Reflections on the Legacy of Black Bookstores in America

[00:00:01] This is the MahoganyBooks Podcast Network.

[00:00:31] And how we're seeing ourselves and that comes through all those pages on the shelves. And so every day as an entrepreneur, we're making those decisions. We're hearing other voices saying, oh, don't censor this. And we're like, well, we might censor some stuff, right? And I say censor in a way that we get to choose and be intentional about what people see and how we see ourselves. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming from MahoganyBooks, Derek Young.

[00:01:09] What's going on guys? How you doing? Lip it up. Lip it up, lip it up. Yep. All right. What's going on? Ain't better? Awesome. How's everyone doing today? This is an awesome day. I just want to say this is, um, I don't want to say it's historic. It might be a little bit hyperbolic, but I've been impacted by bookstores, books all my life.

[00:01:34] And I've been inspired and encouraged by a lot of these individuals who want to speak today. By the things that they've done. By the things that they've done. And the fact that we get to highlight this conversation here and talk about the impact of books, our stories on our lives is an amazing, amazing thing. Um, so with that, I'm excited again. I am Derek Young.

[00:01:59] I am one of the co-owners of Mahogany Books along with my beautiful wife, Ramona Young, who is going to be on the panel, uh, this evening. But I am excited to first get to introduce to you guys the author of this incredible book that we're here to celebrate today. Black owned Miss Char Adams. Please give a round of applause to her while I read her bio.

[00:02:24] Char Adams is an award winning journalist and senior investigative reporter for the popular true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Formerly with NBC News and People Magazine. Char's work is a Char's work on race. Um, ooh, I messed where I'm Char's work on race and identity has appeared in the New York Times, The New Republic, Vice and elsewhere. Her debut nonfiction book, Black owned the revolutionary life of the black bookstore, um, is out today.

[00:02:52] An incredible book, incredible read, and we're going to be here to discuss it today. Welcome Char Adams. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So next, uh, we're going to introduce. Shereke Yana Dreamer y'all saying Kofa is you guys the bomb. Yes. Yes. Fantastic store.

[00:03:19] Been an incredible inspiration to myself personally. Great impact on my life, um, growing up here in the city. So I'm going to read a little bit about Shereke Yana. Come on down, Miss Jarema. Shereke Yana Ana is an award winning independent filmmaker, film educator, and owner of Sankofa Video and Bookstore and Cultural Center in Washington, D.C. She was born and raised in Detroit where she was shaped by the political and cultural activism of the 1960s and 70s.

[00:03:45] She also credits this era with the definition and aura of Sankofa Bookstore, where black literature and arts flourish amidst community interaction. Please welcome Shereke Yana. Y'all love her bookstore going in. I like to be looking at her shelves all the time. And we do too. Yeah, it's, it's incredible. Okay. This next person I'm going to bring one out.

[00:04:12] Uh, I gotta be like the biggest, do the biggest applause here, or else I'm gonna get in trouble. Um, Ramunda Lark Young, uh, is a passionate speaker, committed community leader and dedicated entrepreneur. She is the co-founder and owner of Mahogany Books, a nationally recognized and award winning bookstore in Washington, D.C. Created with her husband, Derek Young. Please, huge round of applause for my wife, Ramunda Lark Young.

[00:04:41] Um, she is awesome y'all. She has the personality of Mahogany Books is, has a lot to do with what Ramunda brings to it. Uh, her love for people, um, the way she cares on people is just incredible. So she's huge, huge part of what we do and what she does for black bookstores.

[00:05:05] Um, I also want to point out that she does a whole bunch of training, uh, for black booksellers through the Black Bookstore Coalition. So always giving of herself. Uh, this brother here, I consider a personal mentor. Um, I've been interacting with this guy since the 1990s. Yes, I'm telling my age a little bit.

[00:05:24] Um, uh, but Barbara Coates, Paul Coates is renowned publisher, printer, activist and former bookstore owner, uh, based in Baltimore, best known for founding black classic press in the night in 1978 to republish obscure works by the people of African descent, a former black Panther Party member. He has also created BCP digital printing. Please welcome Barbara Paul Coates. Okay.

[00:05:54] Um, hello. Hello. Y'all fucking hear me. So first and foremost, I just want y'all to understand the gravity of what is happening right now. This is 60 years of passion of like book seller-ness vibes. Okay. This is a lot, you know, and I want to just briefly talk about brother Paul Coates here.

[00:06:19] Um, I first talked to him back in probably like 2022. And he has become a like spiritual guide for, for, um, for, um, this book.

[00:06:35] He has been a close personal, um, mentor who, who, who has helped to guide me with a lot of grace and a patient. And like, sometimes he would have to like, like, set me straight. Like, girl, no, if you don't take this out of that book now. I'm like, Oh, okay. King, I'm sorry.

[00:07:05] Like, um, no. So I am really thankful and I'm really, um, you know, just, um, I am very, I'm blessed to like, to have been able to, you know, um, learn, learn from you. So, so yeah. Thank you so much. All right, Char. This, so. Can I say something? Yes, sir. I hope you might be. I hope you're not going to say anything, but if I should just.

[00:07:35] Can you say something about me? I am. It's fine. Because it's Char saying, look, I've been around, I've been doing black books for a long time. And I always knew the significance and importance of those books. I've saved records to make sure that that history was preserved because I knew that someone was going to write about it. I didn't feel that I was going to be the person to take it on, but I knew that someone was going to write about it.

[00:08:02] And what happens is two black women came to me basically at the same time to write about it. And they produced two magnificent books. So to understand this, you have, I was clear on the history that my role was to preserve records so that the history could be told. To have that history manifested and to have it written as well as it has been written by this book is just a tremendous blessing.

[00:08:32] And I just want to acknowledge Char for the role, for her role in The Intrigues. Thank you. Sure. With that, can I ask a first question? Because I want to start with Char actually to kind of set the foundation for this conversation and then we'll alternate on questions and things like that. But really that is the first question. Why this book and why now? Oh man. Oh man.

[00:08:59] So I first came to, I first came to black owned bookstores like back in 2018. I read this piece in, in the Atlantic by, by, by Joshua Clark Davis.

[00:09:23] And he wrote this amazing piece about how black owned bookstores were, were targeted in the, the, the, the 60s and the, the 70s.

[00:09:46] And so I loved that piece, but I, but I came away from it just kind of, um, I wanted to know more in terms of what that targeting, um, looked like and like what it felt like as well. Right.

[00:10:08] So I just basically started like tracking down different black booksellers from that time. And so I wasn't planning to like, to like, to like write a book. I just wanted to basically know their like business. Okay. I was just like, and what happened next girl? What? Like, like back there kind of thing.

[00:10:37] No, but I wanted to collect the, I wanted to, um, collect those, like, um, those, those stories. Right. And so I wrote my own piece about it and, um, and, and, and, um, 2020.

[00:11:01] And then I was contacted, um, by an agent who had like read some of my like different work and, and, uh, just kind of said, Hey, come in, come in. Like, and write a book, you know?

[00:11:22] And so I said, I don't want to spend years writing about anything else except for black owned, black owned bookstores. And so I came to it and like that way, but I didn't know what, what this journey would do in me.

[00:11:44] Um, I started to write in like 2021 and now it's 2026 and I have changed drastically just by the people I've, I've met and, and by how much you guys have like poured in, in to me. So I don't just feel like I gave something to the like world through, through this book.

[00:12:12] I feel like writing this book has also changed me as well. Yeah. Um, I love the, I know you have the next question, but in the very beginning of the introduction, I would set the tone for me for the, for the book is you say, I love to tell people's stories. Um, and that really, for me, like set the, set the major tone for this book. So you have a question for, Oh yes.

[00:12:40] So my first question is actually, it's actually for, for, um, for, um, Derek and, um, and Munda.

[00:13:01] Um, so one thing that I touch on in this book is that y'all started, um, y'all started your online shop back in like 2007. Right. So y'all were forward, forward thinking. Thinking right.

[00:13:25] And like terms of y'all saw what the, um, internet and you know, what the, um, online space was like turning into and said, Hey, let's tap into that. Right. And so y'all were forward thinking and, you know, so now it's 2026.

[00:13:48] And I would love to know, like, how do y'all engage with, with like, with, with, um, technology now in terms of like social media, like audio books. How, yeah.

[00:14:13] Like how are you guys, um, um, engaging with this new techie social media e vibes, you know, that are out here today. Yes. So hi, good afternoon. Um, first of all, thank you all for being here. Thank you, Shara, for writing this amazing book. Thank you. I mean, I go down Bible code, Shariqiana, husband, everything. Um, I think when we started our business back in 2007, it was important to us.

[00:14:43] We are, we were part of another kind of business group and the terminology high tech high touch came about. And it stuck with us as we talked about, you know, what is our bookstore going to look like? Your ancestor story is proof that strength and dignity endure, even when everything else is taken away. When it comes to honoring that legacy, your privacy should never be in question. At African ancestry.com, your story and your information belong to you.

[00:15:11] We destroy every DNA sample and never sell or share your data with anyone. Discover where in Africa, your story began accurately and safely with African ancestry.com. Also real talk, um, funds. So to have a physical brick and mortar at that time, I believe in 2007, it was another recession at that time.

[00:15:35] And so looking at what it would cost to pay rent and have staff and have inventory was not, not the best way for us at that time. But having a site that really was high touch, high tech was something that, that resonated. And so for us, how do we create a space that was, um, in that time could reach as many people across the United States as possible with small amount of capital. And real quickly, I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I grew up, um, a near black, what he said, hmm, do y'all know where Tulsa? Okay.

[00:16:03] Sorry. Grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, maybe a mile and a half from black wall street. And I never knew black wall street was there because it never was taught in my schools. And so when Derek and I started talking about, you know, creating a bookstore, um, that came to mind for me, he started it. He has his own reasoning path how he started it. But, um, I never wanted people who lived in Idaho, uh, Idaho and Iowa, wherever they live to not have access to books.

[00:16:28] So online, creating this community online that was high touch, high tech, uh, was something important to us. And there were bookstores that were online, but we kept, I mean, when I say tinkering and I'm saying like I did it, but he was tinkering up in the middle of the night, trying to create, you know, um, these spaces where we could connect at that point, Facebook was not there. Um, but, um, I forgot, was it, um, my space. So we saw these people interacting on my space. We were like, how do we bring this over to the book space and have a space where authors could show up, hadn't, and,

[00:16:58] and readers could show up. And I mean, just kept trying to tinker with it, tinker with it, tinker with it, because we knew the importance of community, no matter where you live in the United States. And we did not want somebody to not have access to our culture and history because someone else deemed it necessary or not. So for us technology in this space, it was how we, that's how we started in our one bedroom apartment in Alexandria with an idea, a laptop and a dream of how do we make black books accessible. And so that has continued down social media, of course. Um, but social media wasn't there when we first started.

[00:17:28] Uh, it may have been very, um, beginning, but, um, it was really, uh, when I think of technology and us, it was really us getting out, um, for the high touch piece and connecting with people at festivals and, and, and, you know, doing book clubs and conferences and taking all those names and those emails that we had amassed over years and bringing them into our website and our, um, email. So that we could, again, create that, that tech connection that people mostly wouldn't get. So, um, it had always, it's always been a part of what we've done.

[00:17:58] Social media just escalates it. And I'll let Derek talk about some of that because we're doing podcasts. We talk about social media, um, talk about technology, um, audio books. Absolutely. Um, we were streaming our book club talks. Uh, we were one of the first black bookstores in the pandemic that said, um, how do we go live on this whole internet and everybody's at home? How do we create our book talks right there? One of the first black bookstores who did that because community never left our minds. High touch, touch me and me connecting with you never left our minds.

[00:18:28] And so that was kind of some of the things that we looked at and continue to look at now. Yeah, I think, um, a lot of it is driven by out of necessity. And I think, uh, when you, when you look at number one, black folk overall, especially here in this country, a lot of our innovation comes out of necessity. You know, how do, how do we survive? How do we communicate with each other? How do we build community?

[00:18:51] Um, and work through the small avenues that are left for us, you know, uh, after all the obstacles have been erected. Um, so thinking about finances, not having the ability to just go out and get a loan for a bookstore because banks don't see that as a viable option.

[00:19:13] Um, uh, understanding that, uh, you know, we were in an era with the dot com boom, turn, bust and seeing that no one was really taking the internet, um, seriously in delivering black books to people across the country. Right. Right. So, and a lot of that came from my wife talking to her. I'm from DC. So I'm used to saying Kofa books.

[00:19:39] I'm used to, you know, being able to go to blue now, whatever it is I wanted to do. I had access to it. I talked to my wife about these things. She was in and visiting her for the first time. I was like, Hey, let's go to the black bookstore. She was like, what? I mean, like, where's your, your black stuff at? Will we go and do black? Like I'm from DC. Like, that's what I assumed the world was like. And it wasn't there. I'm like, Oh, this is crazy. So we started having conversations.

[00:20:08] Well, how do we get what I have access here to these in DC to places that did not have access to it? We finally figured out how to get a website. And one of our very first customers was a young lady from West Virginia. The very epitome of what we were talking about. So even today, when we talk about AI, when we talk about the decentralization of community, of media, beginning to tell our own stories.

[00:20:38] And when I have conversations like this, like this stuff needs to be recorded. Boba Coast is talking about archiving all this information. But we don't, most of it, of these clips of stuff, we don't own. How do we figure out a way with technology now that it's a little bit more accessible to us? How do we create innovation to find ways so that we own it?

[00:21:01] So that when we're building community, when we're creating experiences, that we're telling our stories in a way that is authentic to us. And that's what just drives it. Like it's just always trying to figure out how do we better serve and offer value to our community? Because, you know, you all deserve it. Because I had access to it growing up here in D.C. and trying to figure out how do we then pay that forward in the new generation.

[00:21:28] So that that's my add on question answered for the wife there. But I want to bring the Sharikiana in on this conversation, because, again, like I firmly recall the late 1990s, me being in college and I went to Bowie State. And all my days that, you know, I made sure I had certain days off. I did my classes Monday, Wednesday, Friday. So Tuesday, Thursday, I could hang out and party.

[00:21:56] And some of those days we would jump on a bus and train and come down to the city. And it was like just we were going to Sankofa. Like that's just what we did. And it began it really helped to plant that seed for me what it was that I wanted to do with my life. So I would love for you to speak a little bit about, you know, your like how did you get here?

[00:22:25] Your why touched on a little bit in your bio. But would love to hear from you, because I think it's an incredible story for us to hear and appreciate your microphone. OK, you can hear me, right? Yes. So thank you, everybody, for inviting me here.

[00:22:48] I do appreciate being in the company of people who are pioneers and people who are not afraid to do things. Because, you know, the fear of it can be translated into the energy of it. And I think that's probably what we've done. Just say, OK, I'm scared, but what else can I do? You have to kind of take that and channel it like an actor. You take that tension and channel it into your performance.

[00:23:16] So I think that's something that all of us can kind of use when we're afraid of doing something. And that's kind of how I've existed as a filmmaker, kind of how I've existed as a short-term teacher. It's kind of how we got into the book space as well, because we didn't know we couldn't. And so that was helpful, because here we are doing a little bit of something.

[00:23:43] And so Sankofa basically came about because we were, the bookstore came about because we were making a movie that also couldn't be made. We were, my husband, Hailey, had a script about resistance during slavery. And interestingly enough, that script was inspired because he wanted to talk about resistance within a prison system.

[00:24:09] So this idea kind of blossomed into, you know, where do we resist most? What is our history of resistance? And when he came to this country from Ethiopia, where he was born, he was very attracted by, you know, again, 1967, which is a highlight in your book. And I think that was when you also started your, Paul, 1967. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young.

[00:24:37] Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, black books matter.

[00:25:05] When you started 1967, when you started your bookstore? Bookstore started in 72. 72. But a monumental year in the history of black resistance in this country. So that's when he came. So he got completely absorbed in this idea of black resistance and identity and understanding that he was a black person. And so the idea of the Sankofa script grew and grew and grew.

[00:25:33] We decided we could make it on basically no money. Somehow we figured that out. Then we made the movie and realized we had no way to distribute it. The community helped us figure that part out. And because I think it addressed such an empty space in us in terms of understanding that slavery was a resistance embedded era.

[00:26:02] And that we have people to thank and cultures within our African culture to thank for our being here because they resisted. It hit a nerve with people. So it was just logical that if we started, when we finally got this building, which we mortgaged our house to get on Georgia Avenue. If we want to start a bookstore, it's logical to call it Sankofa.

[00:26:28] Going back to your past in order to understand your future and shape your future. Because there are some tools back there that you can grab that aren't new. You don't have to refashion your tools. You can go ahead and use them. So that's the bookstore. And of course, that's the place where we try to make more movies that we don't know we can't make. And we just keep doing that. And, you know, we plot along.

[00:26:53] And with the community support and really, you know, walking sticks, those sticks that help you keep walking, that's what the community is to Sankofa. And so that's how we manage to stay around and try to do a little bit of something while we're on the planet. Fantastic. Awesome. Yes. Yes.

[00:27:21] That is the perfect segue to my next question. Sankofa has been this community pillar now for a long time.

[00:27:44] Like, I just came from there and I had a little chicken patty, some little tea. I felt, you know, cool. I was like, wow, this is really nice.

[00:28:02] No, but one thing that I touch on in the book is how the community around Sankofa is so, like, loyal to, you know, y'all. They don't play about y'all. And I love that. But, yes.

[00:28:35] And I talk about in the book how y'all built that from the ground up. Like, I was talking to you probably back in 2023.

[00:28:56] And you talked about having a children's book time in, like, those, like, very early years where it would be, like, one or two kids. And then that turned into five and ten, right?

[00:29:20] So, y'all have really built this community base from the ground up.

[00:29:42] So, I would love to know, like, if there are ways that, like, new booksellers can kind of, like, replicate that. Or, yeah.

[00:30:11] So, like, how would you, what advice would you give to new booksellers trying to build a loyal base like that? Well, thank you for that question. You're right. You know, that we did start, you know, with a children's reading. In fact, in your book you say that I was, like, the anchor of that.

[00:30:40] But I really have to thank a lot of women in the community. And men, too. Who would come by and volunteer to tell those stories. And at one time we would even recruit Howard students to be, like, storytellers and then also assistants to the storytellers. So, we tried to kind of create a culture of, you know, intergenerational literature.

[00:31:04] And so, I think that was one thing that helped us to, you know, make sure we were always woven and interwoven with the community. And I think Mahogany also does this, too. You have a commitment to new authors. Because as difficult as that is to manage, because it's not like they've got people reaching out for them to do this work. You really do work with the author.

[00:31:33] And, you know, it might be 17 emails compared to one or two, you know, with a large publisher. We try to devote time to that. But I would wish we could do an even better job because there's so much talent in our community. And people really do want to have a place where they can grow and learn. And if you can have a place to present your work, that's how you grow and learn, you know. Audience responses and then afterwards the conversations.

[00:32:00] And so, that's, I think, one way that we keep that connection going. You know, there's so many ways. You just make sure that you, if there are other bookstores that are, and I hope there are a lot of bookstores or people planning to open their own bookstore. What we are doing here in this area is just, you know, a drop in the bucket of what could happen.

[00:32:24] You know, imagine if there are more bookstores in this, black bookstores in this area that could, you know, do even more to raise the literacy rate. So that more people come, you know, think of a bookstore as a thing to do on their day off at school. In fact, one of the things in your book that I was really impressed with was a quote from Ruggles. Yes. David Ruggles. Ruggles. David Ruggles, who had a bookstore in 1835 in New York.

[00:32:55] And he sold groceries and books, and he called it butter and books. I mean, not the, but that was like one of the things I sell, butter and books. You know, it's, and so one of the things that he was saying was that, and of course I've lost my point, but the idea that you have to build with the community that you know you're working with.

[00:33:19] And I think in his book, he was saying that for us, for a bookstore to be there is very important for that community at whatever level. And that inspires me too, because I think that's what bookstores have to do. And you, you are, the community that you grow with is the community that is committed to you. And we see ourselves definitely growing hand in hand with our community.

[00:33:44] And the idea of gentrification being something that threatens our community absolutely threatens us. Because one of the sad things that comes with gentrification are things you can't even point your finger at. Who's going to say, well, oh, guess what? There's no more parking in D.C. So even people that want to come from their university or their new home in PG County, where are they going to park?

[00:34:10] So I'm even at the point now where I'm thinking, okay, maybe we should do a petition. You know, have people come in the stores sign a petition. Okay, Howard University, if you are serious about this corridor, make some of that land you've got sitting there that's vacant and unused available to people who have to come in the city to use George Avenue.

[00:34:33] So these are, these are the unspoken parts, you know, of gentrification that affect the population and the businesses. So that's, again, another way that we can work hand in hand with the community. Because they know we, they know we know that what's happening to each other. So sticking together and really always locking arms is a very good strategy. You bet. Preach. Okay. Yeah. Let me.

[00:35:03] So my question then is, and this is for whoever on the panel, but I want to kind of let me start with Baba Coates. Because did you guys know that he actually had a bookstore first? He also, not first, but he had a bookstore as well? Okay. Awesome. Well, sorry. But that's good. But that's where I want people to understand.

[00:35:25] My question is about, and Char talks about this in the book, is the various eras of bookstore owners, right? And what drove it? You have these highs and you have these lows. And in each era, there are different things that kind of pushed it along, right? So I, of course, recall the 90s. I worked at Carribo bookstore. Visited San Kofa all the time.

[00:35:54] Got a chance to go up to AWB and walk through there. Love their warehouse, guys. It's incredible. I'm just a little bit of a book. I was introduced to the books that Black Classic Press was publishing. This was a huge era. And you guys were a part of it, Bob Coates. You were creating books for this era. And you guys are also part of this era as well.

[00:36:21] This huge groundswell of Black bookstore owners who are now stepping to the fore and communities across the country.

[00:36:30] I'm curious, what do you think are some of the things that you've either learned in each era or some of the similarities across that era, across the eras, that has influenced the work that, you know, you're doing now as a publisher and as a bookstore owner? You know, I think, can you hear me?

[00:37:00] Is this good? Okay, look. So I think, because I always think about this. I think about periods and I think about bookselling. I think about Black publishing. This may not align perfectly with Char. But it's the way I view the history. I tend to think that there's this period of Black bookstores.

[00:37:23] There's this period of Black publishing that is really solidly connected with the community. And they're there really because the politics of the era demand them to be there. I think about people like Third World Press. Third World Press was founded because there were no real outlets at that time for Black folks.

[00:37:51] And they were trying to tell a collective story of the movement going forward. Well, that's quite similar to Frederick Douglass, who's telling this story. That's quite similar to J. Rogers. He had no outlet. He had no outlet. So he's trying to... J. Rogers didn't spend a lot of time telling his story. He was telling the story of people.

[00:38:14] So I'm making a line here because really up until the early or the late 80s, most of the stores, most of the publishers, Black publishers, were vehicles of telling the community story. And this is also reflective of most of the Black writing, even when you're dealing with novels.

[00:38:39] You have Urban Lit and things like that come along later where people are telling their stories. You have bookstores that come along later where these bookstores... The booksellers are not... This is not reflective on you guys, but I'm saying there are booksellers who saw selling books as commodity. They didn't see it really as a purposeful venture service to the community.

[00:39:09] That would have been late 90s, early 2000s. You still have a number of booksellers. You have booksellers who went into bookselling following the pandemic because they thought it was an opportunity to make money. They really saw it. They saw a lot of money being made. They saw it as... And that's why they went in. Those type of sellers, those types of writers are not the ones that I think of as enduring and lasting and classic.

[00:39:38] I really think there are those periods, but I think you would define them... It's almost like the writing before the early 2000s was more... It was like we're telling the story of the community. We're telling the story that progresses and moves our people forward. And then after that, you get this whole period of the I. You know, what I did and how I did this and how I did that.

[00:40:07] And this is not reflective on Terry MacBillan and the brother who... Oh, gosh. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E.

[00:40:58] E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. that there was an era, and still may be, for urban fiction, for example, where that became the only model, the only genre for black literature. And you saw Barnes & Nobles and Bordens, Borders, all of a sudden just have their black literature section was going to be,

[00:41:28] you know, about this big, and it was going to be all urban fiction. And that was making a lot of money. So, but the idea of bookstores and publishers who are committed to something larger than that is very important, and they all last. You know, during the Borders era, and at Barnes & Noble era, we, you know, we did catch hell. But where are they, and where are we? So you...

[00:41:57] I think that's reflected also of mahogany. You know, and I wanted to make that clear. I'm not saying booksellers who have that commitment no longer exist. Yes, they do. Yes. And you can tell it when you walk into the store. It's... They'll have an expanse of history that just excites even people like me, okay? They'll have that. They'll also have fiction. It's because there's nothing wrong with fiction. That's not my point.

[00:42:25] My point is that these folks went... I guess they went for the brass ring or something, and they thought they were booksellers. Most of them did not last. And they... You'll find people do that now. They come in and they're gone. You would know that because you work with so many of the new booksellers. Yeah. Yeah, and I was just thinking about that whole urban lit fiction time. I was at... My first jump into books was at Howard University. It was an independent bookstore back in the day. And I was their book buyer.

[00:42:55] And I remember being there and seeing all the urban lit books. And I had the opportunity to make decisions on what covers and what books were on the shelves. And I just remember looking at the shelves and, you know, no shade because a lot of writers, you know, did amazing things. But I just remember scantily clad covers. And I said, the students in the community, I don't know, as a buyer, I don't know if I want to even put that there. You know, you talk about censorship in books and that's a whole other thing. But there were decisions that we were making because it was so hot with the main publishers.

[00:43:25] But as a Black person in my community, was it so hot for me? I don't know. And so it was a lot of decisions that had to be made in these, I would say, fad. There were some fad moments that came and go. And that's in every industry. But I just remember some moral dilemmas that I had to make as I'm sitting there making buys and making displays of what that looked like and determining not somebody else get to choose what's popular to me and what's popular to our community. But I had the opportunity to choose and switch some of that because it was taking over a lot.

[00:43:53] But as Mahogany Books, too, we had to stand in that space and say, you know, even on our website, even now today, people come in looking for certain books and we're like, you can order it from us. But we don't even probably display them at our stores now. And I love that as entrepreneurs and someone committed to community, committed to the narrative that's out there, not trying to censor, you can order it. It may not be on my shelf, but you may be able to order it. And that's us making conscious decisions about what it means to be in this space. Everything is not about the money. It is such a deeper thing for us about how do we switch consciousness?

[00:44:23] How do we transform how people see themselves, how other people are looking at us and how we're seeing ourselves? And that comes through all those pages on the shelves. And so every day as an entrepreneur, we're making those decisions. And we're hearing other voices saying, oh, don't censor this. And we're like, well, we might censor some stuff, right? And I say censor in a way that we get to choose and be intentional about what people see and how we see ourselves. So, and I don't know if that's so different from the people, you know, the newer, there's a lot of new bookstores that are popping up now, but it was a lot of them that popped up

[00:44:52] and it was a fad and everybody's looking for these black owned bookstore lists and all this had happened. And I'm thinking that's cool. I think it's space for as many black bookstores as you were saying, Sherekeana, to come online. I think it's powerful to have many black bookstores, but also really examining the intention. And a lot of them have come and a lot of them have closed in the last five years since the pandemic started and to where they are now. As my husband mentioned, the Black Bookstore Coalition, myself and another bookstore started it in 2020.

[00:45:21] And at that time, it was so many books. So every time I looked up as a new bookstore hopping on the call and I can't tell you how many of those bookstores are gone. Are there others still coming? Yes, but a lot of them are gone. And I just always think about what was the intention? What was the idea? I mean, it is a business too. We can talk all day about community, but it's a business looking at the inventory and the sales and the profit and all those other things that help keep us in business as well. But it has been some changes in the different eras and how people really approach business, how they really approach bookselling,

[00:45:50] how they really approach community. And for us, it's how do we kind of navigate all of those and still remain true to ourselves, still remain true to business. I love business. I got a little business degree, so I love just excited to see how business, community, and culture all can cohabitate and still remain authentic to who we are and authentic to community. So I think that's what a space for Black bookstores can, you know, I love that the space that Black bookstores can stand in when it comes to that. And people get to choose. You know, I'm trying not to talk about other bookstores,

[00:46:19] but people get to choose how they show up in this space. I really want to share how Mahogany Books chose to show up in this space. And it was with community. It was with building other bookstores across the nation. And how do we all learn? How do we all grow? How do we all build? What I'm really clear about, that one bookstore can't be here. It takes an entire ecosystem of Black bookstores here feeding each other, feeding authors, learning and growing. For those people who live in Oklahoma, they need a Black bookstore, right? So everywhere. But it takes this entire group of people moving it forward.

[00:46:48] And I think that's what's important when you look at bookstores now and then and how it continues. I have a question. And I was going to add to that too, that because when you are a business or a bookstore, you get to choose your genres. So that's the fun part too. You can decide what you want to focus on. And the more the better. But I just have a question that I was thinking of as we've been talking.

[00:47:16] Because in your book, we see so many challenges to the idea of a business or an entity saying, yes, I'm going to make sure my community is educated. I'm going to make sure that even during an era where literacy for Black people is illegal in most of the country, I'm going to make sure that I have a business here that addresses literacy in my community.

[00:47:44] I'm going to, you know, despite the fact that people are coming to my door to arrest me, to try to put me back in slavery. This is from her book. I'm going to make sure that I have a place where Black people can read and have their materials, authors can be read, conversations around the world, on the country can be shared. So that made me think about now, as you were also saying.

[00:48:13] And, you know, you see the era that you live in in comparison to the eras that came before you. And you'd be like, wait a minute. They might not be knocking on my door trying to send me back into slavery, literally. Yeah. Wow. But there are certain things trying to break down your door. You know, there is ice. That's it. And that's not even a metaphor. These guys are really knocking on doors.

[00:48:38] These are these crazy other folks that have been infected by this moment's era's racism that can come into your place when you're having an event. But despite those threats, Ruggles still, you know, that brother that we're talking about still did his work. He was, in fact, inspired. That's why he did his work. So I'm thinking the two of you, for example,

[00:49:05] have decided that you want to create a Black Bookstore Coalition. And I'm wondering if that is going to, are you seeing that as something that can help us in the future sort of defray some of the threats that have happened to us in the past? Can I? Go ahead. So I want to start a comment. I want to answer because in part because I want to make sure I give Ramunda her flowers here.

[00:49:32] So, like, I've wanted to be a bookstore owner since, like, 1997, 98. Again, I was working at Karibu Bookstore and working with Yao and Simba helped demonstrate to me how, as a guy, I could take care of my family while also serve my community. And that was something that was very, very important to me. Now, I'm an introvert, right?

[00:50:02] I don't like being out a lot. You know, the fact that I'm here. Ramunda dragged me out this morning. This is a win, right? But I would go and do this work every day and, you know, pick my head up once in a while and say hi to people. Ramunda started running with me in this dreamless passion of mine.

[00:50:26] And again, as I said in the beginning, her love for people and ability to connect and build relationships. She identified early during the pandemic, a little bit before the pandemic or right when the pandemic started, the importance for training up entrepreneurs, for helping them get access to information

[00:50:50] that literally, like, her and I was having to dig for because it wasn't readily available in terms of, like, profit margin, like how to run a bookstore properly and last, like Karibu and Sankofa was doing. That was very important to me. But Ramunda decided that this is work that needed to be taught to other people.

[00:51:16] And it was so as I watched it from the outside, watching her do this month in, month out, working and training people, I appreciated the impact of that because the legacy part of it, right? Building businesses, not just bookstores, but Black folk building businesses that last decades, right?

[00:51:39] That can be a part of a community and can be an institution for 30, 40, 50 years and employ. I don't know how many people you've employed, how many people you've given space to. Like, that is an important thing. But we have to be able to build businesses properly so that it can sustain and last the test of time. And that's something that you have to be able to do with knowledge of how to run a bookstore or a business properly.

[00:52:08] And that's what, from outside looking in, that I saw with Ramunda and wanting to do that kind of work. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Oh, sorry. I thought you were going to answer something even before that. So I want to say, so that's what I saw in why it was done, right? So now you can say, you know. Thanks, husband. Right. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, see. I'm messing with them. But yeah.

[00:52:39] No, I just want to add to that. I wish I could be like, oh, it was all me, me, me. But there are so many Black bookstores that hop on these calls month after month about how do we grow, how do we learn. And what I've just experienced is that it's not about gatekeeping. Nobody wins if I hold all the knowledge. These authors don't win if only one bookstore is out here. That's always, that is always in the back of my mind. That when an author has a book and they want to get it out into the world, one little bookstore out in D.C. isn't going to do it. One little bookstore out in Oklahoma. But it's how do we all thrive?

[00:53:09] How do we all raise awareness and create spaces for authors no matter where they live? Some authors may not ever get to make it and step into the D.C. area because of financial reasons or whatever. But they have a book in North Carolina and a base in North Carolina. So for me, it was just how do I create community?

[00:53:25] And to your question, to your what you were saying too, Sharikiana, that the coalition, it now, I mean, there's stores now that are learning how to do inventory, learning how to build community, learning how to host events, learning how to connect with authors, learning how to stand up and be bold. Well, some, there's so many people on the call sometimes that are nervous about, I want to do this, but what are people going to say? And I'm like, when I think of the people that are in your book, the history, I mean, it is scary.

[00:53:52] And like you were saying too, Sharikiana, we have to be bold, but just being in a space where we're comfortable enough to say that and have to put this game face on in front of everybody else. And that's what the longevity of it looks like, building each other up so that when we go back into our spaces in our community, we feel stronger, we feel bolder, we feel confident and saying, no, I don't want this on my shelf. Or yes, I do want this on my shelf. And we're not in spaces like that a lot of times. We're not in those spaces. So that's what that coalition means to me, that everybody can thrive and everybody can rise and everybody can learn.

[00:54:21] But it can be so simple to go in my own little corner, focus on mahogany books all day because there's so much work to do in just that one space. But it's so much bigger than us, so much bigger than one or two stores. Yeah. I have a question, but I just wanted to go back to that urban lit convo.

[00:54:51] So I remember like, so that like urban lit was like very popular in, in the early 2000s. So I remember being 12 reading like the like coldest. We all read. I remember being 12 reading like the French or ever in the book. True to the game.

[00:55:19] I should not, I should not have been even. Okay. It was okay. But no, but no. So that was a time like where like those books were popular and they were not for my age group. But I was reading them. I was like, what happened? But no, but okay.

[00:55:48] So, so my next question is about a bookstore, not, not really represented here. Career bill. So, um, it was a bookstore chain, baby. Okay.

[00:56:18] It wasn't one store too. It was six stores across. Um, well, it, it was based in, um, Maryland, but like had like six, um, stores, uh, across, uh, the, the, um, the, um, the, um, the MV and, um, Karibu touched every one here.

[00:56:44] Uh, um, um, um, um, Derek and Ramunda work there. And, um, uh, Paul served as kind of, well, as kind of like, kind of like mentor and a guide for, uh, both Simbasana and, um, brother Yao who like ran it.

[00:57:12] And then I, I, it was like 2013 when a brother Yao came to like, kind of, um, uh, work with, with, with, with, with, with Sankofa. So, um, Karibu closed in 2008, but it has touched each person here.

[00:57:38] So I would just love, um, if, if y'all could kind of, um, share some of, um, share some of your like memories working there or like, or, um, or can like talk about the, the, um, in, in pact of the chain. Right. Yes.

[00:58:08] Uh, so. So, Karibu was an amazing phenomenon and anybody that talks to Yao is going to be like, yeah, wow. You know, he was so fired up with the possibility of making this work and, you know, stories about going to, um, outlets with a couple of trucks and just bringing stuff back for all of his stores and, you know, getting a good price and, uh, just controlling all the inventory. It was just an amazing story.

[00:58:38] If you ever get a chance to hear him talk about it. Um, and so, in fact, I'll tell you a funny story. When we were doing the bookstore, we knew we were trying our best, but we really wanted to make films. And then, you know, the staff. And so, Karibu was flying high. And so, we had the two of them come in once to the store and said, you know what? Would y'all like to work here? Would you like, you know, you're good at what you do.

[00:59:08] Maybe you could do it here. They're like, y'all are cool, but y'all not that cool. They were like, you know, young and happy and everything. And here are these two old people talking about, you know, Sankofa on George Avenue. I don't know what they, but it did not happen. And so, um, but in 2000, as again, you'll see in a book, um, in 2013, um, we had the pleasure of talking with Yowl and working through some things.

[00:59:37] And he saw our books, and as you do say, he was like, well, yeah, but you have to have invoices. It was just that simple. He was like, don't receive a book unless you have an invoice. We were very much like, uh, Ari, y'all okay over here? The numbers, you know, thank you so much.

[00:59:58] So those practical things, you know, we didn't have the, the, the business degree, um, but we had the, you know, interest. And so, uh, he did help us in that way and as a consultant. And, um, he still, and he had some very, very big ideas about how the black book world could function. Um, and I, I still hope that he tries to implement some of that in his lifetime.

[01:00:29] I'll just add really quickly. I met Brother Yowl. Actually, my husband, like you mentioned, worked at Karibu when he was in college. Um, and then I worked at Howard. And I remember walking down the street in Harlem, New York. Was it Harlem? The, it was the Harlem Book Festival. And I was walking down the street in my role at Howard, just trying to look at other vendors and other books. And I see, um, I want to say it was Simba. He was like, hey, aren't you married to, to Derek? I was like, yes. He said, what you doing out here? I said, I'm looking at books. I work in books.

[01:00:59] He said, you work in books? And so he said, well, what, you know, ask me what I did and all this. And that's why I'm working in books. I have a background in retail. He said, well, I think I want you to come to Karibu. I was like, wait, what? I had a, I have a job. I'm here on, on assignment from another bookstore. Um, but I came back and talked to them. Um, those six stores, um, it was just an honor to be there to work and do operations for those six stores and kind of learn, kind of cut my teeth. I started at Howard, but then went directly to Karibu. They plucked me from Howard and, uh, got to work there.

[01:01:26] But I learned so much from Yao, you know, the business aspect. I thought I knew business, but then working under Yao and Karibu, looking at numbers and understanding the inventory and when the book should come off the floor and when it should stay on. Like, even though we have this passion, there's still, you know, it's still business underneath all of this. And so I learned so much. I mean, rigor. I felt like I was going for an MBA working under him, but it was also a pleasure. But I only got that job because of him. I had a background, but they were like, uh, your husband used to work for me. And I was like, okay, but I got my own credentials.

[01:01:55] Um, but no, it was just fun. It was, um, I learned so much. I have so much respect. Um, Yao came to our wedding. His picture is in all of our bookstores. He's been a mentor and a friend to us for so many years. Even now, I was just texting him a couple of weeks ago, but, um, um, just a pivotal, um, pivotal piece of black bookstore, um, history and impact. You know, Jason Reynolds worked there. Uh, Reginald Betts. I think I was Reginald's manager. You know, it was just crazy. Dwayne.

[01:02:23] So it was just a lot of different people that have come out of a space, but that's what community looks like to me too, is all of us growing, all of us learning and writers going there to be, um, to maturate and learn their craft and process, um, as well. But Karibu meant a lot to me. So I remember getting the call from, from, um, Simba telling me they were going to close. And it was like a, um, they called me because we, we had been in, in conversation about expanding.

[01:02:52] Um, and they were on the cusp of expanding at the same time, but it was like one of the saddest. It was like, it was like someone in my family had died. Um, and having the conversation with him was very, very difficult. Um, but it was time. It was time. So the two went their way.

[01:03:14] The thing that I always remember about, um, Karibu is, and, and I knew the brothers from the time they started on the first cart, right? Okay. So when they, what was it? One 97. It's, it's one 97 where the mall, um, is where, where they had the store. It's at one nine. Yeah.

[01:03:45] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so when they got that, one of the things I used to take pride in whenever I went down there was the fact that they were the only, only black store in the whole joint. And they were dealing with knowledge. They were dealing with knowledge and they were representative of the types of bookseller that I was, that I started talking about earlier.

[01:04:11] The type that really is community based and there to be of service to the community. So they would dig deep for the books. They also sold urban lit, but the store had this foundation. The thing out of this that I remember and being so impressed in sitting with the staff, uh, doing one of their staff meeting

[01:04:35] was the fact that in this room, there may have been about 30 people. There may have been about 30 members of their staff that they would bring together. And I would come in, other publishers would come in and we would talk about our books and why those books were important. You see, white publishers employ people to do that work. They do it all the time. They're always in your store.

[01:05:02] But for Simba and Yau to reach out and bring black publishers into the store to talk about the books and explain to the staff, the strengths and the points of how to sell the book, that always stuck with me. To be in an environment that dealt with knowledge and to be the only store there meant that the community was supporting them,

[01:05:30] which goes right back to the earlier question. The community supported them. The community kept them alive. The community did not put their business out of business. It was a conflict between Yau and Simba. The community fully supported their efforts. And we should just remember that. So I mentioned a little bit about my history with Karibu Bookstore.

[01:05:54] The thing I guess I would want to share about my time there and what was imparted to me is, so for black bookstores, but I would say for black businesses overall, this is my hope. And this is what Karibu taught me is that every generation of entrepreneurs, of people side hustling, getting their grind on, making a way out of no way. We're always learning how to level up.

[01:06:24] We're always figuring out how to turn nothing into something without the degrees, without the formal education. And what Karibu did was they took something that, again, I've had seen all my life with community bookstores, and they leveled it up and add a, what you mentioned, rigor, right?

[01:06:52] They put into it infrastructure, a professionalism that could allow something to, a bookstore, a business, to scale to six stores, Baltimore, PG County, Virginia, have multiple employees create infrastructure for a livable wage for the managers. He was talking about this again in 1997, 98.

[01:07:22] I'm talking about Brother Yao. What they were showing, demonstrating, was how do we build a business that serves the community and trying to level up the people within that community, while also providing for their family and creating something that changes the paradigm for what we expect and anticipate as black consumers.

[01:07:52] Walking into a space and expecting professionalism, expecting merchandising, expecting all of these things that is, is, is, is, is become second nature to us. Offering a value that tells us you are worthy, right? That tells the consumer you are worthy of this level of professionalism because you deserve it, because you're working hard for your money.

[01:08:20] And what you should get out of that is something is we appreciate that, right? And that's what, uh, Karibu taught me specifically is that one, yes, I'm here to pay for my kids, college tuition, take care of my wife, but I'm also here to provide for the community.

[01:08:45] And also hopefully level up specifically for us, um, the idea of black bookstore ownership so that people that's coming after me can understand that there are ways to be innovative, to take something to the next level. There's a way to raise up an industry standard to the next level. So people that's coming after us can do it at a much higher level.

[01:09:11] And that's what drives us when we talk about the technology, when we think about AI and podcasts and streaming events and stuff like that. It's about, we can always stretch what we're doing in service of the people that's around us. And that was something that listening to Yao and Simba and watching how they went about their business very intentionally was highly impactful to me.

[01:09:37] I was a business student at Bowie State and I'd never seen that before working for the owners of a store that was very intentional about family, community, business. That was like it, for me, it changed. It leveled up my mindset. So I know we're getting ready to wrap.

[01:10:00] But I think I will, before we get up out of here, I think it would just be, there's no better way, I think, to end this conversation than having Char kind of tell us, what do you hope people get out of this book? Like as we all read it, what do you hope people get out of this book? What did you get out of it? Just, I think we would love to leave with that before we head into the next part.

[01:10:29] Yeah, so there are a bunch of things that I want people to take from this book. But one theme or like one theme from this book that I've thought about lately is the cohesion of the Black book.

[01:10:55] The Black book in the history, right? Troy Johnson, who runs the African-American Black Literature something, sorry. But he runs it, all right?

[01:11:19] And side note, his is the first directory of Black-owned, Black-owned, Black bookstores. Now, there are a bunch of those lists and everything out now, but his was the first. So I just want to say that.

[01:11:47] But anyway, Troy Johnson calls it the Black book ecosystem. And I think that is the perfect term for it.

[01:12:05] No matter what chapter you read, you can see that the Black publishers knew, loved, and helped the bookstores. And the Black bookstores, knew, loved, and helped the Black writers and so on, right?

[01:12:33] There is a sense of community and collaboration among the Black book ecosystem that you don't find in the general book world.

[01:12:59] And I think that that is why the businesses as a whole have managed to endure. Because they work together and they don't see each other as a competition.

[01:13:21] It's just more of how can I help this bookstore or help this writer. And even me, I started writing this book and I didn't know how the Black booksellers and publishers would take me, right?

[01:13:49] Like, they could have said, girl, we don't know you. Like, bye. But like, they really welcomed me and shared with me.

[01:14:12] And so I say all that to say, the Black book ecosystem is cohesive in a way that, like, that, like, benefits everybody. And I think that, like, I think that the people who read this book, I want everybody to take that from it.

[01:14:39] Because we live in a very, very individualistic country.

[01:15:01] And the history of Black-owned bookstores shows us the exact opposite of that. So. Awesome. That's fantastic. Yes. Do it. I'll put that. Do it. I'll put that. All right. So we want to say thank you all for coming out for this evening's panel featuring Black-owned by Ms. Shara Adams.

[01:15:32] Again, thank you. Please give a round of applause for Shrikyana Dorema, Ramunda Lark-Young, and Baba Pau Coates. Thank you guys for hanging out with us today. And, folks, we are going to have a book signing take place. This will be taking place on our fourth floor in our Mansard room. I almost did like a bra man moment. Fifth floor. Fourth floor. Fifth floor. Fourth floor Mansard room.

[01:15:59] So if you head out into the lobby and just take the elevators up to four, that way, Shara will be signing books. And you're welcome to hang out for a little bit and mingle. I think we've got a little bit of music going on up there. So let's continue to manifest and amplify the sense of community. Thank you all for joining us today. Thank you, Mahogany Books. Thank you to our panel. You are all fabulous.

[01:16:22] What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramunda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[01:16:50] We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.