In this live recording special, we talk with our mom about the book that changed her relationship to reading, Disappearing Acts by Terry McMillan. She takes us back to the '90s and surprises us with stories we've never heard before...
--- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/realballersread/support[00:00:10] What's up and welcome back to Real Ballers Read. This is our hundredth live recording episode with the most special guest in the world. Our mom, Dr. Pamela Ellis, you know
[00:00:22] Our mom is the core inspiration of Real Ballers Read and we knew that for such a big Miles still in monument of
[00:00:31] Getting to 100 episodes we'd have to bring you on so it's truly an honor to finally have you on the show as
[00:00:37] The best most incredible mom ever our biggest fan of Real Ballers Read the single person who's listened to every episode
[00:00:47] Delivered notes back feedback and is now here on the show as a guest. So welcome mommy. Yes, you love you so much
[00:00:55] Thank you
[00:00:56] No very much for this because I have wanted to be on the show since this inception
[00:01:02] And wasn't sure that I was gonna be invited
[00:01:07] Oh, but I'm really really excited to be here and certainly have
[00:01:14] Learned so much in grown through the show and so
[00:01:19] It's it's great because
[00:01:22] early you're on when I was first thinking about it and you announced that you were doing the show
[00:01:28] I was just like oh I already know what book I'm gonna choose and that has evolved and so
[00:01:36] It's exciting now to be on the show and to actually come with talking about this book
[00:01:43] Which actually came about through listening to one of the episodes oh wow
[00:01:49] Okay, so that was yeah, I was gonna say we'll get to it actually it was the episode
[00:01:56] The name just escaped me as I was about to say it
[00:02:01] The curator oh
[00:02:03] Danny Danny was with Danny
[00:02:06] Danny show with Song of Solomon and it was something that he said and it was when he was talking about
[00:02:15] the conversation with his dad and his parents and fluents and
[00:02:20] just a relationship with reading and in that moment it triggered this book
[00:02:27] disappearing acts because I feel like this is the first book where I actually had a relationship with the characters
[00:02:36] And all the other books that I read prior to they it were transactional and it was reading for
[00:02:45] new information but not really
[00:02:49] Engaging with the characters
[00:02:51] Wow, yeah, so this book came out in
[00:02:54] 88 so I know that's the year you graduated college, so what were you like reading during college and then why why was it that when this book came out
[00:03:04] Those characters were so powerful
[00:03:08] well
[00:03:09] actually in college and
[00:03:13] Even soon after it was again reading for information
[00:03:17] So I was reading books for class
[00:03:20] But not really doing any pleasure reading and I didn't even read this book or really heard about it until I moved to New York City
[00:03:30] Oh
[00:03:32] Here is later because when you're living in Manhattan
[00:03:36] You have to have a book to read if you're riding a subway
[00:03:40] Because you're not gonna be on the subway looking at other people
[00:03:43] And then exactly and just finished graduate school and moved there and
[00:03:52] That's what I mean people were talking about
[00:03:55] Terry Macmillan because she had just come out with waiting to exhale and I think this was around
[00:04:02] 1992 in that time frame and I was
[00:04:07] Newly I was you know just new to New York City
[00:04:14] Living in my own apartment and
[00:04:17] Living I lived in Brooklyn first I lived in New Jersey in East Orange then I lived in Park Slope in Brooklyn
[00:04:27] And as a single person you talked about books there
[00:04:32] And so
[00:04:34] And I felt like wow I am part of a literary community in a sense and I
[00:04:41] I never forget going to see Terry Macmillan at the bookstore on fifth avenue
[00:04:49] And
[00:04:50] It was crowded. I mean it was just
[00:04:54] Feel to the brims with all these black people and they had a copy of her book
[00:05:01] for you know her to sign and when she walked across the stage because she was actually on the top level in the balcony
[00:05:09] And reading from waiting to exhale and all these people had their books out for her to sign and she read from the first
[00:05:18] Chapter of the book and when she saw those people she was just like amazed that so many people came out to see her
[00:05:26] And that was my first literary event and that was in 92
[00:05:32] Wow, yeah, it's not ready for these stories
[00:05:35] Oh, I wasn't either
[00:05:37] I mean especially especially since disappearing oxes set in New York right for you to be like walking around
[00:05:42] You know potentially passing a sore or a for ankle and
[00:05:45] Like oh, you know these are just these just real people and real stories in the same
[00:05:49] That we're living in so it's like there's the literary community of people that were at that event
[00:05:55] But then there was just a whole spirit of I'm in a place that is written about that have some
[00:05:59] stories exactly yeah, yeah, it was pretty amazing and
[00:06:06] This book always stood out for me because it was one of her earlier books and I remember hearing about her being a
[00:06:15] Professor at University of Arizona
[00:06:18] I had just moved to New York City from Phoenix and I thought wow, I've never knew her
[00:06:23] It's not like you know
[00:06:26] Even that close to one another but still
[00:06:29] Because I really wasn't reading books like this and I would say this was one of the
[00:06:37] First books that really kind of started that genre of
[00:06:41] Black authors to write about urban you know every day kind of matters
[00:06:48] That's what was so exciting about it because I thought you know in these people
[00:06:54] I saw
[00:06:55] Other friends others that I could relate to in that same age range
[00:07:02] So wait, so tell me a little bit more about this literary
[00:07:05] Call of the community being single and I'm really curious. I would have never guessed that so like you're going on dates
[00:07:12] And they're talking about books or like you and your friends or is it a book club?
[00:07:18] It's not a podcast
[00:07:20] It's no it wasn't a park that back then and I guess it's what a bit of a book club
[00:07:25] I never forget I went to this event when I was living in New York City
[00:07:31] It was hosted by the editor of Essence magazine
[00:07:36] She had an apartment in Brooklyn and she invited other
[00:07:42] Black women to come to her home. We talked about books we talked about
[00:07:48] Just every day kind of happenings and I even have a job at the time
[00:07:54] Remember that much about it because I was just in New York looking for work
[00:07:59] And it was called
[00:08:02] It was called a circle and I just remember being part of a circle of other young black women
[00:08:11] And so that's
[00:08:14] What I mean in terms of that literary community because to be in a place where
[00:08:19] We're talking about books we're talking about everyday issues. We're talking about
[00:08:24] Being single we're talking about relationships. You know our whole host of things and the key
[00:08:30] Rule of the group was that you couldn't do any male bashing
[00:08:34] That's not what it was about at all and
[00:08:38] What you served was fruits vegetable juices. It was like a vegan experience
[00:08:44] And it was just it was amazing
[00:08:48] It was amazing and so
[00:08:50] That's what it was like for me in terms of living in New York at that time and the other Black women were a couple of them were corporate
[00:09:00] But they were mostly entrepreneurs
[00:09:04] Yeah, yeah, that's really not yours. Yeah
[00:09:08] Wow and you know what so crazy is when you look back on this era of novels
[00:09:14] Like one side of the history
[00:09:17] From black men's point of view is they feel like it was all male bashing right and it's crazy because like I think that was a creative
[00:09:25] Tique a way into exhale and the kind of purple obviously
[00:09:31] But what were those like gender dynamics like back in the day because yeah from our time now
[00:09:39] I mean we have we have them now, but it seemed like black men were very
[00:09:44] It's a cure
[00:09:46] Well
[00:09:47] You know I think it's they it but a lot of it was like it is today
[00:09:52] When you talk about things in college where there are disagreements
[00:09:58] What are the things that happen in terms of the snapchat? I think on your campus
[00:10:04] Well
[00:10:09] Yeah, there was a lot of those kind of dynamics
[00:10:14] Back then we just didn't have social media and the news didn't spread in the same way because of you know everyone
[00:10:24] I mean we didn't have phones and
[00:10:27] still you would hear rumors and
[00:10:31] people would be talking and it's still seeing that
[00:10:34] There was this disconnect in terms of communication between
[00:10:40] black men and black women and so
[00:10:45] It was pretty much similar to how it is today. Yeah, and as far as dating you really only dated people
[00:10:55] That you would meet maybe you bet them on the subway
[00:10:58] Maybe it was yeah
[00:11:01] Tell us about that in the market. I thought you were really books
[00:11:05] But I'm just saying yeah, the other thing that they had at that time
[00:11:11] Was the ads and the newspaper and there were ads and the news paper where you could say that you saw someone
[00:11:18] I saw you on the subway and missed you we were at the Roosevelt station
[00:11:23] You know
[00:11:24] And that would be in the news
[00:11:28] Wow, you know someone to open up that newspaper and be like oh
[00:11:32] They're talking about me. That's very I tell you I love reading those ads because one of the first
[00:11:39] Businesses I wanted to start was a dating service and it would be feeding for lunch
[00:11:46] And so yeah, I used to love
[00:11:49] Because I thought they were so creative in terms of the way they were written
[00:11:54] And what people would say about themselves and it was just it was just a really interesting time because everything was analog
[00:12:03] Yeah, so yeah
[00:12:07] That's wow
[00:12:09] Really wow. Yeah, it was for real
[00:12:13] So what we like
[00:12:16] When we started reading disappearing ox
[00:12:18] Myel started first and he was like just read the first
[00:12:22] Hey
[00:12:24] And see how see how the language how the characters are really coming to life. Yeah, just off of their first two chapters and
[00:12:33] On this point of just the disconnect the challenges between black men and women I think there's something so
[00:12:41] powerful and almost spooky about how well Terry McMillan can like bring these characters to life
[00:12:47] Just through words on pages
[00:12:49] But you were saying before how you found them so relatable in different ways
[00:12:53] So I'd love to just hear more about what it was exactly about disappearing ox and the characters within the book that
[00:13:01] Resinated with you. You know it's interesting because I remember them being very relatable
[00:13:09] Back then but reading at this time a wrong thing like I forgot about this
[00:13:14] I didn't even know this was in the book
[00:13:18] And I think you know like the woman Porsche
[00:13:21] Everyone usually has a friend like that and I had a friend
[00:13:28] I
[00:13:30] I
[00:13:32] Not like they wanted to know who it is, but
[00:13:36] You know I had a friend from high school who had dated a married man
[00:13:41] Oh, and so you know that was the story with Porsche and how you know
[00:13:47] She ended up with author even though in having a child even though he was married
[00:13:53] And so
[00:13:55] That's what I mean in terms of relating to the different characters in this story and you would have
[00:14:03] Those groups where one person would be married but everyone else would still be single
[00:14:09] Even the age ranges and so it those types of
[00:14:16] Demographic
[00:14:18] characteristics and just what she said in terms of
[00:14:23] You know when Franklin would be speaking he would talk about some of the
[00:14:28] Dynamics in relationships between women because I often not often but there was a time when
[00:14:37] I was not seeing anyone it's like I was never really dating
[00:14:42] But other friends were dating and I felt like when they were I didn't see them
[00:14:47] Because they would always be you know with their partner and we didn't really get a chance to do things together
[00:14:56] And it was this
[00:14:58] Feeling of being an outsider because I wasn't dating
[00:15:02] And so that was something that I felt was relatable and reading it this time around is like oh yeah
[00:15:10] I could see that but now I'm on the other side of it because I'm
[00:15:15] You know 30 years removed from that period of when I was single
[00:15:21] My girlfriend was dating and I wasn't in feeling you know outside
[00:15:27] Out and outside or so yeah
[00:15:30] So that was that was a part of the book I really
[00:15:34] Enjoy two with seeing hours or they're acting with her girl
[00:15:38] Girl friends, you know for sure clawed it and what was the other was there?
[00:15:42] It's Budwek
[00:15:43] Marie yes, right um
[00:15:46] And yeah to have you build on on that to is really interesting
[00:15:52] And I might have asked this a hard-to-time prior, but I'm still just as curious like
[00:15:58] How did y'all meet up what did y'all do?
[00:16:02] Are you coordinating all on the telephone like boss conversations right like you you can have like a group call
[00:16:10] Right you couldn't have any of those things that is really interesting because
[00:16:15] The only time you could talk to someone is when you were at your job in the office or you were at home
[00:16:23] Because that because everything was a landline and so
[00:16:28] You would let's say if you meet someone at an event
[00:16:33] then
[00:16:34] You would just talk to them when they read home or at work
[00:16:39] I give you a great example
[00:16:41] um
[00:16:43] Is clean whom you met the un and I didn't date but I met him at the museum the natural history museum in New York City
[00:16:51] He was volunteering
[00:16:54] with some kids in the after school program
[00:16:58] he worked in the man-hat and burrow presidents office at the time
[00:17:04] And so he lived in the Bronx
[00:17:08] I lived in Manhattan on the West side
[00:17:11] I didn't know this at the time but when I was living in Brooklyn
[00:17:15] he would ride on the train with me down the Brooklyn and then take the train all the way back up to the Bronx
[00:17:22] You know
[00:17:24] And yeah
[00:17:26] How could you even know
[00:17:28] Do an end
[00:17:29] No until the
[00:17:29] Wow and you know
[00:17:32] Hold that's the only way I would know he got back home
[00:17:36] So I mean
[00:17:37] That's you know, that's how it was and
[00:17:40] I only talked to him when he was at work or I was at work
[00:17:45] You know during the day
[00:17:47] Both be at our jobs
[00:17:50] And the other interesting thing back then too
[00:17:54] Was that every New York City corner had a bank of phone booth
[00:18:00] Because that's where you could call when you were not at home there were phone booth
[00:18:05] and when it was
[00:18:08] You know in the afternoon it would be hard to find a phone to use
[00:18:13] Because all these bank phone
[00:18:16] Would be filled up with people making phone calls
[00:18:20] And
[00:18:22] That's that's just how it was and
[00:18:25] It didn't even seem like an inconvenience as it sounds like
[00:18:29] Describe it was not an inconvenience at all. I think it made things easier
[00:18:36] Because they had two phone numbers for you your home and your work
[00:18:41] And that was the only time they could reach you is when you were in one of those places
[00:18:46] But now you're accessible all the time
[00:18:52] Yeah, but that was how it worked and
[00:18:56] There were people in my building that I would meet you know where I lived
[00:19:04] And that was only if they were in the elevator or outside and found the building
[00:19:09] Where was you and your girlfriend's like hang out most would it be going to get drinks or
[00:19:16] Yeah, what are y'all what y'all do?
[00:19:19] usually going to
[00:19:21] restaurant and
[00:19:23] back then
[00:19:25] first Fridays
[00:19:27] was around and
[00:19:29] That would usually be at a place like Beesmith in New York City and I don't know if it's still
[00:19:36] First Friday first Friday was just the first Friday of the month happy hour for black professionals
[00:19:44] Yeah, I went to one in Columbus recently
[00:19:47] Yeah, but they still have morale, but
[00:19:50] Beesmith in New York City was a really popular place for them
[00:19:54] And so you could go there on a Friday after work and that's how you could meet people hang out
[00:20:03] Yep
[00:20:05] So it was definitely different
[00:20:08] I was really interested
[00:20:12] I'm curious
[00:20:14] You know given that this is you as a
[00:20:18] Young person in New York
[00:20:19] Four years out of college. You're adulting in a way, right and something that was so
[00:20:25] palpable for me in disappearing acts is in particular Franklin still coming in the terms with his relationship with his parents
[00:20:32] Oh yeah, so I'm really curious what was your relationship? Well like with your parents when you were in New York, right like how
[00:20:39] Were you even being so far
[00:20:42] From you know your parents from your family after being in California and now in New York
[00:20:48] Did you still feel their presence in you? Did you still you know how did you stay connected with them?
[00:20:54] What was your growing relationship with your parents like at that time?
[00:20:59] That's interesting because I don't even know if I can recall much about it
[00:21:05] I talk to my mother on a regular basis by phone usually on the weekends
[00:21:13] But I
[00:21:15] Definitely didn't have any relationship with my father at all
[00:21:21] Because that was usually through just hearing about him from my mother and
[00:21:26] And I think the thing that I probably recall about it is
[00:21:34] New York was such a foreign place to them and especially from my mother she had never been to New York before and
[00:21:41] All she knew about it would be what she read in the news or saw on TV
[00:21:47] and so
[00:21:50] It was
[00:21:52] Just I would think of foreign
[00:21:56] Experience for her and for me
[00:22:00] I don't even really think I thought about you know that dynamic in terms of
[00:22:09] What our relationship was like during that time
[00:22:13] I don't know I hadn't thought about it really and
[00:22:17] When I was reading the book this time around I certainly noticed the parental
[00:22:24] Relationships but I don't know if I was really processing it
[00:22:29] During that time when I was reading the book because for me it was more about the
[00:22:36] Relationship dynamics of all these single people his I was single at the time
[00:22:42] Yeah, right I didn't like I wasn't really going to visit with my family
[00:22:50] When I was in New York I would go during the holidays
[00:22:54] But that would be the extent of it and so it was just a different kind of relationship I think back then
[00:23:02] For sure but also too. I mean as you
[00:23:05] became
[00:23:06] Apparent yourself and then started raising kids like how did your
[00:23:10] You know your relationship with your mom and your dad change even through that process
[00:23:17] Well
[00:23:18] Both of my parents passed away when you guys were really young and so I think the
[00:23:25] thing that I thought most about in terms of my relationship with them is just that
[00:23:31] I had an appreciation for them in a different way when I became a parent
[00:23:39] Because there were certainly disagreements I had and I felt like my mom was
[00:23:47] Overprotective and
[00:23:50] really didn't
[00:23:53] Want me to leave home or anything like that and I felt like that was just because
[00:23:59] You know she lived through the depression and so many other
[00:24:03] Errors
[00:24:07] My mother was born in 21. Yeah, okay
[00:24:11] 21 so she's not even part of she preceded the silent generation
[00:24:17] Which was born in 29
[00:24:20] Who
[00:24:22] I don't know yeah, I don't really know
[00:24:25] Yeah, make me great as a student right here. I you know basically like both world wars
[00:24:31] Yes, yes, yes, exactly
[00:24:39] Yeah
[00:24:41] Yeah, so this is different and the thing about it too is there was such a wide age gap between me
[00:24:48] And my parents then I had then my age gap between me and Jan
[00:24:55] I had Jan at 29 but my mother had me at 45
[00:25:02] So she you know thought things differently and you know was already a group, you know
[00:25:09] A grandmother's laughter. I was born
[00:25:13] Right so yeah
[00:25:16] Man you had Jan at 29
[00:25:18] Yeah, so that's real different
[00:25:21] That's yeah, yeah, yeah, right above yeah
[00:25:27] So I think I just had an appreciation for them
[00:25:31] Once I became a mom
[00:25:34] Yeah, so
[00:25:36] You know, I don't know why I've never I actually did either but
[00:25:40] You know, you you gave us the love of reading but who gave it to you
[00:25:47] Actually my mother
[00:25:49] But again when I was listening to Danese interview
[00:25:52] I thought about the fact that her own experience with reading was transactional
[00:25:59] Because she couldn't
[00:26:01] Finish school she left at eighth grade
[00:26:04] And what she used to do was read the dictionary
[00:26:09] And that's how she would learn words and she would comment about reading the dictionary
[00:26:15] and
[00:26:17] That's transactional. That's not really
[00:26:20] Oh, yeah, you're reading it's not reading it's reading for information
[00:26:24] It's not necessarily reading where you have characters and your building relationships with characters
[00:26:32] What about how her reading the Bible?
[00:26:35] She did and
[00:26:38] I don't know how you know
[00:26:41] I don't know about just kind of
[00:26:45] What that relationship was like in terms of if she was studying characters
[00:26:51] I know that she had certain scriptures that she relied on and would recite regularly
[00:26:59] But I don't recall her reading
[00:27:03] Talking about characters from the Bible in any way and a lot of the books
[00:27:08] I know right what she did read Joe
[00:27:11] He did read Joe and talked about him a lot that was when she was in a wheelchair
[00:27:17] She used to read Joe a lot
[00:27:20] But I do recall when I was growing up we had a lot of reference books
[00:27:26] So like we had the encyclopedias
[00:27:29] There was the black encyclopedia that they used to sell door to door
[00:27:34] So we had those we had those and we also had
[00:27:41] Harra scope books because my mother's just really into harra scopes and so there was this book called Linda Goodman's Love Signs
[00:27:50] So we had that
[00:27:56] I think the reading really was really came from my mom and the other person that came from was Tony
[00:28:04] Yeah, Tony. Wow
[00:28:06] because she I remember used to love fairy tales
[00:28:10] And in our library in elementary school they would have the blue fairy tale book the pink fairy tale book
[00:28:17] And she would read all of these books
[00:28:20] These fairy tales and she read a lot of romance novels
[00:28:23] I really never got into them
[00:28:26] But I would sometimes read them because she would talk about how good these fairy tales were
[00:28:32] So I read some of those but it was really still not about me
[00:28:38] Reading for myself
[00:28:40] Was reading through her influence and it was reading for information and I would read the harra scopes because that's what people did in the 70s
[00:28:49] And they were interesting to read
[00:28:52] I used to read comics because they were funny and I love the archies
[00:28:58] But that was that was about it and the rest of it was really reading for school
[00:29:03] It was reading for school and
[00:29:07] So what was the first book though?
[00:29:09] Was this the book that changed it or was there like one really?
[00:29:13] Nobody there was no book in school not that I can recall and you know
[00:29:18] I thought about this countless times as I've listened to your podcast and people come on and talk about you know
[00:29:26] Their first book and I think it was really this book for me
[00:29:31] disappearing acts in of course
[00:29:33] I would I read waiting to exhal in a red
[00:29:38] Mama that was the other story from
[00:29:41] Materi Macmill and I think it was those three books at the time and reading all of those and I felt most connected
[00:29:48] to disappearing acts just because of her you know talking about
[00:29:54] Being in single in New York City and then
[00:29:58] After that it was baby more Campbell books. It was Ealy and Harris, you know
[00:30:04] I loved his books as well
[00:30:06] And every and I would just go into the bookstore to the black book section and
[00:30:14] Just whatever was there. I love sister soldier
[00:30:18] But it was those authors and then I don't know if I showed this to you guys
[00:30:25] But this bookmark that I have because I do collect bookmarks is from Marcus books in Oakland
[00:30:33] And this it was established in 1960 they had an Oakland in a San Francisco location
[00:30:40] And when I moved to the Bay Area that was where I used to go for black books what Marcus
[00:30:48] Yeah, I think that's where she lives now
[00:30:51] She doesn't live in the Bay Area and I've had a chance to see her speak
[00:30:58] And I don't know if you know but her son graduate from Stanford and when I went to
[00:31:06] I think it was the year after I graduated I had gone back for
[00:31:13] Nikki our net graduation and that's when her son graduated
[00:31:18] So I saw her then but I have to tell you guys quickly this crazy crazy story
[00:31:26] There we go
[00:31:28] Back in the day the links of San Francisco used to have a literary event where they would invite authors to come and speak
[00:31:39] And so on the panel this year and I think it was around 19
[00:31:46] Maybe it was
[00:31:48] 1999 around that time 1998 1999
[00:31:52] Anyway on the panel was
[00:31:56] BB more Campbell if I'm not mistaken in Terry Macmillan
[00:32:01] And there was one other
[00:32:04] Panelist this whale so they had them there and they were talking and
[00:32:10] Taking questions from the audience and
[00:32:14] I don't know what happened but somebody in the audience
[00:32:18] asked how can I get my kids to read because I can't get my kids to read
[00:32:27] And BB more Campbell had something eloquent to say as always someone else did
[00:32:33] And then Terry Macmillan leaned back
[00:32:37] She said
[00:32:39] Well if they see you open a damn book maybe they will read
[00:32:43] Oh, it was love
[00:32:46] Everybody in the audience was just kind of hushed
[00:32:51] It was a nervous laughter
[00:32:56] No one really knew how to respond food and she was serious and she went on a rant
[00:33:03] And
[00:33:05] I mean they kind of shut it down after that
[00:33:09] Yeah, and
[00:33:11] It just kind of ended and they said you know the authors will be in the back to sign books. Yeah, that's kind of great
[00:33:19] Sounds like
[00:33:21] But yeah, but I know
[00:33:25] Yeah, and
[00:33:27] Yeah, and the thing about it is I actually hosted on LinkedIn about that just two weeks ago
[00:33:33] I didn't tell the story and say the words that she used
[00:33:37] But there was an article about
[00:33:41] You know parents complain a lot about kids being on their phone
[00:33:45] They're on their phones because they see their parents on their phones and so if parents put their phones down
[00:33:52] So will kids and that's really what Barry Macmillan was saying when she said that it was just like parents need to read
[00:34:00] The see them reading and then they will read more
[00:34:05] So that was her point and I never forgot that when she said it
[00:34:14] Do you remember what were the books
[00:34:16] That you were reading when we were kids?
[00:34:19] By I remember seeing you read but I just went down on right oh goodness. It was really
[00:34:27] a
[00:34:29] A lot of books similar to this you know in terms of
[00:34:36] The books um just black authors yeah really black authors and
[00:34:43] I recalled a really popular book that was out was black pearls. It was really a daily devotional
[00:34:50] And I love that just as a small daily read for inspiration
[00:34:57] But it was usually some novel by a black author because I would always you know go in the book store and just
[00:35:07] Look for what was there what was new and reading through it and
[00:35:12] Just reading it from there
[00:35:15] um
[00:35:16] I'm about to go on my Pamela art now too. Okay. The black novels no I'm just saying like
[00:35:23] I got to I feel like this definitely a set of fire up just
[00:35:29] Your entertainment
[00:35:31] Tane honestly and just really funny writing and
[00:35:37] I've been saying I want it to get into novels but I feel like these are so
[00:35:42] Approachable and just easy to read yeah, you know bebe more Campbell's books
[00:35:49] I read all of her books. I love her writing and I remember
[00:35:55] When you guys were growing up
[00:35:58] One of the books that she had written was based in Los Angeles and it was about
[00:36:05] Blacks in the corporate space and there were you know relationships
[00:36:12] That were in a woven through those experience but just that whole dynamic around corporate
[00:36:18] Politics I was dealing with at the time was the relevant and I love that and then
[00:36:26] Soon after that another book that came out that she wrote was a round mental help
[00:36:32] And I think that was your last
[00:36:34] novel it was still a novel. Yeah, it was still a novel and so
[00:36:39] Those were you know the authors then and the books that I was just really excited to read and
[00:36:49] Since I've been an entrepreneur. I think it's been more
[00:36:53] Nonfiction right a lot more nonfiction than novels and this was great to pick up again
[00:37:02] And reread because there was you know moments when I read it
[00:37:06] Well, I just can't put it down even though I know I have something else to do and that's what novels do
[00:37:13] Because there's that story line and you can't just put them down and come back to them later
[00:37:20] Like you can with nonfiction does with nonfiction is just reference so you can
[00:37:26] You know
[00:37:27] Put your timer on and say I'm just gonna read for 20 minutes
[00:37:30] You'll get something and you'd be done and you can come back and it won't matter
[00:37:34] But with novels it's a little different it's a little different
[00:37:39] So
[00:37:42] I'm curious with just your like burgeoning like confidence comfort as a reader in the 90s like how that
[00:37:49] Started to inform
[00:37:51] Just like your research and like you're schooling right because you continued on to
[00:37:56] Get a PhD in education right you're raising us and so I'm even just seeing how
[00:38:02] You're reading practice and this like literary community as you've been talking about
[00:38:08] What's kind of like the key cultivator of how you're raising us
[00:38:12] What you were doing and your PhD in higher education?
[00:38:15] I'm just curious how you see all those things related right
[00:38:19] Wow, I don't even know if I have
[00:38:22] Connect them all in that way and
[00:38:25] I do know that even through my doctorate program and
[00:38:32] When we lived in Chicago when we've lived anywhere
[00:38:36] I've always wanted to
[00:38:39] Stay connected with literary events and stay part of a community of readers and
[00:38:47] I never forget when we were doing our doctorate program
[00:38:52] John McWater came to the books you know, and
[00:38:56] We went to see if maybe you have a novel out
[00:39:00] But the fact that he was going to be at the bookstore
[00:39:04] I wanted to make sure that I took you guys to be in that space and
[00:39:10] When we were in Ohio it was going to see
[00:39:15] You know, BB more Campbell. She was at Miami and just you know being in the presence of
[00:39:24] authors because one of the dreams that I always had
[00:39:29] Was that I wanted to be an author and
[00:39:34] I remember when I would go in the bookstore you see these books and you just like wow this person wrote a book
[00:39:40] And you read through the pages you think like wow anybody
[00:39:44] You know
[00:39:46] You know
[00:39:48] That was my inspiration. It was my inspiration
[00:39:51] And of course when you're in those spaces you're gonna see events that they have going on and
[00:39:56] Just stay and connect it with those events and so
[00:40:01] I
[00:40:03] Just saw a part in parcel of who I am as a person and as an adult
[00:40:09] Because as a child, I really didn't have exposure to those events at all
[00:40:13] It was only in my adulthood
[00:40:16] that I went to those kinds of events and
[00:40:20] That's who I identified
[00:40:23] And part of community wise
[00:40:25] Yeah, now you're you're really really
[00:40:31] Underrated storyteller and I think while you do have a non-space space fiction book
[00:40:39] We all know I a novel
[00:40:43] Would be even better and so I'm gonna ask you if you wrote a novel what era of your life
[00:40:51] Would you want to write about or like base it around
[00:40:56] Actually, I would probably base it around my adolescence in teen years
[00:41:04] It's all wow because that is that is probably
[00:41:09] the most difficult period
[00:41:13] And it may be because I
[00:41:18] Work every day with teens and so going back to
[00:41:25] Understand to on earth
[00:41:29] Certain feelings it might
[00:41:32] It may be pretty cathartic as well to write from that time period because that was a
[00:41:41] A difficult time and so
[00:41:45] Writing about that period I think
[00:41:48] Well, I would have not guessed that I this
[00:41:51] Really what would you have thought oh no I mean, I don't know I mean yeah, right
[00:41:59] Hmm
[00:42:00] I do think your PhD
[00:42:04] I mean just because I was around you know I'm saying it was like
[00:42:09] Exactly, you know
[00:42:11] I got to have the real funny kid you know, but yeah
[00:42:15] Yeah, because it just seems
[00:42:18] Or I do but I mean the teenage
[00:42:20] Man, I'm even 10 times more fascinated about about that because you were teen
[00:42:27] 70s 80s yeah
[00:42:29] to the 80s and that was just such a
[00:42:34] Different time
[00:42:36] then now and
[00:42:38] even with
[00:42:40] I just remember the
[00:42:42] Stress around
[00:42:46] Going out with friends
[00:42:48] because
[00:42:50] Spending the night at someone's else's home, you know
[00:42:52] I'm not did not want me to do that
[00:42:54] But in junior high I met
[00:42:58] a friend who lived at a distance
[00:43:01] Because I went to a school outside of my neighborhood
[00:43:04] and
[00:43:05] She would invite me to spend a night at her home
[00:43:10] And that was a lot of tension
[00:43:13] Right now home for me to be able to do that it was
[00:43:17] Let's go
[00:43:19] It turned out well
[00:43:22] But the other thing about it and I'll even think I've ever talked about this before
[00:43:30] Her mom
[00:43:32] Was with another woman
[00:43:34] And that was part of I think the issue
[00:43:38] And just nervousness around it and at that time
[00:43:44] They couldn't be married
[00:43:46] But they lived together and people knew
[00:43:50] That these women lived together and
[00:43:54] In there was a daughter a young child in the home
[00:43:59] And so
[00:44:01] It was that I think
[00:44:04] That was you know really part of it
[00:44:07] When was the first time you left Tennessee?
[00:44:11] Moved away? No just to travel
[00:44:13] Oh, travel probably at four or five
[00:44:17] Because my sisters lived in California
[00:44:20] And how's when you wait for the first time? Yeah
[00:44:23] Yeah
[00:44:24] Yeah so I would go and spend the summers with them because
[00:44:28] My mother wanted to make sure I knew them
[00:44:31] Because they were much older and had moved away from home
[00:44:34] And so in order for me to know them and have a relationship with them she wanted me to
[00:44:41] And you and you talked to bus every time? Yes, we did
[00:44:45] Actually, no, we started flying when we first went but when my mother
[00:44:51] Started going with us we took the bus because she would not fly
[00:44:55] And it was only when she had to come back home on short notice from the summer that she flew
[00:45:03] And that was an occasion because everyone had to get dressed up to fly
[00:45:08] Really yeah
[00:45:11] Yeah
[00:45:22] Just wanted to retweet mom said about your storytelling powers
[00:45:26] How incredible this novel will be you know when you write it
[00:45:31] You're even a short even a short story
[00:45:34] Give us that short story
[00:45:36] Exactly
[00:45:38] You know could even transcribe along these mics just like you know, but
[00:45:44] But you know I want to
[00:45:47] Transition as well to a few things that you said just around being an entrepreneur and
[00:45:53] Working with teens
[00:45:57] Because I'm sure you've had some you you might have had some Terry McMillan moments where you've had to like
[00:46:02] Talk with parents about you know also being readers to
[00:46:08] Get their kids to read yes, no maybe so no that's not there well maybe not that wild but
[00:46:16] I'm just curious like you know how you have
[00:46:20] Transition from being a parent who raised their kids as readers to also
[00:46:26] Trying to like inspire that same energy and commitment in other parents through your work
[00:46:31] Oh wow
[00:46:34] I certainly write about it in my book and I talk about it and
[00:46:39] With each parent that starts in our program we send them a book
[00:46:45] As a way to suddenly you know say
[00:46:49] Here's something for you two in terms of reading and showing your
[00:46:56] child that you read and
[00:47:01] I don't think that
[00:47:04] Parents sometimes
[00:47:06] Even think about it as showing their child that they're a reader is whale because
[00:47:12] They feel like they're busy
[00:47:14] It have so much going on and I've found that sometimes we as adults collect books
[00:47:21] But we're not necessarily readers and so
[00:47:26] That can be a bit sensitive because I think that as adults we don't want our
[00:47:32] Parenting to be questioned or judged in any way and so I
[00:47:39] Have to be
[00:47:42] Careful I think in terms of how I say it and what I always say to them is that I'm saying it in love
[00:47:51] And it's not judgment. It's too partner with them so that
[00:47:58] We're both supporting
[00:48:00] their teen success
[00:48:02] And so that's how I
[00:48:05] Talk about it when I do
[00:48:07] Yeah
[00:48:10] So before we
[00:48:14] Give our last round of questions. I want to invite our massive audience and feel the
[00:48:19] We're going to invite our audience a lot of go here. So do you all have any or what ask need me?
[00:48:26] Pamela love hearing the stories about New York
[00:48:30] The
[00:48:31] Especially the way you and the 80s and 90s the dating scene was
[00:48:37] It's arounding like putting ads in you see somebody at the coffee shop
[00:48:41] They're just like hey I saw this person with a red hat loop hand
[00:48:45] Little nice beard this skin tone
[00:48:49] So I'm curious what do you miss most about New York City so I want you to think about a memory and then talk about what you miss most about it
[00:48:59] Oh
[00:49:01] actually
[00:49:02] I think I remember
[00:49:05] What I miss most was probably the freedom
[00:49:09] Freedom to be
[00:49:12] whoever I want it to be in a sense and
[00:49:16] I think that was something about going there at that age and
[00:49:23] being able to
[00:49:27] live without working you know and to
[00:49:33] Just find a place and not have to worry about it being a certain size or being an any kind of way
[00:49:40] So it was that freedom
[00:49:42] I think is what I miss because after you get
[00:49:47] a certain age and do certain things you have children you're raising a family
[00:49:52] You get in more deeply into adulthood
[00:49:55] You have responsibilities that keep you from having that freedom in the same way
[00:50:01] because you have to
[00:50:05] Consider others and what the
[00:50:10] ramifications may be for them
[00:50:12] Because you are being free and so that would probably be the thing that I miss most. I don't think it takes away
[00:50:21] from
[00:50:22] my experience now in any way but I do remember the freedom and
[00:50:29] just the way I would meet people you know just people in my building where I lived and
[00:50:37] Could just on a whim say okay let's go out and let's go to the Afghan restaurant around the corner
[00:50:44] You know just and it wasn't anything where I had to plan
[00:50:49] Foreign advance or think about oh man, you know I got to do this or that
[00:50:55] It was just
[00:50:57] Pure freedom in a sense
[00:50:59] and so that would probably be what I miss most about New York City vignan
[00:51:06] Yeah, I also think that
[00:51:09] My time in Chicago have had such freedom because I'm so far away from family
[00:51:14] yeah, and my only responsibility is myself
[00:51:18] Yeah, so
[00:51:20] Learning that you lived in New York City by yourself
[00:51:24] Brooklyn specifically yeah and your sisters are in California grew up in
[00:51:30] Man, it's Memphis, Tennessee
[00:51:32] Yeah, so
[00:51:37] Which follow-ups? I was gonna ask you
[00:51:40] If you were to write a novel and then miles asked a question
[00:51:45] So I wanted to ask a question or surrounding that so if you were to write a novel right
[00:51:50] Which country would it be about and why I think it was I think it was still be based in the US that's what I
[00:52:03] No best and the thing that I appreciate about
[00:52:11] Fiction is that there is that sense of it being real
[00:52:18] And you feel like you are there because they know so much about it and have so much research on it
[00:52:24] And I just feel like I could still be creative if I
[00:52:30] Placed it in a space where I've been and know more intimately
[00:52:36] Then doing research on Amsterdam and basing it there
[00:52:40] That's a good idea
[00:52:43] You're at
[00:52:45] Italy the friends
[00:52:47] No, that's kind of cool
[00:52:50] I love it and I always thought that I would live in Amsterdam at some point and so
[00:52:58] I would still place it here
[00:53:01] They know
[00:53:04] How are you any questions?
[00:53:06] Scrape hearing you talk about your
[00:53:09] experiences and relationship with this book
[00:53:13] When I heard that you chose disappearing acts it made me think of
[00:53:17] Watching waiting to exhale with you. Oh, yeah, um and
[00:53:25] I've been thinking a lot about the ways that I've really looked up to you in terms of
[00:53:33] the way that you don't let anyone else define you
[00:53:37] or police how you act as a black woman and
[00:53:43] So I guess I just wanted to like ask a question of
[00:53:47] How do you
[00:53:50] Find ways to like uplift yourself and not let other peoples
[00:53:57] Words or perceptions of you define who you are
[00:54:01] Wow
[00:54:03] Yeah, so
[00:54:07] um
[00:54:09] for me it's
[00:54:12] Usually staying grounded in the word
[00:54:17] and
[00:54:20] That's one thing and so
[00:54:24] Growing up my mother you know, she would recite usually the same scriptures over and over
[00:54:31] And still today I keep a scripture in my heart
[00:54:36] and that certainly
[00:54:39] keeps me going when things
[00:54:43] just may not be
[00:54:46] What I would hope that they would be or when I'm feeling
[00:54:51] worried about something
[00:54:55] the other part of that is staying in prayer as well
[00:55:01] and so that's something
[00:55:03] that helps me when
[00:55:07] I'm just in
[00:55:10] Just not in a good space
[00:55:13] Also it's
[00:55:16] It's knowing that I have
[00:55:19] A community I have support
[00:55:23] and you know there have been times when I have been
[00:55:27] And no could have been I've been really down and felt like you know just can't go on
[00:55:34] And when I feel that way I think about
[00:55:39] How
[00:55:41] You know how the three of you would feel if I wasn't here anymore
[00:55:47] How would
[00:55:50] Other friends my siblings would feel
[00:55:54] And that helps me to snap out of it
[00:55:58] and I think that we can all go into these
[00:56:03] Go into a spiral you know with our thoughts or feeling like
[00:56:08] Things just aren't working out
[00:56:10] and even in this book you know miles you mentioned this earlier on that one of the things about the books was the inner dialogue
[00:56:19] And in that inner dialogue you have thousands of crazy thoughts all the time
[00:56:26] and so those three things help me to
[00:56:31] You know in the words of
[00:56:33] Sure in moons struck snap out of it you know when she says that
[00:56:39] So that's yeah
[00:56:42] That that would be what it is
[00:56:45] Mm-hmm to build on that I wanted to ask
[00:56:50] What do you love most about yourself
[00:56:55] What do I love most about myself
[00:56:58] Would be my spirit
[00:57:01] My spirit and
[00:57:04] You all know I love smiling
[00:57:07] Mario you probably see me smile a thousand in one times
[00:57:11] And it would be my spirit and
[00:57:16] the fact that
[00:57:18] Even when there are times when I'm feeling down
[00:57:23] Only the closest people may know that about me because I'll still have a smile
[00:57:29] I'll still have trust in the Lord in my heart and
[00:57:33] I just remember my third great teacher who's the right quotes on the board all the time
[00:57:40] One of the quotes she wrote on the board that I never forgot was a smile is contagious
[00:57:47] And I just
[00:57:50] Always love that quote and I always felt like
[00:57:54] No matter what I can give someone a smile
[00:57:57] And it can brighten their day because the moment I do it it brightens mine
[00:58:03] And so that would be
[00:58:07] What it is um yeah
[00:58:10] I think
[00:58:12] I love most about you
[00:58:16] Your sense of humor. I don't know if I that's the thing I love most but it also underrated
[00:58:24] very witty very clear use to
[00:58:28] Play the daughters down recess and all that you know
[00:58:31] Not folks
[00:58:35] But yeah I really just love
[00:58:41] How incredible of the vision you've had for your life or our lives
[00:58:50] I think
[00:58:51] You're really an incredible leader in that way and um yeah just just really proud to be your son
[00:58:59] Thank you. Thank you so very much I appreciate that thank you
[00:59:05] Do you love your mom
[00:59:11] Well, you know I mean we do have a couple people on zoom
[00:59:16] Miss Anne and Mia just wanted to open us space in case y'all had a question to ask
[00:59:21] Before I get into what I love about you and then a final question as well
[00:59:25] But Miss Anne and Mia did you want to share anything real quick all your own zoom
[00:59:30] Thank you so much, J. I don't know if you could hear me now
[00:59:33] But Pam I learned so much about you today one of my favorite books
[00:59:38] Disappearing acts
[00:59:40] What you loved it
[00:59:43] Yeah, why the give me day and I thought that she picked the first it
[00:59:49] Actor and actress to play the role
[00:59:52] And I enjoy the
[00:59:55] The casting was just amazing never and so much about you Miss Pamela
[01:00:01] Learn a lot about you and I really appreciate this forum and
[01:00:06] There was something that
[01:00:08] Myel said that was so funny when you said that you could meet people
[01:00:12] You know when you get on the subway you would read a book and myel said
[01:00:16] When you had to treat me somebody and you're you're reading on the subway
[01:00:20] I thought that was just perfect time
[01:00:24] Perfect time but anyway everything has just been so awesome and thank you guys so much, okay?
[01:00:30] I met any fans, but I'm still listening
[01:00:32] Yeah, okay
[01:00:34] Thank you
[01:00:36] Thank you guys keep doing a great job
[01:00:38] Lovely thank you love you
[01:00:41] Mia my nine years
[01:00:43] Go ahead, all right cool well now. I mean a hundred percent
[01:00:46] Every time I get complimented on my smile
[01:00:50] I say thank you. It's my mom's you know, and it's cool and I feel like the whole you're like everything that you just shared about
[01:01:00] Smiling and and also even just how children will imitate their parents like I think you're just always
[01:01:09] In my heart and always on my mind because I'm like smiling a lot and because I know that that's my way of
[01:01:15] sharing
[01:01:16] a little bit of the love that you've poured into us
[01:01:20] our entire lives and
[01:01:22] In particular too. I mean, I really love your life. There's one
[01:01:26] memory in particular. I have when we used to like be into a double-dutch and like skipping rope and stuff
[01:01:32] And you got in once
[01:01:34] I just had a flash of you like and
[01:01:36] Memphis in the 70s
[01:01:38] Like doing your thing you're going crazy on a double-dutch, you know, and I think and I think that that that sense of joy
[01:01:45] That sense of cheer and
[01:01:48] And real like love and pleasure was just so
[01:01:52] Beautiful to like witness, you know
[01:01:55] Because right I think you know even as we've been talking so much of
[01:02:01] Your life now is how you've decided to be as an adult but I think even getting that flash of you as a child who's just a really beautiful
[01:02:07] Moment so I 100% agree on the spirit piece and
[01:02:14] And I think a lot of that does come to your voice and the power of like your voice
[01:02:19] How you're able to how you've always been all the community with us and
[01:02:23] Like clear gentle but also like firm ways
[01:02:29] Which is is leading up to my own question
[01:02:33] My own final question around the fact that you have been saying real ballers read
[01:02:38] Longer than anybody it's it's your phrase, you know you can trade market if you wanted to
[01:02:44] And you were saying it way before miles and I even believe in it
[01:02:49] So I would just really love
[01:02:51] For you to share just like what that phrase means to you and
[01:02:56] Why you think it's important?
[01:02:58] Wow now that's a question. I did not expect
[01:03:02] On the real ballers we podcast
[01:03:08] Right
[01:03:10] gosh
[01:03:12] I think
[01:03:14] What it harkens back to quite frankly is something else for my childhood
[01:03:19] I grew up in a time
[01:03:22] where I was often teased for
[01:03:26] Sound and white
[01:03:28] And it was something that I later studied with John Rickford. You know this whole notion
[01:03:35] of as a black child you can't
[01:03:39] Sound white you have to use ebonics or you slaying in order to show that your
[01:03:47] part of the black community and
[01:03:50] In the same regard the other thing was you couldn't be smart
[01:03:56] You know I grew up in a project and there was a lot of teasing
[01:04:01] of kids who were smart and
[01:04:06] Real ballers read is really about saying that
[01:04:12] I can be smart. I can read
[01:04:17] And be cool at the same time because we use that term
[01:04:22] baller as someone who is cool someone who is
[01:04:28] Doing things shaking up the world and you guys know very well how much I load
[01:04:37] When people used to ask you about playing basketball all the time
[01:04:42] Like don't they play basketball and the thing about it
[01:04:47] What it made me think of when they asked about that was just that that was all you could do
[01:04:53] It's like really and I hate to say this and you know with my sister on the line
[01:05:02] Now she's gonna know this about me, but you know when you guys were younger
[01:05:08] I was
[01:05:10] Less reluctant in taking you around family that would say that
[01:05:16] Because I did not want that to be all that you knew growing up
[01:05:23] And so
[01:05:25] Growing up I would not have lived in Memphis with you
[01:05:30] Because I knew the kind of environment you would be around where people would only recognize you if you're playing a sport
[01:05:39] And I did not want that to be the case. I wanted you to also
[01:05:46] be proud
[01:05:48] of
[01:05:49] Reading and being smart and not let people teasing you about it discourage you
[01:05:56] And that's been
[01:06:00] Some of the choices, you know that I made
[01:06:03] Around schooling throughout was that you would at least be around other people
[01:06:08] That you could see that look like yourself who also valued learning
[01:06:14] And reading and that you wouldn't be teased like I was growing up and
[01:06:22] Feeling like I need to always dumb myself down in order to be accepted
[01:06:30] So I mean, I knew that I was not an athlete growing up
[01:06:35] So no one was gonna choose me to be on their team
[01:06:39] But at the same time I could still
[01:06:43] do well read and
[01:06:47] Kick butt in the classroom and that's okay
[01:06:51] And that was okay and they didn't have to
[01:06:55] Choose me or accept me
[01:06:58] For that
[01:07:01] So that's what it really means to me is that
[01:07:05] You can steal flourish you can have friends
[01:07:09] And
[01:07:11] Well, you know you don't have to
[01:07:14] Not having friends not being in a family because you are a reader and that you enjoy learning
[01:07:22] So it means all of those things and a little bit of baggage from my childhood
[01:07:31] Yes
[01:07:33] Wow, well, I really appreciate you sharing that
[01:07:36] You it's it's truly a
[01:07:39] Honor and blessing to have you on the podcast as our hundreds guest or a hundred episode yes
[01:07:48] But yeah, I mean for everyone here. Thanks so much for being here for everyone on zoom
[01:07:52] Thank you so much
[01:07:53] If you're listening in have ever listened to episode of real-ball is read you can give
[01:07:59] 99% of the credit to our mom here
[01:08:02] For everything that she just said everything that she's been for us
[01:08:06] Our entire lives right to be in the process of creating
[01:08:11] Our own kind of literary community our own circle of friends
[01:08:16] You know who can be exactly who they are how they are with their interests and still be loved on the show and beyond so
[01:08:25] Yeah, that's what all about exactly so just just thank you again from the bottom of our hearts
[01:08:32] Can't thank you enough honestly. He's gonna be thinking you the rest of our lives
[01:08:39] Father's day yeah