The Power of Belief with Iris Mwanza

[00:00:00] The legal system is not fair. It is not just. And it treats people very differently. The legal system supports the status quo, supports the systems of power to the detriment and disadvantage of vulnerable people. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[00:00:24] Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Iris Mwanza, author of the novel The Lion's Den. It's a thriller featuring a young lawyer fighting for justice in the case of a queer teen that has her going up against every oppressive system you can imagine. From the president and police to her priest and the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

[00:00:51] There is conservatism and this also is one of the big drivers of homophobia. That the church continues to be very dogmatic and even when the Pope deviated slightly, there was an outcry and particularly amongst cardinals and priests in Africa.

[00:01:13] Iris is a Zambian American. She started her career as an attorney, but currently serves as the deputy director of the Women in Leadership Team at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. She explains why she's more intrigued about exploring what the law could and should be versus what it actually is. Plus, the newspaper story that stayed with her for 30 years that inspired her novel. And why she believes authors must write something that matters.

[00:01:43] That and more is next when Black & Published continues. All right, so then Iris, let's jump in. When did you know that you were a writer? I think that we are all creatives. You know, if you think back to the ancient caves, people were doing what they could with pigments and developing art.

[00:02:13] And so I always thought I had a creative part of me, but I don't think I really recognized it until very late. So I started my career as a lawyer. So I was writing legal briefs. I spent an inordinate amount of time in universities. So I was writing different dissertations and theses and essays and all the things you have to do before they'll give you a degree.

[00:02:39] So I always felt that I could write, but it was much, much later when I really began to think of myself as potentially a writer. And it's such a strange thing because we almost need external validation, right? Even as I was drafting this novel, I never thought of myself as a writer until I sold the book, which is ridiculous.

[00:03:03] Now that I think back, it's like, well, I was a writer as soon as I put pen to paper or started tapping on my computer. So I know there are a lot of aspiring writers out there. And so I think it's important to recognize our own creative juices, ambitions, hopes and dreams. But it really starts with putting it, putting it down, getting it down, having that.

[00:03:29] I don't know if you call it self-confidence, determination, perseverance, everything it takes to write a book. But I think self-belief is the first thing that happens before. So long answer to a short question. I do want to touch on what you said about the tension between self-belief and validation. But we've had a lot of lawyering writers on the show.

[00:03:49] And so I wonder, is there something that you found unfulfilling about the law that led you to then want to write a creative legal thriller where you could bend the whims and wills of the characters to your own world, even though you're still writing within a contemporary context? I think that's a good way of phrasing the question. I don't know if I thought about it in that way.

[00:04:15] And I have had a sort of long, meandering career and journey since I left the legal profession. But I've always been intrigued by what the law could and should be versus what it is and how legal systems actually work and how they, and I think this is universal. And that is something that, yeah, I feel strongly about. I feel angry about.

[00:04:43] But it is something that we see in almost every country. The legal system supports the status quo, supports the systems of power to the detriment and disadvantage of vulnerable people. And so that was one of the themes that I really wanted to capture in the story and in the book.

[00:05:04] And my hope is that even though this book is set in Zambia, in Africa, people will see and understand that universal unfairness and the real challenges of discrimination and how it works to keep people down. And how many obstacles you have to get through to actually get justice if you are not a person of means.

[00:05:29] Okay. And so in talking about how the law maintains the status quo, you note, and I believe it's your author's note in the novel, that your inspiration for Lion's Den was an article from the early 90s that you read in Zambia. Can you talk about that case and why it stayed with you all these years?

[00:05:51] Sure. So the story that I read in the article described a young boy walking through the market square wearing a dress. And upon seeing this boy, a mob set upon him, beat him up very badly. At least the article describes him as a him, beats him up very badly. But what stayed with me was there was no sympathy. There was no empathy.

[00:06:20] The article completely and utterly blamed the kid, and it was a kid, for provoking the mob. And that's what stuck with me. I was wondering and questioning who in that market square would have been a defender. Why was there no one who stood up and said, hey, this is wrong. You don't attack a kid for nothing.

[00:06:46] Doing something that is perfectly within his or her, their right to do. Just walking through a square, minding their business. Why was there nobody who would defend this kid, protect this kid, even in an article, provide a more balanced view, or say anything at all, apart from keep blame upon a blameless child?

[00:07:11] And so that was the beginning and the seed of the character Grace. Because Grace, in her DNA, in her bones, she is a defender and a protector of others. She is a defender, even though, and maybe it is because she has suffered extreme discrimination herself. She's from a poor background. She's from a rural background. She's young. She's a woman. And she's just out of law school. She's a rookie.

[00:07:42] And she doesn't let that get in the way of what her mission is in life, which is to protect, defend, and fight for justice. And she sees human rights as universal, as I do. And I really feel like the systems that oppress use a divide and conquer in the people who are discriminated and oppressed.

[00:08:05] And I think there's a real opportunity for us to really understand what is happening, why this is happening, who is encouraging this division. And it's because it keeps us weak. It keeps us weak if we're able to be divided and if we're fighting amongst ourselves. And it's a distraction. And if we really hold on to the pillar of human rights as universal, I think it changes things. And it really opens up the opportunity.

[00:08:34] And that's how Grace sees the world. She sees Bessie, who is the other protagonist in the story, who is the queer teen who has been thrown in prison for crimes against the order of nature, which is the Zambian penal code that criminalizes same-sex relations. She sees his fight as her own fight, her fight for justice. And that is really driving her throughout the story. And she sees herself.

[00:09:03] She actually sees herself in this character, Bessie, because she sees another oppressed person who is very vulnerable. What was the writing process like of actually crafting the story of Grace, her background, her idealism, and then the rigidity of the systems and structures of the Zambian law that you cite in the novel? Well, it was a very long process.

[00:09:31] It took me nine years from beginning to publication to get everything down on paper. But I think that's part of the writing process. It takes a while to find the story, to find the characters. This is a thriller. So for me, developing a plot, which I thought would be interesting and gripping and take the reader on a wild ride from beginning to end, while also talking about deeply important issues.

[00:10:01] So I think it's an interesting journey and slightly different for everybody, but such a worthwhile journey. And really important to embrace the difficulty and the challenges and the writer's block and then the moments of inspiration. And I tell a lot of folks that once you put in the work, the characters start to talk to you. The characters start to exist almost as if they're in their own world, but they will be telling you what's going to happen.

[00:10:30] What did you learn about yourself over the course of those nine years? I try to put myself in every character. So we've talked a little bit about two characters. There are a lot of different characters in the book and some are allies and some are foes. And even the individuals who I felt were not good people. I wanted to make sure that they came across as authentic people. And so I had to think about what is their backstory?

[00:10:59] What is the reasoning behind their action? What are their motivations? And I felt like if I could understand that, and that requires an investigation and exploration of your own interior, right? Some of your own darker thoughts, maybe things that you've done in your past that you're not so proud of. Really try to bind that and say, why would somebody do this?

[00:11:28] And I'll give you a really good example from the book. So Grace's mother tries to marry her off to the chief in the village. And Grace obviously is appalled. She wants to go to law school. She wants to be a lawyer. But her mom does not see it. They are very poor. They are very hungry. They have suffered from starvation.

[00:11:52] And the mother sees this as an opportunity to get out of poverty quickly, like now, like yesterday. And she's looking at it from the point of view of, we are hungry now. We are starving now. We don't have money for food, much less university. So what Grace is talking about is a pipe dream.

[00:12:15] And so I wanted to really bring the reality of why a family, any family, would make a choice like that. Child marriage is real. It happened here in Zambia. It happens all over Africa. It happens in the United States. So I wanted to really, as heinous as I find it, I wanted to understand a little bit how anybody can come to this decision.

[00:12:44] And so through Grace's mom, I was able to explore that a little bit and try to bring a bit of empathy to how these things could possibly happen. And so that's how I tried to approach each of the characters with understanding and compassion, even though I disagree 100% with their decision making. Grace finds this the ultimate betrayal.

[00:13:12] And Grace struggles throughout the story with forgiveness of her mother. And ultimately, she never does forgive her mother. She never forgives her mother, but she continues to support her mother in a way that I think her mother thought could only come from her being married to the chief. And so much of, I realize now as you have been speaking, so much of this story hinges on the power of belief. There's the unbelief of Grace's mother and her own child.

[00:13:43] Grace's extreme, almost to the point of delusion, belief in herself, even though it came, it happened for her. Like, there's something, as the kids say, very delulu about, you know, a poor girl from the country thinking that she can go to university and then go to law school and get a job and be wearing these high-powered suits and then work in pro bono cases, defending the defenseless. There's something real delulu about that, but she believes and she made it.

[00:14:10] And then I think the same goes, as you've been talking and sharing some of your own personal story, your own belief in yourself, in your work, in the flaws that you've seen in the law and how you had to have self-belief to even realize this dream as a writer to pin the novel that we now have as Lion's Den. But then you also mentioned that there is the need for validation.

[00:14:34] So I want to shift the conversation and start talking about, like, the publishing journey, because once you've finished the novel, you then had to try to become validated before it could even become a book. What was that like for you? I think it's important to validate yourself first. I know a lot of brilliant writers who have been rejected multiple times and ultimately still are not published.

[00:15:01] And so I think it's really important not to personalize rejection from publishing houses because they are looking for who knows what, who knows when. And sometimes I feel like the planets really have to align for anyone to get published. It is difficult.

[00:15:21] And ultimately, for me, I have a couple of really good friends who are writers, and one of them introduced me to her agent. And I was really lucky because through that, they actually looked at the manuscript. And my agent, Ian Bonaparte, told me, we basically have one shot.

[00:15:43] So you put the book out to publishing houses and editors who you think might be interested, and there's a two-week period in which a publishing house will bid for your book or not. And I was like, well, okay, if they don't, then we just send it to them again. Once they have rejected you as a writer, it's that much harder because they get so many manuscripts.

[00:16:07] So it's pretty nerve-wracking, those two weeks, because you're like, well, am I going to get an offer or am I not going to get an offer? And thankfully, it worked out. And Graydon House, which is an imprint of HarperCollins, picked up the book in the U.S. And then a few months later in the U.K., Cannon Gage picked up the book as well.

[00:16:31] And so a couple of things that I'm picking up on is that talking about the timing of it, we had a guest in season one, Dontiel W. Moniz, who said a lot of publishing and getting an agent and a publisher is not so much the quality of the work, but it's luck, timing, and opportunity. So that is one thing. But I'm curious by something that you said earlier on in this conversation about publishing is that you first have to validate yourself. I want to know, how do you validate yourself?

[00:17:00] What did that look like in practice for you? Because I think there are a lot of writers or readers who are wannabe writers who are listening, who are like, what does that mean? Like, how do you do that? Like, when you are facing mountains of rejection. I think you have to keep going. I think you have to have friends. I mean, for me, my husband, David, is the biggest cheerleader. He's read many versions. And he's always like, oh, this is so good.

[00:17:29] Even when I know it's not that great. So you need the people in your life who are going to be the champions, who just keep on encouraging you. But I think most books that get published, especially the first, get a lot of rejections. And so I think it's just understanding from the get-go. I am going to get rejected, and that's okay.

[00:17:51] It just means I haven't gotten my beautiful project into the hands of the right person, who actually is going to take care of my manuscript as an editor, who's going to do it justice, who sees my vision, understands. Because if they don't, it's just not going to work. Because in that nine-year period, two years of it was rewrites.

[00:18:19] And the editorial process, which I'm sure you and some of your guests have talked about it, it's a long process, but you have to have an editor that you trust. Someone who will tell you, this is damn good. This part, not so much. Or this is confusing. And you want to have that conversation with somebody who you trust, who respects you, and who you really ultimately respect as well.

[00:18:46] Because they will come with a lot of experience of what the publishing world is about. And talking about being edited with care and with someone that you trust, was there any pushback that you really had to fight out? Because your novel takes place in the late 80s, early 90s, turn of the decade, in Zambia. We're also in the middle of the AIDS crisis in the sub-Saharan Africa,

[00:19:12] and the stigma around that, and the access to medication, while also truly excoriating the criminal legal system from the police officers all the way up through the high court. Was there any pushback that you received where your editor may have been like, I don't know if audiences are ready for what you're doing, even though the time period in the book and now is more than 30 years, and yet we're still facing some of those same issues.

[00:19:40] This is one of the things and one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book, even though it is based in history. This resonates. This is happening now. Zambia, for example, is still extremely homophobic. The laws criminalizing same-sex relations are still on the books. They have not been repealed. And I think the direction is going towards increased oppression and repression,

[00:20:09] as opposed to being progressive. And there are very few voices. Certainly here, I'm in Zambia right now, and Zambia and Africa in a lot of, and also in the U.S., you see and you hear in many, many states, homophobia is strong and powerful. Transphobia, it continues. And it makes life not just difficult,

[00:20:33] but dangerous for a lot of citizens who have and should have the human rights of every single individual. I really think it was important to me to talk about something, even though it was historical, that would resonate for today. And one of the conversations that I had with the U.S. publisher and editorial team was around whether Bessie was trans or not,

[00:21:02] and how I had essentially written the book from the point of view of grace at the time when the book was written. And so the language of trans, certainly at that time, but even now in this present time in Zambia, is pretty much non-existent, very nascent. And as I said, because of the extreme homophobia,

[00:21:27] there is a serious reluctance to have these kinds of conversations. And so I felt I could do more justice to grace as a character than to fully develop Bessie. Mm-hmm. Because I cannot know and walk through his life at that time fully, but I could see his life through grace's lens fully.

[00:21:55] And so we had a really long conversation about that. Like, how do we make sure that we are honoring Bessie, but keep that possibility in the reader's mind? The reader can read the text and decide for themselves whether they think that Bessie, certainly queer, but where in this beautiful rainbow, Bessie may exist.

[00:22:25] And so that was, I think, a really rich, engaging conversation. And so what we decided was we would leave it as it was, as I had written it through Grace's point of view, but also put that in the author's note to explain a little bit the why. Why did I make those decisions and choices? And why do I not directly express any sort of a much broader point of view?

[00:22:53] But even in your explanation, in writing it from Grace's point of view, we only see Bessie truly once in the novel in the very beginning, but then everyone in Bessie's life, including their family, refers to him as a he or a boy or him as far as identifying him. And so even if Bessie identified themselves using they, them pronouns,

[00:23:20] that's not a point of view that we get because we only are interacting with Bessie as readers for a very short amount of time. Since we are talking about the book, the challenges that you face with other readers, for all those who haven't read it or are curious about it, can you read something from The Lion's Den? And then we can go deeper into this conversation about the novel itself. The Lion's Den by Iris Mwanza is a novel set in Zambia in the late 80s and the early 90s.

[00:23:46] In a time of extreme homophobia and transphobia, the AIDS pandemic, an authoritarian government, and extreme poverty, Grace Zulu, a young attorney, takes on a pro bono case of a queer teen accused of crimes against the order of nature. But her plans for defense quickly change when her client disappears. Here's Iris. So let me just frame this a little bit.

[00:24:11] This is the first and the last time that the two main characters actually meet. And this is in the Lusaka Central Prison, where Grace goes to meet and interview her client for the very first time. The squares of light streaming into the room through the small box windows crept across the floor. What was taking so long? Grace was hungry and started to think about the fruit in her bag. Her growling stomach was audible,

[00:24:41] but she couldn't risk her client walking in as she stuffed a banana in her mouth. The room was tinged red by the setting sun, and she was about to give up and leave when Officer Lungu burst in with what appeared to be a boy and gave him a quick shove into the empty seat. Your client, Officer Lungu said, looking as pleased as if he had performed a magic trick. Grace stared at Wilbur Smolenga in shock. He was even shorter than Officer Lungu, with a twig-like neck and the thinnest arms and ankles

[00:25:11] sticking out of a stained red t-shirt and oversized prison-issue black pants. His light skin was bruised on the right side of his face, his right eye swollen shut, and one of the two front teeth that seemed too big for his mouth was badly chipped. The smell of piss and shit was so strong that Grace gagged her manners forgotten. She yanked her handkerchief from her bag to cover her nose. Hands where I can see them, Officer Lungu growled. Wilbur's placed both small hands on the table.

[00:25:38] He had black rings from handcuffs around his delicate wrists, and his hands were trembling. What happened to him? Grace shouted at Officer Lungu through her handkerchief. He resisted arrest. Looks worse than it is. Tell the nice lady that you're fine. The boy kept his head down and said nothing. He was arrested almost five weeks ago. These injuries are fresh. So you're a doctor now? The officer placed his boot against the wall and pulled his truncheon from its loop in his belt,

[00:26:08] spun it, and then returned it. Wilbur's flinched. Grace tried to control her rising anger. My name is Grace Zulu, she said to Wilbur's. I'm your lawyer and I'm here to help you. She turned to Officer Lungu. I wish to speak to my client alone. She expected the policeman to leave the room, but instead he moved closer to Wilbur's, his squat body blocking the fading light. The boy started to shiver despite the heat, and tears spilled out of his good eye. Grace handed him her handkerchief,

[00:26:37] and as he took it, their eyes met for a split second. She jolted in her seat as if an electric shock had run through her body, and for a moment she felt the full force of the boy's anguish and terror. Grace had a strong urge to hold Wilbur's, to comfort him and reassure him that she would save him from this wretched place, and everything would be all right. She even reached out to touch him, but his hands were already in his lap. Grace searched his broken face again to be certain that she didn't know him,

[00:27:05] as she tried to understand the sudden, strong instinct to protect him, that felt more primal than lawyerly. Perhaps she identified with the suffering so clear in his good eye, or perhaps it was the recognition that their lives were equally precarious, and only the thinnest invisible line put Grace on this side of the table of misfortune, and Wilbur's on the other. Grace shook off these strange sensations, reminding herself that she was there as his lawyer.

[00:27:32] She drew a sharp breath before she spoke while glaring at Officer Lungu. You have the right to speak to your lawyer in private, and you have the right to be treated with human dignity. The police have no right to beat you up. She glanced back at Wilbur's, as she said, they will answer for this. Thank you. In reading that scene, I'm immediately struck about how, from the beginning, Grace and Wilbur's Bessie

[00:28:00] are coming up against the rigidity of patriarchal systems that see them as less than and as not as deserving of dignity or respect. And so Bessie faces that being in prison, but then also because of his queer identity and the officers knowing that and having a true hatred for it. But then Grace faces it from page one, where because she's a woman, but she's in her official capacity,

[00:28:29] she's still being dismissed. Why was it that it was the marginalized voices of these characters that you wanted to speak above and beyond what the power structures were at the time? I think this is the real world. All of us, I think, particularly people of color, have experienced discrimination in what might feel like small ways or microaggressions, but are deeply painful and reflective of these profoundly flawed systems.

[00:28:58] That work against anyone who's vulnerable. Women, as particularly young women, I know through my experience, and I'm sure every woman on this planet has experienced sexual harassment in some shape or form, even violence. We know the numbers, the statistics, one in three. So we have deeply flawed systems that begin with this level of entitlement.

[00:29:26] I'm entitled to treat you as a lesser, as an other. And I think I wanted to establish that from the beginning to show that the odds are against Grace. And it starts in a small way because the policeman is, yes, he's a policeman, so he has some power, but he is not a high-ranking policeman. And even he feels that he has power over both of them, even though Grace is a lawyer.

[00:29:54] But she's young and she's new, and he can see that she is also rural. She has scarification on her face, which essentially marks her and tells Officer Lungu and others that this is a rural girl, the way that she talks. Her suit is a second-hand suit. So I wanted to show that, but that is just the beginning and symbolic and emblematic of many things to come

[00:30:22] because it's not just one person. It's the justice system, which includes the courts and the police. It's the executive, the government, the ruling elite. It is the church. Mm-hmm. It is society. Are we going to get all of that? Cultural norms. All of these can work together and conspire against vulnerable people. This book taps and talks about

[00:30:52] a lot of different systems and structures and institutions. And in under 250 pages, you have come for the government and the dictatorship. You have come for the Catholic Church. And talking about the Catholic Church specifically, and you just mentioned about Grace's scarification, and so there's a part in the book where she's explaining why she was scarred as a child on her face and on her back. It was as a measure of protection.

[00:31:20] And then we see it transform into this mythical thing where not only is it protection for her, but it's also a way for her to commune with the ancestors. And where that tension is with having indigenous spiritual traditions and that rigidity of it coming up against the Catholic Church, which is and was a colonizing force on the continent of Africa, just point blank, period. Why was it important to give voice

[00:31:49] to not only Grace's point of view and questions about the church, despite her own fate, but also that of the priest? Because there's a part where the priest starts to go off on his tangent about the crimes against nature and against God. And I was like, we didn't need this part in the book. But that is the position of the church. That was the position even more strongly in the late 80s and early 90s, but it's still the position of the church.

[00:32:18] And also it is the position of many people. And so I thought it was important to reflect that in one of the characters. He is a priest, Father Sebastian. So naturally, he believes very firmly in the doctrines of and the teachings of Catholicism. I mean, that's essentially his job and his calling. But he also rejects any notion

[00:32:46] of other types of spirituality. And for Grace, that's very illogical. I mean, in her mind, it's like either you believe in spirits and the spirit world, which includes, it should be an inclusive view, or you don't. She can understand if she's talking to an atheist and they're like, I don't believe in God. I don't believe in spirits. I don't believe in the ancestors. I don't believe in any of it. But what she has issue with and what she struggles with herself is someone who says,

[00:33:17] I choose which gods, which spirits are correct. And I get to say, this is the right way and the righteous way. That defies logic. I know. Because I was brought up in this duality. And you find that it's very common here in Zambia and many parts of Africa and many parts of the world. People don't see conflict in those two things. They are very deeply religious, but they also believe

[00:33:46] in the ancestors' spirituality. They might even believe in witchcraft. And they don't see it as conflicting. And so I really wanted to capture some of that, but also recognize that there is conservatism. And this also is one of the big drivers of homophobia, that the church continues to be very dogmatic. And even when the Pope deviated slightly, there was an outcry,

[00:34:15] and particularly amongst cardinals, and priests in Africa. They were not open to a more inclusive and expansive view. And so these are the questions that most people, at some point in their lives, will grapple with what religion is and isn't and how we can live our lives fully as human beings, but reconcile some of the things that are difficult, particularly in a modern world.

[00:34:45] And so I think that's something I struggled with. And so I really wanted that conversation to happen in a way that I felt would be real. I think it's really important to reflect the world as it is, not how we want it to be. And so then with that said, one of the things that I noticed and I wanted to know more about is the role of the government and the government's position,

[00:35:13] including the president of the country, and how all of the forces that worked as the opposition to get him elected, they have now been pushed to the side as he's become more and more dictatorial dictatorial by his own willingness and wanting to consolidate power. How does that affect the larger issues in the book of who has power and how that power is wielded

[00:35:42] to defend those who have been strategically disempowered? We know that leadership matters and it's going to set the direction one way, or in this case, a completely almost opposite direction. And KK, so Kenneth Kawunda, is a real person. He was the first president of Zambia and he was ultimately, I think he started off as a good man, very idealistic.

[00:36:11] But over time, when they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. Over time, he became more and more powerful and used that power, wielded the power until people really got to the point where they said enough is enough. Things were not going well in the economy and in the book. And I talk about the shortages of everything. That was historically true. There were shortages of everything. People were struggling

[00:36:39] and suffering immeasurably. And then you have a ruling elite that is doing well, that we have good. And leadership will chart the direction of where all the different systems are going to go. You talk about the systems of government, the judicial system, maybe less so religion, but it does have an impact on how strong or weak religious influences are going to be.

[00:37:08] Cultural practices, when we are talking in any society about changing hearts and minds, you go to the leaders, right? You go to the church, you go to folks who are trusted, and they can spread the word. They can convince folks. And so I think leadership is just critical and so important. Leaders and authoritarianism, it impacts everything. And we saw this. In the U.S., they are stronger and more robust

[00:37:38] structures against, but in countries that were the democratic institution. Yes. I mean, we thought, right? We thought. We thought. They're looking real fragile. They look at, yes, when tested. And that was a really interesting lesson. We assumed and then we learned. And apparently, a lot of folks didn't learn the lesson well enough the first time because somebody who has proven themselves to be misogynistic, racist,

[00:38:10] power hungry, a fascist, you know, corrupt. Yes, fascist. That's the best way to put it. I think others have said it so well and succinctly, fascist. And yet, here we are on the brink. As a kid, we were taught Kenneth Kawunda, president for life. You start saying these things when you're five years old. You don't even know what it means. So the indoctrination starts really young. And even in the U.S., it's happening. Yeah. And so in talking about the linkages between high government

[00:38:39] powers such as a president down to smaller governmental power such as the local police force or the prosecutor's office and things like that and talking about how your characters are always rubbing up against these systems and structures that are trying to keep the truth from getting out one but also really just keep them disenfranchised. Another system that is in the background but is not something that Grace specifically has to rub up against is that of the healthcare system and really talking

[00:39:08] about the AIDS crisis in Zambia at that time. And you have this line on page 234 where it says that death was one thing but the undignified painful leaky smelly leeching process of dying altogether another. Talking about Grace's boss one of her bosses DB but then there was also her father who died of AIDS and she recognizing the symptoms and other characters in the book being one of Bessie's friends.

[00:39:38] Why was it important for you to highlight how AIDS and HIV ravaged Zambia as it did the world and the real the nonchalance toward it unless it was like specifically in your family? Yeah, I mean I don't think I could write a book that was set in that historical moment without talking about the HIV AIDS pandemic at that time in Zambia the rates of infection were one in five

[00:40:09] so high one of the highest in the world and I just don't think that I could really write a story that was set at that time and ignore a big part of everybody's life when you're talking about one in five my family everybody's families it's literally everywhere and I think to a lesser extent having gone through another pandemic with the COVID pandemic in places where we live in Jersey City very close to New York City where before

[00:40:38] vaccination it was scary and people were dying and the health system wasn't able to cope at all and it was very sadly like a deja vu because it was so bad and it's interesting that history keeps repeating in different ways and so again even though it was a historical fact it seemed like many of these themes and many of the awful atrocities

[00:41:07] that happened then are happening again but now we all speak the language right of pandemics we all understand that wow this is super scary and it's likely to happen again and again and so that was a sort of second tier reason why I wanted to highlight it that feeling of helplessness and hopelessness when somebody has this devastating

[00:41:37] disease and just how it ravages the whole of society and affects everybody and we need to respond collectively and not try to point fingers or stigmatize because that takes us back exactly and so in touching on so many things from the AIDS crisis to the crises of faith and its vestiges within colonialism and on the continent of Africa the structural harms of the criminal legal system be it American or Zambia

[00:42:07] what do you hope that readers take from this book where in the end justice prevails in a way but it is not so much about justice but about peace giving that internal peace that one person or a family can have about okay things didn't go the way that I wanted or I hoped or that I would have liked but I'm at peace with what has happened I wanted people to be inspired by

[00:42:37] grace grace is not a person of privilege she's not a person who has had great luck in her own life she still sees a role for herself in fighting for the right thing and fighting for justice and fighting for Bessie and I think that's something that we can all do find a lane like what can I do do I may run for politics but maybe I can support or I can go

[00:43:07] out and get people to register to vote or get people to vote if I have money can I donate to good causes that's a way of contributing if I have a platform a small platform or a big platform it could be as small as the unit in your family just having conversations or it may be big as you said a lot of your audience are writers and aspiring writers write something that matters I do want this book to

[00:43:37] be entertaining it is a thriller it go through this story and root for grace and root for Bessie but also write a story about really important issues that are universal

[00:44:06] all right so now I want to switch to a speed round and a game before I let you go for the afternoon what is your favorite book I will say I books but her latest book is called Fee she only writes a memoir and it's a sad it's a sad book about grief she's

[00:44:36] lost her son and she's written essentially what is a beautiful road map through grief who was your favorite author oh Tony Tony and Tony Morrison if money were no object where would you go what would you do and where would you live I would be with my ever he is the loveliest person I have ever known and for me when we are together that is my happy place that is my

[00:45:06] home and I really don't care that much about anything else like where where I could or should be yeah no I'm just really lucky we are lucky I think he would say the same that we met each other late in life but we are trying

[00:45:54] to chaos and crisis and war and darkness that we need to find joy in the spaces that we can and what brings you peace reading books and writing is a way to find peace in a weird way because it's an escape it's an escape from the world that I'm in into a world that I can control to some degree right sometimes the book goes off in a different direction it feels like a

[00:46:24] lovely escape and so my final question for you today is when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you've left behind words matter books matter and I just like the idea that somebody will pick up the book and say huh I've learned a little bit about this country called Zambia I've learned a little bit about the legal system I've learned a little bit about a character called Grace

[00:46:54] and I think that she can transcend time and I hope I pray that we're talking about history you know now we're talking about a historical novel where the themes are still current I would love for it to be wow isn't this quaint in 2024 and 1989 and 1990 the that would be my

[00:47:24] hope but that they would also enjoy the story that they would find it a good exciting read at the end of the day think that maybe the thank you to iris mawanza for being

[00:47:54] here today on black and published you can follow iris on the socials at iris mawanza on twitter and mawanza is spelled m-w-a-n-z-a and make sure you take out iris's debut novel the lion's den out now from graden house you can get a copy of the novel from mahogany books and get 10% off

[00:48:51] that's author of the memoir written in the waters a memoir of history home and belonging i got to a place where i really got on a deep level that africa is a continent with 54 countries like there's only a way that western colonizers came in and saw brown and just decided it was all the same and i realized

[00:49:20] that my motives were different my connection was different and yet i was doing something similar that the colonizers were doing that's next week on black and published i'll talk to you then peace what's going on family this is derrick young and ramanda young owners of both mahogany books and the mahogany books podcast network we really want to thank each and

[00:49:50] every one of you for listening and we truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for black books and we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future thank you