The Proof is in the Writing with Victoria Christopher Murray

[00:00:00] This is what we have to do as Black people. We have to prove ourselves over and over and over again. And I'm hoping that Black readers will rise up with this book. I'm hoping that I will be able to get the numbers to prove them wrong. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:29] Today, we have a return guest. Victoria Christopher Murray is back on the pod to discuss her historical fiction novel, Harlem Rhapsody. It tells the story of how the Harlem Renaissance was birthed at a book party for the one and only, Jessie Redmond Fawcett. And it was the first party. It was a launch for her book. But it was also the first time that Black writers sat with white publishers.

[00:00:54] That kind of thing had never happened. White publishers weren't publishing Black people. That's why Jessie discovered so many. The only place they could be published was in the prices. Victoria is clear in her novel, and in our conversation, that there would have been no boon in Black literature then or now without the visionary work of Ms. Fawcett.

[00:01:15] How her birth of a movement started with an illicit love affair. Plus, the countless writers Fawcett discovered and mentored whose works we still return to today. And the echoes of the past and the present Victoria is seeing in her own career where she's been mandated to prove herself and to readers that Black stories sell. That and more is next, when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:42] All right, so then let's jump in because, Miss Victoria, the last time we talked to you, it was for Pride, which was the last book you were going to write in the Seven Deadly Sins series. And at the end of that interview, you had asked me, did I know who Jessie Redmond Fawcett was?

[00:02:07] And I said yes. And now this book that you have now, Harlem Rhapsody, is all about Miss Jessie Redmond Fawcett. All about her. And not only what she did for the crisis and Black literacy and the Harlem Renaissance, which she kicked off, but about her illicit affair with Dr. W.E.B. Du Bois.

[00:02:29] So, where do we begin? Because I was reading a book and I was like, I was calling Dr. W.E.B. Du Bois all types of names that weren't his. It's so interesting because as you're writing the book, as I write, I just write the story. Once I find the story, I write the story. I'm not thinking about people's reactions.

[00:02:53] And as the book is out there now, I'm a little shocked at people like, girl, that W.E.B. And I never wanted the book to be about the affair. I wanted the book to be about her. I wanted the book to be about her and all the people she discovered and how she really set off the Harlem Renaissance.

[00:03:17] And Harlem Renaissance wouldn't have continued if she hadn't mentored all those writers who were able to get books after her because her first book came. But I couldn't tell the story without the affair. Because if she had not had the affair with W.E.B., I don't know if it would have been a Harlem Renaissance. Because it was because of the affair that she was brought to New York to run the crisis. To run the crisis. And be the literary editor.

[00:03:46] There had never been a literary editor before her. And there was never one after her. How do you explain that? And I also, I would not have written the affair if I wasn't absolutely, totally sure it happened. Between letters and between his Pulitzer winning biographer. And in there, he talks extensively about Jesse and Will. And he's the one that first called them star-crossed lovers.

[00:04:13] And he got the information about their affair from interviews on source and people who wanted to be anonymous. So I was absolutely sure of that. Then other research articles that talked about their affair. And then a little bit of my own critical thinking. He had a lot of women in his life. Indeed. A lot of women that I could have named but didn't.

[00:04:43] You know, I just did the one. And it would be hard to believe that a man who had all of these women invited a younger woman from D.C. to come there. A very attractive woman to come there. And he wasn't having an affair. So I put in my critical thinking above the facts, above a letter. A couple of letters I found. One of them was after their breakup.

[00:05:11] So it didn't make it into the book. But he's sitting outside her apartment looking at the window. And the light is on. And he wishes he could come in. That's not the letter you write to your co-worker, right? No. No, that's not a letter that you write to your co-worker or your employee or your subordinate. You don't. So I wouldn't have written it unless it really happened. And so I will stand up and defend if that's what happened.

[00:05:41] That was the thing that got it going. She took that and turned it into a literary movement. So then let's talk about Miss Jessie Redmond Fawcett, her pedigree, her education, and what it was that she had to really discover and hone the talents of like a Langston Hughes and a County Cullen.

[00:06:05] What should readers of Harlem Rhapsody know about her that may be overshadowed by the affair? Yeah. So I hope it's not. Because this is the first book where I actually like counted the scenes because I didn't want there to be more scenes. I did. I never do that. But what people need to know is who she was. I love this question because who she was, was the first black female to graduate from Cornell University. She was in her time.

[00:06:33] She thought she was the first black female by Beta Kappa. She wasn't, but that wasn't discovered till like the year 2000 because they didn't have the internet. She was the second, but she thought she was the first. She majored in languages at Cornell. She studied abroad. So think about this. This was 1914 when she took the ship from New York all the way over to France so that she

[00:07:03] could study at La Savon. And so she was a woman who loved languages, loved words, and she dreamt of a bigger life than being a wife and mother. And I don't want anyone to take that negatively. Think about what the definition of a wife and mother was in 1914. It was staying home because women still were just beginning to work. And that wasn't her ministry.

[00:07:30] So I don't want anyone to judge her for saying that's not what she wanted. She just saw herself being able to travel the world. Being able, I mean, there's a scene in the book where she's in an airplane. In 19, what was it? 21, I think they were over there. And so she just saw this grand life. And she was kind of stuck, not stuck, because she did like teaching.

[00:07:55] She was stuck in a school in Washington, D.C., teaching at Dunbar, which was the premier school in the United States. And then she got this opportunity to go live in New York in the middle of this growing Black pride. It was the very first time that Black people had pride in themselves because it was only 50 years after emancipation. And so that's who she was.

[00:08:21] She was part of the talented Tim, a very attractive woman, very smart woman. And she went to New York and started a literary movement. And so in her coming to New York to start that literary movement, The Crisis was already in publication by W.E.B. Du Bois at that time as the premier magazine for the Negro movement and the NAACP and all of that.

[00:08:46] What did she do with it that distinguished it from before she became the literary editor? So what she did was it with the literary stuff. They didn't have that in there before. She came in there. It was still a very important magazine. It was the largest periodical, the only periodical that told Black people across the country, it was a national magazine, what was going on. And so that's how people got their news.

[00:09:12] I've heard people say that in their grandmother's house, there were two pieces of literature that was important, the Bible and the crisis. That's how it was. That's how it was. And even Langston Hughes said that, that in his grandmother's house, it was the Bible and the crisis. But what she did was bring that artistic arm to it. She was brought in as the literary editor to bring pieces in there. He had never done that before. He'd never gone out. W.E.B.

[00:09:41] He was so busy being the activist that he was, being the fighter of equality that he was, that he didn't, even though he knew art could be used as propaganda and would be very important, and even though he was a writer himself, he began to read some of the stuff that Jessie would send in and submit for publication before she became a literary editor. And I think he thought, oh, we can have this little section in the magazine.

[00:10:11] She could go find a few people, and then I can still have her here in New York. And so what she did was she found Langston Hughes. She found Jean Toomer. She found Nella Larson. She found all of these people who had never published before. She found them, edited them, mentored them in their private life, and published them before anyone else. Yes.

[00:10:37] Langston Hughes, Jean Toomer, Nella Larson, County Cullen, Gwendolyn Bennett. The list of names goes on and on and on. But her role as a literary editor of The Crisis expanded into a project for children. Can you talk about the importance of what became the Brownies book and why literacy was so important in that aspect? Isn't that interesting, too?

[00:11:05] Because we haven't had a magazine since then that lasted. We had Ebony Jr. for a while. But the Brownies book was a vision of WDB. Again, he was a visionary. He couldn't always carry the visions out because he was traveling the world. I think people used to call him like the president of Negroes across the world. But the Brownies book was a vision that he had because he wanted to make sure Black children

[00:11:33] saw themselves in a positive image. And there were no positive images. None. Not even a little bit of them anywhere in the world. Anywhere. And he read a poem. I think it was called Ten Little Niggers. It's in the book. I didn't put the whole poem. But that was the thing that he said, that's it. I cannot. And that poem was published in a children's magazine. And so he said, that's it. We're not doing this anymore.

[00:12:01] We need to give positive images to our children. But he didn't have any time to do it. And Jessie Redmond Fawcett ran the entire magazine by herself. And that's where she first published Langston Hughes and Nella Larson, specifically those two. That's where she first published the two of them. In the Brownies book. And it's so interesting that you say the inspiration behind that children's magazine was the racist poem,

[00:12:31] Ten Little Niggers, because I think about how long nursery rhymes have lasted. And so now my daughter is three. And the nursery rhymes that even she'll sing, there's five little monkeys jumping on the bed. And I'm just like, that's not. Those aren't the original lyrics. That's not what they were talking about. But it's endured. Like Mickey Mouse has endured. Like Miranda Rosie has endured. All of these are seemingly innocuous.

[00:13:01] Pieces of Americana or pop culture. But are so steeped in racist stereotypes. And tropes about Black people. And death. And how we're seen. And yet the Crisis and the Brownies book. Were both emblematic. Of not only what Black people could be. As aspirational. But who Black people were and are. In reality. What was it like for you to. Really.

[00:13:30] Color in this period of time. In your novel. So that people could get a visceral sense. Of what it was like to be. Young. Young gifted and Black. Young gifted and Black. In 1924. Somebody. I did an interview yesterday. And the woman was saying. She had never been to Harlem. And she felt like she was in Harlem. You know. From reading the book. She could feel it. And I think that's just part of the gift. That God gave me. Because I didn't sit down and say. Okay. Let me make sure.

[00:13:59] Everybody feels like they're in Harlem. But I wrote it as if I was there. You know what I mean? So I spent about. In total. About five weeks. In Harlem. Soaking up the energy. They're still building. Standing. That's like a church. I know exactly. The block she lived on. The YMCA is still there. And most importantly. The library is still there. It's the Schomburg. Where I did all of my studying. That's where Langston Hughes ashes are. And so.

[00:14:28] Isn't that where Nella Larson worked? Yes. That's where Nella Larson worked. That's where Ernestine Rose worked. That was the library of the Harlem Renaissance. And so that's still there. For me to be able to do all my research in there. Was just amazing. So I don't want to say easy. But that's one of the things. That I think I'm able to do as a writer. A writer. Is to make somebody feel like they're in a place. And so I do that. When I teach writing. I teach people to. The way you make somebody feel like they're there.

[00:14:58] Is to use all five senses. And so sometimes as writers. We only use sight and sound. And you sound better. Sound is not just dialogue. What are they hearing in the background? Let's use the music of the time. Let's use the art of the time. There was so much going on in that world. There was the first play. That was ever produced. Where a black man was in the lead. Emperor Jones.

[00:15:27] That was the first time. That the lead was a black man. Usually it would have been a white man. In black face. Mm-hmm. And so there was so much going on. And so I wanted people to feel like they were in the 1920s. Experiencing all of that. Even with the women just getting the right to vote. Even with the way the women were dressing. I wanted people to feel it. There was prohibition. You couldn't drink at that time.

[00:15:56] And so I wanted people to have all of that. But were there clubs in Harlem that were serving liquor? Of course. And so was it important to have people drinking? Yeah. Of course. So I wanted to show all of that. And talking about including the first black play. The first black male lead in a play, Emperor Jones. Which was then followed by the all black cast of Shuffle Along. Which was written and produced and scored by four black men. I had the author of the book.

[00:16:25] When Broadway was black, Cassine Gaines on. A couple years ago. And his entire book was about Shuffle Along. And how it came to be in the aftermath. But one of the arguments that WEB and Jesse have is about who has the right to put words in a black person's mouth. And it's something that's resonant today in how all art, black art, should be propaganda for the movement.

[00:16:51] And I feel like we see bits of that conversation still happening, especially in literature about what black writing can do or should do or be able to do for movements for liberation and justice. What do you think your writing has contributed in terms of not just elucidating how this history from the past is with us again, but also contributed to what art can be for us?

[00:17:17] Well, the first thing is to uncover these hidden figures who were very important. Jesse wasn't just somebody who did something. I wouldn't be here without her. You wouldn't be here talking to me without her. She started this whole thing. She wrote the very first novel about the black middle class. Can you imagine that? And I write novels about the black middle class and had never heard her name before I did this research. So the very first thing that I want my writing to do is to uncover our history.

[00:17:46] I want us to find and be proud of these people. That's why I'm a little upset about the W.E.B. I didn't consider the W.E.B. Du Bois thing and how big it would be to people because I thought everybody knew who he was in terms of that. I was more concerned about her in this story and making sure that people saw all the things she did.

[00:18:10] So I want people to see the importance of these figures because I'm going to keep writing historical figures and uncovering our history so that we can be proud. And also, I use it to show white readers, because I do have a crossover market, to show white people things that they don't know about us. I guess I am using my art as propaganda, just like W.E.B.

[00:18:37] Du Bois said it should be used to educate and to show people who don't look like us what we are really like. So I've tried to be respectful, but you have brought it up again. So I'm just going to have to say it because I was reading the book and I was calling W.E.B. all types of N-words and F-boys because I was like, this man. But then it's like, I think it's not that it overshadows our story, but I think his figure has become so larger than life.

[00:19:04] And he has been deified in ways amongst Black academics and intellectuals and writers that at the end of the day, maybe we didn't see him as a man with flaws. The same way that we would, that people gloss over that part of Martin Luther King's life. Exactly. He is, he has been deified, but he was still just a man. W.E.B. was Martin Luther King before Martin Luther King was born. Exactly. With all the good and the bad.

[00:19:32] With all the good and bad, because it was all the good that made him bad. And what I mean by that, all the good he did, that was power. That was power. All the things that he was doing was just wonderful. And women became very attracted to him. But something you just mentioned was that Jesse wrote the very first novel about the Black middle class, which is the novel There Is Confusion.

[00:19:59] And there was that supposed to be grand book party for her in 1924 at the Civic Club. Yeah. That was then hijacked from her and was really used to introduce every other writer that she mentored before she got like an honorable mention for her own book release. And yet that is the moment, a hundred years later, because the New York Times had the article last year, that they say is the very beginning.

[00:20:28] That was the beginning. Her book lock. Of what we now call the Harlem Renaissance. Because even Elaine Locke at that dinner, and I have that scene in the book, Elaine Locke said, tonight begins the New Negro Renaissance. So the New Negro Movement, where we are no longer going to be apologetic about what we write. We're going to write from our experiences. We're going to tell the truth of our existence.

[00:20:57] And it was the first part. It was a launch for her book. But it was also the first time that Black writers sat with white publishers. First time ever. Charles Johnson, the head of Opportunity Magazine, put the whole thing together for Jesse. And he said, this book is the book that everybody's been waiting for. I want to use it as like a springboard to introduce Black people to white people. That kind of thing had never happened.

[00:21:27] White publishers were publishing Black people. That's why Jesse discovered so many. The only place they could be published was in the crisis. And so they came together. And, you know, publishing hasn't changed in this way. When they find one thing that works, they all go out and try to find their person. When Terry McMillan came out with Waiting to Exhale, they all went out to find their sister girl author.

[00:21:53] And so when Jesse wrote There is Confusion, they all went out to find that Black author that they were going to bring into their publishing house. Because her book was a success. And Jean Toomer's book was not. Because Jean Toomer didn't want to be called a Negro writer. Yes, Kane. Yeah, Kane, yeah. He didn't want to be called a Negro writer. So it was an interesting time. But Jesse literally started the Harlem Renaissance with the launch of her book, There is Confusion.

[00:22:22] And I think it's interesting because Jesse and Jean Toomer have that conversation several times in the novel about his resistance to being called a Black writer. And again, so many years later, there are still some African American writers who don't want to be identified or, as they might say, pigeonholed as just a Black writer.

[00:22:44] Why do you think that has negative connotation for writers who are Black as well as for the wider literary and publishing world? Well, I'm actually experiencing a little of that now. Not with my publisher. My publisher is, I've never seen anyone behind a writer the way my publisher, Berkeley, is behind me. But outside of that, I'm seeing a little bit because I've written two historical fiction novels with a co-author who's white.

[00:23:14] The Personal Librarian First Ladies. Yeah. And so those books, critical acclaim, we've sold a million copies of The Personal Librarian. The First Ladies was a target book of the year. Big everything. And so now we both have solo books coming out a week apart. And I'm being treated as a new writer. I'm being treated as, well, we have to see how Victoria will do on her own.

[00:23:41] So Marie did have books before then, but she's been able to take The Personal Librarian and The Personal Ladies and catapult from there. I am still on a lower level. And I have to prove myself as a solo historical fiction writer. And I know I'm looking at your face. Because I don't understand. Your face is how my heart feels. And that's... There is confusion here. There is confusion.

[00:24:07] And I guess the point is, without saying it, is they believe I've only had that success because I was with the white writer. So she's been able to take the success we've had and catapult off of it. But I have to prove myself. This is my first book. Those are the words I was told. This is my first book as a solo writer. And I have to prove myself as a historical writer.

[00:24:35] So Gene Toomer didn't want to be seen that way. Because this is what he was trying to avoid. This is the kind of thing he was trying to avoid. The fact is, I'm a Black writer. I've written an important book. I think I wrote it well. I think people will be engaged. But it doesn't matter. What overshadows everything is I'm a Black writer and I'm starting over.

[00:25:05] Look at your face. Yeah. Because all that's on my mind is WTF. Like, you're not a new writer. You've been doing this. Like, you were on the show two years ago with, again, as I introduced, the last book in the Seven Deadly Sins series, Pride, which had movie deals on Lifetime. But that wasn't even your first book. You had the NAACP Image Award for the book that you wrote, Stand Your Ground.

[00:25:34] When I first met you in 2018, that had come out maybe the year before. And again, that wasn't your first book. Like, you started off self-publishing. And then that book you sent as, like, a business proposal to your agent to get represented and had big contracts with Simon & Schuster. And so this is maybe your first solo project in this genre of historical fiction. But it is absolutely not your debut.

[00:26:03] And so it is boggling my mind, as you can see. The words were, she has to prove herself. Now, to see, you can see my face. What else is there for you to prove with all the accolades I've just mentioned? Or is it because all those accolades are in Black spaces? Well, I think Lifetime in a Black Space, that's movie deals. These are, you know, the book people. And so the book people are saying those were, she didn't really have major success before.

[00:26:33] Those were all Black books. Those were all Black audience. That wasn't anything big. Like, she didn't get big numbers until she had a crossover. And she only had a crossover because she was with a white co-author. So now she has to prove herself. But I don't want us to dwell on it. I just want us to say that's exactly what Jean Toomer in Harlem Rhapsody was trying to avoid. When you ask me, you know, how do I navigate this whole thing as a Black writer? I'm experiencing that now.

[00:27:02] It's not that I want to focus the whole show on it. I really don't. Like, the book is beautiful. It tells Jesse's story well. I won't say it's an easy read, but it's an enjoyable read. It's a pleasurable read. Yes, you know, you have the affair. And it's just like, it's shocking. But again, it's not about that. It's not about him. It's what this woman was able to do with her own vision and expertise and her love for languages and words. And really for her people and her culture.

[00:27:29] But I guess it's insulting to me that everything that you're writing about in Harlem Rhapsody, that all of these authors that we know and love that are trotted out every Black History Month and anytime somebody wants to, like, you know, get Black sentiment on their side, is something that you're having to face. And you're telling the same story and it could be your own. Like, that makes me angry for you on your behalf. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:57] So I've had lots of emotions about it. Anger, sadness. And then I've settled into, oh, well, we've been here before. This is what we have to do as Black people. This is what we have to do. We have to prove ourselves over and over and over again. And I'm hoping that Black readers will rise up with this book and say, no, we're not. What do you mean this is her debut? What do you mean she has to prove herself?

[00:28:26] I'm hoping that I will be able to get the numbers to prove them wrong. I don't want to prove them right. Exactly. Because I remember, this is before we talked for our first podcast interview, I was listening to an interview. It's with you and Marie Benedict talking about the personal librarian. And I remember something that she said was that because of who the character was in her background, she could not authentically write that book without a Black writer.

[00:28:55] So you helped her career and made up for her own shortcomings as a white woman who could not really embody the character that she was trying to tell the story of. You've collaborated well. And yet her success is seen as her own, but she admits out of her own mouth she couldn't have done it without you. So I wrote that. I mean, we wrote that book together. We wrote every word of that book together. So it wasn't like she wrote it and then I came in and added the book. Right. We wrote every word.

[00:29:24] Like we're writing our third book together now and we write every word together. But I think it's seen in the white world. I don't think it's seen in the Black world this way. That was really Marie Benedict and she brought along this, you know, little Black author. And so look, and so we've sold, as I said, a million copies of that book and it had sold way more. It's helped her sell more copies of her books because it's still historical fiction.

[00:29:51] And it hasn't done the same with me because it's a different genre, which that makes sense. I don't have any issue with that. I just took a little bit offense to being told, well, you know, you have to prove yourself as a solo historical author. One more question, because I've heard some agents pitch it as because of how fractured audiences and genres can be when authors cross genres or do things like that.

[00:30:19] It almost does serve as like another debut. And so do you feel like that could be a positive thing as to to like allow me to reintroduce myself? Right. Yes, that's what I'm going to do. I said, you know, after the sadness and the anger, after all the emotions that I just saw in your face, you know, that I experienced and see you're settling into it too. After you go through all of that, you settle down and say, OK, this is who we are.

[00:30:47] So let's try to put a positive spin on it. So we take the shock and horror of somebody being able to use a book and catapult their career. Another person not being able to take that book and do nothing with it and having to start over. And you and I today have turned it around to, OK, this is my debut and it's a chance to introduce myself.

[00:31:13] And I think also what I love about Hong Kong Rhapsody is that people will see that I wrote The Personal Librarian and The First Ladies with Marie. They will see that she didn't write all the words and I just came in and dropped in some. They will see that I wrote a whole book and they're like, oh, Victoria wrote this. She writes so well. Victoria writes. Period. All right.

[00:31:41] So with all of that said and there being so many parallels from then to now, can you read something from Harlem Rhapsody? And then we can talk more about Miss Jessie Redmond Fawcett. Oh, my goodness. I hadn't been prepared for that. Harlem Rhapsody by Victoria Christopher Murray tells the story of Jessie Redmond Fawcett, a complex and ambitious woman who moved to New York to be nearer to her lover, W.E.B. Du Bois,

[00:32:08] and also to run his magazine, The Crisis. Between the scandal she had to keep quiet and an opportunity she didn't want to squander, Victoria details how Jessie Redmond Fawcett birthed what we now know as the Harlem Renaissance. Here's Victoria. Okay, so I will start at the beginning, which is when Jessie arrives in New York for the first time.

[00:32:35] And she's there with her mother, who is a white Jewish woman. It's her stepmother, but this is the only mother she's ever known because her mother died when she was very young. So this is from Jessie Redmond Fawcett's voice. I thrust open the taxi cab's door, and the moment my shoes hit the pavement, a company of city sounds welcomes me. The music enraptures me first. I can't sleep at night. I can't eat a bite.

[00:33:04] From a Victrola perch near an open window, the lyrics from Harlem Blues float down, and then Mamie Smith's Contralto drifts into the breeze. The joyous sound of two giggling girls skipping past draws me from the song until I hear a man shout, You're just bumping your guns. And uproarious laughter rises from the circle of men dwaddling in front of the barbershop a few doors away.

[00:33:31] I stand there absorbing it all, the patter of a thousand footsteps of men and ladies and kitties rushing past, motor cars chugging and clanking and clicking behind me, honking horns squealing into the air. This isn't a cacophony. This is a rhapsody. And my heart races to match its beat. Jessie, I face my mother, and I'm surprised to see her brown eyes framed by a frown.

[00:33:58] She points to my beliefs on the sidewalk next to hers. Are you expecting me to carry both? Oh, I laugh. Apologies, my mom, but we're in New York. I twirl in front of her, and my wrap coat billows at my ankles. You're behaving as if you've never lived in a big city, she says to me. Well, you can't compare Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. to this. New York is everything. It's music. It's theater. Come on. Carrying my bag, I rush toward the brownstone.

[00:34:28] At the first step, I glance over my shoulder, and my mother is standing in the same spot. In her gold overcoat and matching cloth, she is as fashionable as any New Yorker. But her eyes are as wide as mine as she soaks in the city's vivacity. My heart swells for the woman who didn't birth me, but who, for the last 25 years, has nurtured me with love.

[00:34:54] You were born from my heart, she has told me since I was 12. Over the city's music, I call out, come on, mama, in the same tone that she had just used with me. At the front door, my hand trembles with excitement. But before I can insert the key, the door swings open. Well, welcome to New York, he says. I studied the man that I first contacted when I was a student at Cornell University some 16 years ago.

[00:35:24] His mustache has been trimmed since I last saw him, and there is a bit more silver blending with the jet black hair of his beard. As always, he's dressed impeccably in one of his brown three-piece wide lapel suits, but tonight he wears a formal bow tie instead of the neckties that I know he prefers. The twinkle in his eyes draw me closer, but just as I reach for him, I remember my mother.

[00:35:54] How could I have forgotten her so quickly? Well, that is the effect of W.E.B. Du Bois. His mere presence admits a magnetic force that is difficult for me to resist. This is a reminder that now living in New York, I must be measured in my actions. This will be different from seeing Will on his occasional stopovers in Washington, D.C. I shift so my mother can enter our new apartment, but she doesn't take a single step. She expects an introduction.

[00:36:25] Mama, allow me to present Dr. William Du Bois. Mrs. Fawcett, it is my absolute pleasure to finally make your acquaintance. He takes her bag from her. My mother's smile has vanished. She steps over the threshold and greets Will with nothing more than a hmm. Thank you. So that was one of the questions that I had. Did she really move to New York as a 30-something woman with her mother? Yes.

[00:36:54] So this is what she moved to New York as a 37-year-old. Think about the time. In 1920, it was a scandal for a woman to live alone. So most reports say that she moved there with her sister. But when I look up their addresses, they have different addresses. So I couldn't explain that. So I said, okay, if they have different addresses, we know she didn't live alone. We know that for a fact.

[00:37:20] Because whenever she had those literary salons, people talked about her mother and her sister being there. So then, yes, she would have never moved to New York alone, ever. Not in 1920. She lived with someone until the day she died. An unmarried woman. It was a scandal if they lived alone. So if they even live alone, I'm trying to think about the laws. Would they even be rented to? Well, they wouldn't be rented to. Exactly, yeah. That was the challenge. That was the challenge.

[00:37:48] So even in a situation where you were living with your family, they would rent to the family. Remember that I don't even understand bank accounts and everything. But the women couldn't get a bank account or anything. Which is why a lot of the women stayed with their husbands when they were doing this. Because where were they going to go? So it wasn't possible. Now, women could live alone in places like the YWCA. That's one of the reasons it was created. So you could get a room there. But she wanted a home. So, yeah, she really did. It could never live alone.

[00:38:17] And so just because it makes the tension of the affair more like, really, girl? Oh, because of her mother? Yes. It's like you move with your mother and you're hiding this really big secret. And yes, it is for a job opportunity. But it's also so that you can see the person that you are madly in love with.

[00:38:38] Beyond that, the literary salons that she held in the home that you mentioned where her mother and her sister appeared is where they really debuted some of those first drafts of writing. How do you see her creation of community inside of her home reflected today? I just read something. Someone recommended Harlem Rhapsody. And this was a woman, when I read the article, who does literary salons here in Washington, D.C. I was like, I've got to find that.

[00:39:07] But, you know, I've seen, and I don't know other races, but I've seen writer groups form with Black people just because of the support that you need, just because of the writing support, but the emotional support of what you're going to go through as you're trying to find editors, as you're trying to find. So I think that this is something that we have continued. Marita Golden used to have meetings, and I used to go to them every quarter in her house.

[00:39:37] And we would all come with, and it would be different writers at different times, and we would talk about our projects. And I really miss those, you know. I wasn't able to always go because I was traveling so much. So I think that's something that we know. But I think Black people, no matter what they're doing, we know how to form community. No matter what we're doing, teachers get together, influencers get together.

[00:40:01] We know how to form community because we know we are the ones who have to uplift us. And not only was Jesse forming community, there was also the fostering of healthy competition. You mentioned Opportunity Magazine. Can you talk a little bit about the competition between Dr. DuBois and Charles Johnson and why the thought was that there could only be one? Well, I think it was only WEB who thought there could only be one.

[00:40:30] I'm not sure everybody else thought that. I think Charles Johnson, who, by the way, is the grandfather of Jay Johnson, who was under President Barack Obama, the head of Homeland Security. So I'd always like, whenever I see him on the TV, I'd be like, I just wrote about your grandfather. Every time. It's so funny to me. I love that part.

[00:40:54] But one of the things that I think, DuBois was very competitive and he had very strong beliefs on certain things. And so when he saw the opportunity come along and the opportunity from the beginning had Langston published something. So from the beginning, they were a literary force. The crisis wasn't a literary force until nine years later. So he didn't like that.

[00:41:23] I'm not sure I got the impression that Mr. Johnson was as competitive. I think he felt there was room for everybody. You know, the more you have out there, the more people will read, the more people will see. You're not, we're not going to be publishing the same words. It's like we Black authors. You can't have just one Black author. You know, somebody can't be an avid reader and say, I only read Victoria Christopher Murray. That's not an avid reader. I don't write books fast enough for you to read at least one a month.

[00:41:53] So there was competition. And that was the beginning of the downfall between Will and Jesse. Because she didn't see the opportunity the way he did. Even though the opportunity did something scandalous to them. But I'll let people find out about it in the book. Okay, so then we won't talk about that part. Yeah, they did do something scandalous.

[00:42:20] But that was the beginning of the problems with Will and Jesse. It was the beginning. But then I would attribute some of the downfall between the two of them to her own ambition. He saw her in a very limited role and way. And never wanted to expand upon that. Even though she was doing the job that he would not give her the title for. Yeah. And had larger ambitions for herself. And so in the beginning when we meet her, she's not married.

[00:42:50] But by the end of her life, she had married. Even though I don't think she ever had any children. Never had any children. So again, I feel that it's so reflective of like we're 100 years later. And we're still having these conversations about ambitious women. And what their roles are or aren't. And where they live. And what they should be doing. And all of these things. What is the story that women like Jesse should take from her life, you think?

[00:43:19] Well, she felt at that time. And a lot of it were the restrictions. She felt that she couldn't have it all. And I think women still struggle with that. I think women still struggle. Like can I have it all? Can I have the career? Can I have the family? Can I have the travel? And I think what people need to do is to take what works for them. And not compare themselves to anyone else.

[00:43:45] I think part of Jesse's ambition, at least in my story, the way I saw it, was her mother. Who had this love for languages. And would have loved to have traveled. And would have loved to have been a writer. And would have loved to have been all of that. The way Jesse saw it was all those children she had kept her in one place. And Jesse was like, I'm not doing that. I'm going down this route.

[00:44:10] And Jesse always saw her mother as having regrets. And then Jesse and her mother have that discussion in the restaurant one day. Where her mother says, I don't have regrets. Because yes, would I have liked to have been traveling to Europe? Would I have liked to have been doing what you're doing now? Yes. But then I wouldn't have the love that I have. And she's like, I want this love that I have.

[00:44:35] So one of the things I loved about that scene is that women make their own choices. I think that's what I want women to take from this. Whatever choice you make, do it for you. Mm-hmm. And again, so many echoes from then to now about how doors that should be open are not to Black people, Black women specifically, in terms of this book.

[00:45:02] And how hard we all have to work to take the next step forward. Even as we've discussed with your own journey of having to prove yourself again. Again, again, again and again and again. And even though Harlem Rhapsody will come out as my first solo historical novel, and even though it will do well, there will be another hurdle I'll have to jump. And that's okay because that's just what we do.

[00:45:30] And maybe it's not okay, but our ancestors had to do it. My parents had to do it. And so I have to do it. And I want to be a good example for my daughter and my granddaughter and my son-in-love. I want to be examples for them that you don't sit down. You just, we have to be, my mother told me I had to be three times better just to be considered equal. Mm-hmm. So let me just go on and be three times better.

[00:45:59] How has Jesse's story strengthened you personally and artistically? I think this is the book that stretched me artistically. Because I was writing it myself. I wanted it to be my story and my view of Jesse. I read every crisis from 1919 to 1925. I read every single one. So I got the language because people were saying, oh my gosh, Victoria, you, you know, I got the language of the time.

[00:46:27] I got what they were wearing. That's where I found out about W.E.B.'s travels. That's where I found out about Jesse's love for languages. That's where I found out about that great speech that she made that made her an international star. What I found out about Jesse is just her persistence, her tenacity, and her fortitude.

[00:46:55] And so even as I face this thing about the debut, I think about what she's faced. Okay. I got, I can do it because she did it. After she had discovered all of those writers, after she had increased subscriptions at the crisis, after the crisis was known by black and white all over this country, when she left, she couldn't get another job in publishing.

[00:47:18] And so my little challenge here of having to prove myself again, it's just a little challenge. If she can do it, I can do it. Yes, ma'am. And so my final question for you today is, what would you like readers to take away from this book? I want people to know that the literary movement that we stand on, all of us as readers and

[00:47:45] writers, was started by one woman, a black woman, and her name was Jessie Redmond Fawcett. I shade, I shade. Big thank you to Victoria Christopher Murray for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow her on the socials at Victoria Christopher Murray on Instagram. And make sure you check out her latest novel, Harlem Rhapsody. It's out now from Berkeley. And you can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using

[00:48:15] code BLACKPUB at checkout. And that's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at blackandpublished, and that's B-L-K-andpublished. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Victoria about the latter years of Jessie's life, including her marriage. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:48:45] I'll highlight y'all next week when our guest will be Jason Reynolds, author of 24 Seconds From Now, A Love Story. The idea around all of it was really scary from the jump. All right, yo, you're going to write about teenage sex and teenage sort of sexual relationships. Even though this doesn't scare me in my real life, on the page, it's kind of a complicated thing because I'm not a teenager. And it's really easy to toe the line between writing something that is responsible and

[00:49:14] writing child pornography. And I'm not interested in writing child pornography, right? That's not my jam. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode.

[00:49:44] And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.