Runner by Ashton Lattimore

[00:00:22] This is so weird because usually we're already chatting. Exactly. We're usually already chatting and then it's like, podcast is starting. Okay. The countdown was crazy. A little bit. The countdown was crazy. A little bit. We saw the warning and still wasn't ready. What's everyone drinking this morning? What are our beverages? A little iced coffee and a little water to start the day. Nothing crazy. Nothing crazy. Same. Actually, I have some espresso and y'all know I don't ever drink.

[00:00:52] And it's hot. And it is warm. I don't know. I just needed that this morning. I don't know who she is. I don't know what's about to happen on this episode. What happened? Why do you need espresso today? Because I, okay, it was like, this is the second week of full back, like being in school with the children and y'all know they take everything out of me. So I woke up this morning and I was like, oh, I woke up at 6 a.m. just like it was a regular school day and I couldn't go back to sleep.

[00:01:22] So, espresso it is. Yeah. So I'm about to be bouncing around a little bit. Okay. Shortly, I think. Unfortunately. Or fortunately. I think it's going to be fortunate. What about you, Alex? I'm drinking a nice coffee too. Okay. Yummers. Ashton, do you have a? I was like looking for the coffee machine this morning and could not find it.

[00:01:50] So I'm just like, just here with myself. Yes. Energy lovers. Okay. We love it. I'm actually a little scared of you. I'm not going to lie. Like that's such power. I don't know. I don't know how this is going to go, but no, no coffee, no water. Just, just me. Just vibes. Sometimes raw. I love that. It really is. It gives the most honest reactions. Yeah. Cause it was like, it was just me. Yeah. I don't know what's her. Whatsoever.

[00:02:21] Oh, and I just have some agua. Yum. And I do have my Alani. I am back. You can't put it down, can you? You just can't stop. You know, I just came back from Jersey today. So this morning we were on the road. On the road again. Yeah. So I needed something because it was a lot. Fair, fair, fair, fair. Thank you. Thank you. We'll allow it for today, but I am monitoring you.

[00:02:49] I have two more in the fridge and I always drink. I have this morning. So. Are you going to drink another one today? No, but I will have coffee later, but I'm not going to drink another Alani. That's, um, that's a bit much, you know? Yes. Even I rein it in sometimes. Why not like a tea? Oh, no, thank you. Um, I'd rather have a coffee. No, thank you. No, thank you. Are you keeping a count of your caffeine intake still? Like by milligrams? Well, yes.

[00:03:19] If I have one. Oh, by the way, I had to have a Celsius yesterday. Ugh. I was so sad. Yeah, I know. Had to is the key word there. Had to. There were no more Alani's and I still had so much of the night left. It wasn't even evening actually. So I did need that. Um, but yes, I'm still keeping track. If I have two Alani's, that's 400 milligrams of caffeine, which is the maximum that doctors recommend.

[00:03:44] Um, and so I've had, by the time I finish this, I'll have 300 and a cup of coffee is probably like 50 milligrams, maybe. It's not even that high. So yeah, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. You know, that little meme of that lady with the math all over her face and she's just like, yeah, I did. That's Aziza. Yeah, I already did the calculations. She's like, don't worry. Everything's gonna be fine. Yeah.

[00:04:14] Um, if you regularly listen to our podcast, this is The Reading Black Girls Podcast. Hello. Hi. How are y'all doing? You may have heard a fifth voice. So we're just going to go really quickly and say, Hey, to y'all just in case this is your first one. So you can kind of recognize our voices. And then we have a special guest that we're introducing to y'all today for a special episode. We're so excited. So I'm Nish. I'm Alex.

[00:04:43] I'm Kayla. I'm Aziza. And we are the Reading Black Girls. Welcome. Welcome back. Welcome back. Today, ladies and gentlemen, we have a very special guest. We have the, okay, we've got a new his fic champ in the chat. Like what? We do. Like, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very serious. Yes, we have the Ashton Lattimore here with us today. Hi, everybody.

[00:05:15] And if you, if you don't know, if you don't know who she is, I need you to tap in. I need you to tap in. Okay. Because she is giving us hit after hit. Ashton Lattimore is an award-winning author, journalist, and former lawyer. She writes historical fiction that puts powerful, complicated women at the center of their own stories and sheds light on overlooked communities. Her debut novel, All We Were Promised, was a book of the month pick and selected as best book of the year by the Washington Post and NPR.

[00:05:41] Her newest novel, Runner, was just published in July. And if you haven't already picked up a copy, audiobook, ebook, physical, go to your library, go to independent bookstore, don't matter. Just get the book, okay? You will not be disappointed. And let me just say, it's funny. I always saw somebody on thread saying like, man, I want more his fic that's not always about, you know, enslavement or that, like that type of vibe.

[00:06:09] And I'm like, well, why do we have something from you? Prohibition? Because actually, yeah, Black people have been around and we went through that too. And that was such, like, I don't know what it was. I was like, why was I never thinking about Black people during Prohibition? Right. Like, when I think Black in the 1920s, I automatically think Harlem Renaissance. I'm like, no, they were banned. Like, you could not drink out. So much stuff was happening. In other cities too.

[00:06:37] Somebody would say too much stuff was happening in the 1920s. Right. Right. But so much writing material, you know? Which is how we got this great book. Right. So we have Ashton here. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We are going to do our quick, like, little speed round. Just like to break the ice. Though we have been kind of kiki-ing behind the scenes prior to recording, y'all. We're just going to break the ice for you all.

[00:07:04] And you'll maybe learn a little something new about her during our little quick round. So, we're going to start off very slow. Okay. Ice coffee or hot coffee? Hot coffee, always. I don't care how hot it is outside. Hot coffee. Just like my mom. Right. Okay, romance or thriller? Ooh, thriller. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:33] That's, that's, that's tea. Yeah. You know what? That makes sense. Because there were some twists in, in runner. Yes. I feel like that actually checks out. Right? I need the thrillers to pick up some tips. Like, oh, how can I put something like this? Yeah. I love it. Okay. Lip gloss or lip balm? Lip gloss. Okay. And which time period would you travel back to if you could? Ooh. That is a fun one.

[00:08:05] I'll say the 1920s. Yes. Solid era. Come on, Jess. Okay. Which do you prefer? Audiobook or e-book? E-book. Okay. Okay. I love that. Alex, yeah. Period. Period. So you can read at any time of the day. Whatever's going on. Very true. You can see. Yeah. You can always kind of like get it in there.

[00:08:33] I feel like if I have an audiobook going on, I need to just be like locked in. Yeah. If you're talking over the audiobook, no, please. Yeah. Do you have a Kindle or do you have a Copo or do you have another e-reader? I have a Kindle. Okay. Okay. Kindle girlies to the front. Yes. Since they were invented, I've had a Kindle. Real. Yeah. OG. Yes. Yeah. Kindle. All right. Reading retreat. Okay. Big city, mountains, or oceanside?

[00:09:04] Oceanside for sure. I love that. Period. I love to read. A woman by the sea. Yes. Okay. Last five-star read. What was my last five-star read? Mexican Gothic. I love it. I love Sylvia. Oh, my gosh. It's so good. It was so good. It was so weird and interesting. Perfectly weird. Perfectly weird. Yes.

[00:09:33] Agreed. Okay. What is your fave book of 2026 so far? Or just one of your fave books of 2026 so far? I'm trying to think, did this come out in 2026? I'm in the middle of it right now, but I'm reading The Quarter Queen by Kelly. It came out this year. It came out this year. It came out this year. Loving it. I bought it while I was in New Orleans. I was like, oh, yeah. That was good. I didn't love that. Yeah. When I went and the book was signed, because I guess she had been to the store and signed it.

[00:10:03] So I got like a five- Okay. Yay. Wow. I'm pretty pleased with it right now. It's a fantastic story and it's historical and I love historical. Yes. Okay. Would you rather be a stay-at-home wife, a mom, or a rum runner if you could just do anything? No limits here. No limits. I'm currently a mom. I feel like perhaps being a rum runner would be easier. Let's get into this business.

[00:10:33] I am going to go with rum runner. And then do you have possibly one celebrity you would want to read runner at all? Or that you envision reading runner? Viola Davis. Fabulous. Fabulous. Love that choice. I feel like she beat it up. I think she didn't know that. Yeah. Once everyone has read it and they see Aunt Mary and they will understand, but that's who she is in my head. Okay.

[00:11:02] I love that. Yes. I really love that. Yeah. That's good. That tracks. I love it. Well, if you haven't read runner yet and you are someone like Aziza who hates a spoiler and will hold it against you for the rest of your life, please go ahead and pick up runner, exit, read it, and then come back.

[00:11:28] Or if you just want to, you know, stay for some exclusive, some tea, possibly just getting to hear Ashton read about her work. And if you've read the book, come on and have a seat because we're about to get into it. We always have to give that because, you know, sometimes people be upset. They're like, he spoiled it. It's like, you're listening to a podcast episode about the book. Right. You saw what you know. You knew what happened. You knew what was going to happen before you clocked in with us.

[00:11:58] Hello. Or you didn't and we're sorry, but now you know. Okay. Lesson here. Right. So we're going to get into some questions about the book and for you. So first, I love how Leah's entry into the book was where to hooch at. Like she immediately got to work, but it also doubled as like a connection that she had with her father.

[00:12:23] So I was curious, what was your reasoning in having the reader learn about her father solely through other characters? Oh, I love that question. I wanted to build a story that is sort of built around an absence. So it's like a story that has this man at the center, but he's gone because I'm far more interested in the women in his life, the four main women in his life, which I'm sure we will get into.

[00:12:54] So I think just having him be dead right from the beginning. First of all, just like for pacing and story reasons is I think just like a fun way. I mean, not if you're Lena, but it's a fun way to start the story. We know what you meant. Not if you're his family. For the reader, you kind of just jump right in. And I think just being able to see him through all these different people's eyes, especially through his daughter's eyes.

[00:13:20] And especially as they learn more about who he really was and what he was actually like and how they have to update the things that they thought they knew, the things that they remember, moments that they remember that maybe were not what they look like. It just was kind of fun to play with and an interesting way to kind of get at the character. Because I feel like you come away from the book, like understanding him pretty well, I think. But yeah, you never meet him. Never meet him. Girl, he was haunting us the whole time. I said, oh! It was like he was there.

[00:13:50] Girl, please. It truly was. I kept having to remind myself, I was like, he's gone, Aziza. He is gone. He's dead already. But he was such still a clear character in my mind. Absolutely. He impacted so much. Literally every other character in the book, he left a mark with them. It was crazy. I was like, this is a thriller. I don't know. Maybe he's not dead. There was a version of this where he wasn't dead. I kind of was holding that out. I was like, maybe he's not dead. That was the original idea, actually.

[00:14:20] He was going to come back in the end. Oh my God. Yes. Well, it was going to turn out that he was off with the third woman. But I was like, let me not. I knew it. Let me not. Let me not. I'm sorry. Let me tell you something. That would have been such a moment for me. Gag moment. That would have been like, if there's one and two, there is a three. Right. You know. Walt was like, y'all don't know that man. He had multiple stops.

[00:14:49] And he would stay for multiple days. We didn't know where he was. Yeah. Everybody else was like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's who he was. Yeah. I mean, but they were like, sailors, you know, that's how they are. And I'm like, but do we have to accept that? It's just who they are. It's how it works. It's part of the job. You know, the same way, like police have to wear a uniform. If you're a sailor, you have to have women in multiple ports. That's what I'm told. That's what I'm told. Yeah.

[00:15:18] We don't make the rules. We don't make the rules. It just is what it is. It is. Ugh. Men. Men. Right. That is the subtitle of this book. Ugh. Men. I'm weak. And I'm sorry. I live for that. I live for that. Because I'll be honest, that whole like Papa was a Rolling Stone type. Okay.

[00:15:45] As someone who discovered she had an elder half-sister in sixth grade, girl. Oh my God. I was looking at this book like, is it me? Is this play about me? Is this me? I was having such a good time though, because it's like, you're so curious because as a child, obviously you're, you see your dad as your superhero.

[00:16:10] And I feel like Lena was having that same, you know, entire time. Like she's like, man, all those times where he'd come home with all these gifts. Like, was it because he was just making up for the other family? Like, and I'm sitting here like, you know what? You know what? Yep. The thing is, I think it's a lot of people. I have listened. That was such a Black family thing. Yeah.

[00:16:39] It's based on some people I won't name, but who I am perhaps descended from. And I have a set of aunts and uncles who, you know, perhaps have a different mother than the main family. So I had a lot to draw from, you know, in real life. Yeah. I loved it personally. So thank you for that. Yes. I'm here for all kinds of representation. Second family representation, Rolling Stone representation.

[00:17:09] It's all in there. If it happens, it's going in the book. Yes. Period. Now, it's just kind of going still on that same topic. How did you decide then when you were going to reveal Dee's secret to the characters within the story? Was that something that you consciously like made a decision or was that something that just as you were writing came to be like, you're like, actually, we're going to kind of weave this in towards the end and cause some chaos. Yeah.

[00:17:39] Well, I guess, which secret of Dee's are we talking about? That's true. Seriously. We're just talking about a few. We're talking parentage. Parentage. We'll get into that other one. Yes. We'll get into that other one. I love that. So the parentage is interesting. You know, I originally had planned to reveal it to the reader and to Lena at the same time, which is like towards the middle of the book. But I felt like it cut us off from Dee's character in a way that like, I don't know,

[00:18:07] I wanted you to kind of get to know her, understand her struggle. And then as I kind of wrote it the other way, where you find out, I think it's like chapter four, you find out long before Lena finds out. Yeah. That just ended up feeling really fun. Yeah. Just to be in that space with Dee. Like, is she going to find out? Am I going to tell her? Is it going to happen now? Is she going to, you know. Yes. Yes. Very nice. It was a little more stressful. That came from it. Yeah. I like to stress you out. That is my God. Good. You did a good job. Yeah. You succeeded with that one. It's accomplished.

[00:18:37] We love to be stressed out. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Perfect. It was good. I was like, how can I stress them out early without, you know. Like that. Or even though I'm running stress starts. Let me insert a problem even before we get out. And there were problems just that continued to happen throughout. Right. Kept me very interested. But even like you said. Yeah. Even like you said, though, to understand Dee. Like, I don't know.

[00:19:06] I feel like if you didn't have her POV, like, it would have been. We would have been missing something. I felt for her immediately. I'm like, when she was just talking about growing up being a girl and literally like barely seeing her dad and not being able to go to church with grandma and grandpa because of all that. Like, what? No child should have to deal with that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was nice to have her POV, like, very, very early on.

[00:19:31] Because I think even before you know everything about her, you get really a view of what the damage is for the second family. You know, for the other child in a family like this. So, yeah. Shout out Dee. Yeah. Because I'm. There were a few times when I was just like reading and it was like something, something. My sister. I closed the book. I said, sister. Sister.

[00:19:58] Like my sister who don't know she my sister, but she really my sister. Right. And I'm trying to be sisterly. And I'm trying to be sisters with my sister who don't know she my sister. Right. And she don't want to be my sister when she finds out she's my sister. And she don't want to be my sister. I'm like, girl. It's like maybe because you were deceptive and sisters don't do that to other sisters. But in her defense. In her defense. It was like, when is she supposed to drop this bomb? Like. Right. Yeah. And she's trying to figure out how much going on.

[00:20:28] There's not a good time. It wasn't. You know why? Sorry. Your dad's dead. Also, he's my dad and a cheater. Like, no. Sorry. He had a whole other family. Yikes. You didn't know? Because I also found out that I have an older sister. And I was trying to remember. Yeah. It's just, you know. What are the stats? When came she? And I was like, hmm. How did I find out? And my dad just called. Like, three-way called my younger sister and I. What? And just ran him, like, Wednesday afternoon and told us.

[00:20:58] I was like, oh. Oh, my God. Okay. Yeah. I don't think there is a good time to let someone know. There's no. Hey, you've got another family member. And they're not a baby. Okay? Right. They're older. They're not fresh. Yes. They're older is really where I was like, oh, okay. Because then you start doing the math. Oh, yeah. And how old am I? How old is my mother? How long have you been married? You know? Right. And sometimes it's like, oh, okay. It was before the marriage. But then sometimes it's like. Hmm.

[00:21:28] What happened here? Hmm. Exactly. Yeah. What were you doing? You know what you were doing? Know what you were doing. Oh, my God. I am absolutely. And I think actually all of us, we love women's stories, especially if the women are complicated and situations are complicated. And a core theme of this book was really women's self-determination and how difficult it can be

[00:21:54] to break out of these boxes that are made by community, by your family members, by, you know, strangers. So what's one lesson that you want your readers to take away from that? Hmm. I think one lesson for, I think it comes from all of the women, is that you can and you should break out of the boxes that people put you in, but there will be a cost. There's always a cost.

[00:22:19] The cost doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but it's something that you have to be prepared for. Because even, I guess, 100 years after the time this story was set, when women try to do things that they think is, you know, something that a man is supposed to do and is outside of the box that women are supposed to be put in, there's always pushback. So just kind of being prepared for that and standing in your truth of what you know about

[00:22:45] yourself and what you want to do in the face of that pushback, I think, is what I would encourage people to take from all of the women in this story. Not that all of them did it in the most non-toxic way, Viola, but, you know, there's something to learn from everyone. There's something to learn from everyone. That's good. There is something you can learn from everyone. Yes.

[00:23:10] I just, I felt for Lena because every time she was in a situation, men tried to disregard her, just, you know, let the men handle this. And she pulled out that gun and said, no. Actually. No, period. No, actually. Her finger was always immediately on that trigger. It was always in the back of her mind, though. Like, that's a... I should just shoot them. I should just shoot them. Yeah.

[00:23:40] Yeah. Right. Shooting them. We can fuck it out, or... And it was some man always trying to stop her. They're like, no, stop your temper. And she's like, hello? Hello? We're being robbed. We're being robbed. Yeah, right. We're being robbed. Lock in. On top of... On top of all the other things that are happening. Because mind you, like, the bank was trying to take the house. Okay. That... I was so stressed out. I was trying to arrest her brother. They're watching her. Exactly. They wanted to be paid off. She's got competition on the island.

[00:24:11] Yeah. Okay. Problem after problem. Yeah. Problem after problem. Her temper is justified. I feel like she had everything. Every reason. And also, people trying to calm her down. Like, oh, stop pulling your gun out. Like, we're criminals. We're doing crime. Like, it's too quick. Be for real. Like, where's your gun? Actually. No one else had a gun. Nobody else has a gun? Just me? And I thought that was so weird. I was like, what is yours? Like, oh, it's me. Let's be for real.

[00:24:38] Do we really want Walt to have the gun? Well... Oh, my God. To be fair. No. To be fair. Because that was... I mean, Lena would be like, Walt, sit your ass down. Right. Give me the gun, Walt. Damn. And give me the gun. He's like, I'll trade you. Right? But I... I see some rum over there. I feel for Walt. I'm like, World War I veteran. He had... PTSD. You come back to the US and you're not entitled to the same things as other veterans.

[00:25:09] Like... Yes. Oof. And you got to keep your daddy's secrets. Yes. Okay. Yes. That was so... I thought that was so unfair on his father's part. Because it's like, how are you going to burden one of your children with a secret that heavy? Because now you've put him in the middle. And like we said earlier, there's just no good time or way to tell a loved one, like, hey, there's more family. And that's his mom.

[00:25:35] Like, apart from having to keep it from his sister, having to know that your father is doing that to your mom. Every time he's going out? That's crazy. Every time. Every single time he's going out. But yeah, it's a lot to carry. Yeah. Walt was... He's frustrating, I'm sure, to have as a brother. But, you know, as a character, I have sympathy for him. Because as you said, you were pointing out, he's got all this stuff in his background. He's a war vet.

[00:26:02] He's got the alcohol thing going on. Everybody in his family knows he has issues with alcohol. And they're still like, come do these rum runs with us. Which is kind of crazy. That bar is that bar. Yeah. Like, not you pointing out the problem, but still being like, Walt, you're coming, right? But come on. Right, yeah, yeah. You're going to help, right? Yeah. And he's like, all right. Yeah. I guess. And then they turn around and he's drinking again. And they're like, Walt! Like, what did you expect? Walt's like, you put me in this situation. Right.

[00:26:32] And this is some good rum, too. Okay. Oh, yeah. We'll take 30 cases of your best rum. You don't have it at Walt. But, yeah. Because the rum was quality, okay? Oh, yeah. It wasn't tasting like embalming fluid. It was quality liquid. It wasn't killing folks. Correct. No. That's some dangerous business. Some people were really risking it for the biscuit. Like, oof. So, when you were going into, like, the research surrounding prohibition and even,

[00:27:01] as the simple decision to have them get their liquor from the Canadians. Like, I don't know why in my mind I was not thinking that. Right. Yeah. Of course it would come from them, no? Yes! It makes sense. It makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. You, I'm not going to lie, I might be doing some more research. Oh, yeah! Going down a little rabbit hole. Because I just feel like there were so many pieces to prohibition. Yeah.

[00:27:26] In particular to African Americans, Black folk, that I just was not thinking of. So, just how did you go about doing this research? Because I just know that it was extensive. Yes, yes. So, to learn about prohibition, I started with this book. It's called Last Call. And it's basically, like, a comprehensive history of prohibition. And that's where I learned more about Rum Row, specifically, which is, like, the line of ships that come from, they came from a bunch of places, but they came from Canada, they came

[00:27:56] from the Bahamas, and that's where the rum runners would, like, run out to the ships over the three-mile line and pick up their liquor. So, that's kind of where the research began. And that book was just super comprehensive. And that's also where I learned about some of the dangers of liquor at the time, because people were trying to make it out of anything. People were using embalming fluid. They were using other chemicals. And people were dying. People were going blind. It was poison. A lot of it was actually poison.

[00:28:24] So, if you could get something that still had a seal on it that was from, like, a known distillery or a known producer of liquor, that was going to be a much safer operation. And also, I think, like, much more lucrative. People will pay for stuff that they know is not going to kill them when they're trying to make a cocktail. So, definitely a lot of book reading. And then there was also a lot of, like, I re-watched Boardwalk Empire. And, you know, I was consuming culture from the time period.

[00:28:52] I was reading novels from the Harlem Renaissance as well during that period just to kind of get, to pick up the vibe, to pick up the vibe. And then there's a lot of prohibition history that's specific to Martha's Vineyard. So, I took a trip up here. That's where I am right now. Fabulous. And there is a lot of great information at the Martha's Vineyard Museum about how prohibition was here. Old newspaper articles about the rum runners. About the shipwreck that inspired this book. Because it's based on a real shipwreck.

[00:29:22] So, yeah. Old newspapers, books, movies, everything. I kind of drew from every single place I could find. Wow. Oh, my gosh. I wish I was with you. I wish I could have just been right next to you while you were doing that. That's so fascinating. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I love it. And I love that you're in the vineyard right now. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'm excited. It's beautiful up here. I'm in a new part.

[00:29:50] Every time I've been here before, I've been in, like, Oak Bluffs or Vineyard Haven. But I'm in Edgar Town right now. But it's, like, in the woods. And there's some kind of, like, cove or something behind me. I don't know if it's, like, a lake. I don't know. I'm in nature. You can hear that. Yeah. We can kind of hear the nature. Yeah. It's nice. That's beautiful. It's nice. I'm liking it. I'm liking it. So, going back to your characters, as a queer person, I, of course, always love seeing queer representation in books.

[00:30:17] So, why was it so important to you to showcase, like, such a diverse cast of characters, which included LGBTQIA plus representation? I think because it was authentic to the time period. I mean, queer life is authentic to every time period. But you don't often see it in, I think, historicals from this particular moment and earlier.

[00:30:43] But particularly during the Harlem Renaissance, 1920s, 30s, 40s, there are these kind of havens for Black queer life. We know Paris was a really big one, which comes up for the characters here. Like, a lot of Harlem Renaissance queer writers ended up moving to Paris for some time. Some of them just stayed over there, I think, for the rest of their lives. Right. Because it's easier to be Black and it was easier to be queer during that time period over there.

[00:31:09] So, and the fact that because Dee is in the arts community, this is going to be a space where people have a little bit more freedom to just kind of be who they are. And the arts and the music was such a big piece of this time period and what Black culture was in this moment. To me, it just, it felt very natural for that to be who the characters were and the life experience that they had. But I also just love showing different facets of the Black experience. It's not all working class.

[00:31:39] It's not all elite. It's not all straight. It's not all queer. There's 5,000 different ways to be Black and to be a Black woman in every time period. So this is just kind of one more, one more layer, I think. I love that. That's amazing. I had to write that down. Yeah. So good. He was dropping nuggets. Nuggets. Beautiful. Yes. And I loved Dee and I loved Hazel. Yeah. They were so sweet. They were so sweet.

[00:32:06] And it's like all they wanted to do was be together and do their artists, their music. Yes. That's it. That's it. And the whole time I was just like, come on. Come on. Like. Yes. I know. Yeah. Like just right off the sunset. We're going to get to New York somewhere. They're going to make it. They're going to be okay. I had to make them be okay. Yes. And I appreciated that. Other people. Because everyone couldn't have their hands. We're going to have to make it out. Everyone couldn't make it out. Ashton. And we'll be circling back to that. Yes.

[00:32:36] We're going to put a pin in that. Yes. We're going to hold me accountable. Hold me accountable. It's okay. But I do have to. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Alex. Oh, so I just wanted to just speak a little bit about just like the epic travels in this book. Like I felt like these characters went on their own like odyssey. And like they were traveling way outside of Martha's Vineyard. I just loved how you woven Boston and New York.

[00:33:00] And can you just speak a little more on the other areas in Prohibition that like were happening in the East Coast? Yeah. So on the East Coast, Boston, lots and lots of gangs, the Irish gangs, some Italian gangs. Yes. Yes. South Boston where I actually lived for several years. So those streets are very familiar to me. Um, that was a big city for bootleggers, um, rum runners as well, because it's right on the water. And then of course we know New York, all of the rise of organized crime. Yes.

[00:33:29] Everything that was happening was happening in New York City. And the interesting thing is during this time period where people who are visiting the vineyard are coming from are primarily those two cities. So it was the Boston Black Elite that kind of started the vineyard thing. Um, and then New Yorkers came, um, a little bit later. So those cities have a very close connection with the island. So that's why to me it kind of made sense to tie in those locations.

[00:33:55] And also you kind of, you know, just get to go on a whirlwind adventure on a boat with them, um, which was fun. Um, and with the arts for Dee and Hazel, there's, it's like this place that they're trying to get to, um, that's like so important to them. Um, because in addition to being a haven for crime and like, you know, bootlegging and rum running, New York City was like the arts capital, wasn't as, you know, an arts capital of the world.

[00:34:19] So yeah, I think, um, having all of the, the different cities kind of tied together because the vineyard is one of the threads that ties them together in some ways. Deep, amazing. Makes sense. And you did, by the way, I love the author's note. Like, yeah, girl, I was like, yeah, she was. So good. Needed it. You were, the research was deep. It was so, so, so deep.

[00:34:41] Uh, but I just wanted to comment on, I think something, which it feels like right now, like the past couple of years, we've seen a lot of literature surrounding like the Harlem Renaissance, like Harlem Rhapsody with Love from Harlem, a Harlem wedding. And all of them depict like the glitz and glam and the glamour of this time. But I love the way like you showed kind of like the starving artists, like how hard it was for people to like break into, you know, into the scene.

[00:35:08] So can you talk about like why, not like really a shift, but maybe more of a realistic approach of why you chose to depict like a. Yes. Yes. As I was, um, as I was doing my research, I was learning. Cause you know, you always kind of start with the glitz and the glamour, like, Oh, famous people, the people who had money and, you know, had the beautiful townhomes in Harlem. And there is some of that. But as I got deeper into reading specifically about Harlem during this time period, there were parts of it that were kind of a slum.

[00:35:37] And you had slum lords who are renting these terrible apartments to people. Um, and it's just not what you usually see, but if you're coming from somewhere else, you don't have a ton of money. That's kind of where you're going to start. And, um, I also saw some of that in novels from that era. So contemporary, like they were written during the Harlem Renaissance, like in and about Harlem. Um, and it's a lot grittier and I really wanted to get that aspect of it.

[00:36:05] Um, like certainly there's lots of like clubs and fancy things, but New York is still New York. And there are parts of it that are going to be both expensive and not that nice at the same time. Which still feels true. When you took us to Uncle Bobby's Club, I said. Oh no. Oh no. The ghetto. Oh. He said, get me out of here. Okay. It was very much giving Nini like, wipe her fridge.

[00:36:34] Get your shoes. We got to get out of here. We got to find you at home. We got to get out of here. Absolutely not. I, that scene was so much fun to write. Cause I was like, how many things can I make wrong in this? That was hilarious too. And I will say that whole like kind of peeling back of who Uncle Bobby was. And I'm, I'm using quotes right now. Um, and then kind of getting to see that, you know, the head was actually.

[00:37:05] Okay. Oh my gosh. I was living because in my head, I said, Nina, I'm not, we can capitalize on this. I said, we have a mentor. Do you see this woman? She's a boss. The bodyguard. She's walking around town and everybody's, you know, they scared of her. Madam. They scared of her. She said, you can get my good graces and you can get this 50 pick. So nevermind.

[00:37:32] I'm going to go back to running my business over here now. Sorry. Shoot. Dude, I was scared. Okay. Don't cross her. But she was, yeah. Oh, she's based on a real person. Which I think. Yeah. I was going to ask like, where did that inspiration come from? Because that was again, something else that I didn't think about the underground numbers game, the underground lottery. I'm like, she said, yeah, that and a little real estate. That's how I afford this lifestyle. Yeah.

[00:38:02] She is based on Stephanie St. Clair, called her Madam, Madam St. Clair, who ran the numbers game in Harlem for a lot of the 1920s, the early 1930s before it was ultimately, I think the Italians came in and took it over at some point. But yeah, she did real estate. She was running numbers and she was the boss at that time period. So yes, I thought of the character of Aunt Marian as like a mentor or someone that Lena could

[00:38:31] kind of look at and see, okay, this is how I could make this life work if I want to keep up some version of this. But yes, the process of seeing Uncle Bobby, you know, he's coming in, he's swaggering, he's like, oh, I'm in charge, I'm a boss. And just him immediately shrinking when his sister comes in. It's like Lena and Walter, the next generation, right? So yeah. That was hilarious.

[00:38:59] And I personally love that. And I did really also like how she had embraced Dee at the end. Like, I'm like, actually, thank you. Because at the end of the day, it's not her fault that her daddy was who he was. Like, she had nothing to do with it. I'm just out on, you know, the connection with the family. So that, I really love that you did that. That brought my heart. Some joy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:28] Let's talk about the other thing. There are multiple things, Ashton. There's a few things, but. Did I do something that did not bring you joy? You didn't come on. It's so sad. I'll have to shut it for a second after that. I have to shut. I'm so sad. I'm for a moment. You know, when you're reading, I put that book down. I said, why would she do this?

[00:39:56] It was when like, he was just so positive. Like, he kept saying like, this is what I want for the future. This is what I want. Like, this is what I would love to do if I could. And I'm like, is he saying this? That should have been a red flag. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Why are you talking like this? Are you talking in the future too much? Oh God. What about right now? God. But I felt so sick for Lena when she found out like, Jesse was playing her.

[00:40:26] Like when Dee finally came and told her the truth. I'm just like, Lena's been through enough. Seriously. That was the first thing. That was the first thing. And we were, I know I was like, man, like, okay, what you about to do? And I'm not going to lie. My first instinct, I went very Lena. No, I said, girl, go on and get your get. Yeah. Go on and shoot him. Go on and shoot him. Because I love that she immediately went and addressed it. She didn't give it. She said, so who are you? What are you doing here? Who are you really?

[00:40:55] And don't lie to me. Clearly, I don't know you. Right. And don't lie. I'll give you the opportunity to tell the truth now. Right. Before I shoot you. That part was a silent. But that was what was coming after. Very much implied. But Jesse was like, who did you, who was he even talking about where you got this? Information from me. Did they say my name? Right. And she was like, they didn't. No, but who else? And I was just like, well, yes, no, who else? Yeah. And then, okay, then my little gears.

[00:41:26] Look, me and Lena was having the same thoughts at the same time. And then I was like, oh, don't tell me, Samuel. Sam. The full government. Samuel. Come to the front. Bring your ass out here. Who was playing games from the jump. From the beginning. From the beginning. Yeah. That was a crazy. That was a crazy. The ball of him. Just having a little hee hee ha ha at her expense. Huh, Samuel? Laughing in her face.

[00:41:54] And meanwhile, he's like, oh no, don't do it. You can't be a criminal. Right. It's so wrong. It's illegal. And then I said, you should live with me. Be my wife. Right. And then have the nerve to be like, I tried to stop you. Mm-hmm. It's like, did you? Because it feels, it feels like you were just being really nefarious. Right. Like you set me up. Right. Literally. Yeah. Did you try to stop me? Did you, or did you rob me? Right.

[00:42:21] Like I feel like robbing me and trying to stop me are not the same. They're not. Two very different things. There were many ways you could have gone about doing that. And robbing me did not have to be one of them. He was like, we tried to take it easy on you. You robbed us. You, right. How easy can it be? My brother got beat up. And beat my brother up. Y'all punched him in his stomach. He wasn't even ready. I feel like Sam was looking for a reason. Yes. Yes, he was. He was looking for a reason to, uh. Because him and Bob. They had beef the whole time. I was like, okay.

[00:42:51] And then like, he brought his little college buddies or whatever in on it. I said, oh, so you think this is about to be a little boys club? And when, when she got on that ship. When he was going to make that drop. And, and drop. And name drop at the same time. Talking about, oh, well, you know, if Lena didn't trust me. You know. Why would she bring me along? That whole time. I loved that she did show us some growth. Because I was like, girl, shoot him. Popping out at that moment. Shoot him. Shoot him.

[00:43:21] I know she was like, her, that, that trigger finger was itching. Okay. It sure was. But I said, no, no. Let it play out. I loved it. He said, let him get the money first. Let him get the money first. Because mind you. And then. We're in debt. Okay. We got to get this money. We got to get this money. Focus on the main goal. So yeah. She, she did grow. Well, she grew. And then, you know, perhaps a setback later. Later. We're not counting that.

[00:43:50] Growth is not linear. You know what I mean? Sometimes you look back to come up again. Yes. She has some reasonable moments. She has some, you know, less reasonable moments. And that's okay. That's okay. Yes. Yes. But honestly, now that I think about it, when D was sitting up with Sam's college buddies and they were like, he's not as innocent as you think. I was like. There was a. There was that, that, that little, that little breadcrumb. And I was just like, maybe he's got another coming through. Maybe he was dealing with other women.

[00:44:20] Maybe he was like a drunk in pharmacy school. Girl, I wouldn't think this. Yeah. It was worse actually than all of us. They were like, Sam, he be drinking. He know his way around a bottle. He go out. He do other stuff. Samuel? Sam. My Sam. The one we bring about. The pharmacist. There were some crumbs. There were some. The ones obsessed with me. Who know where I am. That one? That Samuel? I mean, look, that was the chrome right there. And then it was him. Exactly. We should have known.

[00:44:49] He always knows where you are. What are you doing? Always. And what is he doing back in the storeroom in his pharmacy where the door always closed? If he has no, if he has no customers. No customers. No customers. You can mix them. You mix them herbs in the front where we can all see. Right. Come on out. Come back there in the stock room. So we can see what you got going on, Samuel. Yep. But I loved that. That was, my jaw was on the floor. I was kind of shook with that.

[00:45:19] Yeah. Like, I said, oh, Sam. Sam. I said, now you got to go. Yep. You know? And I was like, well, maybe this is it. You know, Jesse and Lena, we're going to ride off into the sunset. The sisters found each other. We figured it out. So I hoped. But Sam was like, I didn't kill your daddy. Right. Yeah. I mean, everything else. That wasn't me. That wasn't me. He was genuinely confused about that accusation. And I was like, Lena, Lena, I don't think he did that.

[00:45:49] Yeah, no. I don't think he did it. But there were multiple revelations at the end. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah. You didn't. Jesse didn't have to die. To keep up. Like, you didn't have to do that. I had to pause the book. And then I had to rewind. I said, ain't no way. 15 seconds. 15 seconds. 15 seconds. I said, I had to admit something. That came who just died. And then I heard it all over again. And it was just pause. Again, close the book. I think that was book close number four. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God.

[00:46:19] It was like ripping my heart out of my chest. I feel like you just relived it, Alex. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking about it. Yeah. I could hear your voice. Collectively, we are in mourning. Okay. Yeah. They were this close. This close to happiness. They were. They were. They really were. But you can't get into a business like this and expect to come out. Yes. That was real. And that's real. We knew there were going to be obstacles. We knew there were going to be consequences.

[00:46:49] Unfortunately, someone had to die. Somebody had to pay the consequences. Yeah. And I guess that was the cost, Jessie. Yes. Yes. Yes. But you know what? Our girl, Lena, I think she'll be all right. Right. Lena's a massive finesser. She got this. She always had a plan. And that's one thing that I really enjoyed about her character. Like, she would be, okay, here's my solution number two. Lose number three. Four. Five. Six. Now we got another man trying to stand in my way.

[00:47:19] Okay. I need another backup. Seven. Eight. Nine. Nine. Nine. She had that drive, that ambition. She said, I'm going to take care of this family. Yes. One way or another. I love that with her. Like, just to have a main character that literally, like, never gave up. Like, even, she had no idea what was going on in this rum business. Right. But she was committed. She was like, I'm saving the family and this is how we're going to do it. Walt, teach me how to do this. Exactly. Show me a little bit. And then I'll take over. She didn't jump in. Yeah.

[00:47:47] She just jumped in head first. Raw, actually. And to do that in such a dangerous business. Right. No prep whatsoever. You've got your brother. He's drunk already. So you're like, well, he must know something. Right. He got that run from somewhere. Right. Has a sister in tow. Mm-hmm. Who also doesn't really know this circle. Doesn't know. Nobody knows anything. It's like the blind leading the blind leading the blind. And they somehow were going to figure it out.

[00:48:16] She had a can-do attitude. Yeah. And it carried her very far. And she did save the family. She did. She did. She was successful in that. She did. She did mission accomplished. So check. You're right. What's next? Right. I do have a question for you, Ashton. What was your favorite and or most challenging scene to write from this book? Hmm.

[00:48:43] My favorite scene to write was when Lena finds out who Dee is and the two of them just tell each other off, like up one side and down the other because they're both right. Yeah. They say some terrible things to each other in that moment, especially Dee, where she's like, oh, you're so upstanding. Why are you parading this other man in front of your old man? We really called her out. Yeah. Well, you lied about something too.

[00:49:13] That was fun. Yeah. They were both liars. They really enjoyed writing that because I feel like the whole story kind of turns in that moment and their relationship really turns in that moment. Oh, yeah. And it's kind of burnt down to the ground and then they can kind of rebuild it from there. But you can tell they really do see each other. They see the best in each other. They see the worst in each other. And they're not afraid to kind of name it.

[00:49:38] But I would say the hardest to write, probably Jesse's death. That was just, ugh. Because that wasn't originally in there either. Oh! Oh! Oh! You wanted to take it there. Yeah. Yeah. I was like fully voluntary and add at the end.

[00:50:03] But yeah, it was hard because I feel for, I mean, another character that we never meet, but his mother, who's now lost both of her sons. Yes. Because I was like, does his mama know? Who told his mama? Who told his mama? No, I think Lena probably wrote her a letter or something. It's horrible. Yeah. I would have to have done that. To think about. But yeah. That was tough to write because he was such a sweet, imperfect, but a sweet guy. Yeah.

[00:50:32] In terms of character, other people. So it was sad to lose him. But yeah, I did, you know, there are consequences. There are consequences. Yeah, you've got to be the boss. Yep. Exactly. You're so right, Alex. You're so right. But you did such a fantastic job of like creating these super complex characters from Lena, Dee, Hazel, Jesse, Sam, even, you know, even Sarah and her sisters, the aunties. The judgmental aunties. The aunties.

[00:51:02] You know, and this was, it was just, it was fantastic to just read about these different types of women who approach life differently, who have these different life experiences. And I definitely like saw, I don't want to say a shift, but this, it feels different than all we were promised, which by the way, we read with our book club. Yeah. Loved. Oh. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved. Loved.

[00:51:32] Since you're, since writing your debut to your second novel, how has your like writing system changed or your approach? Like what was different this second time around for you? Um, a couple of things. This was a very intentional shift, I think from, from the way that, that, that story felt. Um, I wanted, these characters are older, so that's a big piece of it. But in this character, this, this book in particular, I was very interested in not just the younger

[00:52:00] generation of women, but the mothers and the aunties were very interesting to me as well, because I think they are carrying a different set of costs for being involved in the things they're involved with. Their lives are very traditional, but the things that they have to swallow to live those very traditional lives, um, are so difficult. Um, and the mother-daughter relationships in this book were really, for me, they're kind of the structure that the whole thing is, is built around.

[00:52:26] There's Dee and Viola, and there's Lena and Sarah, and this idea of part of the coming of age process and part of becoming an adult is looking at your parents and being like, oh, you're people. You're not just my mom and my dad. Like, you, you are a woman who's in a relationship with this man, and maybe I don't know what kind of man he is actually, um, and asking questions, you know, about the choices that they've made and figuring out what that means for your own life.

[00:52:53] Um, so yeah, I wanted to engage a little more deeply with that this time. Um, just cause it's, you know, each story is going to call for something different, but writing process wise, what is my process? I write in like very short little sprints. Um, I don't really tend to like sit and write for hours every day. I set a very low bar for myself. It's like, I'll do two 10 minute writing sprints today and that's it. And it just accumulates over time.

[00:53:19] Um, and then once I get into the editing process, that's when I'm sitting there like for hours. And for this one in particular, because it's a little, probably a lot more twisty, I would say than my first book having to go back and like, okay, did I put enough clues like here, here, and here to make it plausible that, you know, this would happen. And so there was a lot more of sort of building the architecture of the twists, I would say in this case. Yeah. Okay. So they were done. Yes, it was done. Yeah. It delivered. Both of them. No, seriously. I was shook.

[00:53:50] Good. We still are. Right. Still recovering. It was a whirlwind. I liked it. We were all over the place, but I really liked that part. Yeah. All over the place, but like in the same tornado. Yes. Just in different parts of it. Yeah. Sometimes they flung us up to the top and sometimes we were down at the bottom. Once we were in the eye of the storm, but the rest of the time. Just everywhere. We were going. Exactly. And we were also in a shootout on a boat.

[00:54:20] Right. At night. In the tornado. There was just a fog. I'm like, can't nobody see nothing? There's just fog. That's how they kept getting rolled up on. Oh my God. My thing is, have y'all ever looked at a body of water at night? It's scary. That's so scary. It's dark. Yeah. It is dark. With no lights. There's nothing out there. It's just you in the sky. And if there's fog, no, it was real bad. But that's what was happening out there. And that's why.

[00:54:49] How do you coordinate that? No phones. No, you can't send them a letter. No GPS show. You just have to make sure you're at the right time, the right place. You just got to get out onto that water. It was like the, it was like, I think by like 1924, they were using shortwave radios to communicate like from ship to shore. So just after this, I said this in 1923 intentionally. So they didn't have like certain technology. And also so the Coast Guard wouldn't have certain technology. Yeah.

[00:55:18] Because at that point they were like, oh, this is going horribly. We need faster boats. We need this, this, this, and this. And I was like, I don't want to deal with that. So I said it right before things got very hard for the rum runners. But yeah, it was especially, you know, you're using the radios. You can't have your lights on because people will see you. It's a very dangerous business. Very dangerous business for sure. I loved it. We were right on that adventure with, with Lena. I was all new. Yes. I was a rum runner.

[00:55:48] Right. Yes. I actually wanted her to get me off the boat. You didn't want to be on the boat? No, I don't want to be on the boat. So Kayla, you wanted to make nickels and dimes cleaning people's houses. You didn't want to. You know, honestly, I would have just tried to escape to Boston or New York and try to make some shake. Okay. Okay. So when Lena was like, I've got to get out of here. I've got to get off this island at the beginning. I'm like, you know what, sister? Yes. You should leave. Now, I don't know how you're going to do it.

[00:56:18] She'll figure it out. You'll figure it out. She's very resourceful. Right. She was just a troubleshooting queen. And I love that. Yes. She just, she said, I don't know how to do this. I'm going to do it. Right back when we started though. Cause she doesn't get off the island. Yeah. No, she doesn't. I thought that was such an interesting way to end this. Yes. I think part of her journey is she really wanted to get out into the world. And part of this story is getting out into the world and seeing that the world is a horrible place. Yeah. It's terrifying.

[00:56:48] People are criminals. People are shooting at you. People will kill your boyfriend. It'll be a little bit your fault, but people will kill your boyfriend. And kind of, kind of learning to appreciate the peace that the island offers to her. So it's kind of a full circle thing. I don't know if she's satisfied enough to stay there forever, but that felt like the right place for her to at least recover from her adventure. Yeah. Sometimes you got to go back home to heal. Yes. Yes.

[00:57:17] And it's not, you know, I feel like she has more information now. Like she, she's been exposed to real world. She's probably looking at that place much differently. Oh yeah. It felt like she was very much like running from that the whole time. Like I got to get up out of here. And now she's, you know, at the end it's like, actually, maybe I should just maybe take a moment. Recover from. Yes. Not run. Sit. Right. Just sit. Just sit for a second. And it's okay, sister.

[00:57:47] Take some rest. Now that everyone is saved, you have enough money to survive. Just rest. She's. But. Cause she was on go from literally the minute her father died. Like she was on go. She was like, we finna leave the house. We. Yes. Too much. I got to take care of mom. But that's that older daughter. That's that older daughter. That eldest daughter. Yes. Well, she thought she was the eldest daughter. To the eldest daughter. Yeah. Yes. From what she knew. Put that. That's a very like niche thing. Okay.

[00:58:17] A ode to the eldest daughter. For sure. Check that box off. Yeah. With. Within the rum running. Yeah. She just had so much. Oldest daughter coded for sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. She just had so much going on. Like. I think only an eldest daughter would have been able to handle all of that. Yeah. I am an eldest daughter. I'm an only. Well, I'm an only child. So I'm the eldest and also the youngest. But I'm like that. I'm always like. My. My parents and my husband are always like. Can you stop? Like. Can you sit down? Like. Right.

[00:58:47] I'm always doing. It's hard. What are you talking about? It is hard to turn that off. Right. I'm like. It's not possible actually to turn it off. So. It's like. This is who I am. Because you know what? We have two only children here. Kayla and Alex. And then Nisha and I are the eldest daughters. Okay. Yeah. So. We get that energy. A hundred percent. Yes. We definitely understand her. Like. Somebody's got to do it. Right. Who's going to do it? Somebody's going to do it. And if I sit here and wait for you people to do it. It ain't going to get done. We're not planning those goals.

[00:59:17] We're not doing that. Right. How about this? I'll go. And you just stay out the way. We just want action. Yeah. Come along or you can not come along. But don't be in the way. Yeah. Just please don't be in the way. That's really the biggest thing. Well. I mean. I loved this book so much. I think that this definitely has a place within that like Harlem Renaissance 1920s. And it's so unique. Yes. Yeah.

[00:59:46] I need more people to read this. So if you're one of the folks who stuck with us through this whole entire thing and you hadn't read this book and you had no context, I really hope at some point you turned us off to go pick up the book and you're just going to come back. Okay. Because you need to experience this. You're going to have questions. You're going to be shook as we were. And it's really just one of those like good adventures. Like I just felt like we were just on such a good adventure.

[01:00:15] And it was so fast paced. The pacing was great. I loved it. Loved it. Loved it. So thank you for giving us another historical fiction 10. Yes. Okay. Well, what's next? Right. Right. Let's get into it. Are you going to any other locations? Couldn't wait. I couldn't wait. I was going to say I'm going to rest for a while, but y'all know that's not true because I don't do that. Yeah. So what's next?

[01:00:41] I am in the process right now of writing a book set in New York, actually. Seneca Village, which is the free black village that they raised to make Central Park. Yeah. Ashton, you're giving us the niche history. Ashton, feed us. What needs to be done. Yes. What needs to be done. You're doing it. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. And I think this, if it goes the way I hope it will go, this will be my first dual timeline

[01:01:11] kind of thing. I'm going to try that. So, you know, I'm continuing to grow to evolve, you know, see how we can make it work. But that is where my head is at right now. So we'll see what happens. That's amazing. I love that. That's very exciting. I know you're going to eat up that dual timeline. You're going to do your thing with that dual timeline. I love that. We'll be right here waiting and ready. Patiently. Patiently. Because somebody's as patient as we can. Absolutely. It'll be a while.

[01:01:41] And very patiently. Yeah. Take your time. No, please take your time. We do not rush. Yes and no. We do not rush our artists ever. No, we just wanted to know. Yes. Because we're nosy. And now I can look forward to that. That's so exciting. Seneca Village has this. It's like, ugh, just something in the future is coming. And that's really enough. Absolutely. And actually, I think we have one last question that we haven't asked.

[01:02:08] So you are definitely making a name for yourself within this historical fiction space. Like, when we think historical fiction, just know that we think Ashton Lattimore. So that said, who do you look to as like your kind of maybe big four or big three? Yeah. Or your Mount Rushmore maybe. Who's our Mount Rushmore? So Sadeqa Johnson. Yup. Little surprised.

[01:02:38] Right? Little surprised there. Yeah. At all. Victoria Christopher Murray. Fiona Davis, who does – they're all dual timeline. They're all based in New York. So I feel like I'm kind of encroaching a little bit on her space with this next thing. But I love her work. And then Geraldine Brooks, who has written – actually, in all different – they're usually all historical.

[01:03:05] But they, like, jump around from different timelines and different topics. But I've been reading Geraldine Brooks since I was, like, in my early 20s. And, yeah. So I would say those four, if someone's looking for excellent historical fiction, those are who I'd recommend. Very love. All right. See? So y'all have some more recs to go and check out. Correct. I know I do. And I'm going to be honest. Victoria Christopher Murray, TRBG stamp. Sadiqa, TRBG stamp. Okay. Yes. Auto buy. Yes.

[01:03:35] Auto buy. Auto read. I don't need to know nothing. Don't. I prefer it that way. I actually don't even want to know. Yeah. Before I open it. Just give me the book. Yeah. I'll figure it out. Exactly. Well. We want to say just thank you so much for joining us today. We had so much fun. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:04:00] And, again, if you're thinking about picking up Runner, go ahead and get it at your local bookstore. Get the e-book. Do the audio. We had the audio as well. And it was fantastic. Really brought it to life. Made you really feel like you were there. So, this has been another episode of the Reading Black Girls podcast. Like, subscribe, keep up with us. And we'll see you guys next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, y'all. Bye.