Pursuing Passion with Shanora Williams

[00:00:00] I need to be wise with it because stuff like this does not last, especially for women like us. Black women, it's trickier for us. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:23] And this month, we're celebrating Black love, be it learning to love again after heartbreak, illicit love affairs we'd least expect, the flurries of first love, or how the love of family can get us through anything. Today's guest is Shanora Williams, an author who cut her career in self-publishing in 2013 but didn't get her big break from a traditional publisher until 2020.

[00:00:48] I think if that book hadn't been a target book club pick, it wouldn't have done well. And it only did because of that whole Black Lives Matter thing that was happening. They were looking for content from Black people and at the time, I had what they needed. Shanora's new book is a romance novel entitled Beautiful Broken Love, a book she says it took her years to write after the death of a loved one. How she made room on the page for grief to breathe in all its different forms.

[00:01:13] Plus, how she bends the rules of genre fiction to keep her work honest instead of on trend. And why she says her big break back in 2020 actually put her in debt. That and more is next when Black & Published continues.

[00:01:51] So Shanora, let's jump in. When did you know that you were a writer? Ooh. When I was in high school, I think when I was about like 17. That's when I was actually starting to take it seriously and taking more of a passion to it, I would think. So I wasn't like, you know, claim myself as a writer, but I was trying to get into that field of it. So then when did you start to claim it? When I was 18.

[00:02:15] So what was the difference between 17 when you dabbled and 18 when you said, I'm a writer now? I was 17 and was like, I don't know. I guess I was still in high school. 18 when I graduated and was like, okay, I got this summer and going forward. Like what am I going to do with my life? So I was like, well, I might as well write. And then when I went to community college for like two semesters. But during all those classes, I was just in there writing, like not paying attention at all. And I'm like, why am I here?

[00:02:45] I'm like, so I ended up publishing my first book that same year. And that book ended up doing pretty well. So I was like, oh, okay, well, I'm just going to try and make a career out of this because it gave me a pretty good royalty check. So that was good. Wait, you sold your first book at 18? Yeah, well, I didn't sell. I self published it. Okay. I still had did pretty well. So it was enough for me to get an apartment and a car. So that was good enough for me. Yeah. Did very well. Wow.

[00:03:14] So then while you're in school, not paying attention, writing this debut novel that you self published that allowed you to get your apartment and buy your car. Did you switch to writing to finish school to pay attention to like to focus or to hone your skill? Or did you just like, you know what? I'm out here. Yeah, I was out here. That's pretty much what it was. I was like, we gonna see how long we stay afloat. So I got to get a job again. That was the point. So, yeah, but fortunately, I haven't had to get a job since then.

[00:03:43] I've just been learning each year, like trying to absorb more knowledge about writing and actually trying to take it seriously because before it was more like a hobby, like just something to do for fun. And I wasn't my strongest back then at 18. Of course, my writing was very amateur and very like beginner. But over the years, it did get better. And I actually started to network with other authors and get to know how they do their process and how they learn things. So that did help. But yeah, I was like, I'm gonna be out here.

[00:04:12] I need to be wise with it because you know stuff like this does not last, especially for women like us, like you black women. It's trickier for us. And what year did that first book come out? Oh, that was, I think it was 2013. So for the last 10 years, 11 years going on 12 years now you've been like out here, just writing and hustling and learning as you go.

[00:04:39] What have you learned and how has that helped to improve your craft as you've continued to write and publish? I've learned that I really have to take myself seriously. I think that was one of the biggest things is when you don't take it seriously or take yourself seriously, that leads to more downfalls, I think. Or when you get too ahead of yourself, because that was another thing like, oh yeah, my book did great. This first book of mine, like, I'm just gonna chill for a couple months.

[00:05:06] No, I think you have to continue because if you don't continue to write, you can't get better at it. And each book of mine, like the voice changes each time as you get older or go through certain experiences. Like the way that I wrote when I was 18 versus when I was what, 21 and had my first kid is completely different voice because you have different experiences.

[00:05:27] So, I mean, I took a lot from just life experiences, which was great, but it was still like, it was a little tricky to navigate because it's like, you have to do it on your own. At the end of the day, nobody can really tell you how to be a writer. You just have to do it. You just have to do it. What do you mean if it's tricky to navigate and that you had to do it on your own? Can you be more specific? I mean, tricky in the sense that not everyone is going to believe in what you do.

[00:05:53] Like, this is something that you have to do for you because I think once you start to see it as this book is for the reader, I think that's when you get lost with it. Because I think at the end of the day, all of our books should be for us first before they become for the reader. And at one point I was writing for the reader and you could tell the difference. So it's a little tricky to navigate too because writers are lonely people sometimes. So they don't really have someone to really voice these things to.

[00:06:18] And, you know, I can tell my husband all day and stuff, but he still wouldn't fully understand that process of writing. And I do think it is good to have friends who understand it, who write, especially people who go through the same experiences as we do. But that's the main thing that made it tricky was just trying to stay consistent and trying to stay, like, keep it for you, if that makes sense. Like, keep it for you. Like, don't make it about anyone else. Just make sure you're writing this for you.

[00:06:44] And so then how do you make sure that you keep that in mind when you say that you have had times where you have tried to write specifically for the reader and not for yourself? How do you ground yourself back into your practice where it's like, okay, I'm writing for me and hopefully the reader will enjoy it once they get to it? I have to disconnect from social media and I like to read more because I like to kind of compare my voice and be like, okay, this is what makes me different. Like you try to find what makes you different. I watch a lot of TV, which helps. That does help.

[00:07:15] And just I think it's just a matter of disconnection. Like you have to sort of separate from the world, if that makes sense. Like if I see one person like reading, writing this story about like a sports romance or something like that, I'm like, oh, well, maybe I should write one too. But I don't need to. That's not what I was supposed to be writing. I should just let that story come to me, whichever comes next. And a lot of things now is like on trend, if that makes sense. Like it's like one minute hockey romance or it's football or something like that.

[00:07:41] And I don't really like to write on trend, but I know a lot of authors who do. And I think trying to write on trend can also be a setup for failure a little bit because then that is what people expect from you. That one thing. And for me, I'm a very multifaceted person. So I just I like to keep my horizons open. So then was romance always a genre that you wanted to write in? Have you tried any others? Do you want to dabble in any other genres or is always about, you know, the meet cute and the happily up after?

[00:08:10] Romance is the one that I have always wanted to write. That is like my core. You know, that's where I started. That's what I will always do. But I do write thrillers. I've had thrillers published with Kensington. And then I have Romantic Seeds, the fantasy romance coming out next year with Red Tower. But I'm still new to that fantasy side. But my main thing was contemporary, straightforward romances with sort of meet cutes. My characters aren't really meet cute people like that. They're more like, excuse me.

[00:08:41] Okay, I see it. I see you having read Beautiful Broken Love. What is it about genre fiction that interests you versus other types of fiction? Because like genre fiction, like thrillers and romance and romance, they're very specific. They have lots of rules and tropes and things like that. Whereas general contemporary fiction or literary fiction or things like that don't.

[00:09:05] And so while readers of genre fiction are very loyal, I also feel like, I don't know. I don't know if it feels boxy or if it's just that's what you love, that's what you love to read. I just want to know what about it interests you? I don't like the formulas because there are formulas to, like romance is usually they meet, there's that middle part. And then I don't care for the miscommunication trope, but I think a lot of people do that.

[00:09:34] But then the happily ever after. And so after a while, I kind of got bored with that, which is why I had drifted to thrillers a little bit. But the same goes for thrillers. Thrillers are tricky too. Because if you try too hard with thrillers, they're like, that's not believable. But if you don't try enough, they're like, she didn't try enough. You know, you can't really please a thriller reader as much as a romance reader, which is crazy. But I've learned that over the years. Like thriller readers are way harder to please than a romance reader.

[00:10:00] Because at the end of the day, all romance readers want is for them to kiss and hug and love and happily. But for thrillers, if you end it with, oh, someone died, they're like, that was stupid. Everything is dumb. There is no good, satisfying ending for a lot of people. So I do like that romance is straightforward in the sense that it's much easier to know what to do. Whereas with thrillers, I'm like, okay, which way do I go to keep this plot the same and intense, but not too far off from what we're going for.

[00:10:28] And to keep the secrets in there until you get to the reveals. Do you find that writing other types of genre fiction, such as thrillers and romanicy, allow you to stretch as a writer beyond what you would do in a strict romance genre? Definitely. Yes, definitely. I had a self-published at Romanicy before I signed this other deal. I self-published a trilogy. And I think that was the hardest thing I've ever written in my whole career, that trilogy.

[00:10:56] Literally, like, I think it fried my brain for a little bit. I had to take a couple months off after writing that one. But I do feel like it challenged me, which was good. I like to be challenged because I get easily bored when I write. So that was fun. It did challenge me, which is good. I needed that to come back to me, to be able to trust myself in what I do. So then let's talk about publishing. You said you self-published your first novel when you were 18 in 2013. And then you just mentioned some deals that you've had,

[00:11:24] but also self-publishing your Romanicy trilogy. So do you do both? Like, however these books are going to get out as where you go, whether you have a deal for with a traditional publisher or whether you decide to self-publish yourself? The last book I self-published was a couple months ago. So next year, for example, I'm not self-publishing anything, but that's because I have three books coming out. And it kind of takes up that space. And you can't release around a certain time when those books come out. So next year, I don't have any. But this year, I did self-publish a book.

[00:11:53] But it just depends on what I'm working on. So I had a good break in between where I was able to self-publish. But next year, I don't have any break. So it's like I'm not going to be able to self-publish anything. Each has their pros and cons. But right now, I think I prefer to be with a publisher only because my kids, they're young. And it's just much easier to just turn in one book versus with self-publishing. You kind of got to work faster to complete the series or trilogy. Because for some reason, self-published readers are way more impatient.

[00:12:20] Like when they read indie romances versus a publisher one. Like they're not as patient with people who self-publish versus with a publisher, which is weird. But can you talk more about the pros and cons? The pros of self-publishing I like is because you get to do like the cover design. I like to choose my covers. I like to have like full control of that. You don't get that really with a publisher. There was only one publisher I did. And that was for Beautiful Broken Love. And they let me decide how I wanted the cover, like what I wanted on it.

[00:12:49] And even down to the little dragonfly on the cover, I asked if they could add that. Because it was an element in the book. And they were like, yes, we'll try that. So that was good because they did cooperate with that. But for Kensington, some of my thrillers, no. They were like, well, we like this and we're just going to go with this. And I was like, well, I don't like it at all, but whatever. So you can't really do much about it because they have the final say so. But if it's me self-publishing, I get to decide, okay, I want this element on the cover. And as you work with the designer, you choose, okay, they try a couple of things and you decide, yes, I like this.

[00:13:19] And they go the out direction. But at the end of the day, you get to decide, like, I love this. This is mine. And I like that. But editing-wise, you do have to hire someone for self-publishing. But with publishing, you have the editor. And they kind of just, you know, run with it. But the only con with self-publishing is that it's more expensive. You have to come out of pocket for a lot of things. But honestly, I enjoyed self-publishing. I did it for several years and made good money doing that. And I'm a control freak, too.

[00:13:49] So I like controlling my stuff. So, but right now it's fine because I'm like, I'm trying to take it easy and give up a little bit of that control and change my ways. But it's hard. But I'm learning. No, it's fine. I self-published for several years until I got my deal in 2023. I wonder, because the self-publishing landscape has changed so much from when I first started in 2017. So I know it's changed from when you first started in 2013.

[00:14:16] Can you talk more about how it's changed, how you find and maintain your audience through these big billionaire-run giant corporations and all of that? It is harder. And I think it's because I think TikTok had a big impact on that. I think it became easier for people to know what to do to self-publish. And so there's way more books, which leads to way more to consume, but not enough people

[00:14:45] to consume it, if that makes sense. Like the readers are overwhelmed with the choices. So they really are like nitpicking what they want right now. Whereas before, you know, if I had a release, people were just like, oh yeah, I'm running to get that. Now it's kind of like, okay, that's nice, but why should I read this? You know, like it's, you know, they're not pressed about it. So, but I do think like book talk did have an effect on that. And I think it made a lot of people wary too. Like some people would read some and be like, this was horrible. You know, like they were very critical of this.

[00:15:14] Like, how is this such a popular thing? So they're kind of nervous and they wait for other people to say something about a book before it comes out. For Beautiful Broken Love, I'm actually having a tricky time trying to push this one because it's such a heavy topic. And then after the whole election things, people are like, I don't want anything heavy or emotional. We just want light and fluffy. And I'm like, okay, well that's not this. So how am I going to like push this to get people to want to read it? But at the end of the day, it's not my job. It's the publisher's job.

[00:15:44] But I still like to keep my readers active, but it's a little hard. It's a little hard. Which is funny. Your book was the first one that I read after the election. For real? Yeah. Because I was like, I can't deal with anything. I was like, I'm reading romance and watching romances on TV all weekend right after the election. I was like, I just can't do it. But escaping into your novel, even with the heaviness of grief, still felt like an escape to me. Oh, that's good.

[00:16:14] I'm glad to hear that because, yeah, I've been nervous about that one. Can you talk about your first foray into traditional publishing? Did you go after a publisher? Did they come to you? Did you go after an agent? What was that like? Did you still run back and forth between traditional and self-publishing all the time? Yeah. So my first traditional book was a thriller and that was with Kensington. It was a different editor. I've had three different editors since I've been with them. But my first one, her name was Selena and she was looking for diverse thrillers, like

[00:16:43] thrillers featuring Black people and domestic thrillers, especially like the husband and wife thing. And so my agent that I had at the time, she was telling me, yeah, they're looking for this. And I was like, and she knew I wanted to write one. So she was like, I think you should try and turn something in. So I ended up writing a couple of pages and sending it to them. And they were like, yes, we want to give a deal for this. And it wasn't a massive deal. It was not big at all, but I saw it as an opportunity to branch out. And I will say that I think taking that deal put me in a lot of debt, but I think it also opened up a lot of doors for me.

[00:17:12] So it's like a lose win type of thing. Lose at first because I couldn't publish anything six months before it came out because that was a contract. So I'm kind of like going broke a little bit, waiting for this book to come out. And then even with that book coming out that August, I didn't get paid till May for royalties. And that was what year? That was in 2020. And I feel like I'm just now getting back to being stable. Last year, maybe is when it started to feel a little bit more stable. But yeah, it was a very hard time.

[00:17:42] But I mean, I don't recommend it going that way. If you're going to sign a deal, you need to make sure you're getting something good from it up front. And that the publisher is actually going to push the book because a lot of people like I feel like a lot of these publishers will sign people and then they don't do anything with it. Like they don't push it. They don't like get it to the right people, get it in the right hands, nothing. So it's like, why am I giving you the rights to my book when you're not doing anything with it? Like you're supposed to. But I think if that book hadn't been a target book club pick, it wouldn't have done well. And it only did because of that whole Black Lives Matter thing that was happening.

[00:18:12] They were looking for content from Black people. And at the time I had what they needed. So you say the book puts you into debt, but also open doors. It was a target book club pick and it was your first traditionally published book. That was four. It'll be five years ago once this episode comes out. I have two questions. One of them is kind of sticky, but be as candid as you like. You've talked a little bit about how that traditional deal puts you into debt and that

[00:18:40] you've made really good money self-publishing. As candid as you want to be, can you break down those numbers? Because I haven't met many people who were like, yeah, self-publishing pays all my bills. No, like I was making about like six figures a year self-publishing. So I had a pretty stable career. And so to take that hit was major. Because if I'm not releasing every at least six months, then I'm losing money.

[00:19:07] So I would always try to make sure I have two books a year at least when I self-publish. And it would be a duet or a trilogy or something like that. Just as long as that was continuous income. Because once one person reads the first book, they usually want the next books. So I used that formula to do it. But not doing that for a year definitely put me in a bind. I had one book come out earlier that year. But not being able to do it afterward was terrible. Because I don't work during the holidays. So like around November, when I would have been able to put something out, I didn't have anything.

[00:19:35] So it was just like, okay, you're broke. You're going to be broke for a while. So I was making six figures. But I only got $4,000 for that deal. Yeah. And I told my agent at the time, I was like, this don't seem worth it. You know? And she was like, well, I think you just need to see the opportunities in the future. And she's not my agent anymore. But I was like, okay. Because I didn't know. Because if you got $4,000 for that deal, did your agent still take 15%? Yeah. Are you serious? Yeah, she did. Yes.

[00:20:05] And she's a really good woman. And it's just we didn't mesh well as far as that goes. Like, I'm a striver. I want, like, you need to make me money. If I'm going to have an agent, I need to make that money. So the agent I have now, she's all about like money, bulldog. And that's what I need. I need someone who's going to vouch for me and not be afraid to talk to these publishers. So, and I think she was a little nervous to step on their toes because she had a good working relationship with them. But I'm like, that's what an agent is for. Like, you got to push for that stuff. Because it was $4,000 for three book, a three book deal.

[00:20:35] I got four for each book. So it was $12,000 total. But you know, you don't get all of it at once. So that payment on that signing and then a payment when you turn it in. So it wasn't like all at once. So that was awful. So my next deal that I signed with them was for two books, $35,000 each. So I got, what was that, like $70,000, which was way better. But I don't think I'm going to earn out from those. That's the sad thing. That's the sad thing. I don't think I'm going to earn out anytime soon from those because they don't push them. There's a reason I'm not signing with them again. I will say that.

[00:21:04] I think if you're going to have the rights to these books, you really need to do something with them. Otherwise, what's the point of me signing with you? I just don't see the point. I might as well self-publish it at that rate. So that goes right into my next question, which is about the marketing. And I think that's my curiosity around genre fiction as a writer and someone who really does this and loves these very niche-specific genres that have these rabid and ravenous readers. But the industry doesn't always respect.

[00:21:34] Like it's padding their books and their bottom line, but that's not where their support necessarily goes. So can you talk about the differences in marketing and pushing books when you do it yourself versus when you are contractually bound and you're still not seeing the support that you need or want to have? So self-publishing is, I think personally it was better because it's more intimate, if that makes sense. So they make sure you get with readers in groups and in certain places so you can actually

[00:22:03] talk to them one-on-one. So I would hire a PR company who works directly with romance books. And they would get me into these release parties and have signup forms for their people who are on their roster. And that would bring more attention to the book. And I would do pretty well with that. But you can do the same with a publisher and hire a PR company. But I'm like, I'm not paying out of pocket for this when they can do it. Like that's their job. But I will say for Beautiful Work and Love, they did hire a PR firm for them.

[00:22:34] And they do have like a plan for the marketing, which is good. Well, they're doing some of their job because the PR people reached out to me. That's good, yeah. We've been talking about money. So I'm going to ask the question, how much would you pay for a PR company? Because there was an article, I want to say it was in The Guardian earlier this year, that was talking about how authors are paying out of pocket for PR companies. And some are like for $15,000. So the PR companies I've worked with, they don't charge that much.

[00:23:02] They do charge by month if you have like a buildup too early. So say you hired them three months before. I think it was $800 a month, but they do everything. Like they make graphics for you, all of that stuff. So it's like three to four months paying $800. So it's not too bad. And I think it's worth that investment because you end up getting it back plus more when they actually push the book. But yeah, I've never gone over $10,000 for PR. I'm very cheap, so I'm not about to pay so much.

[00:23:30] And the good thing is my agent now, she has a PR company. So she helps me push a lot of those things too for either a discount or she just does it herself, which is good. So I have a lot of writers reach out to me, listeners reach out to me that want to write and are trying to navigate self-publishing versus traditional publishing, how to get better, trying to figure out how much money to spend, what's good money, this, that, and a third.

[00:23:56] Do you have any advice for people that are navigating this as you learn so much on your own and just was like out here living and doing? You know what? Honestly, I feel like I don't because the industry has changed so much. Like even I'm struggling to self-publish books and get them the exposure that they need because you can blast it as much as you want. But that doesn't mean people are going to read it because I see a lot of comments like, oh, I just added it to my TBR. And I'm like, okay, but buy it. But I think the only thing you can really say for somebody who's really trying to make this a career is to just keep writing that next book.

[00:24:26] Keep writing that next book and try to like network with other authors for sure. I would try to do like writer retreats if you can, writer conventions, even book signings. You'll meet people and connect with them. And a lot of authors, I don't think they mind when you reach out to them on social media. Like I don't mind when somebody contacts me either through a DM or an email and says, hey, you know, this is happening for me and I would love some advice. Like I don't mind that. I think that's one of the main things that really pushed me through was networking and

[00:24:53] speaking with other authors and learning their experience, getting their advice. A lot of people told me how to like market books to get more exposure, but this is back in the day. So it doesn't work the same. But the main thing people said were visuals, like creating graphics or like now you can create the reels and TikTok videos. And I would definitely just try to keep learning more about writing. Like just keep studying that craft of it. Because I don't think a lot of people realize it is a craft. Like it's something that you are creating from you. It's not just like some people do see it as just business.

[00:25:23] But for me, I'm not a business. Like I don't see it as that. This is my passion. So I think if you actually are passionate about it, you have to keep learning and developing and keep reading. And so with that said, your novel is Beautiful Broken Love. You have an author's note that it was a very personal story to you, inspired by a loss of your own and your family and how writing it so many years later was still cathartic and a solace for you.

[00:25:50] So can you read something from Beautiful Broken Love and we can dive into the story of Davina and Deke. Beautiful Broken Love by Shonora Williams is the second chance love story of Davina Klein-Roberts and Deke Bishop. Reeling from tragedy and trying to rebuild her life, Davina is not prepared for Deke, the NBA star with his own dark secrets who takes a sudden interest in her and won't take no for an answer. Here's Shonora. Okay.

[00:26:17] I did bookmark one, but it's like a very short and it's in his point of view. This was on page 17. And this is right after he was talking to his sisters on FaceTime. But then I looked at her, really looked at her and felt like I had been struck by a tiny boat of lightning. Something buzzed between us, something I couldn't quite explain. All I knew was that I had to know more about her. Who was this woman and where has she been for the past 33 years of my life? Davina was a magnet.

[00:26:46] From the moment I entered that office, she'd had an intense pull on me. And oddly enough, I wanted to fill that pool again. Thank you. You have these two successful professional folks. Davina has her own natural body oil product company. Declan, also known as Deke, is an NBA player who was a little ashy. And so now she wants him to come and be the face of her company.

[00:27:14] And yet underneath that meet cute, because it was, I thought it was meet cute. Underneath that, they are both struggling under the pressures of grief. Mm-hmm. Why did you feel that grief was the best vehicle for you to tell their story in this very formulate romance kind of genre? Because I don't think that Deke would have been as patient or understanding if he hadn't

[00:27:44] suffered through it himself. I think he would have just been like, oh, well, she don't want me. Okay, whatever. I'm moving on. But I think he, when he learned that, I think it kind of brought him closer to her. So, and for her, I think when she found out that he was also grieving, it was kind of like, oh, okay, there's something deeper to this person. It's not just some NBA star who thinks he's all that, you know, like there's something more to this person. And I like the romance aspect anyway, and the angst that comes with it. Angst is my favorite to write.

[00:28:12] Like, I love the buildup of the characters, because it takes a minute for them to get, you know, get to where it needs to be. But I don't know. I think the grief, that was the main thing I wanted anyway, was to incorporate that grief. But I was like, how am I going to get these characters to show this while also being soft and open and not so cutthroat? Because my grief was very cutthroat. Like, I was not as happy or go lucky as Davina or pretending that everything was okay. Like, you knew I was upset. I don't want to work. I couldn't write.

[00:28:41] So to have her do that was empowering in a sense, because it's like, I did want to see what it would be like for someone to work through this. How would she still go through day by day and suffer through this loss, but still keep her business running, like 100% running, still making these big deals, you know? What is it like for you to process your own pain and your own losses on the page through these characters? What was that like for you even so many years later when you talk about how your grief was cutthroat?

[00:29:10] And in this novel, it's very much given the room to breathe and to be. Ooh. So when I came up with the idea, I knew that I just wanted to write someone who was going through what I was going through. So I didn't know at the time what she would be like, and I didn't want to make her like me because I'm not nice when I'm sad. I couldn't do it. I could not do it for what? That was like three, four years. I could not write this book.

[00:29:36] So trying to translate that is so hard because I took the softer parts of me, then put them to Davina. And then I was like, okay, so if I'm still this soft person, how would I react to this? How would I cope with this? And what is her support system? Because I think a support system is important. She had a big support system for her. And trying to write that pain, I don't know, it's so tricky. It's so tricky. I don't even know how I did it, to be honest. I know I was crying a lot. That's one of the big things. I was definitely crying a lot.

[00:30:05] And I tried not to focus too much on that, like the sadness, if that makes sense. I didn't want to take away that joy in between because I think there are still moments in it. And I think that's what I was looking for, moments through all of that where you can smile and be happy and look forward to something. But still, you know, that one chapter where she's talking about her path, like that weighs heavily on her. And sometimes she would say stuff like that in the book, like I still expect my husband to come through the door or that he's just away for a work trip.

[00:30:34] That's how I felt for like a year because my brother played overseas. So I didn't see him every day anyway. So I would think sometimes like, oh, he's just overseas playing. And then you realize, no, he's not. He's gone. Like he's not overseas. You're not going to see him again. So, you know, those little things, trying to translate that and put it into a book was difficult because it's like, this is not my husband. This is my brother. So even with that, you know, that's a different type of loss. Like it's still a loss, but that's a different type of loss when you lose a spouse.

[00:31:04] So, because this is someone you plan to have a whole future with. And even though you would plan to have a future with your sibling, it's completely different. So I just try to imagine myself if I had lost my husband, how would I react? So then with all that said and you being admittedly nervous about how readers will receive this romance novel with this heavy layer of grief in it, what do you want them to know or take from the novel once they do give it a chance and read it?

[00:31:35] I think I want people to know that there are different ways to grieve. Like, I think we all have to go through that process of grief, but I think there are people who do it differently. Like, so Deke's, his way of grieving was completely different from hers. His whole thing was just ignore it all. Don't even think about it too much. Just focus on now, you know, work on now. And with her, it was like, no, I want to be in this, you know, and some people want to be in it. They want to be in it so that they can push through it a little more. But I think even with her sister, there was a different type of grief.

[00:32:03] Hers is that I'm going to, you know, she loved her brother-in-law, but it was more so like, I need to push through this. I need to push through this. I cannot cry because if I cry, she's going to cry. I think that's the vibe that I got from her. And even her best friend, the same way. Like, she was trying to be strong for her and push for her. So I think grief, it comes in different forms. And I would think that if someone is going through a loss and reading this book, that they can relate a little bit. I actually had someone reach out to me and say that she had lost her brother because she read it early.

[00:32:32] And she said she lost her brother two years ago. And she said, you put into words everything that I couldn't put into words. And I think if that's what you get from it, that's a good thing. Because it is hard to put those feelings into words. Like, how do you tell people without being too sad about it or too depressed about it? You know, or feeling like you're bothering somebody about it, you know? Or making it like, I'm so sad. I'm grieving. Focus on me. You know, you don't want to have, you don't want to project that all the time.

[00:33:01] Like, I'm not someone who goes out like, yeah, I lost my brother today. I lost my brother. Yeah. Like, I don't, you don't want to do that. But you want to talk about it. You want to think about it. And I think that's kind of a good thing. If they can get that from this or feel any type of connection to Davina's grief or even Deke's grief. And know that there is like joy in between and passion and happiness.

[00:33:31] And that there is always like, you know, you heal in a different way. If somebody can just heal through it, that'll be great. I think. Just healing. And so with all that said, what are you working on next? So I did just sign a contract. With the same publisher with Montlake. The one with Beautiful Broken Love. I just signed with them. I think it's going to be pretty obvious who the next one is. Because it's in the same world as Deke and Davina's. So, yeah.

[00:33:58] So I'm like, I think it's pretty obvious who it's going to be about if you read the whole thing. Like, and see, okay, yeah, this is going to happen. It's not going to be. It's going to be the sister and the friend. Yeah. With the kid. Yeah. I think it's going to be pretty awesome. So it's like a nanny. It'll be a nanny romance. Like she's his nanny and he's a single dad. And he also is going through grief too. So I think it'll be nice and good to add that layer there too.

[00:34:28] So it's like the same elements, but a little different. Because you met him. That guy is very like stubborn. He's like, you know, he's not someone who's nice. Like he's nice, but he's nice and like a rude. He's an asshole. Yeah. He's a grieving asshole, but he's an asshole. Yeah. Like don't tickle her. Don't tickle my daughter. Yeah. So I think it'll be nice to like kind of see that. And then with the sister, she's very headstrong, I think. And she doesn't take anything from anybody. So I think that'll be fine. That's what I'm working on right now.

[00:34:57] So, all right. Well, I want to switch to a speed round and a game before I let you go for the morning. What is your favorite book? I can't say a favorite, but I do like anything by Octavia Butler. I love her work. That is like my go-to. I love all of her work. But I think my favorite of hers is The Parable of the Sower. I think that was my favorite one. All right. Well then who was your favorite author? Octavia Butler. I figured that was coming. I was like, we're just going to go throw it out there.

[00:35:26] Because I like how like multifaceted, I like how like in-depth she is and how realistic it is. You know, I like that. What is your favorite TV show? Schitt's Creek. I like Schitt's Creek. I think that was my favorite. But if we're talking like classics, my favorite has always been Martin. I love Martin. That has always been my number one like go-to show. I love Martin. If Beautiful Broken Love was to get the screen treatment, who would you want to play Deke and Davina?

[00:35:53] When I imagined Davina, I imagined, have you seen, oh God, what's that show? With Tracee Ellis Ross. It was on ABC and she had Family. Black-ish. Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. Why am I drunk? Seriously. Her daughter in there, the oldest one. I imagined her with like a mixture of somebody else, but like an older version for Davina. And for Deke, I just honestly, I didn't see a face for Deke, which is crazy. Like when I write, I don't see faces. So I just kind of make it up as I go.

[00:36:22] I just see like everything else, like the hair, the style, but I don't see like features of a face. So I don't know. But who's like, who's a good, definitely not LeBron, but. I was thinking the first person that came to mind was Amon Shumpert just because he's been acting on The Shy, but he's also, he was in the NBA. Oh, that is a good one. Yeah. So. Yeah. That is a good one. I like that one. Yeah. Cause somebody was like LeBron. I was like, no. No. No. Absolutely not.

[00:36:51] If money were no object, where would you go? What would you do? And where would you live? I want to go to Greece, Santorini, Greece, but then I keep hearing about it and I don't know. Cause people are like, it's not that great. And I'm like, oh, okay. But I still want to go. That's somewhere I've always wanted to go to Greece. And I think I would stay somewhere that's tropical, but not like too thick, you know, like hot, hot, tropical, like somewhere cool and nice. Somewhere in like the Bahamas, somewhere near there.

[00:37:20] Name three things on your bucket list. I want to go to Hawaii. I've never been. That is one thing I definitely want to do. I do want to see the Grand Canyon cause I've never seen that. And I've never been to New York. So I want to go to New York. What brings you joy? My family, just being with my family, especially my husband and my kids. I think those are the people I'm closest to. And when I think of them, I just think, I mean, they can be frustrating, but at the end of the day, they do bring me joy. And what brings you peace? Peace.

[00:37:50] Definitely writing, writing, reading, playing the Nintendo Switch, nothing. Watching, what is it, like streaming or anything, like, you know, a new show that I'm interested in. Like, I just like to, as long as I'm relaxed or feel relaxed and not really focused on all the stresses of the world, then I can feel at peace. Okay. And so our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book that you wish you would have written. You already know what I'm going to say.

[00:38:19] I feel like I do. But just go ahead and say it for the people. Yes, because that parable of the sower, definitely. That's a beautiful book. I think it's so deep. And I look at it, I'm like, how did she think of this? Like, how do you think of this stuff? Like, I like being challenged when I read. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? Have you read the book Behind Her Eyes? It was a show. It was on Netflix. And the ending was, it annoyed me.

[00:38:48] And I was like, I wish this had been different. Like, I didn't like it at all. Last question for Rewriting the Classics. Name a book that you think is overrated and why? This is not, people are probably going to be mad at me. But Sister Soldier. Which one? I personally, I think The Coldest Winter was no. Wow. Because I'm like, I don't know. I think it's just more so I'm not the audience for it.

[00:39:18] So I don't know. I don't know. But I always read that and I was like, I don't get it. Like, I don't, I don't understand. I can understand why people are excited about it. But I was like, I don't get it. I didn't get it. And it's not awful. The writing is great. It's good. But it's like, I didn't get it. Like, I didn't. I couldn't understand the hype at the time. And I have her latest two books on my nightstand right now. Life After Death, which I hadn't read yet. And although I didn't hear good things about it, but I haven't read it yet.

[00:39:46] And then I have Love After Midnight, which is supposed to conclude the Winter Santiago story sitting on my nightstand right now. Final question for the day. When you're dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about you and the legacy of words and work that you leave behind? I just hope people recognize my passion for writing. Because I've always doubted myself.

[00:40:13] Even now, it kind of feels like an imposter syndrome type of thing. Like, I feel like I don't belong where I am. And I think that more so goes with like a generational thing for me. But I would think, I would hope that people just say she was extremely passionate about this. She, you know, I don't, I don't think I'm like really all that. Like that great, you know, writer who would be like Octavia Butler or Toni Morrison. I don't think I'm that level.

[00:40:40] But I do want people to just realize like and recognize she worked hard. She was passionate. And she told stories that were from her heart. And she was lovely. She was nice. Yeah, say something nice. I feel like a pretty nice person. Not too bad. Not too bad. Big thank you to Shannora Williams for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Shannora on the socials at ShannoraWilliams on Twitter and at ReallyShannora on Instagram.

[00:41:08] And make sure you check out Beautiful Broken Love, out now from Montlake. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published and that's B-L-K-& Published.

[00:41:37] There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Shannora about what she does to keep honing her craft of writing. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Victoria Christopher Murray, author of the historical fiction novel Harlem Rhapsody. I have to prove myself. This is my first book. Those are the words I was told.

[00:42:02] This is my first book as a solo writer and I have to prove myself as a historical writer. The fact is, I'm a Black writer. I've written an important book. I think I wrote it well. I think people will be engaged, but it doesn't matter. What overshadows everything is I'm a Black writer and I'm starting over. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace.

[00:42:40] What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black books matter.