Actor and debut author Jay Ellis joins award-winning author Jason Reynolds for an engaging discussion about his new memoir, Did Everyone Have an Imaginary Friend or Just Me?: Essays. In this heartfelt and humorous reflection, Jay shares stories of his childhood and his imaginary friend, Mikey, exploring how imagination shaped his life. The conversation delves into the power of childhood creativity, the significance of literature and education, and the influence of pop culture in sparking innovation. The episode also honors the profound impact of James Baldwin on African American writers, offering a thoughtful tribute to his legacy. With audience Q&A woven throughout, this episode provides rich insights into the ways personal experiences and societal forces intersect in literature.
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how y'all feeling?
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Ramunda Young: How y'all feeling?
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I'm so excited.
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Okay.
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Let me come on this side.
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I'm so excited.
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Um, but yes, as Ryan mentioned, my
name is Ramonda Young and this is
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Derrick Young: Derrick, Derrick Young,
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Ramunda Young: Derrick Young,
Ramunda Young, and we've owned
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Mahogany Books, created it from
the ground up, um, 17 years ago.
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So can we give it up for black business?
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August is actually officially
black business month.
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So I'm excited to do that, um,
to mention that, that today,
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but 17 years in business.
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And 22 years married.
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So that's a whole nother thing.
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Yes.
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But really quickly, thank you
all again for coming out today.
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Thank you to the DC public library.
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They're not just our venue, but they
are our partners when we come and have
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these great events and they say, yes,
and I don't take that for granted.
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So let's give it up for the
DC public library, please.
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Yes.
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Um, also the DC public library
foundation, where I'm just, I'm very
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proud to be a board member, but they
have been so supportive event after
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an event after event, just generous
with their time and their donations.
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So let's give it up for the
DC Public Library Foundation.
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Yes.
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And just really quickly, if you
take photos today, please make sure
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your flash is off, but also tag us.
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Don't be stingy with the tags.
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Tag Jason Reynolds, tag Jay Ellison,
tag Mahogany Books, and please use the
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hashtag, hashtag Black Books Matter.
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So let's get into it.
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I know y'all didn't come to hear Armanda.
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That's all right.
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But first, I'd love to introduce our
phenomenal moderator for the evening.
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Our moderator is none
other than Jason Reynolds.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Some Jason fans in the building.
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Jason is the number one New York Times
best selling author of more than 20
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books for children and young adults.
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He is best known for his novels, All
American Boys, co written with his
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dear friend Brendan Kelly, The Track
Series, and Long Way Down, which
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received Newbery, and the Coretta Scott
King and Coretta Scott King honors.
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Among Jason's, I thought that was me,
Among Jason's many accolades, he was
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named the National Ambassador for Young
People's Literature by the Library
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of Congress for 2020 22, and he has
also received, um, uh, uh, worked as
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faculty at Lesley University for the
Writing for Young People MFA program.
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He lives right here in D.
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C.
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Did y'all know that?
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Okay.
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Y'all like, yeah.
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Okay.
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Just make sure.
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Um, so yes, please help
me welcome up our friend.
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Somebody very dear to us, Mr.
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Jason Reynolds.
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Yes.
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Next up I am thrilled to
welcome our author for today.
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The other author I should say,
born in Sumter South South
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Carolina to a military family.
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Jay Ellis spent his childhood inventing
new personas for every town he landed in.
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Too many to count.
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After college, he realized the
NBA wasn't good enough for him.
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And he didn't want to crush the other
players dreams as he dominated the league.
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So he decided to take his one
man show to Hollywood, where he
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got his start on BET's The Game.
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I used to love The Game.
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Now an accomplished actor, philanthropist,
and entrepreneur, Jay is best known for
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his role as Lawrence on HBO's Insecure.
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Yes, I know y'all here.
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Mm hmm.
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Um, for which he won an NAACP image award
and he appeared alongside Tom Cruise
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and the Oscar nominated film Top Gun.
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Please help me welcome, put your
hands together for Jay Ellis.
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Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
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But before we get started, I'm going to
take the liberty to do a couple of things.
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One, does anybody, I need
to see a show of hands.
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Does anybody know what today is?
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Does anybody know?
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Aside from this dope event that's
happening, does anybody know what it is?
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Shout it out with your chest.
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What is it?
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So to be in this space today, to be a
black bookstore, to, I mean, there's so
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many emotions that I have when it comes
to James Baldwin, what he has done, not
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just for us as bookstore owners, but
us as black people, for us as readers.
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And so what I would love to do,
we're going to sing happy birthday
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and we're going to sing it.
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The Stevie Wonder way, but first I would
love to turn the mic over to my amazing
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husband Um, for him to share some words of
how he feels about James Baldwin as well.
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So yes
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Derrick Young: What's going on guys?
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Um, so not gonna be long but we do what
we do for Um, a very powerful reason.
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Uh, all you guys in here are book readers
You're you're writers you're book readers
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and the thing that we get from books
is a connection You Um, something that
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helps us feel, uh, connected not just
to ourselves, but the people around us.
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Books, writers, the best of the writers,
gives us a window and to other cultures,
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other people, and also gives a, a
mirror for us to reflect on ourselves.
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And when I think of James Baldwin,
all the books I read of him,
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uh, my favorite being, begin
again, written by Eddie Glaude.
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about his time post MLK's assassination.
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What it makes me think of is one, um, the
urgency, the importance of loving yourself
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as a black person, of being in this
country and being authentic about yourself
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and being able to write that in a way to
allow other people to feel the same way.
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It also gave America permission to
be more empathetic with us as well.
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And I think that's, what's
important about today as we
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celebrate James Baldwin's birthday.
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And we have these incredible authors
here right now who are continuing in
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that work, allowing us the chance to
number one, be able to connect with
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ourselves on a much more personal way
to understand what our weaknesses are,
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what our strengths are, and how we can
continue to become better people, but also
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allow other people to connect with us.
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To see into our culture and to
love us authentically as people.
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And that's what, uh, the
best of what Baldwin did.
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For me, at least.
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Everyone else has their own story.
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And I encourage you guys on today and into
the future for the rest of the year, read
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Baldwin, think on it, share with other
people, because it's just that important,
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the work that a black writer does.
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Because again, today, we're now
celebrating and remembering James
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Baldwin for all that he did.
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Thank you.
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Ramunda Young: Go ahead, husband.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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That's my husband.
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That's my husband.
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So y'all know, don't they?
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But anyway, on the count of three,
we won't do the long whole entire
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thing, but I want to make space.
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I want to hold space because
this is, it's a powerful day
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and I don't want to tear up.
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I got three eyelashes left.
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Um, but I do want to make sure
we make space on this day to
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celebrate the amazing James Ball.
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So on the count of three.
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Three.
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Three.
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One, two, three, happy birthday
to ya, happy birthday to ya,
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happy birthday, happy birthday
to ya, come on, happy birthday to
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ya, happy birthday, ya'll ready?
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Happy birthday, happy birthday, okay,
that's it, that's it, let me stop,
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okay, it's starting to get less,
less, less voices, I was like, that's
00:08:05
enough, but please, please help me.
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Put your hands together for this
amazing conversation with J and
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J, J Ellis and Jason Reynolds.
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Let's go.
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Jason Reynolds: So first of
all, where y'all work at?
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Cause
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I'm from here and I know
this is a working city.
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I'm like, man, this is only
three o'clock in the afternoon.
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Ain't nobody finna be
here, you know what I mean?
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But, uh, I'm, I'm glad y'all made
it to celebrate, to celebrate,
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uh, J Ellis's, J Ellis's book.
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We don't, I want to make sure in the
essence of time, I want to make sure that
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we kind of get to it because there's a
lot of things that we, I want to get to.
00:08:46
Um, Backstage you were talking about a lot
of things that you will never know about.
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But the one thing that I was thinking
about and that I was telling him was,
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you know, I, uh, I watched Insecure.
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We're not going to talk
about it, by the way.
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Uh, y'all can ask whatever y'all
want to ask on y'all time, but I'm
00:09:02
going to make sure we honor this man
in the book that he's made, right?
00:09:06
Um, that he's written.
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But I was, I was telling myself when,
when I got word that you had written
00:09:10
this book and they were asking me if
I wanted to be in conversation, if I
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wanted a copy of it, so forth and so on.
00:09:16
I was thinking to myself, first I was
like, cause I'm a jaded writer, right?
00:09:21
So I'm like, uh, right?
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Celebrities, right?
00:09:26
Actors.
00:09:27
And then, and then I thought to myself, I
was like, what if, look, it's, it's a lot
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of black people in the world and it's a
lot of ways to be a black person, right?
00:09:37
Like there is no sort of set
way to be a black person.
00:09:40
But that don't mean that every
black person is my kind of black
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person, you know what I mean?
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Some of us in here know
what I'm talking about.
00:09:46
And so I, so I, so I was like, what if
he ain't my kind of black person, right?
00:09:50
But then I started reading the book and
there's a part that I wanted to talk about
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right in the beginning in the introduction
that, that, that basically let me know
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that he was my kind of black person.
00:10:02
So there's a part in the very beginning
where he gets to, uh, He's talking about,
00:10:08
like, what was going on when you're born
in the 80s and raised in the 90s, right?
00:10:13
Anybody, 80s babies, who came up
in the 90s, any of them folks?
00:10:17
So you know, we have a lot of things
to, we went through a lot, right?
00:10:22
We went through a lot.
00:10:23
But he's, and he's listing
all these things, right?
00:10:26
And then, he says, The real world,
dial up internet, and then he says,
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hey Macarena, and then he puts, All
00:10:40
and I thought to myself.
00:10:42
That's not the words to that song.
00:10:45
They say, they say, I, they don't
say, all right, but he said, they
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said, all right, which let me know.
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He might kind of black person.
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You know what I mean?
00:10:57
Cause if you ain't finna mess up
the lyrics, you know what I mean?
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And not care.
00:11:01
He printed that in the book, right?
00:11:03
I'm like, you ain't researching.
00:11:04
He's like, I bet you'd
probably like, no, no, no.
00:11:06
That's just, in my mind,
it's all right, you know?
00:11:09
So look, I have, I have questions
about, about Mikey, about the book.
00:11:13
I, I think this is the perfect
day to talk about this book.
00:11:15
You know, James Baldwin said, The
world does not know it yet, but the
00:11:18
interior life is the real life, and
the imaginations and dreams of a person
00:11:21
has a tangible effect on the world.
00:11:25
Right?
00:11:26
You have written a book about the
imagination, and the dreams, the
00:11:32
intangible parts of a person's psyche
that had a tangible effect on your life.
00:11:38
Um, and I, and I, I want to talk first.
00:11:41
Um, does everybody know
what the book is about?
00:11:43
Can we skip that part?
00:11:44
If you don't know, say so and
we'll get you to, we'll get
00:11:47
you to once the one liner.
00:11:49
I appreciate that.
00:11:50
Thank you very much.
00:11:51
All right.
00:11:51
You were how I see.
00:11:52
She's embarrassed right now.
00:11:53
All right.
00:11:57
So can you, can you give, can you give
your, your, your pitch right quick.
00:12:00
So Yeah,
00:12:02
Jay Ellis: yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't
want you to, uh, to disappointed
00:12:05
when y'all walk out of here.
00:12:06
Uh, so, um, I was an
only child growing up.
00:12:11
I went to 12 schools in 13 years.
00:12:12
I moved around a ton.
00:12:13
My dad was in the Air Force.
00:12:15
And like Jason said, I, I am an 80s
baby who came of age in the 90s and
00:12:19
I was very, I moved around a lot.
00:12:22
And it was a very chaotic time.
00:12:25
And I have family who was
spread all across this country.
00:12:27
And my parents were teenagers when I was
born and they would send me in the summers
00:12:31
cause they couldn't afford healthcare.
00:12:32
They would send me to
go be with my family.
00:12:34
And all these things were happening
around me, things I didn't know how to
00:12:37
process, things I didn't understand,
things that no kid should probably see or
00:12:41
have to think about or have to process.
00:12:44
And I had this imaginary friend who came
to me, To help me through all of that
00:12:49
and for me, he was like a big brother I
say he was like Dwayne Wayne meets Fresh
00:12:52
Prince in the book like and I think the
Dwayne Wayne pieces because all of a
00:12:55
Sudden I was watching this black dude
in college who kind of looked like me
00:12:58
with glasses and suspenders and I was
like, oh shit I want to be him when I
00:13:00
grow up and he came to me in a way that
felt like a mentor It felt like a sereno.
00:13:07
It felt like a confidant.
00:13:09
It felt like a road dog and Helped me
through simulate situations at times.
00:13:14
So I wouldn't embarrass myself when
I got to school or we just went on
00:13:18
adventures together or help me stay out
of trouble or even get into trouble.
00:13:22
And then as we get older and
life goes on, you lose that.
00:13:25
And when you are a person of
color, you tend to lose it
00:13:28
earlier than our counterparts.
00:13:30
And all of a sudden I was out here.
00:13:32
I didn't have the luxury
of imagination anymore.
00:13:34
I'm now in this world
and the shit is real.
00:13:37
And the loss of innocence is, is there.
00:13:40
And so now all of a sudden I'm trying
to process that, and I'm, I'm making
00:13:43
mistakes, and I'm bumping and falling and
doing all the things that everybody does.
00:13:47
But for me, when I started writing
this book, and what this book to me
00:13:50
is ultimately about, like, it's a love
letter to the 90s, it's a love letter to
00:13:53
the village that raised me, it's a love
letter to the cities I raised hell in.
00:13:57
But to me, this book is really a testament
to imagination, and how your imagination
00:14:00
gives you what you need when you need it.
00:14:03
And then we get older and we
lose that, and we gotta find
00:14:05
a way to get back to that.
00:14:07
It's, it's, yeah, absolutely.
00:14:08
You can clap for that.
00:14:12
Jason Reynolds: I, you know, I, I,
I'll tell you, you know, another moment
00:14:14
of honesty for me, you know, I, I,
at first when I heard the premise of
00:14:19
the book, I thought you were right.
00:14:20
I thought you were using the imaginary
friend as a device, as a literary device.
00:14:25
Um, and so for those of you who
think that, let me, let me sort of
00:14:28
clear, let me clear the deck for you.
00:14:30
He, he means this.
00:14:33
And I, and I, and when I started to read
the book and you were talking about this
00:14:36
very real thing that was happening, uh,
not to you, but with you, right, this
00:14:41
very real person that was with you.
00:14:43
Um, first there was some, uh,
embarrassment for me, uh, in
00:14:48
my reticence to the story and
sort of being like, man, what?
00:14:54
Even though I work with kids every day,
right, and make this work every day.
00:14:58
And I realized like, oh.
00:15:00
Oh, this is the point though, right?
00:15:02
Because, because, because I do know
Mikey and I do know what it is to
00:15:08
imagine a world beyond my own or imagine
a person beyond myself or my family.
00:15:13
My older brother had an imaginary
girlfriend named Petunia.
00:15:17
This is true.
00:15:17
Uh, shout out to my brother.
00:15:19
He'll never see this, but he had an
imaginary girlfriend named Petunia that
00:15:23
my father used to tease him about whenever
he caught him humping the pillows.
00:15:27
And then I thought, this is true.
00:15:29
And, and I realized when I was
reminiscing about that, I was
00:15:31
like, looks like I probably had
some imaginary girlfriends too.
00:15:33
Right.
00:15:34
. And I was going through all of my,
and I was going through it is true.
00:15:37
Right.
00:15:37
And I was going through like, it's
a weird thing how we, how, how we
00:15:41
adult, how we adultified ourselves.
00:15:44
Yeah.
00:15:44
Unnecessarily.
00:15:45
Yes.
00:15:45
And so my question to you in
this moment is, is one, was it
00:15:48
uncomfortable to write a story?
00:15:50
Like, did, did you fear the judgment?
00:15:53
of your colleagues, friends, fans, right?
00:15:57
All these people.
00:15:58
And two, can you talk a bit about
Mikey and about sort of how Mikey
00:16:02
came to you, which is a funny scene,
but how Mikey came to you and the
00:16:06
relationship that you had with this boy.
00:16:11
Who was a part of you?
00:16:13
Jay Ellis: Yeah,
00:16:13
Jason Reynolds: yeah.
00:16:13
I mean,
00:16:16
what was the first part
of that real quick?
00:16:17
So, so was there any, was there
any embarrassment or insecurity
00:16:20
Jay Ellis: around this?
00:16:21
There was a ton of insecurity around
it because I've, I've, I've been
00:16:23
able to, you know, uh, I've had a
career as obviously an actor, right?
00:16:28
And so people see me in one way
and I'm actually pretty private.
00:16:30
Like I'm not, I don't share everything.
00:16:34
And some of that is some advice that I
got along the way, and some of that is
00:16:37
some things I had to learn along the way.
00:16:39
Um, about protecting what's
sacred to you, so that can re
00:16:42
continually refill your cup.
00:16:44
Because you constantly are given.
00:16:47
And when I wrote this book,
there were many times, uh, where
00:16:50
I was like, what am I writing?
00:16:52
Like, people are gonna look at this
and think I'm absolutely crazy.
00:16:54
They're gonna think I'm on something.
00:16:55
They're gonna think I lost it.
00:16:57
They're gonna think I'm
gonna be out there with Ye.
00:16:58
Like, they're gonna, like,
you know what I'm saying?
00:17:01
Like, they're gonna be like,
Jay started Sunday service.
00:17:03
We know what that mean.
00:17:05
You know what I'm saying?
00:17:06
And so, uh, I, we want
him to come back though.
00:17:09
I do send, send in love and prayers.
00:17:11
We want him to come back.
00:17:11
We want him to come back,
send in love and prayers.
00:17:14
But, but real talk, I did have this
trepidation a, because I'm typically not
00:17:17
that vulnerable in front of people, right?
00:17:19
I've understood the roles that
I've played and what people expect
00:17:23
of me because of those roles.
00:17:25
And there is a persona that I think we
all wear, whether we know it or not.
00:17:28
And you put that up, uh, to some degree
to protect yourself, but also to some
00:17:32
degree to, um, To, uh, kind of meet the
expectations of what people may think
00:17:37
of you when, when they meet you, right?
00:17:39
Especially if you're a
forward camera facing person.
00:17:42
And so I was like, oh, this
is, this is a horrible idea.
00:17:43
There's multiple times where I
wanted to back out of this book.
00:17:46
Um, I think the thing that,
like, kind of kept compelling
00:17:55
me to write were the stories.
00:17:57
Like, I, I would find myself in the
middle of writing, and then it would
00:18:02
just click to me, like, oh, this is
why I do that, or I think that, or
00:18:06
this is why Jordans are so important
to me, or, like, you know what I mean?
00:18:10
Like, just little things like that,
that, that, I was like, I'm not the
00:18:14
only black boy who experienced this.
00:18:16
And even if I am the only black
boy who experienced this, fine.
00:18:20
My story still deserves
to be told in some way.
00:18:23
And that still compelled me to, to kind
of keep writing it, even regardless
00:18:27
of the, the fear of the trepidation.
00:18:30
And then to like, your second part
of the question, Mikey, uh, uh,
00:18:34
my, we were in Tampa, Florida.
00:18:37
My dad pulled up on a
homie, uh, in a parking lot.
00:18:41
He was like, hey, I got a TV.
00:18:42
You trying to get this TV?
00:18:44
And so the dude like pops open the trunk.
00:18:46
He has a TV.
00:18:47
My dad opens the box.
00:18:48
And back in the day, TVs used
to have like a booty on them.
00:18:53
Y'all know what I'm talking about.
00:18:54
You know what I'm talking about.
00:18:56
Or a humpback, whichever
way you want to put it.
00:19:00
You know what I mean?
00:19:02
And so, my pops opens the box, he sees
the big, you know, glass screen with
00:19:08
the like, plastic casing around it.
00:19:10
Caches the dude out, takes the box home.
00:19:11
He gets home, he pulls, he goes
to pull the, the, the box out.
00:19:15
And just the glass comes out and
the box is filled with bricks.
00:19:20
So now him and my mom are in
this very heated argument.
00:19:23
Cause my dad is like, I'm about to
go out there and find his mother.
00:19:25
And she's like, you have a son.
00:19:27
You can't leave.
00:19:28
You're just going to go fight
in the middle of the night.
00:19:31
What's wrong?
00:19:31
Like they sit in there arguing and I'm,
I'm afraid of, of the, the, the, Not
00:19:38
the intensity of the argument because
that that's not how they got down.
00:19:42
I'm more afraid of like the the Volume of
the argument because that I was not used
00:19:47
to on top of that we were in Tampa and
there was a storm and so I My mind just
00:19:55
went to this place where like my bedroom
had become a swamp and there were like
00:19:59
crocodiles and alligators Swimming around
my bed, and I was too afraid to get out
00:20:03
of my bed and run to my parents room So,
in this like moment of fear, Mikey kind of
00:20:11
pops over my shoulder and is like, Oh hell
no, we ain't about to be no Crocs dinner.
00:20:16
And then from that moment on, like,
we were friends, like I didn't, You
00:20:20
know, you were kids, so you can't
process that he's not really there.
00:20:22
I just had this experience with this
imaginary thing and that was it.
00:20:25
It wasn't until like, My parents had heard
me talk about Mikey a few times and then
00:20:30
I'd be like, Oh, well, you can't see him
because he doesn't want you to see him.
00:20:33
You know, I would make up the reasons
why, but I still didn't fully understand
00:20:37
that I had an imaginary friend.
00:20:38
You know what I'm saying?
00:20:40
I
00:20:40
Jason Reynolds: often, I love the
part in the book too, as you're
00:20:42
sort of navigating your feelings.
00:20:44
familial elements of this, right?
00:20:46
Like your dad is way over
Mikey, way over it, right?
00:20:49
And because Mikey, cause you're getting
into mischief is happening, right?
00:20:54
Your story reminds me a lot.
00:20:56
When I was reading it, all I kept thinking
was, Oh, this dude is, is literally
00:20:58
Max from where the wild things are.
00:21:00
I'm like, this is, he's literally living.
00:21:03
He's having a wild rumpus time, right?
00:21:05
Like, he's, you know what I mean?
00:21:07
And so, like, talk a bit about, sort of,
just how long it took your parents to sort
00:21:12
of be okay with the fact that their kid
By the way, which, at the time, we didn't
00:21:18
have as much language for mental illness.
00:21:20
No.
00:21:21
Jay Ellis: No.
00:21:22
Jason Reynolds: But had
we had that language Yeah.
00:21:25
Yeah.
00:21:26
You may have been diagnosed as
schizophrenic and medicated,
00:21:30
which would have been terrible.
00:21:31
And so can you talk a bit about
how long it took your parents to
00:21:34
come around, if they ever did?
00:21:35
And also some of the research, because
the part about the book that I really
00:21:38
also really respected was, was Jay back,
I backed it up by saying like, hey,
00:21:42
there are studies and research that,
that talk about young people and kids
00:21:46
with imaginary friends, that it actually
isn't an abnormality, and it isn't a
00:21:49
mental illness, that it's a part of sort
of maturation for a lot of young people.
00:21:53
Um, can you talk a bit about that?
00:21:55
Yeah, yeah, it took my parents a minute.
00:21:58
Jay Ellis: Cause you was wreaking havoc.
00:21:58
Yeah, I was wreaking havoc, but also every
time I would say like, oh no, Mikey's in
00:22:02
my room, my parents would be like, where?
00:22:04
Is he under the bed?
00:22:06
Is he in the closet?
00:22:07
Like, where is he?
00:22:08
Is he, what does he look like?
00:22:09
Is there, and they, I think, and no,
and I say this in the book, and like,
00:22:12
this is no joke when I say this.
00:22:14
My mom told me this, because I had to,
as I went through this process, I would
00:22:17
talk to my mom, I'd talk to my dad,
I'd talk to my grandmas, my cousins, my
00:22:20
aunties, and I would ask them questions
about what they remember of me and my
00:22:25
relationship with Mikey, or me and any
events or stories or things that happened.
00:22:30
And my mom was like, the first time
you said it, your dad My dad has this
00:22:35
stick that he took the axe handle off
that he keeps with him at all times.
00:22:39
Like he keeps it, he keeps one in
the house, he keeps one in the car.
00:22:41
One of those men?
00:22:42
Yeah.
00:22:44
He calls it his, Be good stick.
00:22:49
Right.
00:22:50
Yeah, y'all know what I'm saying.
00:22:50
Got it.
00:22:51
Yeah.
00:22:51
Okay, so he was like he gonna be good
today So he's like walking through
00:22:55
the house My mom was like he's walking
through the house With this thing like
00:22:58
up on his shoulder because he thinks
there's actually somebody in the house
00:23:01
the way you're talking about this person
So obviously after like a day or so,
00:23:05
whatever they figured out like I'm just
imagining this thing And then my mom kind
00:23:09
of leaned in they both kind of leaned in.
00:23:11
I think my dad was like, hey, he's
weird But he's weird, but, but
00:23:18
whatever, man, he's all right.
00:23:19
Yeah.
00:23:20
Uh, but my mom kind of leaned in and
I think my parents, they very early
00:23:24
decided they only wanted to have one kid.
00:23:26
Like that's all they both wanted.
00:23:27
And they had me so young.
00:23:29
I don't think they could have even
been able to take on another child.
00:23:33
And so I, and we moved around so much.
00:23:35
I think my parents looked at it as an
opportunity for me to, uh, to kind of, uh,
00:23:40
keep myself busy, keep myself occupied.
00:23:42
So they didn't have to
entertain me all the time.
00:23:44
You know what I mean?
00:23:46
And then for the research part of the
book, you know, I kind of start the
00:23:51
book off and really started this whole
process with the question of like,
00:23:54
why do we have imaginary friends?
00:23:56
Why do kids have imaginary friends?
00:23:58
Why did I have an imaginary friend?
00:24:00
And my hope is that by going
through all these stories, I
00:24:02
kind of answer that for you.
00:24:05
If not, I think I try to tie
it up very nicely at the end.
00:24:08
Uh, but in it, I did a bunch of research.
00:24:11
And like, I read it, there were a
bunch of papers I read, and articles,
00:24:14
and books, and all kinds of stuff.
00:24:16
And what you ultimately find out
is there are quite a few behavioral
00:24:20
therapists out there who see children
very often with imaginary friends.
00:24:25
And one of the things that actually
comes out of it is about 68 percent
00:24:30
of all kids have imaginary friends.
00:24:32
Thanks.
00:24:32
Which is a much larger number than what
I, as an adult, thought when I went
00:24:37
to go write this book, and I was like,
Oh, people are gonna think I'm crazy.
00:24:41
The thing is, we lose it along the
way, and the larger kind of definition
00:24:45
of an imaginary friend is like, if
you put a personality into something,
00:24:49
if you make your pillow a person, or
if your dog can talk, or if your G.
00:24:53
I.
00:24:53
Joe can blow something up, you are using
your imagination to create that person.
00:24:58
a human in this thing or, or
you're personifying this thing.
00:25:02
And so it's part of the larger definition.
00:25:04
So that's something that
we've all done along the way.
00:25:07
And I thought in order, as I was writing
this, I thought for myself in order
00:25:13
to understand it, but then also even
I was trying to think like forward
00:25:18
and think of the reader and be like,
Oh, how do I get people to understand?
00:25:23
That this is actually, A, wildly normal,
B, you most likely had it yourself and
00:25:28
you don't even know because you haven't
talked about it, thought about it, asked
00:25:30
somebody who knew, and then C, kind of
demystify and destigmatize what it is when
00:25:37
we think, like, the kid is crazy or weird
or, or schizophrenic or whatever it may
00:25:41
be because they have an imaginary friend.
00:25:44
Jason Reynolds: You know, I was outside
walking right here on the block.
00:25:47
I don't know what's going
on in the city this weekend.
00:25:49
There's a con, right?
00:25:51
There's a con this weekend.
00:25:52
And so people are cosplaying
outside the library.
00:25:54
And I just walked by and I was
like, Oh, this lady has a sword.
00:25:57
That's awesome, right?
00:25:58
And, and I was thinking about this
book because it's, Because I, I would
00:26:02
imagine it not being the same, but
there is something about an act of
00:26:05
imagination when it comes to cosplay,
or kids who wear Spider Man uniforms
00:26:09
to school, or like, are walking
around doing this all day long, right?
00:26:13
It's like, you know what I mean?
00:26:14
It's like, uh, it's an interesting
sort of thing that, that can
00:26:18
happen, and that does happen.
00:26:21
With one's imagination.
00:26:22
My question is, when I, when I personally
think of imaginary friends or even people
00:26:27
who cosplay, um, I, I often think that
either, either there is dissociation
00:26:36
happening or association happening, right?
00:26:40
Either I am trying to, to disconnect
from myself or I am trying to better
00:26:44
connect to myself in a more whole way.
00:26:48
So for you, uh, with Mikey, Where do
you think you fall, or both perhaps,
00:26:53
right, depending upon context, where
do you think you fall or you fell when,
00:26:57
when Mikey was in your life in that way?
00:26:59
Jay Ellis: Yeah.
00:26:59
It's mad interesting, bro.
00:27:00
Um, I didn't know about the
dissociating part of this and
00:27:03
there's this book out there called
the boy who was raised as a dog.
00:27:06
Um, And I am losing my
man's name right now.
00:27:10
Uh, he's a professor down in Texas.
00:27:13
He wrote this amazing book about how
he gets called in to often help unlock
00:27:18
trauma that people may have back here
compartmentalized somewhere and how that
00:27:23
trauma at times may actually be able to
answer clues to things that have happened.
00:27:29
Um, Like the children of, um, King
David and David Koresh, for example.
00:27:35
Not King David, what was it called?
00:27:36
The Davidians, Branch Davidians.
00:27:38
For example, the Branch Davidians,
before the whole thing went up,
00:27:42
they released like eight or ten
kids or something like that.
00:27:45
He was called in to talk to the kids
and ultimately he realized that like the
00:27:49
FBI wanted these answers to see what was
happening in there, to see how dangerous
00:27:53
Branch Davidian and this guy actually was.
00:27:56
That's it.
00:27:56
But he couldn't get the answers
out of them because he couldn't
00:27:58
just have a normal conversation
with them because they had been
00:28:00
dissociating for years, for years.
00:28:04
So what he realized is he had to put
them back in that same environment.
00:28:09
All of a sudden, they could wear
what they want, they could eat
00:28:10
breakfast when they want, and
they could choose what they want.
00:28:12
That was nothing.
00:28:13
They didn't know how to react to that.
00:28:15
So they had to put them back in
the same environment to be able
00:28:17
to get the answers out of those
kids that they were looking for.
00:28:20
Well, what I ultimately kind
of like learned from that read
00:28:22
was about the dissociating.
00:28:24
I didn't, I never thought about
that, which is then why now I can
00:28:26
say, like, your, your childhood
imagination gives you what you need.
00:28:30
If you were in a traumatic situation,
Yes, sometimes it will, it will probably
00:28:35
become a core memory in some ways, but
yes, I'm sure it will stick with you,
00:28:38
but your, your brain will also your
young brain will try to make sense of
00:28:42
it as best as it possibly can to protect
you and to protect your innocence and
00:28:45
your childhood and all of those things.
00:28:47
It's survival.
00:28:48
It's your brain's version of survival.
00:28:50
I think I was associating.
00:28:51
Yeah,
00:28:51
Jay Ellis: I think I
wanted to be this dude.
00:28:53
I think I ultimately I
wanted to be Dwayne Wayne.
00:28:55
I wanted to be, uh, Dwayne Wayne.
00:28:57
Excuse me.
00:28:57
I wanted to be the Fresh Prince.
00:28:58
I think I was, um, Trying, it's
interesting because I think at
00:29:03
different times I was trying to
do different things, but I think I
00:29:05
was trying to untap, um, who I was.
00:29:10
as we all are at that age or
as you get a little bit older.
00:29:14
But I think I was also trying to tap who I
was because I never felt like I had roots
00:29:17
because I constantly moved around so much.
00:29:20
And with each move, I felt like, Oh,
well now I'm in a new, I'm in Texas.
00:29:23
So should I talk like I got,
you know what I'm saying?
00:29:25
Or, or I'm in, I'm in California.
00:29:28
So I'm gonna hit these Rs real quick.
00:29:29
You know what I'm saying?
00:29:30
Like all of a sudden, like I felt
like I was grasping at like, who
00:29:33
am I supposed to be in this place?
00:29:35
And I think Mikey was kind of
that grounding force for me.
00:29:37
Jason Reynolds: Yeah,
the anchor of it all.
00:29:39
Another thing I love about the book,
and for those of y'all who are 38 and up
00:29:51
The book is also sort of a
cabinet of pop nostalgia.
00:29:56
Right.
00:29:56
So all the things that
you miss is in here.
00:29:59
Like he is a lot of things, not all.
00:30:01
So you've missed a few.
00:30:02
I want to talk to you about,
00:30:03
but, but,
00:30:04
Jason Reynolds: but there's, but
there's a lot of just amazing,
00:30:08
like pop nostalgia from that time.
00:30:11
From, I mean, I guess all in, I mean,
from old wrestling stuff to, you
00:30:17
know, what it was like being a kid
watching the Bill Clinton trials.
00:30:23
Um, and, and lots of other things.
00:30:26
My question about, about that time
and about sort of pop culture during
00:30:30
the 80s and 90s, um, do you think that
because of the way that the culture was
00:30:36
set up at that time that it makes, that
it made more space for imagination?
00:30:39
Now I only, I, I ask this because
in today's time young people do
00:30:45
not know what it is to be bored.
00:30:46
Right.
00:30:47
It doesn't exist anymore, right?
00:30:49
Boredom is not a thing that exists in
the world anymore because we always have
00:30:53
a distracting mechanism in our hands.
00:30:55
We have a machine that
is the boredom killer.
00:30:58
Sort of, right?
00:30:59
But, but it's not just killing boredom.
00:31:01
One could argue that it kills
imagination because boredom is
00:31:04
oftentimes what sparks imagination.
00:31:06
If you don't have time to be bored,
your brain never has a moment to do
00:31:09
the thing that it, that, that you
normally wouldn't allow it to do.
00:31:13
And so my question is
thinking about that time.
00:31:17
And thinking about the, the, the,
there's a lot of terrible things
00:31:21
that were happening during this time.
00:31:22
HIV and AIDS, the crack epidemic,
we can go on and on and on, right?
00:31:26
Reaganomics, right?
00:31:27
I mean, there's a lot,
I mean, right here in D.
00:31:28
C., for those of y'all who are
from here, it's a wild time, right?
00:31:32
Um, but on the positive side,
there was a lot of fantasy, right?
00:31:39
You mentioned the Jordan 5s.
00:31:41
And for those of us who were there
for that, This is when the ad
00:31:44
campaigns changed and they started
to talk about those sneakers as if
00:31:49
they could actually make you fly.
00:31:52
Right?
00:31:53
Do you think growing up in this
time, so my question is, do you think
00:31:55
growing up in this time fosters an
imagination or fosters a Mikey, right?
00:31:59
Into a space.
00:32:00
And, and, and is that still from
what you know, is that still, do
00:32:04
you think it's still the same?
00:32:06
Jay Ellis: It's interesting, bro.
00:32:07
I, I, um, I've read a
couple of quotes on boredom.
00:32:11
And how like boredom actually leads to
some of the most wonderful works in the
00:32:17
world that we've ultimately seen because
you have to let your mind be able to,
00:32:20
you have to be bored to let your mind
wonder to write, to, to imagine, to be
00:32:24
able to, to create at times, not all the
time, but a lot of times I think about my
00:32:30
childhood and we're, we're at that gap.
00:32:34
Since you said 38, we're in a crazy time,
and I don't know that people will ever
00:32:38
be able to, the closest thing I could
maybe think to people being able, being
00:32:42
able, excuse me, to understand it is
like my great grandma who was born before
00:32:46
cars, and then died like in the 90s, and
was like pushing a Buick until she died
00:32:51
in her 80s, you know what I'm saying?
00:32:53
Like, that to me is the
closest thing I could think of.
00:32:55
I could think of.
00:32:57
I think, uh, when I was born, there
were a handful of television stations.
00:33:01
And when I say a handful, like
there might've been like 12.
00:33:04
There might've been 10.
00:33:05
There might've been eight.
00:33:06
Jason Reynolds: You know
00:33:07
Jay Ellis: what I'm saying?
00:33:08
Jason Reynolds: Four, five, seven, nine.
00:33:10
You.
00:33:10
You.
00:33:11
Yeah.
00:33:11
Jay Ellis: And so And I remember
going like my, my maternal
00:33:17
grandma, her TV never even worked.
00:33:19
Like it was a, one of the big giant
floor joints and she was divorced.
00:33:22
So she couldn't move it at the house.
00:33:24
So it just sat there.
00:33:25
It was like, bro, it was a side table.
00:33:27
She had pictures all on the
top, you know what I'm saying?
00:33:30
She had draped, she had draped
a little, uh, uh, she had draped
00:33:33
a doily over it or something.
00:33:35
So, so.
00:33:37
And then I would go sit in Stockton,
California or go sit in Youngstown,
00:33:40
Ohio or Sacramento or whatever
and be bored all summer long, bro.
00:33:45
Like we would be told to go outside and
play, but there were also neighborhoods
00:33:48
that I couldn't like in Youngstown and in
Stockton, like I have family that lived
00:33:52
in neighborhoods where I could not go
outside and play because the block was
00:33:55
out for a completely different reason.
00:33:57
So boredom was just there.
00:34:00
And I do think to your point, that's
where a lot of it comes from because
00:34:02
my imagination was just able to
run wild with reckless abandon.
00:34:06
Now I got a four and a half year old
daughter who now all of a sudden her
00:34:13
favorite thing is to say, I'm bored.
00:34:17
We don't know where it came from.
00:34:18
It just started like in the
last six to eight weeks.
00:34:21
She's four and a half.
00:34:22
It just started in the
last six to eight weeks.
00:34:23
We have no idea where it came from.
00:34:25
And I go, cool.
00:34:30
Like, what do you want
me to do about that?
00:34:33
So find something to do.
00:34:34
Can I watch?
00:34:35
No, you can't.
00:34:35
Go find something to do.
00:34:37
Like, you're not going
to sit in front of a TV.
00:34:38
But then we're at that age where,
like, all of a sudden now, we
00:34:40
have this boom of 24 hour news
networks and this big cable boom.
00:34:45
And so now you have this imagination
that you had, that I had anyway as a kid,
00:34:48
and a lot of us, I think, had as kids.
00:34:50
But then you get thrown into, like,
now you have all these things that
00:34:53
are constantly being thrown at you.
00:34:55
Yeah.
00:34:56
nonstop from the internet to, you
know, you know, to Jason's point,
00:35:01
like in, in, in the beginning of
the book, I run all these things and
00:35:03
it's everything from like, Prince
Charles and Princess Diana getting
00:35:08
married, a billion people watched that.
00:35:10
So like, 83 million
people watched who shot J.
00:35:13
R.
00:35:13
Ewing.
00:35:14
Does anybody know?
00:35:16
I don't know who did it.
00:35:16
You know what I'm saying?
00:35:17
Like, but it was a crazy thing.
00:35:18
It like took over the world.
00:35:20
It was such a crazy thing.
00:35:20
But then you got the Bulls, you
have Team USA, you have, like
00:35:23
there's just so much stuff.
00:35:24
How about the Dominique Dawes?
00:35:26
Dominique Dawes.
00:35:28
Jason Reynolds: And Simone
00:35:28
Jay Ellis: Biles.
00:35:28
Yeah.
00:35:30
Uh, you got NAFTA.
00:35:32
You have the Cuban Adjustment Act.
00:35:33
You got like, there's just so many
things that were happening and
00:35:38
now it was all being televised.
00:35:40
And now as a kid, you're
just consuming all of that.
00:35:44
And ain't nobody taught you
how to process all of that.
00:35:46
And you shouldn't be sitting in
front of it, watching it all anyway.
00:35:49
And so I think that is like Mikey
came in because of the boredom.
00:35:53
And then now all of a sudden, as I got
a little bit older and I am watching
00:35:55
a lot of TV, Mikey's still there.
00:35:57
And now I'm soaking up some of what
I'm watching and that's playing
00:36:01
in my mind in its own way as well.
00:36:03
Jason Reynolds: It's like they
don't, their kids don't, they
00:36:05
don't, unfortunately don't
know what a power pellet is.
00:36:08
Let me explain it to you.
00:36:08
So a power pellet is any piece of
candy, uh, that you could, when we
00:36:12
were kids, and I'm, and this is a
lot of, my whole neighborhood would
00:36:15
do this, like you'll go outside and
play, and it's like, well, do what?
00:36:18
It's like, well, just go out there, right?
00:36:20
Like, just go outside.
00:36:20
First of all, we were raising
this time, you raised yourself.
00:36:22
That's the other thing that
we've all learned, is that our
00:36:25
parents did not do much raising.
00:36:26
It's like, you got to go outside,
And you don't, and don't come
00:36:29
back until it's dark, right?
00:36:31
Until it's almost dark.
00:36:32
But you better not go
off this block either.
00:36:33
But don't leave the block.
00:36:34
You better not go off this block either.
00:36:35
You need to be in voice range.
00:36:36
If I, if I scream your name,
you need to get back to the, you
00:36:39
need to get back to the door.
00:36:41
But I think about it all the time,
how we would just, me and my brothers,
00:36:43
we would all just go outside and
just, Try to make and make up
00:36:47
stories around like power pellets.
00:36:49
It could be peanuts, whatever
was small that we could eat.
00:36:52
And we'd be like, if I, if I eat this,
you know what's going to happen, right?
00:36:54
I mean, that's my power pellet.
00:36:55
And then I'm going to be this,
I'm going to be this, right.
00:36:57
And it's like, it's like,
I'm going to be stronger.
00:36:59
I'm going to be faster.
00:37:00
I'm going to get on my bike.
00:37:02
I'm going to be faster than you on a bike.
00:37:03
I'm going to, it's going to
be like, you know what I mean?
00:37:04
Like, and I, and I, I, it makes me
sad that kids today and not all of
00:37:10
them, because there are some parents
who are just old school and like,
00:37:13
nah, you're going to believe in magic.
00:37:14
Right.
00:37:14
Cause I think that's what it is.
00:37:16
It's like, I think kids don't
believe in magic anymore.
00:37:19
I, I, I miss, like when you were, when I
looked at all the pop culture references,
00:37:22
and I want to ask you, what's one, what's
a pop culture reference that you didn't
00:37:25
put in the book, that you want to spot?
00:37:28
Because I was reading it, and I was
like, how you talking about imagination,
00:37:31
and he don't mention this one.
00:37:34
I know I got that kind of smoke for him.
00:37:36
I know it's not real smoke, but it's, you
know, it's like brother smoke, you know,
00:37:40
Jay Ellis: imagination.
00:37:41
I missed it.
00:37:42
What did I miss?
00:37:44
I mean, I miss, I mean, I will say this,
that list was cut down a little bit.
00:37:49
That list was trimmed a little bit and
that list almost didn't make it, which
00:37:53
is really, which is really interesting.
00:37:56
My editor and I went back and forth
about this and after she got a
00:37:59
couple of reads internally on it.
00:38:01
A couple of them came back and said that
like they think that I should cut the list
00:38:06
and I was like not a list frames to me.
00:38:09
I got to set you in place in time.
00:38:11
And if I don't set you in place in
time, if you're not familiar with it
00:38:16
by reading this list, You can still
see how chaotic a lot of these things
00:38:20
were, that they were happening back to
back to back to back to back on each
00:38:23
other, same month, same years, whatever.
00:38:26
Um, and ultimately I was just
like, it's gotta be in there.
00:38:29
But, but I think, I don't know, I'm
trying to think of what I missed.
00:38:33
I don't know.
00:38:34
Jason Reynolds: Man, first of
all, do you really, is The Rock
00:38:35
really your favorite wrestler?
00:38:36
I just, I'm curious.
00:38:37
Jay Ellis: Alright.
00:38:38
Jason Reynolds: Hold on, hold on.
00:38:38
Cause that part was wild.
00:38:40
Hold on, The Rock?
00:38:41
That part was a little wild to me.
00:38:42
Are you about to say Hulk Hogan, bro?
00:38:43
Nah, but from our generation,
I'm 40, I know how old you are.
00:38:47
Right, we in the same range.
00:38:50
You really Sting?
00:38:51
No, that's a good answer though.
00:38:54
Boom.
00:38:54
That, he's the best.
00:38:55
Stone Cold?
00:38:56
He's the best.
00:38:57
And, and, and Ric Flair.
00:39:01
He's the best, he's the best.
00:39:02
Ric Flair is the best entertainer.
00:39:04
The best entertainer, the worst wrestler.
00:39:05
Worst wrestler, best entertainer, period.
00:39:07
And my favorite to watch was The
Undertaker, but if I should've
00:39:11
put The Undertaker, I should've
put The Undertaker there.
00:39:13
Come on man, Stone Cold, Steve Austin
with the big bomb, he like Bruh.
00:39:16
Come on man.
00:39:17
Stone Cold
00:39:17
Jay Ellis: is a good one.
00:39:17
Come on.
00:39:18
Stone Cold is a good one.
00:39:19
The
00:39:19
Jason Reynolds: Rock, The Rock
is at the end of our generation.
00:39:20
He's at the end of that.
00:39:21
He's at the end of that.
00:39:22
He's not even ours for real, he like my
00:39:23
Jay Ellis: little brothers.
00:39:24
But also, also, I was hoping that
I wish the Undertaker was in there.
00:39:28
I will say that because I loved the
Undertaker bro with Paul Bearer, Paul
00:39:32
Jason Reynolds: Bearer,
singing all the notes.
00:39:35
And also I was like, yo, I don't know
how you don't talk about Moonwalker.
00:39:41
Michael Jackson turned into
a Lamborghini and a panther.
00:39:46
Jay Ellis: Can I tell you, can I tell
you, can I tell you, you about to blow it.
00:39:49
I'm going to tell you three things that
were actually were repeated in that
00:39:52
list multiple times that I took out.
00:39:55
I'd actually repeated, um, crack cocaine.
00:40:00
Yeah.
00:40:00
Multiple times throughout that list.
00:40:03
Yeah.
00:40:03
So people can have an understanding
of how hard it actually hit our
00:40:07
communities and how present it
was, however present it was.
00:40:11
The second thing that was in
that list, there were multiple
00:40:13
Michael Jackson references.
00:40:14
I have Michael Jackson.
00:40:16
I have Michael Jackson
in a hyperbaric chamber.
00:40:18
I have Michael Jackson dark skinned.
00:40:21
I have Michael Jackson with a pet monkey
and I have Michael Jackson, light skin.
00:40:26
So I have multiple of them in there.
00:40:31
Because we went through, but also again in
10 years we saw a very different Michael.
00:40:35
So like, oh, and that's culture.
00:40:37
Yeah.
00:40:37
You know what I'm saying?
00:40:38
So like that was crazy.
00:40:39
Jason Reynolds: It was, it was very
strange, but our imaginations allowed us
00:40:41
to, our imaginations were like, it's fine.
00:40:45
Mike is Mike.
00:40:46
It's fine.
00:40:47
Right?
00:40:47
Like it's all good.
00:40:48
But speaking, but speaking of Mike,
and speaking of sort of, speaking
00:40:51
of Mike and Mikey, for that matter,
there's a part in the book where you
00:40:54
talk about sort of, where you're,
you're speaking as your today self, and
00:40:57
you're talking about like, well, like,
what exactly are imaginary friends?
00:41:01
And you start to sort of parse out
how they function, why they function
00:41:05
the way they do, so forth and so on.
00:41:08
There's a um, And, and you talk about
like celebrities and how like, you know,
00:41:11
it's, it's, it's no different than,
than, than alter egos, perhaps, right?
00:41:14
We could argue that it's
similar to alter egos.
00:41:17
As the, as the child gets older, does the
imaginary friend then become an alter ego?
00:41:22
Was Sasha Fierce somebody that
Beyonce knew 30 years ago, right?
00:41:26
Like, maybe.
00:41:27
Maybe, right?
00:41:29
And, and, and asking those questions.
00:41:30
There's an interview I read, uh, 15
years ago, Lady Gaga and Rolling Stone.
00:41:34
And she talked about how she's
very private, she keeps everything
00:41:37
separate, and so forth and so on.
00:41:39
She said she learned to do
this from Michael Jackson.
00:41:41
And she said that when Michael Jackson
got his hair burned in a Pepsi commercial,
00:41:46
she said, when he falls through the
bleachers, for those of you who are not
00:41:49
old enough for this, just, you, you,
you get Googles, she falls, he, he falls
00:41:52
through the bleachers, And as the mad,
the mad scramble happens, he puts one hand
00:41:57
in the air, but the hand he puts in the
air is the hand with the glove, right?
00:42:02
So that people know that Michael
Jackson, the, the, the entertainer,
00:42:06
this, this avatar is okay.
00:42:09
Michael Jackson, the man is okay.
00:42:11
is on fire, right?
00:42:12
But Michael Jackson, the
avatar is okay, right?
00:42:16
And so my question is, as you as you look
back on Mikey and you and I'm trying my
00:42:21
best not to ruin some of the stories.
00:42:22
I really wanted to ask you to tell
some stories, but I actually think it's
00:42:25
better for people to experience it.
00:42:27
There are some really It's a, it's,
this is a fire book about, you'll
00:42:31
learn a lot about him, and it'll make
you, I don't know, all y'all love
00:42:34
him, it'll make you love him more.
00:42:35
Uh, ha ha ha, once you, once you really
get to know, like, some of the things
00:42:40
he's been through, and also the kind
of kid that he was, which actually is,
00:42:44
was really endearing and interesting.
00:42:46
Um, so I don't want to spoil that for
you, but what I will say is, Mikey was
00:42:48
there through, sort of, pep talks through
love, Pep talks through violence and, and
00:42:54
gang stuff that y'all gotta read about.
00:42:56
Uh, Pep talks through, uh, uh,
the, the moving back and forth
00:43:01
and all of that kind of stuff.
00:43:01
Pep talks through, I mean, he
wasn't there as much as you got
00:43:05
to high school, but like thinking
about who you were in that moment.
00:43:07
But he was there sort of in,
in, in all these different
00:43:10
iterations of your young life.
00:43:12
But let's say, this is like
a Drop Dead Fred moment.
00:43:16
Do you remember this?
00:43:19
Jay Ellis: Of
00:43:19
Jason Reynolds: course it is.
00:43:21
I was surprised you ain't
mentioned that in the book.
00:43:24
So let's say this is a drop
dead Fred moment and Mikey walks
00:43:27
through the door and sits here.
00:43:30
What advice does Mikey get?
00:43:33
Like what does Mikey help
you do in this moment?
00:43:37
And I'm asking you to dissociate.
00:43:38
So I'm asking you to dissociate.
00:43:40
Yeah.
00:43:40
Jay Ellis: Yeah, that's interesting, bro.
00:43:42
I, um,
00:43:47
man.
00:43:49
That's interesting.
00:43:49
So interesting.
00:43:51
My first thought is he'd be like, damn,
why are these people in front of us?
00:43:56
Are you famous?
00:43:57
What's happening?
00:43:58
Like, what did you do?
00:43:59
Or he'd be like, yeah, they,
um, I, uh, I don't know.
00:44:09
That's such a good question, bro.
00:44:10
I think
00:44:13
he would tell me to remember to
slow down I think he would tell
00:44:19
me to remember to be present.
00:44:21
I think, like, I move so fast sometimes
that, like, I don't take care of myself.
00:44:26
You know what I'm saying?
00:44:27
And not only that, but I
don't enjoy all of the moment.
00:44:31
And I think that's a very human thing.
00:44:32
I think we all do that.
00:44:33
But I think Mikey would be like,
hey man, you gotta slow down.
00:44:36
And, and, and check,
actually see where you are.
00:44:42
And don't mess it up.
00:44:43
No, don't fuck it up.
00:44:44
Well, you know, don't mess it up.
00:44:45
Excuse me.
00:44:46
But you know what I'm saying?
00:44:46
Like, you know, I think like, I
feel like that would be like one
00:44:49
of the first things he would say
is like, yeah, you did the work.
00:44:52
Now slow down and enjoy it.
00:44:53
Also I think another thing he'd
be like, you wrote the book.
00:44:57
It's not yours anymore.
00:44:58
Let it go.
00:44:58
Jason Reynolds: It's not yours.
00:45:00
It's definitely not yours anymore.
00:45:02
Would you, I often wonder, do you think
he would take credit for your career?
00:45:06
Jay Ellis: Yeah.
00:45:06
Jason Reynolds: Yeah.
00:45:09
Based on his personality in the book.
00:45:11
You're welcome.
00:45:14
So then, so then explain what, how
do you think he, and we're going
00:45:17
to take some questions in a second.
00:45:18
Was that right, Ramunda?
00:45:19
Okay.
00:45:20
We're going to, I got this question and
I might ask one more short question and
00:45:22
we'll take some Q and A from you all.
00:45:24
Um, but, but do you think How do
you think that your relationship
00:45:30
with Mikey impacted who you became?
00:45:33
By the way, the, the impetus of you
even getting into all the tabloid
00:45:37
part is, it's brilliant because we
were all kids looking at that in the
00:45:40
grocery store and like, but, but how
do you think Mikey and having a Mikey,
00:45:45
um, contributed to you becoming J.
00:45:48
L.
00:45:48
S.
00:45:48
F.
00:45:48
Today, an actor and a person that a lot of
people have a lot of respect and love for.
00:45:53
And you play these roles
and you're doing your thing.
00:45:56
Thank you,
00:45:56
Jay Ellis: bro.
00:45:57
Um, I talk about this in the book a little
bit, but because I moved around so much,
00:46:02
every school I would move to, I would
adopt a whole new persona at that school.
00:46:07
Like if I didn't like How the last
persona played out at the previous school.
00:46:13
Well, nobody knew him at the new
school, so I could do whatever I wanted.
00:46:17
The new school, nothing
was coming with me.
00:46:18
There ain't no Facebook.
00:46:19
Ain't no, ain't no black planet.
00:46:21
You know what I'm saying?
00:46:21
Ain't no my space.
00:46:23
You know what I'm saying?
00:46:23
So I get to start all over and I
constantly found myself essentially
00:46:30
creating characters, essentially
acting, essentially improv ing.
00:46:33
Uh, but I didn't know that at the time.
00:46:37
It made it.
00:46:39
You know, there was a stretch where
it very much felt like the only way we
00:46:43
could get out of our circumstance was
to play sports or sing, you know, right?
00:46:48
There was a, there was a time where
we were kind of told or shown that
00:46:52
the only way that we could get out
of our circumstance was those things.
00:46:55
And I being a boy of that time and
hyper consumerism like gets pumped into
00:47:00
overdrive, I fall in love with basketball.
00:47:02
And I think like, this
is what I'm gonna do.
00:47:03
I'm gonna go play basketball.
00:47:05
And so, you know, So, that's kind of where
my high school years took me, which then
00:47:09
ultimately got me a college scholarship.
00:47:11
And then when I was in college,
all I could think about is how
00:47:15
jealous I was of the theater kids.
00:47:17
And like, I actually
wanted to be over there.
00:47:19
And I used a bunch of my electives
to take classes around the theater
00:47:23
program because I could never commit
to a production because I was hooping.
00:47:27
And so, I get done with school and
I'm like, all right, well now what?
00:47:33
I wanted to move to New
York to be in theater.
00:47:36
Alright, well now what?
00:47:37
Dude, you just want to be on TV, bro.
00:47:38
So just, like, you want to tell stories.
00:47:41
You want to be an actor.
00:47:42
Like, that's what you want to do.
00:47:43
So, like, go to the place to do that.
00:47:45
And I honestly don't know, I think
writing this book really helped me
00:47:50
understand that, like, oh, that is what
I was wanting to do and pretending to
00:47:55
do and playing at when I was a kid.
00:47:58
I just didn't really know what it was.
00:48:00
That's it.
00:48:01
And it was really this thing that
was inside me the whole time.
00:48:04
I just had to go on a
journey to get back to it.
00:48:06
And fortunately I was able to get
back to it and find it and then make
00:48:10
a living in a career as an actor.
00:48:12
So I think there's a profound effect of
Mikey in my life for how I got here today.
00:48:18
Jason Reynolds: Let's open it up.
00:48:19
I asked my last question later on.
00:48:20
Let's open it up.
00:48:22
Ramunda Young: Yeah, so let's give it up.
00:48:23
Let's give it up.
00:48:24
Let's give it up.
00:48:25
Yes.
00:48:25
Yes.
00:48:26
Yes So what I want to give a couple
of just quick Instructions because we
00:48:32
want to make sure you get your book
signed get a quick photo all that
00:48:35
kind of good stuff So we'll open up my
husband's on this side with microphone.
00:48:39
I'm gonna do questions on this I
will do about four questions two
00:48:42
over there and two over here, honey.
00:48:43
You want to start on your side?
00:48:44
Okay, so come on down come on down or
if we need to come to you if there's a
00:48:48
there's a concern I'll come up to you, but
00:48:51
Hi, good afternoon.
00:48:52
Thank you so much.
00:48:53
Um, I have a quick question,
just a quick comment.
00:48:57
Like, I'm African and I can't, can't even
imagine like telling my African parents
00:49:01
that I had like an imaginary friend.
00:49:03
They'd be like, blood of Jesus, you
do not have an imaginary friend.
00:49:08
Um, I think the closest I had was like
watching Mary Poppins and like trying
00:49:11
to jump into my mother's oil paintings.
00:49:13
Like that's, that's it.
00:49:15
But just, you know, kind
of linked to my comment.
00:49:17
If a parent has a child
and, you know, they're.
00:49:20
Talking about an imaginary friend,
how would you recommend they, you
00:49:23
know, discuss that or, like, approach
that in a way, like, we have all this
00:49:27
language now and all these concerns.
00:49:29
What would you say is, like,
the best way for them to talk
00:49:31
to their child about this?
00:49:33
Jay Ellis: Yeah, this is, this
is actually really fun, because
00:49:35
I'm in this world right now.
00:49:36
Uh, thank you for your question.
00:49:38
Um, My parents did pray for me.
00:49:41
I just want you.
00:49:41
There was anointing oils.
00:49:45
There's anointing oils right here.
00:49:48
I just want to be very clear.
00:49:50
There's a lot of praying.
00:49:51
You don't say it.
00:49:51
I want to be real oils.
00:49:56
But, uh, um, I'm kind of in this space
right now cause my daughter has, friends,
00:50:01
but then she's at that age where kids
in her school have imaginary friends
00:50:05
and parents are always like, Oh my
God, my kid has an imaginary friend.
00:50:08
Is he going to be weird?
00:50:08
Does she going to be weird?
00:50:09
Like what's happening?
00:50:10
And I always pull them to the side
and I say like, let your kid be a kid.
00:50:14
Like let their imagination run wild.
00:50:17
Cause the minute you take that
away from them, what do you might
00:50:20
as well take all of it away?
00:50:21
You know what I'm saying?
00:50:22
If that's the case, then you might
as well just pull all the wool
00:50:24
away because you're asking them
to be older than what they are.
00:50:28
And yes, There are times where like
some of our children may be a little
00:50:31
bit behind and, and we're, we're trying
to push them a little bit closer.
00:50:34
But for the most part, we're
always trying to push our kids.
00:50:38
Like, man, I can't wait till
she's not wearing diapers no more.
00:50:40
Whoo!
00:50:40
Like, man, I can't wait.
00:50:41
And it's like, they're a kid.
00:50:42
Like, they're supposed to go
through some of those steps.
00:50:45
And so I think we have to
remember that and, uh, encourage
00:50:48
that and let them have that.
00:50:50
Because once it gets real, as we
all know, It ain't no going back.
00:50:55
So let them have it because it'll
only serve them later in life.
00:50:58
And then I think the last piece of that
real quick, sorry, is just, um, uh,
00:51:03
making sure that we are talking to our
kids about their imaginary friends in
00:51:08
a way that, um, doesn't let our kids
use their imaginations to sometimes do
00:51:16
things that may not be safe for them.
00:51:19
Right?
00:51:19
I think we do have to make sure that
we're like also being like, okay, well,
00:51:24
Billy tell you to go run in the street.
00:51:25
Don't listen to Billy.
00:51:26
Okay.
00:51:27
Like whatever that is, like I think
we have to make sure that we are
00:51:30
talking to our kids about safety
still, even with these imaginary
00:51:32
friends, because like I was doing dumb
stuff with my imaginary friend that
00:51:35
could have gone sideways very fast.
00:51:39
Ramunda Young: Question on this hand.
00:51:43
We're doing questions,
comments, TED talks.
00:51:46
Not this
00:51:46
time.
00:51:48
Good question.
00:51:49
Hi Jason.
00:51:50
Hi Jay.
00:51:50
Thank you so much.
00:51:51
Jay Ellis: Yeah.
00:51:52
Thank you.
00:51:52
Um, You spoke so much about creativity
and imagination and I was wondering
00:51:57
if you could kind of break down how,
um, the creative experiences and
00:52:03
differs from acting versus the act
of writing and expressing yourself on
00:52:08
the page versus on stage or on film.
00:52:11
Jay Ellis: Yeah, uh, it was
a weird, weird experience.
00:52:15
Uh, uh,
00:52:19
wildly being vulnerable as a performer
00:52:25
Chill.
00:52:26
Uh, but it's what I do every day.
00:52:29
In the same way that someone could
stand up in front of a group of people
00:52:31
and speak if they were a professor.
00:52:33
They're like, that's what
I do every day, right?
00:52:35
And I think, um, I have also had the
luxury of having really great writing on
00:52:41
some of the things I've been able to do.
00:52:43
And I've also When I haven't had
great writing, I can hide behind that
00:52:47
and be like, well, I ain't write it.
00:52:49
Uh, my performance is
good, but I ain't write it.
00:52:51
So if you don't like the
story, that ain't on me.
00:52:53
This, for, for, this was the
first, this is the first time
00:52:56
where it's like, it is me.
00:52:57
It's all me.
00:52:58
There's nothing to hide behind, but me.
00:53:02
Uh, and so I think there was a, there,
that was a very sobering thing at
00:53:08
times because I was like, Oh, this
is, I have to put my all into this.
00:53:12
Yeah.
00:53:15
Nope.
00:53:15
Not going to say that, but there are
some folks, there are some folks,
00:53:19
there are some folks who write
books and they don't spend a lot
00:53:21
of time in front of the computer.
00:53:25
It is true though.
00:53:26
Ramunda Young: That's true.
00:53:27
Jay Ellis: It's true.
00:53:27
And I couldn't imagine that.
00:53:30
I couldn't imagine that.
00:53:31
I understand why.
00:53:32
I understand how busy life can be.
00:53:33
I understand how, um, how
afraid you can get doing it.
00:53:37
But I, when I realized that like, Oh,
I don't get to hide behind anybody.
00:53:41
It had to be me.
00:53:44
Because then at least if it didn't
work out, I could say it's on me.
00:53:47
I can't blame it on nobody else.
00:53:48
And when you go and read it, I
can't be like, well, he did it.
00:53:51
You know what I mean?
00:53:52
I wrote it.
00:53:53
So it's on me.
00:53:53
And that was another thing
that like really woke me up.
00:53:55
It made me like fully focused.
00:54:06
Hi.
00:54:07
Oh, you got it.
00:54:08
I'm sorry.
00:54:08
I'm like, hi Jason and Jay.
00:54:11
Thank you so much.
00:54:12
My name's Elsie.
00:54:12
And I just have a quick question.
00:54:14
Um, you said 68%
00:54:17
Children have an imaginary friend can
do you know what year it is has the
00:54:21
data increased throughout the year?
00:54:23
Do you think social media plays a role
in imaginary friends aren't decreasing?
00:54:27
Is there a support some kind of curious?
00:54:29
I am excited to read the book tonight.
00:54:30
It's my bedtime story But I do
want to know like with Like it's
00:54:35
a 68 percent currently as it is
this year 2024 or was that during
00:54:39
your time when you were growing up?
00:54:41
Is that your percentage and then
Is there a difference in data
00:54:45
now that we see social media?
00:54:46
Cause there wasn't social media at
the time that you were growing up.
00:54:49
Jay Ellis: Yeah.
00:54:49
So the, the studies that I use in the
book or articles, uh, or other books
00:54:53
that I cite range from like 1986 to
like 2022, there's a, there's about five
00:54:58
or six of them in there and they all
have a different, timestamp, obviously,
00:55:02
and they were done at different times.
00:55:03
So there's a bit of a
range of data in there.
00:55:06
Uh, one of the things very specifically
to the 68%, which you will read tonight
00:55:11
when you go to bed, uh, because that's
in the first couple of pages, but, uh,
00:55:16
it tends to be between like four or five
years old and 10, 11 years old is when
00:55:22
most kids have their imaginary friend.
00:55:25
Um, It doesn't obviously
go into worldwide.
00:55:28
It doesn't go into like different
continents or different cultures.
00:55:32
It's obviously a more general statement,
but about five to 10, five to 11.
00:55:39
Yeah.
00:55:39
Yeah.
00:55:40
Ramunda Young: Awesome.
00:55:41
Last question.
00:55:46
Hey, what's going on?
00:55:47
J Jason.
00:55:48
Um, so I've been doing a lot of research
about speculative imagination and how
00:55:53
I'm in stories like Afrofuturism and
everything, our imagination, imagination.
00:55:57
Kind of creates these worlds,
um, that can be a bit better
00:56:00
than the world that we're in.
00:56:01
Um, you talked a lot about how as
children, we have our imagination, we get
00:56:05
older, we kind of lose that imagination,
but it's very clear you still have yours.
00:56:09
So, um, if you and Mikey had an
opportunity to use your imagination to
00:56:14
solve a problem in today's world to make
it a bit better, what might that be?
00:56:18
Jay Ellis: Oh man.
00:56:20
Well, I mean, we are in a dumpster fire
right now, so I guess we would just try
00:56:25
to put the lid on the dumpster so we
can put the flames out because we in it.
00:56:29
We in the eye of it.
00:56:31
Um, First of all, thank
you for your question.
00:56:34
Uh, and I lost my imagination
along the way, by the way.
00:56:36
I think like, and I think
it happens to all of us.
00:56:39
I think I found it because I came
into acting and I got to play
00:56:42
in a different way, but then the
business of entertainment also
00:56:45
kind of takes that out of you.
00:56:46
And you get a little bit of jaded and
you just show up and you do it a job
00:56:49
and then you got to go fill your cup
again and find how you're inspired.
00:56:51
And so I do think it's a rollercoaster.
00:56:53
I don't think it's all or nothing.
00:56:55
Um, I would say, you know, in,
in terms of a problem, man, I, I,
00:57:02
I don't know, man.
00:57:03
I, I, I think my first
thought would be education.
00:57:08
And when I say that, I think people
forget how wildly important, not, not
00:57:14
necessarily the same people in this
room, um, but I think people forget how
00:57:17
wildly important those years are and how
they will ultimately, not, ultimately,
00:57:24
Not that you will not change along the
way, but they will set up so much of the
00:57:27
person that you are going to become and
what you believe and how you move and
00:57:30
who you associate with in terms of, uh,
race or religion or whatever it may be.
00:57:36
And I think there is this, um, openness
or curiosity or wonder that I would want
00:57:44
myself and Mikey to hopefully be able to
tackle and open up both in the adults,
00:57:50
Who teach children and then also making
sure that those children have it because
00:57:54
that's that that's who's gonna be taking
care of us Down the line, you know I
00:57:58
mean when we're sitting at the house
and they're running the world and and I
00:58:02
think we're in that place where we have
to Make sure we're constantly investing
00:58:06
and introducing and making sure they're
reading And also making sure that we're
00:58:10
using our emotional intelligence In a way
that allows them to be the fullest person.
00:58:18
They can be awesome.
00:58:20
Ramunda Young: Awesome.
00:58:22
Jason Reynolds: Do I get
to ask my last question?
00:58:24
Ramunda Young: Yes.
00:58:24
Come on brother.
00:58:25
Jason, you can ask your last question.
00:58:26
Yes.
00:58:27
Jason Reynolds: My last question,
which I've asked 1000 people
00:58:30
whenever I do these events.
00:58:31
Um, if you can go back to your
10 year old self, what would
00:58:39
you think 10 year old J for
00:58:49
Jay Ellis: still
believing Still believing.
00:58:53
Cause when you kill hope,
you know what I mean?
00:58:56
I do.
00:58:57
When you kill belief,
when you kill imagination,
00:59:02
then what?
00:59:02
Then what?
00:59:03
You kill the spirit.
00:59:04
Then you kill the spirit.
00:59:04
You know what I mean?
00:59:05
Then what?
00:59:06
Um, and so I think it's that man.
00:59:09
I think I, I joke with people all the
time when they're like about me being
00:59:13
an actor and I go, look, I was just
stupid enough to believe I could do it.
00:59:16
Yeah.
00:59:17
Like, We have to be able to believe
in something, something bigger than
00:59:21
us, a different world, a different
situation, a different job, a different
00:59:26
life circumstance, whatever it may be,
we have to be able to believe in that.
00:59:29
And if, if not, then
what are we doing here?
00:59:32
And so I, I think like there are
some things that by 10 years old,
00:59:36
there's some things that didn't make
the book that I don't talk about.
00:59:38
I didn't want to write a book
about trauma necessarily, not that
00:59:41
there's anything wrong with that.
00:59:42
That's just not the story that I
wanted to write about imagination.
00:59:45
And.
00:59:45
Enjoy and creativity and play, but
I think there are some things that
00:59:49
I saw and a lot of us see very
young in life that could kill that.
00:59:54
And the people around you because of the
very serious survival situation that they
01:00:00
are put in could kill that inadvertently
and advertently depending on who it is.
01:00:07
And then you kind of
have, you're just here.
01:00:09
So yeah,
01:00:11
Jason Reynolds: the best of
life is for the unreasonable.
01:00:13
Ladies and gentlemen, Please
give it up for Jay Ellis.
01:00:22
Ramunda Young: Yes.
01:00:23
Yes.
01:00:23
Give it up for Jason Reynolds to
01:00:25
Jay Ellis: give it up for Jason, please.
01:00:27
Ramunda Young: Give it
up for Mahogany books
01:00:29
Briana Littlejohn: to
01:00:32
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