The Intimacy of Black Boys with Kiese Laymon & Alexis Franklin

[00:00:00] Hey Black and Published family, it's Nikesha. I want to say thank you for rocking with me these last few years. Over the course of these five seasons, I've shared with you the journeys of countless writers, including myself. I've told you about starting out as a self-published author and when my first nonfiction book came out in 2022. I have a new novel coming out in January entitled The Seven Daughters of Dupree. The story is a generational epic about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations,

[00:00:29] told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. And it's available for pre-order now, everywhere you get your books. I am beyond excited for this novel. It is my first big five book, more on that later. And I'd like to make it a success and I need your help to do that. If you can, please consider pre-ordering The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. Now let's get to the episode.

[00:01:00] What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guests are best-selling author and MacArthur genius, Kiese Lehman. I felt loved in my writing and in the art of ribbon and I still do. And the self-taught illustrative visionary, Alexis Franklin.

[00:01:26] A blurb for my work is just like exploring the world and maintaining its dignity. Kiese and Alexis collaborated on the new picture book, City Summer, Country Summer. It's a story about what an up north city kid goes down south to visit his country cousins for the summer. For Alexis, the project was a space for imagination and freedom with only two real requests. The direction was, we want the boys, maybe like different hairstyles for them so they can be distinct.

[00:01:55] And Kiese wants to make sure there's an okra dish in the book. You got it. And I was like, what? It's like, so an okra dish, 32 pages, and I'm just, I'm just out here. For Kiese, this picture book was an outgrowth of a prose poem that allowed him to further explore the themes of Black abundance and the difference between safety and safeness.

[00:02:16] I just wanted to distinguish between the safeness that I think we can all share with each other and with young people and the safety that we all deserve from these, like, governments that, like, govern us. You know what I mean? Like, governments are never going to be invested in safeness, but there are, like, non-negotiables that should be there for every human being, I think, on this earth. Though the medium for this message on Black boyhood is a picture book, Kiese and Alexis are adamant the book is for all ages.

[00:02:46] How they were able to explore in their own ways what intimacy looks like between young Black boys. Plus, how this story puts the harmful narrative of Paws No Homo on notice. And what they've been able to give schoolchildren across the country by honoring the child in all of us. That and more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:03:16] First question is for both of you. I'll start with Alexis. When did you know that you were an artist? That could have such a long answer, but the short answer, I guess, it, like, runs in my family, kind of. I didn't get to meet him, but I'm told my grandfather could draw, my mother's sister can draw, and my mom could draw. And throughout our childhood, me and my little brother, she would draw, like, our favorite cartoons on our binders for school. And, like, we had a little, like, dry erase marker, like, bunch table.

[00:03:46] And she'd draw our Toy Story characters and things like that. And any request, she'd figure out how to, like, draw it. And so, I think around five, I'd been raised around this so much that I was like, I want to draw my own characters. And, you know, I would pause the little DVR, and I'd get my little copy paper. Oh, I ran through a copy paper, my poor parents, and a pencil. And I would just be at the TV, and I'd be, you know, drawing. And I just, I literally never stopped.

[00:04:13] So I knew, like, that was the one thing that I knew I wanted to do. I didn't even know how I was going to make money for it. Like, this has been such a blessing. But, yeah, I just never stopped. All right. And Kiese, when did you know that you were a writer? Oh, I knew I was a writer. It's a bad answer. But when I made enough money from my writing to buy my own computer. I was a 26-year-old professor at Vassar College when that happened. But, you know why?

[00:04:42] Partially it was because I grew up with people who could draw. And so for, like, in Mississippi, it was like, you know, you had people who were being MCs and stuff. But other than rapping, it was like, we only considered real artists people who could draw. And I couldn't draw. So I was writing rhymes. I was writing what I considered poems. And in school, they didn't really encourage you to write creatively. But I was always writing something. And then when I finally, like, made enough money to buy my own, like, instrument. And for me, that's the computer. That's when I was like, oh, okay, you might be a writer now. I hate that answer, but that's true. Yeah.

[00:05:13] No, it's interesting because I've had a couple conversations where some people have differentiated between being a writer and being an author or some not feeling they can claim the title writer because folklore as a storyteller feels more authentic. Right. But I think the idea is really tied to how closely you align your art to capitalism. Yep. And so for you, Alexis, doing this work has always been something that you knew you could do and wanted to do. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:44] How did that knowing carry you to make it something that you would do professionally? When I was 16, I got my first smartphone. And with that comes the ability to get social media, to share things, all the stuff. So early on, I would post my work. I would just, like, anywhere I could, I would just post it. And I think it was more for, like, a documentation for myself is how I was on the surface level feeling it.

[00:06:08] But that decision absolutely set me up for what I am living right now because I didn't even know what I was doing, but I was, like, making a portfolio. I was making a history online of, like, everything I was doing. And it stayed. It stuck with people I didn't even know. I went to art college for, like, a year and a half. I didn't want to be there anymore. I dropped out. And the spring break that I didn't return, like, I was on spring break and I was, like, I'm happier. I don't want to go back. I got an email from a client. And they were, like, we've seen your work.

[00:06:38] And I was, like, what work? Like, what do you mean? Like, I wasn't even aware that I was uploading my work onto portfolio sites. I thought they were just, like, oh, share your work. Like, share your artwork. Like, you know, they were legit portfolio sites. I was putting myself out there. I didn't know it. By accident. Yeah, by accident. Straight up by accident. And so I told the guy I was terrified. And I was like, I'm in college and I don't know what I'm doing. And he was like, I got you. They probably took advantage of me. I was probably cheaper, you know.

[00:07:05] But I think about him all the time because he definitely, he started it. It was the hardest job I've ever had. But baptized by fire, I wouldn't take it back. And I just kept getting clients from there because, you know, that's when I realized, like I said earlier, I didn't know how I would make money from it. But it came to me because I was just being prolific with my work. I had nothing else to do. I was just cranking stuff out and putting it on line. And so for you, Kiesi, then being able to buy a computer and have that marker and milestone for yourself, you have continued.

[00:07:35] Has there been any point along your journey where you have felt comfort in the craft of writing and not just as a vocation? Oh, absolutely. Like, I mean, I felt comfortable in my craft before I felt like I was a writer. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, the only comfort I felt like, you know, I was like body dysmorphic. I played basketball in college. The mirror was scary. You know what I mean? I felt loved in my writing and in the art of revision.

[00:08:04] And I still do. Right. Like, I feel even though now it's kind of difficult because every time I, it's hard to get just lost in the art because I'm always thinking ironically about whether or not I should try to sell what I'm making. But like just being lost in like the craft of writing. I mean, that's, that's what people call heaven to me. And it gets a little more difficult once you start selling writing because I'm always like, damn, like, am I, am I actually exploring on, you know, my own terms and or am I trying to sell this?

[00:08:34] But, you know, writing is still honestly like the place I feel safe. You know, writing and like when my grandmama was alive, like, you know, when she was watching me or looking at me, those are the only two places I really feel safe even today. Alexis and you sharing your work for hire by accident. Yeah. Right. And then being baptized by fire through different clients.

[00:08:58] Has that been freeing for you to continue to create and pursue your artistic endeavors on your own accord? Or is it now just about making sure that you have something out there to feed the beast? Like, yes, he was saying like feeding the industry. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I feel like if I ought to mark this chapter in my life, that's the question. I think it's very interesting right now with social media and like, you know, you can have a website, you can have a portfolio.

[00:09:24] But for some industries, if your Instagram isn't on point, you're in trouble. And so naturally, my being in its natural state kind of resists social media. So when I was putting my artwork out there, I wasn't trying to be social. The beast that is social media scares the hell out of me, quite honestly. Like, I don't want it, but I kind of need it.

[00:09:48] And so I definitely am in a season literally currently of trying to get back to like watching TV, being inspired by something on the TV, pausing it and just drawing just to draw. Like, I'm trying to get back to you only got to post this. Like, just draw it. Like, there's a fear in me that if I don't post enough, I won't be able to feed myself, you know, which might not even be true. And in some aspects, it might. So it's definitely a delicate dance.

[00:10:15] I saw a tweet or something that was like, we're in the F around part of finding out. Like, we don't know yet. This is a lot of experimentation. We got so much stuff going on. And that's what I feel like. Like, I'm just, I am swirling in the F around part of like, what am I? What is my place in this beast? Because I kind of like, you know, talking about capitalism, all the things like you want to resist all this stuff, but like you just buckle down and cross your arms. You don't get left.

[00:10:43] And if you're trying to make a profession out of it, you know, so I'm trying to figure out where I am, where I fit and where, you know, I can within reason operate within the beast because I do find such a joy in what I do. Was illustrating City Summer, Country Summer a way for you to get back to what is it? It is that you love without the corporate pressure. Yeah. So illustrating City Summer, Country Summer was like an experience I've never had. I've done book covers, but I've never been inside a book.

[00:11:13] And this is, you know, this is 50-50, me and Kiese the entire time. And so when I was approached for it, usually every client is like, I want this character. We're thinking this, we're thinking this, whatever, whatever. And the amount of freedom that this team gave me was initially scary. I believe that the direction was, we want the boys, maybe like different hairstyles for them so they can be distinct. And Kiese wants to make sure there's an okra dish in the book. You got it. And I was like, what?

[00:11:44] Like, so an okra dish, 32 pages, and I'm just out here. So I literally had to go like pull out my design bag. I had to like, you know, they were like, we want some full page illustrations, some spot illustrations, not everything has to be a full, you know, two page illustration. And that was pretty much the only direction I was given. So in a way, though that was scary, I realized that fear only came from how boxed in I am and how led I am from my other clients. Like, I don't get that type of freedom.

[00:12:13] So I just like dove in and was like, girl, like, when are you ever going to get this type of freedom again? Have fun. Like, just figure it out. And so that fear was just a level of discomfort because I realized I had been lulled into a sense of like, oh, they're going to hold my hand. And they were like, no, we're not. You're going to have to figure it out. And they were so gracious. And like I said, when I got to join Kiese on one of his book tour stops, the first draft I sent them of the characters, everybody was like, yep, no notes. And I was like, that also has never happened. So it was just like, it kept happening.

[00:12:42] I was so happy. So though it was scary, I'm forever grateful for that experience. Kiese, did you know Alexis prior to the collaboration on the book? Or were you able to pick your list of illustrators? Like, how did this come together? I knew Alexis's work from Instagram. But initially there was some other person that the press suggested we go with. And then this person who was in Jamaica, I was a little more hands-on with that person because they were trying to make the book be placed in Jamaica. And I was like, I love Jamaica, but like, this is Mississippi.

[00:13:12] And then when that person couldn't do it and they let me look at like 40 different artists, I saw Alexis and shit and I was like, that's who I want. Like, and that's who I want to ask because I couldn't even believe that that person would say yes. And then when Alexis said yes, what? Fam, there wasn't no way I was going to get in the way of like, you know, because again, to me, we didn't even talk about this in Houston. But like the art that I was most drawn to as a kid beyond like illustrations and cartoons were like my friends who could draw.

[00:13:42] Like those are the only people we consider real artists. And so like, I just have such reverence for like people who can make like visual art and just Alexis is just too good at the shit. So I just wanted Alexis to come in there and feel like a collaborator. But also I just wanted the words to kind of sort of just be a guide for whatever Alexis to come up with. And I knew it was going to be dope, honestly, but I had no, no, no, no idea it was going to be as dope as it was. Like, no clue. Like, I still don't know how she did that shit.

[00:14:11] Like, honestly, you know, I'm talking about the boys. I'm talking about the faces, you know, like, you know, that one was like New York didn't smile. Like, you know, like my grandma, my house, like the lushness of it, that garden. Come on, fam. Like I was, I had no idea, but I knew it was going to be dope. I knew it was going to be dope. I want to ask, what's the significance of the okra dish? Well, my grandmama just loved okra. You know what I'm saying? Like, my grandmama was like an okra fiend. You know what I'm saying? Fried okra, pickled okra, boiled okra.

[00:14:39] And the thing was like, she would always be pushing that okra on me so strong, but I only liked the fried okra. You know what I mean? So we started making this book when my granny was, you know, dying. And it was just like, I was just sort of obsessed with trying to honor her. And that was her favorite vegetable. So Alexis, I'm hearing this high praise of how you were able to honor someone that I'm assuming you never had the chance to meet and capture a piece of PSA's heart and home

[00:15:06] in a way that probably not many other artists could. How did you do it? Right. I think that it feels serendipitous almost because throughout my life, I have such a passion for different experiences. I'll never experience growing up in Mississippi. I grew up in the city of Dallas. So, you know, I don't know so many things and it's impossible to experience everything.

[00:15:32] And I think art was one of my ways of being able to at least just get a taste of some of that stuff. When you draw, you got to spend like two or three hours with it. So like it was my form of studying. It was my form of like really getting in there and figuring out, you know, what makes this thing tick? Like a reverse engineer almost to draw it. And so through that, like even in my personal work, I paint all kinds of people. It's like my version of traveling almost of like just figuring out what is my take on,

[00:16:01] you know, somebody who lives in Portland that I ain't never seen before, you know, got all these tattoos, whatever. I'm not that type of person, you know. So I think it's so funny that like Kese and his team approached me for this and, you know, Mississippi, rural Mississippi, these boys in the woods, that was not my childhood. But like I felt already prepared to dive into a scene like that because that's just been my obsession is just that's why I do art is to look at different kinds of lives and spend time with them.

[00:16:30] It's a very intimate process for me. A blurb for my work is just like exploring the world and maintaining its dignity. And so keeping that integrity, keeping that as true to life as I can, really doing my research. And they provided me actually with the address of Kese's grandmother's like street. So I'm in Google Maps. I'm like zooming through the actual place that this is set and trying to immerse myself as much as I possibly can before I even drew anything. And that informed the work as much as it could. I appreciate that level of care.

[00:17:00] Like that is so integral to the story. I know we're talking about the scenery, but I want to know, Kese, when did you have the idea to do a children's picture book after, you know, all of the major success of heavy re-releasing your very first novel and your essay collection? And then it's like you completely, for me, it was like, oh, we're kids now. I'm still going to buy it. You're still going to read it. So like, what was the generative process for you to do that? Yeah.

[00:17:28] You know, I write about kids in all my other books. Everything I've written, I write about kids. I just sort of write about maybe like the darker side of childhood. And so again, it's this photographer, Andre Wagner, who's incredible at taking these photographs of these white boys in New York City. And the New York Times was like, can you write a complimentary essay for it? This was 2020. And then I was like, I want to write a prose poem. And I didn't think it was going to work.

[00:17:55] And then I wrote this prose poem about how I could get one of those kids to Mississippi. And the whole point was trying to get them into that garden to play Marco Polo. So and then, you know, we got lucky in that Namrata, you know, the editor in chief over there sent me sort of like a mock up of what a book could look like. And just like seeing it like that, I was like, oh, shit, that's a book. You know what I'm saying? And then she was like, OK, now I want you to play with the words of Ben. And then I was able to play.

[00:18:24] So that's how it all got to me. Like Namrata and Jasmine, the art director over there, they deserve like all the credit of like organically seeing something worthwhile in that essay, in that prose poem. And then having the vision to see it into a book form. And seeing the possibility of what your language could be for a young audience, even though I don't know if Long Division is categorized as a YA novel, but I feel like if you go either way and read it, adults read YA anyway.

[00:18:52] So yeah, it's just about the work. That's right. Was it on your bingo card to ever do something specifically for young children? The story of Long Division getting made is its own like podcast. But I tried to initially sell that book as a YA book, but they were like, this is not YA. And I was like, OK, let me do something else with it. But I was always trying to write to young people. I was always trying to write young adults.

[00:19:18] Even in my most adult fiction, I always say that I'm writing young adult work for adults because I believe adults have young adults in them. You know what I'm saying? But this was really interesting because the boys that I photographed or initially sent to me, those boys were like between, you know, 10 and 13. So then when they brought to me the idea, I was like, huh, how do I make this for five-year-olds? And then they were like, you don't. The actual artist does, right? Like trust the art. And I was like, say let's stand.

[00:19:48] Let me stand back. I'm just learning a lot more about the form, but I just realized the art is what pulls people through, especially young people. Very much so. Like my son is 10. He looks a little bit like New York. And so he needed another book to read for his school reading law. I was like, go get the book. And I was like, put the boys on the cover. And I was like, he read it and he was like, I was like, what did you think? He was like, good. And I'm like, all right. And there's something.

[00:20:15] But I also think that there's something to say about seeing themselves, especially young Black boys, seeing themselves in the pages of a book full color. Was that a thought for you, Alexis, in creating this imagery in these boys and capturing their facial expressions and their feelings in their facial expressions to allow other young Black boys to see themselves as well? Oh, for sure. When I was first drafting the characters, even Mama Lara and Grandmama, who were also in

[00:20:44] the book, I was looking for reference. Like I was Googling like little young Black actors right now. And who's already representing these boys well? And taking a bunch of them and seeing which features, you know, are the most, I guess, just felt like home to me because I was raised around pretty much all boys. I had some older cousins who were girls. They didn't want to do with me. They're like 12 years older than me. So I was raised around boys.

[00:21:09] And so, you know, before I even sent it off to Kiese and the team, I was like, do I see my boys in this? Do I see my cousins? Do I see my brothers? Can it evoke that feeling in me? And that's when I knew I could send it off when I had them. So I made sure that even I got an emotional response from the boys because I think representation is such, that's one of my favorite things about art and such a lost opportunity in a lot of art. It's a value that isn't upheld enough in media arts.

[00:21:37] And so that I just worked to be like, I want my portfolio to look like the world. I just want it to be an explosion of just indignity in every single person. So when I was drafting them, I was just like, does this feel like my little cousin? Does this feel like my big cousin? I came up with the third character. Nobody asked me to do that. The little boy in the yellow shirt. I love it. I made him up when I sent it off. I was like, I know you asked for Grandmama, Mama Lara, New York and country. But I got this other little boy who's country's little brother.

[00:22:06] And he was just a nod to my little brother. That's just what my little brother looks like. So and I thought it would be cute if there were three of them, you know, especially when New York has that moment. It's a little more intimidating when you got two on one in the woods versus just one on one, you know. So I thought about that. And usually when you go down south to visit your cousins, they team up on you. Exactly. They all there. We can get that dynamic. I was raised around them. I know how this works. There's got to be two on one at some point. I love it. This is a question for both of you. And I'll start with PSA.

[00:22:35] Why is it important for you to write and for you, Alexis, illustrate your home life, your upbringing and the experience of that into your work and bring those points of view to a mass audience? I mean, it's important for me because in my other like grown writing, I try to bring a lot of names from people in my life. Like, you know, in Mississippi, there are a lot of people named Crumps. So there's a lot of Crumps in my book.

[00:23:03] Or, you know, I went to school with Berica, Hassanadi, Madra, Latham, you know, like in KSA, like all of these names are names you would never see in a book unless you write the book. And so like I just wanted to people books with like the actual like, you know, melodic names that we are given and dare the book industry to say no. Now they said no for a long time. But, you know, now that they got to say yes to me, I don't want to write about Mary. My mama named Mary, but I don't want to write about Joe. And my daddy named Joe, you know what I'm saying?

[00:23:30] But I want to write about Hassanadis and Bericas and, you know, yeah. So that's why I just think it's important to get those names and everything surrounding those names into literature because I think that can keep us alive really in the long run. I was raised, like I said, in the city and the school I went to was predominantly white. We had a good mix of kids, but like it was run by white people. It was a Christian school.

[00:23:58] And so they got to make their own rules. I had a lot of experiences in that environment that I didn't really wake up to until I was an adult. And so I think that's why I'm so passionate about dignity, because I think I have the ability now to whatever little kid or in the four walls of a school right now, they get on their phone and they search something up. I'd like to be what comes up where you, oh, I didn't know we could look like that. I didn't know we could be in that type of outfit. I didn't know we could be in this environment.

[00:24:25] And I just remember how I felt back then when not even knowing it, that lack of representation, that lack of imagery was affecting how I stood up for myself, affecting in what ways I thought I could stand up for myself. You know, the things that I hid from my white friends, something as stupid as an edge control toothbrush, because we didn't have a little fancy edge control brushes they got now. It was a dirty toothbrush. And so those experiences definitely inform me. That's why if you look at my body of work, just put all of it together.

[00:24:55] I am obsessed with Black art. I love Black art. But I also draw different types of races. And for many reasons, but chiefly because the world isn't just Black. We do have to coexist with all these other races. And to put my work up together, you know, Black, white, Hispanic, whatever, they all look like they're on the same plane. Like we're not doing this, you know? So I think that my, I think my work is just what I would like us to look like as a society. That's essentially what I'm just chasing.

[00:25:25] It's my way of just like hitting back at how other I felt when I was younger and how I don't need to be that way. It sounds to me like you're drawing all of your characters, all of your work with the same humanity that they are born with and that the world is trying to take away from that. Absolutely. Like what would it look like if that wasn't stripped? That is absolutely it for sure. Kiesa, I want to touch on something because you said, you know, there was a time when the industry would say no to you, but now they have to say yes. That is a type of power.

[00:25:54] And you wield it for your people and for your community. Do you feel a burden in that responsibility or do you like taking it on and saying because you have created this name for yourself with your work that now it is a responsibility that you enjoy to open these doors and to tell these stories and to infuse these narratives and these spaces and these names? And that's a beautiful question. I'm going to be honest with you.

[00:26:22] I feel thankful that I can help really dope people get through. But if you look at my life, I'm just whether it's, you know, academia or publishing, I'm just not one of those black people who want to go through the door and be the only black person in there. You know, like I'm coming. I'm bringing everybody. I'm bringing everybody. Now, the problem is you get a little tired. When I was like in my late 30s, it was easier to bring everybody.

[00:26:49] And now, you know, I'm always going to advocate for us to get in spaces where we already belong because of what you said about dignity, what you've been saying about dignity. But honestly, I just wish a lot of other older artists, black artists would do some of this work, too. I'm going to be honest with you. There are a lot of other people around here with juice. There are a lot of powerful people out there who could be opening up more doors for like dope people. And when they don't, that responsibility lies on those of us who will do. And I'm always going to do. I feel you. I feel you.

[00:27:19] Can you read something from the book? Because I have a whole list of questions from a picture book. And I'm ready. All right. City Summer, Country Summer, written by Kiese Layman and illustrated by Alexis Franklin, tells the story of New York, who goes down south to visit his cousins in Mississippi and their adventures in the woods around their grandmama's houses and what happens when they have to face their fears and reckon with their differences. Here's Kiese.

[00:27:50] I like boys from Mississippi, no black boys from New York. When we were young, their parents sent them down south one summer. We were as afraid of calling them beautiful as we were of calling them by their real names. We were Mississippi black boys visiting grandmama. They were New York black boys visiting mamalar. If they were Chaka, Marcus, Stefan, Akil, or Damon, we called them New York. Whether we were from Jackson, Birmingham, Memphis, Atlanta, Houston, or even California,

[00:28:19] California, they called us Country. They were quick. We were fast. They talked with their hands. We listened with our chest. Every weekday summer morning when grandmama went to work at the chicken plant, we jumped off the porch of her pink shotgun house and sprinted 20 yards to Mama Laura's tiny off-white house. Nothing separated grandmama and Mama Laura's houses other than the largest, greenest garden in Forest, Mississippi. Thank you.

[00:28:47] Reading this book and knowing my son had read it first, but being able to dive into the pages and really sit with the words. So much of your public social media writing, but also your personal writing and your writing in the industry is about the tenderness needed for all of us to have toward each other, but specifically black boys who become black men. Why do you focus so much on that necessity?

[00:29:17] Got to be deeper than this, but because I'm a black boy who grew up raised by black women and girls. You know, when I woke up Sunday mornings, I'm getting out of bed with grandmama and my mama. You know what I mean? Like we cocoa slept and I just grew up with like all black women and growing up with all black women. If you are attentive at all, you don't have to look really hard to see that.

[00:29:44] Like a lot of times, a lot of black men in their lives weren't treating them with the kind of tenderness that I would say one should treat people they purport to love. Um, and I also grew up as a black boy in these black boy communities where like we just were tender. Like, yeah, we fought and some people got to shooting, but we still love each other's touch.

[00:30:08] And I just don't see enough art like pausing to think about the importance of touch of all kinds in black communities, but specifically like with black boys and the way black boys are, you know, encouraged to touch black girls and ourselves. And so like, you know, if I'm going to make art, I want to make art that, that kind of encourages us to reconsider the power of touch and also reconsider like the way some of our touch have been abusive.

[00:30:35] Um, and you know, I was just born a black boy surrounded by lots of black girls and black women. And I just want to write what I see and what I want to see. And what I want to see is us being much more tender and caring with each other. So that's why I write it. Alexis, in rendering the images of the boys, I love the cover image, but I love the one on the inside. I think where New York has his shirt off and they're laying down in the grass and, and thinking about what Kiyose said about touch.

[00:31:03] Was that in your mind as well, just individually and, and putting these images together and creating them to have them so close together and it not be a problem that they enjoy being that close and to be loving and showing affection to one another? Oh yeah, for sure. I think beyond touch, I think the word in my head was just intimacy, whatever that looks like. Like in one of the meetings for the book, one of the team members asked me, what is my goal for the book?

[00:31:32] And I said something along the lines of for black boys specifically to fill the freedom, to enjoy the full spectrum of what it means to be human emotions, all the things. Because I think with them specifically, society is filled with men in general, but particularly with black boys. Anger is acceptable. Happiness is cool, whatever. But when it gets to those like nuanced, intimate moments, they either blow past them or they get angry that they felt them at all.

[00:31:59] And I think that so many problems in our world would be handled if, you know, there wasn't that whole no homo mentality is what I guess I call it. Because there's so much safety and clarity to be found in moments like that. And I found it myself and I think women are privy to that way more than men in general. But of course, I'm thinking about my black cousins, my black brothers that cringe at the idea of those things.

[00:32:27] And like Kiese was saying, we're all young adults, but I'm thinking of the men in my life. They're little black boys. You're all little black boys. You are. And I was so, so grateful to Kiese for even, you know, allowing this to be a space to explore that. Yeah, so there's a point in the book where country is talking about how it's almost as if their differences have disappeared, but they haven't. But the contrasts feel like safeness.

[00:32:52] And they made me think about how because of the Great Migration and even the re-migration to the South, these differences between black folk in America are pronounced, but not. Were you trying to touch on that and writing those lines? Absolutely. And I was just leaning on Audre Lorde, who always talked about the importance of our difference as much as the importance of our similarities and like leading to some sort of revolution.

[00:33:20] And yeah, like I moved from Mississippi. I kicked out of school. I went to school in Ohio and then I left at Ohio, went to Indiana. I played basketball. So I was just like always touching other black boy bodies, black man bodies. And I went to live in New York and all of those places, including Mississippi. We would swear that we different than all them other regions. And we are, particularly in the way we talk, in the way, you know, the vowel sounds that we make.

[00:33:46] But at the end of the day, fam, like I want to talk about how the difference actually creates a depthful, contrasting picture of potentially safeness and warmth. As opposed to what I think is easier to talk about how those contrasts are like so pointed and necessitate like distance. You know, that's part of that whole Paul's no homo culture. It's just like you too close to me now. Right. I mean, like, yeah, I'm not a fan. I'm right up on you. And like you different.

[00:34:16] And I'm different, but I'm right up on you, which means we're going to have to deal with some of the similarity at some point, you know. And we're going to have to deal with our differences at some point. And, you know, for better and worse, that migration pulls it all together. You distinguish between safeness and safety. What is the difference? I think safety is something that we should all be gifted from the nations and the nation states and the government that like we pay taxes to or that we are in, whether or not we pay taxes or not.

[00:34:45] Like safety, right? There should be a level of safety. We should all be having clean water. Nobody in this country should have to worry about how much food they're going to eat. All of our parents should not be worried about being kicked out of this country if they make some president mad. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a kind of safety we all deserve. Your safeness, I feel like, is much more emotional, much more bodily. And in my experience, it was much more familial. Like and there was a lack of safety for a lot of people in the 80s and 90s, but I always felt like a kind of dignity.

[00:35:13] That's really like a kind of love and dignity for myself when I was around my granny, when she was touching me or when she was looking at me. And so I just wanted to distinguish between the safeness that I think we can all share with each other and with young people and the safety that we all deserve from these like governments that like govern us. You know what I mean? Like governments are never going to be invested in safeness, but there are like non-negotiables that should be there for every human being, I think, on this earth.

[00:35:41] But I think those non-negotiables are different than the safeness we have to like create in our relationships with each other. And so then Alexis, in hearing Kiese's definition, I feel like one of the safest places in the book is the garden where they're playing Marco Polo.

[00:36:00] In creating these images and knowing it was going to be a soft place for Black boys to land, how did you evoke this lush life beyond just the landscape but of the safeness of their relationship? I think I approached this book, maybe not even fully consciously, but I definitely approached it in a way that was like, what does this garden look like to these little boys?

[00:36:28] Like through their eyes, not, you know, a garden that's as realistic as it can be. How much whimsy can I sneak into this garden? You know, I love whimsy. The juxtaposition of these realistic boy bodies in the painting surrounded by these like swirling little accoutrements or whatever, it's just a wonderful contrast to highlight. The permission for little Black boys to dream and to experience this garden.

[00:36:54] And however they want to, however grand, however silly, however colorful, however saturated, however vibrant they want to, it's there. It's theirs, you know, as long as the bottom line is love. And so I think the environment that I drew around these boys, I wanted that to be that bottom line. I think it was my way of just being like, you will always be wrapped in that safety. I love it. What have you all learned from each other in this process and collaboration?

[00:37:20] I mean, on a base level, I just learned like, I know that we're not supposed to use this word anymore, but like mastery, right? Like seeing someone else take a craft that I wish I was good at to levels inside my heart and in my head that I can only like dream up or attempt to write through, but never do it with the kind of specificity and just like wonder. So mastery.

[00:37:48] And also, I think there's a confidence that Alexis has in all of the art that I've seen her make. But to literally the choice to make another character, that's confident. Like, because it's not just you get to say, I want another character. That means you have to draw another character on damn near all these pages. And sometimes I think people talk about labor without talking about confidence. But I learned the importance of confidence.

[00:38:11] Like to see Alexis just come into this and make these words in this book like hers, that just gives me the sort of like confidence to do that in all of my art. I'm saying that because, you know, I sold a lot of books, but every time I open that white page and it's blank, that shit is daunting, fam. But I think that daunting task is what connects me to Morrison and Morrison to my cousin who's trying to write in third grade.

[00:38:36] I think like that blank page being scary and full of possibility is just something we all as artists need to sit in. And seeing Alexis fill that blank page with pointed possibility, it just gives me confidence to approach the next blank page I have to encounter with the same kind of, I think, confidence and possibility. To answer your question with Kiese, I think I have been so blown away by this man's mind.

[00:39:04] I did read Long Division and it is now one of my top favorite books. I love that book so much. And I had read, obviously read Long Division before I met him. And I was like, this guy's Citi. It's like, obviously you're writing from personal experience, but I love Citi so much. And so I remember reading through the book and being like, is he anything like Citi? We're going to have a great time because this is amazing. But through hearing him talk, the words I am hearing come out of your mouth that like, I didn't think, and maybe I'm ignorant.

[00:39:34] Maybe somebody is going to be like, well, you ain't spoken to enough black men. But like, I have not heard some of these words. Like, I have not heard. And if I have, it's been maybe one over here and one over here. Not together. Not all of them. Not the full gamut of these like revelations and these acceptances. And I think that I'm so obsessed with men just getting over that block in their brains that just makes them completely avoid intimacy. So I think it is just so beautiful, the journey you have clearly gone on.

[00:40:03] And obviously it does not shock me at all that you, it is clear that you were raised by women, by black women, that you were surrounded by them. And that you have this like innate understanding that a lot of men, you know, when they're raised, obviously fathers, black fathers are very important. But a lot of them teach like, you got to be a man, you got to suck that up, you got to, you know. And the absence of that is, I think, a beautiful thing. To shift, what does it mean to be a man? It does not mean sucking it up and pushing on.

[00:40:32] Like, you can provide for your family and still comb your daughter's hair, my God. Like, it does not have to be one or the other. You can be a full human and to have partnered with someone that is just someone who doesn't seem to be plagued by that. It's just so freeing. It's so wonderful to hear you talk. Kiese, you talk a lot about black abundance. And I could think of no more perfect embodiment than this book. Would you agree? Oh, most definitely. Most definitely.

[00:41:00] But the wonderful thing about this is that, you know, when you write like adult stuff, you kind of got to slip black abundance in. You can't have it be all. I mean, I feel like it is on every page, but you have to make it subtextual because, you know, you just can't have black abundance, black, blah, blah, blah. But like this book, because of my partner, it is black abundance on every inch of every page. Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:41:21] And for me, black abundance was different than black excellence because black abundance encouraged a lot of stuff that my family was told you can't bring to the function. You can't bring to work with you. But I'm like, OK, I understand I can't bring that to work with me. But this is part of the thing that keeps us alive. That's why so much of the book, I think, early in that book was about laughter. And so to me, like black abundance, my job is to capture it and explore it with words.

[00:41:46] But I'm actually talking about something that evades traditional uses of language. And my job as a writer is to bring that out. But sometimes you can't as well as you need to on every page of a book. And I think you need a partner who's like, well, let me help you out, fan. Let me get I got you. And and so, yeah, that's yes. I mean, we could have named this motherfucker black abundance, you know, but we could have. I know you guys have been on tour and have been visiting schools and seeing the kids.

[00:42:16] But before you have gotten their reactions, what did you what do you want readers young, old and anywhere in between to take away from this piece of beautiful work? Because Alexis, to Kiese's point, like this really could sit on my coffee table and just be on display because it's so pretty. For me, the coffee table was where Jet magazine was, Ebony magazine was, the black book was, you know what I'm saying? The Bible was and all what else was there? All of these photo albums.

[00:42:46] Right. Like so I love that this book deserves to be right next to that. All of those things on a coffee table. Like I want young people to fall into it. And I've seen it. I've been in classrooms now and I've seen them do it. But I also want old heads to fall into it, too, because we they know actually, I think, more about what those summer trips north and south meant.

[00:43:09] You know what I'm saying? So I love that you brought up the coffee table because for me, it is not a coffee table book traditionally, but it kind of is a black coffee table book in addition to being a book for young people. Kiese's words aren't necessarily dumbed down for children. I think this book can grow with a lot of the kids that get to read it for years. And so he did a really good job of like, yeah, this this word you might not know yet or this string of words might not make sense to you yet. Mom might need to, you know, explain it.

[00:43:39] But like later in life, that might hit one day, you know, like one of my favorite scenes is when New York, though Kiese doesn't name it, he's having an anxiety attack. And to me, that was obvious. There's a freedom in not naming it sometimes because some people might not have the language. Some people might be resistant. Like we said earlier, some people might get mad. So to be able to have something that visceral and an experience that a lot of people have that I think is demonized, honestly, and shouldn't be to see it on the bodies of these young boys.

[00:44:08] And to even see that like, you know, he has the anxiety attack and little C and country are like, what you doing? Like they don't hold him well in that moment. They start laughing at the boy. And that is just that's so real. That is what can happen. But on the last page, I believe, you know, New York gets there through the summer. You know, he gets to slide. He makes through the woods. It's clear that he makes it through the woods. He gets to slide down the cardboard slid.

[00:44:35] So I think that that's such a beautiful message for anyone of any age. Like you said, like, yeah, oh, this isn't for a child. No, it's for people. It's for people. It's it's big and it's very vibrant and it's got very few pages. So, yeah, children's book. But, you know, I read this on my own. Like, I think that's just it's got such an amazing message hidden in it. And I knew that before even speaking to Kiese.

[00:45:03] And now that I've met him, now that I hear what he's talking about and what's going into all these words. Oh, my gosh. Like, pick it up. I don't care what age you are. But it was so beautiful. You said they don't hold him well in that moment, but they also don't hold it against him. I think that's one of the most beautiful things about the book. And though he does have panic attacks and struggles with anxiety, it's not something to distance himself away from his cousins and away from the experiences that they are trying to get him to have while he's spending the time with them. What are you guys working on next?

[00:45:33] I won't say who it's with or whatever, but I have another thing such as City Summer, Country Summer. There's another book. And I signed that before this even was released. It's crazy because I'm like, oh, OK, yeah, I can do this. You know, and the fact that like the team, Kiese in particular, was so gracious, so kind. Not that there was necessarily needed to be handholding for me, but like the familial aspect of creating this book makes any other book after this significantly less intimidating.

[00:46:02] I got to wade through a project that is probably one of the most gruesome projects I've ever gone through because of the scale of it in general. Thirty two pages isn't a lot to read, but it's a lot to paint. So, my gosh, it was a lot. But it's funny. I felt safeness while going through this process. And I've never done something like this before.

[00:46:22] So being able to be familiar, like, you know, I don't have any bad memories tied to this book and being able to go forward with other books in a similar fashion and be like, oh, every memory I have tied to this process, this process, this next step. But, you know, the bar has been set and I know I doubt that it can be exceeded because my God. But now I know how it's supposed to go, how it can go. And I can speak into that. I'm excited for that. I'm excited.

[00:46:50] I'm finishing this book called Good God. So I'm finishing that. And, you know, Trevor Noah bought Long Division and hired me to write the film. And so I'm just revising the film and we'll see how that works right now. I am excited to see it. I am so excited for that. Oh, my goodness. Whoever is cast for City has got to be on point. You got to bring it. You got to bring it.

[00:47:19] And so my final question for you all today before we go. When you are dead and gone among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write or paint about the legacy of words and work that you've left behind? Me is he liked to share. He liked to share in every way. You know, I like to share. I like to share. Yeah, that's it. He liked to share. I think for me, it would just be.

[00:47:48] I hope that through my work, I have created a safe space to be able to see themselves, to be able to see their grandfather, their grandmother, whatever experiences that I haven't even had, but can bring that whimsy. And I think a lot of my work is mundane, but I find beauty in that mundanity. And so I like injecting that whimsy into it. I'm just like, oh, yeah, you know, dancing with my grandpa. That was a beautiful moment, you know.

[00:48:15] People being able to hark back to, like, you know, really, like, appreciating the life they lived. I hope that I've just given them that little push to remember that it can be as beautiful as it is. Big thank you to Kiesa Lehman and Alexis Franklin for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Kiesa on Instagram and threads at Kiesa Lehman. And you can follow Alexis on the same platforms at Alexis underscore art. And make sure you check out a copy of City Summer, Country Summer.

[00:48:45] It's out now from Coquilla Books. You can get a copy of the book from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published, and that's B-L-K-And Published.

[00:49:12] There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Kiesa and Alexis about the intimacy of boys with nonverbal communication and why Alexis still chose to add a character when up against the deadline in the middle of an ice storm. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Mahogany L. Brown, author of the YA novel, A Bird in the Air Means We Can Still Breathe.

[00:49:41] I wanted to focus on young people for this specific story, is that they're the ones that had to give up so much of their childhood, right? Like there are these pivotal community celebratory moments that only happen in the recess, on the yard, on the block, at the club. Our young people lost that. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace.

[00:50:14] What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramond. The Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.