The Making of Swift River: Crafting Fiction with Heart and History

[00:00:00] Welcome to the MahoganyBooks Podcast Network, your gateway to the world of African American literature. We're proud to present a collection of podcasts dedicated to exploring the depth and richness of African American literature.

[00:00:13] I'm also sure South and Podcasts like BlackBooks Matter of the Podcasts, where we learn about the books and major life moments that influence today's top writers,

[00:00:21] or tune in to Real Ball and Three, where brothers, Jan and Miles, invite amazing people to talk about the meaningful books in their lives. So, whether you're a literature enthusiast and advocate for social justice, or simply curious about the untold stories of shape our world,

[00:00:37] subscribe to the MahoganyBooks Podcast Network on your favorite platform and let African American literature ignite your passion. Hello, hello, how are you all doing? Welcome, okay, so my I said, woo, okay, party vibes. I like that party vibes.

[00:00:55] Well, my name is Ramunda Young and I am one half of the owners of MahoganyBooks. I've tried to think who's the other, my husband's the other half of Mahogany Books. And by the show, hey, tell me if you all are familiar with Mahogany Books, anybody familiar?

[00:01:09] Okay, okay, awesome, a few, a amount of hands. So, Mahogany Books, we've been in business now for 17 years. Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, the first, thank, I love the snaps, thank you.

[00:01:22] The first 10 years we were actually online and we were selling books from our one-bedroom apartment in Alexandria, Virginia. And for us, we really wanted black books to be accessible no matter where you lived.

[00:01:33] I'm a Tulsa, Oklahoma, and my family actually grew up probably about a mile or so from black Wall Street and we never knew it was there. It was never taught in my schools. It was never something that was part of the agenda.

[00:01:45] And for me, if I had only known about those innovators, those thought leaders, those entrepreneurs that were just literally about a mile from my home, how much taller, how much more courageous. I could be just from knowing their story.

[00:01:57] And so when my husband and I thought about what business we wanted to start, a bookstore was that thing. Because now we can make books accessible no matter where you live, whether it's New York or Ohio or

[00:02:08] Oklahoma, everyone deserves access to those stories. And so here we are, 17 years later with two stores or I say 2.15 because in national airport there is in term of in concourse E the American Airlines section.

[00:02:24] We're inside of another structure. There's little section of Mahagini books there. So we're excited that people now can grab books that they would not find at a lot of the other stores. They can now fly and take those books with them.

[00:02:34] So it's always humbling to see people come out and support and buy a book and share with other people about Mahagini books. So thank you. Give yourselves a big round of applause for being here. Yeah, we're grateful.

[00:02:48] I do not take that lightly but I have my notes because when people have a lot of great accolades, I want to make sure I read those accolades. And so let me just add two. So we've been a business

[00:02:58] 17 years but we've on Sunday this coming Sunday, my husband and I will be married 22 years. So that's a whole lot of the thing on our books and then married but we're just excited to have

[00:03:11] Mahagini books be part of the DC area. So let's get into it right? So our moderator tonight is someone who's very dear to me. Very dear. She's been a huge supporter of Mahagini books and books. There's so many great

[00:03:24] independent bookstores around the DC area. But she's been someone dear to me and her name is Jamies Harper. She is an avid reader, a wine enthusiast, influencer and a champion for amplifying marginalized voices. A passion for reading diverse books led her to create the hashtag diverse spies.

[00:03:43] Divers in the diverse Spines book community on social media which highlights literature by black women and women of color. She's also an author herself. She is a co-author of the book, Biblical File, diverse Spines along with author and illustrator Jane Mount. She's also a social media platform that's

[00:04:01] called Spines in Vines which enhances reading experiences with curated book and wine paries. How many of you want to ask how many drink wine? That's your business. Please put your hands together and help me welcome Jamies Harper. And so now to introduce our featured author, come on in.

[00:04:30] Miss Essie Chambers. She is an award-winning writer and producer. She has an MFA and creative writing from Columbia University and has received fellowships from the McDowell Vermont Studio Center in Baldwin for the Arts. She previously had senior creative executive

[00:04:46] positions at BioCom CBS. She was a producer on the documentary Descendant which was released by President Barack Obama and Michelle Obama's Higher Ground and Netflix team in 2022. And it's the critically acclaimed PBS documentary. But let me share about how Essie is showing out now.

[00:05:06] This book is showing out now. Currently Swift River is now named A Read with Jenna today show book club pick. Y'all need to give it up for that first of all. That's huge.

[00:05:21] Also named an indie next and indie's introduced pick, a library pick Apple Books Best of June. Right? A summer must read from today the magazine real simple, the time, loss, angeless times, L magazine and book page. And right now real simple magazine listed it in the

[00:05:43] number one spot for Best Books of 2024. Y'all please help me welcome Essie Chambers! Fine! Hello. It's so awesome to be here with you tonight. Simply because this book's incredible but also I had the pleasure of releasing the cover, the cover reveal, back in February.

[00:06:23] And this is like a full circle moment that I'm actually in conversation with you so thank you for the privilege and honor. Thank you so much for me. How exciting! Well week tomorrow, week tomorrow that it's been

[00:06:36] out. Yeah can you guys hear us okay with this? Yes. And so you're going to do open up with the reading for us? Yeah, start with the reading. But also I just I have to thank you again. I didn't

[00:06:47] completely hear all the introduction but like one of the perks of this gig is that you get to ask people that you admire. Oh thank you, a re-trip book and come talk to you. And this woman has created

[00:06:57] this vibrant online book community that I've been following forever and I'm just I'm just honored to have here. And I'm honored to be, what did she okay? Oh mind I can't see you. This place is legendary

[00:07:10] and I wrote a book about a girl, a black girl who didn't have access to black culture. And so it was very important for me to be here knowing what you do for books and for this community.

[00:07:24] So thank you so much for having me here. All right. So do you, should I say there's like a couple sentences on what the book is about? Yeah sure. This is your show. All right yes. So this is a story

[00:07:41] about it's sort of coming of age meets family saga about the 16 year old girl named Diamond Newberry who is struggling with what it means to be the only black girl in this all-white crumbling New England, Meltown. The story starts the beginning of this very fraught summer for

[00:07:58] her where she is you know living a very isolated life with a very complicated mother. She's he's relentlessly about her weight. She's learning to drive and secret. Her dad has been been missing for for seven years and this is the summer that they they hope to get

[00:08:18] that happened to Claire dead and get his insurance money. But she gets a letter from a relative that she's never heard of before and it kind of leads this correspondence that reveals family secrets.

[00:08:31] Secrets, you know, of the town and history and just really changes the course of her life. So that's that's the basics of the book. I'm going to read you a little bit of the prologue

[00:08:42] just to give you a flavor of how it starts and then I'm going to jump to a later section in the book and it's written from a couple of different perspectives, a couple of different women in the book

[00:08:51] and also Diamond from a nine year old diamond and then also 16 year old diamond. So I'm going to read later from 16 year old diamond. Picture my pop sneakers worn out and mud kicked from gardening,

[00:09:14] neatly positioned on the riverbank where the grass meets the sand. This is the place where the swift river is at it at its widest and deepest. Where a jungly mix of trees makes you feel like

[00:09:25] you're all alone in the wild somewhere, even though the road is so close you can hear cars humming on the other side. We come here as a family on hot summer nights, the one spot where we could splash

[00:09:36] around freely without people staring at our black white and brown parts. My even swam naked sometimes, her pale body like a light trail moving through dark water. Pop couldn't swim. He'd stand

[00:09:48] hip deep and hold me high in the air, launch me out from his arms like a cannonball. Over and over again I'd paddle back. His proud fluorescent smile my beacon. July 1st, the current is extra strong and the water is churning. Restless is my grandma

[00:10:04] silvi would say from summer rains. Pop leaves early that morning, long before mon mirrored of bed. He forgets to make me breakfast before he goes. He leaves the car in the driveway.

[00:10:15] When mock comes downstairs, he frowns at the door, wrestling with something on the other side of it. She moved to the window and beams her worried look out into the distance. I decide not

[00:10:26] to put sugar on my cereal even though no one's paying attention. Answers come to questions I don't ask. There isn't enough gas in the car for both her and pop. She has to get to her job

[00:10:36] and he has to go find one. He must be off on foot somewhere. Two days later his shoes turn up. Tucked inside them, his wallet and house keys. Pop is gone.

[00:10:55] I'm going to read from a scene so throughout the course of this book one of the major things that is happening is diamond you know has led a really isolated life with her mom. She's

[00:11:05] making her first friend and so I'm reading from a scene where she is telling her first friend a story about an experience that she used to have. Since her father had disappeared,

[00:11:27] people in the town say they see him around every time they see any black man so she's telling a story about that. Okay here it is. There is cursing in this one too. So no, don't do what I do.

[00:11:41] Okay okay so Shelley says the friends they're Michelley. She always says people have been seeing my dad for years just far enough a way to not get caught. They think he might finally turn up she

[00:11:56] says that we wicked crazy right? We're in her car after class, parked at Cumby's one of the hangout spots in rotation where the kids come to smoke and drink before they get chased out by

[00:12:06] cops and onto the next. Remember when that Harlem Globe trodder came to town to sign autographs at Bart's Sports Shop by Ask. It was a highlight we don't get famous people coming

[00:12:16] around here just the circus or actors from the lame soaps not like general hospital. He was wicked cute. Shelley says I say seven feet tall people would stop us on the street to ask if my dad was back.

[00:12:31] Back from the dead where he learned a toilet basketball in his finger shelly says. I'd beg my mom to take me to get an autograph for no good reasons since I didn't even like

[00:12:39] basketball. She wouldn't do it but grandma Sylvia did. The line to meet the Globe trodder went almost out the door. When grandma and me walked into the store he saw us right away. He was sitting

[00:12:51] behind a normal sized table but it looked like a school lunch tray on his lap. He was from another planet dark and awkward against all those happy white and pink people. He saw me in smiled and

[00:13:03] it was a smile that was just for me different than what he was giving all of the white kids crowded around him. They were either so scared they couldn't look him in the face or so hyper they

[00:13:12] grabbed it any part of his body they could get their hands on. The little ones crawled under the table to touch his big sneakers and he shook them off his feet like they were puppies.

[00:13:23] Grandma went right to the front of the line, leaned down and whispered something to him I couldn't hear. He nodded and stood up and a force like a strong wind came with him as he unwound his body

[00:13:32] and walked over to me. Ma on me and pop never got special treatment like this we never asked for it. The whole room gasped at his full height then bitched when he autographed a Bart's flyer for me.

[00:13:43] wrote a special note just for me, diamond the line cutter courtesy of grandma. He bent down and gave me a hug pulled my head right into his chest. I remember his knuckles were dark and

[00:13:54] dusty like they'd been dipped in powder just like pops. I couldn't stop staring at the line on the side of his fingers where the dark brown skin met that beige underside it was beautiful. I could smell sneaker rubber and cloned with sweat creeping through. I started to cry,

[00:14:11] grandma was so embarrassed, heanked me out of their apologizing she said a really bad day, a very shitty day that wasn't true. I had all this love for pop left over, I didn't know where to put it.

[00:14:30] I want to start off talking about your inspiration for the book you know what inspired you to tell the story and then how long did it take you to get the story to the page?

[00:14:46] I should say first that the first thing I ever wanted to do was write books. I got sidetracked, I was a glorious sidetrack with a very, very incredible creative career,

[00:14:56] but it was the first thing that I ever wanted to do and I always knew that I wanted to tell a story about a girl who was the only person of color in her town. That was my growing up experience.

[00:15:09] The book is completely fiction, it's also a test that quite a bit, right? Is this all about the time? There are basic facts that I share but I pull from them, it's kind of like, I say it's like the

[00:15:22] emotional engine underneath, underneath everything that's what I'm drawing from but everything is made up. But I really did always know that I wanted to tell that story and it kind of, you know,

[00:15:34] diamonds' voice came to me in pieces over the years and there were a couple of really key moments in my process where I was actually developing a writing practice and ended up going back to grad school.

[00:15:46] It started as a short story and then I saw an image of them, Ma, and Diamond, like on the side of the road and I just started writing to that image. So Diamond's voice came to you first. Diamond's voice

[00:16:02] came to me first, yeah. Did you always know she was going to be the protagonist in the story? There was a moment when the father also had a voice in the story and I had this really great thesis reader. Do you know the author of Victor LeValle?

[00:16:21] Yes, change language. That was my thesis reader so he read a earlier draft of the book and he said I don't this is not enough reason to leave Diamond you haven't given me and so I hadn't cracked the voice

[00:16:36] and I understood then a couple things that this was a book about women and he was far more effective hunting the book than having a point of view in the book and so I gave all of his chapters they

[00:16:52] became flashback chapters and what was happening to him over the course of a year, I then gave to a nine-year-old Diamond to see the change. It changed. Yeah, the change. So we're not going

[00:17:06] to do any spoilers because we want you to read the book but you mentioned your glorious career, just glorious. So how did you transcend what you learned in your career, the craft that you had

[00:17:20] for that particular year into being an author? What did you bring forth and what do you have to learn to do differently? Make your space offices is proud to sponsor this episode on the Mahagini

[00:17:39] books podcast network. Make your space is here to meet the needs of today's entrepreneurs, creatives and work from home professionals. We do this through private offices, co-working spaces, and a host of other resources including conference rooms, a photo and podcast

[00:17:55] studios, a creative workshop and a retail showroom that's perfect for any e-commerce brand. At Maker Space we are a hub for makers and shakers to build, brand and broadcast your business. Just mentioned code Mahagini for all current specials as we have two locations to best serve you.

[00:18:15] So be sure to visit us online at MakerSpaceOffices.com and remember, MakerSpace is where entrepreneurs work. So you know I'm a very visual writer, I don't know which came first and so that definitely that definitely is a part of it. I think that

[00:18:41] there is a discipline that comes from telling a shorter story and so my sort of sense of structure and always see I always know what's happening as seen and then I have to figure out how to get to it

[00:18:53] from what happens from beginning to end. But I think there really was the thing that stumped me for the longest was developing a writing practice. I was writing around the edges of my life for so long

[00:19:07] because it's you know, I can barely complain that was my day job, you know what I mean like it was a great day job, but you know to have to be I was giving so much of myself creatively to help other people tell

[00:19:20] their stories. There just wasn't a lot of juice left at the end of the day and actually it was it was during I worked at this channel called the N and I was part of Nickelodeon in via common

[00:19:36] and I had adapted a book by the writer Jacqueline Woodson called Miracles Boys and Jacqueline I became very good friends and she had a lot of people like me who writer, friends who didn't write

[00:19:51] and were not tending to their own stories and she said I'm going to start a group for you all and so that you can support each other and write and tend to your stories and it was

[00:20:03] so critical for me because a couple things happened I had I had all of us and I had a writing community and it was the beginning of a practice because I could finally see myself as a writer. I could let

[00:20:13] myself think that that was possible and so the thing of showing up and having to show up for your writing or feel guilty that you're not showing up for your writing like one of those two things was always

[00:20:24] present from from then from their on and I can imagine a being in the space of your former career there was a lot of collaboration going on but when you're writing you are solo I'm going to

[00:20:35] cave and how was that you know moving to that space? It is my entire creative life was spent creating with teams of people and so it was it was daunting to be in a loan with myself

[00:20:50] and the way I write is if you walked by a room it's like I might be laughing or crying it was just a crazy looking thing that's happening because I like I just fight for every sentence like

[00:21:03] I have to feel something strong for every sentence and so I think part I didn't answer you other question you don't know how long to read this book almost nine years wow nine years yeah

[00:21:13] it's worth the weight though worth the weight totally we were talking earlier and um you said you were a Virgo and I said what Virgo trait help you to write this book such a good

[00:21:28] question speak to my Virgo art and I said a co-is a two things I said the details all of the all of the space in this book for me and the humor that all of it is in the details and that's very

[00:21:43] Virgo thing and then the sensitivity we are deeply sensitive yes Virgos not quite as sensitive where is my Pisces brother yeah yes I have a Pisces daughter we talk so much about that

[00:21:59] it's a beautiful thing the thing about sensitivity is it's a gift but when it's out of balance not so much a gift you know it's just it's all about balance and that that for me

[00:22:11] I am able to feel a room in a way that's difficult sometimes and but also I I can channel that empathy and that that's my furgoness I think and so before we're going to dive into the story but

[00:22:23] I'm still curious about your publishing journey so how was that for you because I mean here you are what reading producer like was it easier for you to get into the publishing side of it because

[00:22:34] you know you're like hey I want to write a book if you have very funny coming to you like yeah we'll take it no I mean it's so they're so not connected I mean and the beauty so the agent that I have I mean the beautiful thing

[00:22:45] about her she's a and she's a very big very successful incredible agent but she reads everything that gets into her you know she's it's like you know when you're in that position you're looking

[00:22:54] for fresh voices and they can come from anywhere and so I it was actually more so my grad school community that helped me out I had a couple of people I had taken so long to my right my book all the

[00:23:07] people that I came out with had books and you know they had all these great connections and so someone got me an introduction to her but she asked you know my agent asked for 50 pages she read the 50 pages and

[00:23:19] and when I I shot for the moon I was like I'm gonna I'm gonna try for the very just the the best agent that I can and and then it was her name is Julie Barrett and she read the 50 pages and she said

[00:23:32] send me the rest of the book she's really fast reader she read it in like a weekend and then wanted to represent me and like I mean it doesn't normally happen that fast but it was you know I also feel like

[00:23:42] I don't know maybe I I earned a little grace with all that time yeah but it was um I really reworked in a way that um it was just it was it was it was it was it was it was good enough shape

[00:23:56] for her to see that it was something that she wanted to work on so I know one thing um when I picked when I got this galley I read Anna Palatano was the blurb and I knew at that moment I said okay

[00:24:12] this one is going to tear my heart apart because if Anna's blurbing it hello beautiful her book is absolutely amazing and so I knew from that moment that this was gonna be a special book my question

[00:24:24] to you I want to talk about Swit River the place um how you came to this place your descriptions of it are incredible you like you feel like you're there right and so what kind of research did you take

[00:24:40] to do to accurately depict the location what was going on and then what was even happening in the past because I think the past plays a huge role in the self discovery and the identity of diamond

[00:24:54] massive yeah so Swit River is a fictional town um I pulled for I grew up in a kind of an old New England mill town but it was it was more suburban than what I imagined Swit River would be so it

[00:25:08] was kind of like a moosh of a lot of the towns in the area it was also writing an upstate new work at the time so I was just I was pulling from all these places that I was that I was spending time

[00:25:19] and I really did have to do a lot of research about mill towns and you know there is a very particular thing that happens and I experienced it to some degree but when an industry is at the

[00:25:30] center of a place and then it leaves um it's haunted you know it's it's haunted it and it has you know obviously devastating financial impact and but I I wanted to get at the texture of that kind of

[00:25:40] haunting and so I did I did a ton of research um at a certain point I realized that I wanted the father to be rooted here somehow I didn't know if I wanted him to be a transplant from another

[00:25:54] place or if I wanted him to also have been and so I went looking for whatever I could find on the history of if there if there was a black communities in rural New England in the early in the

[00:26:07] century and I just I couldn't find much of anything and I stumbled across this book do you know what's on downtowns are you do you yeah yeah that's right um oh do you want to okay

[00:26:25] so the book that I found was called sundown towns a hidden dimension of American racism by name my name is Dr James Lohan who was who was sadly passed but he was a DC resident for

[00:26:36] many many years actually um and to my knowledge it's the only book written on the history of sundown towns people don't know the sundown town is it's an all-white town by design whether that's you know

[00:26:51] laws and ordinances or you know murder and terrorism and and the the name comes from the practice of this was starting all the way back in like 1890 of putting a science and I was right next

[00:27:06] to the welcome sign of the town that said black folk if you are coming through here you can pass who during the day but if you are caught after the sun sets you will be herder killed and I'm

[00:27:18] saying that much nicer than the way that the science at it so I just said I Swift River has to be a former so it's not a town that was that was it and that was how I sort of got all of these different

[00:27:34] layers of haunting and and you could you could I created sort of like the ripples of of what and there's it other part to it that I could talk about you know sorry the other part because it's in my nose

[00:27:47] I'm is it gonna give too much away because if we're talking about the leaving no yes yes so making it a sundown town because it kind of stood out to me is you know the uncovering of

[00:28:07] historical elements of what used to be there before right because there's a point in the book where the aunt tells diamond you know here you are laying your head down on top of a graveyard

[00:28:20] of the folks who did all the killing so if you want to talk a little bit about that because there was a community there that was not all white yeah it's a it's like a sprinkling of a spoiler it's on a

[00:28:36] full-on spoiler but I feel good so in this book I came across this one chapter that talked about the exceptions to the rule where they would sometimes there was sometimes allow one or two black people

[00:28:56] to stay to live in these towns they were kind of like the town negroes if they were domestic so these they spent large parts of their life indoors and I and I just it was like a lightning bolt hit me you know

[00:29:09] like I'm gonna make diamond descended from the only person who was allowed to stay behind after the rest of the black community was was violently chased out and so I created it was a you know this is a

[00:29:20] kind of thing that had happened that happened in historically but I created an entire sort of fiction around it was called it was called leaving and and in that way I mean it really just it just cracked a

[00:29:34] book open for me because all of a sudden now I had I had an opportunity to give my girl some roots I had an opportunity to tell two different stories about being the only one in the same town

[00:29:48] and and sort of have them in a way speaking together to each other across across time and wow that was really powerful because you you gave her roots but you know you when reading this story

[00:30:02] in the context of believing it brought me to think a lot about where people were leaving the south the great migration going up people were leaving the north going down right or anywhere west

[00:30:15] wherever and so with diamond being the only one because in society you mean you know as women black women we're sometimes the only one in spaces we're sometimes the only one at the table and so I

[00:30:26] heard you talk about black identity and the absence of black culture and so can we're coming to diamond now because here she is you know she doesn't have any black culture around her in her town

[00:30:41] and really not in the presence of her home and so can you talk a little bit about that yeah I'm going to really get back to myself again um and my own experience uh you know my family and I we were one of

[00:30:55] the few people of color in the in the in the town where we grew up and um it is a very particular experience we were talking before about this book by Claudia Rinkin called Citizen I don't know if any of you

[00:31:09] have read it but um she talks about this experience of like microaggressions essentially like you know what what it feels like to be heard by friends and people that you love and that that to me

[00:31:24] I realized that that was actually a much more important story for me to tell than you know there is there is loud screaming racism in this book of of all but but what was much more interesting

[00:31:38] was um this young girl having to form an identity in the absence of black culture while she was I called them like small daily wounds from people that that that she loves who who were hurting her

[00:31:53] and sometimes about understanding that that was what was happening and and the ways that she had to swallow that pain part of the you know this is just my girl is is in a bigger body she's 298

[00:32:06] pounds and um part of that is a metaphor for all that that's swallowing that she she had to do so so yeah I mean yeah you answered it then there's so much in the book let me tell you guys

[00:32:20] because there's like the fraught mother daughter relationship um and then diamond herself I think the best part for me one of the best parts is when she finally makes the connection to her black family and what it does for her not gonna tell you

[00:32:41] but I want to know she's 16 and so I want you to describe her in five words and tell us a little bit about the evolution of diamond five words okay this is the best thing I can say she's weird

[00:33:00] she's a little weird and I love that about her she's honest she's resilient she's powerful it's that poor she's scared yeah a little lost and how I'm going oh no no I was just I

[00:33:20] it's it's such a great like the evolution of her you know I realized at a certain point that I was giving a lot of pain for her to carry and so um at a certain point when I realized you know

[00:33:36] one from being short story to novel and I was like fine-tuning her voice I mean there were a couple of things I had to give I had to give her a voice I I I needed to make her funny or at least have

[00:33:49] a comedic filter and so that was that was one thing and then there was a lot that she was running from but I needed to figure out what she was running towards and so that was when Shelley the friend

[00:34:01] came into play and I said she has to she has to that has to be part of her journey and then that's when her her black on on came in and that was when I realized no you know part of this she wants to leave

[00:34:11] this town but she wants to know who she is also as a way because she's you know the father's just appearances is the great mystery of her life yeah it is the great mystery of her life and I like

[00:34:22] through out the book there's so many symbols and even like his car that was left behind how that becomes a refuge for her um what she receives from the aunt just the connection and I'm glad that

[00:34:36] you gave her a friend because I was like really sad for her for the majority of the story because I felt like her mother was just so oblivious to her needs and I want to talk about how co-dependent

[00:34:52] her mom was for her but at the moment and they were very close right but at the moment she made the connection and finding her roots how it shifted the dynamic of their relationship

[00:35:08] well so the first thing I have to say um this mother is nothing like my mother and I mean that from like like I actually with so much intention created this one this mother is crazy and my mother is

[00:35:23] the opposite like you know my mom can't even have like a glass of wine unmet her like a pill pop or you know there's no there's no and the further that I pushed her away from my own mother honestly

[00:35:34] the more it felt like okay I'm talking about grief and mourning right they're both grieving and mourning this this this father they don't know that he's gone they don't know if he's dead they don't

[00:35:45] if he's alive but they're in mourning and they're both the mothers mourning is stuffing everything down and keep and keep moving and and diamond doesn't want to stay in it because she wants to

[00:35:58] believe that he could could still be alive and so um in that way they are just teathered to each other and it's also a very teenage thing right I mean it's like you know I think what complicates it is

[00:36:14] that I wrote a parent who loved her child fiercely but was failing her so tragically you'll see this in the story how she's failing her just like on the little things that the milestones that teenagers

[00:36:33] are supposed to have and her suppression of those milestones it's just to keep her with her um we're gonna open it for audience and questions in one second but I want to ask two questions

[00:36:48] how have you received or enjoyed the impact of this book to readers of all races because this has been embraced by you know she's by reshale but it's literally centering a black young girl

[00:37:02] right and so how do you how do you how do you feel about how it's resonating with people and what do you want readers to take away it's it's it's mind blowing I mean I I am looking

[00:37:15] if I had a publisher I don't have like a sad debut story where I had to fight to get it like my my publisher Simon and Schuster they were they were behind this and they came with force

[00:37:25] in and obviously they know what they're doing and understanding how to recruit so there were a lot of even before publication there were a lot of they sent out a lot of galley is a lot of

[00:37:32] advanced reader copies to people that to to to book influencers to to get them to to weigh in and start talking about it and so I had been hearing I had been hearing from people but this past week

[00:37:45] you know it's like people that real book lovers who like got the book and then read it in the night and then reach out to me at three in the morning crying like on on IG it's it's absolutely

[00:37:56] overwhelming and better than I could have ever imagined because I am taking to you know your point now I'm centering this black girl in a big body and these are characters that don't

[00:38:12] often get humanized yeah and the best compliment I got was from this actually it's not the best one of the best this this white woman who reached out to me on IG and she said my life is

[00:38:25] nothing like this girl I felt like I was in her skin like inside her skin and so that to me I want I want them to empathize not pity her that that is like and think about their own

[00:38:41] families and histories and also pick up on some of the things that they may do while whether out in the world I mean you're writing is so beautiful that you can't help but to empathize with her

[00:38:52] and on my last question what did you learn about yourself in writing the story? so many things so many things I think I'm going to answer that with a process answer which is

[00:39:09] I learned that that that I have more stories because I really I think that I think that they were moments when I didn't know that that was true I just thought maybe this was it

[00:39:18] and I knew that I was through with the book I was done with a book when I started thinking about my next book and so you know a writing practice is showing up to write that's all it is

[00:39:32] and that there are all of these things about that process that I have transferred over to my life that were just have been some of the greatest lessons so you know showing up for my writing knowing

[00:39:43] that I the well will not run dry has been transformative for me so awesome we're ready for audience questions first of all please give it a for jamees and s.c. chambers thank you awesome you know it was

[00:40:10] funny I'm gonna call them out but I was watching your brother John chamber so I'm let me put this story out here really quickly before going to QA Q&A I met John who is the owner and founder of

[00:40:20] Bloomberg shout out to Bloom yes yes and all those years ago when we created my Hague New Books we didn't have these this platform these stores we were just looking for people who wanted

[00:40:32] to partner with us and we went to this dope event at Bloom bars and there's an amazing singer who lives in DC was there and my husband I were on date nine it was just a vibe we were like this place

[00:40:42] so so beautiful the energy was I mean just amazing and so we were looking for places to partner with Bloom bars was the place we wanted to bring story times in books and all that kind of stuff so I'm

[00:40:55] excited to see you in the audience but what I was going to say was watching him watch you I mean he was in throw like an audience member he's your brother so it's like ten times already but it just it's just

[00:41:05] really lends itself to the story that you've written to the power of that's on these pages and to the story that a lot of us who haven't read it yes saw some people who hadn't read it just yet but

[00:41:14] that we'll be able to engage with so congratulations on so much so amazing so much thank you yeah that was that wonderful all right so I do want to open it for next week oh yeah I'm just going

[00:41:24] to say because I just want to I just have to give a shout to my brother for a second because he has been creative inspiration creative partner his love and spirit is all over this book

[00:41:41] and he's moroc so I want to I want to thank him and I want to thank my other rock in the audience who is my cousin Cody he's like my secret sauce he he has supported me and just like such and I

[00:41:57] don't ever get a chance to say how much how much that's meant to me so let's give it up for family brother put you on the spot but I will open up for a few questions anybody yet brave enough

[00:42:11] bold enough let me know if not we'll go to Q&A or the book signing but this question yes so I can see hi I think so much writing this book my name is Grace I somehow was lucky enough to

[00:42:33] receive a copy of this book earlier yeah it was it was perfect it was it was synergistic you know it was perfect but somehow it was lucky enough to I think to receive yeah an early copy maybe

[00:42:45] I think around February went to a DC event and they had it and I had no idea anything I just picked up the book and just finished it at this weekend so it was perfect and then found out you all were having

[00:42:55] so I'm so happy to be here I'm so happy to be talking to you and I'm going to try not to give any spoilers in my question but I wanted to I know so much of like diamonds um story is about her being

[00:43:07] alone and navigating that loneliness but also kind of coming into herself by being alone but then you know you added some friends you know especially around her yeah you added some friends and so

[00:43:21] and so I wanted to see if you could share anything about the company that you chose for her to keep and why you chose some of those characters or at least some of those characteristics yeah all

[00:43:31] stick a shelly because the other yeah it's a great it's a great question um shelly is a who shelly I describe as um the way you meet her she's a slutty slut that's what that's how that's

[00:43:44] her she's no the way to say it and I and and just is just sort of owns her own sexuality her you know her wildness um she could appreciate diamond in in very specific ways that I think that if she wasn't

[00:44:05] an outsider she wouldn't be able to do um she was also incredibly imperfect in her love for diamond it was important to me that she not get it right and and you know the microaggressions stuff that we

[00:44:17] were talking about that she but I think also um I wanted I wanted the scenes between them to feel light and that was really important to me that that well light and heavy at the same time I mean

[00:44:30] I got to me is always the goal in the book I had I had um at all times when I was writing a two postits one said tell the truth and the other said make yourself laugh and that was like my you know that

[00:44:41] was for me but that was also for diamond and shelly because I think I think you know she's a person that I hope people can laugh at a little bit um but yeah so it was it was I also think that there's

[00:44:54] something really interesting see to like see a person making a friend for their first time and all the things that we understand that comes out of friendship and connection she's just learning

[00:45:04] so um and hope I just wanted you know I wanted to have to have something to feel hopeful about so thank you for reaching out to me too that was really sweet another question yes hello hello hello

[00:45:23] I was going to ask what process do you have finding the voice of somebody that age at both did you have to do anything weird to the diamond at those ages it's a great question

[00:45:40] I you know I think well first of all I have a theory that we are all trapped at some age of trauma like we're all permanently and like I think I'm permanently 13 or 14 how old are you you

[00:46:01] so I have a I have a former colleague Pierre in the room who like me worked with sort of kid and teen television and film for a very long time and I just think that I love writing for that age

[00:46:16] so much there there is it's like the greatest moment of growth and you know everyone understands what it means to be that age just viscerally the intensity of feeling then I didn't there doesn't

[00:46:31] even really need to be a lot of drama in order for you to make things dramatic so I think it was a combination of channeling whatever teenage essays in me but also really working and for a very long

[00:46:45] time to make to tell stories for that group for that group and really understanding what it means to respect how to represent what they're feeling and thinking because diamond needed to be wise but not

[00:47:00] too wise you know very emotionally intelligent but like the reader still needs to kind of know more than she does and so all of that stuff I think was just a lot of it was my experience in teen television

[00:47:16] high essay hi I think when I finished the book I texted you immediately just to say like I missed diamond now that I've closed the book and TV and film people the other thing I said was when are we getting

[00:47:31] the like television series film I'm here for it I'm ready for it but my question is when you were writing this story did you know where it was going like where diamond was going to

[00:47:49] end up or like did diamond have to kind of lead you there such a great question you know there was a central there was a central there was a central question I was answering like and it is

[00:48:02] I say this in the beginning the book it's a story about leaving all different kinds of leaving and I knew it was going to come down to will she stay or will she go so I knew the answer

[00:48:12] to that question I didn't know anything else and and it really wasn't until I discovered all of these layers and it was I mean I have I have three first person present voices in this story talking

[00:48:29] from different time periods and it took me so long to in it was a little you know my editor and my agent like just finding that connective tissue and making sure that those pieces were

[00:48:42] in conversation with each other and I didn't want you know for diamonds present day it was taking place over the course of three months and I knew that I did not want there to be big giant

[00:48:51] leaps of growth I wanted there to be baby steps and I wanted people to feel those those baby steps you know the ripples of those so that was the other thing it was like I didn't want her

[00:49:00] to just you know lose weight and all the things that normally happened with the girl like that so it was an inner transformation that was happening as I answered that question and she got

[00:49:10] to understand who she was how did how did diamond get born how did she create in your mind how did she come to be so thank you Rileen that's a great question my neighbor from

[00:49:33] I don't I'll age me too much if I say how long go but it might my dear friend um I knew the facts of her I knew like I said the you know that she was gonna be the only one I knew that

[00:49:45] she was gonna I knew that she was gonna live an isolated existence with her mother but it took a long time for her voice to crystallize for me and I think a lot of that was around like

[00:49:55] she has to carry pain but it cannot wait wait this book down like the I have to have that light and dark always and it wasn't until I wrote uh the first two sentences of the book

[00:50:09] I told this story out you know y'all gonna have to tell me this is a good story to tell it maybe too much TMI but when I was in grad school I had this person who was a reader from me she's

[00:50:18] really critical not very nice about it not not not my ideal reader and she she read a chapter and she called a cute or something like that and that's like that's a fighting words you know

[00:50:31] cute and so um in a fit of like I can write I don't write cute I've rewrote the beginning and it must have been diamond coming out in me because the first two sentences were born and they were

[00:50:45] the summer I turned 16 I'm so fat I can't write and I might write my bike anymore so I let it get stolen on purpose and the thing that those two sentences did for me was say this girl is desperate

[00:50:58] I'm coming to her at a moment of of of crisis but she still has agency and she's choosing even in a moment of of of desperation to show that she has agency to me that was what that was who she was

[00:51:11] should I tell that story ever out loud again I can't yeah even the even the friend of me part of it okay cute cute it's just that yeah those are fighting words if you say anything is cute

[00:51:26] we'll do one more question hi I see it's Melanie over here oh hi sweetie um so you mentioned the word hope a few minutes ago curious to know what you hope people will think feel do as a result of this book

[00:51:51] think feel do I think going back to this idea of empathy for for a girl if you are diamond I want you to feel respected and seen and that's it that's important actually you know diamond

[00:52:07] sits at the intersection of all these different ways of being other and I do have to remind myself that there are a lot of diamonds that are accessing this book and that's that's incredibly powerful to

[00:52:17] me to think about so I can't wait to see how they feel when they when they access this book and then if you're nothing like diamond I want you to have I want you to feel how it feels to move

[00:52:28] through the world in this body and then just more broadly I think I want people to think about their families and their and their histories and untold stories that are a part of our history you know I mean

[00:52:43] I learn this in the documentary that I made before this like oral history is not a lesser history and that's how you know that's how so many of our you know stories that are not part of the

[00:52:56] the dominant culture are carried forward and that's history so you know I I even this is fiction but it's also you know a piece of history that I want people to learn more about

[00:53:09] please give it up again for S.E. Chambers Swift River yeah thank you again thank you Discover World where words ignite change tune in to blackbooks matter the podcast where we celebrate the profound impact of African American literature join us as we delve into

[00:53:31] iconic words and hidden gems discussing their power to shape minds and transform societies get ready for thought provoking discussions author interviews and insights that don't miss out subscribe to blackbooks matter the podcast and your favorite podcast platform and let the voices of African American authors resonate with you