Celebrating Malcolm X: Insights from Dr. Ibram Kendi

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Okay, how are you guys feeling?

Awesome.

Right? Y' all got three day holiday weekend, everybody. If you're supposed to be at work, put your book right in front of your face so you won't be recorded or anything. But anyway, thank you all for coming. My name is Ramonda Young, and my husband Derek and I are the owners of Mahogany Books right here in the area. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Just a little bit about us. We've been in business for 18 years now, and we started 18 years ago in our one bedroom apartment in Alexandria, Virginia. And the whole premise was, how do we make black books accessible no matter where you live? I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I grew up maybe. Okay, Tulsa, okay. I never see Tulsa. I grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, maybe a mile from black Wall Street. And when I tell you, I never knew black Wall street was a mile from my home because it was never taught in my schools. And if you know anything about black Wall street, it was the epicenter of black businesses and innovation and entrepreneurship. All of it was right there, such a history making momentum, but never was taught. And so my husband and I started talking about what business will be open for me. We have different. He'll probably share a little bit why he started it, his premise of why he started it. But for me, because I did not have access to those type of books, I didn't grow up around black bookstores. I didn't get exposed to a lot of black books until I went to college, to Langston University. So for me, when we talked about a business idea, books for me was like, I never want somebody else to not have exposure to their history because somebody else said it was not necessary. And so Mahogany Books allowed us to do that by starting online and we could ship books all over the United States. We still do 18 years later. And so That's a little bit about us. Want to share something too, husband?

Yes. So, again, hello, everyone. My name is Derek Young, co owner of Mahogany Books. I am from here, Southeast D.C. and. And I am so excited because this is my home library. I grew up not too far down the street from here in Foresights, Maryland. When I was going to Siouxland High School. And when I young kids, when I had to come and do my reports on the weekend, when I had to study, this is the library I would come to. I would spend time at studying, reading, reading. And it just feels always so good when I get to come back here and bring back events like this to this library. Because this is what opening up a bookstore meant for me. I'm used to being in a city where there's a lot of culture, where there are black bookstores, where things that you can go to and learn about yourself. That's something that my mother really poured into me. So when I was at school at the Bowie State University.

Here we go, here we go. Here we go, here we go. Both of these HBCUs used to see us at home, but go ahead.

It became imperative at that time, cause I worked at a black bookstore, that this is what I wanted to do with my life. So I'm just always excited to be able to do these type of events, to host these kind of individuals, to have these kind of conversations. Because it's important for us to have a space where we can talk about our history, talk about our culture, learn, celebrate ourselves, and just continue to share that information with our families and friends.

Yeah. And the last thing I want to add, we are here at the Austin Hill Library. Give it up for the librarians, people. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Tell you a little quick story. I know y' all did not come here to hear Ramonda and Derek, but in the beginning, when we started our business, I used to feel like the libraries were our competition because people could go there and get books for free. So why shop and purchase a book? And I was just very ignorant on that topic. And then I thought about it. We both want people to have access to books and whether. And money should not be an obstacle for you to have access to our history, to content and information. And so that had a button had to switch on in my head to say, we're not in competition. So to be here tonight, there's three amazing library. I'm putting them on the spot. Three amazing libraries in the back here. The libraries actually close on Friday nights. And so these amazing librarians said we're going to stay open so you guys can have events here like this. So let's please give it up for the librarians. Yes. Yeah. So let's get into it because we're here to learn about Malcolm X and I'm excited that this is the first full length, I feel, biography that really encapsulates his life in such a beautiful way for young people, for older people too, who don't know a lot of things about Malcolm X. This is the New York Times best selling book. Yes. Let's give it up for that.

Yes.

What? That is huge in this time and in this age to have a book that hits the New York Times especially with this content, especially I'm not going to get into all the things why. But yes, 100th birthday was just a few days ago on Monday, I believe. It does believe it. So anyway, let's get into it. I'm going to read our conversation host who is somebody very dear to me. Dear to us, I'm always saying me, but very dear to us. And her name is Ms. Joy Ann Reed. She is also a New York Times bestselling author, political commentator and an analyst with 30 plus years in the media business. Give it up for 30 years, please. Yes, absolutely. She was the host of the two time NAACP award winning and Emmy nominated nightly analysis program the Readout on msnbc and prior to that she hosted the weekend program AM Joy. She has. Let me see here, let me see. Also, which was also a weekend program and a daily news show. You guys, please help me welcome the amazing Joy Ann Reid tonight.

All right. Oh, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Cut that out. Cut that out. Cut that out. Cut it out. Cut it out, cut it out. So. And the gentleman you are here to hear from to celebrate this book, this incredible work, Dr. Ibram X Kendi is a National Book Award winning authority of books for adults and children, including New York Times bestsellers like Stamp from the Beginning, Stamp for Kids, how to Raise an Anti Racist and goodnight racism. Dr. Kendi is the Andrew W. Mellon professor in Humanities at Boston University and the director of the BU center for Anti Racist Research. Please welcome put your hands together for Ms. Dr. Ibram Kendi.

Yes.

We already got a hug in the back so I was like, let me just go ahead and reproduce it. Well, hello everyone. It's always great to be in the library. This is reproducing my childhood. This is literally me as a kid just hanging out in the library. And so it is a thing I love to do. So I Want to thank this wonderful library for having us. I want to obviously thank Mahogany Books. Give him a round of applause. Mahogany Books, one of the best in the business. And of course, Dr. Reverend Dr. Ibram X Kendi. Hello, Ibram. I can call him Ibram. Cause he my friend. Well, thank you for writing this book. First of all, from all the young people. Last year I gave your stamps from the beginning visual book as a gift. I love giving books as gifts. And so now I've got another book gift that I can give the young people that are in my life. Let's talk about this. Malcolm Lives. Why did you feel that you needed to write a book about Malcolm X, whose hundredth birthday would be this year? Why did you feel you need to write a book about him for young readers?

Well, first, good evening, everyone.

Good evening.

Thank you for coming out this evening. I'm really excited and honor to be here. I've been touring, discussing this book. And the last. We saved the last and final stop for this event. And I'm so excited to be in conversation with Joy, of course, admire her work. She is literally one of the voices of black America. And to be in conversation with and to be in conversation with her about one of the other voices of black America and Malcolm, you know, is truly, truly an honor. And so the reason that I wanted to do this book not only, of course, was Malcolm's 100th approaching, but I also had the opportunity to partner with the Malcolm X estate on this book. But I also thought in this moment, in a time in which there's pretty awesome power that's manufacturing fear that's causing us to sort of fear being disappeared or fear losing our jobs or fear not getting that or keeping that funding or even fear for our lives. I think it's important for us to return to, as young people and even adults, somebody in American history who was fearless. And of course, that was Malcolm X. Yeah, absolutely.

There's a quote right at the top of the book. There's on page three, you don't even have to get far to get this amazing quote. And that you talk about the fact that history is boring when it's dead, which I think is a great quote. But you quote Malcolm X when he said, I'm for truth no matter who tells it. I'm for justice no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being first and foremost. And as such, I'm for whoever. Bless you. And whatever benefits humanity as a whole. That isn't the way that I think we are generally Taught Malcolm X. At least we were taught Malcolm X before some of us got the chance to read the autobiography of Malcolm X ourselves. We were sort of taught about him as this sort of villain, this sort of, you know, sort of scary figure. But he was a humanitarian. And you lead with that quote. Why did you decide to do that?

Well, I do think it's important for us to lead with where someone arrived. Right, so this is where he arrived ideologically before he was murdered. And he arrived as a person who was committed to human rights for everyone, but especially for black people. He arrived at a place in which he thought civil rights activists needed to elevate their struggle from civil rights to human rights. And he would say things like, you don't take your case to the criminal framing the US government as the criminal. You take your criminal to court. And that court was the international court or more specifically the United Nations. And of course, he wanted. He was trying to leverage an African nation to go before the UN and charge the United States with violating the human rights of African Americans. He literally wanted the United States to emerge as, in a way, the pariah that South Africa was emerging in the 1960s and to sort of recognize those similarities between those two forms of apartheid. And so fundamentally, he thought and believed that the Human Rights Charter of the UN could be a beacon for black liberation.

It's interesting that you mentioned South Africa and the United States as an international. I can't help myself. I'm sorry, I can't change. I'm too old. There is this thing about history that it rhymes, as my buddy Rachel Maddow loves to say, right, that you keep seeing these reverberations of the past in the present. And when you think about now, having worked with the. With the El Shabaz, the estate on this and really dug into Malcolm X's life, what reverberations do you see beyond the fact that we do feel like we're entering a new apartheid era in the United States, that the United States is reflecting very directly South African pre Mandela history and literally bringing physically white South Africans here in a claim that there is this, you know, sort of fictional genocide, you know, this idea of this sort of fear of white genocide, like that feels like it's resonant to me. Does it to you?

Oh, without question. And I think the way in which that's resonant is because keeps promoting this notion that white people are the primary victims of racism, that white people are facing this sort of global genocide, that the job of the federal government is to protect White people from those quote unquote hordes of black and brown people who are trying to harm them. And I think the reason why that's resonant in Malcolm's time is because Malcolm, even after he goes to Mecca and comes back recognizing that there's nothing inherently evil about white people through Islam, and I say through Islam because we're often taught that people hate white people because of Islam. But Malcolm actually was freed of that idea by Islam. They don't talk about that. But I mention that because even after he came back from Mecca, he was still framed as a black supremacist. He was still framed as anti white. Just as those of us who are engaging in anti racist work, those of us who are fighting against racism in this moment are framed as anti white. So it's not that we want equal opportunity for everyone, it's that we're trying to apparently take opportunities away from white people. And of course, that's used to manipulate white people into opposing efforts that's actually going to benefit them and supporting presidents that are literally going to take money from them.

And you know what's interesting about this idea of kind of the sort of fear that on the right wing they sort of try to stoke in white Americans constantly. And you think about Malcolm's life, I mean, he's in Omaha, Nebraska, not the blackest place in the world. He grew up in a community where he was pretty much the only. His family were a very small minority. So it was the reverse. He wasn't. His family was in no power. And in fact, there's a chapter here that I think young people. It's going to resonate because this is something young people deal with. Bullies. You title chapter six is called Bullies. Talk about that. And Malcolm being as a young man that faces something that so many young people will be able to relate to.

Yeah. So after Malcolm's family is driven out of Omaha by the Klan, they end up in Milwaukee, stay there for a while, and end up in Lansing, Michigan, and buy some land and a farmhouse in a predominantly white area of Lansing, actually an all white area. And Malcolm and his siblings end up going to school, and they're the only black people in their whole school. And so Malcolm is consistently and constantly picked on him and his brothers and sisters to the point in which they literally have to fight to fight regularly to maintain their dignity. But they're not just picked on by their classmates, they're also picked on by and bullied by the curriculum. Malcolm is forced to read books like Little Black Sambo in this school in Michigan in the 1930s. His history teacher, when he was in middle school, reads the single black paragraph, I should say the single paragraph about black people in the history book, which essentially was a paragraph that stated that black people were civilized. And then slavery ended and then we reverted back to criminality. And then after that, the teacher proceeded to mock black people in class with Malcolm, the only person there. So, you know, it was constant for Malcolm as a young person.

The other thing that you explore that I think a lot of people leave behind, you know, there's an ADOS movement that is trying to sort of turn African Americans and Caribbean Americans against one another. And whenever one of those people, you know, I get into it with them, I always say, well, then you can't have Malcolm X. We get Malcolm X in the racial draft. If you're saying the Caribbeans can't come because I have to go with the Caribbeans too, talk about that. Because not only is Malcolm black in a white world, his family are Caribbean Americans.

Yes, indeed. His mother was born in the Caribbean, in Grenada, which is of course above Venezuela. And his mother also, when she leaves the Caribbean, she doesn't first go to the U.S. she goes to Canada, Montreal, Canada. That's where she meets Malcolm's father. And so Malcolm literally is embodied the African American and the black immigrant. And I think that's partly why when he comes of age politically, he starts advocating for the unity of black people first, the unity of black people within the United States. Of course, he would give speeches in which he would say, they don't hang you because you're a Methodist or because you're a Baptist or because you're a Muslim. They, they hang you because you're black. And then he would of course, travel to Africa and seek to forge relationships between black people in Africa and African Americans. And I think Malcolm X would be incredibly critical of the so called ADOS movement.

Yeah, absolutely. There's also the question of, you know, which is a minority, I think, to a lot of people outside of the black community, but really not internally because most African Americans have Muslim family members or no Muslims. It's not like a big deal within the black community because, you know, I don't think a lot of people realize that at enslavement, you know, because you did stamp from the beginning that about a third of the people who came over on those slave ships were Muslim. And most African Americans are close Muslim friends or have family members. But talk about the idea of Malcolm being a Muslim in a country in which black folks are generally perceived as Christian.

Well, let me say this. I did an event in Lansing, Michigan, and I did the event with a Michigan State professor who was an historian of Islam in the United States. And he stated that Malcolm X is the single most prominent Muslim in American history. You know, Bar. Well, then Muhammad Ali more than Muhammad Ali.

Ooh, that was his friend, by the way.

And so, I mean, but it's either, you know, probably Malcolm or Muhammad Ali. Two black men, right, and two people who are members of the Nation of Islam. And so I think that goes to show that the criticality of Malcolm, and what's also interesting is it's likely the case that the city with the most black Muslims is Philadelphia. And Malcolm helped start the Nation of Islam chapter or mosque in Philadelphia in 1954. And I think you can't really tell, of course, Malcolm's story without, of course, telling the story of even Islam itself in the US And I think that that's one of the things I also tried to do in the book, because young people in particular, just like adults, we don't learn about Islamic U.S. history. We don't learn about, for instance, why would so many black Americans in the 1930s and 1940s and 1950s be attracted to Islam? And I think that that is important sort of question that I, of course, sought to answer. And Malcolm, of course, spent a lot of time outside of churches, literally recruiting Christians, you know, to the Nation of Islam.

I would that. One of the chapters that I really enjoy a lot is this one. This is chapter seven. It's called A Vision. In the picture, the man pictured here is a gentleman named Marcus Garvey. Jamaican? Yes. So those are the JA people, the J A Posse. You always hear them say, yes, they claim him very proudly. But you know, Malcolm, they're Garveyite. People talk about that movement a little bit and how Malcolm intersects with that.

Well, first, I mentioned earlier that Malcolm's mother goes to Montreal, Canada. She follows her uncle, who had went there previously. And it is at a Garveyite meeting where she meets Earl Little, Malcolm's father. And so they literally bond through following the Universal Negro Improvement association, which, of course was the unia, the organization of Marcus Garvey. And they end up going, of course, to Omaha to start a chapter in Omaha of the unia. And that's the activism there, is the reason why the Klan ends up actually approaching the house while Earl is gone. And Louise Little is there while she's pregnant with Malcolm. And she stares down the Klan and so, so much of Malcolm's childhood was, of course, being infused with the teachings and lessons of Marcus Garvey. Indeed, Malcolm was his father's, quote, unquote, favorite child. And he would go with his father to some Garveyite meetings that his father would do, particularly around Michigan. So he would watch his father speak about Marcus Garvey, talk about Africa for the Africans, talk about black people needing to gain control of their own communities, talk about Marcus Garvey saying that he is equal to any white man and no black people should look or imagine that they are inferior to any black person. That was Malcolm's childhood.

And, you know, you talk about the Africa for the Africans movement. I mean, this is something that resonates again today because some of the conflict that we're seeing in South Africa is that you have 7% of the population that are white, and they were people who were colonizers. They colonized South Africa and wound up gaining something like 70% of the arable land in South Africa is owned by 7% of the population who are white. And so there is a lot of activism on the continent that is saying that there's an inequity not just in the enslavement of blacks in the United States or in the Caribbean or in South Central America, but also in Africa on the continent, where the indigenous people, black people, in many cases, own almost nothing and have almost no economic opportunity. So, I mean, as you're. I wonder, as you're just pulling this book together and Tory, and talking about it, how does that hit you? Because that question of whether a government, a black government in South Africa, can do a form of reparations and can use a means that has been used on black people here, eminent domain, which has been used to take land from black people and give it to highways. It's been used a lot in the United States. When you're thinking about that, I don't know, how does that hit you on this tour?

Well, I know that Malcolm would advocate for that. And frankly, I think Malcolm, he was living and traveling, particularly in Africa in 1964, when these newly decolonized nations were setting up their political states, but then still in many ways subjected economically to their. To sort of their quote, unquote, mother sort of countries. And what that meant is, okay, you can set up a government, but we're still going to own the minerals, we're still going to own the diamond fields. You know, we're still going to sort of own the factories. We're still going to own the land. And then we will allow you to say, you're free. But we all know what's truly the case. And of course, Malcolm was pushing back against that. And also, I think he was thinking about the relationship between what was happening in Africa and what was happening in the United States, where in the United States there was this continuous drive, of course, for black people to gain elected office. But he was also encouraging black people, through his lessons with the Nation of Islam to, of course, gain economic power. And he would say things like, anytime you have to depend on your enemy for a job, you in bad shape.

Indeed. You also write, and I wonder how you approached, because this is a book for young people. We know the young folks face a lot of struggles, and bullying is one of them. And one that their parents are dearly trying to keep them away from are drugs and crime. And how did you approach writing about Malcolm's troubled years, the years in which he did end up in prison, the years in which he was using drugs? How did you approach that?

So it's interesting you say that, because I thought about that. I thought about how some parents, some teachers may not want their young people to literally learn about when Malcolm was selling drugs, taking drugs, stealing, you know, his law breaking. And somehow, because I'm trying to think about this, you know, this American perspective that if somehow we expose a child to something, they're going to become that. I don't. I don't know why we think that, but, you know, if your child has a. Your child has a gay teacher, suddenly they become gay. Like, it's just this. This weird American mischief.

It's part of the assignment they give in fourth period. What are you talking about? Yes, be gay by tomorrow. There'll be a quiz.

So I certainly thought about that. But so what I tried to do is I spent a lot of time talking about the conditions that Malcolm was in and the emotional effects of those conditions. So to give an example, the condition of poverty, then leading to hunger, then leading to, I'm going to go to this downtown store and take an apple so I can eat. Or the condition of just being angry because you're being subjected to police violence, or being angry because your mother and father is not there, and so you're like, I have nothing to live for, so I'm just going to do. And so I tried to constantly sort of talk about those larger conditions and those larger emotional. Those emotional moments that Malcolm had, and then in critical moments, even talk directly to readers to make sure they understood what Malcolm was potentially thinking and Feeling so that they could understand that he was doing those things because he wasn't necessarily in his right space and in his right mind. And if things were different, he would have been doing things that were different.

There's also, you know, something that can be difficult to write about is, you know, the internal family dynamics and tragedies. And Malcolm's mom is, I think, a fascinating person in history that doesn't get a lot of attention. But what was Malcolm's relationship like with his mom, and how did that trajectory go for him?

Well, let me say this. Malcolm rarely spoke about his mother in public when he became a very prominent minister. And I speculate in the book that one of the reasons why he rarely spoke about her was because he was personally ashamed. Not necessarily about the fact that she was in a mental institution, but I think he was ashamed by how he felt he contributed to that because there's some parts in the book in which, for instance, his. His brother. His older brother is out in Boston working, sending money home, and he and another of his brothers are literally taking that money, which then is driving even more strain onto his mother. And, of course, he remembered those things. Right. And so I think he, of course, in a way, as young people do. Right. Blamed himself. And so he didn't really spend that much time talking about her. But I thought it was important to share her story. And there's a moment in the book, if you may, that I'd like to please to share. And this is the moment in which she ends up being basically taken to. To a mental institution. And I tried to. It is a summation, frankly, about all the things that she is facing, if I could find it.

By the way, I love the photographs in the book. Yes, we love a good photograph. And there are letters, correspondence. You can see what the handwriting looks like. It's actually really fascinating.

Okay, so in 1938 months before she and this is Luis Little went out walking barefoot in the snow, the nightmare happened. Welfare officials took Malcolm, placed him into foster care with the Gohanas family, where he would eat dinner sometimes after school. Louise resisted but couldn't stop it. The stress of her husband dying was too much. The stress of having no money was too much. The stress of racist welfare officials was too much. The stress of Malcolm getting in trouble with the law was too much. The stress of Malcolm being taken was too much. The stress of having another mouth to feed after 8th child arrived was too much. The stress of the father of her eighth child leaving was too much. It all became Too much in 1938, a neighbor probably saw Louise walking barefoot in the snow with her child. She needed help, but too few people had truly helped since Earl died. That was why she was here, cold to the cold around her because the racist world had been cold to her.

It's difficult because we don't talk about mental health often at all in this country. We're very bad at it, and in the black community, even more so. It's just not something we talk about. You're approaching this, and, you know, it's a young reader. Did that give you pause of how to present.

Was really just about trying to present it in language that young readers could understand. But frankly, precisely because of what you just said, that we don't have these conversations with young people. And young people are facing their own mental health challenges in this moment. Actually, last I checked, there's this skyrocketing number of black youth who are committing suicide. And there's like, we're not even talking about that. And frankly, of course, our young people have friends, right, who are facing these challenges, and it's hard to recognize it if they're not learning stories about it. And so hopefully this story will give them a better sense of what could potentially be happening to them or others.

Let's talk about Betty. I particularly love this because, I mean, I just wrote a love story about somebody that deeply admired Malcolm Medgar Evers and his wife. Let's talk about Betty. How did.

Which was a great book.

Thank you. It did all right. Oh, by the way, did we mention that this amazing book is on the New York Times bestseller list? We can give that an applause. So congratulations on that. Yes. Talk about how Betty and Malcolm met.

So Betty joins Malcolm's mosque in Harlem. Not long, actually, after he arrives there, and he becomes interested in her. And one day I calls her up and asks, well, actually, I should say one day I ask her to go with him to a museum in New York. But then the day they're supposed to go, Malcolm gets cold feet and calls her, and he's like, well, I mean, I just don't know. And maybe we should go at another time. And she challenges him, and she's like, you waited so long to tell me? And I think he liked that. And they ended up going to the museum, of course, which was literally their first date. And I actually think that they spent quite a bit of time potentially even talking about racism, like, at that museum. And I sort of narrate many of the racist exhibits that literally were at that museum when they went. And I Suspect he was taken by her brilliance. They also had a connection because Betty was from Detroit. You know, of course, Malcolm was from Lansing. Most of his siblings were living in Detroit. And so they, of course, fell in love and got married. And Elijah Muhammad, of course, was supportive.

There's so many letters in the book that are reproduced. It's one of my favorite things, sorry, in books, is to find, like, all the little goodies, and you've got all those. Can you talk about the process of getting the letters and you can see Betty's signature and Malcolm's signature and talk about that process.

Yes. So since we were able to work with the Malcolm X estate, we decided pretty early on that we wanted to put some primary documents, some letters. There's even some notations from Malcolm's address book from his notebook. There's a note of him learning to write Arabic. There's also a letter of him writing to a woman who he came to know in the early 1960s. She was involved in a pretty significant protest at the United nations after the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, who was the first president of. Of the Congo. Eventually, she's alienated somewhat from the United States, goes to Accra, Ghana, becomes a part of a small expat community there. When Malcolm comes there in 1964, she's part of the welcoming committee, brings him around. She comes back to United States, changes her last name and becomes known as Maya Angelou. And so there's a letter to Maya Angelou from Malcolm and Malcolm lives.

There's so many goodies like that in this book. Talk about my favorite person of all time, besides my mom, Muhammad Ali. Absolutely. Just. He is my favorite, greatest athlete of all time. Fight me. Talk about that. Because another thing that you're. And I love, because this is for young readers. You know, friendship is so important to young people. They kind of build their kind of identities in many ways around who their friends are and what their friendships look like. Talk about that friendship. And you have a chapter which is called Betrayal. Talk about that.

Well, first, I would encourage everybody to see. I think it's Regina's movie, A Night in Miami.

So good.

And this is a movie for those of you aren't familiar. So when Muhammad Ali fights, or he's known as Cassius Clay, then when he fights, I believe, Sonny Liston in the early part of 1964, he invites Malcolm X, but he also invites Sam Cooke and Jim Brown. And so the four of them are literally in a hotel room, hanging out, talking.

And in Liberty City.

Yes, of all places. And so the film depicts sort of that moment, or I should say that evening. But, you know, they became friends. Muhammad Ali was largely attracted to the Nation of Islam because of Malcolm X. And he, of course, started coming to different mosques and different even businesses. And, you know, Malcolm became almost like his spiritual advisor. And the Nation of Islam did not necessarily believe that Muhammad Ali was going to win and beat Sonny Liston, but Malcolm X did. And Malcolm X, at the time he had been silenced from the Nation of Islam. He was questioning whether he would ever get back into the Nation of Islam. He believed that if Muhammad Ali won that fight, that the Nation of Islam would want Muhammad Ali to join the Nation. And so he felt he had the opportunity to almost broker his way back into the Nation through an alliance with Muhammad Ali. But after Muhammad Ali wins, Elijah Muhammad steps in and is able to get Muhammad Ali to side in a way with Elijah in the dispute with him and Malcolm X. And so that's when Malcolm. It's almost his last card to play to stay in the Nation of Islam. And so literally the next day, he decides to leave.

Yeah. Actually, you know, my favorite fun fact about Malcolm X is that he was friends with Red Fox and they were both called Red. I actually love that. Like, people think of Red Fox as being, like, super old, but he was actually pretty young when he played Sanford and Sanford and Son. And he literally was buddies with. No fake news here. Right.

They worked at a fast food joint in Harlem together.

Yeah. No, it's a great. It's a great fun fact. And then if you rethink about Red Fox and Malcolm X and put them together as buddies, it's like my favorite thing ever. How did you address. Well, two things that I'm going to let you all ask questions. How did you address the breach from Elijah Muhammad and all of the things Elijah Muhammad was into and up to in writing this book for this audience?

Well, I think first, I think there were two aspects of the breach. There was the ideological aspect, which I think was easier to write. So Malcolm wanted the Nation of Islam to be engaged in protest, to be a part of the civil rights movement. Elijah was like, no, we're a religious organization. And I should say there are three reasons. The second reason was over money. And so the Nation of Islam was. The central office was receiving tithes from every single mosque and every single member, as well as receiving. Pretty much every time Malcolm went to speak at a college and received an honorarium, he would send it to the central office. And so the central office was bringing Millions of dollars. And over time, some of the leaders around Elijah, and certainly Elijah himself, started spending that money in expensive things. And Malcolm, of course, hated that. So I tried to narrate that. And I think young people can sort of understand what it means to be corrupt or what it means to use money that's really not yours. And of course, Malcolm, those central leaders were fearful of Elijah dying and Malcolm taking over the Nation of Islam. Elijah had a very serious illness and that he would then drive them all out. So that was one of the reasons why they wanted to get Malcolm out of the nation. The reason why Elijah wanted to get Malcolm out of the Nation, and certainly this was something I had to sort of narrate is Elijah impregnated and had six children with female secretaries who were teenagers. And so I just stated it that sort of plainly. Of course, I didn't get into the salacious details. And Malcolm knew and Elijah was worried and really wanted to set an example of Malcolm X to all the other ministers by silencing him and ultimately ordering the hit.

Yeah. And that. And that brings me. Well, before I get to that, how did you deal with his relate. There's all of these kind of. And I think it is a fake news. I think it's fake news. It's something that people have tried to separate Dr. King from Malcolm X and make them out to be enemies. How did you handle that?

Well, I tried to handle it through. Most of the book is written in scenes, you know, scenes from Malcolm's life that really allow us to. To have almost like a front row seat to what Malcolm was seeing or even saying or even potentially thinking. And so of course, I include the scene of when Malcolm and Martin meet at the U.S. capitol in March of 1964, not long after Malcolm leaves the Nation of Islam. Southern segregationist or filibustering, the Civil Rights act of 1964. And they're both sort of there for that. And I use that to really show their closeness. Right. Because it's one thing to say as Malcolm did, we were both, you know, we both were committed to the liberation of black people. Now, we had different perspectives on how to get there, but ultimately we had similar sort of a similar destination. I thought it was better to sort of show their closeness through that scene.

And then, and now we get to the, you know, the hardest thing to write. I don't know if it was for you, but I know for me, writing the Medgar Evers assassination part was like the hardest part for me to write because by then you've lived with these people and like, you know them, and they're like your friends, and now you don't want to write it. And I like to remind people whenever I talk about this era, Malcolm was the second to be assassinated after Medgar Evers. And then, of course, Dr. King. None of them was as old as Kobe Bryant was when Kobe Bryant died. That's the perspective that you need to think about. Kobe Bryant was older than all three of them when he died, and he was young. So you're talking about. You're doing a whole. This is a pretty thick book. And he did a lot. And he was only 39 years old when he was killed. How did you handle writing about an assassination when you're writing for a young audience?

Well, first, let me say, from my understanding, Medgar is celebrating 100th.

He will be when he's coming. Cause he was only 37.

Oh, wow.

So he's got two more years.

Two more years. Oh, my gosh. And so I think, again, I try to narrate the growing divisions between the leadership of the Nation of Islam or Elijah Muhammad or the people around Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X. And so I start that even going all the way back to. I have a chapter that's actually set in D.C. when Malcolm speaks at Howard University in 1961 and debates Bayard Rustin. And not long after that speech, Elijah is like, you need to stop talking about politics when you go to colleges. Right. So I'm trying to sort of build for young people why these two people fell out, both the political reasons and the financial reasons, and certainly even the details around Elijah's illicit activity. But then I also have to narrate in the final year, which makes it even more complicated what's happening between Malcolm and the U.S. government. And specifically how, as I mentioned earlier, his efforts to take the United States before the UN and really embarrass it around the world. The US Wasn't particularly happy about that. So I'm sort of. I tried to spend a lot of time before the last year sort of sharing the details of the split between the nation. And then that final year, it's really this impending split between Malcolm and the US and that then allows me, when I'm narrating the assassination, which to first sort of narrate the specific members of the Nation of Islam and where they came from, who they were, but then also talk about the role of the US Government in abetting the assassination. And it was, you know, again, I just told it as the story that it was in the sense of the actual day that Malcolm was assassinated and even the previous days. And so to give an example, you'll see that Malcolm's security detail had been infiltrated by an NYPD undercover agent. And that undercover agent witnessed a dry run on the assassination a week before Malcolm was killed. Reported that to his. Authorities did not report it to Malcolm. So the whole diversion that we know was critical to Malcolm's assassination. They literally rehearsed that the Sunday before Malcolm's assassination. And, and so, you know, and I, and I think it's just important to just share this. And certainly even the bombing of, of Malcolm's home a few days before his, which also is. Is narrated in detail.

Yeah. And I'm going to listen. This is why he has a Ph.D. and I don't. You're absolutely right. The hundred is this year as well. They're both. They're the same age. Let's talk about. You get attacked for telling these histories because people see them as divisive. Now you're telling this history to a young audience and I think you can expect your book will be banned in Florida and Texas. I apologize. That's going to happen. And Arkansas and Mississippi and Alabama. Anyway, a lot of things. What is your argument to people who say telling these stories divides people?

So I would ask them, like, who's being divided? Right. Because in the case of Malcolm X, they would say, oh, well, it's dividing Malcolm from white people. Well, actually, telling Malcolm's story, like even the assassination, he was killed by five black men. Right. And I'm also narrating how he was formulating relationships with black people who he came to trust and white people. So there's a, there's a scene in the book about him going to the home of a New York Times reporter, a white New York Times reporter who he first shares that he's leaving the Nation of Islam. And he had developed trust for this reporter over the years. And I also sort of narrate the reasons why he developed that trust because they were actually quite similar in certain types of ways. So it's not. This book doesn't necessarily sort of paint white people as the sort of constant villain in Malcolm's story because frankly, they weren't the constant villain. Now, white racist folks were the constant villain. But Malcolm, of course, was able to accept white people who were striving to be anti racist.

Yeah, I generally, when people say that to me, I generally say my question back to them is, who do you identify with in this story? Because there are plenty of Heroic white people. You could identify with the story, but if you're offended, maybe you're identifying with the bad guys. Maybe it's about you and not about them. I want to let people ask questions. So what we're going to do is here now, look, waving hands in the air. This is the person with the mic, and I want to remind you he will continue to hold onto that mic. He's not going to hand you the mic. You're not going to get to drop the mic. And we're going to ask you to please do not use the mic to give a speech or to make a statement. Make sure that whatever you say actually has an actual question mark on the end of it, please, because we know how it is. And if there are any politicians who are running for office, this is not the time. Or any pastors, not the time for a sermon either. Even though we love the Lord. We love the Lord. I want you to understand that there's a question here, please, and come over to the mic when, if you have a question, if you don't mind, and we're going to ask you to line up on that side. And that way we can get everyone in good order. And then after that, you guys are going to get to get your books and your photo op with Dr. Kendi. Okay? Please tell us who you are and ask your question. Okay. My name is Marcel Reed, and I'm with the Whistleblower Summit for Civil and Human Rights. We're the largest and oldest group of whistleblowers, black whistleblowers, specifically, in the country. And I want to talk about by telling this story. Oh, wait a minute now. If you're going to tell a story, how long is that story going to take? I was going to say, okay, maybe this can be tied into encouraging more people to stand up and to speak up like Malcolm did. That is what I wanted to say. Okay. And thank you very much for writing the book. I'm from Compton, and in Compton, we had the Malcolm X Center. So for many years, when I was a kid, we were at the Malcolm X Center.

So his imprint was huge. Thank you.

Thank you.

That's awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, look at this. A young person. Hello. What's your name? Imani. Okay, what's your question? How long did it take for you to write the book? Can we just give Imani a hand for asking a question? Okay.

So Imani's my daughter.

Y' all ring her.

So it took me, I believe, about two and a half years total between research and Writing and then probably another year, the whole publication process. So probably about three and a half years.

Can I ask Imani a question? Do you mind? Can I ask you a question, Imani? When. Because I know I have kids, when I was writing a book. It's a lot of work. What was it like for you while your dad is working on this book? Exciting. Yeah. Are you proud of him? Good. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. All right, next question.

Good evening, Dr. Kendi. Ms. Reed. My name is Michael Anthony Williams. I'm a professional actor and writer and proud father of a young Afro Latina who is a journalism major because of Ms. Joy Reid.

Oh, thank you.

At Northwestern University. So my question to you is, as powerful as this story is and with the short attention span of the target audience, how most effectively do we get this to them in short burst? Is it tick tock videos? Is it just what, how is it, how is it best to get it to them? Because they're not going to sit and read your book at one in. In many sittings because their attention span is just not there. So have you thought about that? And can you share some insights on that strategy? Because I certainly would love to steal it.

Well, first, let me say when I was writing this book, I thought about the fact that the competition is YouTube and even fiction. So this is a nonfiction biography. It's rare that our young people are exposed to serious historical nonfiction. And so that's the reason why I wrote it in the way that I, that I wrote it, and I wrote it in these very vivid scenes that could be accessible and interesting to young people. Of course, we had all these interesting materials in the book. We had. There was, it was written in second person. There were very, very short chapters. So, you know, their attention span is short. They can read two pages and then put it to the side and then come back. So indeed, all the things you were thinking about is precisely what I was considering when I wrote the book. And I think that it is possible to give this book to young people and I think in hope that they would be captivated, buy it, because ultimately we need their heads in books.

And have you thought about. I'm going to let you ask about the placement in schools because one of the ways that we get young people to read is we assign these books in school.

Yeah. And so I've probably spoken at at least two schools every day for the last two weeks. And so I've been trying as much as possible to go to schools to get and ensure this book is going to be taught there for that precise reason.

Great. Your question. Beautiful dress, by the way. Thank you.

Hi, my name is Jessica Ortiz. I am Howard. Alum. So welcome, Bison. Welcome to you. And I'm actually preparing to do a PhD focused on economic development and in particular, groups that have developed outside of government support. Right. Kind of in preparation for what we're going through. Anyway, my question is about Dr. King's last book, actually, Where Do We Go From Here? And his focus on his turn to economic development and independence that some would argue brought on his assassination. And I note that he and Malcolm began to get close at the end of Malcolm's life. And I'm curious if there's any kind of crossover between Dr. King's turn to economics and Malcolm's friendship.

Well, first, let me say I don't know if you've heard of a new book called the Black Utopians. And this book literally documents black people in the United States who had this utopian view and really trying to create these black spaces, these economic powerhouses that were not receiving any governmental support. One of the people who is chronicled in this book is a preacher by the name of Reverend Albert Kleeg, who actually Malcolm knew in Detroit, who was the minister of the shrine of the Black Madonna in Detroit. And they ended up buying a significant piece of land, I believe, in South Carolina, to engage in economic development. So I would encourage you to check out that book, the Black Utopians. It's actually a really good book for anybody who's interested to your question very quickly. So we don't really talk enough about Martin Luther King's growing critique of capitalism. And similarly, Malcolm X, when he was sort of traveling to Africa and meeting with African presidents, most of those African presidents, Kwame Nkrumah, Jomo, Kenyatta, Julius Nyere, had deep criticisms of capitalism or even were truly socialists. And so they, of course, and they were impressing upon Malcolm, just as I suspect they were impressing upon King to develop a more sophisticated understanding of having a sort of class analysis. And Malcolm, we never really know what he would have arrived at. But my suspicion is precisely where King arrived at is where Malcolm was going.

Thank you very. I'm sort of. I'm very fascinated with black socialism because, I mean, if you look at indigenous societies, they don't tend to be capitalists. They don't believe in owning land. And so. And black people are indigenous to Africa. And so they are very similar to indigenous people in this country. They come from societies that are not capitalistic at all. And so there's that Western capitalist model is imposed a lot of times on black societies. I think that's fascinating. I would love to read that book. Please.

Phenomenal. Again, thank you very much. My name is Dr. Abram Marsh. I'm a professor, much like yourself. And I do follow you, Ms. Reed. I really enjoy what you've done with as you've transitioned from mainstream into substack.

Thank you.

And that's where my question arises. Both my wife and I are military retirees. And as we look at what you all have done on a more.

Global.

Scale with a lot of the books that you've written and being on major television, how do we transition some of that into things like Mahogany Books are doing more independent because as you've seen at that level, you know, you've had a lot of people, a lot of industries, you know, prevent you from, you know, putting your books in on bookshelves in schools and the like. So how do we find, how do we mobilize that economic engine so we can use independent agencies like Mahogany Books and others? Thank you.

Do you want to try it? You go for it.

So I'll say briefly because I'm curious to hear Joy's answer. I'll say that particularly as an author, I think that's why events like tonight are absolutely critical in which we partner with an independent black owned bookstore who of course already has trust and a following within a community of readers. And so it allows us to be connected to those readers and not necessarily have to go to the Washington Post or some sort of mainstream outlet. We can partner with those organizations and institutions that already exist in our communities to connect with people. And that's how you do it as an author, by developing those relationships with independent, particularly black owned and other sort of bookstores. And if you do that, that's how you can of course be successful. And what's frank is I think some authors are led to believe that the pipeline to bestseller list is trying to get, you know, these big box retailers to carry your books. And that's actually not the route. And you know, there's even a debate right now about how because black people are boycotting Target, it's hurting black authors. And I've had a number of bestsellers and I've never actually thought of targeting as, as a place that was helping me. So I don't even know what folks are talking about.

I've never, and I'm a super nerd and I've never bought a book in Target ever, ever. I mean, you closed back in the Day before we were boycotting them. But I've never bought, never bought a book in Target. And yeah, and I agree, I think it is about, you know, James Baldwin sold a lot of books before there was cable news and before there was a Washington, you know, before the Washington Post was a major bookseller. We have to get back to community if you know, good, you know, particularly local and independent booksellers. That's why I love, that's why I essentially stalk Mahogany books and have. Right, because. And you know, you think about these small books, that they are the ones who have the passion for your individual project. And so what I would tell authors, if you guys are aspiring authors out there, don't just go running to Barnes and Nobles or Amazon. Think about these independent booksellers who, particularly if they're embedded in communities, because they're the ones who are passionate about your book and about your project and about you. And start. Let's go back to the old school ways that we educate each other. We can educate one another. We can give out books in church, we can have clubs independently. Substack is brilliant because it's a mailing list. You can just mail a whole bunch of people and talk about your book. It's like, so find new ways. Next question.

Okay, we got three more.

Hi, my name is Miska and thank everyone for, for putting this event on tonight.

So I have two questions and I.

Wrote them down so they're tied together.

Out.

Okay. What is the message you hope young readers and their parents will get from this book in order to use in this current day and beyond? And then one of the other gentlemen mentioned about engaged. Have you developed a workbook or guide.

To facilitate meaningful conversations?

Well, let me say the second question. There is a workbook and guide that's in development for teachers, but we haven't thought about maybe developing one for caregivers more broadly. That's certainly something I can bring back to the lab and see whether that's possible. To the first question, there's so many different messages I think that people could take away, but I just want to mention one and I think it's reflective on the COVID itself. And so if you look at the COVID Malcolm X is rising out of books. And that was intentional. Malcolm X, of course, became this world renowned revolutionary who would debate anyone and who could, say, speak before these elite college crowds or just regular old folks, either with ease and was fearless and had the capacity to create these analogies that were incredibly sophisticated but made sense to people and who had the ability to Talk to regular folks about global issues and local issues all in the same speech. Because he was a serious, serious reader. And the book, especially the middle part of the book, is a story about how he came to be a reader and how he developed this incredible curiosity and how he believed that by becoming a reader and becoming thirsty for knowledge, he freed himself. And so he's literally in prison, describing himself as free because of the power of books.

Love that. And a young person with a question. Hello.

Okay.

My name is Hair, by the way.

Thank you.

My name is Luna. And so I really appreciate the stuff you do by making books about people and everything. What do you think that. Oh my God, I forgot his name. I freaking forgot his name.

Take your time.

I bring. Wait, no. Oh, Malcolm Live. Malcolm would give advice to kids. That's a great question. Let's give a round of applause. We love when a young person asks the question, what advice do you think Malcolm would give kids today?

So I want to share something that he actually stated he wrote in one of his notebooks that's actually in the book. So there's an image of this in the book and that is him saying, and I'm paraphrasing that, be kind to people because you never know what they're going through. And I think that's just a powerful message to convey to young people because I think it gives you a sense of empathy. Because even if the person in front of you is not crying, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not in deep pain. And your kindness could do. Could be the work could make the world for them in that moment, just as you compounding their pain, you know, could, could of course really harm them. And so kindness even, you know, to everyone because you're always thinking about that person could be going to something I think is a powerful message he would have given to kids.

That's awesome. Okay, last question.

Thank you for putting this on this evening. My question is a little bit more of a light hearted question. And it's in this society and just in general, we have a lot of young people who are striving athletically to do a lot of different things. But through the reading and coming to know Malcolm and particularly in your journey, as you kind of studied him a lot, my question more is just about his humor, his wit, his. His ability to engage people with a level of humor that I think draws people in. Yes, sometimes it's. He's saying things that obviously that, that excite people. But I think that, you know, you know, as James Baldwin has said. And, you know, being in this society can kind of drive you crazy at times. And I feel like he had a way of kind of using his wit, his intellect, his humor, all the different things to navigate difficult times as well as some hard times and bring people together, too. So in your reading and writing and studying and putting this book together, can you just speak a little bit about that?

Sure. So I just want to give two examples because indeed, I'm happy you mentioned that, because privately, Malcolm was a huge jokester, so we can't really know that necessarily for sure. We don't have a lot of stories of that. But all the sort of reports and evidence that we do have speaks to Malcolm having a pretty lighthearted personality when he was in private. But some of that came out publicly. And probably the most obvious example is the day that he was sort of literally suspended from the Nation of Islam. So he gives a speech in Manhattan, and not long prior to this, Kennedy JFK had been assassinated. And Elijah calls him up and says, don't say anything about the Kennedy assassination. Malcolm had been deeply critical of Kennedy's, particularly his foreign policy. And so Malcolm. And when I say his foreign policy, he felt that Kennedy was not protecting Patrice Lumumba and a whole host of other African leaders who were facing the wrath of the CIA or even other European, former colonial sort of assassinations. And then he, of course, was upset of the. Kennedy's response to the four girls who were killed in Birmingham, which happens literally weeks before that, the assassination of Medgar Evers. And so he gives this speech. He doesn't say anything about Kennedy, but then somebody asked him in the. In the Q and A period, what do you think about Kennedy's assassination? So Malcolm just couldn't help himself, right? So he tells a joke, right? He. He. Which is really not funny, but he tells a joke about the chickens coming home to roost. And. But the way he told the joke, he literally had the entire crowd laughing right in the way he told the joke. And so that's just one example of a deeply serious moment. But he decided to tell a joke. Another example, and probably my favorite one, is when he's giving a speech and he basically talks about the enemies of black people. And he says that to black people, you wouldn't be here if some enemy didn't kidnap here, kidnap you and bring you here. And then he says, but then again, some of y' all think y' all came here on the Mayflower.

Please give her. I have to note that my T shirt, I wore this on purpose because I am here with my friends at Mahogany Books and it says that you cannot ban my history. This is somebody who has put forward our history fearlessly and so it makes sense that he would write a book about a fearless man, a fearless hero. Please give another round of applause to Dr. Ibram X Kendi and thank you Mahogany Books. Thank you to this wonderful library for having us and thank you all.

Give a round of applause for Joy Ann Reid as well.

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