We All Cousins with Nikkolas Smith

[00:00:00] Hey Black and Published family, it's Nikesha. I want to say thank you for rocking with me these last few years. Over the course of these five seasons, I've shared with you the journeys of countless writers, including myself. I've told you about starting out as a self-published author and when my first nonfiction book came out in 2022. I have a new novel coming out in January entitled The Seven Daughters of Dupree. The story is a generational epic about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations,

[00:00:29] told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. And it's available for pre-order now, everywhere you get your books. I am beyond excited for this novel. It is my first big five book, more on that later. And I'd like to make it a success and I need your help to do that. If you can, please consider pre-ordering The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. Now let's get to the episode.

[00:00:59] This book is what I call educational justice. Like it is that thing that can kind of be put in place for that missing gap. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:01:23] Today's guest is Nicholas Smith, the author and illustrator of the new picture book, The History of We. It's a book he says shows the lineage for every human on earth, beginning with Black people and Africa.

[00:01:37] When I was growing up, I feel like the modern human era wasn't in the history lessons. Modern humans in Africa invented so many things. Literally like over 70,000 years ago, like antifungal cream from plants and the ashango bone where they started to do like lunar phase counting and like mapping out the stars in the Congo. And in the history books, like this was never there.

[00:02:04] A trained architect who used to work for Disney designing theme parks, Nicholas always viewed his art as a hobby. Why he is grateful for the winding path that led him to his passion and now his full-time role as an illustrator. Plus, the Jim Crow era story that was one inspiration point for The History of We. And the viral piece he created for the 2016 Summer Games as a tribute to Simone Biles that led to his first book deal and current career.

[00:02:33] That and more is next when Black & Published continues. Nicholas, when did you know that you were a writer? First and foremost, I realized from the beginning that I was an artist, always making art for as long as I can remember.

[00:03:01] When I decided to go to college, I went to Hampton University, studied architecture. And from there, found out about Disney and Imagineering and became an Imagineer, designing theme parks. But when I was at Hampton, I would do like political cartoons for the newspaper. So that was kind of the moment where I was like, okay, well, I can kind of craft some sort of visual story that gives commentary on what's happening in the world.

[00:03:28] So that was kind of the moment where I started to add some words to my art. As I was doing the architecture thing, professionally, I would just make art all the time. I started to do a lot of artivism, weekly, what I call Sunday sketches. And really, you know, like looking at what's happening in the world, the broken bones, the things that need to be fixed, making art connected to that. But then also, like I said, like adding, you know, some sort of poetry or some sort of written commentary with art.

[00:03:56] And then in 2016, one of my art pieces about the Rio Olympics went viral and that became the opportunity to create my first picture book. So within a few months, I was a published author and illustrator. And from then, it just kind of snowballed into more and more opportunities to combine my words with my art. So you are an artist, artist through and through. Yes.

[00:04:19] But it seems like your art has been the place for you to express your feelings, opinions, frustrations with the state of affairs in the world. You mentioned being a political cartoonist for the Hampton University newspaper and doing artivism. What is it about a canvas, a blank canvas, much like for writers with a blank page, that makes you feel free enough to express what you may not always want to say out loud?

[00:04:47] I think a blank canvas kind of just, it can be a very scary thing in a way. But then it's also, it can be an opportunity to tell a million different things. And then also, like they say, like a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes art has that ability to be that healing thing or the thing that can't really be expressed. And so for me, the whole journey really started as artist therapy, right?

[00:05:12] So it's interesting now that the art that I'm making, whether it's making tribute art for somebody who is a victim of police brutality or any sort of injustice, a lot of times people will use the art to be the thing that says what they don't really have words to talk about. So it just kind of became this unveiling or this process over time of like, my art really can be that thing that speaks.

[00:05:39] And then there's so many things to talk about in the world that are now working right. What I call the broken bones of the world, the things that need to be fixed. Sometimes it's like art is the thing that can deliver that message, you know. I want to go to what you were talking about, having a piece of work go viral about the Rio Olympics and then being sought after to do a children's book and do a picture book. What was that artwork and what was that process like for you?

[00:06:09] So that was 2016. At that point, three years of me creating Sunday sketches or just weekly art about what's happening in the world. And I grew up in Spring, Texas. I went to school with Simone Biles' big brothers. And so like when I would go over to their house many years ago, I would see this little kid doing cartwheels and stuff. And she grew up to be like the biggest gymnast of all time. And so I told them I was going to make some artwork.

[00:06:36] And so I had created this art piece of her. But then like a lot of women who have won gold medals at the Olympics. And it was just a kind of cool little art piece of like maybe 10, 15 women with gold medals or something. And at the time, you know, I never made a picture book. I said, I've kind of posted it on the internet to say, would anybody like to see a picture book that looks like this?

[00:07:01] And I think part of it was also just like that representation of, for one, so many women of color who had just like achieved the success that they wanted to in life. You know, that was just a beautiful thing to see. And it went viral. So many people shared it on social media. And there was actually a Barnes & Noble rep who contacted me and was like, can you turn this into a picture book in three weeks?

[00:07:30] I was like, yes, I can. And it was literally like three weeks of nonstop like speed painting. So I just cranked out three weeks of art and, you know, told the stories of the women. And it would just, it just became like this eye opener for me. Like I love to be able to tell stories that can kind of bring together all ages. Like I don't really call my books children's books. I just feel like they're picture books.

[00:08:00] Anybody who kind of vibes with the story can check it out. So when you did that picture book of the Olympians for Barnes & Noble, was that directly for the store? Like just you and the store negotiating? So that was a rep with a smaller publisher in New York. And so I worked with them and I had an editor and they kind of helped me along with the process. It was my first one.

[00:08:24] So just kind of guided me to the very short, you know, deadline to the finish line. And then it was done in a month. And they really wanted to have it by Thanksgiving and the holidays and everything. So that was almost 10 years ago. At that time, were you still working full-time as an architect and doing all the different things with designing theme parks and that type of thing? I was, yes. I was an Imagineer for 11 years.

[00:08:52] And so it was doing the theme park architecture thing full-time and going home nights and weekends and making art. And I was really learning digital painting, learning speed painting, just kind of picking that up along the way. But so many opportunities like that kept popping up. Like, yes, I was a full-time architect. But then at the same time, I was now a published author and illustrator.

[00:09:18] And then I was also connecting with Ryan Coogler, working on projects that he was working on, like Space Jam and stuff like that. And so I was doing concept art at the same, you know, here and there, I would do art for films, movie poster for Black Panther, all these different things while I was still doing the architecture. And then realizing that, oh, like, art is my passion. Like, I should be doing art full-time. So like I said, that was almost 10 years ago.

[00:09:45] And you mentioned all the different projects that you've worked on, Space Jam, Black Panther, concept art for films and things like that. But when did you walk away from architecture to pursue your artistry full-time? And how did it feel? I left Disney Imagineering in 2019, right before the pandemic.

[00:10:04] And in a way, I kind of didn't really walk away from architecture completely because I ended up collaborating with them about a year ago to do a tower for downtown Disney, which I did not expect. But they pulled me back in to do some more architecture stuff. So I feel like architecture is never gone. You know, it's always some, it's always like in the background and, you know, my schooling from Hampton. I feel like the architecture education always sticks with you in some sort of way and how you design spaces.

[00:10:33] And even I'm laying out classrooms when I was working with Ruby Bridges on her picture book. And it's always there in some sort of capacity. But yeah, that was 2019. I became a full-time illustrator. So yeah, it's been a little over five years now of making art full-time. And, you know, I feel like it's one of the greatest feelings to be able to first realize what my passion is.

[00:10:59] It took a little while, but realize what my passion is and realize that I can do this for a living. I go around the world to India and China. I'll be in Hawaii. I'll be in all these different places where I'm just talking to kids about art and making art to change the world. Sometimes it might just be like making a movie poster or making art for a film that, you know, people love or telling a story through a picture book form.

[00:11:23] So it's really one of the best feelings that for me, just like being able to create stories from sketches. It's a dream come true. Hmm. So you mentioned that it took you a while to find your purpose and to really believe that you could do it full-time. Why do you think it took you so long to realize that, hey, maybe this should be what I do for real? I was never the type of kid to say like, oh, I want to be an artist when I grew up. I just didn't really know what exactly I wanted to do.

[00:11:51] I knew that I liked making art all the time. But there's a lot of kind of draw towards in life, like what is the real job that I need to get when I graduate? Or maybe it's more of an engineering type of job that is a real job. And maybe art is not a real career, you know. And so it was just that kind of thing where I was like, okay, well, architecture, you know, I'm pretty good at math and I like to make art and feel architecture.

[00:12:19] But also for me, I feel like I need to try a lot of things before I can just decide on one thing. So I like the very windy path. I like the way that it led me to the full-time illustration world. Full-time illustrator. I'm going to add full-time writer for your picture books. Yeah. But really full-time artist. Now that you do this full-time and since doing that first book in 2016 with the small press and the Barnes & Noble request,

[00:12:49] what has your journey in the publishing industry been like coming from such an outsider's background, like not ever seeing this on your bingo card? It has been eye-opening for me. I've worked with most of the major publishers at this point. And it's been a really, I feel like a short amount of time since I left Disney right before the pandemic. It became kind of this explosion.

[00:13:14] Obviously in 2020, there was a lot going on in terms of social justice, artwork, artivism. And I got a lot of requests. The very first one, I feel like right after I became a freelance illustrator was for the 1619 project, Born on the Water picture book. And that was with Penguin. And there's also been the book about the Confederate flag called That Flag with HarperCollins and Ivor B. Bridges with Scholastic.

[00:13:41] And then also like with Disney, working on Black Panther picture books or Captain America. So I feel like it's been all of these like major windows into the publishing world. And I just feel very honored to be able to work with so many different groups in the world and see how all the different houses do their process of birthing a book into the world.

[00:14:06] And sometimes I'll do the illustration thing and there's an amazing author attached to it or I'll take on author illustrator combined. Every book is really its own unique process. But I've really enjoyed being a part of the picture book world.

[00:14:24] I love that it's always connected to the librarian community and the school community who there's just so many kids who it's really a big chunk of their school years connecting to these picture books that can maybe tell them about a part of American history that they didn't know about or just fun, inspirational stories that may be like a superhero. It really goes back to the reason why I wanted to make picture books in the first place.

[00:14:49] Like all of these books that are created are in a way, a lot of times their purpose is to gather around the whole community from three years old to 103 years old. Like everybody can come together and partake in this cool story and we can talk about how it opened our eyes to something or inspired us to do something. And I just, I love that. Has it been at all overwhelming?

[00:15:14] I feel like the process of getting the books out, sometimes the deadlines that I have can be a bit tough, but I personally, I don't want to spend, I never want to spend like a lot of time on one art piece and I don't want to spend a ton of time creating one book. So I usually want to give myself a really rigorous deadline, like maybe three, four months to create, you know, illustrations for a book or something like that.

[00:15:44] And even for the history of we, as a hand painted book, it was like pretty quick to get the paintings onto the canvas. And even if I'm painting on canvas or digital, it's still speed painting. And so, you know, that kind of deadline of the time crunch that I have is, it's always helpful, but it can be overwhelming sometimes. You said you don't like to spend too much time on one painting or one book. Why?

[00:16:11] I guess it's just the way that my brain works. I think there was always that kind of like fear or worry connected to, you know, wanting it to be perfect. And so I try to tell young students now about my, my style is very loose and sketchy and sometimes unfinished. And it just kind of helps get that, get my mindset off of it being perfect. That's just the way that I create. Like I can't sit there for like two, three days on one piece.

[00:16:40] It's just like, I need to have that expressive energy, that movement, just that feel of like creating a speed painting, you know, it's just, there's something about it. And I think it kind of comes through in the end result with like the motion and the movement of the piece. And so I did start kind of digitally in that way. And it has transferred over into the acrylic on canvas, the way that I will do canvas pieces. It's the same process. So talk to me about the history of We.

[00:17:10] Where did that idea, the inspiration for this picture book come from? When I was young, I was here, like the kind of concept of like we all come from Africa. So there was always that in the back of my head. But there was a moment a few years ago, I was working on some promo art for Ava DuVernay's film Origin. I made a piece of this black child named Albright from the 1960s. And he was banned from swimming with his baseball teammates because of racism.

[00:17:37] And I was just thinking to myself, like there's so many stories of black kids who, because of the history of this country, they were never taught how to swim. Their parents and grandparents weren't allowed to swim. And I wish I could have told those kids, like, did you know that the first swimmers in human history look just like you? You know, like your ancestors invented swimming. Right. So it's just that kind of thing of like, don't ever let anybody tell you that you can't do anything. Right.

[00:18:07] And so since I can't like tell all those kids face to face this thing, you know, every marginalized child, I thought I would make a book about those kids first ancestors, which is actually all of our first ancestors. You know, if you go back far enough. So that kind of took me also back to my upbringing in Texas. And I feel like every kid in this country learns about what society values and doesn't value. And a lot of that is based off of what they are taught in textbooks, you know, in history class.

[00:18:35] And what we deem worthy of being taught to our kids really speaks volumes. Right. So but also like what is omitted from the textbook. And so, you know, when I was growing up, I feel like the modern human era, I feel like it wasn't in the history lessons. And so, you know, this concept of like, I mean, it's really like factual history, right? About this moment in history where modern humans in Africa invented so many things.

[00:19:04] Literally like over 70,000 years ago, like antifungal cream from plants and the ashango bone where they started to like do like lunar phase counting and like mapping out the stars in the Congo. And all these there's so many different things that in the history books, like this was never there. And then they would just go from a long, long time ago to like, oh, the cradle of civilization, like somewhere outside of Africa. And then, you know, people started to be brilliant.

[00:19:34] Like, but there is all this time in Africa, literally hundreds of thousands of years that never got talked about. So it's just like that ingenious dawn of humanity that I wanted to make art about and make a story about. In creating your picture book to fill in those gaps of history that are intentionally omitted.

[00:19:54] What was the process like for you in like pitching this to your agents, publishers, editors, and then actually doing it and hand painting the acrylic on canvas and writing the story of the first civilizations of people that came from the cradle of life, which is absolutely in Africa. This book is what I call educational justice. Like it is that thing that can kind of be put in place for that missing gap.

[00:20:24] And so just presenting that concept to Penguin, they're so great at championing like these types of stories and projects. And so it was kind of like a no brainer for them. Like, yeah, let's, let's do this. But then there was so much paleontology research. I had to look into tons of books from modern humanity. Right.

[00:20:47] The National Library of Medicine and things that I was saying about the Junipera Espinatia plant or whatever from 70,000 years ago, like in Morocco, like they know that this plant outside of this cave in Morocco was used by modern humans as anti-inflammatory cream, anti-fungal cream. It's fascinating stuff like that, where I just had to pull from all this like known scientific research.

[00:21:12] The fact that the first modern humans had the same skeletal structure as we do and the same brain capacity. They were literally like as intelligent as us and laughed and cried and spoke sentences with nouns and verbs just as we do. This 200,000 years ago. So, again, the story historically has been taught like the typical like trope of the cavemen and being dumb as rocks and stuff like that.

[00:21:39] But it's like, no, these were like ingenious people who did amazing things. Right. So being able to put that whole concept forward to Coquilla Penguin, it was a yes right away. And actually this process was creating the digital art first and really getting the look of it that I wanted. And then from there, I would match that and recreate it on canvas. And so that just kind of helped me visualize making the book exactly like the way that I wanted it to be.

[00:22:07] I wanted it to feel like a National Geographic documentary in a way because this is all factual history. Right. And so the book was even reviewed and vetted by the Leakey family who like Maeve Leakey was like one of the most important paleontologists of our time who's done this research. And it was all proved by them. And, you know, it's it's facts in here.

[00:22:32] And even in the back of the book, I have like a timeline with all of the modern human points from 200,000 years ago to 5,000 years ago. And a lot of the factual information that you'll kind of see throughout the book as I have the poetic words going with the imagery. But then you have all the facts in the back. For this book, it was probably a two and a half month process of speed paintings on canvas. It was a pretty quick process.

[00:23:01] Once I got the manuscript down to tell it exactly the way that I wanted to tell it, it was a beautiful process. The way it all came together and very excited about it. It's very special. It's very beautiful. And so with that said, can you read something from The History of We and then we can go further into the book? Sure. The History of We, written and illustrated by Nicholas Smith, tells the story of the modern human era.

[00:23:28] Set in Africa 230,000 years ago, Nicholas highlights the genius of early humans, their inventions and discoveries, and how we are all connected to the continent and one common ancestor. Here's Nicholas. The very, very beginning of the book starts with one line that just says, what does the beginning look like? And you see like this beautiful African valley.

[00:23:53] But then when you turn the page, it says, in this fertile African cradle, the birthplace of civilization is found. Here we dreamed and we spoke. We shared and we healed. We sang and danced and built and explored. We lived. Let us travel back to the start. So far back that all of our roots begin to tell the same story. The origin story of humankind. The history of we.

[00:24:22] The next page after that says, We walked this earth not 1,000 years ago, but 200 times more than that. We wove nouns and verbs into a web of language that connected us. With minds as intelligent as those born today, we sculpted words that made stories and shared stories that made our community. A brilliant blueprint for all human beings to come.

[00:24:45] And so you start to see our first ancestors, like the first modern humans doing things like starting to braid grasses that they would eventually turn into necklaces and things like that. And making art in the Blombos cave in South Africa. And using literally like using seashells to make necklaces.

[00:25:06] And so I think that's, for me, that's like just the beauty of scientific research is that they just literally dig up fossils from the ground and dig up artifacts and say, hey, this is what happened. It's not like a lot of speculation. Like, hey, we come from Africa. So, yeah, this can be kind of like that imagery to that moment in history.

[00:25:31] What was the most surprising or fun fact that you found in researching this book and then including that story in the pages? There's so many. I feel like that idea of the fact that we were really like mapping out the stars over 80,000 years ago in Africa is a beautiful thing.

[00:25:54] And the way that we started to explore and travel, like there's a page where you start to see the first explorers and their ships and their little like hollowed out trees that they turn into sailboats. And they started to go to Southeast Asia. They started to go to Australia.

[00:26:13] I feel like that's one of the coolest things was like the crazy long distances that they traveled, studied the current patterns of the ocean and figured out how they can get from A to B, like in super long distances. And it's just a beautiful thing to be able to visualize and show that we were doing all this stuff like for a long time.

[00:26:38] Like the whole planet was like literally like black people going everywhere. And then it talks about in the timeline at the end of the book. This was like 90,000 years ago that we stepped out of Africa really and started to explore. And 50,000 years ago, we ended up in Europe, you know, making great inventions. And 20,000 years ago, we ended up going into the Americas.

[00:27:00] But then it really wasn't until like 8,000, 10,000 years ago that skin started to adapt to colder climates, less sunny. Literally like 9,000 years ago, skin started to get pale and lighter. So you had like a whole 70, 80,000 years of just like black people everywhere, you know, doing amazing things. Then you eventually at the end of the book, you get to the we are a global population.

[00:27:28] We are literally one human race of people that just like got lighter in some parts of the world, you know, we're like all extended family. So that's kind of really the point of the whole book is that we're like way more connected in today's world. It seems like we can be so disconnected and split up and so different, but we're really, you know, one human race.

[00:27:51] Like there was a point in human history where we were a lot of different literal races and the homo sapiens became the one race. So it's us. Like there's no need to continue to split us up into races. Okay. So you went there. So I'm going to go there with you.

[00:28:10] We are in a moment in time in history where the concept and construct of race is being heavily reinforced to the benefit of one. And that would be the white race of people. Right. Especially in the United States.

[00:28:32] And that race as a concept and construct was created to always elevate white people over people with darker skin. And that has been held up over centuries via the church, via political systems, via the institution of slavery or Jim Crow or apartheid and so much more. Yeah.

[00:28:59] In creating the history of we and knowing of your background as an art to this and using your artwork to speak out on issues. Are you trying to intentionally do a narrative intervention with your artwork to say we're arguing over foolishness because we're all related and we should treat each other accordingly because there's only one race, the human race? Short answer, yes.

[00:29:26] Short answer, yes. Short answer, yes. I just had to get that on record. Yes, because, I mean, how many times have we said, like, race is a social construct? It was great. You know, we say that a lot. And I know it's hard. Obviously, in the black community, that's a very important thing to think about. But it's also in the black community. There's so much identity that we have connected to us as black people, you know.

[00:29:56] And it was very important to being able to survive in America and, you know, sticking together and all this stuff. And I totally get that. But like I said, facts are facts. It's the thing that I love about the scientific community is that they're not tied to a specific religious belief or any type of thing. They are literally just, like, pulling fossils from the ground and saying, this is it. This is us, you know.

[00:30:23] And there literally were other races. They were not even Homo sapiens, like, a long time ago. And eventually it just became us. And so take with that what you will. Like, it's just us now. And when you look at it in the scope of just modern humanity from 230,000 years ago to now, like I said, you see, like, 80% of that timeline is just black people inventing and being amazing on the earth.

[00:30:51] And then as we went around the earth, you know, our skin tone changed. When you think about it in that context, it's like such a ridiculous thing that race has become such a big deal and racism has become such a big issue because, like, it's really a tiny little factor in our whole timeline of humanity. So it's ridiculous that it has become, like, all of these issues that it has.

[00:31:18] And so if we can just kind of remember that we're literally all family, like I kind of allude to in the book, like, we're kind of like all extended cousins in a way. Hopefully that will help kind of remind us all that we need to stick closer together. But that's the goal, I guess. That's the wish.

[00:31:37] I want to go back to what you said about how important the construction of race is to identity within the black community in the United States, knowing that the boundary lines of race can shift, which I guess at this point we should really be calling caste. That's what Christ, as Isabel Wilkerson taught us, depending on where you are in the world. Like, how race was defined in Nazi Germany is not the same as race is defined in the United States.

[00:32:04] It's not the same as it was defined in apartheid era South Africa. It's not the way that it's defined in the different caste systems within India and things like that. But with that said, and knowing all of the systematic infrastructure that was built to uphold what we now know and call white supremacy, it's really about power.

[00:32:28] And so as you go around and you talk to students and you visit schools and you talk about all of your travels all around the world, how do you drill down to young minds that, one, we're all cousins and the only reason that people try to separate you and single you out for being different is because they want to have the power to rule over you?

[00:32:55] I feel like the beautiful thing about speaking to so many young kids about this topic is that the kids get it more than the adults. They understand the concept of equality and they see that there's so much inequality, racial inequality, gender inequality, all these things.

[00:33:15] They see that idyllic kind of concept of us all being the same or needing to get to the point where we're all treated equal. And so it's great to be able to break down the issues and then show how they can kind of create their own artifice posters and they can create the brokenness and show what's not working right.

[00:33:41] Or you can show the flip side of what would this world look like if it's fixed, you know, if it's working the right way. And so I just love that young kids, they get it and they're so eager to jump in and create artivism, create art that speaks to these really important topics of our day.

[00:34:00] And I love that as I'm going to be talking to young kids about the history of we and specifically for the black community, these young black kids who have a long history in their family of being marginalized and being told that they are less than or all this dehumanization. This book, in a way, can show not just black kids, but all kids of the world. This is your ancestry, too.

[00:34:24] This is everybody's ancestry and specifically for the black kids to show them the greatness of their lineage and the amazing and genius people that we all come from. And I think that will go a long ways to having that moment collectively where even in the schools where we can all take a break and just look at our history and see the beauty of it all.

[00:34:48] There's so much of the in recent history, the brokenness and the tragedy, but like there's so much beauty that we can look back and just reflect on. And so I'm excited to have these moments with everybody, but especially the school kids to talk to them about it. So we know what you want people to take from the book, but what kind of conversations do you hope are inspired amongst adults about the work?

[00:35:14] Like we were just talking about, there are a lot of tough conversations that we really do need to have about the construct of race and the idea of our human timeline, especially like the modern human timeline and really how we're all connected. And so I would love it if we could all have this talk about, you know, and it is connected to diversity, equity and inclusion.

[00:35:40] It is connected to a lot of what the politicians are fighting over, what should be put in schools and what is left out. And so I want the adults to be able to have this real conversation and really get a visual glimpse at what modern humanity is and what life was like really before, you know, the construct of race ever happened. Like, what was it like on the earth?

[00:36:07] And just seeing that, I think it can open people's eyes and get people to look at things a little bit differently. It's a very important conversation to have. And I'm excited that hopefully this book can help do that. All right. And so what are you working on next? My next book is early September. It's called A Change Is Gonna Come. It is by the legendary Sam Cooke.

[00:36:31] And so that is literally me taking the iconic song, A Change Is Gonna Come and visualizing it. And so it's like the book is the lyrics and I've created a story of like a civil rights era themed story that goes with the lyrics. So very excited about that. I look forward to seeing The River and the Little Tent. Yes. Right.

[00:36:58] All right. So I want to move to a speed around in the game before I let you go for what is still your morning. What is your favorite book? Frederick Douglass, his autobiography, that was an eye-opener for me to see the backstory of how he was able to escape from slavery. And literally like, you taught yourself how to read and write and now you're doing amazing things. Those things kind of blow my mind. Like, how did you go from this to now? You're like one of the most amazing speakers of all time.

[00:37:27] And you're explaining to people about what this life was like in American history. And those kind of like nuggets of American history I like to read about. Who is your favorite author? Frederick Joseph. I would say Frederick Joseph is a friend of mine. So I'm a little bit biased, but like his work is really amazing. Okay. Who is your favorite artist? I grew up loving traditional oil painters like Norman Rockwell. Norman Rockwell is a big inspiration.

[00:37:55] Kadir Nelson, who is also an oil painter. He does incredible, super, super realistic oil paintings that I love. All right. If money were no object, where would you go? What would you do and where would you live? Oh, I would probably just keep making art. And I would live. I would find some islands somewhere. I don't know.

[00:38:16] Maybe I'll move to like the Bahamas or something and find a nice little quiet, like shoreline little house or something. All right. Name three things on your bucket list. I want to see Central West Africa. That would be great. I'm going to win a big award for my picture books.

[00:38:41] And I don't know, maybe like create a studio or something like that, like where I can have my stories become like other things, like animations or something or something like that. I mean, you did used to work at Disney. I don't think it's that hard. Yeah, I think that could happen. I think that might be a phone call. Yeah. What brings you joy? Hanging out with kids and making art with students.

[00:39:09] And hanging out with my four-year-old son. What brings you peace? Making artivism, making tribute art for justice. And if you were a color, what color would you be? I'm going to go with like my favorite color, which is like a orange gold, goldy orange that I have like on my artivist book. Because like that kind of like golden orange drippy paint. That one.

[00:39:39] Okay. So our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wish you would have written. James? I mean, yeah. Like probably that. Like the twist on a classic. That kind of thing. Okay. So then name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? Probably like cast. Like Isabel Wilkerson's cast.

[00:40:06] And like make it so that everything, like the things work out. There are no systems of cast. The ideal conclusion to all of that would be. And then we realized that cast lines are stupid and we all became one, you know, like I said, one functioning human race of people. Basically the book you wrote with the history of we. Yeah. It was like that. All right. Yeah.

[00:40:35] And even in my book, I feel like, I feel like I wish, like I do have a visualization of like all of the like different groups of people that came from, you know, these traveling tribes. They are, you know, standing there peacefully, collectively. And maybe it'll be great if our current situation looked like that last page of the book. Like that would be great. I feel like there's an agrofuturism something in your future. Sure.

[00:41:03] That's also maybe a next kind of like a continuation to that. And, you know, cast and all these other things. It's like, so what is the future of like, you know, slingshot and go, you know, a thousand years or however in the future from looking at the past and what does it look like? Okay. And so my messy question, name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why?

[00:41:32] In general textbooks in America. I mean, I, so I, I grew up learning about like Davy Crockett in the Alamo and stuff like that in Texas. So like for me, I just, I'm always looking at like this, this whole, the whole Davy Crockett story is overrated. Like, why are we learning about this guy? And, and then it turns out that like, this didn't even really happen like that in, in the history books.

[00:42:00] Like, and it was all connected to, again, like racism and white supremacy and all this stuff. And so it's like, can we not teach anything about Davy Crockett anymore? And, and, but there's like in Texas, it's like, oh no, this is Texas history. So we have to stick to this. So anything connected to that and remember the Alamo and all that stuff. So American textbooks in Texas got it. Yes. Yeah.

[00:42:29] My final question for you today, when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write or draw or paint about you and the legacy that you've left behind? Wow. Um, yeah, I think maybe just like a mural of the human race that I was, that I had painted in a way, but like where I was trying to collectively do something to try to pull us together in a way.

[00:42:58] That would be cool. Big thank you to Nicholas Smith for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Nicholas on the socials at Nicholas underscore Smith on Instagram and threads. And Nicholas is spelled N-I-K-K-O-L-A-S. And make sure you check out The History of Weed. It's out now from Coquilla Books. You can get a copy of the book from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout.

[00:43:27] That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published, and that's B-L-K & Published. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Nicholas about how he lives up to the saying, a picture is worth a thousand words with his work.

[00:43:55] Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Christina Forrest, author of the novel The Love Lyric. What I'm always trying to say is that love is out there, and you should wait for the person who will love you the way you deserve to be loved, and who will respect you and accept you for who you are.

[00:44:21] And I think I took that even more seriously with Iris. I think that Iris deserves the happily ever after the most because of what she's been through. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[00:44:50] We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.