Ben Crump on Civil Rights, Literature, and the Fight for Justice

[00:00:00] Hey y'all, it's Nakara, host of Dot Dot Dot But Make It Books, a podcast where we're bookishly healing through life. In this podcast, we use fiction and nonfiction as a doorway into the deeper parts of life. Think ambition, healing identity, the questions you didn't even know you were carrying. Every episode, we let the book lead us somewhere real. Because the best stories don't just entertain you, they help you understand yourself.

[00:00:24] So go ahead and find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Subscribe now and bring your whole self to the conversation. Peace y'all. This is the MahoganyBooks Podcast Network. Okay, good evening. My name is Ramonda Young and welcome to MahoganyBooks. Yes, welcome to MahoganyBooks. Okay, MahoganyBooks off-site because our store is actually across the street.

[00:00:54] But we were so excited and honored to host this event that we were trying to find a space on this date because a lot of places are closed and we found this one. So I'm excited that you all are here to be a part of this historic conversation. So tonight, I am thrilled to welcome you to a special conversation as we celebrate More Than a Lie. It's the debut fiction thriller from attorney Ben Crump. But first, I'm thrilled to introduce our conversation host this evening.

[00:01:21] MahoganyBooks is so honored to welcome professor, award-winning author, producer, activist, Dr. Ilyasa Shabazz. She is Malcolm X's daughter and she is here tonight to have the conversation. Yes! What? Yes! Dr. Ilyasa Shabazz is an award-winning author, as I mentioned. She's an advisor for the PBS award-winning film, Prince Among Slaves, the documentary,

[00:01:49] and is currently producing a television series based on her latest publication, The Awakening of Malcolm X. She is co-chairperson of the Malcolm X and Dr. Betty Shabazz Memorial and Educational Center. And Dr. Shabazz has furthered her community impact with the City University of New York's Office of Academic Affairs, where she created curriculum to encourage higher education for undeserved inner-city high school dropouts.

[00:02:14] She founded and produced a young adult development program to provide historical context on social justice. Dr. Shabazz is a member of the SOAR Higher Cabinet Committee for SUNY at New York Paltz College, a member of the Advisory Council of the Equal Rights Amendment Coalition, and I'm a Zeta, but she's a proud member of Delta Sigma Theta. So, I hear y'all. Go ahead. I hear y'all. But she is a very proud member of Delta Sigma Theta. My sister's in the D9 movement.

[00:02:44] So, please help me welcome the amazing Dr. Ilyasa Shabazz. Yep, that's fine. Here's fine. I know you guys are ready for Ben Crump.

[00:03:14] And so, next, our featured author tonight. And actually, you know what, Ilyasa? You have five books, I believe. Five amazing books as well. Award-winning books. So, I want to give it up for her as an author as well. Let's give it up for her. Yes. Dr. Shabazz. So, Attorney Ben Crump is listed among the most influential people of 2021 by Time 100, Emity Magazine's Power 100, Most Influential African Americans.

[00:03:42] He's also the National Trial Lawyers Top 100 Lawyer, and the 2014 NNPA Newsmaker of the Year. He is often referred to as Black America's Attorney General. We know. Through a steadfast dedication to justice and service, renowned civil rights and personal injury attorney, Trump has established himself as one of the nation's foremost lawyers and advocates for social justice.

[00:04:09] His legal acumen has ensured that those marginalized in American society are protected by their nation's contract with its constituency. He is the founder and principal owner of Ben Crump Law. Y'all, please help me welcome to the stage, Attorney Benjamin Crump.

[00:04:58] We're in for a treat. It is such an honor to be here with Sir Ben Crump, Esquire. You're very kind, Queen. Let me say thank you. We know your time is very valuable. And I'm just so honored that you all didn't consider robbery to come and be with us in Mahogany Books,

[00:05:24] in Ramonda and Derek Young's Mahogany Books, our first book signing of 42 around the country. So, y'all give him some love. We got to support our black literature more than ever now. More than ever. And I have to say something about this young guy. Just a few housekeeping things and I know time is the essence.

[00:05:54] I want to thank all of my fellow sisters and brothers in the bar, the black lawyers who came out to be with us. Y'all please stand because we all in this together. So all the black lawyers who are here.

[00:06:19] And then my father-in-law, Mr. George Brown, came to be with us. So thank you, Mr. George. Also, Attorney Antoinette Boxdale, it's her birthday today and she came to be with us. So give us a round of applause.

[00:06:41] And it has been said that all great men may not be members of Omega Psi Phi fraternity, but all members of Omega Psi Phi fraternity are great men. So y'all give it up for the greatest fraternity on planet Earth, Omega Psi Phi.

[00:07:05] And then, Cliff Jones, thank you for keeping me on schedule. And last but not least, before we start our conversation, I really want to thank you, Dr. Ilyasa Shabazz,

[00:07:27] because her and her family and my legal team, we are embroiled in a historic lawsuit against New York City,

[00:07:46] the FBI, and the CIA to finally get justice for the assassination of Malcolm X 60 years later. And I'm so very proud, and I'm sure your father and mother are how you are helping carry the legacy of your father. So thank you, Ilyasha Shabazz.

[00:08:10] So much, you guys. It's really very much appreciated. We really need all of us to come together, right? That's what it's all about. What if they said there's an African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone.

[00:08:39] But if you want to go far, go together. And it's the only way we're going to win, because we are not the minority in the world. So, you know. We are the majority in the world. That's right. Amen. Amen. I don't know if everyone is aware, but Sir Ben Crump Esquire won an Emmy for his documentary, How to Sue the KKK.

[00:09:10] And so today we've gathered here because he has a new book. And it is a must read, and it is excellent. Worse than a lie. So this is your debut novel. There are many of us who follow you, who appreciate you tremendously, and your ethical, by any means necessary work ethics, right? Amen.

[00:09:38] And we'd like to know, why did you write this book? Certainly. And Tasha Cole is also an Emmy winner, so give it up for your Delta sister. A person who helped inspire me, Sabina. People who made documentaries, and this goes into answering your question.

[00:10:03] We narrated and produced that documentary, How to Sue the Klan after five black women were racially profiled and shot by members of the KKK in 1982 in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

[00:10:21] And those ordinary black women, after they survived this racial violence, they had the courage and the audacity to say they would not get to have the last word. They will not get to control the narrative. They were the courage and they sued the Klan.

[00:10:48] I mean, think about that in 1980s, deep south Tennessee, the courage and the audacity. And they gave us the blueprint of how you stand up against bigotry and oppression and racial profiling, racial violence, and just outright evil. And I believe that precedent was very relevant in 1982.

[00:11:18] And I think it's just as relevant now, today, in 2026, that we have to have the audacity to speak truth to power, and we have to have the audacity to create narratives that inspire our next generation of social justice warriors and civil rights lawyers. Because now more than ever, now more than ever.

[00:11:45] And so, in that same vein is why I wrote Worse Than A Lie, the first in the Bowley Cooper novel series. My personal hero, Thurgood Marshall once said that most people will never know what happens inside of a courtroom when you're fighting for justice for marginalized people.

[00:12:14] So, he said he was intentional in writing his legal memorandums of law and his pleadings to be very enticing and very engaging so that people could be educated when they read about Brown v. Boyd, when they read about all his other important historical cases.

[00:12:38] And so, what I said to myself, what could be more engaging than a legal thriller to entice people and educate people and empower people? I mean, I've read all these books by John Grisham, you know, the Rainmaker, Michael Colley, the Lincoln Lawyer, obviously the great Perry Mason books that were written in the 20s and the 30s.

[00:13:08] But all of those books had these superhero lawyers, but none of them had a superhero lawyer that looked like many of us in this room. And I said, I'm going to change that.

[00:13:24] And thank God, people have received it so warmly and the reviews have been really encouraging that this is a superhero trial lawyer series that has a different kind of flavor. Because it's so representative of a community that you don't read about in those other books.

[00:13:50] These diverse people also exhibited in the brilliance in and out of the courtroom, the resources, the efforts to be able to beat a broken system. And that's why I think people are cheering for this new Bo Lee Cooper series so much.

[00:14:10] Because just like To Kill a Mockingbird with Harper Lee back 80 years ago, inspire young people to want to go and use the law as an instrument for good rather than a weapon of oppression. I pray worse than a lie would do the same.

[00:14:32] All right, that was answering like three of the questions that I had. So I'm going to have to like really jump ahead of this brother. Okay, here's one. Why was it important for you to contrast the great joy of President Barack Obama's election with the tragedy of Hollis? Yes.

[00:14:59] So I know by next week when I do the book signings, everybody will know everything about the book. But since this is the first night at the historic mahogany bookstore, I can't say that enough. The first book signing will be at Barnes & Noble and others. But it was important to be at this black owned bookstore today to do the first one. And big up to Romanda, of course. Yeah.

[00:15:27] Can't say it enough, Romanda and Breonna and all of you for making sure as they try to get rid of black literature, we say not on our watch.

[00:15:42] So the book is about Hollis Montrose, this black police officer who on the night of the historic election in 2008, was shot by four white police officers ten times. And he survived.

[00:16:12] But then, just like we see happening in reality so many times, even though they have video, they tried to oppress the truth. And they then charged the black police officer with attempted murder. And imprisoned him even though he couldn't walk and was paralyzed.

[00:16:38] Because the system is one that takes the police narrative as the gospel. And we have to challenge that system every time. And we see life, in many ways, imitating art with worse than a lie. Because Sabina, as I talked to you earlier, Sabina's with ABC News.

[00:17:09] Alex Peretti in Minneapolis also was shot ten times. And when you read the book, you'll see these four officers around them. And they all claim he had a gun, even though he had a permit to carry it. And they all claim they felt in fear of their life when they started discharging their weapons. And even though you had a young lady videoing with her cell phone,

[00:17:36] they came up with all kind of technical reasons why you shouldn't believe your lying eyes. Don't that sound familiar with the authorities in Minneapolis? And so enters this country lawyer named Bo Lee Cooper and his team of social justice warriors

[00:18:01] that involve a lot of people from our community, returning citizens, people who were from Spanish-speaking countries. And they all come together to help Bo Lee Cooper to beat this broken system. And early on, attorney Bo Lee Cooper realizes that to beat this broken system

[00:18:28] is going to take more than just the truth. So that's the background for the book when he's fighting against the Chicago machine, one that's very similar to what we saw in Louisville with Breonna Taylor, with Houston and Sandra Bland, with Sanford, Florida, with Trayvon. I mean, all these things, when the truth is right there in our face, they say you still don't get justice.

[00:18:55] And so it was intentional to answer your question, Ilyasa. I intentionally wanted to create this allegory for the reader using, you know, these symbolic characters and events and settings, like the election of the first black president of the United States,

[00:19:20] where people were saying that there wouldn't be a need for civil rights anymore because now we're in a post-racial America. And even in the chapter before Bo Lee is brought into the case, he and his wife are talking and he said he was on the airplane when they announced the results of the election. And a white gentleman on the plane said to him, look like you're going to have to find a new career

[00:19:48] because there ain't going to be no need for civil rights anymore. Y'all just elected a black president. So what I was trying to do very intentionally is foreshadowing, like what happened when we elected Barack Obama, this great moment of hope and promise for America, just opposed with the pushback, a lot that we're seeing today. And I think a lot of the reviews are picking up on that.

[00:20:17] And even in the trial scenes in the courtroom, they all talk about this election. And we're not trying to be preachy. We're just talking about how people thought America was going to be after the election of President Obama and the reality of what America was after the election of President Obama. Now, I know I'm preaching to the choir,

[00:20:41] but many people thought that there wasn't going to be a need for us. There wasn't going to be any more police brutality or discrimination and racism. But my Lord, we know that wasn't true. So that's what this book talks about. And it talks about, Eliasah, how we're able to overcome it

[00:21:07] despite all the pushback to our progress. Amen. So it sounds like the moral arc of the universe is long, long, long. But it bends towards justice. That's right. And we have to help bend it. That's right.

[00:21:32] And that's what Bo Lee Cooper and his ragtag team do in every book. And any resemblance to the initials B, C? Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Some similarities. Okay. So Worse Than a Lie was five years in the making for you, all the while serving the people who need you the most.

[00:22:02] What was the process like for you, and what was that impact on your family? Well, I said, you know, writing a book, you've written several, so, you know, it is a process. And for me, it was therapeutic. Because you got to remember what was happening five years ago. We were in the thralls of the pandemic. And when everything was shut down in America,

[00:22:31] seems like itself racism and police brutality. I mean, we had the killing of Breonna Taylor, of Ahmaud Arbery, and George Floyd. So we were working on those cases. And obviously, if you're a human being and you see George Floyd video, it has an emotional, psychological effect on you,

[00:23:00] just if you're a human being. And if you see Breonna Taylor's, those photographs of her laying in that hallway with eight bullet holes in her body and her nightgown, it has an effect on you.

[00:23:22] So it was therapeutic to write about a story where you understood all the conflicts that come with not just a tragedy of unnecessary, unjustifiable, and unconstitutional killings of innocent people, mostly marginalized people of color,

[00:23:52] but trying to create a narrative where people could be educated about what happens in the aftermath. You see all this stuff going on where we're pushing the narrative in the court of public opinion while we're fighting against intellectual justification of discrimination every day in the court of law.

[00:24:20] And so we kind of, Tasha, tell the story through these characters. And then you try to create narratives that try to turn out all their excuses for how they justify killing us. I mean, and when you get in the trial scene and I don't want to give it away, but, you know, Hollis is on that stand and they are assassinating his character

[00:24:48] even though you couldn't find a person that was a better citizen. And that was intentional, because every time they kill us, what do they do? They try to assassinate our character. And if you, my God, if you were ever arrested or you're a convicted felon or if you are a person undocumented, it's almost if they say, oh, it doesn't matter what we do to you because you don't matter.

[00:25:16] So we went to find somebody who was the best citizen, a former police officer, a person in the community, wasn't tainted in any way. But it didn't matter because they never saw him. They saw what they projected on him. And so that night, after their blood was boiling because a black president had been elected

[00:25:45] and it's even in the lines where we talk about them saying when Hollis is trying to plea this case that, you know, he's a police and everything, they say, shut up, boy. We're in control here. It doesn't matter if that boy is in the White House. And you try to paint that picture, but Hollis is such a good person. How could you treat him like this? And it shouldn't matter

[00:26:15] whether he was a convicted felon or an undocumented immigrant. He's a human being. And that's what I was trying to paint this picture. And then, see, even the best of us, they still try to assassinate the character to protect the institution. And so that's what Bo Lee is fighting. He's fighting the institutions that make up the broken system.

[00:26:43] And it gets very entertaining because you got them going against the police. And I mean, it's one of those situations when you think about all great legal thrillers, you're like, man, how they gonna pull this out? And at the very last hour, you see the brilliance that many of the National Bar Association lawyers,

[00:27:11] these lawyers like Thurgood Marshall and Johnny Cochran and Constance Baker Motley, what they had to do to win cases with juries that didn't have the same lifestyle or life experiences, none of the cultural understandings, but what they had to do to be able to convince them that the police were wrong, that the system was wrong, that America was wrong.

[00:27:40] And that's what you get in this first book, Worse Than a Lie. So hopefully I answered your question. That's why I wanted to be intentional about President Obama's election. I see. And so it sounds like it's fictional. Did you guys think it was a true book? Did you think it was biographical? Have you read it yet? Don't come out till tomorrow. Okay. Y'all get in the book before it come out.

[00:28:11] So it sounds like, it sounds like this is how you cope, because I was going to ask you, how do you cope with the emotional toll that your career brings, right? Because we all see you with all of this grace, you know, your presence, right, precedes you, right? How are you able to be graceful and kind and thoughtful and loving?

[00:28:40] Because we know everybody needs Ben Crump. You're very kind, Eliasen. And I see Jay Wendell Gordon, all my colleagues all here. Good to see you, brother. Well, a lot of it comes from, you know, reading about Thurgood Marshall when he talked about you have to keep your eyes on the prize. He said, you got to stay focused

[00:29:11] because obviously it gets to you. I still think about Trayvon Martin every day. You know, I think about Mike Brown. You think about Pamela Turner and Botham Jean and Terrence Crutcher and Sandra Bland and Stephan Clark and, you know, Breonna Taylor, George Florida, Maude Aubrey, Andre Hill. I mean, you think about it and the list just goes on and on and on. But in every one of those situations,

[00:29:42] I always had Thurgood in my mind saying, hey, you got to keep it together because everybody around you are losing it and emotionally because it's the worst day of their life to lose a child, to lose a loved one, to lose a spouse. You know, it's the worst day of their life. So you're trying to keep it together and keep your eyes on the prize to help them try to make sense out of something that makes no sense at all. I mean,

[00:30:11] you don't even want to put yourself in the shoes of Sabrina Fulton, Trayvon's mother or, you know, Mike Brown singing Leslie McSpot and them. Because it's too real for so many people in this room. And so, what I always do is Thurgood said, keep your eyes on the prize, stay focused because what you're trying to do is prevent

[00:30:41] future lynchings, as many as you can. Because, you know, he was dealing when they were hanging us up by trees and castrating us and everything. So every fight was trying to prevent that. I'm trying to prevent these modern day lynchings. Like Tyree Nichols, you know, the video is there and we're still fighting for justice. And so, it's that. And then, I see Martin Mayhew, one of my pro fights, the omegas, you know,

[00:31:10] you learn from everybody, perseverance. perseverance. And, you know, perseverance is so critical. Like you said, Ilyasa, the more arc of the universe is long. I mean, you fighting these cases, we've not been at it four years on your father's case and, I mean, you just keep fighting. It never is going to be easy when you're fighting for justice for the least of these, as my grandmother

[00:31:39] said. But, it's like I say in the book, in the first page, in the dedication, when you're seeking to fight for truth and justice, it is not for the faint of heart. You got to be willing and boldly, I mean, they coming for him. I mean, everybody coming from here, the police union,

[00:32:08] the prosecutor and the judge, his partners are saying, maybe we should just let it go. But, you know, like, a true believer, they just so focused on saying, no, it matters. If we don't fight for Hollis, then, why do we have the law degree? We might as well give it back. And that's her oath to our ancestors. And so, that's what it's about. It's art

[00:32:38] imitating life, life imitating art. You might see some similarities between Bo Lee Cooper and Ben Lloyd Crump. Maybe. Your ancestor's story is proof that strength and dignity endure even when everything else is taken away. When it comes to honoring that legacy, your privacy should never be in question. At AfricanAncestry.com, your story and your information belong to you. We destroy

[00:33:08] every DNA sample and never sell or share your data with anyone. Discover where in Africa your story began accurately and safely with AfricanAncestry.com. Maybe. A little bit. So, with, you know, this is Black History Month and, you know, with the constant erasure of our history. Forget about books, but just our history. Why is it critical for

[00:33:39] these young people to read your book? Yeah, and it's what I said. You're trying to get them ready for if you going to be a social justice warrior and a civil rights lawyer. You understand from day one, it's not for the faint of heart. It ain't going to be easy. If you're scared, say you're scared. And get out of the way so people who ain't scared can come on and go fight for our people. Fight for

[00:34:08] the Constitution. Fight against ICE and, you know, the assault on the Constitution. And so, that's what hopefully young people are inspired to say that, you know, no matter how much the cards are stacked against us, we still believe we can get justice as long as we're willing to fight for it. No matter how much they come for you. It's about, and there's a, there's some beautiful

[00:34:40] poetry in the book, I think, poetic times where at their, their lowest lows, it's always somebody there to say, we believe in you, bro, keep fighting. And when they get to talking, I won't, I know I won't give it away, but even the title, you know, my, worse than a lie. My grandmother, when I was a little boy, my grandmother kept us a lot because, you know, your mama was working a lot.

[00:35:09] And I always remember my grandmother saying that, what's worse than a lie? to tell the truth and have nobody believe you. And so, you see in this, you see in this book, it gets so much worse when you're in a court of law and you're a person of color trying to argue your truth and they just keep slamming the door in your face. And I thought, Ilyasa, and all the lawyers

[00:35:39] will understand this, how many times our sisters and brothers have had to go in courtrooms and lie on themselves and take these trumped up plea deals because they knew if they did not take the plea deal and they went to court, the very real likelihood was they were going to spend decades in prison for a crime they can commit.

[00:36:09] And that's worse than a lie. Wow. I should have ended there but I'm going to give you one more question. Because isn't he precious? Let's give him a round. This is the last question, Romanda. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett said,

[00:36:39] she said, every once in a while a book like To Kill a Mockingbird is written and it inspires a generation of civil rights attorneys. And she said that your book, Ben, is that book for this generation. What challenges can we expect for the next generation of civil rights attorneys? Oh man, we're seeing it play out daily. I mean, the state

[00:37:07] of civil rights in America today is one I think that we haven't seen and many of us haven't seen in our lifetime. Maybe our parents saw it under the George Wallace's and those type people but now what we're seeing, Tasha, coming from the highest positions in authority authority. I'm looking at people who've been

[00:37:37] working inside white houses and so forth and you see how they are using the law as a weapon for oppression every single day. I mean, every single day. When you look at the actions of ICE, I mean, you think about what we're seeing play out in places like Chicago with ICE and Minneapolis and Memphis, Tennessee. You have ICE agents

[00:38:08] assaulting the Constitution on every level. Our most basic principles of the Constitution, they're attacking the First Amendment right to free speech and freedom of assembly and freedom of the press. You know, they just arrested Don Lemon and Georgia Ford and so forth. Then you see them assault the Second Amendment with the killing of Alex Peretti. What did they say? Well, he had a gun even though he was licensed and so forth.

[00:38:38] They shot him and they just completely forgot about Kyle Rittenhouse talking about where you shouldn't bring a gun to a protest. He took an assault weapon to a protest. I mean, and then the Fourth Amendment, oh my God, the right to be protected against unlawful searches and seizures. I mean, they're kicking in people's doors without any warrants, without any probable cause. I mean,

[00:39:08] just racial profiling. I mean, kicking in people's car windows, snatching them out. I mean, it's like you've never seen an assault like this on the Fourth Amendment. Then the Fifth Amendment, a right to due process of the law. All the lawyers understand that one of our most cherished, our most cherished legal rights in America is that we are innocent into proving guilty.

[00:39:38] Not with this ice. I mean, you are guilty until you can prove your innocence because the Supreme Court has said they're okay with racial profiling. I mean, and it's just heartbreaking to watch all these constitutional rights that have been hard fought for just being erased by this administration. The Sixth Amendment right to counsel. I mean, you got people in detention facilities

[00:40:08] that their lawyers are trying to get in to have consultation with them and they won't even let the lawyers in. They're making them have to speak for themselves. And then, the worst of all, Ilyasa, the worst of all is the assault on the Eighth Amendment right against cruel and unusual punishment. I mean, you got people in these ice detention facilities who need their medicines

[00:40:38] to survive, to live. They're insulin. They need their, you know, heart medicine and so forth. And they're not getting it. And people are dying and nobody's holding this administration accountable. And so, that's the state of civil rights in America today. Now more than ever, we got to have young people to be

[00:41:08] courageous. Like we haven't seen. Billy Murphy, my good friend, 84 years young, he always tells me, and I've said this on prior occasion, he said, Ben, you know, the reason I get so happy when I see you on the news and so forth is I don't care what the case is. He said, you're going to speak truth to power.

[00:41:38] He said, you see, you understand Brother Crump. He said, we got enough intelligent African Americans in a society today. He said, we got enough articulate African Americans in society today. He said, what we seem to lack is enough African Americans who got the courage to speak truth

[00:42:07] to power when they got a seat at the table, when they are in the room, when they can give a voice to those who would never have a voice inside those rooms. Instead of speaking up for us, they'd rather play it safe. And he said, that's, that's the real tragedy. So many people sacrifice, your father gave his life for this generation to be able

[00:42:37] to have all these opportunities at these great education and these great jobs and these great resources in the belief that they will fight for those of us who didn't get those opportunities. I mean, the sacrifices of our ancestors in slavery in the cotton fields, being beaten and kidnapped

[00:43:06] and raped and lynched just with the dream that our children and their children will have a better opportunity than us. So they sacrificed. During the civil rights era, you had so many of our mothers and fathers sacrificing, getting up to catch the early bus to go and take care of other people's families, nurse other people's children,

[00:43:35] cook dinner for other people while their children had to be home, trying to figure it out with grandma and auntie and, you know, their cousins because they were sacrificing because they said we were going to have it better. We were going to be able to make a difference for those of us who wouldn't be as fortunate as us to get a semblance of the American dream and that those people,

[00:44:04] those talented tent were going to fight for us. And so it's just a shame before God if they get a seat at the table and they don't live up to the sacrifices of our ancestors. And that's what, that's what we expect from this generation of civil rights lawyers. Well, I want to say so many things but I'm going to say, you guys, let's give it up for Ben Crump.

[00:44:43] Fantastic, fantastic. All right, all right, all right, guys. We're going to do a quick transition to Q&A. We're going to take two questions. We're going to grab your seats, please. Y'all give it up for Iliasa. Dr. Shabam. Fantastic moderation. Again, we're going to do two questions. Stand up where you are. I'll call on you. Then I'll repeat,

[00:45:12] say your question. I'll repeat the question for Attorney Crump to then answer, okay? Right here. Go ahead, stand up. Right, Mr. Ben Crump. Thank you so much. I started my nonprofit organization because of the George Floyd masterminds. And it's called WC and my first year's planner was working at the United States at that time, which I think was President Biden for a bond. He wasn't able

[00:45:42] to work for this type of presentation administration for obvious reasons. My mom won her landmark Supreme Court case against employment discrimination and I actually shook hairs with Rosa Tart because I was a young girl at 10 years old. So my question is about my mom's case. It's a landmark truth per case of study at Cornell. A law library is called Prosim of the Maltin States. So my question is

[00:46:11] some people say but it wasn't a court, it was a court decision, not like an actual case. So which is that? Thank you. Yeah, you know, you see right now they are trying to erase all the progress we made. I want to say thank you to your mother for having the courage. We give your mother a round of applause for having the courage to go fight the system. I mean,

[00:46:41] it is, it is very difficult fighting the system. I was dealing with Jalen Brown, the NBA superstar. Did y'all see? He was just racially profiled in Beverly Hills and he's signed a contract for over $300 million. I mean, he's one of the most brilliant brothers. It didn't matter because when he was in Beverly Hills all they saw was another Negro and they said we didn't want you in our city.

[00:47:11] And so we have to continue to push the envelope. We have to fight the narrative and people say with this Supreme Court that it's very conservative you know, why even bother? Well, the answer I have and what Bo Lee Cooper, our hero, remembers in the book over and over again, our people had it way worse, way worse

[00:47:40] than we have it. And so we can't let them frame the narrative. We got so many more means of communication than our grandparents, then Martin Luther King and John Lewis and Fannie Lou Hamer. We got social media, we got things instantaneously that we can disseminate information. So shame on us if we don't correct the narrative

[00:48:09] when his story, no, no, it's Black History Month. It's the 100th anniversary of Black History Month. We don't need them to tell our story. We can tell our own story. And I know they're attacking Black history in the schools. They're attacking Black literature. They're attacking Black culture, Black progress with these anti-woke laws, this attack on

[00:48:38] diversity, equity, and inclusion. and they're doing things that we haven't seen in our lifetime. But our people have been able to overcome far worse than that. And I'll never forget this, Derek. When this administration started, there was a little old Black woman who came up to me and, you know, she hugged me and everything and she said, you know, Attorney Crump, you are important. You have a lot

[00:49:07] of influence. people listen to you when you talk. She said, when you go out and talk around America, I want you to remind our people that we done been through way too many thunderstorms to wear about a few little raindrops from this Trump administration. She said, you tell our people we gonna be alright. And that's how we gonna tell your grandmother's story. We tell the story. They don't get

[00:49:37] to tell the story. Fantastic. And that's why I would say Black Books Matters. Our narrative, we tell our story, especially in spaces like this. We have one more question. Alright. Yes, ma'am. Hi, my name is Leslie. Hi, Attorney Crump. Hi, Queen. So, I have 12 kids. I don't know, many of y'all didn't know that. And serve in the military. And I have a six-year-old that is well beyond his years. And he recognizes that something is terribly wrong. But as a parent,

[00:50:06] what can I say to my six-year-old? Even though we're saying, oh, no, keep going. But for him to really know and be stuck in his story, mom, I thought this is wrong. What do I tell my six-year-old, my eight-year-old, my teen-year-old, to keep them encouraged even though they know something is wrong. Leslie, I just exalt you for so many reasons. The mother of 12 beautiful prince and princesses

[00:50:34] is a testimony in and of itself. She's good friends with my wife, Janaye. But I say this, Leslie, as I say to everybody who has children, remind our children that they are beautiful as they are. They are intelligent.

[00:51:03] That they are just as capable and able and resourceful as anybody else in the world. Not just America because a big part of it, we have to think globally. It's not enough for us to think nationally anymore. We have to connect with the diaspora, people of African descent all around the world. And like Ilyasa said, they want to try to say we're the minorities. No, no. In the world,

[00:51:33] we're the majority. People of color are the majority. And so you have to tell your children that, you know, you have the DNA running through your veins from the greatest kings and queens ever known on this earth. I mean, algebra, science, astrology, all those things were invented by your ancestors despite what they tried to say. And most importantly, Leslie, what you got to tell

[00:52:02] your son and daughter every chance you get is you are the best that we have to offer for the future. you are the brightest, the most gifted, the most articulate. I mean, you got to keep pointing them over and over every day continuously because when they leave out your house, this society is going to tell them differently. And Cliff Jones and us were talking, Cliff, my investigator, he said something one time,

[00:52:32] I'm quoting him so I'm not swearing. He said, he said, you can have 99 data boys, 99 good job, but it takes one, one, just, derogatory, demeaning statement by somebody to them who's in authority

[00:53:02] like a teacher or a counselor or something that can break their spirits. I know Malcolm X, remember he talked about he wanted to be a lawyer and his white teacher told him that's not realistic for a Negro child. And he said that bloke his spirit. He never wanted to go to school again until he was in prison. And so, it's incumbent upon us to build our children

[00:53:31] up so much that they won't even give any credence because my mama and daddy told me every day how special I was. So I don't care what you say, America. I don't care what you say, judge. I don't care what you say, police officer. No, no. We are the best that we have to offer for the future and we have to say it a hundred times a day. Tell our children a hundred times how special, how great they are. Awesome, awesome.

[00:54:00] Please give it up for attorney Ben Crump. Stand to your feet. Round of applause. Fantastic. Highly empowering. We appreciate you so much. What's going on family? This is Derek Young and Ramonda Young owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode

[00:54:29] and if you enjoyed what you just heard drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for black books and we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again fam and always remember black books matter.