We're All Complicit with De'Shawn Charles Winslow

[00:00:00] What's good, family? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, the host of Black & Published Podcast, and the author of the novel, The Seven Daughters of Dupree. This historical fiction novel is about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations, and is told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. The Seven Daughters of Dupree was published January 27th, 2026, and is available everywhere books are sold.

[00:00:28] So if you can, please consider getting a copy of The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. This is the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. I had written a long story and everyone just kept saying, it feels like you're trying to pack a novel into 36 pages. And I was like, I don't write novels. I'm not going to write a novel. And I think it was the third person who said the same thing or the third group.

[00:00:57] And I said, okay, I'll try to expand it. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, and this is Black & Published, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Deshawn Charles Winslow, author of the novel, The Fervent Whites.

[00:01:16] It's a get out-esque thriller set in early 80s upstate New York, with a secret about transracial adoption at the center of the novel, inspired by Deshawn's own life. I was afraid that one day he would come home at 16 or 17 years old and like scream the N-word at my mom or my other siblings for, you know, and I got a case. Now I'm catching a case.

[00:01:44] The Fervent Whites is Deshawn's third novel in a career he says he enjoys but sometimes regrets. In our conversation, he discusses the career option he at times wishes he would have pursued over a life in letters. Plus, how he's changed his intention on who he writes for. And the reason that in a novel featuring well-meaning white folks, a serial killer had to make an appearance.

[00:02:12] That and more is next when Black & Published continues. Deshawn, first question, welcome to Black & Published. When did you know that you were a writer?

[00:02:38] I don't think I knew I was a writer until, well, I knew I was a storyteller probably as a child, but I didn't think I would be a writer until I was around 30. What was significant about 30 that changed your mind and your trajectory to becoming a writer? My father passed unexpectedly when I was 29 and I was in college for business administration

[00:03:04] and I took a creative writing class because I thought I wanted to write some essays maybe about my childhood, specifically my relationship with my dad. And when I took the class, initially I did do that, but I found myself more interested in writing fiction based on nuggets of truth. And it just kind of went from there. So that's why 30. So then in starting to write fiction at 30, what was your goal?

[00:03:31] At that particular time, I thought it might be a side thing to do as a hobby slash potentially make some money because I was still a business major. And then I realized I wasn't enjoying anything I was doing related to business track educationally. And I didn't see myself working in a conglomerate.

[00:03:55] I didn't see myself working in banks or anything dealing with money and finance and managing people on a daily basis. And I said, you know what? I'm switching my major to English because I did see myself teaching and discussing literature and writing. Wow. That's a 180 because most people don't think, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and get this English degree and not this degree. Right.

[00:04:21] Especially when you're 30 and so you've been in life and life has been lifing and bills are real. Yes. I know it was, you know, it was kind of some days I have regrets. I won't lie. Some days I have regrets and wish I had continued. Yeah. Some days I wish I had continued with my business degree and gone into business administration and just done the writing as a side thing. I feel that way sometimes. Yeah.

[00:04:50] But not as much as it's not like it. 50%. It's probably 20%. Yeah. I still have to ask why. Because it's hard. You know, it can really be hard at making ends meet as a writer, especially a writer with no, I don't have any dependents. So much of that income goes back to the IRS. And, you know, I don't have a full-time teaching gig.

[00:05:17] I kind of hodgepodge gigs together to make a full-time salary and it's not a robust full-time salary. And I just, sometimes I wonder if I had continued my business degree, I might be managing, I might be district manager of some chain of stores and I might be making $250,000 a year or something. And, you know, and I make a fraction of that annually, a small fraction of that.

[00:05:43] So those are the moments when I'm like, yeah, sometimes I wish I had to stay in the business track. But even still, you say those moments when they do come, it's only like 20% of the time that you regret not pursuing business. So what is it about literature and writing specifically that fulfills you? It feeds my soul in a way. Writing and thinking about book ideas and reading is a form of therapy for me.

[00:06:11] Not all the time, you know, but I would say 70% of the time it's a secondary form of therapy. I learn things about myself and other people. I get a lot of questions answered about the world and humanity through the act of reading, writing, and wondering even. So that's why I stick with it. That doesn't mean I won't go out there and try to get a certification someday in some other thing where I can make some more money.

[00:06:40] But the teaching and the reading and the writing, it really feeds me in a way that keeps me happy most of the time. So then thinking about what you said, you switched your degree, moved over to English, creative writing. You could see yourself teaching and talking about literature. When you did that, was it always in your mind to write a novel or several novels now? Because this is book three that we're here for. Yeah, no, it was not at all.

[00:07:04] I thought when I first started taking creative writing classes, most of the time the instructors gave us stories to read or story collections to read. And I think that that was more for a practical reason. It's easier to discuss a story in a 75-minute class period than being able to have your students read two stories a week. But that sort of format kind of stuck with me, and I wasn't reading a ton of novels.

[00:07:29] I had read Morrison's novels, most of them by the time I had started taking creative writing classes. And I had read just about all of Elan Harris's novels, you know. But for some reason, because short stories were being fed to me so much, I thought, oh, I probably won't publish a book. I'll probably try to write stories and just publish one individual stories and maybe eventually a collection.

[00:07:54] Writing novels was far from my mind, and I really didn't even think I would have a book-length project at all. I really didn't. When did you know that you had a book-length project that was more than just a story? It was during my MFA. I had written a long story called Untying Knots. And that story, I workshopped it, and everyone just kept saying, it feels like you're trying to pack a novel into 36 pages.

[00:08:23] And this workshop was specifically for the long-form story. We could turn in a story up to 60 pages long. And so I think mine came in around 35 or 36, and workshopped it, and everyone just kept saying, yeah, this feels like a novel. I don't think you're going to be able to do it. And then I showed it to another instructor, and she said, yeah, it's feeling really, really novelistic. And I ignored that advice for a whole year.

[00:08:52] And I was like, I don't write novels. I'm not going to write a novel. And I think it was the third person who said the same thing or the third group. And I said, okay, I'll try to expand it. And then that story became in West Mills. What kind of mental gymnastics did it take for you to prepare yourself to expand your mind and wrap around the fact that the story that you thought you had is really a novel and then sit down and write it?

[00:09:18] So at first, I thought, oh, this should be pretty easy. I'll just open the document and just fill it out. Just go in from the top and just read it and just fill it out. I'll write it in chronological. I'll keep it in this order, la, la, la. And so the first couple of months, it felt easy. I'm just typing away. And the page length is growing and the word count is growing. And then I started to realize, oh, no, it's not that easy.

[00:09:48] You have to rethink these characters' trajectory. You have to go into their past some, you know, if not a lot. The story only had one POV. I had to decide to have multiple, at least two POVs. So at first, I was blinded by my own naivete about expanding. And it became a total rewrite. So it was fun, but it was work. It was work. Yeah. That's writing.

[00:10:18] It's fun. It can be fun. Yes. It is indeed labor. Yes, it is. So with that story becoming N. West Mills, did you finish it as a novel before you graduated with your MFA or upon graduation as your final project, thesis, whatever? Yeah. I had, well, our thesis only had to be about, I think it was 80 pages. And I think my first draft of N. West Mills was really short.

[00:10:47] It was only like 145 pages. And that was because I wanted to write a really short novel. Justin Torres, his book came out, his first book, We the Animals, which I think is 124 pages. And I loved that novel. And I said, oh, I want to do this. I want to write a novel that's only like 130 pages and, but can tell a full story. And at that stage of graduation, that's what I had. I had like a 140 something page novel.

[00:11:16] But it wasn't until after graduation and after querying that very short version to like 20 something agents and them all telling me it's too short, you would have to expand it, you know? And then I stopped querying and I expanded to a 270 something page. That's a big jump from 124 to 270. I know. I know. I doubled the length.

[00:11:42] Now doubling it, I found that to be really, really fun. Because when I started at the top and just would read through it, I was like, oh, this is the chance for me to add a paragraph about this, paragraph about that. Oh, a backstory scene, a one page backstory scene related to that. That part was fun. And I really enjoyed that second expansion from short novel to normal length novel. What's the most fun about writing for you?

[00:12:10] For me, I think the most enjoyable part is imagining, I write a lot of dialogue. And so imagining those two characters having that conversation, like, and I'm sitting in a chair or in a corner watching it and listening to it. That is the most fun. And when I'm tweaking the dialogue, it's almost like in my head, it's almost like I'm a director of a play or something. And it's like, I'm like, no, stop them and change that line.

[00:12:40] She wouldn't say it that way. You know? I get really in my head when I'm writing. And it's almost like I'm on a set of a movie or a play or something like that. Yeah. So that's the fun of it. Once you expanded in West Meals from 124 to 270, what was your experience on the second round of querying and trying to enter the publishing industry with this manuscript that you expanded and took the feedback on?

[00:13:05] The second time I got much better responses and I had a few agents who were interested. And I didn't query it widely on the second go around because I said, you know what, this time I'll just query four agents instead of 10, you know? And I query the agents who had read that first draft and said, it really needs to be expanded and I would love to see an expanded version.

[00:13:34] So I started with those. And actually only one, my agent, PJ, of that group of people who said, I would love to see it when you've expanded it. He is the only one who made an offer of representation. Are we talking about PJ Mark, correct? PJ Mark. Yes. I think that was the only offer you needed, sir. It was. With his reputation and who he represents. Right. PJ wouldn't even take my email. It's no tea, no shade.

[00:14:04] PJ wouldn't even take my email, okay? Oh, gosh. It was probably because he had so many sitting in his inbox. It's fine. We won't dwell. I'm not mad. We won't dwell. I ended up where I was supposed to be. Yes, yes. Okay. So it's been seven years since the novel came out. So many more years since you've been doing this professionally when you never thought that that would be the case. Right.

[00:14:32] How has your publishing trajectory surprised you over these years? I really never thought, especially as a Black male writer, I see that we are a really small portion, I think, of the publishing industry. You know, men of color in general. And, of course, people of color are a small portion in general.

[00:14:56] But I kind of thought that I would publish one book and it wouldn't sell well enough to get another book deal. And I was okay with that. And I had already started making plans. I was like, okay, if you go and do a PhD in English to try to become a professor, what would you teach? You know, what would be your area? And I didn't get that far. I didn't apply or anything.

[00:15:20] But I pretty much decided that that was the path I would probably end up going, that I would probably have one book, maybe two. And that was it. And I think another thing that surprised me is that, which I'm happy about, as I'm a more commercial writer than I thought I was. I know that N. West Mills was not highly literary, you know.

[00:15:41] But I thought my work would not, I didn't think that people would enjoy it, would also be like, oh, you're all so funny. There's also a lot of humor in your work. And I was just like, really? You know, and so I didn't know that my work, I didn't expect for my work to have not mass appeal, but I expected it to have a small audience. And I was really surprised that it had a larger audience than I ever imagined.

[00:16:10] And that's without being a bestseller. It's probably modest compared to bestsellers, but it's still way more readers than I thought I would ever have. So that's the surprise for one of them. And so now that we are talking about The Fervent Whites, which is your third book, have you gotten over that initial shock of your success in this space? Yeah, I think so.

[00:16:34] And I think part of the reason why I've gotten over it now is because I am intentionally writing more for readers than for other writers, if I'm going to be honest. And what I mean by that is that when I was writing N. West Mills, there were times where I wondered, will this book be read?

[00:16:55] Because coming out of an MFA program, you just always imagine your work being read by other MFA students sometimes, you know, at some time later. And so I thought about that a little bit as I wrote. But with decent people and definitely with fervent whites, I was more concerned about writing for people who, everyday people who don't, who are not all up in academia and teaching and analyzing every other sentence.

[00:17:23] And just sort of reading for fun, reading to learn something, but reading for fun also. And I think that's the reason why, because I am writing more for readers' enjoyment, I think that's why it's not as shocking that my readership is increasing. Because I'm doing what I tried to do, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. What kind of reader were you thinking about when you conceived of The Fervent Whites?

[00:17:50] The type of reader who likes a book, like in West Mills, small community type novel, a story with small knit community, tight knit community, everybody knows each other. But also a reader who likes a little bit of gore, just a little bit of blood, a little bit of fear, you know? So I wanted to write a book where I could keep my current readers, but get some new readers as well. That was the goal. Yeah.

[00:18:16] But I also, I think, I don't know if I could ever write a book that doesn't address social issues in this country. So I knew that I had to put that in there too, you know? And for readers to be okay with it. What specifically were you looking at with The Fervent Whites and talking about society today, even though this, isn't this in like the 80s? In the 80s and 82. Yeah. I knew I had to have a homophobia piece in there.

[00:18:46] Because homophobia is alive and well and has always been, you know? So I knew that had to go in there. And because my parents were foster care providers and had children in their homes who were various races, predominantly Black kids. But once in a while they got a Latino kid or a couple of white kids. One time my mama had a set of three white children at once.

[00:19:11] But there was one little boy in particular that she adored, a white boy that she adored so much. And he was in, I think he was in her home for maybe going on two years. And she called me one day. And at this point, my father had passed. And she called me one day and she said, I think I'm going to adopt. His name was either Ethan or Nathan. I'm going to call him Ethan today. She said, I think I'm going to adopt Ethan. And I said, Ma, you can't adopt that boy.

[00:19:39] First of all, you're 60 something years old. He's four. You know, I was like, no. And I was like, you don't know how to, you can't raise a little white kid. Like, you can't do it. You know? And she was like, well, I'm going to. And I said, okay. And, but it, you know, it ended up not working out because his grandfather ended up doing what he needed to do to be able to take him. Yeah. But she was very serious about it.

[00:20:07] And, you know, I didn't, I mean, I didn't mind that she was considering adopting a white child. I just, I was thinking more about her age and how could she teach him what life would be like for him living in a black household. How would she deal with a young white boy when he started to reach puberty and teenage years?

[00:20:30] How would she deal with, with what he might start picking up from society about his place in the world? And like how, you know, I think quite frankly, Nikesha, I was afraid that one day he would come home 16 or 17 years old and like scream the N word at my mom or my other siblings. Or. And now you got a dad. You know? And. And I got a case. Now I'm catching a case.

[00:21:00] You know? I would imagine she would have taught him never to use that word and all that stuff, but teens pick up shit from other kids. And, you know, so I was glad it didn't work out for that reason. But I believe she would have been a great mother to him. And, you know, and I believe white parents can be really great parents to children of color.

[00:21:26] I just believe that they have to make sure that those children are being exposed to people like them regularly and that they understand that. Yes, we are your white parents and we are raising you a certain way. But when you walk out of this door, everyone won't know that. I don't know if I believe you because I've read the book. But if you want to say that's what you believe, I'm going to let you have it today, sir. I don't know if I believe you. I don't even know if your readers will believe you.

[00:21:56] But if that's the hill you want to die on, go for it. Can you read something from The Fervent Whites as you've set it up of how the inspiration came? And then we can talk about these people. Sure, sure. The Fervent Whites by Deshawn Charles Winslow is a novel about James and Ella White, a white couple in the predominantly black community of Fervent in upstate New York who returned home from prison after being wrongly convicted of murder.

[00:22:25] Their arrival sends a jolt of fear through their entire community, especially two of their black neighbors who, while the whites were gone, betrayed their confidence to their adopted black son. Here's Deshawn. I'll just read a page right from the top of the book. The triplet of knocks came from the front door just as Sylvia Upshaw and her two children were putting on their shoes about to walk over to Miss Talbot's house.

[00:22:53] Sylvia's daughter, Gigi, her firstborn, peered through the living room window, which looked out onto the small front lawn. It's the whites, she said. The whites? James and Ella White? Syl asked. A sudden pang of fear fluttered in her stomach. Then Syl's son, RJ, had a look. What the? RJ said, his eyes fixed on their unexpected guests.

[00:23:20] Syl shooed her teens away from the window and glanced out herself. There they stood, James and Ella White, her fresh-out-of-prison neighbors. James was rocking back and forth on his heels. Ella stood still, wearing what Syl might describe as a half-smile. James stretched his neck and winced. Everyone in the hamlet of Fervent, in all of Saugerties, and maybe even in the whole Hudson Valley, knew they had been released from prison a week ago.

[00:23:50] But no one had expected them to return to the neighborhood. The two of them stood on Syl's porch, which, in actuality, is just a wide square block of cement. Only one of Syl's kitchen chairs could fit. Syl had asked her ex-husband to build a real port so that they could sit out on it together. But he never got around to it. He had been too busy getting around to other women's needs. Always a trash-ass man in the picture, okay?

[00:24:21] First of all, what you're doing with this title is a lot. The community is named Fervent. Yeah. The villains are the whites. Yes. And then we have the Fervent whites, which is really... The community used to be all white, and then it became black. And now there's one, like, all white couple that's still there. And then these people. Yeah. James and Ella.

[00:24:49] Did you have this title going in to write this story? Or did it come later? The title came early. First, it was Oh, How Fervent. That was the first title. And I think I came up with that title maybe when I was around the first 50 pages. And then I switched it to the Fervent whites. And I think that was after I decided to name James and Ella, give them the last name of white.

[00:25:18] And then I kept writing. And I realized after sort of analyzing that there was a lot of race-based violence perpetrated by white people. I was like, Oh, these are like the most fervent type of white people you can find. The ones who are white supremacists, you know? And so I was like, Wow, that title is... Wow, it's perfect.

[00:25:44] It's working on so many different levels in the book. Like, I was like, Hmm. Very clever. We're doing a lot here. So you talked about the social issues that you wanted to examine. Homophobia being one of them. You have Sylvia's best friend, Fate, is queer. And he's very upfront about like, Hey, if that's going to be a problem for you, let me know now. And we don't even have to do this. This introduction.

[00:26:09] So he doesn't hide in a way that people would assume that he's in the closet or that he's straight. But he does still mask. But I think because of the time period or tries to have some discretion. Some discretion. Because of the time period, but it's not a secret. So we have that. And then we have the whites who adopted and have raised a black child almost to grown. To grown. But then they end up going to prison. Yes. For murder.

[00:26:40] But in the scene you just read, they're back from prison. They're just returning. Because they did not actually do that murder. Right. Right. And now they're getting ready to stir up a whole heap of trouble. Yeah. And as I was reading, I was like, this is racist. But this is also white people. And I hope no one takes any offense by that. Because I was like, I don't know.

[00:27:09] I couldn't find the line. And so I'm reading. And you're breadcrumbing me. And I'm like, it's something not right. Something's not turning all the way over. And then I want to say in like the last 30 pages, you punched me at my face. And I was like, oh, I was right the whole time. Like, okay. So like, I feel like as a black reader, you want us to be gaslit. It's like, is that the goal? You're gaslighting us from jump? A little bit. Yeah.

[00:27:39] A little bit. What I try to do in my fiction is I try to, especially when it comes to race, I try to make room for blind spots. Because I think that very well-meaning people, and in this case, we're talking about race. But I think very well-meaning white people sometimes do racist things without even realizing it.

[00:28:08] You know, and so adopting a black child, living in a black community, but not wanting black people to help you or give you little tips about what works for black children. You know, that's racist. Like, that's disregarding your child's identity, essentially. That's something that I think about or have thought about a lot, especially with my mom's almost adopting a white kid, you know?

[00:28:38] And I'm just like, no, what you, you know, just to bring it back to that example again, what I said to her is you see him as who he is right this moment. You know? You see him as a little boy who doesn't know race or anything. And sometimes I have to say, sometimes I wonder if that's what happens when people do cross-racial adoption. When the children are infants so very small that maybe they forget that later will come, you know?

[00:29:08] And I'm not saying not to do it, but I'm saying you got to think that whole thing through. Because we live in America. And it really doesn't even matter what country. There's racism everywhere, you know, except for in all predominantly homogenous countries, you know? Okay. So then where did serial killers come from? So that part, I got a little surprised by the whole ad in the serial killer part. So do you remember?

[00:29:38] I know. What? How were you surprised? Right. I was like. It's fine, because as a reader, I was surprised. I was like, wait, what? Now he done threw it in a soul. It's a serial killer? And they're two. They're two. Right. So the Tops, do you remember the shooting in Buffalo, New York? Tops grocery store? Yeah. Yes. Okay. So when that happened, I was still working on Decent People.

[00:30:07] I think I was like in the final round of edits, maybe. When I was starting Decent People, I was living upstate New York. By this time, I was no longer upstate. But the Tops shooting made me think about racial dynamics in rural parts of the North, you know? And I did some Googling. I can't remember what I typed in the search. But I must have typed in something like, right supremacy upstate New York or something like that.

[00:30:35] And I got a hit about a serial killer named, his name was either Christoph Joseph or Joseph Christoph. I can't remember what his name was. But he did, basically, he killed mostly Black people. And his killing spree was upstate New York. They were never people that he knew. They were just innocent Black people going on about their lives.

[00:30:59] And when I found that piece of information, I said, oh, I have got to use that. And that's why the book is set in 82. Because I think he was caught in 81 or something like that. And so that's why there's a serial killer in the book. Because I was like, I cannot not use that at all. Okay. Yeah. Kitchen sink. You punched me in my face.

[00:31:29] Like, literally. I was like, wait, what? Go back. Did I miss a picture? How did we get to here? But then also, you put that in there as well as having a book club where they're in conversation about Song of Solomon. What is the importance of that novel to you? And why did it have to appear here? When people ask me, what's your favorite Morrison novel? Now I can't pin it down. But at the time, I would say Song of Solomon.

[00:31:59] Well, Song of Solomon was probably my favorite from like 2015 up until maybe a few years ago. And now I think Paradise might be my favorite. But I remember that Milkman was learning things about his whole family that he didn't know at all. And there were things that his father didn't want him to know about their past. But he was telling him negative things about his own mom and all that sort of stuff. And I was like, oh, this is kind of like a parallel.

[00:32:28] I mean, Milkman doesn't get killed. Well, we don't know how that novel ends because Morrison keeps it. They fly. They fly. Yeah. But I was like, well, he doesn't, you know, he doesn't like die as a result of learning something that we know of. But it's a parallel that this information that he's getting, he's learning from it.

[00:32:50] But it's also causing him pain to learn that his father is mean and abandoned his aunt and that his mother had a maybe weird relationship with her dad. So I was like, I'm going to use that parallel. And also my readers who like character driven books and know Morrison's work will appreciate that nod, I thought. You know, and she remains my favorite author.

[00:33:15] So I was like, well, this will be my one time maybe to throw in a direct Morrison reference in my work. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I enjoyed it. And then the conversation that unfolds among the characters in the novel and fervent around it at this book club that has all the character types of black women and people. And then here come this white lady talking about she don't like the novel, but she's really using it as a foil to talk about what has happened to her son.

[00:33:42] Because the whites go into prison with their son still alive and they come out of prison and he is no longer with us. And the book is like really built around secrecy and revenge. And how far will someone go? Will a parent go to protect their family? I think. And I think that can be extrapolated to the wider community.

[00:34:06] How far will a community go to protect their own, to look out for their own at a time when we don't do that anymore? Right. So in putting the novel in this time period and exploring those things about, you know, what we will do for love, even to the brink of catching cases. Is there something that you want to say about how we're not relating to one another now?

[00:34:27] I don't know how much that would have been on my mind when I was writing this, but we don't come out for each other the way people did in the 50s and the 60s and stuff like that. Yes, there are, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement and parades and marches and stuff. But I think like on a day to day basis, I think we have become a very individualistic people, you know, and it can't be helping us.

[00:34:57] Not when hundreds of thousands of Black women have become unemployed over the past, what, five, six months maybe? 600,000 Black women have been unemployed since the Trump administration took office last year. See, that is crazy, you know? And I feel like if we were doing better as a community, that number would not be as high or we would have jobs for them.

[00:35:26] In our own businesses and stuff like that. I don't know. I mean, I definitely don't want to blame us for it, but I don't know. I feel like we got to do better on a whole. I really do. We got to do business together, come together and create things more. And sadly, it has to go beyond art. Because one thing that I have learned as being a writer is that some types of art sell and some types don't.

[00:35:56] So, you know, we have to come together in ways that build us and build longevity. What built the community of fervent? I think fervent, the second wave, I think, was built because white people ran away. And I guess it remained Black because it was predominantly Black. But these, you know, these Black people, like Seal works at the factory.

[00:36:24] And I don't go into where other people work. But in my head, most of them are blue-collar workers. You know, fate is a teacher. So I would imagine other people there are also taught. But these are people who are like, okay, we got this property. And we got an opportunity to buy it. And that's stake our claim to it. You know? So they have that in common. I don't picture my characters all being best friends. Because that's why we only see glimpses of Seal with peaches.

[00:36:54] When Gloria Ann talks to them a little bit. And Susie, the religious fanatic. Like, so I didn't, I definitely didn't want to create a community where everyone is just the like, you know? But at their core, they are Black people who are trying to stake a claim. And they generally care about each other. Do you think Black people and white people can cohabitate and let the same community together and still be true community?

[00:37:23] Yes, I think it's possible. But I think that what is probably required for it to be truly harmonious is for the white people in that community to fully accept their Black or POC neighbors' cultures. Don't try to mute it. Muffle it. You know? And... Literally and figuratively. Right. Literally and figuratively.

[00:37:51] Don't try to change the Black people in that neighborhood or the people of color in that neighborhood. And that's whether the Black people were there first or the white people were there first. You know? And I think that that can be a problem with gentrification. So yeah, I think it's possible. But I think as long as the white people don't try to muffle the other people. And I think we see that possibility a little bit at the end of the novel when Seal is saved by a neighbor.

[00:38:24] For those who are confused about the conversation, I'm trying not to give any spoilers. Clearly. Yeah. But what do you want readers to take away from this novel that is so steeped in social issues that does feel a little bit like gaslighting until you get to, like, the punch in the face and then it's all like, oh, I knew it! At the end when they close their final page.

[00:38:47] I think the biggest takeaway that I want people to have is that we all can be complicit in varying degrees, obviously. But we all can be a little complicit in the mess. And I think what I hope people will take away from this book and Decent People is that if we just try to do basic good, a lot of times, it doesn't mean it can change other people into being good.

[00:39:16] But if we are examples of just sort of, like, pure goodness and kindness, then we might be able to make some changes. I think that's the major takeaway. I'm going to go to this here speed round and this game that we got. You've already answered the first question. Well, one of the questions, but we're going to try it anyway. What is your favorite book? I'm going to say currently, Toni Morrison Paradise. And once again, for the people, who was your favorite author? Toni Morrison.

[00:39:45] Who is your favorite artist? Any medium? That's going to be Whitney Houston. May she rest in peace. May she rest. What do you think is the best book to movie or book to series adaptation? I'm going to go with Color Purple for now. The first one. Yes. The original. The first film. The first film from 1984 or five, something like that. Yes. We have to clarify now. I had other people say that Color Purple.

[00:40:12] Well, we have to clarify the first film with Danny Glover and Wolfie Goldberg. Yes. And Margaret Avery and them real ones. Yes. If the fervent whites got the screen treatment since it's pitched as being like get out, who would you want to play Sylvia and Fate?

[00:40:37] I think I would like Fate to be played by one of the African-American young men who was in Pose. And for Seal, Seal is hard. Because I don't know that I have an image of her in my mind as much as I have for Fate. I think for Seal, I would go with the Smollett young lady. Journey. Yep. I think I might go with her.

[00:41:06] If money were no object. I like how you confirmed this for yourself. Money were no object. Where would you go? What would you do? And where would you live? I would stay here. I live in Jersey, really close to New York City. I would stay in the New York area. I really love New York City. So that's where I would live. But I would visit all the Caribbean islands, just about all of them, annually.

[00:41:36] And I would buy or build a huge compound for my aunts and first cousins to live on, especially like my single first cousins. I would build a big compound for them all to live in, in my hometown of North Carolina. Basically like five little houses all on a piece of land, gated, you know? Yeah. That's what I would do. Name three things on your bucket list.

[00:42:06] Hmm. Okay. Scuba diving. The piece of land that my mother was born and raised on. One, I would love to build a house that modeled after the house that they were born and raised in. And the third one, I don't know if I believe this in my heart, but I might skydive. I might. I would put, the prayer sheet would have to be already out before I even jump. That's not how that works, friends. It's not how it works. I know.

[00:42:37] So I don't think, I don't think that's going to happen for you, but we'll leave, we'll leave it on the list. That's your bucket list. All right. What brings you joy? There are a lot of things that bring me joy, but one of them is going for a walk in nice weather with a favorite playlist of songs that I know all the words to.

[00:42:59] And just sort of walking like two miles and listening to however many songs and getting back home and not even remembering to walk. You know, just almost leaving my body. Almost. What's on the playlist? It's a mix. Lately, I have been listening to a lot of 90s gospel, and I'm not sure what triggered that, but I've been listening. I grew up in church, you know. I did. And I was in gospel.

[00:43:26] Yeah, I was in gospel choirs and stuff. And I don't remember, I must have heard a 90s song over the past six months, and I have been listening to 90s gospel. Hezekiah Walker and Ricky Dillard and Sean Patry. John P. Kee and them. You know? Yep. Yep. That 90s gospel, I've been listening to a lot of it. But it's also mixed in with some contemporary music.

[00:43:53] I don't listen to a lot of rap, but I've been listening to some Drake and Kendrick Lamar ever since. They had that feud last year. And some R&B, like some Whitney Houston. I got all her songs. I mixed in there, you know. And I like some 60s music. I like Aretha's, like, 60s albums when it was just, like, instruments, you know? I did a rewatch of Scandal, and then all I listened to after that was Aretha Franklin.

[00:44:22] And still, I was, like, watching Scandal, it's like, all you want to do is go listen to old song music. Aretha Franklin and Otis Redden and just vibe out. Yep. Yep. What brings you peace? Being at home, either alone or just with one person, you know, my love interest, that brings me peace.

[00:44:44] Being at home, feeling safe, feeling a certain amount of security, like basic financial security. Like, not wondering where the next rent is going to come from, you know? Or how am I paying my light bill? I don't need to be wealthy, you know? But just having some, like, basic financial security, that brings me a lot of peace. Because there have been times when I haven't had that.

[00:45:12] Even though, from my own design, living foolishly, you know, after I left home. And he was outside. And too proud. I was outside, like I was a millionaire and had $700, maybe. You can do a lot with $700. You can. They do a whole lot. But you can do a lot with $700. Our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wish you would have written.

[00:45:42] I wish I had written Charles Dickens' Bleak House. I like that book, but it would have been shorter. I got a lot of my themes from N. West Mills came from that book. Like, people not knowing who their real mama is and stuff like that. I don't know if I've ever had a Dickens reference in this part of the show. I know. Way to be a first. I love it. I'm here for it. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? I'm going to get in trouble for this.

[00:46:11] But I would change the ending of Sula. I would make that ending a little bit happier. I wouldn't have Sula die at the end. I would keep her alive. Yeah. I've heard that before. And now my actually messy question. Name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught, Professor, and why? Okay. All right. I'm about to do it. I'm about to do it.

[00:46:40] I believe that Baldwin's Giovanni Room is a good book, but it is not a book that I find myself recommending to people. And it's not a book that I reread. Like, I reread Sula and Paradise and Song of Solomon. I reread those books like every other year. Giovanni's Room is not a book that I return to.

[00:47:08] And it just didn't hit for me like that. But I understand its importance. But it just... I've heard that critique before. I think it was from Michael Arsenault, who said something similar. Final question. When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind?

[00:47:29] I would like for people to say that my work didn't shy away from uncomfortable realities about interpersonal relationships and whether they are related to race or just like within the Black community or within, you know, that I don't shy away from uncomfortable topics. You know, I think that's what I want people to say.

[00:47:57] Big thank you to Deshawn Charles Winslow for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Deshawn on the socials at Deshawn Charles Winslow on Instagram and threads. And make sure you check out The Fervent Whites, out now from One World. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week.

[00:48:27] If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram or YouTube pages. It's at Black & Published and that's B-L-K & Published. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Deshawn about the secrets at the center of the novel and the question he wants people to ask themselves while reading. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:48:55] I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Savala Nolan, author of the essay collection, Good Woman, A Reckoning. What is the cost of the way that women and girls are socialized to be good in this culture? And what kind of freedom can we reach? Can we create for ourselves if we decide, I'm not going to fucking be so good all the time in every facet of my life anymore?

[00:49:25] That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform

[00:49:54] you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.