Living Cheek by Jowl with Lisa Smith

[00:00:00] What's good, family? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, the host of Black & Published podcast and the author of the novel The Seven Daughters of Dupree. This historical fiction novel is about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations and is told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. I have an excerpt from the novel for you today.

[00:00:22] The audiobook is narrated by Bonnie Turpin and this scene you're about to listen to is from chapter one where the character Tatiana, affectionately known as Tati, writes a poem to her father. Dear Daddy, I'm 14 now, Legs brown, Same for my hair and eyes. Mimi say she worried cause my hips round.

[00:00:49] It don't matter. Ain't no boys calling. Phone don't ring. My line don't sing. I just pose in the mirror. Mama say I'm looking for the wrong kind of attention, but I just be looking at the symmetry of my face. Trying to see yours, but hers I can't erase.

[00:01:12] Oh, I forgot to mention. I think I want to pierce my nose, but Mama would have a fit, I suppose. And I can't do something drastic like that. Can't alter my appearance until you get back. Or until we meet, at least. I just wanted to let you know what to be on the lookout for. Your little girl, maybe a bit bigger. Chocolate, like you, I think.

[00:01:41] When Mama's drunk, she cussed me and say I got your mahogany brown. Just thought you'd want to know what I look like now. Love, Tati. March 26th, 1995. P.S. Today's my birthday. I hope you enjoyed that scene from The Seven Daughters of Dupree, narrated by Bonnie Turpin.

[00:02:09] The novel is available everywhere books are sold and in whatever format you prefer. Hardcover, ebook, audiobook, and large print. So, if you can, please consider getting a copy of The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. Now, let's get to the episode. No, I never had any ambition to write a novel. That just seemed far too grand and big and, you know, that was far too scary.

[00:02:38] What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Lisa Smith, author of the novel, Jamaica Road. It's a coming-of-age story that spans 12 years in the lives of Connie and Daphne, who wrestled with their identity as British and Jamaican at a time of great racial unrest in the UK.

[00:03:07] There was no concept of being Black and British. You know, these young Black people were all West Indians because their parents were West Indian, so they were too. And I just found that extraordinary. This was like what we've been telling you, Mum and Dad. You came to this country to give us a better life. But actually, for the people of my sister's generation, or my sister's age, things were not getting better. Lisa. Lisa's turn toward the page comes after a long career as a documentary filmmaker.

[00:03:34] Why she decided to write a novel during maternity leave and how she finished it after chemo. Plus, the real life do-over that she gave herself through the characters in her novel. And, in exploring hard themes of racial terrorism and intimate partner violence, how Lisa made sure that in the end, readers were rooting for the love story at the heart of the novel. That and more is next, when Black & Published continues.

[00:04:19] Lisa, when did you know that you were a writer? Oh my goodness. I wanted to be a writer since I was about eight years old, because I always loved reading. And where we lived on the council housing estate, there was a little library. And I wanted to go there so frequently that my mum basically just said, OK, you can just take yourself there. So it was the first place I was able to go to by myself.

[00:04:44] And I was there so frequently that the librarian, which was very, very sweet, actually allowed me to take out three books a week rather than two. I know, woohoo. So I always loved reading. I mean, I used to always, every summer during the long summer holiday, I'd sit down with my little exercise book and say, I'm going to write a novel.

[00:05:06] And basically, I get two or three pages in and then want to go out to play or watch TV instead. Because I discovered very early on that writing books is hard. It's hard work. And I just wasn't really down for it. Has that changed from like eight years old to however old you are now in the decades that, you know, you sit down and you know, I'm a writer. I'm going to write this book.

[00:05:35] But you know what? I'd rather watch TV. Well, I didn't actually properly seriously start writing again because English lessons stopped being about creative writing. They started being about literary criticism and how to pass exams and writing essays and things like that. And plus, I'm British Jamaican. So my mum came to the UK in 1960s, along with my grandmother who came over like slightly later on.

[00:06:01] And to them it was like, well, you come to this country for a better life. And we want you to be lawyers and doctors. My paternal grandmother always said, Lisa, become a nurse or better still a midwife because women will always want picnic. So basically for them it was about never ever being out of work. And so the idea of being a writer is like, what's that? Eh? Really? What?

[00:06:25] You know, you want ideally a job that has a regular salary and a good pension. So I went to university. I studied English literature. They all thought I was going to become a teacher. But I basically was determined to make films instead. So for years I was a documentary filmmaker and that was my way of telling stories.

[00:06:47] To this day, whenever my mum talks about my job working in television, she would basically say, oh, well, she spent some time working for the BBC. She still has no idea what it was actually that goes into making documentaries. So she'd just say, no, shorthand. Oh, she used to work for the BBC. Because everybody knows what the BBC is. Exactly. Particularly if you are, you know, a Caribbean immigrant, everyone knows the BBC, that's shorthand.

[00:07:13] So I was still writing for myself on the down low. And basically it was having my daughter and basically having some time off work and space to actually kind of think, you know what? I might just do something to keep my brain ticking over when I'm not just, you know, feeding my child or walking my child or put my child to sleep. And I actually signed up to adult education classes in my spare time.

[00:07:39] I actually signed up to do Spanish and I thought the last minute I'll do some creative writing as well. The Spanish lasted about six weeks and then the creative writing just continued. And now I can't speak Spanish, but I've written a novel. It's a fair trade off. And I love this story. The, I've had a baby, so I've got some downtime from like making documentary films. So like, why not, you know, take some adult education classes and write a book? Oh.

[00:08:06] And now I'm making it sound really, really kind of like it was a blissful, blissful maternity leave. It really, really wasn't. It was such a seismic shift from going to television, working really like long hours to actually doing childcare. And I went into it thinking, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I can handle this. I've worked 12 hour days, but actually realized that when you're working on a production, those 12 hour days come to an end. When you're a mother, they don't. They just carry on and on and on.

[00:08:36] As someone who has written all of their books while a parent and who used to work as a television news producer, I do understand what you were doing. And that is not as easy as it sounds. So by no means, like, I feel like you're the same kind of crazy as me. Like, yeah, I'm on maternity leave. So why not write a book? Um, but when you took those adult education classes, was it always Jamaica road that you were tinkering with? No, not at all. No, I never had any ambition to write a novel.

[00:09:06] That just seemed far too grand and big and, you know, no, that was, that's far too scary. I was basically just doing little short stories. And actually it was in a short story writing class where the idea for Jamaica road came. That was one of those occasions when the teacher said, I want you to imagine an outsider and then describe this outsider.

[00:09:29] And basically this image of a boy who attended my primary school way back in the late 70s just fell into my mind. And I started to write the description of him. And that description was a tall boy, really badly duressed, very gangly, with a really strong Jamaican accent. And while I was writing it, I was actually writing it with the voice that later became Daphne in my mind. Now her horror, her alarm, but also her fascination, her intrigue.

[00:09:58] One of the traits I gave Daphne, like me, I never heard a child my own age speak with a Jamaican accent. All the Jamaicans around me were adults. So that's where the character of Connie just fell into my head. But I didn't want to write it. I set it to one side when I was working on other things. I thought, you know, that's just an exercise. But there was something about those characters, that narrative voice and the image of that boy. They just kept coming back to me and coming back to me. So I thought, okay, I will write a short story about it.

[00:10:26] But the short story just kept getting longer and longer and longer until one of my friends actually said, I think this needs a broader canvas, she said. Oh, so sweet. Yeah, so sweet. Because people could say, oh, what about this? What about this? What are they going to do now? And I keep thinking, well, I can come to that. I'll be just like, keep jump cutting, you know, like you can in short stories. But they were saying that doesn't work. We just want to know more about these characters.

[00:10:52] And so that's why I kind of meandered into a novel. And so from that exercise to the publication of Jamaica Road, how long was that? Oh, God, it took seven years all in all. Because life happens. I'm a parent. And for a while I was ill as well. So basically, it just took a while to get there. But I was determined to get there. Seven years really isn't that long when I first...

[00:11:22] Oh my gosh, really? I thought you were saying... No. No, no, no, no. What are you doing? Seven years isn't that long. Like my very first episode of this podcast when I launched, the author had been working on the story for 14 years. I've had a lot of people 14 years, 20 years working on one novel. What do you think it was about Connie and Daphne's story that wouldn't let you go? And for the listeners, Connie is short for Cornelius.

[00:11:48] I think it's because it got me thinking about my childhood. About what it was like growing up in this particular part of South East London at the time, which was the late 70s and through the 80s. I mean, in my novel, it is the 80s and the early 90s. I was thinking about it and thinking about the kind of events that were happening and what I remember of those events.

[00:12:15] And I thought, well, just out of curiosity, I'll just do a little bit of research. And I had my memories. I was talking to my sister about what she remembers about the fashion, the music and all of that kind of thing. But being a documentary filmmaker, I thought, well, I'll go to some primary sources. I'll get some newspapers and just get a feel for the times. And I was astonished by the level of racism and anti-immigrant feeling there was back then. I think I must have blanked it out.

[00:12:44] I was just astonished by how much there was and how it felt like we hadn't really moved on. We've moved on a little bit, but not that much. And I just thought, what was it like for me growing up around them? What would it be like for these two characters growing up around that? And so that was part of the spur, why I wanted to, I guess, delve deeper into this story. Another thing, when I thought back to this boy who'd appeared in my class, where we lived, as I say, it was a very white, very working class area.

[00:13:12] And while I'm not saying everybody who lived there who was white was a racist, there were a lot of racists who lived in that area and they were very racist. I remember being Daphne, being that kind of character who just keep your head down, try not to make waves, try not to be noticed. But this boy in real life who turned up didn't. He got into fights. He would cuss people off. And so I didn't become friends with him. I kind of just thought, you're too much bother.

[00:13:42] I can't deal with that kind of attention, that level of attention. I'll just stay where I am. And they didn't stay very long. I mean, I think he and his family just moved away. They just moved somewhere else. But I thought about what would have happened if we had become friends. And so that's what I wanted to do with these two characters. What if they became friends? That's a really long answer to your question.

[00:14:05] No, but I love it because it's almost like on the page and in the fiction, you get a do-over of that point in your life where maybe you wished you would have had more courage to stand up for yourself, especially against the racists and the skinheads who were around. And be more like this unapologetic Jamaican boy who had the thick Jamaican accent and didn't give a damn about it. And was very proud of himself. I love that.

[00:14:32] And so then once you did finish the novel, what was your publication process like? Oh, goodness. Well, basically, I wrote a short story. I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2017. And at the time I'd enrolled to do an MA at my local university in creative writing. And I was flying high. I'd written a few chapters of Jamaica Road. But then I was diagnosed with that. And so then had to take time off for treatment.

[00:15:01] And I was furious. I was so furious as well as scared. And so I wrote a short story for a competition and submitted it to this competition on the day before the deadline. And it turned out basically that I won that short story national competition. And at the ceremony, I met a publisher who was one of the judges and also an agent who had been invited and she turned up and she got chatting. And the publisher said, are you doing anything else?

[00:15:31] And the agent said, are you doing anything else? I said, well, I'm having cancer treatment at the moment. So I'm not really doing anything. So they just said, I'll just, you know, well done. The story thing is terrific. Keep in touch. And so when I finished my treatment, I went back to do my MA. I submitted my thesis and did okay. And I got in touch with the agent, Nicola Chang. And I said, well, I'm doing this now. I finished my MA.

[00:15:58] I got a distinction and I will start working on the novel again. She's like, that's fine. I've actually moved agencies now. I'm with this agency. But keep in touch and let me know when you have something to send. And so, you know, it just took me ages. I mean, the long and short of it is my agent who I have now moved agencies three times before I had something to submit to her. But she kept in touch every time she moved. She sent me an email to say, I'm still interested.

[00:16:28] Let me know when you've got something for me to read. And I mean, have her in the acknowledgements. And I say thank you for being in my corner. But, you know, time longer than a rope, as we say in Jamaica. I got to stop because like, I feel like you're like glossing over things that are standing out. So like you were on maternity leave, did adult education classes and kept doing them. Did this exercise that planted the seed for the novel. Got cancer, went through chemo, recovered, went back to school and got your MA.

[00:16:58] Mm hmm. It's a Jamaican my good in me, man. It's a lot going on. And it's just like, yeah, this is normal. Like, you know, have a baby, start these classes, start a book. I'm okay. I'm a survivor. You know what? Let me go get like this degree real quick. And yeah, now I'm gonna write this book. It's the immigrant mentality. I just kind of like. Oh, dear. Yeah.

[00:17:28] I mean, I'm saying working as hard as a Jamaican. I know it's a slur, but like, there you have it. Yeah. And it's so incredible how people like to think migrants are lazy. Not that I'm a migrant. Of course, I'm not a migrant. But you know, it's that kind of, you know, you know what I'm talking about.

[00:17:46] Well, no, it's the stereotype of migrants being lazy, of undocumented immigrants being lazy, of black people being lazy, migrants or citizens in either America or the UK. And that kind of othering and xenophobia is why we're in the political climate that we are in today.

[00:18:07] And you touch on some of that socially in Jamaica road with the presence of not only the races in the school and the skinheads around, but also these newspaper clippings that you include and chronicling the deaths of black teens at a house party where there was a fire. And the brutality that they faced from police officers in this hotbed of anti-black racism at this time in London.

[00:18:36] When you incorporated all of that into this story of friendship and love between these two characters of Connie and Daphne, was there any pushback by your agent or by your publisher that it was like too much? No, it's interesting because going back to the publisher who I met at the short story prize event, she became my publisher slash editor, basically. And she's a black woman. She's formidable. Charmaine Lovegrove. She's fantastic.

[00:19:03] And she got it straight away. She's understood what I was trying to say because, you know, she was also from South London. I think she's a generation behind me. But as we say, not a lot has changed. There is still no systemic racism in the police forces, in education and just in society in general.

[00:19:24] So no, she got it. And it's interesting enough, my US editor, who again is fantastic, Maris Dyer, I was bolder by the fact that she seemed to get it as well. I mean, she's a white woman, lives in America, in New York. So I was really, really fortunate with my editors and the fact that just really got behind the book and the story that I was trying to tell.

[00:19:47] What was one of those notes that you got from your editors that you bristled at that actually was in the best interest of the novel? Oh God, there's so many. I think the one that stands out probably is Tobias, actually. Because Tobias, as you know, is a villain. He is a villain. He is Connie's stepfather. And he is an abusive, nasty man.

[00:20:17] And I think during my first drafts of him, he was just straight up nasty. Because I spoke to friends of mine who'd been in households where there was abuse going on. And I'm thankful for the insights that they gave me. So I just wanted to go in hard. And of course, that's not necessarily how they roll. And one of the things that Charmaine pointed out was, she said, well, why is Alfie with him? Why is she with him? Of course, that's a question that we always ask. Why do women stay?

[00:20:47] Why? And you have to remember that actually, there is a side of him, whether we like it or not, that is seductive. That is caring. Or at least purports to be caring. It's not really caring. It's actually controlling. But it comes across as caring. So bringing in things like making him say things like, well, I just want Connie to be an upright black guy. And a strong black guy who's well-mannered and considerate. That's why I discipline him.

[00:21:13] It's that reasonableness that I just couldn't quite write in the first draft. And basically, they kept pushing me to kind of say, we need to actually, you know, you can't have, as a writer, you can't have your prejudices or wear them quite so openly. You have to actually not love all your characters. But none of your characters actually think that they are a bad person. They are. Yeah. Tobias is very complex.

[00:21:40] He is a villain, as most people are used to hearing me say on this podcast, a trash-ass man. But in the rendering of him, you do see how he charms and seduces people around him, despite what they think they know about him or even what they do. And how he maintains control over his family until finally the gloves come off, so to speak.

[00:22:06] And I think I'm going to put a pin in that, and I'm going to let you read something from Jamaica Road so that we can get deeper and deeper into Daphne, Connie, and all of their family members. Jamaica Road by Lisa Smith is a coming-of-age novel that spans 12 years in the lives of Connie and Daphne. Daphne, a first-generation British Jamaican girl, is initially put off by Cornelius Connie Small, who was born in Jamaica and arrives in South London fully himself.

[00:22:32] But as they worm their way into each other's lives, what develops is a love between friends and their families that can't keep away from each other, even when they try, and especially in their darkest times. Here's Lisa. I'm going to read from the second chapter, to the start of the second chapter. So it's the end of the school day, Connie's first day at school, and it hasn't gone particularly great for him.

[00:23:00] So this is the first time that he and Daphne are alone, and they're walking home from school. It was Friday, and my cousins had gone to hang out with friends after school. I stood alone at the Pelican Crossing. The cold was seeping through the middle of my scarf. I wound it round my neck once more, doubling the thickness. Then I pushed the button again. You're a wild corn by yourself, Connie said, arriving at my side.

[00:23:28] Yeah, I replied without looking at him. I willed the green man to appear. We haven't arranged myself from lunch, you want some? No, thank you. All day, I'd been trying to be helpful without giving him or anyone else the impression that just because we were both black, we were the same. And he'd spoken to him when it was absolutely necessary during lessons.

[00:23:56] And I'd expected that after his running with Mark Barrett, we'd follow my example of how to behave. But Connie had made no attempt to keep his head down. He'd volunteered to hand out history textbooks, collected our science test sheets, and put his hand up to answer every maths question the teacher sent us.

[00:24:18] When the traffic lights finally changed, I walked across the street and into the park, just managing to give a rest of Connie's leisurely strides. There were thick pivot hedges around the park's entrance, so you couldn't be easily seen from the road. I decided that I could afford to be a bit friendlier now we're further from school. Perhaps I could make you understand the rules.

[00:24:46] I was deciding how to begin when Connie spoke up. So, you're an English girl? Yeah, well, sort of. I was born here. My family come from Jamaica. My mum arrived in 1962, before independence. You ever been to Jamaica? No, but Grandma's told me loads about it. She'd come over in the 70s when I was just a baby. When did you get here? I asked. Weeks ago. I miss still no warm-up yet.

[00:25:16] Connie chuckled. A deep, husky sound. His shoulders rising and falling in time of his laughter. There was a dimple on his right cheek I'd noticed before. I smiled. Then, quickly, covered my mouth and gave a fake cough. Althea had tings to start up before me could have started school. Who's Althea? Me mother. How come you call her Althea? Connie shrugged.

[00:25:44] I call her that from when me was smart. She say, when me call her Mama, it make her feel old. Me little brother call her Mommy, though. But him too, so she didn't mind that much. Althea's a top-notch hairdresser. She planned to open up her own salon and call it Noir, which means black in French. At the moment, she worked for a dragon named Mrs. Samuel's, but she determined to have her own place in the next three years by the time she reached 30.

[00:26:13] What? What? Your mum's only 27? Nearly. Her birthday's not till July. My birthday's November 28. When you born? May? You Gemini or Cancer? I don't know. Gemini, I think. Good. An air sign. Althea say fire and air get on well. My mum said only idiots believed in horoscopes.

[00:26:42] But I didn't say that to Connie. Thank you. So this novel covers 12 years in the lives of Daphne and Connie. And so we see them go from like secondary school in the UK, middle school in the United States. And we follow them over the course of them getting to know one another and really putting themselves into each other's lives. They become great inconveniences to each other, but it's how they survive.

[00:27:10] What was it that made you interested in taking their relationship over that specific span of time? I think the 80s kind of chose me because, as I say, the idea came and it was about this character at this time. And then once I started giving them a story and doing the research around that time, I found that, particularly from the newspapers, it was fascinating what was going on.

[00:27:36] And I couldn't not include these events because it would have had such an effect on being young black people then. So things like the New Crossfire. I mean, I lived not far from where that tragedy took place. And on the estate, my eldest sister was of an age where she knew people who knew people who were there. Literally, when it happened, the news rippled across the estate.

[00:28:04] I mean, people, parents and young people were horrified and also terrified. And it's extraordinary how much we thought about it, how much we talked about it when it first happened. And looking back now as an adult, I can see how little it was discussed in the mainstream. When I came back to do the research, there's a little column inch in the Times newspaper where they referred to the young people who died as West Indians for a start,

[00:28:33] which was like West Indians, they were British, they were born here. But of course, then there was no concept of being black and British. You know, these young black people were all West Indians because their parents were West Indians. So they were too. And I just found that extraordinary. So I thought, well, what else would have been happening then? And I remembered the Negro Massacre Action Society. I remembered the Black People's Day of Action because my cousins did actually bunk off school and college and go.

[00:29:03] They went because certainly for young people of my cousins ages, they were like teenagers then. I was only about 10. This was like, this is our moment. This is what we've been telling you, mum and dad. And we can't just keep our heads down and get on with stuff. No, our lives are not getting better. You came to this country to give us a better life. But actually, for the people of my sister generation, or my sister's age, things were not getting better.

[00:29:29] You know, the 80s in Britain, there was mass unemployment because the country was in recession. And history tells us whenever there's mass unemployment, people blame who they perceive to be, the incomers, the others for the unemployment. You know, we're out of jobs because you lot are all here taking our jobs, sucking up our social security and all of that. So for young Black people then, it was just, yeah, there was unemployment. But it was more likely to be unemployed if you were young and Black.

[00:29:59] You're more likely to be picked on by the police if you were young and Black. So all of these events felt key to me that I had to include. So the New Crossfire, the Black People's Day of Action, and that led up to the first Brixton Uprising in 1985. And that was a terrible, terrible case of a woman being shot by the police in her own house. And she was innocent. But of course, I'm telling you that you... It's a Tuesday in America.

[00:30:30] So I just wanted that span of time, partly because of the events I thought were really important to include. And also I wanted to see them growing up. And, you know, I ended in 1993 with them being adults. But also I thought by that time we did all breathe a sigh of relief when we left the 80s. We thought things have changed now in a new decade. But of course, you know, it really, really hadn't changed at all. Young people were still being murdered. Yeah.

[00:30:58] So you mentioned it as a quick line that you said in the reading. And you talk about all the racial tensions and the uprisings of the 80s. And Daphne's first love is a white boy whose brother is a racist. Ma'am, why? Because I was struggling. I was like, girl, don't fall in love with the white racist boy. Like, what do we do? Is it love, though? I don't know.

[00:31:26] But this is one of the things that I bristled at with regards to my publishers. But one of the things they kept interrogating, and rightly so, was this relationship with Mark Barrett. Why does she like him? Why does she like him? Why does Alfie like Tobias? Why does Daphne like Mark Barrett? And the only thing I could really come up with is the fact that that's just South London or any kind of area where there is multi cultures living close to give a cheat by jail.

[00:31:55] That's what happens. I grew up in a white working class area where there were some black people, but not many of us. And what I found interesting at school is that we would meet kids who came from very racist backgrounds. Yet for some reason, they didn't necessarily completely believe everything their parents were telling them. But the fact of the matter is, when you're living cheat by jail like that, and you actually are mixing with other races,

[00:32:20] you don't necessarily, if you're white and from a racist family, necessarily carry on feeling the same way your family do. That's in the book where even in the end, Mark and Daphne obviously don't end up together, but they meet each other once they're adults. And Mark is a grown man calling his daughter a half-kid. That was like, it's your whole child, and you're still slurring her. Yeah, exactly. You literally chose to have a mixed child, and you're still slurring your own child just because that's the way that you speak.

[00:32:48] But people still say that. I went to university in Liverpool, and I was amazed by how many people of dual heritage would refer to themselves as half-caste. I was thinking, what? But that was just the language. That was just how they would refer to themselves, and that was in the early 90s. I was like, what? Beyond those complicated interracial relationships that we've talked about a bit,

[00:33:12] is there an accuracy to the class differences between British-Jamaicans who are born in the UK and who are therefore British citizens, and Jamaicans who migrate over where there's a stark difference, like we're not the same, and we don't, like, I wouldn't say they don't mix, but just the class difference there. No, I don't think so now. I think with Daphne, I think for her it was a fear of...

[00:33:40] The thing that I've discovered whilst writing the book is that it's so much about belonging as well. That's one of the things that really comes through. It's about belonging. And even though Connie is the one who's the migrant, he actually knows himself, whereas Daphne is struggling to figure out where she belongs. Do I belong here? Do I belong there? In the excerpt I just read, he says, so you're an English girl? I was like, yeah, well, sort of. Because at that time, you weren't allowed to actually be Black and British.

[00:34:09] You weren't allowed... I mean, I still to this day struggle to call myself English, which I think is bizarre. But for me, I find it really hard to say, yeah, I'm English. My daughter has no problem saying that she's English. But growing up, for me, it just Englishness just kind of felt something that didn't belong to me. I couldn't own that. One of the things that connects Connie and Daphne are their families. Daphne lives with her mother, and her grandmother is around her aunts and uncles and cousins.

[00:34:38] But she doesn't, in the beginning, know her father. And then Connie is coming over with his mother. And as you talk about in the excerpt, she was a young mother when she had him. This man that she's now with, Tobias, is his stepdad and treats him horribly, even though Tobias has also had a child with his mother, Althea, and Connie has a brother. And so that connection is one of the things that binds them.

[00:35:03] Why did you want to explore that kind of questionable parentage between the two of them? In most writers, you kind of start with your own life. And in my own family, my dad was, well, I can't say dad really, I'd say father, because he wasn't really a dad in that sense. He was someone who had lots of children with various different women and didn't really stick around for either of them. It's fairly common.

[00:35:30] So it just felt natural to me to include that, as did the idea of them living, Daphne and Alma, her mum, living in the house with the uncle's auntie, cousin's grandmother. Because, again, that's something that I brought from my own experience. That's how we lived when I was very little. And then we moved out into a council estate. Family was really, really important. It's really funny, while writing, it started off with Connie and Daphne.

[00:35:59] And then more characters just joined and joined and joined, and I had this very large cast. But the family was always really, really important, because intergenerational living was really common among Caribbean migrants who came to this country. Partly because family members came to family members. And also you just needed that bond. You needed people to stick up for you, because nobody else was. I mean, the police certainly weren't going to if anything happened to you. And you needed somewhere to live, because there was, invariably, people weren't going to rent their houses to you.

[00:36:29] So somebody would get a house, and they would bring other people over to come and live with them. And that was still common in the 70s. So it was a really important thing to include. I think the similarity of Connie and Daphne both not having fathers, I thought, was something... They needed to have similarities. They're brought to you. But what I like is the fact that, for Connie, it's like, well, it would have been nice of her dad, but I haven't got a dad. But, you know, so what? You know, whereas for Daphne... So there's a real stigma.

[00:36:58] There's a real kind of, like, shame. Partly because, I don't know, she's quite prim sometimes with Daphne. But I think also because of that Englishness, the fact that in Jamaica, it is not more acceptable, which is more common for blokes not to be around. Whereas in a white working class area, like the one Daphne lives in, like the one I was brought up in, it was like your mum and your dad. And that was that. You have other family members in my family, like uncles, like grandparents,

[00:37:27] to make up for the fact that you don't have this nuclear thing. You don't need the nuclear thing. You have an extended family. Whereas I think it's very British to be nuclear. One of the things that I noticed as a thread throughout the book, and even in you just speaking about their families, and the fact that Daphne has, you know, this very big extended family, but Connie is just like him, his mother, his brother, and that man. Is that part of what I think the book is getting at

[00:37:55] is the sacrifices that families make for one another. And then also how they become accountable to each other, because you know these people have done so much for you. They're also counting on you to not necessarily pay it back, but to like not bring shame to the family in a certain way. And to kind of maybe like stick up for the family, like know that this is your root, this is your home. Was that in your mind as you were writing Connie, Althea, Tobias, and the brother story, especially at the end?

[00:38:24] That's the thing about Connie, which, you know, just almost breaks my heart. The fact that he does take on so much. He is a child at the start of the novel. He's 12. And yet he's there cooking and cleaning and doing chores, as opposed to just making his bed or something like that. Or playing football on the pitch. Or playing football in the park, exactly. So the thing about their families, they have Valerie.

[00:38:51] And Valerie is another character who kind of just fell into my mind. I just thought Alfie needed an outlet. She needed a friend. And Valerie is an older woman. I mean, she doesn't act like an older woman, but she is an older woman. She's more mature. And her husband is a pensioner. And I think that is a really useful outlet for that family, because she is the one who looks at Tobias and just says, uh-uh, he is a wrong-un. And she'll keep telling Alfie, he is a wrong-un. And see what Alfie hears. But ultimately, she's not going to just berate Alfie. She's going to support her. She's going to help her.

[00:39:20] She's going to give her money when she needs it and someone to listen to. But I think in that, Valerie and her husband provide an outlet for Alfie that Daphne had in her grandmother and her aunts and uncles. And so, again, you still see this large community of Jamaican families caring for one another, especially as Alfie goes through the thick of abuse with Tobias until the very end where Connie is taking on so much that he has sacrificed his love for Daphne, for his mother and his brother,

[00:39:50] and is happy to do it, even though he's risking losing so much more that he doesn't even know about. And I don't want to spoil it, so I won't tell. But I think he's become so used to it. He's become so used to that role of being the parent in that relationship that he just thinks... And also guilt. Did you say guilt about not being there for his younger brother,

[00:40:19] for having his younger brother go through a lot of what he went through? So, yeah, I mean, Connie's a sweetheart, man. He is really sweet. I was kind of mad at him when he stayed in Jamaica. I understood it, but I was like, dude. But I'm like, I get it. You gotta stay. I love the novel. I really, really did. I love that it's written in patois for a large amount of it. Like, it really brings a richness to the story. What is it that you want readers to take away from this novel?

[00:40:46] I really want readers to be just immersed and held in this world that I've created. You know, I work bloody hard on it. I want people to actually be absorbed and to love the characters as much as I love them. And I think the thing about the patois, I'd like people not to be put off by it. You know? Interestingly enough, I was at a book event and the host of the book event was an American woman. It was white.

[00:41:16] And she said, I was reading this. And you know what? I can read Jamaican. Who knew? That wasn't a barrier to her to actually understand the lives of these people. And, you know, yes, the book is about issues. It's about racism. It's about just horrible things. But it's also about friendship and family. And it's about love. So I guess that's what I want people to come away with.

[00:41:45] You know, I put them through a lot, but it's also about love. It is. And I love a good love story, especially when it's all messy, like the one between Connie and Daphne. Before I let you go for the afternoon, as it is in London, I want to do a speed round and a game. What is your favourite book? Beloved. Who is your favourite author? Right now, my favourite author has to be Bernadine Evaristo. I think she is marvellous for her writing, for the range of what she writes, and also her activism. I think she's fantastic.

[00:42:15] Who is your favourite artist? Any genre or medium? Steve McQueen, the filmmaker. What is your favourite TV show or film, since you worked in film as well? A film I often watch. It perks me up and it just makes me feel kind of like... Honestly, it's... I mean, it sounds daft, but it's Black Panther. There's something about it. It's that kind of what if. What if it was true? What if it was true? It would just be so amazing. So yeah, Black Panther. It makes sense.

[00:42:44] If Connie and Daphne got the screen treatment, who would you want to play then? Oh my God, that would be my dream if they got the screen treatment. Right. Well, who... I know I have Idris Elba play Tobias. We love him! Why would you do this to him? Oh my God! Oh, but I think he could give real kind of like, you know, I think he could really snarl. And I'm thinking, you know, of Stringer Bell when, you know, back in the day. I know Idris Elba can be evil and can snarl, but like, I don't want to hate him. Like, I don't want to hate Idris Elba

[00:43:14] the way I hate Daniel with the colour purple. All right, okay. Yeah, I get you. But most actors, they love to get their teeth into something like that they don't know. I think the actor, which is the reading for the audio version of Jamaica Road is Sapphire Joy. And I think she'd be really good on screen if Sapphire Joy could be Daphne. Connie, goodness me, I don't know any tall black actors who are young. Damson Idris? He's too old. Yeah. He could play older Connie,

[00:43:44] but I don't know young Connie. Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of young Connie either. I think John Boyega's a bit old now and also not sure he's tall enough. Although having said that, if he wanted to do it, I'd be down with that. I'd go see John Boyega as Connie. What do you think is the best book to movie or book to series adaptation? I liked the adaptation of Mr. Loverman. Bendy and Evaristo's. That was fantastic. I thought it was so good. If money were no object, where would you go?

[00:44:13] What would you do? And where would you live? I'd love to spend more time in Jamaica, but I'd miss London as well. I do love the theatre and going out and, you know, the voices. Name three things on your bucket list. I'd like a scooter, a motor scooter. My husband has banned that. He thinks it's too dangerous. I'd like a scooter and I'd like to go to Jamaica and live there for a year. And what else is on my bucket list? I come across as someone

[00:44:41] who doesn't long for much, do I? I'm really content with life. That's amazing. What brings you joy? God, it's going to sound really, really naff, honestly. But, you know, my family bring me joy. I was at this wedding at the weekend and seeing my mum there with her sister and there were four generations of our family there in Spain, of all places,

[00:45:11] dancing to a sound system, reggae sound system, and just having a wonderful time. And it was so lovely, particularly as, my mum is like 84 now. I'm not entirely sure she'll basically ever fly anywhere again, you know what I mean? But she was there, like, you know, hanging with the young people, them, and just, you know, it was nice. So that was lovely. So it sounds very, very naff, but seeing the family together is joyful. We don't do it enough.

[00:45:40] What brings you peace? Reading. Reading a good book. It's funny, reading a book, reading a book, sometimes it kind of feels like food. It's so nourishing. Hmm. So then, our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wished you would have written. I would have loved to have written Beloved, although I'm not entirely sure how I could have rewritten it, but my goodness, that is just such a magnificent book.

[00:46:10] Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? The ending of The Testament, I kind of think it's too neat. It should be a bit more, a bit darker. I'm not sure how I'd make it darker. How I'd make it darker. Well, you kind of think of what is what's happening in America right now. It kind of feels too optimistic that people would get away and there would be regime change. I kind of think it would just get worse.

[00:46:40] Please don't wish that on us. No, I don't wish it on them. But for the end of the book, I kind of think I can't see. I would probably keep it dark and just, whether that gets away or not, we don't know as opposed to, yeah. An ambiguous ending. Okay. Ambiguous ending. And my messy question, name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why. Oh God. When I was young, in my sixth form, particularly most of my A-levels, they would go on

[00:47:09] about Jack Kerouac's On the Road as though it was the Bible. And I have read that book twice and I do not get it. I don't get it. I think it is so boring and not actually that bold. And I was like, oh my God, Jack Kerouac, man, you just understand him. You're so deep. It's like, it's not deep. It's boring. It's boring. I would never, ever read that book again. I've read it twice already. So I would never read it again.

[00:47:39] I don't need to go there. It's boring. I love this answer so much. They were reading that and I was like reading Sula and things like that. And they were telling me that On the Road is a classic. It's like, it's a classic because it's by some white dude and you're white dudes and that's that. So that makes it a classic. It's not a classic. It is so boring. And I bet it has an age book. I'm ranting now. I hate that book. I love a good rant. I love it. I love it so much. Because people, when they read it, see,

[00:48:08] I think what I like and my mind goes blank but I think what I hate is like, I could rant for ages. But I think it's because when you invest time in a book or when you're forced to invest time in a book when you're in school and it's not good and it's just like, and you keep making me read it again. Yeah. Like, I don't do that now. If a book is boring, life's too short. I can come back to it. Maybe I'll come back to it. There's other books that might engage me better. Yeah. But I'll get back to that one. Ugh.

[00:48:38] And so my final question for you today. When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind? I would like that people would think that my stories changed their lives. But that's probably too grand. So maybe. She wrote good work. There was good work and it was meaningful rather than meaningless like on the road.

[00:49:09] I like the first answer that your stories changed your lives but I also like the second answer that through shade it on the road again and I'm gonna let both stand. Thank you so much. Big thank you to Lisa Smith for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Lisa on the socials at Lisa4884Smith on Instagram and threads. And make sure you check out Jamaica Road out now from Knopf. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off

[00:49:39] your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you liked this episode and want more Black & Published head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published and that's B-L-K-And Published. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Lisa about how she developed Daphne's questionable love interest

[00:50:08] with a white boy based on her experience with a group of white girls. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Toni Ann Johnson, author of the short story collection But Where's Home? The novella that's in the book was the first screenplay I ever wrote. I was still at NYU when I wrote it. So it was maybe like a year and a half past the events. So it was still very fresh.

[00:50:37] And as I was writing it, I was reading it in a class that I was taking and my classmates and my professor were the ones who said, you need to just like cut off your father emotionally because he's using you. And I was like, he is? Like, I just didn't get it. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace.

[00:51:08] What's going on family? This is Derek Young and Ramonda Young owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode and if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books and we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam and always remember Black Books Matter.