Envisioning Possibilities: Imagination’s Role with Jay Ellis and Jason Reynolds

Welcome to the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, your gateway to the world of African American literature. We're proud to present a collection of podcasts dedicated to exploring the depth and richness of African American literature. Immerse yourself in podcasts like Black Books Matter, the podcast. Where we learn about the books and major life moments that influence today's top writers. Or tune in to Real Ballers Read, where brothers Jan and Miles invite amazing people to talk about the meaningful books in their lives. So, whether you're a literature enthusiast, an advocate for social justice, or simply curious about the untold stories that shape our world, subscribe to the Mahogany Books Podcast Network on your favorite platform and let African American literature ignite your passion. how y'all feeling?

How y'all feeling? I'm so excited. Okay. Let me come on this side. I'm so excited. Um, but yes, as Ryan mentioned, my name is Ramonda Young and this is

Derrick, Derrick Young,

Derrick Young, Ramunda Young, and we've owned Mahogany Books, created it from the ground up, um, 17 years ago. So can we give it up for black business? August is actually officially black business month. So I'm excited to do that, um, to mention that, that today, but 17 years in business. And 22 years married. So that's a whole nother thing. Yes. But really quickly, thank you all again for coming out today. Thank you to the DC public library. They're not just our venue, but they are our partners when we come and have these great events and they say, yes, and I don't take that for granted. So let's give it up for the DC public library, please. Yes. Um, also the DC public library foundation, where I'm just, I'm very proud to be a board member, but they have been so supportive event after an event after event, just generous with their time and their donations. So let's give it up for the DC Public Library Foundation. Yes. And just really quickly, if you take photos today, please make sure your flash is off, but also tag us. Don't be stingy with the tags. Tag Jason Reynolds, tag Jay Ellison, tag Mahogany Books, and please use the hashtag, hashtag Black Books Matter. So let's get into it. I know y'all didn't come to hear Armanda. That's all right. But first, I'd love to introduce our phenomenal moderator for the evening. Our moderator is none other than Jason Reynolds. Yes. Yes. Some Jason fans in the building. Jason is the number one New York Times best selling author of more than 20 books for children and young adults. He is best known for his novels, All American Boys, co written with his dear friend Brendan Kelly, The Track Series, and Long Way Down, which received Newbery, and the Coretta Scott King and Coretta Scott King honors. Among Jason's, I thought that was me, Among Jason's many accolades, he was named the National Ambassador for Young People's Literature by the Library of Congress for 2020 22, and he has also received, um, uh, uh, worked as faculty at Lesley University for the Writing for Young People MFA program. He lives right here in D. C. Did y'all know that? Okay. Y'all like, yeah. Okay. Just make sure. Um, so yes, please help me welcome up our friend. Somebody very dear to us, Mr. Jason Reynolds. Yes. Next up I am thrilled to welcome our author for today. The other author I should say, born in Sumter South South Carolina to a military family. Jay Ellis spent his childhood inventing new personas for every town he landed in. Too many to count. After college, he realized the NBA wasn't good enough for him. And he didn't want to crush the other players dreams as he dominated the league. So he decided to take his one man show to Hollywood, where he got his start on BET's The Game. I used to love The Game. Now an accomplished actor, philanthropist, and entrepreneur, Jay is best known for his role as Lawrence on HBO's Insecure. Yes, I know y'all here. Mm hmm. Um, for which he won an NAACP image award and he appeared alongside Tom Cruise and the Oscar nominated film Top Gun. Please help me welcome, put your hands together for Jay Ellis. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But before we get started, I'm going to take the liberty to do a couple of things. One, does anybody, I need to see a show of hands. Does anybody know what today is? Does anybody know? Aside from this dope event that's happening, does anybody know what it is? Shout it out with your chest. What is it? So to be in this space today, to be a black bookstore, to, I mean, there's so many emotions that I have when it comes to James Baldwin, what he has done, not just for us as bookstore owners, but us as black people, for us as readers. And so what I would love to do, we're going to sing happy birthday and we're going to sing it. The Stevie Wonder way, but first I would love to turn the mic over to my amazing husband Um, for him to share some words of how he feels about James Baldwin as well. So yes

What's going on guys? Um, so not gonna be long but we do what we do for Um, a very powerful reason. Uh, all you guys in here are book readers You're you're writers you're book readers and the thing that we get from books is a connection You Um, something that helps us feel, uh, connected not just to ourselves, but the people around us. Books, writers, the best of the writers, gives us a window and to other cultures, other people, and also gives a, a mirror for us to reflect on ourselves. And when I think of James Baldwin, all the books I read of him, uh, my favorite being, begin again, written by Eddie Glaude. about his time post MLK's assassination. What it makes me think of is one, um, the urgency, the importance of loving yourself as a black person, of being in this country and being authentic about yourself and being able to write that in a way to allow other people to feel the same way. It also gave America permission to be more empathetic with us as well. And I think that's, what's important about today as we celebrate James Baldwin's birthday. And we have these incredible authors here right now who are continuing in that work, allowing us the chance to number one, be able to connect with ourselves on a much more personal way to understand what our weaknesses are, what our strengths are, and how we can continue to become better people, but also allow other people to connect with us. To see into our culture and to love us authentically as people. And that's what, uh, the best of what Baldwin did. For me, at least. Everyone else has their own story. And I encourage you guys on today and into the future for the rest of the year, read Baldwin, think on it, share with other people, because it's just that important, the work that a black writer does. Because again, today, we're now celebrating and remembering James Baldwin for all that he did. Thank you.

Go ahead, husband. Okay. Okay. That's my husband. That's my husband. So y'all know, don't they? But anyway, on the count of three, we won't do the long whole entire thing, but I want to make space. I want to hold space because this is, it's a powerful day and I don't want to tear up. I got three eyelashes left. Um, but I do want to make sure we make space on this day to celebrate the amazing James Ball. So on the count of three. Three. Three. One, two, three, happy birthday to ya, happy birthday to ya, happy birthday, happy birthday to ya, come on, happy birthday to ya, happy birthday, ya'll ready? Happy birthday, happy birthday, okay, that's it, that's it, let me stop, okay, it's starting to get less, less, less voices, I was like, that's enough, but please, please help me. Put your hands together for this amazing conversation with J and J, J Ellis and Jason Reynolds. Let's go.

So first of all, where y'all work at? Cause I'm from here and I know this is a working city. I'm like, man, this is only three o'clock in the afternoon. Ain't nobody finna be here, you know what I mean? But, uh, I'm, I'm glad y'all made it to celebrate, to celebrate, uh, J Ellis's, J Ellis's book. We don't, I want to make sure in the essence of time, I want to make sure that we kind of get to it because there's a lot of things that we, I want to get to. Um, Backstage you were talking about a lot of things that you will never know about. But the one thing that I was thinking about and that I was telling him was, you know, I, uh, I watched Insecure. We're not going to talk about it, by the way. Uh, y'all can ask whatever y'all want to ask on y'all time, but I'm going to make sure we honor this man in the book that he's made, right? Um, that he's written. But I was, I was telling myself when, when I got word that you had written this book and they were asking me if I wanted to be in conversation, if I wanted a copy of it, so forth and so on. I was thinking to myself, first I was like, cause I'm a jaded writer, right? So I'm like, uh, right? Celebrities, right? Actors. And then, and then I thought to myself, I was like, what if, look, it's, it's a lot of black people in the world and it's a lot of ways to be a black person, right? Like there is no sort of set way to be a black person. But that don't mean that every black person is my kind of black person, you know what I mean? Some of us in here know what I'm talking about. And so I, so I, so I was like, what if he ain't my kind of black person, right? But then I started reading the book and there's a part that I wanted to talk about right in the beginning in the introduction that, that, that basically let me know that he was my kind of black person. So there's a part in the very beginning where he gets to, uh, He's talking about, like, what was going on when you're born in the 80s and raised in the 90s, right? Anybody, 80s babies, who came up in the 90s, any of them folks? So you know, we have a lot of things to, we went through a lot, right? We went through a lot. But he's, and he's listing all these things, right? And then, he says, The real world, dial up internet, and then he says, hey Macarena, and then he puts, All and I thought to myself. That's not the words to that song. They say, they say, I, they don't say, all right, but he said, they said, all right, which let me know. He might kind of black person. You know what I mean? Cause if you ain't finna mess up the lyrics, you know what I mean? And not care. He printed that in the book, right? I'm like, you ain't researching. He's like, I bet you'd probably like, no, no, no. That's just, in my mind, it's all right, you know? So look, I have, I have questions about, about Mikey, about the book. I, I think this is the perfect day to talk about this book. You know, James Baldwin said, The world does not know it yet, but the interior life is the real life, and the imaginations and dreams of a person has a tangible effect on the world. Right? You have written a book about the imagination, and the dreams, the intangible parts of a person's psyche that had a tangible effect on your life. Um, and I, and I, I want to talk first. Um, does everybody know what the book is about? Can we skip that part? If you don't know, say so and we'll get you to, we'll get you to once the one liner. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. All right. You were how I see. She's embarrassed right now. All right. So can you, can you give, can you give your, your, your pitch right quick. So Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want you to, uh, to disappointed when y'all walk out of here. Uh, so, um, I was an only child growing up. I went to 12 schools in 13 years. I moved around a ton. My dad was in the Air Force. And like Jason said, I, I am an 80s baby who came of age in the 90s and I was very, I moved around a lot. And it was a very chaotic time. And I have family who was spread all across this country. And my parents were teenagers when I was born and they would send me in the summers cause they couldn't afford healthcare. They would send me to go be with my family. And all these things were happening around me, things I didn't know how to process, things I didn't understand, things that no kid should probably see or have to think about or have to process. And I had this imaginary friend who came to me, To help me through all of that and for me, he was like a big brother I say he was like Dwayne Wayne meets Fresh Prince in the book like and I think the Dwayne Wayne pieces because all of a Sudden I was watching this black dude in college who kind of looked like me with glasses and suspenders and I was like, oh shit I want to be him when I grow up and he came to me in a way that felt like a mentor It felt like a sereno. It felt like a confidant. It felt like a road dog and Helped me through simulate situations at times. So I wouldn't embarrass myself when I got to school or we just went on adventures together or help me stay out of trouble or even get into trouble. And then as we get older and life goes on, you lose that. And when you are a person of color, you tend to lose it earlier than our counterparts. And all of a sudden I was out here. I didn't have the luxury of imagination anymore. I'm now in this world and the shit is real. And the loss of innocence is, is there. And so now all of a sudden I'm trying to process that, and I'm, I'm making mistakes, and I'm bumping and falling and doing all the things that everybody does. But for me, when I started writing this book, and what this book to me is ultimately about, like, it's a love letter to the 90s, it's a love letter to the village that raised me, it's a love letter to the cities I raised hell in. But to me, this book is really a testament to imagination, and how your imagination gives you what you need when you need it. And then we get older and we lose that, and we gotta find a way to get back to that. It's, it's, yeah, absolutely. You can clap for that.

I, you know, I, I, I'll tell you, you know, another moment of honesty for me, you know, I, I, at first when I heard the premise of the book, I thought you were right. I thought you were using the imaginary friend as a device, as a literary device. Um, and so for those of you who think that, let me, let me sort of clear, let me clear the deck for you. He, he means this. And I, and I, and when I started to read the book and you were talking about this very real thing that was happening, uh, not to you, but with you, right, this very real person that was with you. Um, first there was some, uh, embarrassment for me, uh, in my reticence to the story and sort of being like, man, what? Even though I work with kids every day, right, and make this work every day. And I realized like, oh. Oh, this is the point though, right? Because, because, because I do know Mikey and I do know what it is to imagine a world beyond my own or imagine a person beyond myself or my family. My older brother had an imaginary girlfriend named Petunia. This is true. Uh, shout out to my brother. He'll never see this, but he had an imaginary girlfriend named Petunia that my father used to tease him about whenever he caught him humping the pillows. And then I thought, this is true. And, and I realized when I was reminiscing about that, I was like, looks like I probably had some imaginary girlfriends too. Right. And I was going through all of my, and I was going through it is true. Right. And I was going through like, it's a weird thing how we, how, how we adult, how we adultified ourselves. Yeah. Unnecessarily. Yes. And so my question to you in this moment is, is one, was it uncomfortable to write a story? Like, did, did you fear the judgment? of your colleagues, friends, fans, right? All these people. And two, can you talk a bit about Mikey and about sort of how Mikey came to you, which is a funny scene, but how Mikey came to you and the relationship that you had with this boy. Who was a part of you?

Yeah,

yeah. I mean, what was the first part of that real quick? So, so was there any, was there any embarrassment or insecurity

around this? There was a ton of insecurity around it because I've, I've, I've been able to, you know, uh, I've had a career as obviously an actor, right? And so people see me in one way and I'm actually pretty private. Like I'm not, I don't share everything. And some of that is some advice that I got along the way, and some of that is some things I had to learn along the way. Um, about protecting what's sacred to you, so that can re continually refill your cup. Because you constantly are given. And when I wrote this book, there were many times, uh, where I was like, what am I writing? Like, people are gonna look at this and think I'm absolutely crazy. They're gonna think I'm on something. They're gonna think I lost it. They're gonna think I'm gonna be out there with Ye. Like, they're gonna, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, they're gonna be like, Jay started Sunday service. We know what that mean. You know what I'm saying? And so, uh, I, we want him to come back though. I do send, send in love and prayers. We want him to come back. We want him to come back, send in love and prayers. But, but real talk, I did have this trepidation a, because I'm typically not that vulnerable in front of people, right? I've understood the roles that I've played and what people expect of me because of those roles. And there is a persona that I think we all wear, whether we know it or not. And you put that up, uh, to some degree to protect yourself, but also to some degree to, um, To, uh, kind of meet the expectations of what people may think of you when, when they meet you, right? Especially if you're a forward camera facing person. And so I was like, oh, this is, this is a horrible idea. There's multiple times where I wanted to back out of this book. Um, I think the thing that, like, kind of kept compelling me to write were the stories. Like, I, I would find myself in the middle of writing, and then it would just click to me, like, oh, this is why I do that, or I think that, or this is why Jordans are so important to me, or, like, you know what I mean? Like, just little things like that, that, that, I was like, I'm not the only black boy who experienced this. And even if I am the only black boy who experienced this, fine. My story still deserves to be told in some way. And that still compelled me to, to kind of keep writing it, even regardless of the, the fear of the trepidation. And then to like, your second part of the question, Mikey, uh, uh, my, we were in Tampa, Florida. My dad pulled up on a homie, uh, in a parking lot. He was like, hey, I got a TV. You trying to get this TV? And so the dude like pops open the trunk. He has a TV. My dad opens the box. And back in the day, TVs used to have like a booty on them. Y'all know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about. Or a humpback, whichever way you want to put it. You know what I mean? And so, my pops opens the box, he sees the big, you know, glass screen with the like, plastic casing around it. Caches the dude out, takes the box home. He gets home, he pulls, he goes to pull the, the, the box out. And just the glass comes out and the box is filled with bricks. So now him and my mom are in this very heated argument. Cause my dad is like, I'm about to go out there and find his mother. And she's like, you have a son. You can't leave. You're just going to go fight in the middle of the night. What's wrong? Like they sit in there arguing and I'm, I'm afraid of, of the, the, the, Not the intensity of the argument because that that's not how they got down. I'm more afraid of like the the Volume of the argument because that I was not used to on top of that we were in Tampa and there was a storm and so I My mind just went to this place where like my bedroom had become a swamp and there were like crocodiles and alligators Swimming around my bed, and I was too afraid to get out of my bed and run to my parents room So, in this like moment of fear, Mikey kind of pops over my shoulder and is like, Oh hell no, we ain't about to be no Crocs dinner. And then from that moment on, like, we were friends, like I didn't, You know, you were kids, so you can't process that he's not really there. I just had this experience with this imaginary thing and that was it. It wasn't until like, My parents had heard me talk about Mikey a few times and then I'd be like, Oh, well, you can't see him because he doesn't want you to see him. You know, I would make up the reasons why, but I still didn't fully understand that I had an imaginary friend. You know what I'm saying? I

often, I love the part in the book too, as you're sort of navigating your feelings. familial elements of this, right? Like your dad is way over Mikey, way over it, right? And because Mikey, cause you're getting into mischief is happening, right? Your story reminds me a lot. When I was reading it, all I kept thinking was, Oh, this dude is, is literally Max from where the wild things are. I'm like, this is, he's literally living. He's having a wild rumpus time, right? Like, he's, you know what I mean? And so, like, talk a bit about, sort of, just how long it took your parents to sort of be okay with the fact that their kid By the way, which, at the time, we didn't have as much language for mental illness. No.

No.

But had we had that language Yeah. Yeah. You may have been diagnosed as schizophrenic and medicated, which would have been terrible. And so can you talk a bit about how long it took your parents to come around, if they ever did? And also some of the research, because the part about the book that I really also really respected was, was Jay back, I backed it up by saying like, hey, there are studies and research that, that talk about young people and kids with imaginary friends, that it actually isn't an abnormality, and it isn't a mental illness, that it's a part of sort of maturation for a lot of young people. Um, can you talk a bit about that? Yeah, yeah, it took my parents a minute.

Cause you was wreaking havoc. Yeah, I was wreaking havoc, but also every time I would say like, oh no, Mikey's in my room, my parents would be like, where? Is he under the bed? Is he in the closet? Like, where is he? Is he, what does he look like? Is there, and they, I think, and no, and I say this in the book, and like, this is no joke when I say this. My mom told me this, because I had to, as I went through this process, I would talk to my mom, I'd talk to my dad, I'd talk to my grandmas, my cousins, my aunties, and I would ask them questions about what they remember of me and my relationship with Mikey, or me and any events or stories or things that happened. And my mom was like, the first time you said it, your dad My dad has this stick that he took the axe handle off that he keeps with him at all times. Like he keeps it, he keeps one in the house, he keeps one in the car. One of those men? Yeah. He calls it his, Be good stick. Right. Yeah, y'all know what I'm saying. Got it. Yeah. Okay, so he was like he gonna be good today So he's like walking through the house My mom was like he's walking through the house With this thing like up on his shoulder because he thinks there's actually somebody in the house the way you're talking about this person So obviously after like a day or so, whatever they figured out like I'm just imagining this thing And then my mom kind of leaned in they both kind of leaned in. I think my dad was like, hey, he's weird But he's weird, but, but whatever, man, he's all right. Yeah. Uh, but my mom kind of leaned in and I think my parents, they very early decided they only wanted to have one kid. Like that's all they both wanted. And they had me so young. I don't think they could have even been able to take on another child. And so I, and we moved around so much. I think my parents looked at it as an opportunity for me to, uh, to kind of, uh, keep myself busy, keep myself occupied. So they didn't have to entertain me all the time. You know what I mean? And then for the research part of the book, you know, I kind of start the book off and really started this whole process with the question of like, why do we have imaginary friends? Why do kids have imaginary friends? Why did I have an imaginary friend? And my hope is that by going through all these stories, I kind of answer that for you. If not, I think I try to tie it up very nicely at the end. Uh, but in it, I did a bunch of research. And like, I read it, there were a bunch of papers I read, and articles, and books, and all kinds of stuff. And what you ultimately find out is there are quite a few behavioral therapists out there who see children very often with imaginary friends. And one of the things that actually comes out of it is about 68 percent of all kids have imaginary friends. Thanks. Which is a much larger number than what I, as an adult, thought when I went to go write this book, and I was like, Oh, people are gonna think I'm crazy. The thing is, we lose it along the way, and the larger kind of definition of an imaginary friend is like, if you put a personality into something, if you make your pillow a person, or if your dog can talk, or if your G. I. Joe can blow something up, you are using your imagination to create that person. a human in this thing or, or you're personifying this thing. And so it's part of the larger definition. So that's something that we've all done along the way. And I thought in order, as I was writing this, I thought for myself in order to understand it, but then also even I was trying to think like forward and think of the reader and be like, Oh, how do I get people to understand? That this is actually, A, wildly normal, B, you most likely had it yourself and you don't even know because you haven't talked about it, thought about it, asked somebody who knew, and then C, kind of demystify and destigmatize what it is when we think, like, the kid is crazy or weird or, or schizophrenic or whatever it may be because they have an imaginary friend.

You know, I was outside walking right here on the block. I don't know what's going on in the city this weekend. There's a con, right? There's a con this weekend. And so people are cosplaying outside the library. And I just walked by and I was like, Oh, this lady has a sword. That's awesome, right? And, and I was thinking about this book because it's, Because I, I would imagine it not being the same, but there is something about an act of imagination when it comes to cosplay, or kids who wear Spider Man uniforms to school, or like, are walking around doing this all day long, right? It's like, you know what I mean? It's like, uh, it's an interesting sort of thing that, that can happen, and that does happen. With one's imagination. My question is, when I, when I personally think of imaginary friends or even people who cosplay, um, I, I often think that either, either there is dissociation happening or association happening, right? Either I am trying to, to disconnect from myself or I am trying to better connect to myself in a more whole way. So for you, uh, with Mikey, Where do you think you fall, or both perhaps, right, depending upon context, where do you think you fall or you fell when, when Mikey was in your life in that way?

Yeah. It's mad interesting, bro. Um, I didn't know about the dissociating part of this and there's this book out there called the boy who was raised as a dog. Um, And I am losing my man's name right now. Uh, he's a professor down in Texas. He wrote this amazing book about how he gets called in to often help unlock trauma that people may have back here compartmentalized somewhere and how that trauma at times may actually be able to answer clues to things that have happened. Um, Like the children of, um, King David and David Koresh, for example. Not King David, what was it called? The Davidians, Branch Davidians. For example, the Branch Davidians, before the whole thing went up, they released like eight or ten kids or something like that. He was called in to talk to the kids and ultimately he realized that like the FBI wanted these answers to see what was happening in there, to see how dangerous Branch Davidian and this guy actually was. That's it. But he couldn't get the answers out of them because he couldn't just have a normal conversation with them because they had been dissociating for years, for years. So what he realized is he had to put them back in that same environment. All of a sudden, they could wear what they want, they could eat breakfast when they want, and they could choose what they want. That was nothing. They didn't know how to react to that. So they had to put them back in the same environment to be able to get the answers out of those kids that they were looking for. Well, what I ultimately kind of like learned from that read was about the dissociating. I didn't, I never thought about that, which is then why now I can say, like, your, your childhood imagination gives you what you need. If you were in a traumatic situation, Yes, sometimes it will, it will probably become a core memory in some ways, but yes, I'm sure it will stick with you, but your, your brain will also your young brain will try to make sense of it as best as it possibly can to protect you and to protect your innocence and your childhood and all of those things. It's survival. It's your brain's version of survival. I think I was associating.

Yeah,

I think I wanted to be this dude. I think I ultimately I wanted to be Dwayne Wayne. I wanted to be, uh, Dwayne Wayne. Excuse me. I wanted to be the Fresh Prince. I think I was, um, Trying, it's interesting because I think at different times I was trying to do different things, but I think I was trying to untap, um, who I was. as we all are at that age or as you get a little bit older. But I think I was also trying to tap who I was because I never felt like I had roots because I constantly moved around so much. And with each move, I felt like, Oh, well now I'm in a new, I'm in Texas. So should I talk like I got, you know what I'm saying? Or, or I'm in, I'm in California. So I'm gonna hit these Rs real quick. You know what I'm saying? Like all of a sudden, like I felt like I was grasping at like, who am I supposed to be in this place? And I think Mikey was kind of that grounding force for me.

Yeah, the anchor of it all. Another thing I love about the book, and for those of y'all who are 38 and up The book is also sort of a cabinet of pop nostalgia. Right. So all the things that you miss is in here. Like he is a lot of things, not all. So you've missed a few. I want to talk to you about,

but, but,

but there's, but there's a lot of just amazing, like pop nostalgia from that time. From, I mean, I guess all in, I mean, from old wrestling stuff to, you know, what it was like being a kid watching the Bill Clinton trials. Um, and, and lots of other things. My question about, about that time and about sort of pop culture during the 80s and 90s, um, do you think that because of the way that the culture was set up at that time that it makes, that it made more space for imagination? Now I only, I, I ask this because in today's time young people do not know what it is to be bored. Right. It doesn't exist anymore, right? Boredom is not a thing that exists in the world anymore because we always have a distracting mechanism in our hands. We have a machine that is the boredom killer. Sort of, right? But, but it's not just killing boredom. One could argue that it kills imagination because boredom is oftentimes what sparks imagination. If you don't have time to be bored, your brain never has a moment to do the thing that it, that, that you normally wouldn't allow it to do. And so my question is thinking about that time. And thinking about the, the, the, there's a lot of terrible things that were happening during this time. HIV and AIDS, the crack epidemic, we can go on and on and on, right? Reaganomics, right? I mean, there's a lot, I mean, right here in D. C., for those of y'all who are from here, it's a wild time, right? Um, but on the positive side, there was a lot of fantasy, right? You mentioned the Jordan 5s. And for those of us who were there for that, This is when the ad campaigns changed and they started to talk about those sneakers as if they could actually make you fly. Right? Do you think growing up in this time, so my question is, do you think growing up in this time fosters an imagination or fosters a Mikey, right? Into a space. And, and, and is that still from what you know, is that still, do you think it's still the same?

It's interesting, bro. I, I, um, I've read a couple of quotes on boredom. And how like boredom actually leads to some of the most wonderful works in the world that we've ultimately seen because you have to let your mind be able to, you have to be bored to let your mind wonder to write, to, to imagine, to be able to, to create at times, not all the time, but a lot of times I think about my childhood and we're, we're at that gap. Since you said 38, we're in a crazy time, and I don't know that people will ever be able to, the closest thing I could maybe think to people being able, being able, excuse me, to understand it is like my great grandma who was born before cars, and then died like in the 90s, and was like pushing a Buick until she died in her 80s, you know what I'm saying? Like, that to me is the closest thing I could think of. I could think of. I think, uh, when I was born, there were a handful of television stations. And when I say a handful, like there might've been like 12. There might've been 10. There might've been eight.

You know

what I'm saying?

Four, five, seven, nine. You. You. Yeah.

And so And I remember going like my, my maternal grandma, her TV never even worked. Like it was a, one of the big giant floor joints and she was divorced. So she couldn't move it at the house. So it just sat there. It was like, bro, it was a side table. She had pictures all on the top, you know what I'm saying? She had draped, she had draped a little, uh, uh, she had draped a doily over it or something. So, so. And then I would go sit in Stockton, California or go sit in Youngstown, Ohio or Sacramento or whatever and be bored all summer long, bro. Like we would be told to go outside and play, but there were also neighborhoods that I couldn't like in Youngstown and in Stockton, like I have family that lived in neighborhoods where I could not go outside and play because the block was out for a completely different reason. So boredom was just there. And I do think to your point, that's where a lot of it comes from because my imagination was just able to run wild with reckless abandon. Now I got a four and a half year old daughter who now all of a sudden her favorite thing is to say, I'm bored. We don't know where it came from. It just started like in the last six to eight weeks. She's four and a half. It just started in the last six to eight weeks. We have no idea where it came from. And I go, cool. Like, what do you want me to do about that? So find something to do. Can I watch? No, you can't. Go find something to do. Like, you're not going to sit in front of a TV. But then we're at that age where, like, all of a sudden now, we have this boom of 24 hour news networks and this big cable boom. And so now you have this imagination that you had, that I had anyway as a kid, and a lot of us, I think, had as kids. But then you get thrown into, like, now you have all these things that are constantly being thrown at you. Yeah. nonstop from the internet to, you know, you know, to Jason's point, like in, in, in the beginning of the book, I run all these things and it's everything from like, Prince Charles and Princess Diana getting married, a billion people watched that. So like, 83 million people watched who shot J. R. Ewing. Does anybody know? I don't know who did it. You know what I'm saying? Like, but it was a crazy thing. It like took over the world. It was such a crazy thing. But then you got the Bulls, you have Team USA, you have, like there's just so much stuff. How about the Dominique Dawes? Dominique Dawes.

And Simone

Biles. Yeah. Uh, you got NAFTA. You have the Cuban Adjustment Act. You got like, there's just so many things that were happening and now it was all being televised. And now as a kid, you're just consuming all of that. And ain't nobody taught you how to process all of that. And you shouldn't be sitting in front of it, watching it all anyway. And so I think that is like Mikey came in because of the boredom. And then now all of a sudden, as I got a little bit older and I am watching a lot of TV, Mikey's still there. And now I'm soaking up some of what I'm watching and that's playing in my mind in its own way as well.

It's like they don't, their kids don't, they don't, unfortunately don't know what a power pellet is. Let me explain it to you. So a power pellet is any piece of candy, uh, that you could, when we were kids, and I'm, and this is a lot of, my whole neighborhood would do this, like you'll go outside and play, and it's like, well, do what? It's like, well, just go out there, right? Like, just go outside. First of all, we were raising this time, you raised yourself. That's the other thing that we've all learned, is that our parents did not do much raising. It's like, you got to go outside, And you don't, and don't come back until it's dark, right? Until it's almost dark. But you better not go off this block either. But don't leave the block. You better not go off this block either. You need to be in voice range. If I, if I scream your name, you need to get back to the, you need to get back to the door. But I think about it all the time, how we would just, me and my brothers, we would all just go outside and just, Try to make and make up stories around like power pellets. It could be peanuts, whatever was small that we could eat. And we'd be like, if I, if I eat this, you know what's going to happen, right? I mean, that's my power pellet. And then I'm going to be this, I'm going to be this, right. And it's like, it's like, I'm going to be stronger. I'm going to be faster. I'm going to get on my bike. I'm going to be faster than you on a bike. I'm going to, it's going to be like, you know what I mean? Like, and I, and I, I, it makes me sad that kids today and not all of them, because there are some parents who are just old school and like, nah, you're going to believe in magic. Right. Cause I think that's what it is. It's like, I think kids don't believe in magic anymore. I, I, I miss, like when you were, when I looked at all the pop culture references, and I want to ask you, what's one, what's a pop culture reference that you didn't put in the book, that you want to spot? Because I was reading it, and I was like, how you talking about imagination, and he don't mention this one. I know I got that kind of smoke for him. I know it's not real smoke, but it's, you know, it's like brother smoke, you know,

imagination. I missed it. What did I miss? I mean, I miss, I mean, I will say this, that list was cut down a little bit. That list was trimmed a little bit and that list almost didn't make it, which is really, which is really interesting. My editor and I went back and forth about this and after she got a couple of reads internally on it. A couple of them came back and said that like they think that I should cut the list and I was like not a list frames to me. I got to set you in place in time. And if I don't set you in place in time, if you're not familiar with it by reading this list, You can still see how chaotic a lot of these things were, that they were happening back to back to back to back to back on each other, same month, same years, whatever. Um, and ultimately I was just like, it's gotta be in there. But, but I think, I don't know, I'm trying to think of what I missed. I don't know.

Man, first of all, do you really, is The Rock really your favorite wrestler? I just, I'm curious.

Alright.

Hold on, hold on. Cause that part was wild. Hold on, The Rock? That part was a little wild to me. Are you about to say Hulk Hogan, bro? Nah, but from our generation, I'm 40, I know how old you are. Right, we in the same range. You really Sting? No, that's a good answer though. Boom. That, he's the best. Stone Cold? He's the best. And, and, and Ric Flair. He's the best, he's the best. Ric Flair is the best entertainer. The best entertainer, the worst wrestler. Worst wrestler, best entertainer, period. And my favorite to watch was The Undertaker, but if I should've put The Undertaker, I should've put The Undertaker there. Come on man, Stone Cold, Steve Austin with the big bomb, he like Bruh. Come on man. Stone Cold

is a good one. Come on. Stone Cold is a good one. The

Rock, The Rock is at the end of our generation. He's at the end of that. He's at the end of that. He's not even ours for real, he like my

little brothers. But also, also, I was hoping that I wish the Undertaker was in there. I will say that because I loved the Undertaker bro with Paul Bearer, Paul

Bearer, singing all the notes. And also I was like, yo, I don't know how you don't talk about Moonwalker. Michael Jackson turned into a Lamborghini and a panther.

Can I tell you, can I tell you, can I tell you, you about to blow it. I'm going to tell you three things that were actually were repeated in that list multiple times that I took out. I'd actually repeated, um, crack cocaine. Yeah. Multiple times throughout that list. Yeah. So people can have an understanding of how hard it actually hit our communities and how present it was, however present it was. The second thing that was in that list, there were multiple Michael Jackson references. I have Michael Jackson. I have Michael Jackson in a hyperbaric chamber. I have Michael Jackson dark skinned. I have Michael Jackson with a pet monkey and I have Michael Jackson, light skin. So I have multiple of them in there. Because we went through, but also again in 10 years we saw a very different Michael. So like, oh, and that's culture. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So like that was crazy.

It was, it was very strange, but our imaginations allowed us to, our imaginations were like, it's fine. Mike is Mike. It's fine. Right? Like it's all good. But speaking, but speaking of Mike, and speaking of sort of, speaking of Mike and Mikey, for that matter, there's a part in the book where you talk about sort of, where you're, you're speaking as your today self, and you're talking about like, well, like, what exactly are imaginary friends? And you start to sort of parse out how they function, why they function the way they do, so forth and so on. There's a um, And, and you talk about like celebrities and how like, you know, it's, it's, it's no different than, than, than alter egos, perhaps, right? We could argue that it's similar to alter egos. As the, as the child gets older, does the imaginary friend then become an alter ego? Was Sasha Fierce somebody that Beyonce knew 30 years ago, right? Like, maybe. Maybe, right? And, and, and asking those questions. There's an interview I read, uh, 15 years ago, Lady Gaga and Rolling Stone. And she talked about how she's very private, she keeps everything separate, and so forth and so on. She said she learned to do this from Michael Jackson. And she said that when Michael Jackson got his hair burned in a Pepsi commercial, she said, when he falls through the bleachers, for those of you who are not old enough for this, just, you, you, you get Googles, she falls, he, he falls through the bleachers, And as the mad, the mad scramble happens, he puts one hand in the air, but the hand he puts in the air is the hand with the glove, right? So that people know that Michael Jackson, the, the, the entertainer, this, this avatar is okay. Michael Jackson, the man is okay. is on fire, right? But Michael Jackson, the avatar is okay, right? And so my question is, as you as you look back on Mikey and you and I'm trying my best not to ruin some of the stories. I really wanted to ask you to tell some stories, but I actually think it's better for people to experience it. There are some really It's a, it's, this is a fire book about, you'll learn a lot about him, and it'll make you, I don't know, all y'all love him, it'll make you love him more. Uh, ha ha ha, once you, once you really get to know, like, some of the things he's been through, and also the kind of kid that he was, which actually is, was really endearing and interesting. Um, so I don't want to spoil that for you, but what I will say is, Mikey was there through, sort of, pep talks through love, Pep talks through violence and, and gang stuff that y'all gotta read about. Uh, Pep talks through, uh, uh, the, the moving back and forth and all of that kind of stuff. Pep talks through, I mean, he wasn't there as much as you got to high school, but like thinking about who you were in that moment. But he was there sort of in, in, in all these different iterations of your young life. But let's say, this is like a Drop Dead Fred moment. Do you remember this?

Of

course it is. I was surprised you ain't mentioned that in the book. So let's say this is a drop dead Fred moment and Mikey walks through the door and sits here. What advice does Mikey get? Like what does Mikey help you do in this moment? And I'm asking you to dissociate. So I'm asking you to dissociate. Yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting, bro. I, um, man. That's interesting. So interesting. My first thought is he'd be like, damn, why are these people in front of us? Are you famous? What's happening? Like, what did you do? Or he'd be like, yeah, they, um, I, uh, I don't know. That's such a good question, bro. I think he would tell me to remember to slow down I think he would tell me to remember to be present. I think, like, I move so fast sometimes that, like, I don't take care of myself. You know what I'm saying? And not only that, but I don't enjoy all of the moment. And I think that's a very human thing. I think we all do that. But I think Mikey would be like, hey man, you gotta slow down. And, and, and check, actually see where you are. And don't mess it up. No, don't fuck it up. Well, you know, don't mess it up. Excuse me. But you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I think like, I feel like that would be like one of the first things he would say is like, yeah, you did the work. Now slow down and enjoy it. Also I think another thing he'd be like, you wrote the book. It's not yours anymore. Let it go.

It's not yours. It's definitely not yours anymore. Would you, I often wonder, do you think he would take credit for your career?

Yeah.

Yeah. Based on his personality in the book. You're welcome. So then, so then explain what, how do you think he, and we're going to take some questions in a second. Was that right, Ramunda? Okay. We're going to, I got this question and I might ask one more short question and we'll take some Q and A from you all. Um, but, but do you think How do you think that your relationship with Mikey impacted who you became? By the way, the, the impetus of you even getting into all the tabloid part is, it's brilliant because we were all kids looking at that in the grocery store and like, but, but how do you think Mikey and having a Mikey, um, contributed to you becoming J. L. S. F. Today, an actor and a person that a lot of people have a lot of respect and love for. And you play these roles and you're doing your thing. Thank you,

bro. Um, I talk about this in the book a little bit, but because I moved around so much, every school I would move to, I would adopt a whole new persona at that school. Like if I didn't like How the last persona played out at the previous school. Well, nobody knew him at the new school, so I could do whatever I wanted. The new school, nothing was coming with me. There ain't no Facebook. Ain't no, ain't no black planet. You know what I'm saying? Ain't no my space. You know what I'm saying? So I get to start all over and I constantly found myself essentially creating characters, essentially acting, essentially improv ing. Uh, but I didn't know that at the time. It made it. You know, there was a stretch where it very much felt like the only way we could get out of our circumstance was to play sports or sing, you know, right? There was a, there was a time where we were kind of told or shown that the only way that we could get out of our circumstance was those things. And I being a boy of that time and hyper consumerism like gets pumped into overdrive, I fall in love with basketball. And I think like, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go play basketball. And so, you know, So, that's kind of where my high school years took me, which then ultimately got me a college scholarship. And then when I was in college, all I could think about is how jealous I was of the theater kids. And like, I actually wanted to be over there. And I used a bunch of my electives to take classes around the theater program because I could never commit to a production because I was hooping. And so, I get done with school and I'm like, all right, well now what? I wanted to move to New York to be in theater. Alright, well now what? Dude, you just want to be on TV, bro. So just, like, you want to tell stories. You want to be an actor. Like, that's what you want to do. So, like, go to the place to do that. And I honestly don't know, I think writing this book really helped me understand that, like, oh, that is what I was wanting to do and pretending to do and playing at when I was a kid. I just didn't really know what it was. That's it. And it was really this thing that was inside me the whole time. I just had to go on a journey to get back to it. And fortunately I was able to get back to it and find it and then make a living in a career as an actor. So I think there's a profound effect of Mikey in my life for how I got here today.

Let's open it up. I asked my last question later on. Let's open it up.

Yeah, so let's give it up. Let's give it up. Let's give it up. Yes. Yes. Yes So what I want to give a couple of just quick Instructions because we want to make sure you get your book signed get a quick photo all that kind of good stuff So we'll open up my husband's on this side with microphone. I'm gonna do questions on this I will do about four questions two over there and two over here, honey. You want to start on your side? Okay, so come on down come on down or if we need to come to you if there's a there's a concern I'll come up to you, but

Hi, good afternoon. Thank you so much. Um, I have a quick question, just a quick comment. Like, I'm African and I can't, can't even imagine like telling my African parents that I had like an imaginary friend. They'd be like, blood of Jesus, you do not have an imaginary friend. Um, I think the closest I had was like watching Mary Poppins and like trying to jump into my mother's oil paintings. Like that's, that's it. But just, you know, kind of linked to my comment. If a parent has a child and, you know, they're. Talking about an imaginary friend, how would you recommend they, you know, discuss that or, like, approach that in a way, like, we have all this language now and all these concerns. What would you say is, like, the best way for them to talk to their child about this?

Yeah, this is, this is actually really fun, because I'm in this world right now. Uh, thank you for your question. Um, My parents did pray for me. I just want you. There was anointing oils. There's anointing oils right here. I just want to be very clear. There's a lot of praying. You don't say it. I want to be real oils. But, uh, um, I'm kind of in this space right now cause my daughter has, friends, but then she's at that age where kids in her school have imaginary friends and parents are always like, Oh my God, my kid has an imaginary friend. Is he going to be weird? Does she going to be weird? Like what's happening? And I always pull them to the side and I say like, let your kid be a kid. Like let their imagination run wild. Cause the minute you take that away from them, what do you might as well take all of it away? You know what I'm saying? If that's the case, then you might as well just pull all the wool away because you're asking them to be older than what they are. And yes, There are times where like some of our children may be a little bit behind and, and we're, we're trying to push them a little bit closer. But for the most part, we're always trying to push our kids. Like, man, I can't wait till she's not wearing diapers no more. Whoo! Like, man, I can't wait. And it's like, they're a kid. Like, they're supposed to go through some of those steps. And so I think we have to remember that and, uh, encourage that and let them have that. Because once it gets real, as we all know, It ain't no going back. So let them have it because it'll only serve them later in life. And then I think the last piece of that real quick, sorry, is just, um, uh, making sure that we are talking to our kids about their imaginary friends in a way that, um, doesn't let our kids use their imaginations to sometimes do things that may not be safe for them. Right? I think we do have to make sure that we're like also being like, okay, well, Billy tell you to go run in the street. Don't listen to Billy. Okay. Like whatever that is, like I think we have to make sure that we are talking to our kids about safety still, even with these imaginary friends, because like I was doing dumb stuff with my imaginary friend that could have gone sideways very fast.

Question on this hand. We're doing questions, comments, TED talks. Not this

time. Good question. Hi Jason. Hi Jay. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Thank you.

Um, You spoke so much about creativity and imagination and I was wondering if you could kind of break down how, um, the creative experiences and differs from acting versus the act of writing and expressing yourself on the page versus on stage or on film.

Yeah, uh, it was a weird, weird experience. Uh, uh, wildly being vulnerable as a performer Chill. Uh, but it's what I do every day. In the same way that someone could stand up in front of a group of people and speak if they were a professor. They're like, that's what I do every day, right? And I think, um, I have also had the luxury of having really great writing on some of the things I've been able to do. And I've also When I haven't had great writing, I can hide behind that and be like, well, I ain't write it. Uh, my performance is good, but I ain't write it. So if you don't like the story, that ain't on me. This, for, for, this was the first, this is the first time where it's like, it is me. It's all me. There's nothing to hide behind, but me. Uh, and so I think there was a, there, that was a very sobering thing at times because I was like, Oh, this is, I have to put my all into this. Yeah. Nope. Not going to say that, but there are some folks, there are some folks, there are some folks who write books and they don't spend a lot of time in front of the computer. It is true though.

That's true.

It's true. And I couldn't imagine that. I couldn't imagine that. I understand why. I understand how busy life can be. I understand how, um, how afraid you can get doing it. But I, when I realized that like, Oh, I don't get to hide behind anybody. It had to be me. Because then at least if it didn't work out, I could say it's on me. I can't blame it on nobody else. And when you go and read it, I can't be like, well, he did it. You know what I mean? I wrote it. So it's on me. And that was another thing that like really woke me up. It made me like fully focused.

Hi. Oh, you got it. I'm sorry. I'm like, hi Jason and Jay. Thank you so much. My name's Elsie. And I just have a quick question. Um, you said 68% Children have an imaginary friend can do you know what year it is has the data increased throughout the year? Do you think social media plays a role in imaginary friends aren't decreasing? Is there a support some kind of curious? I am excited to read the book tonight. It's my bedtime story But I do want to know like with Like it's a 68 percent currently as it is this year 2024 or was that during your time when you were growing up? Is that your percentage and then Is there a difference in data now that we see social media? Cause there wasn't social media at the time that you were growing up.

Yeah. So the, the studies that I use in the book or articles, uh, or other books that I cite range from like 1986 to like 2022, there's a, there's about five or six of them in there and they all have a different, timestamp, obviously, and they were done at different times. So there's a bit of a range of data in there. Uh, one of the things very specifically to the 68%, which you will read tonight when you go to bed, uh, because that's in the first couple of pages, but, uh, it tends to be between like four or five years old and 10, 11 years old is when most kids have their imaginary friend. Um, It doesn't obviously go into worldwide. It doesn't go into like different continents or different cultures. It's obviously a more general statement, but about five to 10, five to 11. Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. Last question.

Hey, what's going on? J Jason. Um, so I've been doing a lot of research about speculative imagination and how I'm in stories like Afrofuturism and everything, our imagination, imagination. Kind of creates these worlds, um, that can be a bit better than the world that we're in. Um, you talked a lot about how as children, we have our imagination, we get older, we kind of lose that imagination, but it's very clear you still have yours. So, um, if you and Mikey had an opportunity to use your imagination to solve a problem in today's world to make it a bit better, what might that be?

Oh man. Well, I mean, we are in a dumpster fire right now, so I guess we would just try to put the lid on the dumpster so we can put the flames out because we in it. We in the eye of it. Um, First of all, thank you for your question. Uh, and I lost my imagination along the way, by the way. I think like, and I think it happens to all of us. I think I found it because I came into acting and I got to play in a different way, but then the business of entertainment also kind of takes that out of you. And you get a little bit of jaded and you just show up and you do it a job and then you got to go fill your cup again and find how you're inspired. And so I do think it's a rollercoaster. I don't think it's all or nothing. Um, I would say, you know, in, in terms of a problem, man, I, I, I don't know, man. I, I, I think my first thought would be education. And when I say that, I think people forget how wildly important, not, not necessarily the same people in this room, um, but I think people forget how wildly important those years are and how they will ultimately, not, ultimately, Not that you will not change along the way, but they will set up so much of the person that you are going to become and what you believe and how you move and who you associate with in terms of, uh, race or religion or whatever it may be. And I think there is this, um, openness or curiosity or wonder that I would want myself and Mikey to hopefully be able to tackle and open up both in the adults, Who teach children and then also making sure that those children have it because that's that that's who's gonna be taking care of us Down the line, you know I mean when we're sitting at the house and they're running the world and and I think we're in that place where we have to Make sure we're constantly investing and introducing and making sure they're reading And also making sure that we're using our emotional intelligence In a way that allows them to be the fullest person. They can be awesome.

Awesome.

Do I get to ask my last question?

Yes. Come on brother. Jason, you can ask your last question. Yes.

My last question, which I've asked 1000 people whenever I do these events. Um, if you can go back to your 10 year old self, what would you think 10 year old J for

still believing Still believing. Cause when you kill hope, you know what I mean? I do. When you kill belief, when you kill imagination, then what? Then what? You kill the spirit. Then you kill the spirit. You know what I mean? Then what? Um, and so I think it's that man. I think I, I joke with people all the time when they're like about me being an actor and I go, look, I was just stupid enough to believe I could do it. Yeah. Like, We have to be able to believe in something, something bigger than us, a different world, a different situation, a different job, a different life circumstance, whatever it may be, we have to be able to believe in that. And if, if not, then what are we doing here? And so I, I think like there are some things that by 10 years old, there's some things that didn't make the book that I don't talk about. I didn't want to write a book about trauma necessarily, not that there's anything wrong with that. That's just not the story that I wanted to write about imagination. And. Enjoy and creativity and play, but I think there are some things that I saw and a lot of us see very young in life that could kill that. And the people around you because of the very serious survival situation that they are put in could kill that inadvertently and advertently depending on who it is. And then you kind of have, you're just here. So yeah,

the best of life is for the unreasonable. Ladies and gentlemen, Please give it up for Jay Ellis.

Yes. Yes. Give it up for Jason Reynolds to

give it up for Jason, please.

Give it up for Mahogany books

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