There's More to the Truth with Jill Tew

[00:00:00] It's really funny because I was promoting this book that was about taking it slow and not hustling, but also like scheduling TikToks and scheduling Instagram. You know what I mean? I was hustling about the like, don't hustle book. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:23] Today's guest is Jill Tew, author of the YA dystopian romance novel, The Dividing Sky. A book Jill says she hopes disrupts old norms for her young audience. I wanted to stop that cyclical pattern of thought for them early in like the teenage years as opposed to like at 30.

[00:00:46] And say, hey stop and think about it. Like maybe there's more to life than being productive. Maybe there are deeper purposes that we should be considering and seeking along the journey. Jill herself fell into the productivity trap in corporate America grinding away at a job that burned her out when her heart was always in writing.

[00:01:03] The two major life changes that brought her back to the page. Plus, how rejection of her first novel prepared her to write her second. And how the YA sci-fi space helped her redefine what's most valuable in life. That and more is next when Black & Published continues.

[00:01:50] When did you know that you were a writer? I knew that I wanted to tell stories from a young age, but I always assumed that writing was not in the cards for me. My parents did a very good job of making sure that I was going to be set up to provide for myself as an adult. And so they were like, you're going to get into a good school, you're going to get a good job, like that's what we're aiming for. And so I loved making up stories and thinking up little versions of like alternate realities of stories I loved in my head as a kid.

[00:02:17] But when it came time to choose a college and kind of graduate, I went the more practical route. So I went into a business school, I got a business degree, I went into a very corporate first set of jobs and quickly burned out of those jobs. And even as I was doing like PowerPoint slide decks in my apartment, I was thinking of short story ideas. And so like that writer instinct was always bubbling under the surface and I was ignoring it as much as I could.

[00:02:42] And then there was a moment about 10 years ago, I was about to burn out of a startup job and my friends wanted to go see a movie after work. And we went to the movies and it was Divergent, the like dystopian movie. And walking home from the theater, I was like, I remember this feeling. Like I remember how a good story can kind of light you up from the inside. I remember sci-fi movies I loved as a kid and shows I loved as a kid and how they make you think differently about society.

[00:03:09] And I want to do this. Like I don't want to lose this feeling again. It was like a spark came back that I had forgotten existed. And that was when I decided that I had to at least like as a hobby for myself, really take writing seriously. There's a lot of burnout in your own personal story. And then that is a theme in the novel, The Dividing Sky.

[00:03:29] And without getting too, too much into the book, when you were able to go see Divergent and become inspired by the kinds of stories that you wanted to tell, how did that make you feel even when you were burnt out from your own corporate work? In some ways, it replenished me. It was just this knowledge that like me at work was not the only version of me that existed, that I had this like storytelling fire that I wanted to nourish as much as I could.

[00:03:58] And I think it was kind of like a guiding light in a lot of ways to kind of pull me away and say, OK, like pay attention to like how you feel about yourself when you're in one setting versus another and go toward the light. Right. And so the more I was able to do that, you know, I mean, obviously it made it really clear for me, you know, where I was happiest and where I belonged. I still didn't see like a path to doing it sustainably, you know, just in terms of like financially.

[00:04:22] But it was a really clear guideline for me of like, OK, this is the version of you that you want to protect and nurture and help to grow. And, you know, the job maybe is in service of that, but that's not all that you are. Mm hmm. And so then what did it look like for you to begin to walk toward the starlight and what replenished you as far as being a creative and being a writer? I was taking a step back from like a full time position, but I had my oldest daughter and I was doing more like consulting type work.

[00:04:52] And when she was really young, I wasn't working at all. I was home with her. And you just have all this time, you know, your your body is busy or, you know, taking care of kids. You're chasing them all over the house. You're feeding them all that stuff. But your mind is really free to explore when you're home with kids. And so I was thinking a lot about stories, a lot about worlds I wanted to explore, ideas I wanted to explore or like snippets of dialogue I could imagine between two characters. And the second she would go down for her nap, I would like run to my computer and I'm going to get this down.

[00:05:21] And so that first story took me six years to write. And a lot of it was spent, you know, in a house with, you know, somebody who was like 18 months or younger between my two kids. Been there, done that. Yep. Yep. And so I had a lot of time to really just like think through stories and write books in my head, if nothing else. And then when my youngest was three or four months, I finally finished my very first novel. I finally just like got through it. Like as rough as the ending was, it was there. It was done. And that's the pandemic hit.

[00:05:51] And so all of my like freelance work that I've been doing kind of flexibly dried up as I became like 100% full-time caretaker for my kids because we really had no other option. And so that was the time when it was like, well, again, like I'm here with the kids, like we're doing crafts and stuff. But like I have an opportunity here, like a window to really give it my all when it comes to pursuing an agent, pursuing representation, pursuing publication.

[00:06:15] And so I put a lot of effort in that first year of the pandemic into swapping with critique partners and just really revising really aggressively. And then in fall 2021, I got an agent. And then once the pandemic kind of lifted and things began to go a little bit more back to normal, it was like, well, now I have an agent. Like now I really can pursue this as like a real career.

[00:06:35] And so it kind of already shifted everything to the point where it felt kind of silly to try to dip a toe back into that former career when kind of I had the green light in a lot of ways as far as like something going right and something really working to be able to pursue writing full-time. So I'm going to go out on a limb and make an assumption that because of your corporate career, you not only had enough savings, but again, I'm making the assumption. So correct me if I'm wrong. But there may have also been a partner to help you sustain yourself while you became a creative.

[00:07:04] Because those are the pieces that we don't always talk about. Oh, no. Yeah. My husband was instrumental in saying like, you got to go for it. Right. We'd already had the conversation about wanting to step back so that I could be more with my kids as opposed to like grinding at this like consulting gig that I didn't really feel was a good use of my time and like a good use of my kids' time just being with somebody else while I could have been caring for them, which again is another theme in the book.

[00:07:26] But I really wanted to preserve that part of myself, that like creative storytelling essence that I had discovered and kind of been given the freedom to discover during the pandemic. And so when it came to the choice of like, well, do I go back to work or do we try to make this work? I couldn't have done it without him. But there's just no question. And then the book that you got an agent for, was that The Dividing Sky or was that something completely different? It was something else. Yeah, it was an adult parallel universes story that I hope sees the light of day someday.

[00:07:54] We went on sub with it to editors and I know now why it didn't get picked up. Like I'm a stronger writer now than I was then. But I love that story. It was really fun. And it kind of began my exploration of using sci-fi to talk about our world here and now, right? Which is like all sci-fi is, right? But yeah, so while that book was out on sub, I began drafting the book that became The Dividing Sky.

[00:08:15] So then what did that, in essence, rejection of that first novel that you've written, that you've spent years pouring yourself into through a pandemic and new mommyhood and all of the things, how did that help you or did it help you when you returned to the page after it did not sell to draft The Dividing Sky? Yeah, so I think I was lucky in some ways. For one, I have a great agent who has a really strong handle on the market.

[00:08:42] And she warned me before we went out on sub that adult science fiction at the time was just a really hard sell. It's actually really funny because if I had to kind of like set the tone of what the landscape was like, at the time, this was like 2022. Adult sci-fi was either like pretty literary, like high-level cerebral stuff, or it was like zippy, like military sci-fi. And my book was very commercially voiced, but honestly, it's more like speculative romance, right? Like sci-fi romance.

[00:09:11] We know that there's a market for it. We can talk about it and know how to position it well. At the time, it was like, I'm not really sure what to do with this. And so I was getting a lot of feedback from editors that were passing saying like, this is really well written. Like, I can see why you represent her, like she's talented, but I don't know. Like, I can't sell this, right? And so it was like I was getting green lights. I was getting like, keep going, keep going, even as I was getting these rejections. And so I was still just level-headed about it.

[00:09:40] I knew that the odds of selling your first book at OnSub are pretty low. It mostly doesn't happen for authors. So I kind of, you know, disappointed, obviously, but had come to expect that. And luckily, you know, the notes we were getting from editors were complimentary and encouraging. So that kind of just went into my file and I was like, okay, well, you know, they say keep going, so I'm going to keep going. And I, you know, intentionally, when I began writing the next thing, I knew I wanted it to be YA. YA because the market was easier. The story I wanted to tell was already kind of like a YA voice anyway. It made a lot more sense.

[00:10:09] And I think this is the market timing and this nature of the story just connected. Do you know why the YA market is easier to break than maybe an adult market? Yeah, well, in sci-fi specifically, there are just so many more editors in YA. So in adult sci-fi, like you set up your list for going on sub and it's like 12 people in the world. Maybe 15 if you kind of go more expansive to different levels of publishers and imprints. But like keeping in mind, like you can only submit to one editor at every house.

[00:10:38] And so like there's really only a handful of adult sci-fi houses out there. And then to top it all off, the nature of sci-fi and fantasy being what they are with like longer page counts and word counts. You know, for every submission that those editors are getting and every book that they're working on with their actual author list, that's like 100,000, 150,000 words per book. And so the turnaround time is much, much longer for those at the adult level.

[00:11:02] And so in YA, we had probably three times the amount of editors on our initial list because there are just so many more editors and imprints in the YA space. And so we just had like many, many more options. And I think, too, genres are more fluid. You have more editors in YA that will take like contemporary or sci-fi or fantasy because they think those readers are so voracious across genre. So it's not quite as like siloed as it is in adult.

[00:11:25] You said earlier that after getting the rejections for that first novel that was for adults and you were going back to the page and started writing what became The Dividing Sky, you already had the voice in your head that was younger and toward a YA audience. What was it about telling this story through the perspective of teens and children, really, that interested you? To me, The Dividing Sky is interesting because we think of YA as like a coming of age genre, right? And I think that's true.

[00:11:55] I think at the beginning of this story, what's funny is that both Liv and Adrian like think they've got it all figured out. But they are like, you know, I've come into my world. I know where I belong. Usually you see YA as like younger protagonists who are trying to find their place. Liv and Adrian feel like they know their place. They just happen to both be wrong. So the story really is of like a rediscovering, you know, that like what you thought about the world and like society and your place in it is not exactly right or there's more to the truth, I guess.

[00:12:24] And that felt to me like a story that belongs with a younger audience. That was important, I think, especially for teens who might be getting one message like I did about the importance of productivity and getting good grades and getting into school and focusing your time on that. That then translates into doing everything you can for the company. And, you know, it never ends. I wanted to stop that cyclical pattern of thought for them early in like the teenage years as opposed to like at 30. And say, hey, stop and think about it.

[00:12:53] Like maybe there's more to life than being productive. Maybe there are deeper purposes that we should be considering and seeking along the journey. How long did it take you to write The Dividing Sky after you got all the no's for that first novel? Yeah. What's crazy is so my first book took me like six years to finish the first draft. You know, I had life-lifing in the background through all that, like day jobs and babies and moving houses and stuff. This book, The Dividing Sky, like once I really sat down to write it, I think it took me like three months. It really just flowed out of me.

[00:13:22] And I had been like percolating on the story for so long. I knew the different perspectives and how they were going to come together to tell the whole story. And in February to May, I think of 2022, it just kind of zipped right out. I think knowing that I could do it because I had finished one book before was a big, a huge factor in that. Just knowing that like I know how to tell a story from start to finish. I was learning how to write a book on that first book. And then by the second time, I was like, OK, look, I think I get what this could be. And so then what was that submission process the second time around?

[00:13:51] I was excited but apprehensive. I think I knew that it was easier from just like number of shots we had because there were just more editors. But YA sci-fi still really wasn't much of a thing at that point. And Alicia Dow, The Sound of Stars and The Kindred was probably the only author that I could think of. Certainly the only black YA sci-fi author at the time. And I was like, OK, like, is there a market for this? And, you know, I saw her out there. I saw a lot of black YA fantasy coming out.

[00:14:16] But I was not really sure that like just from a market kind of appetite perspective that there was going to be much of an interest in this. And then, too, I think we couldn't even call it a dystopian because dystopian had been like so saturated from like the divergent Hunger Games days. They were like, don't use that word. Like you can't call it that. So we were like, it's a near future sci-fi that's grounded on Earth.

[00:14:40] And so I was just kind of hoping that somebody would see the merit in it, either from the sci-fi perspective or the romance perspective. And luckily, Joy Revolution, which actually was my top choice for an editor, they were the first software we got. And that was like, I'm done. Like, I don't need to see anybody else. Because I, you know, really wanted to find a home with them because I really enjoyed kind of their ethos of telling stories with black and brown characters at the Forefoot Love Story specifically. Starring black and brown characters in kind of the full scope of our humanity.

[00:15:08] Just like being people, having adventures, saving the day or going to high school. And at the heart of what I wanted to do was like tell this big dystopian story that happened to have black and brown characters as like the main cast. Because I think so many dystopian books that we remember from like the heyday ask these huge questions about society. But like the characters don't reflect all of society. And so it's like, where are we? And so I wanted to write a book like that. And I'm glad that Joy Revolution saw that vision and picked it up.

[00:15:36] With everything that you learned and found and you say, you know, you went on submission, you got to Joy Revolution. We're like, OK, I'm done. What was it about that publishing house that not only before you got in, but then once you got into the editing and the making the book process that made you really comfortable in your decision? Because I don't think authors talk a lot about why they choose the editors or the houses that they choose other than the money. Yeah, that's right.

[00:16:06] And sometimes the money is all you can see from the outside, you know, to be fair. It's like working at a company. Like they can tell you a lot in like the initial interview pitch, but until you get in there, you don't always know. But I would say working with Joy Revolution has been great. I think so my editor, Bria, she admittedly, you know, to me, she was like, I don't read a lot of sci-fi. So this is kind of new for me. But she has great romance chops. And so we were able to introduce her to a whole new genre that I think she likes now.

[00:16:30] And she was able to help me refine the relationship at the center of the story and help it kind of reinforce that message of like the importance of connection and the importance of human emotion and love as like an antidote for a lot of what we're seeing in society. And so I think I was apprehensive, but I've been really pleasantly surprised by like how we work together and how receptive they are to embracing the genre and like not turning it into fantasy. Right. And like kind of like loving it for all of its grit and hard edges and all that stuff.

[00:16:58] I'm also a person that doesn't read a whole lot of sci-fi or fantasy or whatever the genres are called. But whenever I do, I'm like, this is so good. And I love how the authors are able to take the very present moment in political situations and cultural moments and then spin a world that resembles the present or doesn't.

[00:17:23] And infuse those current moments in this broader story about potions or productivity or a whole world with different gods and all these different things. So all that to say, can you read something for The Dividing Sky so that we can jump into the discussion about the book specifically with Adrian and Liv? The Dividing Sky by Jill II is a YA dystopian romance set in a future America.

[00:17:51] All of the major U.S. cities are collapsed into one territory called the Metro and people are separated by their jobs. Liv works in a lower class and Adrian is on the force for the governing body, Life Corps. A chance run-in in Liv's neighborhood lets them see who the other is beyond their stations in life.

[00:18:10] But when the force goes on a mission to stop a new drug from making workers rebellious, the chase puts Adrian and Liv on a collision course into each other and into discovering together how much better life could be. Here's Jill. Okay, so I think I would have to do a little bit of setup here. Liv's job is what's called an emo proxy in this world. She works for wealthy clients who are too busy working all day to live life for themselves.

[00:18:37] And so they hire people like her to do a bunch of different stuff. Liv's job specifically is to like read books and watch movies and have emotional experiences about what she goes through and transfer those memories of those emotional experiences to her clients. So they can keep working but also feel like they watched that movie or did that thing or got that rush of whatever. And so this is from the opening of the book.

[00:18:59] She is actually trying to use this like hover pack to like fly over like the buildings in her neighborhood to just kind of like whiz around and have these like death-defying loops and stuff. And it all kind of goes haywire basically is where she's at. But she's trying to like sell this memory and like hoping that she can sell this memory to her wealthy client, Mr. Preston. Over my shoulder, the drone's exhaust sputters. Uh, Celeste? I dip precipitously to the right.

[00:19:28] Below me, Celeste's eyes become saucers. Do something! I shout. I'm trying! She fumbles frantically with the remote, but it's not responding anymore. The towers blur as I tumble toward what I think is the perimeter. My eyes sting so much from the speeding air I can barely open them. I can't find the breath to scream as the ground lurches closer. I'm only 18. My life can't end like this, can it? Honestly, what a stupid fritzing way to die. I'm not sure if Celeste figures something out or maybe it's dumb luck,

[00:19:55] but the right-hand stabilizer suddenly fires just enough for me to reorient myself. I'm still falling, but now I can see my surroundings. Story after story of the towers whizzes by, each fire escape platform another number in the countdown to oblivion. Or maybe a lifeline. Against every survival instinct, I unclip one strap of my harness. Clutching the drone with one arm, I sling the loose strap and pray to whoever's listening that its clip will catch onto something. It works.

[00:20:24] With a thunk, the clip hooks around a railing, jerking me upward before it slips loose again. My dismount onto the landing below is not gentle, and the protruding rusty bar rips a wide gash into the sleeve of my uniform, but it's better than splattering onto the sidewalk. Dozens of feet above, Celeste peers over a roof ledge at me, her big eyes wide with panic. I wave to show her I'm alright, then bring my wrist to my mouth. Nero, end scrap. Reality sets in. I almost died just now.

[00:20:53] If that doesn't sell, I don't know what will. Thank you. Sure. So I think those last two lines are like really indicative of where we're going. Like, I almost died, and that better make me some more money. Uh-huh. Exactly. Exactly. So I'm going to take another assumption and go out on a limb here and say that

[00:21:17] this ponderance of what we do for money and how far we push ourselves came out of your very real experiences of burnout in the corporate world. Yes, you're not. Absolutely. Yes, 100%. I thought about this. Like, I was outsourcing parts of my life. I was outsourcing pet care and grocery delivery and laundry service, you know, all these things before I had kids. And I was using that outsourcing to kind of create gaps of time for myself, an extra hour

[00:21:46] here or 20 minutes there or whatever. But I was always filling a new gap with more work. So I was never like, oh, finally, I have an hour where I don't have to do laundry. I'm going to, like, go for a walk. I was just like, okay, I can get that email done to that spreadsheet finished, right? And so when I was looking for a new book idea, I was thinking about a world where technology advances to the point where we can outsource anything. And at what point, if ever, is someone going to stand up and say, yeah, actually, like, enough is enough? And that's where the idea for proxies and email proxies was born.

[00:22:13] And so I'm going to give a tiny spoiler in that when Liv goes to sell that memory to Mr. Preston, her client, he rejects her and says that you're doing way too much. And the memory that she does end up selling is something that she recorded on a whim, like, almost just for herself. And she's like, oh, let's try this. Like, she's desperate. She doesn't think she's got anything that will help. She's trying to figure out what he likes.

[00:22:41] And so when she shows him this clip, it's just like, I think it's her on the train, just enjoying the breeze and the wind. Just like the skyline. Yeah. Something really simple. And he's like, you know, that's it. Like, that's what I want to experience. It's just like the everyday, the simple things that he misses out on, not these, like, death-defying adventures like on a roller coaster, right? And so what is it about the simple moments of life that we don't take into account that

[00:23:09] you think capitalism is robbing us of? Because capitalism allows us to buy things, but it also takes to steal something from us as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's all tied up in this idea of value. And I think that the reason that we do this hustle, the reason that we are always thinking about the next productive thing we can do to save time or get an extra 20 minutes of work in or whatever, the next thing on the to-do list. I think the reason that we think that way is because capitalism has wired us in a lot of ways

[00:23:39] to think that our lives are valuable because of the value that we can create for somebody else. Right? So that's the most valuable thing about you is how much money you can make for somebody or even for yourself. But just, you know, it comes down to literal dollar figures. And I think, you know, in the message for the book and what Liv and Adrian eventually come to discover is actually, no, like actually life is inherently valuable. And when you think of it that way, and like people are inherently valuable, it changes how you think about how you spend your time. Right?

[00:24:08] Because if the people in your life are inherently valuable, you're going to slow down. You're going to slow down and cook a meal with them. You're going to slow down and go for a walk, even just by yourself to listen to the birds. You're going to just think differently about what value is and where you can find value in your life. And something that Liv has to kind of come to realize the hard way. But hopefully, you know, I've loved getting messages from readers who have high paced or fast paced corporate lifestyles right now.

[00:24:34] And they're like, I just stared at the wall after I finished this book. Right? And if I can bring somebody even like a few minutes of just like thinking differently about their day, I think that that's why I wrote the book. And so Liv is one character. You have the other main character, Adrian, who is basically a police officer. Mm-hmm. And the police force is super militarized like much of our current police forces are.

[00:25:03] But then they also have these robot officers who do like superhuman things. And they are trying to maintain order in this new version of the United States where all the big cities are kind of like just one area. And he runs into Liv by mistake and first gets to know her. And then the cat and mouse chase kind of begins with them.

[00:25:31] And also like him being a police officer also sets up like the class issues in the novel where, you know, it's very much you have the proletariat and the bougie class. And then the police officers are kind of in the middle. Why make the love interest so opposite of who she is class-wise and values-wise? From a romance perspective, at the core, there's a lot going on. But at the core, this is a love story.

[00:26:00] Some of my favorite love stories are the ones where you watch the characters slowly and methodically break their own rules for somebody. Just like one by one. Like every rule you thought you had about how you interact in the world, how you think about yourself, the way you compose yourself is just like unraveled. And so I really wanted to start off with a character that by nature of his job and who he is and how he was raised by the police force, honestly, from the age of like three, he has

[00:26:28] very strict guidelines for how the world works, how he's supposed to work in it, how everyone should relate to him and his job to protect everybody. And that's just how he thinks about it. To me, some of the most satisfying love arcs are the ones where you watch the person who's robotic in that way become softer, become more human, find gray areas and areas where the lines are a little bit blurred. I just find that really entertaining from like a romance perspective. And I love also the idea of like love being like a transformative and like almost redemptive power in love stories.

[00:26:57] And so like Adrian does start off as like the oppressive force. He's not just like a bad guy. Like he is their brute strength. Like and even though he's a rookie, right, isn't done much, but like he's ready to do the most. And I wanted to show how like somebody's love could like pull him out of that and snap him out of it and realize like, actually, wait, I'm ready to question everything and just really expand my horizons because I found this thing that I didn't think was going to happen ever in this like extremely surprising place.

[00:27:25] Not only are they brute strength, but they're also flooding the neighborhood where Liv lives and she's considered a lower and they live in these places called the towers, which reminds me of the projects. But they're flooding the projects with drugs. Yep. Yep. They're flooding everywhere with drugs. Yeah. There is like a drug called mean in the book and it's like this injectable thing. It's dopamine, right? It's the dopamine that we get scrolling TikTok, looking at Instagram reels.

[00:27:50] It is meant to distract and to dull the senses and do a sense of complacency so that people can just keep going to work and living monotonous lives where they make money for somebody else. That metaphor is intentional. And so, you know, the company LifeCorp keeps this chemical, this drug flowing everywhere, but especially in the towers because the people that are going to the factories and the warehouses need it in order to put in another day's work.

[00:28:15] And so not only do they keep the drug flowing, but then part of the plot becomes that a new drug is discovered in some of the employees of the lowers who live in the towers that instead of making them more compliant and complacent to do their jobs and more productive, it makes them more resistant and rebellious. And so they're trying to find the source of that drug. And then they learn that the source of that drug is live.

[00:28:44] And what she's doing is using her job. So she's selling memories on the side. Yeah, exactly. She's selling memories on the side, right? And letting the people get high off her own supply. But she's using the memories and the feeling that she collects as a weapon.

[00:29:04] Why was it important for you to weaponize those good things when we think that productivity is the good thing? I think if you look at it from LifeCorp's perspective, it is a threat. It is dangerous to the social order that they've created where people really have bought into this idea of productivity. Like they've created this productivity score that you don't want to ever drop. And it's actually directly tied to people's rights in the book, right?

[00:29:33] You're more likely to get arrested or evade arrest by the police if you're too productive to lose, right? And so people really buy into this and then really strive to keep their scores high. But if there's something that makes you feel like, wait a second, none of this actually matters, that's a huge threat. And so I really wanted Liv not only to have the answer in terms of the themes of the book, but if she really believes that or begins to show people that there's a different way

[00:30:01] to live, like of course LifeCorp's going to come down hard on that because it will destroy everything. But not only does she realize that there's a different way to live, there are other people living different lives just outside the boundary of this new world. And so once she's been chased because the force is after her, she tries to go to the outer land for two reasons. Like, yes, she's being chased.

[00:30:25] But then she also goes because Mr. Preston, her client, wants to see the stars and there's only one place that he wants to see them from. And again, she's now risking her life to make this money to try to do something good for her family that she's cobbled together. And in the end, she ends up coming into contact with the people who live in the outer lands who know that there is another way of life.

[00:30:49] Like, why was it that outside nature or that outside element that you wanted to bring in to show that, no, no, no, this is not normal? The world of the metro, that big city where everybody lives, is clearly visualized in the book. Like, I really wanted to show what the other way looks like, right? Like, it's not just enough to say, oh, well, what if we slow down? I wanted to show a version of society where they do exactly that.

[00:31:14] And so, yeah, the haven that Liv discovers outside of the metro's borders is slower, right? It's more agrarian. There's more culture. Like, they have different clothing styles. They listen to music. They eat, like, real food instead of the Vita bars that everybody eats in the metro just for ease of time and convenience. And I just, I wanted to be able to visualize that. Okay, well, if we're moving towards something else and if the people in the book are supposed

[00:31:41] to, like, strive for a different way of living, like, let's put a blueprint of sorts in front of them and have Adrian and Liv have something to point to, somewhere to literally escape to at the end when they're running away. And I think just, too, like, it helped me as an author just to think about, like, okay, well, what am I saying? Like, what do I think it should look like, you know? And so I had to really push myself to think about, you know, elements of the society that I wanted to highlight and showcase as, like, beautiful things that we should be trying to carve out more time for in our own lives.

[00:32:11] Yes, and I read this book while I was on vacation. And I feel like oftentimes we think of vacation as the ideal, but we come right back to the grind. And so we take a break. So how do we make, in your opinion, do people make vacation the norm, even if you haven't left your home or your neighborhood or the country?

[00:32:38] It's nothing more than, like, a mindset shift, right? I think the grind is inside of you. We have jobs and bosses and stuff that are pushing us to do stuff. But I think, honestly, like, the grind and the hustle is in your mind. And the first place to quiet it is there. And I think that different actions and things, like, flow from that. But, like, you know, you got to eat. Like, everybody needs a job to survive. But, like, I think it's how you approach it. And if you think about it as, like, something that you do in order to preserve the quieter

[00:33:08] moments of your life, even if it's, like, five minutes walking back from the bus stop, like, whatever it is, it's about your orientation towards those simple pleasures that really literally are everywhere and are free. Are you looking for those things or are you letting yourself get seduced? And I'm absolutely guilty of this, too, by the hustle culture and the allure of the gold star for being productive. So there's a line. I don't remember who says it, but it says, life there wasn't glamorous and flashy, but

[00:33:35] it wasn't this, constantly hustling and striving for even an ounce of stability. Both options seemed impossible. Do you think there is a balance between the striving and the bliss? I think so. And I think you can find it, again, if you kind of just reorient your inner lens. I think that that's really what it comes down to. Like, we're in this system. There's not a whole lot we can do, especially when we, like, need money to survive, to truly revolt the way that Liv and Adrienne do.

[00:34:02] But I think it really starts simply, it's a mindset shift. How has this book, writing it, publishing it, talking about it, changed your own mindset? A lot. I write books to kind of figure out where I stand on things. And so, like, I find a lot of times that I end up writing characters with different views that represent, like, different parts of my own thinking about something, right? A character like Silas, right? Who represents a lot of the messages that I got as a kid raised by boomer parents who

[00:34:31] were very much like, we came to this country so that you could have a good life and get a good job and, like, you are the American dream, et cetera, et cetera. Silas is kind of like Liv's father figure in the book. And he's very much about, like, climbing that ladder. And it's out of love. He cares. Like, a lot of well-intentioned parents care. And I think other characters are more like, well, what are we doing this for, right? Out in the Outerlands, like, they have different perspectives on what life is for and what human life is worth, really. And so to have those two perspectives kind of duking it out for dominance in Liv's mind,

[00:34:59] I think, is a reflection of, like, where I was just mentally kind of thinking through this stuff. And so, yeah, so I think, like, having the book finished and having it end the way it ends is, like, a physical manifestation of, like, where I landed on this and helps me say this is where I'm at. And I think, you know, I still, it's funny now because writing the book and having to publish the book in publishing, which is a capitalistic industry, like, all of them, it's really funny

[00:35:25] because I was promoting this book that was about taking it slow and not hustling, but also, like, scheduling TikToks and, like, scheduling instruments. You know what I mean? Like, I was hustling about the, like, Don't Hustle book. And so I really had to, like, pull it back and be like, okay, like, are we, like, walking the walk? Like, what are we doing? Because, like I said, like, it's all so seductive. And, like, there is no, like, final, like, vanquishing of it, right? Like, it's always going to pull you back.

[00:35:51] And, like, you have good moments and bad moments and seasons where it's, like, all consuming and seasons where you can pump the brakes a little bit. Like, I've been really intentional. Like, I was blessed enough to get some really great book contracts, like, early in my career to the point where I'm going to have four books out in two years, which is great and way too much. So, like, this year is the first year where I'm, like, don't have a ton of deadlines. I was on, like, triple deadline multiple times last year, which was way too much. And then also promoting a book that was out.

[00:36:20] So this year, I'm, like, winding down some of those books. They're going to go into, like, print. And then, you know, I don't have to be drafting or revising them as much. And I'm going to sell something, you know, hopefully this year, too. But, like, I'm going to just be really intentional about, like, fewer things, like, more room for life. Yeah. So you mentioned you're going to have, like, four books out in two years. What's next? Yeah. So the very next thing is really fun. It's a middle grade book out with Disney Hyperion. They have a new imprint called Freedom Fire, which is led by Kwame Mbalia, who wrote this

[00:36:50] great middle grade series starring a black boy. It's just in Strong's series. He's got three books in that series. But he founded this imprint at Disney that's all about black resilience, black joy, and black storytelling. And so my book is, like, the fourth book that they're putting out. And it's called Kaya Morgan's Crowning Achievement. And it's about a 12-year-old black girl growing up in suburban Atlanta who is competing to become the first black queen of her local Renaissance Fairs summer camp. So it's very cute.

[00:37:18] It's about this girl who, like, loves, like, the nerdy stuff and the Renaissance Fairs stuff. And it's a space that wasn't built with her in mind, you know? But she kind of learns to take up space in her own way there. And it's just really magical. It's my, like, 12-year-old self, like, love letter, basically. So do you find yourself being more comfortable writing in the YA middle grade kids' spaces? I like it all. What I'm working on right now is an adult dystopian romance. And I just find, you know, like, I've lived through all those phases of life, right? I've been a 12-year-old.

[00:37:48] I've been a 19-year-old. I've been a 30-year-old plus. I think I have all those people in me still, you know? I have all those experiences in me. And I have all those voices in me. And so I love kind of hopping around and just figuring out what the right voice is for the story. And where it fits on the shelf is kind of, you know, my agent's problem. Agent and editor, yes. All right. So I want to move to a speed round and a game before I let you go for what's becoming The Afternoon.

[00:38:17] What is your favorite book? The Illuminae Files by Amy Kaufman and Jay Kristoff. Who is your favorite author? Tracy Dion, author of the Legendborn series. And she's got her third book coming out. What is your favorite TV show? My favorite thing right now is, like, documentaries about, like, influencers. One is called An Update on Our Family. And I'm watching it on Max.

[00:38:41] But it's about this, like, family vlogger culture and how there was, like, pressure to grow their families and, like, let viewers into, like, every aspect of their lives and all this stuff. And how the product promotion deals and all the money, like, incentivized, like, having more kids or, like, adopting kids. Because, like, those are the things that got clicks and eyeballs and advertising dollars. So, yeah, it's wild. It is truly wild. And I think that fascinates me. It's, like, that intersection of, like, society and technology that I love.

[00:39:08] That is just, like, voyeurism and how that ties into capitalism. Like, it's everything that I love. It's, like, how does technology, like, distort our sense of, like, appropriate family dynamics? And, yeah. It's taking productivity to a whole new level. Yeah, literally reproductivity. Right. What did you think is the best book-to-movie or book-to-series adaptation? Ooh. I loved To All the Boys I've Loved Before. That was a great one. Two of my, like, recommended viewing.

[00:39:37] One is the 2019 Little Women. I love that adaptation. And then also, of course, The Hunger Games. I think that that was one of the best adaptations just in terms of staying true to the story. But also just, like, the cinematic, like, volume, what they did and what they changed and why. Those movies are just, like, classic and eternal to me. If money were no object, where would you go, what would you do, and where would you live? I just read this book called The Light Eaters about plants and how they have intelligence,

[00:40:05] like, full awareness of what's going on in their surroundings and, like, what plants are next to them. And the author spent some time in the Amazon, different rainforests in South America. And I was like, I want to go there and, like, see the plants. And so I think that I do, like, a little research trip down to the Amazon to see some cool plants. What would I do? I mean, I'm probably doing it. I think I probably, I maybe would, like, take my kids more places, like, just travel with them more. And maybe if I didn't have to worry about keeping my house clean, maybe we'd have an RV or something. We'd, like, travel.

[00:40:33] Just kind of go around and not worry about keeping the lights on here. Where would I live? Yeah, I think maybe, like, we would just travel for a little bit and be itinerants just kind of hopping around. Yeah, exactly. Just kind of show them the world. Name three things on your bucket list. I would love some sort of adaptation, like, some sort of, like, film or TV adaptation. That'd be amazing. I actually really wanted to see one of my books become, like, a video game one day. Like, that'd be really cool. That would be, like, a dream that, yeah.

[00:41:03] And my other bucket list, actually, is to have somebody do cosplay of my characters. That's what I want to see. Yeah. So then let's do a little bit of manifesting. If The Divide in the Sky got the film treatment, who would you want to play, Adrienne and Liv? For Adrienne, one might have aged out of this category because I think he's a little bit older for the role now. But Alfred Enoch, who was on How to Get Away with Murder, and he was in, like, the Harry Potter series. And he was in the Divide list. He played Wes on How to Get Away with Murder? Yeah, uh-huh. Okay.

[00:41:33] So him or Keith Powers, who's younger. And then I think for Liv, she's older too, but she plays younger roles. And she has, like, a younger face. Like, maybe, like, Ryan Destiny? I could see that working. And, like, we could, like, age him up a little bit. It'd be okay. But, yeah, I think that would be... My first thought was Coco Jones, so... I think Coco would also be, like, an excellent choice. They're both so fantastic and beautiful. All right. So you have a line in the book that says, I believe this is the leader of the Haven. I forget her name.

[00:42:01] But she says, you know, joy isn't just about entertainment. It's how we survive. So with that in mind, what brings you joy? Oh, absolutely. My kids. Like, that's, like, the number one thing is just, like, my youngest especially. Like, her laugh, I would, like, bottle it and, like, keep it in my pocket forever. Like, she has, like, the most infectious laugh. So, yeah, without question, those two. I think just, like, sunny days and good food on, like, an outdoor patio. Always good.

[00:42:31] And what brings you peace? Last year was not a very peaceful year for me. I think I had just a lot of anticipation of the book coming out and, like, how it was going to land. And then I spent a lot of time just, like, worrying about, like, how it was doing relative to other books and if it was, like, big enough and doing well enough and stuff. And I think I decided, after reaching the point where I could not say that anymore, that the actual way to win in publishing is, like, good or bad, whatever happens.

[00:42:59] Like, I can go to bed that night. Like, cool. Like, cool with it. And so, like, that is my focus for this year and, like, that's what I'm working on as far as, like, bringing peace is just not letting the ebbs and flows of publishing, like, affect who I am as a person too much one way or the other. Like, the wins, the losses, like, whatever. Keeping that sense of self centered on something bigger. I love that. So, our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Okay.

[00:43:28] And so, name one book that you wish you would have written. Ooh. Ooh, ooh, ooh. I'll go with Ender's Game. I really want to do a Black Girl Ender's Game. That's, like, on my, like, my dream list of projects. I'm here for that retelling. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? I think I could say, like, Divergent, right? Because, like, if you've read the series, like, you know that, like, the ending of that series had a lot of people frustrated.

[00:43:54] But as an author now, like, looking at, like, the whole arc, I can say, like, I get it. Like, she's abnegation. Like, that's the whole thing. All right. And so, now, name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why you can do Dead People. Okay. That's helpful. You know, I was like, oh, no. You know, I'm not going to say that this is, like, overrated, but I will say it's overtaught. Only because, so the book I'm going to say is, like, fourth wing.

[00:44:23] The only reason I'm going to say this is because there are so many other dragon books out there that I think we should also be focusing on. Specifically by people of color. So, two I can think of off the top of my head are So Let Them Burn by Camilla Cole. And that duology, the second one, is coming out. Yeah, fantastic fantasy retelling in, like, a fantasy Jamaica. Very, very cool book. The second one is Shape of Dragon's Breath by Monocle Blackgoose. She's an indigenous author. Those two are also worth taking up space and, like, worth talking about.

[00:44:51] I think we just have more room for dragon books beyond just the one that everybody is talking about. All right. And so my final question for you today, when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you've left behind? Oh, man, that's powerful. Being an author is interesting because you really, at a certain point, once you have your foot in the door, you could write anything. Like, you could pursue any genre, any trend, like, whatever you think is selling. You could do really anything.

[00:45:21] And I've had to be really intentional over the past year about figuring out what my brand is and why am I doing this? Like, what am I here? What stories am I here to tell? Right now, the guiding light I have for myself is that I'm writing Black girls into new worlds, whether that's, like, sci-fi, fantasy, like, literal, like, speculative worlds, or it's the Renaissance Fair or Space Camp, places that you don't often see Black girls. Like, I really want to expand horizons for other people to see what we're capable of and where we belong, that we belong in any of these spaces, right?

[00:45:51] And just kind of not box us, not put us into a corner. And so when I think about, you know, what I want to leave behind, hopefully, is just this legacy of Black girls and women in these spaces that show us doing the things that we do, that we already know that we do. But helping people see us as heroes, see us as the vanquishers that take on the oppressive class or the shining star at the Renaissance Festival or whatever it may be, or the brainiac at Space Camp, right?

[00:46:18] Like, I want them to see us in all those different shades and colors and backgrounds and characters. And so I want to kind of just add to the scope of what it is a Black main character in a book can and cannot do. Because unfortunately, like, we're still too limited in what's on the shelf. Big thank you to Jill Tu for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Jill on the socials at j2writes on Instagram. And Tu is spelled T-E-W.

[00:46:45] And make sure you check out The Dividing Sky, out now from Joy Revolution. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you liked this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published, and that's B-L-K-& Published.

[00:47:15] There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Jill about her model for 2025 after last year was spent meeting multiple deadlines. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Jacqueline Crooks, author of the novel Fire Rush. I never, ever felt that Fire Rush was going to be published by a large publisher. I thought maybe a tiny publisher would have it and publish it and nothing would happen.

[00:47:45] But I was never going to change what I wanted to write. I'm never going to write for the marketplace. I will always write about the things that drive me. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young.

[00:48:12] Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.