Love Notes to Children with Amber McBride

[00:00:00] Not fitting into a box is what I really aspire to do, and I've always wanted to be a writer that has a story and then figures out which medium is best to tell it in, not to feel like I have to be in one category. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:23] Today's guest is National Book Award finalist and Coretta Scott King Award winner Amber McBride, the author of the middle grade novel Onyx and Beyond. It's a novel that's given Amber both personal and professional freedom after overcoming significant challenges in the early days of her writing and publishing career. I got over 150 rejections just from getting agents and then when I was selling my books, my first two books never sold once I had an agent.

[00:00:52] You think if you work very, very hard, you should have a step into at least being published. But in general, it's so gatekeepy on how you enter the space and who decides and who enters the space. So this idea that if you're just good that you'll get published is a myth that I had to dispel. In proving to the business of publishing that she was good enough, in quotation marks, Amber has written across genres, from poetry to prose, for YA, middle grade, and adult audiences.

[00:01:20] How she keeps stretching herself as a writer to level up and never fit in the box. Plus, the words she prefers to use instead of writer in reference to the kinds of stories she renders on the page. And the spiritual practices she believes helps her characters arrive fully formed in her mind. That and more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:52] So then let's jump right in. Amber, when did you know that you were a writer? I think I knew I was a writer from a very young age. I think I always expressed if I was feeling overwhelmed or upset. Rewriting, the very first book I wrote, I can't remember if it's like the fourth or the fifth grade, but it was called Once Upon a Unicorn. And it was about a unicorn who was brown because there were no characters that were brown like me.

[00:02:20] A brown unicorn with rainbow wings that came down and saved this girl. And my parents bound it and everything. And it was like my pride and joy. It's such a vibe. But I think my parents always allowed me to express myself in writing. I enjoyed writing. Knowing that you're a writer and being told that, you know, as a Black girl, you can become a writer are like two different things, right? And so I don't know that I knew that I could become a writer as a career. But I definitely always very young identified as a writer. Yeah.

[00:02:50] So then at what point did you know that you could become a writer as a career? I mean, do I know now? I don't know. You know what I mean? That's real. Tomorrow, nobody could want my books. I don't know. I think that for me, okay, so the crucial thing is like I was an undergrad. I went to James Madison University and I was pre-med. So I was pre-med for three years. I really liked helping people. I was pretty good at science and things. Math was like my downfall. But I took most of the pre-med classes I needed to take.

[00:03:20] And then my junior year, I got into a car accident. My parents were like, you need to go to the hospital just in case because insurance, if you need physical therapy, you'll get that. So I go to the hospital and I'm sitting in the waiting room and I'm like, I really hate hospitals. I really don't like it here. And you're going to become a doctor at some point. You're going to have to spend a good four years in a hospital. And I like, it was just like under my skin, the quietness of it, the way it smelled, everything. And so I went back home.

[00:03:49] I sat with that for like a couple weeks. And then I was like, how am I going to tell my parents? I don't want to be a doctor anymore. So I gained up the strength. I like my parents knew it was serious because I like set up a time to chat with them when they were like both ready to talk. And I was explaining what was happening. And, you know, more power to my parents. My mother was like, you give me a five to 10 year plan of what you're going to do as a writer because English was always my minor and will support you in finishing that up.

[00:04:15] And I wouldn't have to take like five classes each semester because I had so many pre-med classes. And I came up with a five year plan. And my parents were like, sure. But it was that car that hit the back of my car on Port Republic Road. And the license plate was sexy slim. Thank you so much. And so then I went to grad school, Emerson College in Boston. And yeah, the rest is just that process of getting an agent, figuring it out and just constantly like running, which is why I say when I was like, do I still know? I don't know.

[00:04:44] I feel like writing is always that one where you're like, well, tomorrow they could hate all my things. I don't know. So are we still in the timeline of the five year plan with this book, Onyx and Beyond? We're beyond the five year plan now. We're coming up on a 10 year plan for this. And I'm ahead of schedule, which is great. So yeah, no, it's very surreal. I have been a full time professor. I haven't been able to leave my teaching for a whole week. And so I resigned last May from the University of Virginia.

[00:05:13] And McMillian was like, do you want to go on book tour? And I was like, oh my God, yes. And so it really does feel like I got to meet. I went to not all with McMillian, but I went over the last two weeks, I went to 11 schools and went to like six different places. I'm like, wow, people are reading my books. I think it was my first moment where I was like, this does feel real. Because before it would be like I write a book and I knew people were reading it. I was never meeting my readers as much. And so it was just really great when a bunch of middle schoolers run up to you and give you a hug and say they love your book.

[00:05:42] Like it heals something in you. And it has been, I don't know, such a privilege and a wonderful tour to meet so many students. I'm officially a full time writer right now. So that's exciting. Okay. And you said it. So I'm going to ask it. So what does it feel like to be a full time writer now and to meet your fans who love you and love your work and your stories? It feels amazing. I feel like a lot of people talk about how they feel a lot of pressure because like it is that's your job now. You're supposed to carve out time.

[00:06:10] I felt a lot of freedom in the sense of I had been very burnt out because I was a full time professor doing like some school visits and writing several books a year. And so for me, I finally have this like time to really inspect the books that I'm writing and challenge myself more. And so it just feels like I can become the writer I want to be at the like caliber I want to write at because I have the space and time to create.

[00:06:35] But yeah, the first three months was a bit of an adjustment when like all your time is yours because you know that way you're self-employed or something like you have to set your schedule. And so that was a bit of an adjustment. And also I wanted to let myself heal from burnout a bit. So then I felt like I was being lazy because I wasn't working enough. But eventually I've worked out a system where I don't work for word count anymore before I had to because I was rushing. Now I work for how long am I working with words a day? And I aim for about two to three hours.

[00:07:03] And then outside of that, I'm reading, watching YouTube videos, just being curious. And so I get to watch more documentaries. I go on nature walks, get to meet my friends more for coffee. I just feel like I have a more balanced life, which has really helped my like mental health. So that's really good. That's awesome. You said that as a full time writer now, you want to inspect your work more, which was an interesting choice of words.

[00:07:27] And then also that you want to like basically level up and write better and at a higher level, higher capacity. What does that mean for you? Is that still going to be in like the middle grade range or what? How are you trying to challenge yourself and get deeper into your own talent and creativity in that way? I don't ever be a writer where people know what's coming next. And I don't know that I've gotten into that yet. I think that I've written like Onyx and Beyond is my first book from a little boy's perspective.

[00:07:57] It was very challenging. Without my dad's help, I would have never been able to write the voice, you know? And I want to start doing the themes or the stories that I knew when I was writing. I didn't have the time, capacity or energy to like work through those issues. There's some books on and in the young adult and middle grade space. But there's also I've been wanting to write, which is like my entire everyone asks me this one. And like, when are you going to write a gothic novel? Because that is like entirely who I am, like a gothic novel.

[00:08:24] I've been working on a fantasy series on and off for several years. And for the first time over the summer, I was able to really talk with my agent about like, how are we going to like flesh this out? So all those things of like not fitting into a box is what I really aspire to do. And I really sat down and I kind of inspected that because like as a writer, you can be put into a box, you know, of what people expect from you. And so, you know, when my adult poetry collection came out, it's funny because I have to keep reminding people it's adult so that they don't get it for their kids.

[00:08:53] And like, it's been a journey. But I've always wanted to be a writer that writes, has a story and then figures out which median is best to tell it in, not to feel like I have to be in one category. And overall, I just find young adults more interesting. But there are some stories that I just can't make for young adults, right? It's an adult story that needs to happen. And I started inspecting the idea of me as a writer and like how I go about my process.

[00:09:14] And I realized that the writers I'm most inspired by, like Zora, Neil Hurston and Toni Morrison, I don't know if they consider themselves writers so much as like folklorist or people who are creating stories around what was happening in this day and telling stories that kind of like almost encapsulates it. And so I've been looking at that idea of folklorist versus writer or being both. And that's been I've been really inspecting in the last like three or four months.

[00:09:39] And I feel like you don't have to choose because even with Toni Morrison and Zora Neil Hurston, they didn't necessarily choose. They were writers, novelists, folklorists, essayists, like all of that's there and it can always be infused. It can be. But I think that like when we talk about, you know, when we're sitting here and we know what we want to be, right? Like whether you're saying like you don't have to choose, like you have this like plethora of things you can be and we are.

[00:10:07] But then when you go out into publishing and they have to market it, it becomes an entirely different kind of thing. I'm proud to be a writer. But when I decide on how I'm going to write, I feel more of like a folklorist. I'm so influenced by what's happening around me. And then these stories kind of craft outside of that. And I think that folklore is the history of the people and the way it feels and how they're experiencing it. I think these stories that I tell, I try to get to the nitty gritty of like, how are we feeling in this era?

[00:10:36] So, yes, in a perfect world, I would love to identify as all of them. But as I go out and sell books, I think that people knowing I come from a much more of a perspective of experiencing and then writing kind of explains why I jump around so much in the space of where do I want to create and what do I want to write about? All right. So then let's talk about the business going out to sell the books.

[00:10:59] And as you mentioned, like, as the writer, as the creative, as the folklorist, you can do and say whatever you want when you're in your own process of creativity and crafting. But when you enter the business of publishing and want to make money from these here books, it's time to get in the box. Right. They're like, but what is it? Right.

[00:11:26] So how has your experience been from when you said that five-year plan that you first created, getting the MFA, getting the agent, going into publishing, and now we're in the tenure plan? How has your perspective about this career changed from when you first entered in to the space?

[00:11:50] I think I was very naive in the fact that I thought that if you were a good writer and you wrote good stories, you would be published at the very least. And I think the more I learn and like the more rejection I received, because when I was querying, I should mention, I got over 150 rejections just from getting agents. And then when I was selling my books, my first two books never sold once I had an agent. You think if you work very, very hard, you should have a step into at least being published.

[00:12:20] And I think as a Black woman, I really realized that like, one, there's less space for marginalized stories in general, and we're working on making that space. But in general, it's so gatekeepy on how you enter the space and who decides and who enters the space.

[00:12:34] And I always tell like, when I write or do writing workshops, I mention that because like, my first book to sell was Me Moth, which would have been the third or fourth book I had on sub with my agent, but like the 10th book I wrote, and Me Moth ends up, you know, being a national book award journalist. Like, once again, only one editor offered on that book.

[00:12:54] Like, and so this idea that quality, like, that you have to be, if you're just good, that you'll get published is a myth that I had to like dispel, because there's so many writers writing extraordinary books that are not getting published. And then the second aspect is, once you're like in it, is for me, the difficult thing is just remembering not to ever write to the trend, and really stay true to myself.

[00:13:22] Because I think it would be easy to be like, I'm going to write for Romantic, when in reality, I probably could wing it. But like, that's not the kind of book I generally write. That's not the kind of thing I like to work on. And so staying true to myself in this second 10-year plan has been the thing that has been, you know, the most difficult. And I think I have a lot of good friends. I have my parents who read my work, and they'll be like, eh, that doesn't feel like an Amber book. And I shelved a lot of books because of that, of almost trying to write too much to trend.

[00:13:49] But also, yeah, like I said, staying true to myself and making sure that I don't lower my caliber, now that my books might sell a little bit easier, that I still try to keep myself questioning and working hard and putting out my best work. And if I'm not proud of it, working on it until I'm proud of it, even if that means being a little behind deadline or having to push back a publication, has been like in the second 10 or, you know, the second part of that plan of being honest with yourself.

[00:14:14] Of publishing, it's like people think that these big name people who write excellent books, that everybody is like, I want your book. That's not the case even for them when they go out on a new book, right? And so it's such an interesting career. And it's just a process. I'm laughing because you used the word like interesting career and interesting can always, can often be a catch-all. Like it's interesting in a good way. It's interesting in like a sarcastic or cynical kind of way. So here we are.

[00:14:44] Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's all those things. When you got those 150 rejections and your books didn't sell once you even finally got your agent, did you ever consider not trying to publish traditionally and do the self-publishing route? No. Because I knew that I didn't have the capacity or energy for that. Self-published people are, they are working. They are working. And I respect that so much. But being a professor, I knew I did not have the time to like work on that.

[00:15:14] So for me, if it wasn't going to be traditional, I wasn't going to do it. And so then the question is, did I ever decide not to publish traditionally after so many rejections? I had a situation where my book Gone Wolf, which is now published in the world, I had already written that. I wrote that before I wrote Meemaw. And an editor had promised an offer on it by end of day, a good offer, like a solid offer that should have been like my first book published.

[00:15:44] And then the inner workings of publishing and editors talking happened and the deal fell through, which was like very unheard of to get a verbal yes. And then at the end of it, someone be like, just kidding. No, usually a verbal yes from an editor means like they're working on the contract and you should see it. Apparently it was, quote, too controversial at the time. And I really thought about just being like, forgive it. And instead of doing that, my parents, wonderful humans, were like, just write one more book. Just write whatever you want.

[00:16:13] Like, just forget what all the publishing, just write what you want. And my grandfather had recently passed away and I had some experiences I wanted to talk about with him. And that's when I wrote Meemaw, my first book that ended up doing really, really well. And even so I wrote it and I knew I was doing something different and special because one, I wasn't, I just like stopped. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I do not give a fuck anymore.

[00:16:37] And so I wrote Meemaw in such a hoodoo, folklore, holistic kind of way and a story that I really wanted to write. And Liz Sabla and Macmillan, my well-infrained specifically, loved it, called me, had a talk. We hit it off from the beginning and she just saw what I was trying to do. Bought the book. We worked on it. But, you know, it ends up, you know, National Book Award, Coretta Scott King Award. And that's when I, like, that's part of why when I said earlier, I really focused on, like, not writing to trend because that's the book that got me where I am today.

[00:17:07] And so I don't know what I would have done if nobody wanted Meemaw because I still think it's one of the best things I've ever written. But what I will say about, like, finding the perfect editor to work with is that Liz Sabla is the editor who I told her about Gone Wolf. She read it and she was like, nah, we're going to publish this. Like, just the support I've gotten from having an editor who really understood what I was trying to do over the books that I published with her, which are several at this point.

[00:17:33] It makes me not happy that I had to go through what I had to go through, but happy I landed where I landed with the editor that I have who just gets it. You said something about your book Gone Wolf that it was so controversial and that's the reason why it fell through before Macmillan eventually picked it up. Like, what was the controversy with that book?

[00:17:54] And now that you are National Book Award finalist Amber McBride, Coretta Scott King Award winning Amber McBride, that now do you feel like people are willing to trust you and take a chance on you? I wasn't looking at any awards. Like, when I got National Book Award finalist, it was the day of announcements. My phone was off because I was teaching. Like, it wasn't something I was expecting or, like, you know what I mean? Like, I turned my phone on. I had, like, 20 missed calls. I was like, what is going on? Is someone hurt? Who died? Who died? I'm so sad.

[00:18:25] And then, like, but I just thought it was interesting. Like, once you, quote, prove yourself that you're allowed to have much more grace or places to be creative, which I do. That's what I appreciate is that, like, I get a bit more space. But, yeah, it was a book about, you know, a president named President Tuba who thought he had won an election and didn't and then takes the southern states, calls it the Bible boot and reinstitutionalizes a new form of enslavement. And, yeah, we start out with a character named Inmate Eleven locked in a room where she's never been able to leave.

[00:18:55] And, you know, that was, I guess, at the time when I was scoring in 2018. That particular book was considered, you know, like, too much for middle grade but also unrealistic. And, right, I was like, interesting. So I started writing the book because my family is originally from Charlottesville. So I live in Charlottesville, Virginia now after the Unite the Right rally. And I started writing it because, I mean, a person died. Yeah, it was like a woman was killed, Heather Hyatt. Yeah.

[00:19:23] That's her last name, was killed at the counter protest. At the counter protest. And I was so furious. And so this idea that so much hate could come to this area and that there was a person who was spewing about so much hate in, you know, office and calling good people on both sides when someone was literally murdered is heartbreaking for everyone. And so, like, this idea for Gone Wolf kind of, you know, started with this. I didn't know how to tell this story in a honest way.

[00:19:49] And that's the first time I wrote in middle grade without having this very naive girl named Inmate Eleven. She renames herself Imogen. And then it also ends up talking about, like, trauma, trauma from the pandemic, trauma about how do you heal from trauma, talk therapy, and then specifically about how storytelling within the African-American tradition is a way of healing. And so Imogen tells herself stories to heal.

[00:20:12] And I think the way that it was told, the switch that happens in the middle of the book was just, I think, too much for publishers to trust me with for my debut, which, you know, it is what it is. And I'm really, really proud of Gone Wolf and the success that it's had. But, yeah, it was devastating when I put so much work into this book that I had never seen anything, you know, that was working in verse mixed media and prose and playing with all these things to try to make this story kind of puzzle together.

[00:20:42] I really thought that was going to be my debut, and it turned out it wasn't. But then when I got my editor, Liz Zabla, read it and really, you know, resonated with it, like she does so much, her insight and her, you know, notes to make the book even better were priceless. So, like, once again, I do believe everything happens the way it's supposed to happen. I needed that rejection to write the book that was inside me that I wouldn't have written unless I got that rejection. And I needed Liz's notes to get it exactly where I wanted. So it was a book, Gone Wolf, that I was super proud of.

[00:21:12] But, yeah, it was a process. What year did it finally come out? So probably a year from now. I think it was October 3rd or 4th of last year, Gone Wolf came out. I don't know if the paperback is out already, but if they hope— It came out Tuesday. Okay, the paperback came out this past Tuesday. This is October for everyone listening because this episode will air sometime in the new year. I'm going to say, like, we probably need to get that book because I don't know— Where will we be? What the world is going to look like 2025? 2025?

[00:21:42] I don't know what the world is going to look like post-November 5th, 2024. Today is October 7th. So, you know— It's important to put the dates in here because future us will find out. Yeah. Well, it'll be—we'll find out. But, yeah, that one I was proud of because I don't think I also could recreate it. It was just one of those things where I don't even know where the voice came from and I just trusted it. And I think that writing for me is also a spiritual aspect to it in a ritual way.

[00:22:08] Is that, I mean, I practice hoodoo, which is an African-American folk magic system. And so much of my practice involves a lot of centering on listening to my ancestors when I get into a writing space. And so there's a really spiritual aspect to why I write. Because I often get a character that comes, like, fully formed to me. And I do wonder where they come from. But I do trust my ancestors, who I've been working with for a while now. When they give me a character and it's fully formed, then I'm supposed to write a story around that character.

[00:22:35] And that story usually ends up being my responsibility to figure out how that story is going to be crafted. But those characters, so often, like Moth and Imogen or M811, really came as fully formed characters. How did Onyx come to you? Because now we've got Mimoth. We've got Gone Wolf. Yeah. Now you have Onyx and beyond. How did he come to you and arrive? And what was the process of putting his story into the world? That process was a bit more collaborative.

[00:23:02] So during the pandemic, my dad's mother has early onset, or she has dementia. And during the pandemic, it was especially hard because, you know, we weren't allowed to see each other. My mom's, or my dad's mom lives in D.C., Alexandria area, and we live in Charlottesville. And so he got into this habit of calling her three times a day, morning, noon, night, just to help her stay on time.

[00:23:27] And then also just to make sure like he was like all ways in her thoughts at least so that she wouldn't forget him essentially. And he said to me, you know, I call my mother three times a day, every day, and she won't remember whether I call her or not. I call her because I love her.

[00:23:44] And it was this idea of this change in who's not parenting, but like the responsibility that a person whose parent is living with dementia, that child has to them. And so I was like, Dad, we should write a book together. We should write about this. And he was like, okay. Very quickly found out my dad was not going to meet his writing goals. He was a storyteller, but not a writer.

[00:24:08] And so I was like, okay, Dad, you know, what I just need you to do is like every day for like two weeks, we would just make a cup of coffee, sit outside or inside. And he would just tell me stories about growing up in D.C. and Alexandria in the 1970s. And this character of Onyx kind of started to be built. This is a story about a lot of difficult things, but in the end, it's a story about heart and family and the Black family in general, like coming in and helping. And so when he saw the book, he cried.

[00:24:37] And it's dedicated to my grandmother, Bernadine McBride. Thank you for sharing that story. Okay. Also, thank you for talking about like your spiritual practices and how the stories come. Because as I was reading the book, I was like, the whole book is a prayer. The whole book is a prayer. Like that was what I got from it. Like it's so beautiful. And I was like, this whole book is a prayer. But with all of that setting, you've given the beautiful backstory about it. Can you read something from Onyx and Beyond? And then we can dive into the book.

[00:25:06] Onyx and Beyond by Amber McBride is a story of 12-year-old Onyx who's growing up in the DMV area. In the tumultuous times of the late 60s and early 70s. There's assassinations and moon landings happening in the world. While at home, Onyx's mother is slowly succumbing to early onset dementia. And Onyx, a dreamer and lover of magic, believes he must be the one to save her. Here's Amber. I'll read the opening one just so we can get a feel for it.

[00:25:35] Onyx is a rock. And so is the moon. Kind of. My gran taught me all about the moon. And how it magics through eight phases. Then rewinds like a fancy cassette tape. My name is Onyx. And cuz of gran and cuz the moon is a rock. And kinda like my name. I watch the sky really closely. For phases. For magic. For signs. My favorite phase is the new moon. It's like a trick play in street football.

[00:26:04] Cuz the new moon is invisible. It hasn't been blown into a giant lemon yet. New moon is there clear as day. But no one sees. Kinda like hope. Or love. Or invisible wings. I read this book and like, I think I started it at night. So I think I read half of it. And then I read the other half the next day. I was like, I gotta find out what's going on. And so it really is a story of family, of heart, of how black folks love each other.

[00:26:35] And it's always that tension of how much to tell somebody who's not in the house. You keep the business in the house. Yeah. So then even if it's family, how much do you tell outside of that? What was it like collaborating with your dad and telling these stories where it's like, you're putting the business in the street, but it's also healing and helpful? Yeah. It was a process, right? Because it's like, how much do you tell?

[00:27:03] And it's also, it's not just my story. It's my dad's story. It's his sibling's story. It's my grandmother's story. And how do I tell that, you know, authentically while keeping that? What are we keeping, you know, in the house? This is our business. You know, people, black people can be private. But I think it was, it was for me, my dad's generosity and his, all his siblings are in the book and different characters and them knowing how difficult the process is.

[00:27:32] And so being really supportive overall of like what we put out there. I think that we do center Onyx the most. And so that is my dad's perspective. And so I felt really good working from that perspective because I knew how much he would say is too much. There were some themes I wrote that did not make it into the book because it felt a bit too much, a bit too on the nose of the exact conversations we've had with his mother, a bit too vulnerable perhaps to show about her. It was just honestly trusting my dad and he was my litmus for what's going to stay in the

[00:28:02] book and what's not. But also I think that anyone who has experienced a parent or a family member who has dementia understands that like stepping into that and explaining that to young people is so difficult. To explain why your grandfather doesn't remember you or something is really difficult. And when you're writing it for children and hoping that they can start to understand a little bit what's happening with a family member, I think that your heart opens because you're an adult dealing with this knowing it's impossibly difficult, right?

[00:28:32] And then a child dealing with that, it has to be 20 times more difficult because you don't necessarily have the language to understand. And so I think that there was so much grace on like how much we were going to put in the book about the process. So I think that the aspects of sticky notes, my dad leaves his mother notes every time he visits her around the house, that's hers. And then a lot of my dad's stories of like jumping out a window. I was like, they let you jump out of third story windows. I was like, what? Onto the mattress. Onto mattresses. The trust you had in those mattresses.

[00:29:02] And I was talking to him and he was like, yeah, we did that for fun. I was like, y'all wouldn't let me write a book. Also, where were you finding these random mattresses at? They were just chilling. They were like, people would throw them out and then we would just move them. And I was like, sure. Okay. I was like, meanwhile, when I'm riding a bike, y'all were freaking out. Y'all are jumping out of wind. I just thought it was really funny hearing all the stories and like the 10 cent candy, the barbershop, what you're learning in the barbershop. And so it's just so much of like the independence. I was talking about this, that young people had because like it was a different world, right?

[00:29:31] Like we were dealing with all these difficult things, integration of schools, everything like that. But like there was so much independence. You could get on the bus and people weren't worried like you were going to get kidnapped or something like that. And so much independence that he had, which allowed him to hide so much for a long time of what was going on. There's a barbershop scene on page 150 where Onyx is sleeping up so that he can get his free cut. And so he's listening to the men talk as kids are want to do when the folks is having

[00:30:00] conversation and they haven't put us out the room. And so I highlighted two passages here where he says another man adds, we peaceful, they shoot us, we violent, they shoot us. And then further down on that page, there's another person who speaks and says, if a Black man can make it from 15 to 35, he has a high chance of living an entire life. And so we're watching this young boy lose his innocence in real time just because of the realities he faces.

[00:30:29] And so reading this precocious young boy's story, it's about survival, which is why I think it feels like a prayer. Because it begins with him and his grandmother and his mother, and then it takes a turn, and then it takes another turn. And so now we're seeing him having to navigate the adult world. And yet you do this for real, for children.

[00:30:52] What is it about writing from the perspective of a young person and for young people that makes you want to distill these difficult concepts, even for adults, into ways that can be understood by the youngest of minds and imaginations? Wow. I mentioned this book gets me to period. I don't know.

[00:31:15] I was on book tour this week, and a little kid, after I had done my little talk on my book, like, runs out of line. He was supposed to be in line, and just, like, flings himself at me for a hug. And of course I hug him, because you always hug children. And he said, my grandma has dementia. And I'm really excited to read this book with my mom. And she ordered it for him because she saw, like, the premise of it.

[00:31:44] And then he said, I really, you know, I was feeling, I really hope you like it. I'm so sorry. And I was talking, and we were saying, you know, sometimes your grandma will forget, but, you know, she loves you. You can feel that love. And I don't know. I think in that moment was, is the reason. Like, I would work for years to have one kid think that they had a book that might help them through something that feels impossible. And specifically Black kids, because I think that we just never had access to this plethora of books we have now. We should have more, but it's gotten better.

[00:32:13] But, like, there used to only be, like, one book, and it was about, like, oh, it's hard to do, like, a stereotype, right? Like, it's never, like, the reality of the complexities of the Black world, of complexities of Black family. And so, like, I think that it's that same thing. It's like, I don't have children, but I'm a person who deeply loves children, all children. And I've always respected children as entire human beings as they're growing and what they believe in. And I think that they're worth all the work to try to get a story out that could be in any way helpful.

[00:32:42] And I do think, in a way, it's like our responsibility as adults to help our young people work through difficult things. And the thing I do is books, and so I feel a responsibility to that. But also, I like to tell stories that have a little bit of hope. And I think that kids can still be allowed to be dreamers, Black kids, and still should be allowed to be afraid and know that community is there. And so these books I write are really just, I know how you said it.

[00:33:12] They are like prayers. They're like little love notes to children of, I see you. I respect you. So I'm trying to show your experience. I'm trying to make sure you can see yourself in this book. And so they are hard. I think middle grade is the hardest voice. They are the ones I think require the most editing, the most sensitivity when handling the topics. And they require the most work from me. And I think I write them because I just, I love children and I want them to have access to books that can help them. There's a couple of things that I really love in the book.

[00:33:40] One of it, I think, is when Alex gets in trouble at school for fighting. Because the bully did think he had it in him. No. And he's like, oh, okay. He's like, oh, honestly, it's a little spicy. And then the other scenes I love are with the cousins. Because if nobody's going to be down for your shenanigans, it's your cousins. They will encourage you. They will help you. They will play your lookouts. They're scheming. Right? They're scheming on your grandmother to make sure that you're able to get your candy.

[00:34:09] And everybody's a lookout. Yeah. And even though in their ultimate plot, they get caught, which I get it. I loved, I was with them. I was with them so tough. Right? Yeah. I was rooting for the kids. They had a plan. And they really thought, they were like working through it. They were going to get it. They were prepared. Right?

[00:34:29] What is it like to make sure that even though you write about tough, difficult subjects, that they're always infused with levity? First of all, I come from a big family. My grandmother had 13 brothers and sisters. And all of them had kids. And my cousins, I ride with them. And so, yeah, it was just such a joy. Because Onyx does have family. And I think that that's the huge part of this story. Right?

[00:34:57] Like, he has this family, but he's still like afraid to like, is he going to tell his family? Right? And I think that those moments of levity, of knowing that you still have someone on your side, is actually the reason why Onyx has so much strength to deal with what's happening at home for so long. Because he still has outlets. You know what I mean? People who care about him. People who are, he's not completely alone. And to write that and to have those moments of being a real kid, there's always levity. Right? There's always moments of joy. The person who has clinical depression.

[00:35:25] Like, I look outside and I see two birds interacting. And I'm like, that's beautiful. That's it. We can find moments if we're looking for them. And I think that I try to look for them and make sure that they can be inserted into the book. And I think for Onyx, you know, without spoiling the end, really makes him realize that he doesn't have to deal with everything on his own. Because these people are always showing up for him. And I just really, I love that.

[00:35:51] No matter where Onyx was, whether he was at the bookstore, whether he was at the barbershop, whether he was at Grandma's house, there were people who were concerned about him and loved him. And I just love to show Black community like that. Because that is Black community. That is when, you know, someone's hurt, we're going to make meals. You're not going to have to worry about making dinner. I want to highlight that beautiful aspect. I mean, I think that that's the, one of the quotes in the beginning is Nikki Giovanni, Black love is Black wealth. And that was like, when I read that quote, I was like, no, that's the thesis.

[00:36:19] That's the thing is like, Black love can do a lot. It can heal a lot and it can elevate a lot. Amen. So with it being about Black family and, you know, aside from the little boy who flung himself at you on book tour, what is it that you want Black families to take away from this book that you've written, this novel? I hope they take what they need. Like one of the things, right? Like I write it in the most authentic way I can. I write it with a lot of love and intention.

[00:36:50] And whether that's just a good story to read with your kids, whether it's the fact that you're using this book as a learning tool because someone in your family has dementia, or whether it's just like, this is similar to how I grew up in the 1970s. And you want to share it with your kids or your grandparents want to share it. I hope that it's kind of an offering of whatever you need from this book. I hope that you receive.

[00:37:11] And I mean that for young people and the parents who might read it with them to have a moment of just some understanding, like how we know the Black community works under impossible conditions, but still finds joy within it. That's beautiful. So I want to switch to a speed round again before I let you go for the afternoon. What is your favorite book? So low-key, I've noticed that my favorite book is usually the book I'm reading. And I'm reading the new vampire book.

[00:37:41] I'm forgetting the name. My book is on top of it. Let me check. Something darkness? I'm forgetting the author. But in general, Toni Morrison. Anything Toni Morrison writes, I've read and I love. And that's my favorite author. Well, since you answered the first and the second question at once, I'm just going to keep going and say it works. Because we've established that Toni Morrison is your favorite author. Who is your favorite poet? Oh, wow. Jericho Brown is exquisite.

[00:38:09] MacArthur, genius Jericho Brown. Yes, thank you. And there's a poet named Thomas Transtrotschmer. Ten years ago, he won the Nobel Prize for literature at some point. But he never put out a lot of collections. I think he only has three or four collections. He's passed away. But absolutely love, love his work. And I also really like Jack Gilbert. Name a poet that you think people don't know enough about. I would say like every single Black poet I know, I want everyone to be there, like to know more about.

[00:38:37] Mahogany Brown is a very well-known Black poet. But I don't know if everyone reads her poetry collection. And her poetry collections are a staple for me as well. I really, really love Kiki Pastero as well. Which is like something, so it's almost like poetry nonfiction. Which is so talented. And so as someone who writes in verse, what do you think, if you think there is, the difference between poetry and spoken word? I'm one of the people who don't think that there's a difference. Which has been fun to debate in academia.

[00:39:08] But no, what I mean, and what I mean by that is like they serve their purpose, right? I think that spoken word poetry at first is meant to be performed. But then you still gain something from it if you're reading it. Whereas I think that poetry, quote on the page, is meant to kind of be read, but also read out loud. They all have different aspects. The difference is just the performance aspect. So I think that like the way that spoken word poetry is read is a lot different.

[00:39:37] Often memorized also, which is very impressive. And then the way that poets on the page are working is that they're expecting you to be able to sit with the poem more. And so the way that repetition is used is different. So I think that they're the same. They just have different purposes. If money were no object, where would you go? What would you do? And where would you live? I think I would move to Ireland for a little while. Have a second home there. But in reality, I love where I am so much. I really love the country. So I would be the Irish countryside or somewhere else just to have a different like vibe in the country.

[00:40:07] But like I keep bees and I have bees here and I would miss them. So I'd be like, what are they doing without me? So maybe Ireland. Yeah. Name three things on your bucket list. First thing on my bucket list, I have clinical depression. So it has always been to just keep going, which I've been doing pretty good at lately. I want to write a full fantasy series, which I'm working on.

[00:40:33] And then I'd love to collaborate with a writer I really respect on a poetry collection. No, a poetry novel in verse for adults. I've been working on this idea for a while and I just haven't found a poet that works well. I work well with, but I'd love to write something with a poet I really respect. That's moving into like novel in verse range for adults. And I want it to be a love story because I don't really write love stories often. What is your favorite sound?

[00:40:58] When you're in the middle of a field and there's a breeze and the plants are moving together and it almost sounds like an ocean, but it's like a little rustier. And I like that like little authentic kind of like old school sound of grass as opposed to ocean. It's my favorite sound in the world. Yes. And if you were a color, what color would you be and why? Black. And I'm really obsessed with the color black.

[00:41:24] Black with like a teeny, teeny bit of emerald green like haloing the outside of it. I get it. Like a glow. I see it. All right. So our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wish you would have written. The Bluest Eye. Because I would write it and then be like, I don't need to do anything else ever again. We've done it. Nailed it. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it?

[00:41:55] There's a book by one of my friends called Disappearing House by Ali Melanico. And I love the ending of the book, but I would change it. I don't want to give away the end. It's a children's book. It's a middle grade book. So the book is about a little girl who had cancer. And she's coming up on her like five-year no symptoms. But she starts to think she's having symptoms almost because she's frightened. And so she enters this haunted house.

[00:42:24] And the haunted house is kind of like a metaphor for her fears. And she has to go through all these steps. And the end, it kind of shows that the fear is herself. And I love that ending. But I think I would want more specifically, I'd love to have her friends with her at the end of that. There's a part where her friend is part of the book. But I think I really would love for the friend to be there. Because I do think it's another book about community.

[00:42:53] And then name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught. And why? I think what's overrated is the idea that we use the same books constantly. Like we can, Animal Farm is good, but there's other books that we can start inserting to teach as well. Right? And so The Giver is brilliant. But like there are other books that we can start bringing into the conversation. So I think that some of the books that are by people who have passed away are excellent.

[00:43:20] I just think that we can start realizing that books by people who are alive are also excellent. And we can start calling those classics specifically books by people of color. Like I read The Poet X and that experience. Like you know what I mean? That feels like a classic to me. But it's not going to be taught like a classic. Right? It's not going to be taken seriously like a classic. I think of some books that Kwame Alexander at Crossover has written. And that feels like a classic. And it's taught, to be fair, really well. But like I don't know that we put that word of classic with Black authors that are still alive often.

[00:43:49] So I wouldn't negate the work that other authors have done because I think that it is good work. I would say we need to add more authors or Black authors into that fold of classic and teach it more. I think that we don't teach Zora very much. Like Dust Tracks and the Roads is a classic but not taught as much. Nearly as much as it should be. Right? And like so I'm getting professory in my answer. But that's fair. No, but I really appreciate it because this is a deep narrative conversation about why the canon needs to be more expansive.

[00:44:18] Or why we should just abolish the canon altogether. Right. Which I'm here for. And so my final question for you today. When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors. What would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind? I just hope people talk about me still in my books, honestly. Like I think that like you know this. You put so much of your heart and so much of your soul into a book. And so like whatever they're saying, even if it's critique, I'm like, hey, you're talking about me.

[00:44:48] That's good. But I do hope they say that she was authentic to who she was as a Black queer woman. Like I never want to pretend to be anything else. And that all of her books felt like love stories in some way to Black people. Because in the many different ways that we love, not just romantic love. And yeah, I just I hope that's the essence of what I put out and how that people study what I put out. Big thank you to Amber McBride for being here today on Black and Published.

[00:45:17] Make sure you check out Amber's latest middle grade novel, Onyx and Beyond. Out now from Thewell and Friends. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you like this episode and want more Black and Published, head to our Instagram page.

[00:45:42] It's at Black and Published and that's B-L-K and Published. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Amber about the artist she likes to reference to convince kids that poetry is still relevant. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Bernice L. McFadden, author of the memoir First Born Girls. Pandemic hits. I'm home with my mom in Brooklyn.

[00:46:12] Everything is crazy. Ambulances every night. And I'm like, this is the end. And I started thinking about, well, you know, I have so many cousins that I've not seen in years who don't really know the history. Because the way I learned the history is because I was raised with my cousins and my great aunts and my grandmother and grandparents.

[00:46:38] And one of the things we did was sit around the table and tell stories. And so these stories I heard over and over and over and over again. And so I was like, I need to write this down. That's next week on Black and Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young.

[00:47:05] Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.