There's Only One Sin in Hollywood by Rasheed Newson

[00:00:00] Thanks for supporting the Reading Black Girls Podcast, hosted by four beautiful HBCU-educated Black women. This is your go-to show for unfiltered, joyful, and honest conversations about the books we love, the books we question, and the stories we'll never forget. If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to show us some love by supporting us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts.

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[00:00:40] To hit start that soon. That was aggressive. Oh. Okay. He loves doing that to us. Uh-huh.

[00:01:07] And then doesn't even edit it. It's behind the scenes. scenes. Right. He's like, ha-ha, it's fine. It's fine. No, it is. It is. It's fine. It's literally fine. It's fine. There you go. Oh. What? What? No comment. It's okay. Welcome back to another episode of the Reading Black Girls Podcast. I'm Kayla. I'm Nish. I'm Aziza.

[00:01:36] Alex is missing in action, but she is here in spirit. To be clear. And we are still the Reading Black Girls. Right. Disclaimer. She's not actually missing. Our good sis is getting married in T-60 days. Things are ramping up, and she had to go handle some things. Correct. Oh. Yeah. So, we don't want... She's not here. That's why I don't hear her.

[00:02:06] She's not present. We do know her location. Correct. Exactly. We've got eyes on each other 24-7. 365. Yeah. I check my Sims every day. Every day. Clockwork. So, you probably... If you've been listening to the last few episodes, they're like, wow. It's not just yap, yap, yap. It's yap plus a special guest. And today, we have another special guest. It's like...

[00:02:35] Oh, so exciting. We have... View the cannons. Pew, pew, pew, pew. Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. We have the... The... Rashid Newsom. To talk to us about... There's Only One Sin in Hollywood. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ooh. Welcome to the pod. We are so excited. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. So, we're going to...

[00:03:04] Before we get into it, we're going to introduce Rashid because you all... One, you're welcome for this episode in advance. No surprise. Two, another welcome because this book was phenomenal. Oh, yeah. So, just know you're in for a treat. And if you haven't picked up the book yet, please, please go and get it from your local

[00:03:30] bookstore, your indie, Amazon, Audible, Libro, all of the places. The audio is also fantastic. Very, very nice. Love the audio. Love the audio. So, just before we start, go ahead and put that on your to-do list, okay? Now, Aziza is going to take it away. Yes. And here we go. Rashid's writing career began when he was partnered up with TJ Brady, and together they

[00:03:59] were hired as staff writers on the Fox drama Lied to Me. Yes. As a writing team, Rashid and TJ have worked on Narcos, The Shy, and Shooter, among other drama series. And they are currently executive producers on Bel Air. Now, over the course of roughly two years, Rashid wrote the novel, My Government Means to Kill Me. It was a passion project that he wasn't sure would attract a publisher.

[00:04:23] However, his literary agent, Jim McCarthy of Dysol, Goerig, and Burratt saw potential in the manuscript. So did his literary editor. And he is very grateful to both of them. And his second novel, There's Only One Sin in Hollywood, was published by Flatiron in June 2026. And he was recently selected as a 2025-2026 American Library in Paris Visiting Fellow, which is very exciting. Okay!

[00:04:53] Okay, Penny! Let's just clap it up for that. Yay! Clap it up for that. And Rashid lives with his husband and their two children in Pasadena, California, which I love. Love Pasadena. We love Pasadena. Lovely place. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you. But Pasadena is... I've lived in Los Angeles now for about 24 years. And it actually has the richest African-American history of any place I've lived in.

[00:05:23] Pasadena and Altadena. Yes. They're... I mean, dating back to World War II, and these black workers came out and got these houses, and there's just been home ownership. Jackie Robinson is from Pasadena. I mean, it's... We moved out there for a school we wanted our kids to go to and for a house we fell in love with. But it's been delightful to just be in this, you know, this neighborhood with a lot of black residents. I'm like, oh.

[00:05:52] I didn't know we were out there. I love that. So I moved in. It's like a well-kept secret, you know? You don't know unless you know. Mm-hmm. Seriously. I love that. I love having my little neighborhood looking outside and the people look just like me. Thank you. Okay. It's been very, like, lovely, gratifying, fulfilling. And I hadn't... I mean, I hadn't felt that way since I was a college student in D.C.

[00:06:21] And I would just walk around D.C. like, yeah, this is my city. Period. Chocolate sitting. Hello, and that's why... That's why we're still here. That's why we're still... Yeah. Aziza... Well, all of us, we went to college. We went to Bowie State. And, like, well, Nish's now in Atlanta. I moved away to Nashville, but I came back. And Nish's coming back eventually. Yes. We're working on making it back. Oh, lovely. Because there's just nothing like the DMV. Like, I'm so sorry. And I will stand on that.

[00:06:50] So, if y'all disagree, fight me in the comments. I don't care. By the way, it did... As a young person, like, coming into my sexuality and dating, it did wonders for me. Because to be black and gay in D.C. is just like, okay, yeah, of course. And so that when I moved to L.A. and the aesthetic choices were different, I did not take it to heart. I wasn't, like, crushed that they made me... Somebody was passing me over.

[00:07:18] Because I was like, I know a place where they line up for this. Hello. Hello. And I know you're missing out. So, I wasn't... But I think if I were born into that or if that had been the scene I'd come out of, I'd have some real inferiority complexes. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And D.C. built me up. So, I was like, I know. I'm good. Yeah. And I think that's what makes the city so special. Like, I feel like we have...

[00:07:44] We had some similar experiences coming from where we came from. Like, they're all from California. I'm from Germany. We know the population. Yeah. You make it to the DMV, you're like, oh, wow. You could go your whole day and only see black people. And I was like, I've never experienced anything like that before. So, I feel that. I love it. No, it was delightful because I grew up in Indiana.

[00:08:13] And again, like, you're not... Like, you don't know your value. You don't know who's excited about you. And then you... You know, I didn't know I had dimples until I got to D.C. Nobody had mentioned them. No one had noticed or cared. And then I got to D.C. And I was like, look at you with the dimple. I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like, you learn... Someone has to teach you what other people... You know, what they find attractive about you. That has to... That information... And it doesn't reach everybody.

[00:08:43] And so, if it reaches you, you're kind of good. I love. Yeah. So, we're going to start... Before we get started, we always do... Oh, we should talk about this book. Right. I know. See, and this is the problem. This is how we end up on this pod for an hour and some change. Because we just can't help ourselves. Yeah. But... Yes. We can already tell. We're going to have us a good time today. So, we're going to get into our little speed round. And it's very, like, again, I said earlier, low stakes.

[00:09:13] Yeah. Okay. Whatever comes to mind. We're going to do a little this or that and a little just pick one. Sure. Okay. All right. Keeping it real chill. All right. Iced or hot coffee? Ice. Okay. And it don't matter the weather. Cold or hot. Right. Because Kay is always going to choose iced coffee. Here we go. Well, I mean, I'm gay and black. I have to have iced coffee. That's so real.

[00:09:40] It kind of just belongs in the hand to just do the swirl. True. Okay. Romance or critics? It's how they know I've walked into the meeting. I get that iced coffee. Oh, the... And they hear it. Here comes Rasheed. Rasheed walking in right now, y'all. Hold on a second. It's like my gavel. It's like, come to order. No, seriously. It's such a good... Like, hello. I've arrived. ...call to attention. You know? Okay. Uh, romance or thrillers? Thrillers. Okay.

[00:10:11] Okay. Which time period would you try to travel back to if you could? I know. I mean, is Wakanda an option? Like, what are you... What? That's not the first time we've gotten that answer. The days of pharaohs. The days of pharaohs. I mean, like, we have to go way back. He's a little bit? Mm-hmm. Perhaps to Nazareth.

[00:10:39] I mean, I've said in rooms before, I go, black people are not nostalgic. No. No. No. There's nothing back there. No. Nothing back there for us. We're not like, oh, the good old days of the Antebellum. Right. No. Which good old days? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. We're going to go way back. 2010s? The pyramids are under construction. That is where... That's where you're headed? Oh, my God. That's where we're going. Okay. And you know what? I'm right there with you. I can't.

[00:11:09] I'm not even mad at that. Well, by the way, I say that time and it assumes that I'm going to be a pharaoh and not someone who's out in the sun building a pyramid. Right. Right, right, right. With that stipulation. Right. And that's fine. No, we're there with you. We're right there with you. Okay. That? Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. Next question. Reading... Would you rather do a reading retreat in a big city, the mountains, or oceanside? Ooh, I think the mountains. Ooh.

[00:11:38] I like... Here's a... I like a mountain view. I do not like driving in a car along a windy mountain with a death cliff. Correct. Right. If you could just snap your finger and just... We're going to have to talk about it always. We need to talk about how I'm going to get there. But the view, I like. Yes. Okay. Okay, okay. E-book or audio book? Audio book. Correct. Okay. And what was your... Right. I don't know if she was like, it was this or that, and she's like, correct.

[00:12:08] And we said low stakes, but... I'm going to be honest. Even if you would have said e-book, I would have been like, well, yes. Either one. We do all. Okay. What was your last five-star read? It's happening now. I'm reading the original by, I believe it's Pyra Parmar. And it's a novel about Katharine Hepburn and Cary Grant coming to Hollywood in the 1930s. And neither one of them is straight.

[00:12:38] Neither one of them is straight. And it is so well done. The original is really... Oh. Historical fiction. Oh, so good. Okay. And what has been your fave book of 2026 so far? Ooh. Favorite of 2026. I'm trying to think... No, I was reading in Paris. It's the Toni Morrison book.

[00:13:04] It's the book that delves into her work. And I just know it's about Toni Morrison and I can't write. You remember the title? Is it... It's the one of her... It's like on Toni Morrison? Is it like on Toni Morrison? It's about her work as an editor, right? No. No, no. There's that one too. But now this is the one that really goes book by book through her work and does a deep dive. Okay. And it is incredible.

[00:13:33] And I've been... I listen to the audio book because it's... It's... There are parts of it you want to hit that 15 second back. Like you just want to hear that sentence again. And that idea again. And I have read Toni Morrison, but I have not presumed to think that I understood everything that was going on. Yeah. Real, real. This is a really... This is a... I'm nearly mortal. And so I'm like... Yes. You're going to have to do this several times and it will begin to...

[00:14:02] More and more will catch your eye. And so I love her work, of course. And so it's been really good because it's like... It's by someone who did like this deep dive research into her. I'm always so bad. When people ask me... Like I'm going to be on a panel today and they're going to ask me, what's your favorite book? And I'm going to do this where it becomes charades. Where I... I describe... And we're guessing. It's like this. Let's figure it out together.

[00:14:30] I become my mother telling me some movie she saw on TV. And she's like, Lonnie Anderson was in it. And it's like, it turns out it was... It was Meryl Streep. It wasn't even Lonnie Anderson. And like, you have to piece it together. And that's what I... That's what I fall back into. And I apologize. I wish... Oh, please. You gave us a map where we can... You're in good company. What's that one Morrison book where they talk about all her books? Which one is that? Exactly. And we'll find it. Computer. Computer.

[00:15:01] Quickly. Computer. Okay. Current listen. And this can be music or it can be a book. Ooh. What am I listening to? I don't... So I have two small children. So I am no longer in charge of the music in the car when we are driving them to and fro. And there is a song from like 1984 that is having a heyday called Oh Superman.

[00:15:30] And it's sort of like electronic. They just... They love it. And it's also like six minutes long. Until it gets us from where we're going all the way. And so we've been playing Oh Superman on like a loop. That is so cute. I'm gonna have to go and look that up. Okay. Would you rather be a Hollywood fixer or a Hollywood star?

[00:16:00] Well I feel I've been a Hollywood fixer. I should probably try the Hollywood star. Clock it. I think you're setting yourself up for success here. I could see it. I see the star loading. It's interesting. I mean stardom is not... I mean it's not to be wanted in and of itself. Right? Like what... Stardom is the ability to pick your projects. It's supposed to translate into artistic freedom. That's its real use. Because you are bankable at the box office.

[00:16:30] You can have the parts and the projects you've always desired. And you have more control over how you get to use your talent and display your talent. That's all they really want from it. Nobody wants to be chased at the airport. No. But that's what comes with it. And that's what people have a hard time figuring out.

[00:16:50] It's like how do I get the kind of efficacy I want over my own career versus having to give up pieces of my private life to the public? Yeah. Especially nowadays. People are so insane. They're such parasocial. And parasocial. And it's only getting worse. These people don't know you. It is wild. I mean, it's become... The pandemic, I think, also started this way.

[00:17:19] AD and Architectural Digest started showing up. People would be like, good morning, AD, and open up their doors to their house. Yeah. And I was like, you are now literally guiding people through your house. Okay. You are into your bedroom. Like, no one thinks that someone could be watching this encasing the joint. Right. Like, I mean, you're literally... I mean, it's a catalog of like, here's where we keep the good china.

[00:17:48] This piece on the wall is, you know, worth it. I'm like, this is wild. I come from a family that when we went on vacations, we would keep the garage door shut and pack the luggage in the trunk with the door closed. Because you didn't want people to know you were going on vacation. You didn't do that with the garage door open. And now it's like, hello, AD. I'm like... That's so real. All right.

[00:18:17] Last one. Yeah. Celebrity you would want to read one sin in Hollywood. Or there's only one sin in Hollywood. Who would I like to read it? I mean, Coleman Domingo comes to mind. That would be fun. Yes. He didn't have to do anything. No pressure. And just, you know, it'd just be great if he was like, oh, I'm a fan. There you go. So, Coleman, if you ever end up listening to our podcast and you hear this... For whatever reason. We do have a request. All of us here.

[00:18:47] We do. And you can do the audio book. Jelani Aladdin reads the audio book. Jelani gives a performance. Yes. Like, he is not just reading. Seriously. That man was acting. Yes. And it is so good. I love it so much. He read my first novel. And so when the second one came along, I was like, it's got to be Jelani. Because there I was like, well, we'll open auditions. I was like, we're not doing auditions. Let's just go get Jelani. I know. Don't waste these people's time. Right.

[00:19:16] Like, we're not picking them anyway. Wasting money, wasting time. Go call this man. Period. All right. So, we're going to kick it off. We do have some questions about the book. So, at this point, the people who have not read it, who are just so against spoilers that they are going to be mad at us. Okay.

[00:19:46] Go ahead and exit. You knew what you were doing when you was clicking on this episode. You know we was going to talk about the book. Right. And if you're here for a good time, go ahead and stick with us. Because we're about to get into it. Correct. Okay. Okay. Well, I guess I'll ask the first question. Okay. So, first off, I don't know what it is about a book.

[00:20:13] But a book that kind of introduces the main character as like writing the book. Like the author or telling some story that's going to go to someone else. I love that. Because it feels like a treat within a treat. A book within a book. I don't know exactly how you describe that. But I'm curious because, and this was the question I was going to ask you before. I, with Hisfic, I love Hisfic. And I always love reading the author's note. But there was no author's note at the end.

[00:20:44] And so you chose to set the book during this like golden age of Hollywood. Where there's all these Black actors who are coming into the silver screen. And we have Sidney Poitier. And I, Brain Fart, I can't remember the other actors for whatever you say. But why did you choose this golden age of Hollywood to set the book? I liked this age because it's when Black stars were beginning to disobey the studio system.

[00:21:15] You know, Lena Horne during her career in the 40s, 30s and 40s. You know, like all the other stars, you did what they told you to do. You did the movies they gave you. You sang the songs they told you to sing. The parts they handed to you. And that grip was pretty total. But by the 50s and 60s, the studio system is breaking down. Also, the civil rights movement is heating up.

[00:21:41] And Black stars found that they had to respond politically. They had to talk about it. Or they would lose their core audience. Right? Like it was, you know, Nat King Cole, I write about in the book. Got a lot of heat because his first answer to segregation is like, I don't know what y'all want me to do about it. He said, I'm just here. They hired me. I'm not in charge of their seating policy. He goes, you know. At one point, literally, there's a clip of him talking.

[00:22:10] And he says, you know, the courts can't make people do it. I don't know why people think I'd have more power than the courts. You know? And I'm just a singer. And he was with that and tried to stay out of it until some white men jumped on stage and tried to kill him. Right. And then he got a letter from the head of the NAACP saying, I hope you see now that the people who are against us make no distinction between Black people who take up the struggle and Black people who try to duck out.

[00:22:40] We are all in this whether we want to be or not. And to his credit, he got with the program. You know? He said, okay. He said, okay, I guess. I learned my lesson. I get it. Let me go ahead and pitch in. But that was happening for Black stars. And I wanted to sort of show that happening in all their lifestyle choices. You know, Xavier is not the only one.

[00:23:07] He's my fictional movie star who is a closeted gay man. He's not the only one with bedroom secrets in this book. Straight people got a lot going on, too. Okay. And that was sort of what that time was about, that we were supposed to be putting out an image of perfection. And yet we were having messy lives. Very. I loved it. Personally. I'm sorry. Okay.

[00:23:36] Let me just say, just kind of adding on to what Kayla had said. I really enjoyed the fact that we got to see, like, everything about his life from start to finish through his eyes. And I really enjoyed the dual, like, timeline situation that was going on. Like, from the beginning, I was like, oh, wait. What's happening? I said, where am I? And I had to kind of, like, run it back. But then I was like, oh, I see what we're doing.

[00:24:06] Okay. Okay. Let me get ready. My narrator, Aaron, is this Hollywood fixer who knows two extraordinary men who were both gay. And what I wanted the book to reveal is he's like, he basically realizes if I don't tell this story, no one else will be able to. Right.

[00:24:28] I am the only one who is the link between these two who could really give you the inside story, which is what he's doing in this book. But it does start with him sort of explaining how he came to Hollywood and why he came to Hollywood. Yeah. And then, of course, in the back third, you realize, oh, you told me that story so that when we run it back, I'll understand, you know, what Hollywood is doing to that story. Yes. And I loved that.

[00:24:55] I feel like you executed that so well. Thank you. Like, you really brought it full circle. I said, oh, okay. Because I'm like, oh, we're in Ohio. We're learning about his background. Oh, like your dad and your brother were trying to kill you. That was crazy. That? Yeah. Him catching on, like, just in time and having to quickly make that plan. I was like, ooh, how many other people have been in this exact situation? Like, so scary.

[00:25:26] It is, I mean, it was a time, I mean, this is just the history of our country where if you found that out about your son, if you found out your son was gay and you killed him, it was just, we're all going to look the other way. That's fine. We're going to be good with that.

[00:25:49] And I feel like that's something, like, you know, just because from studying history, but I just felt like the portrayal of that in the book was so raw and so, like, honest to what the reality was being queer back in the day. And what the consequences were, even from family. Like that, I was listening to the audio book on my way to work and I literally was like, I need to go home actually.

[00:26:19] Well, now we have, I mean, as dark as a timeline as we are in, you do have a community of people who will fight for you, at least say, like, put your name out there and go, this is wrong. They may not be able to deliver justice, but they can at least voice your name. Then nobody's coming to defend you. You know, nobody's going to be like, look, he was gay and this shouldn't have happened. They're going to be like, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah.

[00:26:49] So, can I, so just adding on to that then, my question was, with that situation at the beginning where he was truly, like, fighting for his life, what made you take on portraying this heartbreaking family dynamic so early on in the book too? I wanted to explain, I mean, I knew that Aaron was going to represent what we'll call the status quo or now respectability politics.

[00:27:19] That he was going to spin this book telling this gay star, you need to stay in the closet, you need to play by the game, you need to keep your head down and be discreet. And I thought, we got to explain why he's bought into that. And normally what I found in stories like this is the person representing the status quo is animated by self-hatred, hatred of their sexuality or their race. They're what we know as a sellout, right?

[00:27:47] They are, and they're withhold, they're holding the status quo because they're hoping that they will be rewarded for being obedient. And I didn't want Aaron to be that way. I wanted somebody who has been informed by his life experience to say, no, you don't understand. If this gets into the wrong people, you will be hurt. You could be killed.

[00:28:10] I wanted someone who was at least doing what they were doing out of what they sensed to be love and protection. I mean, to get off the book for a second, but like, you think, I think about like relatives or parents, grandparents, when, you know, when you're young and you're trying to live your life differently than they do. And they're like, you can't do X or they come with such force. Yep. And it drives you nuts. And you don't have to listen to them. Yeah. You don't have to listen to them.

[00:28:38] You know, I tell people, you don't have to, you don't have to do what they say, but hear them out only because what they're really saying is, I'm scared for you. I'm scared for you and I love you and I don't want to see you get hurt. That doesn't make the advice any better. Right. They may still be dead wrong, but you are dealing with someone. And we, I think when we're young, we experience it as you're trying to control me. Mm-hmm. And there is some of that.

[00:29:06] But it's usually animated by a real, I mean, if they didn't care, they wouldn't say nothing. I mean, I had a grandmother, if she saw somebody, she didn't like stepping in front of a bus, she wouldn't, she'd just keep her mouth shut. She wouldn't say boo. But she's coming to you with this concern. Sure.

[00:29:27] And I wanted Aaron, I think Aaron is wrong in a lot of ways, but I wanted the audience to understand where he was coming from, that he had an experience that said, if the wrong, your own blood can turn on you. Mm-hmm. Right. If they learn this about you. And that is a key to, I mean, he's still working. Yeah. He's not sensing that the world is changing. He doesn't think it's changing that much. Right.

[00:29:53] And even towards the end of the story, when he's, you know, kind of starting to be more active in the gay community and try to show up with all the younger, the younger gays. And I'm like, they're looking at you like, and what do you know? And what have you done? And how many protests were you in? And he's like, well. Literally. I marched with King. How many times did you walk? And he's, they're like, how many times? And I'm like, ooh, they're clocking you.

[00:30:23] Yeah. I mean, yeah. You understand, you know, by the end, I felt. Why? That intergenerational sort of battle. I mean, I'm 47. And at one point, one of the unions in Hollywood was sort of talking about workplace conditions and like the absurdity of some of the things we put up with. And, you know, we have these production assistants who are just out of college.

[00:30:51] And they were sitting in my office and they're like, why did you put up with that? Why did you let so-and-so talk to you that way? And I was like, at the time, I thought I was lucky to have a job in show business. Right. Or at the time, there was nobody you could tell. He yelled at everybody and you just took it. I thought my job was to not perpetuate that behavior. But you do find yourself answering to a younger generation of why did you think this was okay? Why did you think this was right?

[00:31:21] And it's hard to explain to them that it was so predominant. And then by the way, that doesn't make it right. I mean, the short answer is we were cowards and we didn't fight like we should have. And collectively, there wasn't enough unity to fight. Like, the real thing is, if I had fought, not only would I have been fired, there'd have been 10 people ready to take my job and not complain. We all collectively have to get to a point where we go, we don't want this treatment anymore.

[00:31:50] And then we talk about the treatment stopping. But we were not there yet. Timing is so important. It'll happen to them. It'll happen to them, too. It is just... Every generation. Yeah. And I try not to take it too personally. And I try not to lie to them. Just be like, yeah, no, you are absolutely right. I'm not going to defend any of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:32:19] But also, it just was what it was at the time. It was. I mean, and at the time, it looked like progress. Mm-hmm. You know? At the time, it was like I was... I mean, that I was in the positions I was in. You know, the number of times I've been... I mean, and we're talking, you know, the last 10, 20 years. It's not even like we have to go to, you know, deep in history. Right. I'd be the first black or the only black person in this room or the only gay person in this room.

[00:32:48] Happened all the time. Mm-hmm. And they were proud they let me in. They were like, look, diversity. They were like, look. See? We did it. We solved it. Does everybody remember when America thought it was post-racial? Does everybody remember? Oh, when Obama was elected? Oh, yeah. For five minutes. Racism is over. Oh, my gosh. They were like, you have got to get over it. Look at your president. Yes. He's black. Slavery. Okay. Discrimination.

[00:33:19] What? Please. Yeah. That was a rough time. Good times. I'm so proud I didn't believe it for a minute. Okay. Y'all need to get out of my face with this. I know the people that did. The people that did had to have felt silly just like six months later. Like maybe we're not as advanced as we thought. Correct. And actually we're regressing. Right. There's more work to be done. Rapidly.

[00:33:50] Please. Just reminding the clock. We can't even get into that negativity today. You're right. Right. Now, kind of along the same lines is when Aaron left the house after surviving an attempted murder on him. As soon as he left, I was like, he's got nowhere to go. I said, he got to go to the military. And I was right. Because that's, that is just, that's just what, it's an outlet.

[00:34:18] And so war often deeply affects soldiers in both ways that are seen and unseen. And then if you add in the racism and discrimination at that time, it's a lot going on. So can you share how you feel war impacted both Horace and Aaron? Oh, yeah. Well, first I want to talk about like, even the military, Aaron's idea of the military he got from Hollywood. Right?

[00:34:46] Like that's, the military in Hollywood did a really good propaganda game. He just thought like, this is gonna, I'm gonna see the world. You know, I mean, Sinbad used to have his comedy routine. He said he joined the, he joined the army to see the world and they sent him to Wichita. He was like, what the hell is this?

[00:35:08] So I wanted, I wanted him to join the military, join the Navy and have an experience that ran counter to what he'd been told back home. Which again was like, hey, we've integrated the armed forces. It's cool here. We don't have a race problem in the military. And he gets there and he's like, this is some bullshit. All they do is lie.

[00:35:34] But you signed the contract and you are thousands away from home and you find yourself in the belly of a ship. And if you don't, you know, so he, I wanted to start there, which is like just that propaganda machine, that idea that the military in Hollywood had this, this way of sort of just shaping what you even thought about your, your fighting men and the war.

[00:35:53] And then I also in the war wanted to show that never, never for one moment does Aaron worry about the strategic, like, are we winning the war writ large? Never once. You know, now that you mention it. Yeah, you're right. Are we concerned about that at all? That was not his concern. Are we okay on this ship? Is my man coming back to me? Okay. Period. Period. Really.

[00:36:23] I got to stay and watch. You know, I mean, you know, that's the thing. People in war talk about like, you know, if you're back home, you probably have a better picture reading the newspaper of what's going on than they do. They go, we don't know. We just, we're in our spot doing our thing. And they tell us just worry about the person to your left and your right. And so that's what he's doing. And he's falling in love with the person to his left. And so that adds another complication. For Horace, what I think happened in the war, and this is, this is a part of it that I thought, oh, you don't hear this story so much.

[00:36:53] Because he was a fighter pilot and because he was an ace fighter pilot and so lucky and never hurt, I think he felt chosen. He felt chosen by the gods. He felt what stars often feel, which is you have defied such astronomical odds to get into this place you're now standing.

[00:37:17] You would be forgiven if you assumed that this luck would never leave you, that this is part of your providence. This is part of who you are. And so you don't fear the odds the way other people do. You've been defying the odds for these so many years. Why would you hesitate to take another risk? And I think Horace and Xavier both have that.

[00:37:47] You can lose sense of the danger around you. One of the things I learned in research was a lot of these, because you start going, what happened to this person who was an ace pilot? These men almost all, they just by a shocking percentage die in airplane crashes. They're like, the war is over. But they go to air shows or they become test pilots.

[00:38:16] They can't stop. They keep rolling that dice until it comes up snake eyes. And it's wild the number of them who you survived a war. And you go, well, why would they? And I'm sure because I'm like, well, after the war, they probably thought this is much, much safer. Nobody's shooting at me. Right. Right. Exactly. I mean, right. But back in the day, planes failed a lot.

[00:38:43] And, you know, and so, but I understand that after a while, if you are a, there's a saying like, never take financial advice from a lottery winner. Right. This person has gotten their money in such an extraordinary way. We not even the same. And they look at you like, honey, just keep playing your numbers. You're going to be fine. And you're like, no. No. That's a lottery winner talking.

[00:39:11] I better find something that maybe is a little steadier. But that's, that's what some life experiences are. If you're a movie star, you're a war hero. You have had such extraordinary luck. You have had such extraordinary luck that your sense of a risk is not, is no longer tied to what a rational person would do. Absolutely. And he, yeah. He portrayed that. He said, uh-uh. Uh-uh.

[00:39:41] After this, we're going Hollywood and I'm going to have all the people fighting over my contract. And then they were going to say my name across the, the, the States. It was, I'm sorry. I lived. I saw it. Okay. It was going to happen. Right. She said, I saw it in the cowrie shells. Okay. You know what? I'm not going to argue with your mama. You're right. Well, I mean, like, yeah. And his experience has been, I have been battling people in the sky and I always came home. Right.

[00:40:10] Like, what would make you, I mean, people, I always, people talk about Hollywood stars and they go, do they think the rules don't apply to them? And I go, yeah. Actually. Well. Because a lot of the times they don't. It doesn't. Right. Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah. I mean, a lot of people come out here to do this and it does not work for them. So when it does happen for you, you, and, and, and a lot of, by the way, a lot of people, they have a hard time just saying, I got lucky.

[00:40:38] And so they have to place it somewhere. And the two places they normally place it is, I personally am great and I manifested this. And the other is, God gave this to me. This is undained from high. Either one of them, the thought is, I have control over it. If it came from me, I have control over it. If it came from God, I just got to keep praying. If it's luck, that makes you nervous. You know?

[00:41:07] Because if it's luck, luck can turn. Luck can turn. And nobody, and that's harder, that's harder to wake up with every day is this idea of like, it came and it could go. But that's typically what it does. Yeah. At any point, at some point it'll run out. Unfortunately. Some people make it across the gauntlet. Right. Some people are that lucky. Are you that lucky?

[00:41:37] I mean, I talk about my line of business. I have seen so many people who literally come down and they're like, I'm going to change the game of Hollywood. I am the new way. I am the light. I am the, I'm like, okay. This person thinks they're the Messiah. And I'm like, you know, I'm always like, who am I to say? Let's go down to the river and let's see if you walk on water. Let's go, let's go try it out. That's the only way you'll find out. Put it to the test. They've all drowned. You know? They've all drowned. I can report.

[00:42:07] No Messiah has been found yet. I have been doing this for 20 something years. It turns out it's a business. It turns out you are not the way. There's not an unlike. Sorry. Learn to operate in this system. Thank you. Yeah. You know, they do say you got to play the game. Hello. Well, and that's, and it's, it's tough. It's again, it's always tough.

[00:42:34] It's almost impossible to talk someone out of that because they'll tell you a life story in which they have defied incredible odds. And again, they assume that that is a function of how they are living and something that they can control. A word. Well, speaking of control, I was so fascinated by how Aaron kind of got his start as a Hollywood fixer.

[00:43:03] Like studio head coming up, like, Hey, I need you to go over to the black cast. See what the old dude's doing over there. So Aaron was such an interesting character because he kind of deals like throughout the book with many different dualities. Like he's kind of behind the scenes, but he's also being watched, you know, he's gay, but he wants to be portrayed as a heterosexual man with a wife because that's how you're accepted and with everybody else. Right.

[00:43:30] So how was it writing about this dual personhood of Aaron and just being able to, you know, portray both sides of who he was? It's part of what I thought made him a fun character to write because he's got to explain himself. He knows he's gay. Why are you marrying this woman? And he's got to lay out his. Listen, I was stressed.

[00:43:59] He's got to lay out his case and his case is interesting. I mean, like, I'm like, oh, he basically is like, I know what you're thinking. You're going, well, you don't have any sexually interest in her. But he kind of lays it out like, well, there's more to a marriage than sexual interest. You know, we genuinely like each other. I like your family. They love me. They love me.

[00:44:22] I mean, this is, this is, it was, it was more stark then, but I don't know that this is, I still say this is a reality to some extent now. As a woman, she's looking at this man, she's going, this man doesn't lay a hand on me. He doesn't gamble the money away. He doesn't have a drinking problem. He's got a steady job. He's a provider. He's not trying to rule over me. There's a lot to be had.

[00:44:48] And she was in a particular situation with Kimberly where she can't leave her house until she gets married. Right. Yes. I got to get out of here. And she's, and she is, she is experiencing like physical disabilities that also don't make her marriage prospects that great. And so, I mean, he, he laid those cards out. I didn't want something where he was lying to this woman and she was clueless. Yeah.

[00:45:14] Lavender marriages, as it's called, happened all the time then. And some of them are still happening now. Okay. It's a time where you sit down and you go, let's talk about this. I'm not going to embarrass you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we can make this work.

[00:45:57] Mm-hmm. Like, that's what it was. Right. Well, and people think that it was only the aristocrats who married for like business. Like, I mean, again, like two, three generations ago, it would not, even in the black communities, it would be like, oh no, we're not messing with him because you know what his people are like. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is not a family we want in our family. Yep. So I don't care how you feel about him.

[00:46:27] He can be cute. He knows how to dance. No. He was putting your ear. Mm-hmm. Not going to happen. Or how about this? I mean, like, I mean, we're Baptists. He's Catholic. I don't see how this is going to work. Yeah. Good point. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. And they did go to the same church. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's how they met. And I feel like that helped in Aaron and his wife coming together.

[00:46:54] I do wish that he had told her, but he was so deep in the closet that him not sharing that secret with her, I was like. He does tell her before the marriage. He does. And he does. Before the wedding. Before the wedding. That stressed me out so bad. I was like, are you about to tell her for real? He wasn't completely honest. No. Oh, no. Oh, no. No, that would not work. That wouldn't work. Oh, no, no, no. If she knew all that. Right. But also. He was right not to.

[00:47:24] I mean, I would argue that almost everybody has information that you do not drop on the first date. Correct. You don't know. Oh, by the way, there's a history of addiction in my family. There are mental health problems on my mama's side. You don't do this on the first date. Right? We're going to be together. We got another locked in already. And then. And then when they're attached to you. He dropped the bone. I don't know. And it's like. That's how dating goes.

[00:47:53] But you let people in bit by bit. I mean, like. Yeah. His secret is not one that we is as common today as it was. But I'm like, you know. That's how it happens. I mean, by the way, I just also wanted to get to, like. Like, they were pressuring him to have Horace come to the wedding. And like that. Okay. That was like. Him trying to get rid of that invite. Oh, my gosh. And trying to. He said, I don't know how I'm about to get it. They spent all night.

[00:48:20] I was like, Erin, you've got to figure out something. I don't know how he was going to figure it out. But I did not think he was going to tell Kimberly. Yeah, me and Horace were hunching. I didn't think he was going to say that. I think he. Okay. I felt like he was like. I got to go for broke here. And his back. He felt like his back was against the wall.

[00:48:50] Like, I'm just going to. It was. He had no other options. Yeah. Yeah. His back was against the wall a few times. A lot of the times. And I was stressed. Every single time. I was like, oh, my God. I said, Erin, how are we going to get ourselves out of this mess? But hey. He figured out a way though. Every time. Because he's a fixer. Because he's a fixer. And speaking of mess and getting himself out of pickles.

[00:49:19] There was a line in the book. I wrote it down. I rewound it. I paused it. I replayed it. I wrote it down. Said, I was my unacknowledged lover's public laughing stock. I wish I wasn't in the picture at all. That tore me up. It tore me up. And so I wanted to know, how did it feel depicting Black queerness from that space of like the shadows?

[00:49:49] But it's trying to come into the light. Well, I wanted, I mean, one of the things I wanted to do in that scene was like they're doing the Hollywood movie about Horace's life finally. And Xavier is starring in it. I wanted to look at that and go, how would they straight watch this? Like, how would they? And you know that there has to be some art given to the errant character. And it's not going to be a love story.

[00:50:19] Oh, I know. Comic relief. And so now he has to stand there and watch himself portrayed as a joke. And it should hurt because he's, you know, he signed off on this. That's another thing that happens in Hollywood. Yeah. You, you, you've sold your life rights. You've sold whatever. You've let, you've given them the invitation because you wanted to see it on screen. And I mean, people get really mad even now.

[00:50:45] I know there's an author who's like just jumped off a project because she was like, this is not the way I wanted it to be. And I was like, oh, you're new to town. Yeah. I mean, you have to be very, I tell people all the time, everybody thinks they want to get their books sold. And I need to be careful about who you sell this stuff to. Because once you do that, you're just, you're going to be sitting in the seats like everybody else eating popcorn. You don't get it.

[00:51:13] You don't, you're just not going to, you are not going to have the deal to have the say you think you, you can have. And this actually, there was, I was on a show. I was, oh, like I say, it was on Lie to Me. It's my first show. And they wrote an episode, there was an episode that was written. I love that show. It was fun. I had, I was on it for two seasons, had fun. It's my, it taught me a lot.

[00:51:39] Another writer wrote an episode in which they placed a character named Rashid in the script. And I'm reading that week's script and it's Rashid and he is like gregarious and all, it's me. It's me. Not the fucking play was about you. The play is about us. Oh my God. This, this, I was like, oh my God. He's put me in the script and I thought this is kind of funny. And everybody, and everybody's like, oh, I saw you were in the, at the end of act three, he blew him up.

[00:52:09] Oh. I can go show you the episode. He blew him up. Killed him. Actually, I will be looking for the episode. Cause huh? And I thought to myself, I don't think he likes me. What's beef? No, you actually need to, you need to explain yourself. Hey, what's this? Years later when I became a showrunner, I was even more appalled. Cause I was like, I would never have let one of my writers do this to another writer.

[00:52:39] Like this was so wrong, wrong, wrong. Like this should never have gotten to me in this form, but it did. And I'm like just reading along and I'm like, oh, oh, this was, this was fun until it wasn't fun. Right. Cause what is that about? Like. He killed her. She, I just went to, I did go to my, I went to, I went to one of my friends who was in casting. I could just make him, just cast somebody beautiful.

[00:53:09] You know, I'm going to die. This is going to happen to me. Right. I want to be played by somebody gorgeous. That's fair. But yeah, no, that, that, I love that, that realization that once the myth gets going, once the movie gets going, you, you have, you, what, you know the truth and you can just, you just stand there with it. And I think that happens in news cycles. I think that happens in, I think it happens to all of us.

[00:53:37] When you watch gossip or the story take hold and you know the truth and nobody wants to hear it from you anymore. They've all decided that this is what they're going to believe. And this is what they're going to go with. It's rough. Oh yeah. Well, and nowadays it moves so fast. It's like one minute. So-and-so just left their wife and now it's actually, he left the wife. He did this and that, and he's a drug addict. Like what? I mean, that's what happened to Xavier.

[00:54:06] Like they were, I was like, oh, that happened quick. That happened quick. Like. Oof. And that made me so bad. I mean, like, I mean, there are certain things that are, that are sort of inspirations for this. I mean, like, you know, the death of Marvin Gaye, the death of Sam Cooke. That like, what happened down here again? Like you're telling you, like you hear the story and you're like, I got questions. I still have more questions.

[00:54:36] Like, why did his father feel like he had to shoot Marvin Gaye? What was going on there? Why was Sam Cooke at this hotel? Like they're just, it feels like sometimes we're not being told the full story. For whatever reason. And, and yet a story needs to be packaged. And so you have this unsatisfactory feeling where they kind of go, this is the official version. Love it or not.

[00:55:04] And they just want to move on. And, and most of the time that story holds, they win. That, that's how it, that's how it goes down. Right. So then as you were kind of looking for not inspiration, but I'm sure you did extensive research just by the names that were dropped. The name drops. The film. The movie drops. The film. I literally was like, hold on. Let me get my pen and paper. I was like, well, let's see. I have some research I need to do as well. How's this tying into the story? I loved, I loved.

[00:55:34] Why did he mention this? Okay. So I loved, I have a hyper fixation on history. And what it dawned on me was like, I needed to create a fictional movie studio that had to have its own history, its own lane. It needed to make its own movies so that Xavier could have a fuller career. But I also didn't want to disturb the movie history as we knew it.

[00:55:58] So there were times, so I was like, if I'm going to put Eartha Kitt in this film with him, I had to make sure that Eartha Kitt was technically available. Because my fear is that someday on Reddit, somebody will go, Eartha Kitt couldn't have been in this movie. She was making this movie, you know. I mean, there was a funeral where I wanted Sidney Poitier. And he was filming like, guess who's coming to dinner? And I was like, it would be great.

[00:56:25] Like, it would be great if I could have Sidney here to give like the eulogy. But I'm like, the way this timeline is working, he's not going to be available. Like, maybe he could pay for a coffin or something. And I really did hold to that. I mean, I originally wanted Eartha Kitt to be his like beard and bestie because Eartha Kitt had been friends with James Dean. And she knew James Dean was queer. And so I said, oh, she'll be perfect for this.

[00:56:53] But her dates did not line up to when I wanted to start the book. And there was Diane Carroll. Right. And Diane Carroll turned out to be like. She was Jager. And great. And wonderful. I mean, like, I've been on book tour now since June. And the thing about Diane Carroll is everybody has a connection into her. Like, there are people who remember Julia. There are people who remember her on Dynasty. There are people who remember her as Whitley's mother on A Different World.

[00:57:22] And there are people who are like, oh, she's Isaiah Washington's mama from Grey's Anatomy. Like, that spread is phenomenal. And so she was great. But originally, it wasn't that I thought of her first. It's as you're trying to weave these people into history, she was the easiest sort of needle the thread. And so I was like, all right, let's go with her. But I am scrupulous about it.

[00:57:50] I really try not to bump against what was happening. That's impressive. Because, listen, if Eartha would have pulled up me, I would have just been, because I'm here for a good time. Like, I'm like, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But the Reddit thread, that's so real. Because someone, somewhere will be that contrarian who just can't help themselves. This doesn't make any sense. And it's like, it's historical fiction. Fiction. Liberties could be taken.

[00:58:20] But I love that you are. I really try to, yeah, get it in there. The truest. I mean, my first book had footnotes. My government needs to kill me had footnotes in it. And I lived in fear that someone would write a negative review with footnotes reading me for everything I got wrong about that time period. It did not happen. No. It didn't happen. But that's what I'm talking about. Because, no. But you can always, you know, I'm one person.

[00:58:49] Like, I mean, I don't have a fact-checking system here. Right? Like, it's me. Right. And I try to be scrupulous, but you, you know, and I just, I do. Here's what I did. Here's what did happen in the first book. In the first book, I described Bayard Rustin at a bathhouse. And he was, like, in his 70s. And I was like, you know, he's a little flabby. Because I didn't know. What am I? I see him in suits. I'm guessing he's a 70-year-old man.

[00:59:15] His lover came forward to contact me and sent me a picture of Bayard Rustin at the beach with his shirt off in his 70s. And he's like, my man kept it tight. Right? Oh! And he was like, he was not. And you guys are left with record reflects. You better ride for your man. If you're going to ride about my man, measure is accurate. Be accurate. I'm screaming. I mean, to one, to the one, I was like, if this had been in the archives, I would have gotten it.

[00:59:44] You know, this is why you need to put stuff in the archives. See? I did not have this photo. I did not have this reference available to me. Because we would have known that. In the paperback, we put a correction in the book. Okay. That nobody was not. Upon review. He was not. Upon further review. He was still a sight to behold. I mean. That is hilarious. Yeah. So.

[01:00:15] So. There were so many parts to this book that just. I feel like my jaw was on the floor, to be honest. We're still kind of talking a little bit more about some of your research. Some of the things that you probably had to look into just to make sure that now that we know that you are a historical truest. And you are cross-referencing. Which we appreciate. Okay. And we also love.

[01:00:45] Like us personally. We love like that Hollywood era. That. And we were obsessed with that Netflix show. I think it was called Hollywood. It was called Hollywood. They cut it after like the first season. Was it difficult for you to collect and use some of this research in your storyline? Like how did you narrow down what you wanted to include? Versus what you were like, actually, we don't need this.

[01:01:14] It is. I mean, I talk about getting research drunk where you just try to put everything you learn. Like you're just trying to tell everybody everything you've learned in your research and they do not want that. Mm-hmm. I try to pick some tent poles. I knew that it was all going to culminate at the Black Cat Raid. That was a real event. And so that was, I knew I wanted that. And so I was almost backing up from there. Some things you just find by happenstance.

[01:01:41] I, they've digitized like all of Jet Magazine and a lot of Ebony. And so you can just go through page by page. And I love it because, and there's almost no place like this in the media anymore where, especially Jet, where it was, we have an interview with the president of the NAACP. NAACP. Also, Reverend So-and-so in Mobile, Alabama is celebrating his 30th anniversary on the pulpit.

[01:02:08] I mean, it was like a newsletter of high and low culture given equal weight. And so I flipped through there and I found the event that happened when Matt King Cole threw a W-TOP ball for his daughter Carol and the president came. I was like, well, that's going in the book. Like, I mean. My jaw was on the ground. That was one of those moments. That's, I mean. And that's kind of, I mean, like, it's kind of great for me because I'm like, it happened.

[01:02:37] Like, I'm like, I'm looking at the photo and so that's great. It also, those moments also sort of ground everything else I'm doing. Because you're going, we live in a world where this happens, where this and that and these things. And so it doesn't make anything I'm doing by comparison. And seem stick out too much. And so I, that's how I typically try to use history. And I try to stay on the thread.

[01:03:05] I do end up, there are all sorts of things I think are going to happen in the book. I thought I was going to have a nudist party at Anthony Perkins' house in Palm Springs. I wrote it. I cut it. You know, you, I wanted to sort of think about when, when did I want, how much did I want to cover Xavier being at the civil rights sort of movement? Like on marches. That sort of thing.

[01:03:34] I mean, they were all sort of, I think at one point, at one point I was going to have him have an affair with a secret service agent. Like it was, you just do all kinds. I'm screaming. I love that. And you were like, okay, no. Let me, let me reign it in. But let me tell you, for the people who are just listening to this episode and you didn't read the book, know that there are a lot of scenes in that book where you're just going to be like, wait a minute.

[01:04:04] Where are we? Yeah, there were some of them. We're in the airport. How do we go here? We're in the park. Who's next to me? Who is this? And I loved, like, I was like, I almost didn't even, I was like the whole time. Well, and the thing I want the reader to realize. Oh yeah. And the thing I want the reader to feel is that they can no longer separate the events like that that are real and the events like that that I have made up. And that they should stop trying. Just go ahead and go with it. Just immersed into the story 100%.

[01:04:33] Because in my head I was like, this all happened. No, you could not tell me that Xavier wasn't an actual actor. He was. Right. No, I want, I mean, my thought was like, how do I write this? It's like, what if this were a real actor you just hadn't heard of? Because he had died so long ago and you just didn't. Right. You just didn't know who it was. And I thought, oh, this will be.

[01:04:58] And so that was, I mean, so that was, my thing was like, you can't, I can't just say, oh, he was in this movie and make up a title. What's the synopsis of the movie? Who are the co-stars? Who, you know, how would that be? That be adding to his climb up the ranks is, you know. And so I wanted, I mean, all of that became necessary to sort of give it this, this verisimilitude that I hope permeates the book.

[01:05:26] Oh, I'd say it's success. It absolutely did. It absolutely did. Which makes me curious, in your own reading, is there anything that you wanted to see more of in queer literature, either growing up or even now, especially as a contributor?

[01:05:46] Well, I think we have entered the next stage of queer lit, which is we don't need characters who are always a credit to the community. Absolutely. That they either have to be saints or victims who are perfect and unimpeachable.

[01:06:11] A lot of queer literature has gone out of its way in the past to be quite chaste because it didn't want to upset the sensibility of straight readers. Yeah. And it wanted to sort of bring you a queer person who had straight conservative politics, you know, who would almost go out of their way to say, I'm not like those gay people screwing each other's brains out down at the club.

[01:06:39] I prefer to stay home with a good book and a cup of Ovaltine. And I'm like, okay. There are people who are like that. Not Ovaltine! There are people who are like that, and that's a legitimate way to live. But I can hear the judgment. Like, this person is being positioned and primed this way as a condemnation. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:07:04] You're still a person worthy of respect and rights, even if you are promiscuous. Like, that's fine. Right. So I want it. I think we're getting there where you're seeing more stories like that. And I'm happy to do my part of sort of just, you know, that, you know, I don't, I mean, not to, I'm homosexual.

[01:07:33] I can't speak to what the heterosexual is doing. What part of the fun of homosexuality is that we have sex. That is, it's not an incidental part of our lives. It's not incidental. It is, it's right there. And so I enjoy, like, bringing that to life.

[01:07:57] Also, I think it's sort of wild that when you talk about nonfiction, they kind of say, well, we can't center stories on queer people of color because we don't have any, we don't have any primary documents. We don't have any diaries or letters. And I'm like, well, you know why you don't. You know why you don't have that. There's a reason. Because the racism and homophobia, like, they would not have written that down. And so they're like, oh, well, we can't put you in the story. And so historical fiction gives me this opportunity to go, oh, no, we're going to be in the story.

[01:08:27] Because there's enough evidence of us being there. And it takes a little bit of empathetic imagination to fill in the blanks. Yeah. Like, let's go. Right. We were there anyways. So this is what it might have looked like. I love that. I love that. So we know what the biggest sin in Hollywood is. What's the second biggest sin in Hollywood? I thought about this.

[01:08:56] I thought about having someone do this. The second biggest sin in Hollywood is not having talent. There are people. The industry has many times taken someone beautiful or taken somebody with one talent and tried to put them in another position. And it really is unforgivable.

[01:09:19] People, without naming any names, I can think of two or three huge singers, female singers, who when they're on stage with that mic in their hand, they rule. Somehow you put them in front of that camera and it does not translate. And they have time. I mean, and I've seen white ones try it. I've seen black ones try it. It just... With all our Hollywood magic, we can't do anything about it. You don't have it.

[01:09:49] You don't have this talent. Don't have it. And that's okay. But it cannot be glossed over. Like, we can... There's a lot of things we can sort of make believe and we can do for you. If you don't have talent, we can't fabricate a career out of that. And that's a word.

[01:10:17] They're not training them like they did on Disney. That's why. Hello. Disney, they were like, you got to act. You got to sing. You got to dance. Yeah, triple dance. You got to be charismatic. Yes. You got to be able to be live. They're not making them like that. Well, okay. So my argument would be for why it's hard for some of the singers is in their world, they are completely in control. That fan is where they said it's going to be.

[01:10:47] That light is where they said it's going to be. The makeup... Like, they have complete control. And you have to surrender that. When you come to a soundstage. You have to trust that they're telling you it's going... And I don't think you can ever see them relax. They're not in the scene because they are worried about that light. And you actually have to be in the scene and let the lighting person do what they're doing. And they can't surrender it.

[01:11:19] You know what? That's real. That's that whole circle of control thing. And I feel like that's everybody. Like, when you're out of your element, sometimes it's going to go either really great and you're going to step it up. Or it's just not meant for you. And that's okay. Yeah. Well, it's also hard to tell somebody who has become a phenomenal success exerting that control. They're like, why would... Are you crazy? Why would I give that up? You know? But that's not how this...

[01:11:47] I mean, by the way, the difference between working for television and film and working for books is... Like, I mean, talk about control. In television, as the showrunner, you are... I mean, unless the network steps in and overrules you, you are the final word day to day on what we're going to be doing. And boy, that feels really good. That's some nice control. Power. I mean, you know. And then my...

[01:12:16] You really run in me. My writing partner and I wrote a couple movies and they came back to us. They go, oh, we took this scene out. We need you guys to write another scene. And I was like, when did I take that scene out? Like, nobody called me. I haven't. Like, you realize, oh, this has just been done and you're being told what you need to do next. When you are not in control. And then you write a book. And that's like, oh, wait a minute. No one can tell you nothing.

[01:12:45] Like, this is your book from start to finish. I mean, even on television, I have to bow to time and money. They go, look, we just... We can't. We just come and think of something else. Right. With a book, you know, you want Eartha Kitt. You have Eartha Kitt. She is... Everybody can kind of... So, like... But navigating those spaces takes a lot of flexibility on my part. Not everybody's flexible.

[01:13:16] Okay. So I'm curious. I've always wanted to ask an author this and I don't know why I haven't. But do you ever go back and read and or listen to your own books? Yeah, I almost have to. So what happens... I mean, you... I finish the book and then it's like a year before the book comes out. And I've moved on in my life. I've probably started another book, other project. And, you know, you just...

[01:13:43] I have to reread the book because I'm like, I'm about to go talk about this thing and I better remember... I mean, it's going to look like I don't... I didn't like it. I need to know who these characters are. I need to know every turn. And I also need to... I mean, I need to rewrite the... Read the book because, like, there are things I might remember that were in the book and then came out of the book. So I have to reread the book when it comes... Before it comes out and I start reading it. And I'm going to have to do it again. The paperback comes out next June. I'm writing the third novel now.

[01:14:12] And I'm going to have to go back out on the road and do the paperback and I'm going to reread that because I'm not going to be able to have that at my fingertips. Right. Okay. And that's... Yeah, that's fair. Because, you know, the people are going to show up to the talk and they will have freshly read it and something stood out and they will be... And they'll have their notes. Just like we were today. You said this on this page. What did you mean by that? Right. They're going to be ready for you.

[01:14:43] So speaking of your next, I do have a question then. Sure. And you... If... Just tell us what you can. What do you have planned for your next book? And even if it's just a theme or the... No, yeah. Give us a little something. What I want readers to catch on to, and I think they will, is I pick a new city and a new decade to tell you what the Black queer people are doing.

[01:15:11] And for the new book, I'm in the 1970s in the Bay Area. Yeah. Everybody knows about the Castro, which is wonderful. Oh, yeah. And everybody knows about the Castro. I also want to tell you about West Oakland. Because that was like... That was like the Harlem of the West. And to have those two worlds to play in is a lot of fun.

[01:15:34] They're also, at this time in the Bay Area, the 70s, there were no less than half a dozen active serial killers. Oh. It was the... And the Zodiac is the most famous, but he was not the only one. Oh. Oh. And so I'm in that era. I get to be like... Okay. What is it like... Another thriller? Got it. We're exhibiting... Well, we're having... We're exhibiting... You know, like...

[01:16:03] This is pre-AIDS, post-60s. So it's like... This feels great. Like, we're out dancing. You're having a time. We're all can't touch us. But you go home with the wrong man. Oh, my gosh. You go home with the wrong man, and it's over. Oh, my God. And now the fun's over. Yeah. So... Oh, my gosh. Are 70s... Oh, I'm scared. In my mind, the 70s were only 30 years ago, but it's like... No, that was like 50 years ago. Oh, shoot.

[01:16:32] That was like 50 years ago. Yeah. I don't like that. I don't like that. In my mind, the 70s is also 30 years. Uh-huh. Well, by the way, I mean, I'm doing research on a... Just preliminary research on a fourth book that is set in 1911. And somebody was like, oh, are you leaving historical fiction? I'm like, honey, that's historical fiction. That's... That's still historical fiction.

[01:16:58] Anything more than 30 years ago is historical fiction. It's like why the music you grew up with is now on the classic hip-hop station. Like, anything over 30 years ago, it's in that bend now. And so 1992 is fair game. Oh, that kind of made my stomach hurt. As 1990s babies, that is... Welcome.

[01:17:26] That's something to reckon with, this lovely Saturday morning. Time comes for all of us. Comes for all of us. Yeah, it does. Boy, does it. It does. And it's true. Because, you know, sometimes we look at the younger generation. And we're like in our 30s. And we're like, oh my. Like, we're getting old. Is this what we looked like when we were in our 20s? And like... Couldn't have been. No way. But way. But actually... Okay. Okay.

[01:17:55] So I just have... Oh. You want to go? I'll go. I'll go. Okay. Go ahead, Kayla. Because we're talking about historical fiction. And I always... I feel like we go year after year. We're looking at, okay, what's coming out next year? What's coming up? Da-da-da-da-da. And 2026 was such a good year for historical fiction. Victoria Christopher Murray, Rashonda Tate, Ashton Lattimore, Tiffany L. Warren, Vanessa

[01:18:19] Miller, Kayla Hardy, Brianne, Baker, Nikesha Ellis, Williams, Sadiqa Johnson, and you. I don't know. I feel like you guys had a group chat and planned this. Because that's kind of great for it to all happen at the same time. Yeah. Seriously. So what's it... I'm curious because so many of these authors have explored niche Black history that we've never heard of or something that's forgotten. So what's it like to produce a book within such great company?

[01:18:49] Well, I mean, I think it helps all of us, right? Like, I love that there's now this, like, shelf and that we're in, you know, our books are in conversation with each other. And, you know, some of the people who cross through one story can end up in another. Like, you know, the Hattie McDaniel book is like, oh, this is great. This is wonderful. And so I'm all for it.

[01:19:18] I think it's a wonderful place for us to expand the literature. And don't get me wrong. Plenty of contemporary stories that need to be told and are being told. But I do like correcting what I think of as the historical imagination of this country. This idea... I mean, one of the things that oppression likes to do is try to convince you that you have no history. That you have contributed nothing of note. I like that. Nothing worth writing down.

[01:19:48] You see them doing it to the trans community. One of the things they're like, oh, this just started. I'm like, no, no, no, no. There have always been trans people. Always. Always. And that's what you can do when you start writing these books in historical fiction is being like, no, no, no. Let me tell you a story about how we would have existed. Even though we don't have all our papers in order, we can still be part of the narrative and will be part of the narrative. Absolutely.

[01:20:15] And I think that no matter what, getting those stories out and written and somewhere is the most important. Like, I don't want to hear anything of any historical fiction slander because realistically, we, everybody knows somebody where this story would be relevant. And that's just what it is. I'm also just sort of wild that nonfiction doesn't get called out more. Like, you'll read nonfiction books about the founding fathers.

[01:20:44] And they're having like full-blown conversations on the porch. And I'm like, who recorded any of this? And they like to take letters. Well, they like to take letters and turn letters into dialogue. And I'm like, okay, that's interesting. But like, this talk never happened. Right. The liberties that are being taken. And they get them. And still put under nonfiction. Right.

[01:21:13] But we know. If you know, you know. Yeah. We know what that's about. So then I have one last question. And this is just because we have to ask and we're in Hollywood. So who would you cast if this was adapted into a real movie? And you did have a little bit of that control. You have complete control. You have complete control. Who are we casting? Well, I was. I mean, I would start with Jelani Aladdin.

[01:21:41] And he could have any part he wanted. He could be Aaron. Or he could be Xavier. Oh, I love that. Yes. He could play. He could play either one of those. Hmm. Ooh. Trying to think. I mean, like, there's so many good parts. I mean, I think Coleman Domingo gets to be Sidney Poitier. I think that feels. That feels. That feels right. That feels right. I mean.

[01:22:11] I mean, we're going to. We're doing. I can have anybody. I mean. Anybody. Anybody. Zendaya as Diane Carroll. Could be. Oh. Ooh. Love. Okay. That could be. That could be interesting. That's fun. Mm-hmm. So. But here's. But here's the thing. I will. I mean. And I. And I would. I mean, some adaptation would be lovely. I'm. I want to make it. I'm very happy with the book as a book.

[01:22:41] And I have worked in Hollywood enough to know. That in many ways. It would probably be a little heartbreaking. The. The. Adaptations are rough. And you would be. I would be very lucky. To get through it cleanly. I mean. I've now. Worked on. Like more than 150 episodes of television. Written like 30 something episode. Co-written 37 episodes of them. And all this stuff. And there are maybe two episodes. Where I could be like. Oh.

[01:23:10] That went exactly like I wanted it. Two out of like a hundred and something. You know. Because. Yeah. It is a business of compromise. It is a collaborative art. And you cannot have your way. The actor is not always going to say the line. The way you want it. The director is not going to cut it. The way you want it. You're not going to have enough time. Or money. Or this person isn't available. And. And so. It can be. Tough. To watch some of the stuff again. Because that's what you're still remembering.

[01:23:40] I'm hoping I get old enough. I just forget. And I can watch it. But. Typically. Typically speaking. You wish you had more time. More than anything else. I mean. That's what I love about the book. The book takes so long. That by the time the book comes out. I am. Perfectly happy with the book. Every word is exactly where I want it. Because I've had. So many chances to go over it. And get it there. The number of times I've been sitting in post. On an episode. And been like. Damn.

[01:24:09] I know what we should have done here. Like. It hits you. About what would make this ten times better. But the actor's gone back to New York. The set's been torn down. And there's no redo. Fair. Well. Even if. It does end up making it to the screen. I do hope it's when you are. Much. Much. Older. And that way you can truly enjoy it. The way I know I will. And I'll be older too.

[01:24:38] So I feel like we'll all just be up in there. Having us a good time. I'll be great. Like actually this is great. Okay. All right. I think. I think that's it. Yeah. I have. Any books or movies. That you would recommend for your audience. To read or watch. After reading your book. Because we're really obsessed with this.

[01:25:08] Like what's. Really going on. In Hollywood genre. Fellow Travelers. Was a miniseries. With Jelani Aladdin in it. That is. I think excellent. In sort of that McCarthy era. 1950s. Period. Period. The original. That I mentioned earlier. Is. Very good. There's. A non-fiction book. This is.

[01:25:38] Look what's happening to me. And it's about. Shirley Chisholm. Shirley Chisholm. And Diane Carroll. It's non-fiction. And. Okay. Diane Carroll threw a fundraiser. For Shirley Chisholm's. Presidential run. And it's exquisite. And it's. It's one of those stories. Again where you're like. Like this happened. And. Right. Very good. Very good. Okay. Look you gave us enough clues. We'll be able to find it. Don't worry. I do the same thing. I'm like okay.

[01:26:07] Remember when. And then it was this person. And normally like between. The four of us were able to. Get it. So we got you. We figured it out. Yeah. Well. We just want to say again. Thank you so. So. So much for joining us today. We had so much fun. And I feel like we've gained so much insight. Into not only your work. But just Hollywood. And the ins and outs. Yes.

[01:26:38] I just. Thank you. We are so grateful that you were able to join us. And we hope that the listeners. Were able to gain a little something. You've got some exclusive tea on what's coming next. And if you enjoyed. There's only one sit in Hollywood. Definitely make sure you're following Rashid. You do not want to miss on what. On what he has coming next. Because y'all heard it. There's. It's coming. 70s. Queerness. Serial killers. Perhaps.

[01:27:08] I'm just saying. I'm already sad. So we're ready for that. Okay. Need you say more? You didn't have to even say anything else honestly. And matter of fact. Go and read his first book. Exactly. While you're at it. Right. Mm-hmm. Thank you. So thank you for having me. It was fun. All right. This is the Reading Black Girls podcast. We love y'all. We mean it. And we'll see you next time. Bye guys.