signaling to each

[00:30:36] other that like you and I

[00:30:37] are the same this is their

[00:30:39] namaste basically right is

[00:30:41] this is this DAP right the

[00:30:42] way I think about it now

[00:30:43] when I see the kids do it or

[00:30:44] when I see LeBron do it

[00:30:46] right or all these people is

[00:30:47] that like it also connects

[00:30:49] it feels so connected to jazz

[00:30:50] for me of course and it's

[00:30:52] very musical and it feels so

[00:30:54] musical and it feels the way

[00:30:55] that like we think about we

[00:30:57] think about you know bebop or

[00:30:59] the way that we think about

[00:31:00] sort of like let's

[00:31:01] complicate let's complicate

[00:31:02] the music so it can't be copied

[00:31:04] I mean this is when there's

[00:31:06] a whole history of this when

[00:31:08] Pat Boone stole 2D 3D from

[00:31:10] Little Richard right what did

[00:31:12] Little Richard do Little

[00:31:13] Richard was like I'm gonna

[00:31:14] make Long Tongue Sally

[00:31:15] because you don't have the

[00:31:16] ability like I've I've

[00:31:18] been in the music industry

[00:31:19] for a long time and I've

[00:31:20] been in the music industry

[00:31:21] for a long time and I've

[00:31:22] been in the music industry

[00:31:23] for a long time and I've

[00:31:24] been in the music industry

[00:31:25] for a long time and I've

[00:31:26] been in the music industry

[00:31:27] for a long time now so I

[00:31:28] think it's like I don't

[00:31:29] have the ability like I've

[00:31:30] I've watched you take

[00:31:31] tutti-frutti and I've

[00:31:32] watched what I know the

[00:31:33] limitations of your abilities

[00:31:34] linguistically and so he

[00:31:35] came up with Long Tongue

[00:31:36] Sally where the the it's

[00:31:37] like a run-on sentence at a

[00:31:38] different pace Pat Boone

[00:31:39] can't do that shit he

[00:31:40] tried didn't work so that

[00:31:41] too is acting you adapt to

[00:31:42] your enemies right you adapt

[00:31:43] to in the enemy is

[00:31:44] adaptable I mean a part of

[00:31:45] the argument of the book too

[00:31:46] is that to begin as an enemy

[00:31:47] is not to remain one our

[00:31:48] enemies and our beloveds

[00:31:49] are sometimes that's like

[00:31:50] Our enemies and our beloveds are sometimes,

[00:31:51] that's like a fluid thing.

[00:31:52] The people we love become our enemies at least temporarily.

[00:31:55] I mean some of what I read early on is about this concept

[00:31:58] of creating a villain out of someone you love

[00:32:00] to at least create a distance between your affections

[00:32:04] and the realities of your, the limitations

[00:32:06] of your ability to be close to that person.

[00:32:08] And so I'm fascinated by disrupting the binary

[00:32:13] of what an enemy is or what an enemy can be.

[00:32:17] I wanna take a step back just for a second

[00:32:19] to talk about form and format

[00:32:20] because you're like the best person to talk about form

[00:32:22] and format with.

[00:32:23] To me, and this is just my opinion,

[00:32:26] I think this is you at the height of your powers.

[00:32:29] In this moment, I'm sure you're beyond this now.

[00:32:31] But to me,

[00:32:32] I'm not.

[00:32:33] To me, to me, this feels like,

[00:32:36] I mean it's like everything.

[00:32:39] It's like all of the powers from enjambment

[00:32:43] and the usage of like enjambment and prose, right?

[00:32:47] Punctuation, I got a particular thing

[00:32:49] I wanna ask you about punctuation-wise

[00:32:51] that I'll get to in a little bit.

[00:32:53] We could talk about, I mean, punctuation especially

[00:32:56] because there's a lot of like, you run on.

[00:33:00] All kinds of things are happening in the book

[00:33:01] in terms of devices.

[00:33:03] And then there's like format, right?

[00:33:05] And you mentioned sort of how the book is structured

[00:33:07] with like, it's basically like a basketball game, right?

[00:33:10] There are four quarters.

[00:33:12] There are these brilliant timeouts.

[00:33:13] I do have one, I have a question about this too.

[00:33:16] I'll get to it in a second.

[00:33:16] I can't wait.

[00:33:17] Brilliant timeouts.

[00:33:18] I'm just asking about the timeouts.

[00:33:19] I'm so excited to talk about timeouts.

[00:33:20] I'm ready to talk about timeouts.

[00:33:22] There's brilliant timeouts, there's all this stuff

[00:33:24] and you do get the feeling that like, oh,

[00:33:25] and there's a clock, right?

[00:33:26] There's a clock that's timing out.

[00:33:29] It's going down, right?

[00:33:30] As you're reading through all of his sort of these

[00:33:35] almost like vignettes, right?

[00:33:36] As he's sort of doing the Hanif thing, right?

[00:33:38] It's like you're going through the Hanif thing

[00:33:40] and it's vignette after vignette

[00:33:41] and the time is ticking down

[00:33:43] which is a wild thing to experience

[00:33:44] because you don't know that you are tight.

[00:33:47] Your body has become tight

[00:33:49] as you're sort of exploring all this stuff.

[00:33:50] So I want to ask about the conceit of this,

[00:33:54] about the choices you make here

[00:33:56] and just for you to wax a bit about this,

[00:33:58] you want to experience it when you read the book

[00:34:00] if you haven't read it.

[00:34:01] I'll try not to give it all away but please.

[00:34:03] Well one thing is that I wanted to make a book

[00:34:04] that looked like nothing that existed.

[00:34:06] Like really, I came out of Little Devil America

[00:34:10] feeling like every time I wanted to make a book

[00:34:15] that looked like nothing that existed

[00:34:16] in a book where I couldn't say,

[00:34:17] I think I could do that again.

[00:34:19] I came out of Little Devil America

[00:34:19] I could write if I wanted to,

[00:34:22] I could just write They Can't Kill Us 2, 3, 4, 5

[00:34:25] in Random House and be like fine I'll take it

[00:34:27] and people would be like I'll read this

[00:34:28] and I came out of Little Devil America

[00:34:30] being like I could do that again.

[00:34:32] I looked at what was on the cutting room floor

[00:34:34] after Little Devil especially

[00:34:35] and was like I think I could do that again

[00:34:37] if I wanted to.

[00:34:38] I wanted to write a book

[00:34:39] that one left nothing on the floor,

[00:34:41] that two looked like nothing that existed

[00:34:43] and that three I don't think I could make it again.

[00:34:45] If I tried and that seemed intimidating at first

[00:34:50] until I was like I'm making something

[00:34:52] that doesn't exist so it's impossible for me to fail.

[00:34:55] I'll know when I fail in the material sense

[00:34:56] I'll look at the page and say something's not

[00:34:58] but I also wouldn't have a clear blueprint

[00:35:00] for what failed, there's nothing on books like this.

[00:35:02] And I do wanna say this,

[00:35:04] I wanna say two things.

[00:35:05] One is that I love Greg Tate and I miss him a lot

[00:35:10] and I've been getting very emotional thinking about Tate

[00:35:12] because this book does not exist without Tate

[00:35:14] and insofar as he's someone I looked up to

[00:35:16] who I was mentored by and after we lost him,

[00:35:19] you know what I love about Tate is that he wrote

[00:35:21] everything like it was his last thing.

[00:35:23] Every review, an email,

[00:35:25] he just put everything he had in every word he wrote

[00:35:28] and I think it would be treasonous to him

[00:35:30] if this book that I had in my brain

[00:35:33] for since 2017 or 18 whatever,

[00:35:35] if I said I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait.

[00:35:37] I need to get, you know,

[00:35:38] I had to take the big swing I decided to

[00:35:40] after we lost him too.

[00:35:41] I think this is my most,

[00:35:44] you know, I'm always just reaching for Morrison and failing

[00:35:47] and I think when you reach for Morrison and fail,

[00:35:48] you succeed in many other ways.

[00:35:50] And I feel good saying like this feels like

[00:35:52] my most Morrisonian book in part because

[00:35:54] there's some real material.

[00:35:55] I mean the tour joint where you talking about.

[00:35:58] That's just jazz.

[00:35:59] You know, like that's pretty much.

[00:36:00] I read it and I was like,

[00:36:00] oh look he ripping it off.

[00:36:02] I'm just playing.

[00:36:02] No, I mean seriously, it kinda,

[00:36:03] I'm surprised my editors are like,

[00:36:05] you're kinda just ripping off jazz.

[00:36:07] There's a thing I like walking through downtown Cleveland

[00:36:09] that is essentially the scene in jazz

[00:36:12] where it's like the person standing on the street corner.

[00:36:14] It's like daylight slants through the, you know.

[00:36:16] But also I was reading a lot of Song of Solomon,

[00:36:19] the like flying African shit.

[00:36:20] And so like there's a lot of Morrison in this book

[00:36:22] but I also thought that

[00:36:26] there was an opportunity for me to take a really big swing

[00:36:31] and put everything I had.

[00:36:35] I'm someone who much like,

[00:36:37] I'm of the Johnny Cash school.

[00:36:38] Johnny Cash said I'm gonna write songs about three things.

[00:36:41] Love, God and murder.

[00:36:42] That's his oeuvre or whatever.

[00:36:44] My grief, place and devotion are my three things.

[00:36:49] Oftentimes I get those sometimes all three

[00:36:51] in the same piece.

[00:36:53] Never all throughout the same book.

[00:36:55] And I really wanted to create a continuous book.

[00:36:57] And so I had to make some decisions around

[00:36:59] just on a line level how to get to that place

[00:37:02] and how to lead people to that place

[00:37:04] because the syntax,

[00:37:06] I'm glad you talked about the enjambment thing

[00:37:09] because that was really important to me.

[00:37:10] And the editors, they didn't get it.

[00:37:12] How can I say?

[00:37:13] They didn't get it at all.

[00:37:14] And one, it's not just enjambment.

[00:37:15] It's also doing some things around syntax, et cetera.

[00:37:17] But the thing about edit, like prose editors,

[00:37:19] and I love my editors are great.

[00:37:20] Like the great Maya Millett again,

[00:37:22] I can't, you know,

[00:37:23] Maya Millett and Ben Greenberg are my editors

[00:37:25] but Maya edited Little Devil

[00:37:26] and we just have the same brain now.

[00:37:29] And even Maya was like,

[00:37:30] you know this thing where the sentence kind of stops

[00:37:34] and then starts at a different, I don't,

[00:37:35] and you can just tell that prose editor's like,

[00:37:36] it's a poetry thing.

[00:37:37] Yeah.

[00:37:38] I'm doing like a poetry move

[00:37:40] and Maya's like, all right, you know?

[00:37:42] But I'm trying to get people to slow down

[00:37:45] on a line level because of what happens

[00:37:47] by inserting a clock.

[00:37:48] Inserting a clock causes you to tense up

[00:37:51] your heart rate to raise.

[00:37:52] But if I'm writing on a,

[00:37:54] I think of all the abilities that I have,

[00:37:58] I'm not very certain that I have a ton

[00:38:00] for the one that I know that I have is like

[00:38:02] on a line level, I can really do some things.

[00:38:04] Like I can stretch out a sentence

[00:38:07] for a very long time so that you forget

[00:38:09] that you're reading one sentence.

[00:38:11] And I can, on the other end of that,

[00:38:14] make a staccato thing of a lot of small sentences

[00:38:16] that make you feel like you're reading one long sentence.

[00:38:19] And the part of that that I really utilize

[00:38:20] in this book was I wanna get people

[00:38:21] to slow down as they're reading

[00:38:22] because their bodies are responding to the numbers

[00:38:25] but I want their brains to respond to the language

[00:38:27] and that was the hardest part of making this book.

[00:38:29] Do you think, I'm always interested in,

[00:38:32] so someone like yourself who does this work all the time,

[00:38:36] when you started this book,

[00:38:39] did you have any of the moments where it's like,

[00:38:41] man, I wonder is my ambition greater than my talent?

[00:38:44] Yeah, I mean always.

[00:38:45] My ambition is always greater than my talent

[00:38:46] but the thing about this book is it started backwards.

[00:38:49] It started, it used to be in inverse form

[00:38:51] where it began with me walking through downtown Cleveland,

[00:38:53] it began in 2016 and ended with me in high school

[00:38:56] and that was the hardest, that was hard

[00:38:58] but it didn't work.

[00:38:59] Like even when I turned into my editors,

[00:39:01] I was like, I think this shit ain't working

[00:39:03] in this form.

[00:39:04] And of course they were like, you gotta flip it around

[00:39:06] but it was good to do the hard thing first

[00:39:07] because it forced me to ask the question

[00:39:09] that I think is important.

[00:39:11] Do you wanna show off or do you wanna write a good book?

[00:39:13] Those are two different things.

[00:39:14] You can show off in a good book

[00:39:16] but the primary function of the book

[00:39:18] cannot be your showing off.

[00:39:20] And to have it like that where I was like,

[00:39:21] and you know, I made this countdown clock

[00:39:23] and I did this and I did this

[00:39:24] and to talk about the scent,

[00:39:25] like the whole narrative of backwards.

[00:39:27] My editor's like, well all that other shit's cool

[00:39:29] but the backwards narrative is just kinda like,

[00:39:31] you don't really need that.

[00:39:32] It's masturbatory.

[00:39:33] Yeah, right, right.

[00:39:34] Yeah.

[00:39:34] So I think I was trying to get,

[00:39:36] I found myself being like,

[00:39:38] my ambition is maybe outpacing my ability

[00:39:40] and I'm just gonna do the hardest thing possible.

[00:39:42] Like I'm gonna make the hardest book possible

[00:39:44] to feel better about myself.

[00:39:46] And my editor's was like,

[00:39:47] just do the, you don't have to do that.

[00:39:48] You know what I mean?

[00:39:49] It's kinda like when you're in the gym

[00:39:52] trying to lift a big ass weight

[00:39:53] with no one spotting you.

[00:39:54] You know what I mean?

[00:39:55] It's like, just get there.

[00:39:56] That guy's just watching.

[00:39:56] Just have him come over.

[00:39:57] It's like people who make fancy pizza.

[00:39:59] Yeah.

[00:40:00] It's like pizza actually is good as pizza.

[00:40:02] I'm gonna eat it no matter what.

[00:40:03] Cheese and bread is perfect.

[00:40:04] It's pretty good.

[00:40:05] You know what I mean?

[00:40:06] So yeah, I mean I had that moment

[00:40:07] but I think my ambition is always outpacing my ability

[00:40:11] and I think the miracle of this is

[00:40:13] you get to figure out,

[00:40:14] you get to be the architect of the bridge

[00:40:16] that takes you from ambition to ability

[00:40:17] and sometimes the bridge is shorter than you think.

[00:40:20] And I think I hit a point in this book

[00:40:24] because the book was backwards,

[00:40:26] the thing where I was riffing on your thing,

[00:40:29] the gang everywhere part,

[00:40:30] that used to be in the first quarter

[00:40:33] and I remember,

[00:40:34] it used to be at the end of the first quarter

[00:40:35] and I remember I was really slogging

[00:40:37] and struggling through the first quarter in the beginning

[00:40:39] and then I hit that part

[00:40:41] and it was a very much like,

[00:40:42] I think I got my swagger back.

[00:40:43] Well, that's like, I think I can do this.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:45] You know what I mean?

[00:40:46] Because that was a hard,

[00:40:47] I had envisioned that part of the book

[00:40:48] or that little paragraph

[00:40:50] and to get it to work out on the page

[00:40:52] exactly as I had envisioned it,

[00:40:53] I was like, I think I'm good.

[00:40:56] You know, I had this old adage

[00:40:57] that I'm always reminding myself of

[00:40:58] that says there are great storytellers

[00:41:01] and there are great writers

[00:41:02] and they are rarely the same person.

[00:41:03] Rarely the same, yeah.

[00:41:04] They're rarely the same person.

[00:41:05] So good on you man.

[00:41:06] Shout out to your editors, which is-

[00:41:08] Truly.

[00:41:09] For those of you who don't know,

[00:41:09] the editors really be like

[00:41:10] the other collaborators

[00:41:12] who help us pull all this shit.

[00:41:13] Yeah.

[00:41:14] You know what I mean?

[00:41:15] I wanna ask,

[00:41:16] because I don't wanna run out of time.

[00:41:17] We'll be fine.

[00:41:18] But I do wanna talk a bit about-

[00:41:21] Can I start a really short funny thing,

[00:41:23] a very short funny thing?

[00:41:23] Of course, of course.

[00:41:24] Maya Millet is so wonderful and great

[00:41:26] and on stage,

[00:41:27] I did a thing in New York with Wesley Morris

[00:41:29] and we were talking about,

[00:41:30] I have a large crush on Maya the R&B singer

[00:41:32] who is from this area.

[00:41:34] Yeah, from this area.

[00:41:35] Yay, come on.

[00:41:36] In case she's,

[00:41:37] I don't think she's here tonight but-

[00:41:39] I don't see it.

[00:41:40] But I was like,

[00:41:42] I love Maya and I was on,

[00:41:43] Wesley was like,

[00:41:44] oh Maya, yeah, R&B singer.

[00:41:45] I was like, yeah, yeah,

[00:41:46] Maya's great, you know what I mean?

[00:41:48] I would throw my life away for Maya

[00:41:49] and afterwards in the signing line,

[00:41:51] Maya Millet came up to me

[00:41:52] and was like, I'm so proud of you.

[00:41:54] We did it and I was like,

[00:41:55] oh Maya, thank you so much.

[00:41:56] And these two people in the signing line were,

[00:41:57] oh my God, is that Maya?

[00:42:00] You're like, not exactly.

[00:42:02] I was like, no, I'm not,

[00:42:03] this is not the woman I would throw my life,

[00:42:05] I mean I would actually but for different reasons.

[00:42:08] Sorry, go ahead with your thing.

[00:42:09] Shout out to all the Mayas of the world.

[00:42:11] But especially that one.

[00:42:13] To all the Mayas, particularly that one.

[00:42:15] But especially that one.

[00:42:17] I think she from like Lake Alba

[00:42:18] or something like that up back in 15.

[00:42:20] I would go there.

[00:42:25] Let's talk a little bit about,

[00:42:26] as we continue on with former format,

[00:42:28] let's talk a bit about these timeouts, right?

[00:42:30] This is to me,

[00:42:31] look there's a lot about this book that I love.

[00:42:33] These moments were the moments I was like,

[00:42:34] oh he really in his bag.

[00:42:36] These are the moments,

[00:42:37] one because I know how much you love Ohio.

[00:42:42] Wait a minute, are y'all from?

[00:42:43] Where y'all from?

[00:42:44] All right.

[00:42:48] All right.

[00:42:49] All right.

[00:42:50] Look at his ass.

[00:42:50] Look at his ass.

[00:42:51] All right.

[00:42:52] Oh by the way, Michelle Indegiocello

[00:42:53] is also from Moxing Hill.

[00:42:55] Really?

[00:42:56] Yeah.

[00:42:56] This is a lot of-

[00:42:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:42:59] He has a piece in there where he talks about,

[00:43:01] Michelle Indegiocello is in this book as well.

[00:43:04] And y'all know who she is?

[00:43:06] Surely.

[00:43:07] Also from Moxing Hill.

[00:43:08] Just so y'all know.

[00:43:09] She's Moxing Hill.

[00:43:10] I wish she was here.

[00:43:10] I adore her.

[00:43:11] Yeah, me too.

[00:43:13] But I was gonna ask about these timeouts.

[00:43:15] So there are these moments in the book

[00:43:16] where he has these timeouts

[00:43:17] because this is a basketball game

[00:43:19] as we've already established.

[00:43:20] And so there's these timeouts.

[00:43:21] And in these timeouts,

[00:43:22] he, well I'll let you explain it.

[00:43:24] Please.

[00:43:25] There are timeouts in praise of Ohio Aviators,

[00:43:28] notable Ohio Aviator, right?

[00:43:29] But the idea with the timeouts was

[00:43:31] that they begin in a very literal sense of aviator

[00:43:35] and then move further and further away

[00:43:36] from the literal sense of aviator.

[00:43:37] So they begin with John Glenn and Lonnie Carmen.

[00:43:41] And I love John Glenn.

[00:43:42] And I, gosh there was this massive thing

[00:43:44] about John Glenn in the book that got cut.

[00:43:46] He wanted to die.

[00:43:47] Yeah.

[00:43:48] In space.

[00:43:49] He wanted to die.

[00:43:50] I love John Glenn because he,

[00:43:51] the whole thing,

[00:43:52] there's another part of the book

[00:43:53] that did stay that got pulled.

[00:43:54] You have to at some point

[00:43:56] decide what you are going to die for.

[00:43:58] If you are aware of the fact that you are going to die.

[00:44:01] And I love that John Glenn very firmly was like,

[00:44:04] I am willing to die to see outer space again.

[00:44:08] Like not at all concerned with my life

[00:44:10] if I get to see outer space one more time.

[00:44:12] And I just,

[00:44:14] that kind of devotion,

[00:44:16] I adore John Glenn.

[00:44:17] I really do.

[00:44:18] Like I don't have,

[00:44:20] I don't have a lot of heroes in the sense

[00:44:22] and I don't have a lot like Ohio heroes

[00:44:23] other than Morrison.

[00:44:24] But yeah.

[00:44:25] So I wanted to get away from,

[00:44:27] I wanted to do these little poems

[00:44:28] that move further and further away

[00:44:29] from strict definitions of aviation.

[00:44:31] So we do first quarters like Glenn and Carmen

[00:44:33] and then by the end it's like Kid Cudi, right?

[00:44:36] Man on the Moon, right?

[00:44:37] Or it's of course Morrison.

[00:44:39] Or a better example is Virginia Hamilton

[00:44:40] who has a book that people could fly.

[00:44:42] Shout out to the flying Africans.

[00:44:44] Right, flying Africans.

[00:44:45] Right.

[00:44:45] So it was kind of making the idea of aviation abstract.

[00:44:50] And of course the last two in the book

[00:44:51] are LeBron James and myself.

[00:44:52] Which those were,

[00:44:53] that was the hardest to write obviously.

[00:44:55] Because-

[00:44:56] The one that's me?

[00:44:57] Both of those together.

[00:44:58] As a pair.

[00:44:59] Yeah.

[00:45:00] And it was initially just LeBron James

[00:45:03] and then I had a friend read through

[00:45:04] and they were like,

[00:45:05] why don't you write one for yourself?

[00:45:06] And I thought, no, that's really,

[00:45:08] that would be really hard.

[00:45:09] Even though it's only like five lines, you know?

[00:45:11] It's great.

[00:45:13] But this idea, the idea is

[00:45:15] we're transforming the idea of what aviation is

[00:45:17] and who gets to be in charge of it.

[00:45:18] Like you cannot tell me that Virginia Hamilton

[00:45:21] is not an architect of flight.

[00:45:24] You cannot tell me that Toni Morrison

[00:45:25] is not an architect of flight.

[00:45:27] These kind of folks who, you know,

[00:45:30] and I wrote like 40 of those.

[00:45:32] The ones that are in the book,

[00:45:32] I think there's what, 10 in the book?

[00:45:33] Where's Tracy Chapman?

[00:45:35] She was one of the ones I wrote.

[00:45:36] I was gonna write-

[00:45:37] She just didn't fit.

[00:45:38] There was no,

[00:45:39] because I tried to also make them somewhat related

[00:45:41] to the central theme of the quarter they're in.

[00:45:43] Chapman didn't fit, but I mean,

[00:45:45] I wrote like three for her.

[00:45:46] I adore it.

[00:45:46] I mean, Tracy Chapman is my second favorite

[00:45:48] Ohio writer.

[00:45:49] It's like Morrison, Chapman, and then all the rest.

[00:45:51] I hate links to you so much.

[00:45:53] I don't hate links.

[00:45:55] You never talk about him.

[00:45:56] He's an Ohioan.

[00:45:57] He's a Cleveland guy, yeah.

[00:45:59] We won't have to talk about it now,

[00:46:00] but I am curious about this.

[00:46:01] Yeah.

[00:46:04] I just noticed over the years,

[00:46:05] I've been, over the years,

[00:46:06] I'm like why doesn't he ever talk about this?

[00:46:08] You know how sometimes somebody's like a legend,

[00:46:10] but you maybe just don't love the,

[00:46:11] you respect the legend,

[00:46:12] but you don't love the, you know,

[00:46:14] like in music this is a lot easier

[00:46:16] where it's like, you know, fucking,

[00:46:20] now I'm afraid to say anyone.

[00:46:23] But you know,

[00:46:26] I, this is probably gonna get me into trouble.

[00:46:29] Like I adore what Diana Ross has done

[00:46:31] for the broader world of black music specifically.

[00:46:34] A lot of those albums aren't for me.

[00:46:36] I would say all of those albums aren't for me.

[00:46:38] Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[00:46:39] So you know, I think Hughes is maybe

[00:46:41] the Diana Ross of for me,

[00:46:42] of Ohio writers.

[00:46:43] I'll take it.

[00:46:44] We can move on.

[00:46:45] Yeah, but yeah, I mean like,

[00:46:46] he's still Diana Ross.

[00:46:47] Yeah, we can move on.

[00:46:49] I wanna ask two quick questions

[00:46:53] and then we'll take it to the audience.

[00:46:54] Number one is, why you don't have no half time?

[00:46:59] So I had to sacrifice half time for the intermissions

[00:47:04] because it was one or the other.

[00:47:06] It was like, I can't,

[00:47:07] everything with this book had to be on a,

[00:47:09] on a like how much am I trying to fit between the pages?

[00:47:11] Half time would have been overkill.

[00:47:13] The intermissions with half time would have been overkill.

[00:47:16] Just the intermissions make it flow a bit better.

[00:47:17] And I had more to say in the intermission essays

[00:47:21] than I would have been one half time.

[00:47:22] Like I wanted to work in the he got game thing

[00:47:24] because it brings back my father.

[00:47:25] I wanted to work in the hustle thing

[00:47:27] because that chat, that like quarters about hustles,

[00:47:31] I desperately wanted to work in the above the rim shit

[00:47:33] because I got to do that cool backwards erasure thing.

[00:47:36] That I will say, I know I just said like,

[00:47:38] you can't show up.

[00:47:39] The above the rim thing was just showing off.

[00:47:41] I was like, I figured out how to do

[00:47:42] like a backwards erasure.

[00:47:44] And my editors are like,

[00:47:45] I don't think this makes sense.

[00:47:46] I was like, it's going in.

[00:47:47] It's cool.

[00:47:48] It's cool.

[00:47:49] You know, in my mind, I was hoping there was a half time.

[00:47:51] I was literally, I'm like reading him like,

[00:47:52] oh maybe we're gonna get to the half time.

[00:47:54] And in my mind it's gonna be like some oleo.

[00:47:55] Like you were gonna do like an oleo.

[00:47:57] Where it was gonna be like a real basketball half time,

[00:48:00] which by the way is a circus.

[00:48:01] Real circus.

[00:48:02] Right?

[00:48:03] And so I was like, oh we can have t-shirt toss.

[00:48:04] We can write, this is about to be like,

[00:48:06] this is about to be nonsense mascots.

[00:48:08] And like, how's he gonna pull this off?

[00:48:10] Right?

[00:48:11] And so I was like, ah, and then it didn't happen.

[00:48:12] And I was like, I gotta ask him about this.

[00:48:15] My last question.

[00:48:16] My last question is,

[00:48:17] it's a question I've asked you before,

[00:48:18] but it's a question I ask you every time we do this.

[00:48:20] Cause I think the answer changes with everybody.

[00:48:24] And this is a book about a lot of things.

[00:48:25] I mean, I didn't even get to when you got locked up

[00:48:29] and all that stuff.

[00:48:30] The ideas around heartbreak and loss.

[00:48:31] All the things that you sort of weave in.

[00:48:33] I have lots of questions about how you excavate

[00:48:35] this much of your life.

[00:48:36] Constantly digging through, mining your own life.

[00:48:39] But like what would you, if you could look back,

[00:48:43] remember I asked you this?

[00:48:44] If you could look back to your 10 year old self,

[00:48:47] maybe we bump it up a little bit this time.

[00:48:49] Let's look at like Hanifat 16.

[00:48:52] Yeah.

[00:48:53] What would you thank 16 year old Hanif for?

[00:48:58] Well, I think maturing past the point

[00:49:03] where he thought grief was something

[00:49:05] that you got to be done with.

[00:49:07] I think it took me three years after my mom died

[00:49:09] to learn that grief isn't something that you get to be.

[00:49:15] You don't, there's no achievement you can unlock

[00:49:18] that stops grief from living within you

[00:49:20] for the rest of your life and transforming

[00:49:23] within you the rest of your life.

[00:49:24] And I didn't learn that until I was 16

[00:49:26] until I maybe lost more people.

[00:49:30] Because I think that was a point where I decided

[00:49:35] to want to even have the desire to move beyond grief

[00:49:39] is treasonous to the life that you are grieving,

[00:49:42] I think, and the life that you get to live

[00:49:44] alongside that person for years and years

[00:49:46] and years and years.

[00:49:48] If I were to surrender myself to those impulses

[00:49:52] I felt after my mother died,

[00:49:53] then I would lose parts of my mother

[00:49:55] that I would not be able to get back

[00:49:57] at an accelerated rate.

[00:49:59] And yeah, I think my teenage self

[00:50:04] asked me to hold firm to the realities

[00:50:05] that the people I love are only lost

[00:50:08] in this material world

[00:50:09] and there's another world where they exist very robustly.

[00:50:13] Ladies and gentlemen, the great Hanif Abdul-Rukhimi.

[00:50:16] Thanks.

[00:50:17] All right.

[00:50:22] So we're gonna do Q&A now.

[00:50:24] I'm gonna ask everyone who has a question

[00:50:26] to line up on this wall here.

[00:50:28] I will hold the mic while you ask your question

[00:50:31] and then we're going to let Hanif and Jason answer.

[00:50:34] So if you have questions please line up

[00:50:36] over here on my left please.

[00:50:39] Yeah.

[00:50:47] Sorry.

[00:50:48] Oh, well hi Juan.

[00:50:49] Hey.

[00:50:51] This question might be really boring

[00:50:53] but Jason already talked about

[00:50:55] how you do the Hanif thing with the complexity

[00:50:57] and you jump in and out of stuff and ideas.

[00:51:00] My question is what does pre-writing look like for you

[00:51:04] and how do you track that

[00:51:06] and with all those ideas are there any tools

[00:51:09] or methods you use or whatever you use

[00:51:11] to build that clarity and find clarity

[00:51:13] in the end with all of that?

[00:51:14] That's a great, that's not a boring question.

[00:51:16] That's a great question.

[00:51:17] Research is clarifying.

[00:51:18] My pre-writing happens so much in my head

[00:51:21] that it can begin to feel not grounded in anything.

[00:51:24] I do so much of my writing in my head

[00:51:26] before I sit down to put words on the page

[00:51:27] because it's a lack of trust thing.

[00:51:30] Like I don't trust my,

[00:51:32] I think as someone who's really committed

[00:51:33] to my obsessions and has a lot of obsessions

[00:51:35] it's easy to talk yourself into

[00:51:37] the things I love are foolish

[00:51:39] because I think there's so many things in the world

[00:51:41] that tells us that what we love is foolish

[00:51:44] or that tells us that we love is foolish.

[00:51:46] So I do so much pre-writing in my head

[00:51:48] which means that I do a lot of research

[00:51:49] to ground myself in my obsessions.

[00:51:52] In that act of research,

[00:51:55] a perfect example of this is that like I watched,

[00:52:00] there's a thing in the book with a shot from 1976,

[00:52:03] a Dick Snyder shot in the playoffs

[00:52:04] where I kind of run it back a bunch of times

[00:52:06] to try to get people to envision a basketball

[00:52:08] against a blue sideline looking like a sunset.

[00:52:11] I watched that shot 75 times, right?

[00:52:15] Because it made the,

[00:52:17] you become then evangelical in nature.

[00:52:19] I said this with a little devil with a soul train shit.

[00:52:22] I've watched it so many times

[00:52:23] that I'm just delivering the good news

[00:52:24] of what I've witnessed.

[00:52:25] That is what clarifies the writing, right?

[00:52:27] You don't have to,

[00:52:31] my friend Sarah Kay has this poem about starlings,

[00:52:34] the birds that take the shape of a bird when they,

[00:52:36] and it comes from this idea of her saying

[00:52:38] the poem was already written itself.

[00:52:41] That's the clarifying point.

[00:52:42] If you bear witness to something you love enough,

[00:52:44] then your job is not to try to reformat that

[00:52:47] or articulate it in a way that is better than what exists.

[00:52:50] Your job, I think, or my job

[00:52:51] is to become evangelical in the spirit

[00:52:53] of what I have witnessed with gratitude

[00:52:54] and that is what research is for me effectively

[00:52:56] and that is what clarifies my writing.

[00:53:00] Hey.

[00:53:01] Hey, thanks for coming out tonight.

[00:53:03] This is such an incredible endeavor.

[00:53:06] In all of these meditations,

[00:53:08] I find your voice is always so hopeful and joyful

[00:53:11] which shows such an act of care and self-preservation.

[00:53:15] I think that in meditating about grief and loss

[00:53:17] and the lot of time that you have to

[00:53:19] to write so much on these topics,

[00:53:22] what does your self-care look like

[00:53:24] when you're constantly thinking about, obviously,

[00:53:27] and witnessing black death and other types of oppression?

[00:53:30] Yeah, I mean, I sometimes am not that invested,

[00:53:36] I mean, I guess I'm invested in self-care

[00:53:38] as a survival tactic, but not in a way that frees me from...

[00:53:44] My reality feels harsh regardless of what I do.

[00:53:48] I think the way that I am wired

[00:53:51] is to not turn away from the world

[00:53:53] and I think the way the world is wired

[00:53:54] is to not allow me to turn away from it

[00:53:56] and so I'm not really committed to,

[00:53:58] and I know that this is not what you're asking

[00:54:00] but I'm saying I'm not actually committed to self-care

[00:54:02] as something that even puts a soft film

[00:54:05] or a filter over the realities of the world.

[00:54:07] I am committed to self-care in terms of

[00:54:09] how can I, as someone who believes

[00:54:12] the world that we have is untenable

[00:54:14] and would like to build something

[00:54:15] that is better than this world,

[00:54:16] how can I survive to get from devastation

[00:54:20] and grief to the next movement?

[00:54:21] And so yeah, I go on my little runs.

[00:54:23] I'm a runner.

[00:54:24] Go on my silly little runs.

[00:54:25] I go on my silly little runs.

[00:54:27] Too many miles, many short, certainly.

[00:54:32] You know what has grounded me on tour so far,

[00:54:35] and this is a ritual that I have is

[00:54:38] after this it will be like a lonely stretch

[00:54:40] where I go back to the hotel alone

[00:54:42] and I sit in bed with M&Ms

[00:54:44] and I call some of my West Coast friends

[00:54:46] and ask them to tell me about their days.

[00:54:48] Or I ask them to put their kids on the phone

[00:54:50] so I can hear from the kids I love

[00:54:53] who are just by virtue of loving them,

[00:54:55] I love their children.

[00:54:56] And these are things that just,

[00:54:58] whatever just gets me to the next fight, I think.

[00:55:01] If the next fight is me having to read

[00:55:03] and to tackle whatever anxiety,

[00:55:06] disorders are doing that day and read in Miami tomorrow,

[00:55:08] that's the next fight.

[00:55:09] If the next fight is me having to have a brutal,

[00:55:12] brutal but lovingly brutal organizing meeting

[00:55:14] to figure out how the group I organize with

[00:55:16] is gonna get E-letters into prisons enough time,

[00:55:19] that's the next fight.

[00:55:20] So self care to me is a ritual of propulsion

[00:55:24] in whatever it takes because

[00:55:27] the world demands more of me,

[00:55:29] of all of us, I believe.

[00:55:30] I'm not special.

[00:55:31] I'm saying the world demands more of all of us,

[00:55:32] but left to my own devices,

[00:55:35] I wouldn't be up to the fight.

[00:55:37] Yeah?

[00:55:40] Hi. Hi.

[00:55:41] I'm such a big fan.

[00:55:42] You've made me cry on so many occasions.

[00:55:44] But you've talked a lot about how this book

[00:55:47] is the book that you think you can never write again.

[00:55:50] And so I'm curious out of all of your work,

[00:55:53] your current body of work,

[00:55:53] do you have a specific piece

[00:55:55] that you wanna be remembered by?

[00:55:57] No.

[00:55:58] Well, not to mean dismissive.

[00:56:00] I just think that's not my...

[00:56:04] I'm not too concerned with legacy or anything.

[00:56:07] Legacy should not be the concern of a living, I think.

[00:56:10] And the way I think about life,

[00:56:12] I mean, I'll be dead so it won't be any of my business.

[00:56:15] But I will say this.

[00:56:17] I mean, I do hope that what I have put into each project,

[00:56:22] I hope there's an arc of growth.

[00:56:24] I really do.

[00:56:25] I feel like I took a leap from, say,

[00:56:28] chronic worth much of a fortune for your disaster

[00:56:30] and that leap existed because of the amount of labor

[00:56:32] it took to make fortune for your disaster,

[00:56:34] emotionally and just materially.

[00:56:36] And I think if you look at my arc of non-fiction work,

[00:56:38] I know I understand the legacy

[00:56:41] of they can't kill us till they kill us.

[00:56:42] I really do.

[00:56:43] And I'm glad that it has had that.

[00:56:46] But I also think that that...

[00:56:49] If I look at they can't kill us until they kill us

[00:56:51] and look at there's always this year,

[00:56:52] for me as the person who made them,

[00:56:54] it feels like I was like...

[00:56:57] It feels like paint by numbers to Picasso type shit.

[00:57:00] And it should feel that way.

[00:57:02] It should feel that way.

[00:57:03] And so I don't know if I have an answer

[00:57:05] to what work of mine I wanna be remembered most for.

[00:57:07] I hope that people find what they need in all of them.

[00:57:10] Or some of them.

[00:57:11] I hope that people can find something

[00:57:13] that answers some questions for them.

[00:57:15] But for me, I just wanna be remembered as,

[00:57:18] as I guess, if I think about it at all,

[00:57:20] I wanna be remembered as someone who just tried,

[00:57:23] who continually...

[00:57:25] I wanna be remembered as someone who's dissatisfied

[00:57:28] with what I knew I could do

[00:57:30] and tried to reach for something that felt impossible

[00:57:32] until I found it.

[00:57:38] So the first time I was ever in a room with you

[00:57:40] was in Phoenix, Arizona

[00:57:42] at like a 2015 International World Poetry Slum.

[00:57:45] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:57:46] Every time I've ever heard you speak,

[00:57:48] you've spoken to a story that is so specific

[00:57:51] yet so relatable.

[00:57:52] And I'm wondering,

[00:57:53] do you think that there's a limit

[00:57:54] to how specific you can be as a writer in your own life

[00:57:57] yet still speak to so many people so intimately?

[00:58:01] Thank you for that question.

[00:58:02] No, I don't...

[00:58:04] I believe there are no limitations to specificity.

[00:58:06] And I think actually the deeper we go into specificity,

[00:58:11] I love Mary Oliver.

[00:58:12] I love Mary Oliver so much.

[00:58:13] That's speaking of Ohio writers.

[00:58:14] I mean, I adore Mary Oliver.

[00:58:16] And...

[00:58:18] Yeah, she's one of ours.

[00:58:20] Yeah.

[00:58:21] Well, you know what I love about Mary Oliver?

[00:58:25] I think Mary Oliver is deeply misread, right?

[00:58:27] I think there's the etsification of wild geese

[00:58:30] and all that type shit.

[00:58:31] But what people seem to miss,

[00:58:33] and I think people actually,

[00:58:34] speaking of Ohio writers,

[00:58:35] people miss this about Ross too.

[00:58:37] People miss this about Ross Gay.

[00:58:38] They're not just...

[00:58:39] This isn't waxing poetic

[00:58:41] on the high specifics of nature for the sake of it.

[00:58:44] They are saying you are going to die.

[00:58:46] Actually going to die for sure.

[00:58:48] Mary Oliver's entire arc of work.

[00:58:50] I sometimes read Mary Oliver's work

[00:58:52] and I'm like, how did what happened to her legacy?

[00:58:55] This is why I don't think about legacy.

[00:58:57] How did what happened to her legacy happen to it

[00:58:58] when this is what the work is saying?

[00:58:59] I can see it.

[00:59:00] She is saying you are for sure,

[00:59:02] you are required to die,

[00:59:03] but you are not dead yet.

[00:59:04] Therefore, have you considered this duck?

[00:59:07] You know what I mean?

[00:59:08] And you will realize that you actually have not.

[00:59:11] The thing with Mary Oliver is like,

[00:59:13] look at that stream.

[00:59:15] And you are looking at the stream

[00:59:17] and you're realizing you've never seen a stream before.

[00:59:19] Or you've seen water but not like this.

[00:59:22] There's no...

[00:59:24] There is no limit to what we can do as writers

[00:59:26] when it comes to specificity

[00:59:28] because you can make people see anything they want to see.

[00:59:30] Speaking of, I know I keep talking about

[00:59:32] how everyone else is in this book but me.

[00:59:34] That Dick Snyder shit in that book

[00:59:35] where I'm kind of...

[00:59:36] There's a part in the book,

[00:59:37] I know a few of you have read it,

[00:59:39] where I'm just trying to literally make people see

[00:59:42] a basketball against a blue background

[00:59:43] look like a sunset.

[00:59:45] And it requires me repeating the scene

[00:59:46] over and over again saying,

[00:59:47] I'm gonna start again, it looks like this.

[00:59:48] No, no, no, we're gonna start again,

[00:59:49] it looks like this.

[00:59:50] That's a Mary Oliver trick.

[00:59:52] It's Mary Oliver turning her head slightly

[00:59:54] and saying, you're looking here,

[00:59:55] and she was always saying, no, no, no, it's there.

[00:59:58] That requires a level of trust

[00:59:59] that is only built through saying,

[01:00:01] I can be highly specific

[01:00:04] because I know something about the world

[01:00:06] that not only you don't know yet

[01:00:08] but that you desperately want to know

[01:00:09] even if you don't know you wanna know it.

[01:00:14] Appreciate you both for being here so much.

[01:00:17] My question kind of more revolves around me

[01:00:20] a little bit lighter but also in the sense that

[01:00:22] and if you have such like a prolific Instagram presence

[01:00:25] for the culture in many various avenues,

[01:00:27] I mean your protest policies in helping Columbus,

[01:00:30] your staunch and heavy and deep sentiment

[01:00:34] with Palestine and being pro-Palestinian

[01:00:36] and all these different things,

[01:00:37] your consistent Spotify playlist.

[01:00:39] Like you're really intertwined into like tapped in

[01:00:43] and it's, I mean for me it's great.

[01:00:44] I get hella music from that.

[01:00:45] Thank you for that.

[01:00:46] But my question is a little bit lighter

[01:00:48] in the sense that was there musically speaking

[01:00:50] anything sonically that was driving you

[01:00:52] while you were writing this?

[01:00:54] Oh yeah, there's a whole thing on begging songs in there

[01:00:58] I made these two twin playlists when I was making this

[01:01:01] that are still, they're not public

[01:01:02] because I'm still adding to them

[01:01:03] and I don't believe in, I'm a purist.

[01:01:04] I don't believe in altering playlists

[01:01:06] once they get made public because to make a playlist

[01:01:08] if we are to believe the playlist making

[01:01:09] is in the lineage of mixed tape and CD, mixed CD making

[01:01:12] you can't alter a mixed tape when it's,

[01:01:14] when you give it to someone it is theirs

[01:01:15] and they can alter it maybe but you cannot.

[01:01:18] So I believe in that with play.

[01:01:19] So I have many in public but one is

[01:01:20] called The Fellows Are Pleading

[01:01:22] and the other was all like men doing the like

[01:01:24] baby please come back songs

[01:01:25] and the other one is called The Fellows Are Cheating

[01:01:27] which is like, you know, like Deborah Cox is over now

[01:01:30] and like, you know, like women being like

[01:01:32] please do not come, actually do not come back.

[01:01:35] Those were kind of two really heavy things for me

[01:01:37] in largely because so much of it,

[01:01:41] I think this is my most romantic book

[01:01:42] and I think it is romantic because so much of it

[01:01:45] is revolving around devotion and desire

[01:01:47] and I think that comes to the forefront of these

[01:01:49] like often comically bad thematically

[01:01:52] but also sonically very good begging songs

[01:01:56] where it's like, you know, men are hyper theatrical,

[01:01:57] you know, oh baby please, please, please

[01:01:59] and women are like oftentimes,

[01:02:01] I know that these kind of binaries fail us

[01:02:03] outside of the confines of this particular thing

[01:02:05] but it is very often heteronormative,

[01:02:09] very gendered like men please, please, please

[01:02:11] come back and women being like,

[01:02:13] you know, I can take a leave.

[01:02:14] There's not a lot of begging songs by women.

[01:02:18] There's just not in the history of music

[01:02:20] and I find that fascinating and very funny.

[01:02:22] And so those were things that were driving me.

[01:02:26] I loved, I was listening to a lot of Bone Thugs in harmony

[01:02:29] like a lot of North Eastern Ohio rap chip

[01:02:31] and Cuddy, old Cuddy

[01:02:35] because there's a cadence to that kind of corridor

[01:02:37] of rap up in the, you know, Bone,

[01:02:39] I know that they're known for the melodic rapping fast

[01:02:41] but like how do you think Cuddy got his ear from Melod?

[01:02:44] Like, you know what I mean?

[01:02:45] Like I'm so amazed when people are like,

[01:02:47] cute Cuddy rap and I love Cuddy deeply.

[01:02:50] I've written on him multiple times

[01:02:51] and you know, all this type shit

[01:02:53] but it's so odd to me when people are like,

[01:02:55] kid Cuddy revolutionized like melody

[01:02:57] and it's like, no, no, no.

[01:02:58] He was a kid listening to Bone Thugs in harmony.

[01:03:01] That is why he sounds like that

[01:03:02] and it bothers me honestly

[01:03:04] that there's this massive erasure of,

[01:03:08] I mean broadly of Ohio music.

[01:03:09] You know what I mean?

[01:03:11] And I love a lot of Ohio bands that are not,

[01:03:13] you know, someone recently was like,

[01:03:15] I forgot who they were talking about

[01:03:16] the National or the Breeders

[01:03:17] and I love both those bands where they were like,

[01:03:19] that's just like one of the greatest Ohio,

[01:03:20] they're the greatest Ohio bands.

[01:03:21] And I was like, well, you know, I mean,

[01:03:24] this is Ohio players and also here's a scroll

[01:03:26] of funk bands from, you know what I mean?

[01:03:27] Like, and I love the Breeders

[01:03:28] but also like, you know, slave,

[01:03:30] Ohio players, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:03:31] So yeah, I was listening to a lot of Ohio shit

[01:03:33] and trying to get ground myself

[01:03:34] in the kind of sounds like treated as a sonic palette

[01:03:38] and not just a one-off thing

[01:03:39] like this band sounded like that

[01:03:41] but they sound like that for a reason, yeah.

[01:03:44] Hey.

[01:03:46] Thank you behind me for not making me the last question.

[01:03:49] I really appreciate that.

[01:03:50] I was gonna ask you, cause I write myself.

[01:03:53] I'm a bit, oh, sorry.

[01:03:55] I feel like I struggle with like one line.

[01:03:58] So what do you do when you have a really good line

[01:03:59] but you can't like form anything around it

[01:04:02] or like struggle to?

[01:04:03] Yeah, I'm a big line saver.

[01:04:05] And by that, I mean, like I just don't throw anything

[01:04:07] away, I put everything in a folder

[01:04:08] because sometimes the line, like I said early,

[01:04:13] like the first line of this book was,

[01:04:15] that was, I dreamed that up in 2018.

[01:04:17] You know what I mean?

[01:04:19] And I didn't have anything to build around it in 2018 at all.

[01:04:25] But I could wait, you know?

[01:04:26] And then something would emerge.

[01:04:27] So I'm a big line saver.

[01:04:28] I'm a big like put the line in a folder

[01:04:32] and then the more you write,

[01:04:33] the more you learn how to write around the things

[01:04:35] that exist in your head already.

[01:04:37] I think, I really believe that.

[01:04:39] There were parts of this book

[01:04:40] that I couldn't have written without writing

[01:04:41] some of the sentences of Little Devil in America.

[01:04:43] There were, there's, and I have folders

[01:04:45] of like discarded lines or unused lines

[01:04:47] that I go through every time I sit down to write

[01:04:48] and say, okay, am I ready to build a world around this yet?

[01:04:52] Am I ready to build a world around this yet?

[01:04:53] So I'm a big line saver and I think about

[01:04:58] the slow process of learning how to write my way around

[01:05:00] the things I'm committed to

[01:05:01] because I'm committed to beautiful language

[01:05:03] and I don't want to discard it ever.

[01:05:05] Yeah.

[01:05:07] Thank you guys so much.

[01:05:08] That was the last question.

[01:05:09] We definitely appreciate you guys so much.

[01:05:12] I feel that.

[01:05:13] So thank y'all for coming out on opening day two.

[01:05:15] How are we feeling about our nationals and our O's?

[01:05:18] Nats.

[01:05:19] Let's go Nats.

[01:05:20] Let's go Nats.

[01:05:21] Yo, man.

[01:05:22] I was in Philly last night

[01:05:23] and I was like how do you feel about our Phillies?

[01:05:25] Everyone was like, excited, over it.

[01:05:27] Everyone here was like, oh.

[01:05:28] You know what it is?

[01:05:29] We're just fatigued with losing.

[01:05:31] And so if you ask about the caps,

[01:05:33] we get a little more excited.

[01:05:35] Yeah.

[01:05:36] But like, we're just tired of losing.

[01:05:38] That's all.

[01:05:39] Well, tell it to Cleveland fans.

[01:05:42] But we still have one of the greatest,

[01:05:45] we still have one of the biggest attendances to every sport.

[01:05:49] So like nobody's going to cheer.

[01:05:50] People still going to Wizards games?

[01:05:52] People are still going to Wizards games?

[01:05:53] Yes.

[01:05:54] Yes.

[01:05:54] Bro, I be in the games.

[01:05:56] Yes.

[01:05:57] I mean, I know you go.

[01:05:57] We all go.

[01:05:59] We in it.

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