The Psychology of Romance with Ashley Jordan

[00:00:00] What's good, family? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, the host of Black & Published podcast and the author of the novel The Seven Daughters of Dupree. This historical fiction novel is about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations and is told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. I have an excerpt from the novel for you today. The audiobook is narrated by Bonnie Turpin and this scene you're about to listen to is from the prologue.

[00:00:30] Prologue. They cut off her head because she ran. But who could know? Certainly not Tati. She was looking for her daddy. Her mama Nadia wouldn't tell her. Gladys, her Mimi, wouldn't tell her either.

[00:00:48] So she searched for him. She didn't know to search for anyone else. It wasn't like there was a burial or body, no coffin, no cemetery. But in a way, she found her. In fact, she found them all, including her daddy.

[00:01:12] In the kitchen table whisperings and the basement murmurings where her mother used a hot comb to press out her hair every Saturday night. I hope you enjoyed that scene from The Seven Daughters of Dupree, narrated by Bonnie Turpin. The novel is available everywhere books are sold and in whatever format you prefer. Hardcover, ebook, audiobook, and large print.

[00:01:39] So, if you can, please consider getting a copy of The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. Now, let's get to the episode. I didn't have enough confidence, I guess, in my manuscript for that to feel right. So, when people were saying that, I'm like, hmm, okay, I'm going to put this, you know, I'm making this note that you think it's ready. I'm not sure it is. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[00:02:06] Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Ashley Jordan, author of the romance novel, Once Upon a Time in Dollywood. A story where Eve, a millennial woman, gets a surprising second shot at love on an impromptu trip she took to escape her life. She was going there for penance. It was like a punishment for her in a way. Like, you know, she's Catholic, so. Very self-flagellation has to print The Scarlet Letter.

[00:02:34] Exactly. So, yeah, she went there as sort of punishment to herself, despite her setting this boundary with her fiancé and her parents. She's going there. It's supposed to be a retreat in a way, but also, I think, in the back of her mind, this is the scene of the crime. Once Upon a Time in Dollywood is one of two projects Ashley took up during the pandemic. The other was getting another degree, this time in psychology. How she says going back to school and writing her debut novel worked hand and glove together to finish both.

[00:03:05] Plus, the zombie apocalypse television show that sparked Ashley's writing career and this novel. And, in writing a novel about grief and love and loss, how Ashley chose to define the difference between happiness and joy. With a little help from Kirk Franklin. That and more is next when Black & Published continues.

[00:03:39] Ashley, when did you know that you were a writer? I'm still not sure, but I think it was, you know, I started writing fan fiction and, you know, I got a lot of lovely feedback from a lot of lovely women in our fandom. But I think it was when I got a direct message from a culture writer at BuzzFeed who said she'd read my latest story. And she did an interview with me about it and she hoped that I would be published. And I think that was the first time I said, oh, maybe this is my calling. What were you writing fan fiction about? The Walking Dead.

[00:04:08] Okay, okay, okay. So, what drove you to do that from watching the show? Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't like the show at first. I was like, these people are getting on my nerves. I was ready to stop. And then Danaya Guerrero walked on the screen and I was like, oh, I am locked in now. That just suddenly became my favorite character. And yeah, she just, like everything about her and so much of her reminded her of me. And just, like the character was, you know, a little bit like antisocial. She didn't want to be bothered.

[00:04:37] She was, and even, you know, her features, it was really nice to see that on a screen like that. And so, she was the reason that I locked in. And then her relationship with the main character, Rick, and his son was really, it just felt really organic and well done and healthy. And it's just something about it called to me. And so, I started writing about them like 10 years ago. Okay. So, 10 years ago, you started writing fan fiction. You got a call from the BuzzFeed editor. And they hope you publish more. Where did this journey take you to wanting to like write a novel? Yeah.

[00:05:07] So, the reason the BuzzFeed editor reached out is because I actually wrote a story using Beyonce's Lemonade. And it was, our fandom was not that big, but it was a big story within the fandom. And that's why she reached out. And something about her saying, you know, it was one of the best books I read all year. And it wasn't a book. You know, that was really, you know, it gave me, it was such a confidence boost. And I didn't do anything immediately. It was during the pandemic that I finally decided to give this a try. I had written several stories at that point, one of which was actually this book.

[00:05:36] It was originally called Tennessee. And it was very, very long. It was like 250,000 words. But something about it, something about the themes, you know, that we were experiencing during the pandemic, thinking about healing and grief and all those things, it just felt like a good time to see if there was something I could do with that. I did two things during the pandemic. I went back to school and I wrote this book. And both of them, I think, led me here because one sort of fed the other. And that, you know, it forced me to focus. And when I was in a space where I didn't know how to focus, my attention span was getting really bad, I noticed.

[00:06:06] And so I think both of those things forced me to sit down and focus on what my next chapter was in life. And I think a lot of people had that experience in the pandemic. So that was the main thing. And I was able to pull out the parts that I really loved about the original story, which was, again, about grief and therapy especially and, you know, second chances, I think. And that's what led me to this book. What did you go back to school for? I went originally because I was bored. And so I did women's studies.

[00:06:35] But then I realized I've worked in public health a long time, but as like an editor and I didn't have a science degree. So I said, let me see if I can also get a science degree. So I chose psychology. I felt like it tied well into my day job. And if I wanted to do writing, yes. You went back to school for psychology while writing a novel about a playwright in New York. Yes. Make it make sense. So originally she was not a playwright. She was actually a scientist in like the fan fiction version.

[00:07:04] I made her a playwright because of Danai Gurira, who is also a playwright. And I just, that felt like a fitting tribute to her who inspired my writing journey. So that's how we landed there. Okay. And you talk about this novel in its first iteration was Tennessee at 250,000 words. How did you pare it back to get what would become Once Upon a Time in Dollywood? There was a lot going on in the original story. I did too much with it. And that's what fan fiction is great for because it allows you to play with your voice and structure

[00:07:33] and all those different things. So it wasn't that hard to just pick out the parts that were important. Like for some reason in the original story, I had broken up the friendship between the Eve and Maya character. I didn't need to do that. So that was a big part of it that I could take out. And there was a lot more back and forth between the two main characters that wasn't actually necessary either. So yeah, once I figured out like how to make this more linear story that is not, I mean, you obviously have like the third act breakup that happens in every romance, but I think

[00:08:01] I did that like four times in the original book. So yeah, I was able to take all that out and still have the main bones of the story. How did you learn to do that? A lot of trial and error. I, you know, like I said, 2020 was the first time that I really tried to write the book and I queried it in 2020. And that was a time, luckily or unluckily, when publishing was having this reckoning with how it treated diverse voices, especially Black voices. And so at the time I got a lot of really good feedback about what wasn't working and what

[00:08:30] was working. I got an offer, which told me that I was doing something right, but it didn't feel like the right offer. So I didn't accept it. And, you know, I went back and revised several different times and including getting into the fellowship with Reese's book club. I revised with Jasmine Guillory and she was telling me like, this is a very, very good story, but you're still doing too much. So, you know, it was just like taking feedback from every corner I could get it and, you know, turning it into this book that it is today. Talk more about being a Reese's lit up fellow.

[00:09:00] What did that mean to you? And what was the program like? The reason I applied is because one of the things they promised is like, they'll help you market the book if ever you managed to sell it. So that was like the main selling point for me. I didn't realize when I applied that it was going to be so much more than that. Like I knew there was a mentorship, of course, but I didn't know what, I'd never really had a mentor before. So I don't know what they do, how much interaction there would be. And also I didn't expect that there to be like this profound sisterhood that came out of it.

[00:09:27] You know, they pick five authors who have not been published yet, but it's also full of other authors who have been published, including your mentors. But also you go to this retreat, we went to Nashville, which was really wonderful. And it was all these women teaching us about, you know, how to navigate the publishing industry, what to expect, what to do once you do get that book deal, God willing, you get the book deal and all kinds of advice. I remember when I was querying and talking to agents and, you know, fielding offers, I reached out to one of the mentors from Lit Up and she was like, you're good.

[00:09:55] You know, you will have anybody you choose will be good. But also you mentioned this agent that she wanted at the retreat. Have you spoken to her? I'm like, no, she hasn't reached out to me yet. And next thing I know, she got in touch with her and she reached out to me. So those kinds of connections I really did not expect, but they have made this journey like you can't do this journey without having people who are in the industry who really understand it. Because when you talk to your family, they're like, okay, what are you talking about?

[00:10:20] So those people I think are really necessary in order to navigate this and not feel so alone. And, you know, luckily everybody in my cohort, the four other women with me, we all got book deals and we all get to celebrate together. And it's really just become this beautiful friendship that I really did not realize that would come out of this. Your book is not just a Lit Up Fellow, but it was also chosen as a Reese's Book Club pick. Yes? It was. Yeah. Did not see that coming either. Okay.

[00:10:46] So then let's talk about the journey from being just a fellow to like, you know, querying, getting the agent, getting the deal, and then getting one of the major book clubs to support your work. Like I said, the reason I applied to Lit Up was just thinking that Reese's Book Club would help promote, which they, you know, they do do for all of the fellows. And yeah, querying, because I queried two previous times before that. It went okay the first time. When it was 250,000 words? No, no, no, no, no.

[00:11:12] It was, no, in 2020, after I'd pared it down, I think it was probably, I think under a hundred thousand words at that point. And like I said, it went okay. Like I got feedback. I got an offer. Didn't take it. I revised and queried again in 2021. It did not go as well. Black voices did not matter as much by then. So yeah, I was getting frustrated. Seriously. I was like, okay, I don't know what's wrong with this book, but I'm going to pull it back again, revise again.

[00:11:38] And I actually applied for Lit Up in 2021 and I didn't get in. And I was ready to give up on the book because I was like, it's really not going the way I hoped. And maybe it's not ready. Maybe it's not the time or whatever. And then Lit Up sent an email in 2022. They said, hey, we saw you applied last year. Feel free to apply again. And since I had revised the book, I said, sure, take it. I'm not going to get in, but go ahead and have this, whatever this mess is. And then, yeah, I got in. And it's so funny because they sent an email like late December of 2022 saying, hey, you're in the top 10. Congrats.

[00:12:08] We'll get back to you soon to let you know if you're in the top five. And I was very happy about that. That's something you can like put on your resume. And then for some reason, I just woke up one morning. It was literally Friday the 13th, January 13th. And I was like, I feel like I'm going to get in Lit Up today. And I did. Okay. Like manifesting. Yeah. So yeah. Querying after that a lot easier. I can imagine. But wait, I want to pause you because you said you cleared in 2020. You got an offer and you didn't take it. Yeah.

[00:12:38] Make that make sense because there are so many people that just want an offer. What was it that made you say, you know what, even though they're offering me representation, this is not right. What was that like? Yeah. And it was hard, but I felt like because of the other feedback I was getting, I didn't feel like the book was ready. And I appreciated really that this agent saw potential in me. And that was a big reason I kept going. But I just didn't feel like based on the deals they had already made and just kind of where

[00:13:05] they were, it didn't feel like they could get me where I wanted to be, which was, I honestly wanted to be at Berkeley. I would have loved to be a Reese's Book Club pick. And I didn't foresee that that agent would be able to get me there. I haven't followed like her career. So it's entirely possible. Like if I had queried in 2023, she would have been that person. But in 2020, it just didn't feel right. So I had to really trust my gut. Wow. Wow. That says a lot for a first time author to hear you say that you got close and then you were the one who walked away.

[00:13:35] Takes courage and bravery, but it also goes to show where you can go when you don't take the first offer that's put in front of you. Yeah. And so after getting into Lit Up and then querying in 2023 and getting your agent, what was your publishing process like? I got my agent August 2023 and we edited a little bit. It's so funny because it was another situation where discernment matters. I was talking to a lot of different agents who were like, I think the book's ready to go out on sub tomorrow. Like you're good.

[00:14:03] And I really, really loved hearing that. But I'm also like, I didn't have enough confidence, I guess, in my manuscript for that to feel right. So when people were saying that, I'm like, okay, I'm going to put this, you know, I'm making this note that you think it's ready. I'm not sure it is. And when I met with this agent who had already been on my list of like dream agents because of the deals she'd made and she's just kind of a bigger name in romance. She said, you know, I don't think it's ready quite yet. And I'm like, oh, checkbox. And so, you know, she had a few edits, nothing major, but a few things that she wanted to change.

[00:14:33] And that really made me feel even more confident in my want for her specifically. And so we edited for like maybe two months and went on sub right at the beginning of November to different publishers. We went pretty wide, but I knew who I wanted, which was Essie Soka at Berkeley. I wanted Berkeley for several reasons and I definitely would have wanted a black editor if I could get one. And, you know, those are few and far between. So she was really high on my list. And so, yeah, we went on sub and got feedback pretty quickly from a few people, including Essie.

[00:15:02] And we went to auction, I want to say right before Thanksgiving, like it was crazy. I had my family coming in and I'm on the phone, like with my agent, like, okay, here's this offer and here's this offer. And what do you think? And very, very luckily Berkeley came in with one of the highest offers and because I was very scared. I didn't know what was going to happen. I had some really great meetings, but if this imprint has a much higher, you know, offer than Berkeley, I'm not going to be able to go with my dream imprint probably. And so Berkeley is one of the last few offers to come in and it was a number I was hoping for.

[00:15:32] And it was one of the highest. So your career from what I'm hearing seems like it is driven by the want to do the work and making sure that what it is that you want, like you never fall short of a goal. So like, even with the agent, the initial agent in 2020, you were like, yeah, thanks, but no thanks. I still need more work to do. When you got your final agent in 2023, it was like, I'm going with you because you see that I need more work to do.

[00:15:58] And being very clear about what it is that you want out of writing and publishing specifically, because those are two different things. Where does that come from? I don't know. I think it was just, like I said, discernment and being able to trust your gut. I joke with my friends, like I manifested my journey through publishing, but I think that what it really means is that you put yourself in places to achieve your goals and make sure that you know what those are, what you need to do to get there. And so I do a lot of research.

[00:16:27] I do a lot of like, I knew like the editor. I see the scientist coming out. I see that it comes from the scientist side. It's very organized and analytical. And it's like, no, we're going to test this one more time. We're going to run more experiment. We're going to once more. Exactly. Yeah. And you can't be afraid to like pass up an opportunity if it doesn't feel like the right thing, or if it just doesn't align with what you think your goals are, you could be wrong. Like I have to be okay with the fact that, you know, sometimes I might be wrong, but so

[00:16:55] far I have gotten where I wanted to be because I, you know, made sure that I was keeping in mind my goals and not straying from them because it's very easy to be persuaded when someone's like, you're ready to go on sub tomorrow. And I'm like, so then once you got with Berkeley, did you get with Essie? Yes. Yes. Yes. She was the editor we reached out to and she was, yeah. Thank God. So then what was that editing process like? It was very minimal. Like I, some people I know get edit letters that are like 10, 15 pages. My edit letter was one page.

[00:17:25] And that's because I had been working on the book so long. I'm sure, you know, from 2020 to 2023, I had revised so many times. It was really, I guess, in good shape. So those agents weren't far off when they said, you know, you're ready to go on sub. I probably was. But once Essie came on board, she's like, this is a very good shape. We had very minor. Like she asked me to add a few chapters here and there to make the relationship a bit more of a slower burn. But other than that, yeah, it's pretty much the book that I went on sub with is the book that's out now. All right.

[00:17:54] So then without further ado, can you read something from Once Upon a Time in Dollywood and I can ask you all about Eve and Jamie? Absolutely. Once Upon a Time in Dollywood by Ashley Jordan is a romance novel featuring Eve and Jamie. She, a budding playwright, flees New York City and everything and everyone in it, including her fiance for the solitude of the Tennessee mountains. And he, a carpenter and single dad, is trying to put his life back together after an ultimate betrayal.

[00:18:23] When they meet each other, Eve and Jamie have to decide if it's worth it to keep running from their problems or finally face them and maybe even together. Here's Ashley. Okay. So I'm going to read from chapter three, which is right before Eve and Jamie actually meet and when she first arrives to Tennessee. Within the hour, Eve had finished unpacking the two carry-on size suitcases meant to sustain her for the next few weeks, maybe months. They were full of mostly light sweaters and leggings. She wouldn't need much else to sit around alone and she'd be headed back to New York

[00:18:53] before it got unbarrowly cold. After finding some candles and matches to get her through the night, Eve briefly considered calling her mother, per her father's request, but she was too tired by the drive and, well, life to feign cordiality. She opted for a quick text just to let them know she'd arrive safely, but when it didn't go through, she remembered her mother's warning of how bad the reception was up here. Shit. This is the kind of thing horror movies were made of. Last house on the left, indeed.

[00:19:20] Eve roamed the ground floor in search of a bar, maybe two, padding from the kitchen to the master bedroom and back to the front door. She continued down the short staircase of the porch and into the yard, the message not going through until she was nearly at the mailbox. It was soon followed by an influx of missed texts and calls from her friends, most notably her bestie imploring her to check in. Defenseless against Maya's overbearing ways, Eve walked into the middle of the street, hoping the signal would somehow improve enough to make the call.

[00:19:46] Four rings before being met with Maya's sunny voicemail greeting, and she held the phone close to her face as if it could mimic the feeling of a hug from her friend. It's me, Eve spoke after the beep. I just got here. I'm fine. She sighed at the lie she was telling herself as she surveyed the vacant landscape ahead. The reception is awful here, so catch me if you can. Love you. Eve ended the call, stuffed her phone in her pocket, and took off for a walk, wanting to reacquaint herself with the lay of the land.

[00:20:13] The neighborhood was nearly silent, save for a few chirping birds and leaves whispering in the wind, and as she continued down the road, making her way to the bottom of a steep hill, the faint burble of running water tickled the air. She'd noticed the creek on her way in, but as she came to a bridge in the road, she spotted the small waterfall. In the distance, the mountain range made for a splendid backdrop to it all. The sky was a crisp blue, the mountains a blanket of forest green beneath it. Eve's friend Brian was an amateur photographer, and he would have had a field day soaking up this place.

[00:20:42] She almost took out her phone to take some pictures for him, but wasn't ready for the conversation it would prompt. Instead, Eve followed the bridge's path, allowing it to take her straight down to the creek. There was a charming little painted sign on the way that read Fish and Hole, which made her grin. Eve tiptoed through the high grass until she was at the edge of the moss-colored water. She took a seat where the grass was the shortest, closed her eyes, and inhaled the fresh air, the rippling sound filling her mind. And for a few quiet minutes, she let herself believe that it wasn't utterly reprehensible

[00:21:10] to leave New York the way she did. A spectator might have assumed she was meditating. A previous version of herself probably would have been praying. Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. My last confession was 17 years ago. I led a man to believe I was going to marry him because I was too scared to be alone, and then I dumped him unceremoniously because I ran out of the bandwidth to pretend. Thank you. So you talked a little bit about some of the themes that you wanted to hit in this novel, which were grief and loss.

[00:21:39] There's some trauma there, but also longing and love. Why were those the main themes that you were focused on from the outset? I think they are universal themes, and particularly at the time that I was rewriting the book, it was just so prevalent in my life and I think everyone's life. We were in the middle of losing so many people at such a rapid rate, and so grief was just prevailing at the time. And so I thought that it made sense for me to try to tackle this. I didn't expect it would take another five years for the book to get published,

[00:22:08] but I think it's always resonant because that's just a part of life, and that's what I hope all my books do is explore the human condition and how we get through this thing called life. So then let's talk about the human condition of these characters. Eve is the only daughter of immigrant parents. Her dad is Haitian. Her mother is Black American. Yes. They have lots of expectations on her. She's still reeling from a childhood trauma that no one will address. Yes.

[00:22:36] She's in this relationship engagement that she doesn't want, and so she's just like, fuck it all, and leaves to Tennessee. Why Tennessee? I didn't have a specific reason. It was just like when the book was originally written, it was set in Atlanta because The Walking Dead is set in Atlanta, which is where I live. And so I was looking for some place nearby that she could drive to and where she could be alone but not unsafe.

[00:23:03] And so I chose this area because of the national parks in Dollywood, and I knew that if needed, there would be other people around, there'd be other Black people around, despite this very small town of mostly white people. And so I had that locale, and I decided to keep it because it just made sense. And people ask me about the title all the time. How did I come up with it? It was literally just because I thought it was cute because of the area. Like, Dollywood was not in this book originally. It was just, this is where Dollywood is set, and I like the title.

[00:23:32] And so Jasmine was like, okay, great title, but where's the Dollywood? And my agent said the same thing. So we backed into that whole thing. But yeah, I chose this area just because it was close to Atlanta. So when did Dollywood actually get into the novel? Because the title line is in the book, in the final version. It's very cute. I was like, oh, that's sweet. But when did the Dollywood portion actually go into the book? I had added it once I was revising with Jasmine.

[00:23:58] And then once I talked to my agent, she said, you know, this is good, but let's make the title make a little bit more sense. So all of that really came together in my revisions with my agent where we tied in this idea of it being this fantastical place for Eve, this sort of utopia that represents her childhood and what she couldn't have. That all came pretty late in the game. But it wasn't really like a utopia. Like why she went there of all places, I feel like that's the scene of her trauma. I was like, I'm lost. No, it was.

[00:24:28] The specific part Dollywood represented this place she could never have because her grandmother wouldn't let her go. She wouldn't let her, wouldn't take her. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, the scene of Tennessee, it was like she was going there for penance. It was like a punishment for her in a way. Like, you know, she's Catholic. Very self-flagellation has to print the scarlet letter. Exactly. So yeah, she went there as sort of punishment to herself, despite her setting this boundary with her fiance and her parents. She's going there as sort of a, it's supposed to be a retreat in a way, but also I think in the back of her mind,

[00:24:58] this is the scene of the crime and it's a bit of a punishment for me to come down here alone and try to get through this whole thing. Right. And then she meets this man. Child. So let's talk about Jamie. Jamie. Because Jamie is up there and had been friends with Eve's grandmother. That's the house that Eve goes to. Her grandmother has passed and Jamie's kind of like taking care of the property unbeknownst to her. Right. The meet cute, right? Yes. And he has his own issues. He's a single dad.

[00:25:27] He's got a trash-ass baby mama. Yes. I follow him like I see him. Like I talk about all the trash-ass men in books. Now we got to talk about the trash-ass women. So he got a trash-ass baby mama. And, you know, he meets this girl and he's kind of interested. Where did he come from as a character? He's inspired by Rick Grimes, the main lead character of The Walking Dead. But also just, I wanted someone who, same as the relationship in The Walking Dead,

[00:25:58] I wanted someone that was a good fit for Eve in the sense that he was a soft space for her, you know, a safe place for her. But also someone who would push her, albeit gently. Like he's not going to push too hard. But, you know, he was not going to just accept all the bullshit he's accepted after this terrible relationship he's been in. You know, he has to figure out how to set his own boundaries. But I also wanted someone with like high emotional intelligence. I think that is something that we all yearn for in our partners.

[00:26:23] And so I really wanted that to be clear about him and just someone who she could trust. That's why I wanted to make sure that he knew her grandmother because she was very wary anyway. But she would have been even more so if he had not been able to, you know, prove that he recognized her immediately because of her grandmother. So those are all the things that I was thinking about when crafting him. This novel still sounds like it's now published fan fiction from The Walking Dead is really what it is. It is. Yeah. I love that for you. It was like it started with The Walking Dead and which is very silly.

[00:26:54] Those are very good characters. The show is not good, but the characters are. No, I don't think it's silly. I think it's fun that, you know, something that you started doing for fun because you enjoyed a show has blossomed into your own version of something else, like another derivative. So Jamie is based off the main character from The Walking Dead. I feel like I need to go watch the show because I've never watched it. I cannot recommend the show. I'm so sorry. But if you want to, you know. That's fine. I get my Deni Gurira fix in Black Panther. Exactly.

[00:27:23] And everybody was like, you know, well, she's been doing that since she was Michonne in Walking Dead. And I'm like, I'm gonna take your word for it. Yeah. Do that because it's the writing is so much to be desired. I think it has fantastic characters, but that show pissed me off every other week. Okay. Truly noted. So Jamie has this high emotional intelligence for Eve who is overly emotional but doesn't like to talk about it. Yeah. And they immediately like, it's not quite enemies to lovers. No.

[00:27:53] But it's kind of enemies to lovers because she's like, I can't stand this man. It's not him. It's just the idea of being around someone who she has to like, you know, relate to. And she's very scared of someone else like making her address this pain that she's trying to avoid. And so this idea, in theory, she came down here to be alone. And so the fact that he's like invading her space, she's like, god damn it. I thought I was getting away from people. So yeah, that's more of her worry right there. It's not him specifically because she can't avoid him.

[00:28:23] She came down to be alone, but I don't think she actually went down to deal with her issues. I think she just went down. She went down to run away from them. Exactly. And not deal with her parents or the fiance or what happened to her the last time that she was down in the mountains of Tennessee. Yeah. And so she's faced with this guy who's making her pull back all her layers. Including sexually. Yes. I have never read like that particular block before.

[00:28:52] I was like, she does this thing in the name of satisfying her desires, but not really. So where did that come from? Like, you're the psychologist on the platform today. So like, give me the science behind the character, you know, going but so far as if she's like Keisha in forever. I'll let that reference, you know, be the spoiler. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:18] I think, yeah, it is really hard for her because as she mentioned, like she has associated sex with trauma for all these years. She gets pregnant first time she has sex. And it's like, my mother has made sure that I always felt shame about that. So the idea of having sex for pleasure is just not something that computes with me. At this stage in my life, I want this baby, but enjoyment, what is that? And Jamie is the person who forces her to sort of unpack that and, you know, finally experience, if she wants to experience joy, let's give it a try.

[00:29:46] But the idea of her just doing this one thing for him and him not being able to reciprocate, that's a foreign concept for someone like Jamie who wants to be equal and everything. So, yeah, I think that it was definitely deliberate to have her try and to be like, nope, I can't do it. So here, I'll do this for you instead. And he's like, actually, no, this isn't working for me. So we got to figure this out. Either we do nothing or, you know, let's go all in. So, yeah, his very line of I'm very good at it. I was like, oh, OK. OK, young man. All right.

[00:30:16] Brag on your skill set. Exactly. It was a very fun and enjoyable read. And the development of the characters of all their traumas and neuroses, their families. So, like where those traumas and their neuroses are rooted in developing the characters like of Jamie's brother and his parents and their relationship and how that affected him as well as, you know, Eve's parents and then also their friend groups.

[00:30:41] And how the community that they built for themselves kind of really held them down when they were ready to just like blow up their lives and both sacrifice themselves, but not for each other. And it plays a lot on the meaning of ambition. And even when you seem to be successful, what it is that you're still lacking in life or what it is that you still want.

[00:31:06] Like everyone sees these outward trappings that Jamie has, like he's very wealthy from his work as, you know, a furniture maker. Eve is very successful as an up and coming playwright and artisan. Yet they still have this longing and this ache inside of them. When you were developing what it is that they were yearning for, yes, it had to be each other because it's a romance novel. But were you trying to speak to something greater in the themes of it all? Yeah, definitely.

[00:31:33] Thinking about it for myself especially, but just like what is happiness and what is the difference between happiness and joy? And also what does that entail? And I think especially for women in their 30s, it is thinking about what is motherhood? Do I want to be a mother? All that stuff. Unfortunately, we only have a limited amount of time to figure that out for ourselves. And so I thought it was really important to have Eve go through this. I remember someone leaving feedback that they were very disappointed, like that Eve didn't reunite with her son.

[00:32:01] And I was like, well, that wasn't the point. I think one of the things that Eve's therapist tells her is like your healing can't depend on someone else. And so the idea of her being happy or complete or whatever it is, it couldn't depend on being reunited with this boy who has his own life. Reentering his life was going to help her, not him necessarily. And so that couldn't be the point of her being able to go on this healing journey. It had to be about making peace with that. And same with her father.

[00:32:26] Like you can't rely on their words to complete you, to make you feel better. Like you have to figure out how to move on despite what's going on. However you felt about what your parents did, you know, you have to move on from it. You're not responsible for your damage, but you are responsible for your healing. And they can't necessarily be a part of it. You know, she demanded having that conversation with her parents. But if they weren't there for it, she has to still figure out how to move on. That psych degree is really coming in handy in this book. Good choice.

[00:32:56] Good choice. Good choice. You talked about, you know, trying to define the difference between happiness and joy. What is the difference? Kirk Franklin says this. In one of his songs, like being happy means you need to have something happening. And joy is just a state of being, I think. And that should be more the goal than just to be happy. One of my favorite lines that I did put in the book is from Mad Men. Don Draper says, what is happiness? It's a moment where you need more happiness. Like it's a moment. And that, again, that can't be something you depend on.

[00:33:23] And I'm realizing that as I releasing this book, I was so happy when it came out. And like slowly, as you know, things have died down, like that has like dissipated. And it has to be about the joy that you've released this thing and the feeling that it's out in the world. And it can't depend on other people and what they're saying. It's about, you know, your accomplishment and how I feel about that, you know, more than being happy that people are reading it or whatever. You talk about favorite lines. My favorite line is the one where Eve is, I think she's talking to Maya.

[00:33:51] She's like, I'm Carmi, Jamie's Claire, and my play is the bear, and we're in season two. And I hollered because I love the bear. I love it. I love it. And I love all the pop culture references in the novel. It's very contemporary. It's very now. It's very much how 30-something women talk to each other, how they may date, relate, and mate, and do all the things. And how they're really trying to figure out who they are and what they want. Was that intentional?

[00:34:21] Because I feel like romance is skew a little younger for you to age your characters up and like really deal with what's coming for you in, I guess it's middle age. I'm not claiming that. Yeah. But, you know, let's go with that. Absolutely. It was definitely intentional because that's one of the things that, as I get older, frustrates me about modern romance is like I can't relate. Like, you know, they're kids now to me.

[00:34:44] So I really wanted to make a millennial protagonist like me and also, yeah, someone in their 30s who, like me, is dealing with all these things, you know, where career and personal life kind of collide. And, you know, you're experiencing all this success in your career, but personal life is a little bit of a mess, you know. It's just a shambles. Yeah. Yeah. You're trying to figure out, like I said, you have this very small window if you're a woman to figure out like, do I want kids? Do I want a family? What is marriage and all that stuff?

[00:35:11] And I think that's the most interesting parts of our lives and specifically because certainly life gets better and worse as you get older for all these different reasons. But, yeah, for specifically for me and my age, I really wanted a character who felt like me and who I could relate to and who I feel like other women my age could see themselves in. So then in being very intentional about that, what do you want these millennial women like yourself, like myself to get from this novel that you've written? And anyone who comes to it because it's not just for millennial women. It's for everyone.

[00:35:41] But what do you want me to take from it? I, my mom and her friends have been very excited about the book and I'm like, no, if you will like it, but I hope you read it, you know. And so many of them have come back and been like, I absolutely loved it. Like, I understand I wasn't the target audience, but I definitely took something away from it. And that has been really gratifying because I do hope that people take away this idea that you don't actually have to have it all figured out at this age. Like, you know, it's totally fine if your personal life is a mess and you're soaring in your career.

[00:36:08] But, you know, you still have to figure out all these little things that are going to make your life complete. And I think that's probably a lifelong journey. But understanding that is really the main thing that I wanted people to take away. It's okay to be a mess, especially for black women. It's okay to be sad or angry. You're depressed or whatever it is like you are still worthy of love. You are still worthy of grace, which is a really big thing because I think that so many of us don't get that. We don't get the space to have anxiety.

[00:36:32] You know, we're labeled as whatever, like mad or angry or, you know, even you can be shy and people will think just because you're not smiling that you're mean. And so I really want us to discard those labels and understand you are perfect just the way you are. And you still deserve all the things you want out of life, however you are. I love that. And so with all that in mind, what are you working on next? Oh, man. I'm technically nothing. I am still trying to figure out what like book two will be with my publisher.

[00:37:01] But what I really hope is that we see even Jamie again and that I can explore a little bit or a lot a bit of Maya and her girlfriend. I mean, right now they're very happy. So I would like to like pull them apart. I think when I first pitched it, I was like, I want to do Lemonade for Lesbians. How does that sound? So we'll see if I can do that. Okay. I've got nothing. Lemonade for Lesbians. I'm here for it. Okay, good. I will tell my publisher.

[00:37:30] I will also ask though, going back to the business of it. We mentioned it that you are a Reese's Book Club pick. How has that been in the support of the novel and getting it into the hands of readers to have such a major book club behind you and behind this work? This is my first book, so I have no idea like what to compare it to. I hope it's doing well for a Reese's Book Club novel, but certainly for a debut, like it has been incredible to see like just the response of sales, the reviews that have come in. It is really been gratifying.

[00:37:59] And I didn't think that it was even possible because with Lit Up, I thought that was it. Like I didn't think we could be picked as official Reese's Book Club pick. I thought it would be like, I don't know, maybe a conflict of interest or something. I don't know. But I found out actually by accident because my book got moved up. I was originally supposed to come out late October and my friend texted me on Saturday morning. She's like, why does Amazon say your book's going to deliver in August? And I was like, what are you talking about? That's not true.

[00:38:27] And so we have this thing called an author portal where you can go and see details about your book, including the release date. And indeed it said August 5th. And I freaked out. I texted my agent like, why are they doing this to me? Why are they moving up my book? Why are they trying to sabotage me? And she's like, okay, calm down. It's either a glitch or it's a book club. And if it was a book club, they would have told us. So I was like, all right, it's a glitch. I'm going to calm down till Monday morning. Monday morning comes, they still don't have any answers. And I'm like, okay, they're fucking with me now. Like, this is very silly.

[00:38:56] So I went to the movies because I was really frustrated with like the lack of any information at all. Yeah. I was like, I can't take this. I was sitting in a movie theater. My agent texted me. She's like, hey, your editor wants to do a Zoom call. I'm like, okay. I'm in the movies and freaking out again. Cause I'm like, what could be going on? Something bad has happened, certainly. So we get on this call and they're like, yeah, so your book got moved up because you're the Reese's Book Club pick for August. And I was like, completely unbelievable. And at the time they had not chosen another lit up book yet.

[00:39:26] They eventually did for Alison King. She was two months ahead of me. But at that time I was just like, are you guys sure? Cause I don't think they do that. Like I just did not believe it. Always doubting. Always doubting. Listen, my analytical brain was like, I, this doesn't make sense. But yeah, so that, that happened. And it's really been a dream as I remember putting it in one of my query letters that I, like, like this is the type of book I hope would be a Reese's Book Club pick way back in 2020, 2021, something like that. And yeah.

[00:39:53] So for that to come true, it doesn't quite make sense, but also it kind of does. Cause I've been manifesting this whole thing. So yeah, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much. All right. So I want to move to a speed round and a game before I let you go for the morning. What is your favorite book? My favorite book, like of all time is An American Marriage by Tayari Jones. Who was your favorite author? Oh God, that's hard. Romance author is Kennedy Ryan. General author, I think I'd have to say Toni Morrison. Okay.

[00:40:23] Who was your favorite artist? Any genre? Oh, Beyonce. I figured that was coming. What is your favorite TV show? Of all time, Mad Men. What is the best book to movie or book to series adaptation? The first thing that came to mind was To All the Boys I Loved Before. It was just like, I'm a little too old for it at this point, but it was so good. It was like, and even better than the book, which never happens. So now since you are a Reese's Book Club pick, so you're already in the system.

[00:40:52] If Once Upon a Time in Dollywood gets, you know, that Hello Sunshine treatment, who would you want to play Eve and Jamie? Seeing this is inspired by Danai and Homeboy from The Walking Dead. Yes. They are, I mean, that would be great, but also they're a little bit older than my characters at this point. So I have been thinking Jamie Lawson from Sinners for Eve. And then for Jamie, I don't know, like, Glenn Powell has the right voice. Like, I was like, can we get him for an audiobook?

[00:41:22] But I think David Cornswit from Superman would be, make a good Jamie. Okay. He's a little tall, but besides that, I think he fits. If money were no object, where would you go? What would you do? And where would you live? Ooh, I, interestingly, I really love living in Atlanta. Like, I think I get spoiled because I can walk outside and like see Black people whenever I leave my house. So, and whenever I leave the city, I'm just like, oh, I don't like this. So I would live. Atlanta is still in Georgia.

[00:41:52] Listen. But I would live here, but if I could go anywhere, like I really need a good vacation. I want to go to Victoria Falls in just like a month or so, just like relax. I have not had a vacation in forever. My cousin's making me go on a cruise for her wedding and I'm really dreading it because I'm terrified of the ocean. But otherwise, yeah, I would go and just like, I'd do some writing for sure, but mostly just relax in Victoria Falls if I could. Name three things on your bucket list. Ooh, I don't have a bucket list. Let's see.

[00:42:21] Wow. What would be on my bucket list? Why did you stump me with this? Oh my gosh. I can't believe I never even thought about this. For some reason, I have literally never thought about this before. And maybe because it makes me think about life and ending. So it just makes me sad. So then if you don't have a bucket list, that's fine. We can move on. That's fine. What brings you joy? A lot of things bring me joy. Like music brings me joy. I love watching TV. Like TV is probably one of my favorite things in the world.

[00:42:48] But I noticed recently, like I get a real serotonin boost from like watching dog videos. I had a dog and he died last year and I've been really, really sad about it. But just being able to see different people, their love for their dogs and how they relate to humans, I think just really makes me smile every single time. What brings you peace? Morning. I think that just like waking up and the idea of starting a new day, all the possibility in the world. I just love morning time.

[00:43:15] And even though I'm a night owl, I really do just love waking up and those moments before anything is going, before I check my phone or anything like that. That's the most peaceful part of my life. And so we're going to go to our game. It's called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wish you would have written. Oh my God. I love it. All right. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? I recently read and watched The Thursday Murder Club and I really liked the book.

[00:43:44] I really liked that exploration of like people in their older age and the lives they live in those homes. But I really, this is, I guess this is a spoiler, but I didn't like that who the murderer was and that they had to turn him, like they didn't really turn him in, but the idea that he had to like pay for his crime. I didn't like that. So I would just let him get away with it. All right. And my messy question, name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught. And why? I'm trying to remember what I like read in high school.

[00:44:14] I'm sure like Catcher in the Rye, like why? I didn't need to read that. That did nothing for me. Stop making children read that. Last year, there were so many people who said Catcher in the Rye. Catcher in the Rye has caught all the smoke on this podcast. You know why? Because they literally make everyone read it. And it just, why? I never read it. They didn't make us read it. Oh, I'm so happy for you. We read some other stuff that I was like, why? But Catcher in the Rye was not in that number.

[00:44:43] At least not in the classes I was in. I'm very happy for you, honestly. Waste of time. All right. My final question. And so this is going to give you an existential crisis again. I'm just preparing you. Okay. But when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind? Not you holding your chest. Not you holding your chest like you have gone to glory. You did warn me, but Jesus Christ.

[00:45:13] Existential crisis for real. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. I hope that they write that I was a writer who understood the human condition and wrote a realistic, grounded romance about Black women and giving them the stories that they deserved and the happy endings that they deserved. And I think that's basically my mission statement and that she did good with the time that she had. Amen. Thank you.

[00:45:42] Lord, I have to go cry now. Big thank you to Ashley Jordan for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Ashley on the socials at AshleyJordanWrites on Instagram and threads. And make sure you check out Once Upon a Time in Dollywood. It's out now from Berkeley. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week.

[00:46:12] If you liked this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published and that's B-L-K & Published. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Ashley about the reason she believes more Black authors should discuss their fan fiction origins as a viable path to publishing. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:46:39] I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Lisa Smith, author of the novel Jamaica Road. I was astonished by the level of racism and anti-immigrant feeling there was back then. I think I must have blanked it out. And it felt like we hadn't really moved on. We've moved on a little bit, but not that much. And I just thought, what was it like for me growing up around that? And what would it be like for these two characters growing up around that?

[00:47:05] And so that was part of the spur why I wanted to, I guess, delve deeper into this story. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young.

[00:47:32] Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.