Knowing When You're Ready with Olufunke Grace Bankole

[00:00:00] Something that I wish someone had said to me and that I wish I knew along the process is we all want the agent, we want the book deal, we want all of those things, but being published well matters. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[00:00:24] Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Olufunke Grace Bankole, author of the novel The Edge of Water. It's a book that began as a short story that Olufunke has been working to bring to fruition for the last 20 years. Over the years I was writing different things and sometimes my short story would end up in a journal and I would be contacted by a literary agent

[00:00:53] and they would say, you know, we found your work here and we love your work. Or one time I won a writing award and I was contacted by maybe six or seven literary agents, but I wasn't ready. When Olufunke was finally ready with The Edge of Water, she says everything fell into alignment. How she received the gift of patience from an industry insider that relieved the pressure of publishing.

[00:01:18] Plus, how her love of social justice and her career as a lawyer put her on the path to becoming a writer. And, how her story of a first-generation African woman with dreams bigger than herself is really a manifestation of her own name and path through life as a writer. That and more is next when Black & Published continues.

[00:01:50] Olufunke, when did you know that you were a writer? I think I came into formal writing a bit later maybe than people who, you know, from a young age might have known that they were a writer or folks who decided to go to an MFA program. When I look back now on childhood and grade school, I think I'd always lean towards writing.

[00:02:18] But, you know, like first generation, like a lot of first generation child of immigrants, the sort of internal and I think community pressure to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer. I think I internalize that, that, you know, people don't make a living out of writing. But for me, I was drawn to social justice and that's what led me to law school. So it wasn't necessarily that I didn't want to be a lawyer. I was absolutely drawn to it.

[00:02:47] But I think I had been drawn to writing as a child, but just didn't think it was a way. And being drawn to the law profession through social justice, what was it specifically? Was there a specific event, a specific uprising or something that, or catalyst that brought you to the law?

[00:03:11] Yeah, so when I was in undergrad, I was doing research about the inequalities and charging practices of prosecutors. So the basic idea is that all else being equal, black defendants would always be charged more seriously.

[00:03:33] So I started that research in an undergraduate that led me to New Orleans because New Orleans had some of the starkest charging differentials by race and by class. And my project at that time was to, you know, interview prosecutors, interview defense attorneys and judges to really try to understand why were there those inequalities. And I think that's what led me to law school.

[00:04:02] I really felt drawn to that work. What years were you doing that research and interviewing people in New Orleans? Because your book is very much a New Orleans story. Yeah. So what was interesting is that, you know, I had gone to law school and in 2004, when I graduated law school, I moved immediately within days, right? I had this project coming out of law school.

[00:04:27] I had won this fellowship and the fellowship was that I would go to New Orleans to work with families who had children who were incarcerated. And this particular program was to help advocate for families, to help teach families how to advocate for their own children.

[00:04:46] So, for instance, judges are more likely to send your child to rehabilitation rather than to lock up if family members show up and if they're able to, you know, make a case for why they think this would be a good program for their child. And so I think about three days after law school, I end up in New Orleans and I, you know, I was living there. I love the city. It was my first home after law school.

[00:05:14] It was the first place where I had my own apartment. You know, you're coming out of school. You feel like you're starting this new life. And on my days off from work, I would, you know, wander my neighborhood, go down to the French market. And I sometimes would see young West African women, market women, but who I knew were West African, some probably Nigerian. And I felt connected to them in some ways, right, because we're from the same place.

[00:05:42] But also I recognize that there was that separation economically. And the women in New Orleans, too, felt kind of distant, like they were far from home. And by the time Katrina hit, my work moved me away from New Orleans. And so at this point, I was in Florida. And I think I had just left New Orleans maybe a couple of months. I don't have the exact dates, but very shortly after I left, Hurricane Katrina struck.

[00:06:11] And so I was watching with the rest of the world in horror and, you know, that sense of, you know, I had just been living there. I've made friends. I was trying to call the people that I knew, get in touch with my friends, and the phone lines were dead. And so that was the connection for me to New Orleans and thinking, you know, when there's an evacuation order, where do people go? Where do people who don't have cars go?

[00:06:38] People who don't have resources, who don't have a way to get out. People who maybe haven't lived outside of the state or attack family elsewhere. Maybe like some of the young market women or the West African women that I met. What would happen to someone who had more resources like me, but I didn't have family, I didn't have friends. Where would you go during a storm like that? And so that's how I started writing the short story that years later, the novel would be based on.

[00:07:07] So when did you start that short story? Was it immediately like 2005? Yes. So around 2005, I wrote a draft of that story. And I can't remember if I sent it out that fall, that winter, or if I waited until, you know, early 2006. But that short story was accepted in 2006 by the editor who has now passed away, Lawrence Goldstein of Michigan Quarterly Review.

[00:07:35] And he loved the story, wrote me a note about how much he really connected with the story. He said that, you know, he'd gotten some Katrina stories, but that this one really stood out to him. And that was my first short story. So it just gave me that confidence, that boost, right? That I felt like I could do this. You know, of course, you know, it would take many more years.

[00:08:01] And we can talk about the realities of how long it really does take to get to the novel stage. Because I think when you're starting out and you're wide-eyed and you get those, you know, early first short story publications, you're excited. And you're like, okay, my agent's around the corner. The book deal's around the corner. But, you know, it often happens in different ways. Yes, because Katrina was August 29th, 2005.

[00:08:31] Your book came out February 4th, 2025. So you've been on this journey with that short story for almost 20 years. Yes. Girl, what happened? Yes. It's so interesting. That 20-year period, I think you're living life in other ways, right? Like I'm writing, I'm publishing short stories. I've been fortunate to win some short story awards, residencies.

[00:09:01] I've had grants. So things were happening, right, with the writing work in a way that, you know, if you were to read my bio, you know that I was doing something, you know, during those years. But why did it take so long from the story that became the novel? And I think that what happens, you know, for many writers is over the years you're writing the stories, but you're not quite sure how you turn the story into the novel.

[00:09:30] And I knew very early on that I wanted to tell the story of Amina, who is the main character of this novel. She is the same young woman that was in that early short story. I knew that I wanted to tell her story. I knew that I wanted to tell her story in Nigeria and how she came to New Orleans and what her life was like leading up to the storm, during the storm and after.

[00:09:52] But I think over the years I was writing different things and sometimes my short story would end up in a journal and I would be contacted by a literary agent and they would say, you know, we found your work here and we love your work. Or one time I won a writing award and I was contacted by maybe six or seven literary agents, but I wasn't ready. This was, you know, I think maybe 2011, 2013 in that period of time. I just wasn't ready.

[00:10:23] I didn't have what I thought could be a book. Right. And I remember even sending something that I thought was a novel at that time to maybe a couple of those agents and it wasn't ready. And sometimes I think when those periods of rejection hits you, I know for me, I'm a really sensitive soul. And so there were periods where I wasn't even writing where, you know, I took the rejection so hard that I doubted whether I could do this, whether this path was for me.

[00:10:53] And then I think during that time to just living life in other ways, there's nothing romantic about being broke and not being able to sustain yourself or have the things you need. So just working right to make money, you know, make sure you have a nice home space and taking care of yourself and trying to do those things. And so there were ups and downs with publishing. Sometimes you get published. Sometimes years would go between publications.

[00:11:21] And then I think the turning point for me was in 2019, I had a short story that was published in this journal called Agni. Right. And in the summer of 2020, I think because we were all at home, the woman who is now my literary agent found that short story that had been published in 2019. And she said, I really love your work. But what was so different this time is that I was ready.

[00:11:51] I had been at it for long enough that I didn't have a cohesive manuscript. But there was something in me where I felt like it was time. And so I wrote her back and I said, you know, I'm working on some things. I don't quite know what it is, but here are all the stories I've published. Here are some stories I'm working on.

[00:12:15] And what was also different about this agent is she really quite openly said, you know, I love your work. I love what you do. So take your time. Keep writing what you're writing. Share them with me whenever you like. I'm not in a hurry. I'm going to be here. And I think having that, you know, sort of institutional support, feeling like whenever I'm ready, I can send it to this person.

[00:12:44] She hadn't even officially signed me and she would read, you know, 50, 100 page drafts of my work. And so I think that just gave me the boost to feel that I could do this. And so by the time, you know, I had known her for a year, she did officially sign me. And then we started to get to the point where I knew I had a draft of something.

[00:13:09] And she had told me to, she said, you know, if you want to do a short story collection, if you want to do linked stories, that's fine. You can do whatever you want. I'm here. But I think I wanted to give Amina something more expansive. And it felt like the novel was a vehicle to tell her story and her family's story in the bigger way that I wanted to do. Oh, so many good things.

[00:13:35] You emphasize knowing when you're ready or not being ready. In those years, after that first short story with Amina got you some traction and agents were contacting you when they read your work and other short stories and other journals, did you know that you weren't ready and just trying to make yourself ready? Or did you think that you were ready? And that is why the rejection hit so hard.

[00:14:02] I think it's a little bit of both because I think it was that sense of urgency that you sometimes create that the doors open and it's got to happen for me now, right? Because, you know, you sort of know the way it's supposed to happen is that, you know, when you're ready, you query agents. So this idea that agents are coming to you, there's a pressure, I think, to seize on the opportunity.

[00:14:28] I believed in my work, but I think when I look back, that manuscript or whatever I shared with the agents back then just was not my best work. And I think it hit me hard because you just want it to work out. The writing world sort of makes you feel that you have to do it now. You've got to do it quickly. And if it's not happening for you the way that it's happening for other people, right? And you see it, right?

[00:14:54] I mean, if you think like in the 20 year span, there were people I went to workshops with and I saw their books coming out. And you have to sort of sit within yourself and trust in your own timing. I mean, there are parts of the story that I know I could not have told 15 years ago or 10 years ago that it just needed more time. Because my life changed and I became a different person in the process. It's easy to say that in retrospect.

[00:15:24] And I say that from my own personal experience. How did you get to a place of calm that brought you back to the page after those bouts of rejection when you admitted that you just stopped writing because you were rejected? That you were like, you know what? I'm going to keep telling this story and I'm okay that it hasn't happened yet. I think there's always been something in me.

[00:15:53] And I don't know if it's the spiritual. I don't know if it is being Yoruba, being Nigerian, if it's a combination, if it's my own internal fire, God-given, or maybe a combination of all of those things. But I think there's always been something in me that is just irrepressible, that does not give up. And that believes that I will get there however long it takes.

[00:16:20] And I think that because other parts of my life have played out that way. You know, depending on what you believe, you have this blueprint. You see how your life plays out in patterns. And I think I really believe that however long it takes, it's not going to happen for me the way that it happens for other people. I, you know, that is part of my path, but it is going to happen.

[00:16:47] And so I think that I just kept going back to the page because I felt like I was meant to keep writing. And also too, I would always have just enough success or good things happening, enough grace, enough people on my own path, writers I admired who encouraged me, who said kind things about my work.

[00:17:11] If I went to a workshop that it just kept going, it kept me going so that when it finally started to happen, it moved quickly. You know what I mean? You're going for years, you're going for years. And then when it does happen and when it is the right time, it aligns so quickly and you're not clawing, you're not struggling in the same way.

[00:17:35] And that's not to say that publication and all of that is not challenging or has not, doesn't have its own ups and downs, but there's an alignment that I think also signal that, okay, this is the right time. The agent came, there was no pressure of she's going to go away if I don't deliver in the next few weeks. You know, I felt pretty calm about that. And then I just felt supported.

[00:18:02] So then once you got into the process where, okay, this is the manuscript, what was that process like sending it out and submitting it to the industry? At that time, my family and I were living in Egypt for a couple of years when my agent and I went on submission. So there was that big, you know, I think it was like 10 hour time difference. And so coordinating when she officially sent out, when I would start hearing from her about anything she was hearing and my agent was excited.

[00:18:31] And we'd worked together for three solid years of going back and forth and her giving me time to get things to her. So I felt like we were ready. And in retrospect, we were not on submission that long, but looking back every minute of submission, about like a lifetime, the minute she said, okay, I've sent it out.

[00:18:54] You know, you check your email 30 minutes later to see, because you do hear the stories of people who are like, I went on submission and an hour later we sold foreign rights. Right. And so we were on submission and the imprints and the editors who said no, always gave really wonderful feedback and wonderful rejection.

[00:19:20] And the reasons they said no would be like, oh, it's so literary, which for me, I took as a compliment because I really care about sentences and the way that the beauty of the words propel the story. Then we had a couple of editors who wanted to make changes, but the changes didn't feel aligned. And I really appreciate my agent, you know, saying to me, what do you think about what this editor is saying?

[00:19:49] Is that something that feels aligned? And I would tell her how I felt. And we were all so matched up where she said, you know what, you're right. And I think we want someone who is, who gets it and who is immediately excited. And I think also for me, having not had this happen for, you know, at that point, maybe 17 years, I knew what I was writing at this point. I knew what I wanted to say.

[00:20:15] So I didn't feel as pressured to say, oh, you know, an editor is interested. Let me see what I can do to make it sellable for them. And when we got to Tin House, my now editor, Elizabeth DeMeo, immediately loved it. She was excited about the characters. She had a vision for how to make it even better.

[00:20:38] And I think that excitement, something I'd like to say, because I know that a lot of your listeners are writers who are at different stages. And something that I wish someone had said to me and that I wish I knew along the process is we all want the agent. We want the book deal. We want all of those things. But being published well matters.

[00:21:07] Being published well will affect your well-being, your emotional, mental, spiritual well-being, even after they have said yes to your book. And so that means being with a publisher who values your work and you, who cares about what you've written, who cares what you think about the book cover, who cares what you think about the changes they want to make.

[00:21:35] And so being with, you know, an indie publisher like Tin House for me has been the dream that I didn't know I had because the care from my editor through the different stages of editorial and, you know, the publication and more business marketing publicity part of it. It's made such a difference. Having an editor who's responsive, right?

[00:22:03] I don't think I've ever gone 48 hours not hearing from my editor. Always responsive. And not only that, and, you know, my editor, very meticulous, very, you know, excellent at what she does, but also always kind. Always with kindness. Always with warmth. Even when we were making big changes or changes where maybe I felt resistant. Always kindness.

[00:22:30] So that it gave me time to sit with it and to really decide how do I feel about this? Is this right for the book? And I think that, you know, again, being sensitive, it really mattered for me in the process. And so now, you know, that's the advice that I would give it is before you get the agent, are they aligned? Do you like the way they talk to you? Do you like the way you feel when you get off the phone or when you get off communicating with them?

[00:22:57] And so I think this process has really taught me not just to have a thing, but how you have it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that hits. It hits. So like the book is out. And I would say by your own admission, you have been published well. How do you feel?

[00:23:26] I am sitting constantly in a place of gratitude. And I do not mean that in a cliche way. I mean that that feeling of not having it is not that far away. Do you know what I mean? Like I remember being on the other side of it. I remember. And so the things that are happening now were the things I dreamed 10, 15 years ago, five years ago.

[00:23:56] I remember listening to Black Unpublished when Chris Stuck was on your show. Yes, I'm getting chills as I say that because I was in the same kitchen area listening to that show, right? And hoping. And I think I had my agent, but I didn't really have a manuscript that was ready. And I was listening to him when his debut came out, right?

[00:24:21] And so to be living what you were listening to years ago, to be navigating, you know, a publicist telling you this is your option. Do you want to do this? Do you want to? Like, I have a choice. You know, things like that. So just sitting in a place of gratitude. Some of the doors, too, that have opened up for this book have been surprising, right?

[00:24:49] And something else that, you know, I want to share for your listeners that are going to get to the point where their book is coming out, right? And there are different levels of rejection at that stage. There are going to be most anticipated lists. Some of those lists, you will not make them. But then you will make some lists that you didn't even know existed. Great.

[00:25:12] And there will be other surprises along the way of things that happened for your book that you can't compare to things that happened for other people's books. So, yeah, I just keep coming back to this place of feeling grateful. And I'm grateful for everything because I know what it was like not to have it. And what I'm witnessing, too, is that everything's about relationships.

[00:25:38] And I don't mean that in a transactional way, but everything is about how you're connecting to other human beings, how you are considering them. And in this process, I know that there have been doors that opened up for me because I had a relationship a long time ago. And it could have just been someone I met, someone I talked to who remembered me.

[00:26:03] And sometimes your name is just brought up in places, right? Your name will just be brought up in places where you're not even aware that maybe a decision is being made. And then something will come through with my publicist. And I'll just think, oh, my goodness, like how did that happen for me?

[00:26:22] And so just to be intentional about how you move through this process and how you are treating others with kindness, with warmth, because we're all colleagues. We're either colleagues now or we're going to be colleagues. And I always try to keep that in mind. But, yeah, just gratitude. Wow. Listening to you say that made me think of the Bible verse.

[00:26:50] Your gifts will make room for you and they will bring you in the presence of great men or women or people. So then let's get to The Edge of Water. Can you read something from the novel? And then we can jump into this multilayered story. The Edge of Water by Olufonke Grace Bangule is a novel that traverses from Ibadan, Nigeria to New Orleans to the U.S. West Coast. It follows the path of Amina.

[00:27:16] She's an ambitious and headstrong young woman determined to find her own way. But it's a course that puts her in the eye of the storm that is Hurricane Katrina and forces her and her loved ones to reckon with family history and lasting legacy amidst a tense backdrop of divining fortune tellers and belief in personal destiny. Here's Olufonke.

[00:27:37] So I will read when Amina, the main character, has just landed in the city of New Orleans. Amina, shells in the shape of light. The way I met the city is how I return to it now in my remembering.

[00:28:00] That warm, heavy afternoon, voices close, carried away, then fading, has lingered in all that would come after. The backseat window of Fatima and Rashid's car framed each street like a scene. Cold from the inside air, I held my sweater between my legs. Even in America, things could be this way.

[00:28:26] Bed sheets hung over broken windows and metal doors as thick as jail cell bars. Then just a block later, houses the size of a palace, forest green lawns and fountain oaths to Greek goddesses. Just like home, the rich live their wealth wherever they pleased, the plight of the rest be damned. This is America? I asked Fatima between the console.

[00:28:53] Ah, what? Rashid yelled over his shoulder. You mean to tell me you don't see the dolas growing on those branches? He pointed toward the windshield at the large hovering trees. On one was hung, deliberately it seemed, a gigantic necklace of green, purple, and gold. I swore I'd been here before. Rashid squeezed Fatima's thigh. Maybe we should take our block to the airport, Abi.

[00:29:21] He laughed gratingly to himself. Their apartment, 2A, was in the top left corner of a grass green duplex with yellow windows. The house looked happy like a fable from a childhood book. It was larger than anything I'd dreamed. Does someone else live with you? Just you now. Rashid turned to Fatima and they laughed.

[00:29:47] I looked up to the balcony and saw myself there in the early mornings, neck pushed out, willing the sun to rest on my face. Thank you. So, you've been very adamant that this is Amina's story. But I would say second to Amina is her mother, Esther. Yes. And in a way, the book begins and ends with Esther.

[00:30:15] In telling the story of how Amina came to New Orleans, you have to tell her story of being in Nigeria. And it is evident from the opening lines with the Oracle that she's from a line of hard women who survived tragedy. Why was that the lineage that you wanted to give to your main character?

[00:30:40] Yeah, I think, you know, there's a line in the book where I think Amina and Esther had said, we are a line of dreaming women. And these women are, they have survived tragedy.

[00:30:57] And they are also dreamers and women who are aware of themselves within a culture that tells them what is possible, what is impossible.

[00:31:16] A culture that's limiting, coming up against, I think, their own individual desires to be free, to be able to make decisions for their own lives. And so I wanted to weave this thread through, you know, starting with Esther, writing letters to Amina, reflecting on her own life, decisions she made, knowing that there could be danger for her child in America.

[00:31:44] But that desire also for her child to have a kind of freedom that she didn't have, right? And even though there is hardness that the women have overcome, there's also this tenderness in the way that mothers love their daughters in this book. And with fierceness and gentleness and sometimes fear and longing.

[00:32:10] And I wanted to try to get at those layers of the complexity between the relationships with mothers and daughters and the way we're shaped by our mother's history, right? There's a point in the book where Esther says, for better or worse, the decisions you make now, even in your girlhood, will affect the woman you become. And how, through time, the mothers affect their daughters' lives.

[00:32:37] And that idea of agency versus destiny and how much control do we have over our own lives. And talking about agency versus destiny, you have these interludes interspersed throughout the story of the Ianifa and the diviner that they go see.

[00:32:58] And you even say it in the author's note in the very beginning that you wanted to move between worlds, between Nigeria and the U.S., IFA and Christianity, interlonging and cultural constraint.

[00:33:12] How has your Yoruba heritage and the system of spiritual practices of Yoruba influenced this story that is very much about trying to see something, but always being beholden to the path that your God or your spirits or your guiding lights have laid out for you?

[00:33:37] Yes. So sort of central part of Yoruba culture is this idea of predetermination and individual control or power in the choices that you make for yourself. I think it's a constant battle. For instance, when you are named as a child in Yoruba, you are sort of the embodiment of your name.

[00:34:00] You will become that name. And so parents are very careful and very thoughtful in the name that they give their child because you will live that out, right, is the belief. And so I think there's constantly that tension within the culture and within, you know, even if you have Nigerians who identify as Christians, so much of that Christianity is influenced by traditional religion.

[00:34:25] So I wanted to get at those layers of complexity that it's not, there's no clean break anywhere. And that in between this with Christianity, traditional religion, the world above the world here being Nigerian, American, African, American, and the movement between the different worlds.

[00:34:51] I really wanted a novel that I think structurally was complex enough to honor the complexity of the cultures, of the women, of the layers of identity, of, you know, so many people are in between and in between worlds and in between belief systems. So first, I have to ask you with that said, what does your name mean?

[00:35:15] Olufunke. So Olufunke means literally translated, it means God gave me this child to care for. More loosely translated, it's God takes care of this child, right? Literally, God does not play about you. See, I kind of think that's true. Like, literally, your name means God don't play about me. Tread light.

[00:35:42] I love that about me during names, right? Because you're like, this is actually who I am. So I know I'll be okay. Yeah. And I love that. I love that. It's sort of, it kind of sets you on your path. Going back to the novel and the tension between being both and, and then also sometimes neither.

[00:36:10] Because I think there's space for that too, in Amina's journey, especially once she gets to New Orleans, even though she always wanted to come and have this life of her own. She is still kind of unmoored and untethered from all that she's known leaving Nigeria, especially as a young adult, but a grown person. Yeah.

[00:36:35] And putting her in the markets where you saw the market women and having her form these relationships, you see the fragility of her life when the storm comes. You talk about, in the historical note at the end of the book, how you came to put Amina in the Superdome as the storm was coming. And can you talk about that story for a bit? Yes.

[00:36:59] So I remember from watching news reports, even at that time, and also in going back and researching that, I think in the few days leading up to the storm, there was a sense with many people, of course, in that region who have been through similar storms. And so, you know, that they were prepared or that they weren't as scared.

[00:37:26] And then there was a moment, I think very close, maybe in the hours of the day before, where there was sort of this tension in the air of people thinking this one feels different. This one, you know, there's some impending sense of devastation or that this feels like something different is going to happen here.

[00:37:48] And, you know, there are decisions that I made absolutely to honor what really happened in Katrina and wanting to be respectful of that. But, you know, I said a few times before that there is no amount of horror that I describe in the book that actually matches up to the real life horrors that people experienced.

[00:38:12] And the Superdome was one of those places where some of the very worst things happened. And it sort of became a symbol for the lack of preparation and care for the humanity of so many people. And having Amina in the Superdome was not to sensationalize it.

[00:38:38] That many people, many more people than should have been ended up in the Superdome in those hours leading up to the storm. And the most devastating part was in the aftermath. And I really wanted to focus on that aftermath. That it wasn't the storm itself, but the way that the lack of preparation, lack of resources met up with the aftermath.

[00:39:01] So that after the storm had passed, now people are without power, without adequate food or without adequate resources. There were people who were ill. There were people who had been away from home for several days and, you know, who didn't have the things they needed for their babies and medicines. And the fact that it took so long to get to people who were in need and that there was overcrowdedness.

[00:39:29] The plumbing had stopped working. And I wanted to be able to tell that story through Amina's experience. Joseph, another character in Amina's circle who ended up in the Superdome, had a different experience than Amina, but could witness some of the things that happened with her.

[00:39:53] And, you know, having lived in New Orleans, I wanted to write the story respectfully without sensationalizing. And I wanted to be able to do that as sensitively as I could. Like, it's so heartbreaking. But then, to your point about the Superdome and the aftermath of the storm, I don't remember what time it hit either.

[00:40:19] But I do remember from being in television and news and doing stories and hearing all the sound bites, people talking about hearing the water rise in the night. Yes. Yes. And because it wasn't necessarily the storm, it was the levees breaking, the levees failure, the city pumps not being able to drain the water. And so it had nowhere to go. Right. And so it just, it rose and rose and rose and rose and rose and rose. And all the failures there.

[00:40:46] And then the power's out in the dome and the toilets are backed up. And Amina experiences that. And at the time, she also has a child. Yeah. And it's heartbreaking on several different levels. And yet her daughter becomes a beacon of hope, not only for her legacy, but also for her family. Why put that on a child?

[00:41:16] I think for Amina's daughter, even with that weight of the history, right? She still, I think what's so different about this particular character is she makes her own way without having to carry the pressure of, this is what I have to become. Right. Because my mother sacrificed so much for me to be able to be here and have this life.

[00:41:42] I think we also get a lot of searching and a lot of her sort of living her life with more ease at a slower pace. You know, going to coffee shops or making things that would have been. And I remember there was this point where Ianifa says things that would have been for Amina, the apex of success, were for her daughter, just the beginning, just the tip.

[00:42:10] You know, when we first meet her daughter at an older age, right, as a teenager and getting older, she sort of feels that internal pressure and confusion about who is she in relationship to the family she didn't know or all of those things. But I think, too, as the novel progresses, I think she has a sense that doing it in her own way is the victory, right?

[00:42:37] You know, she doesn't have to have the pressure of, you know, doctor, lawyer, engineer, but there are other ways to be yourself. And I wanted to give that character a little bit more ease, a little bit more of a flow in life, even having the chance to go back and look for her family.

[00:43:00] And even in that, so like, it just occurred to me now in giving her the ease of life of a true American, right? Right. She also has some of that, perhaps longing that many, I'm assuming, here Black Americans may have about where they come from and roots and genealogy and ancestry.

[00:43:26] And so even though she can claim that she is Nigerian and that is home and that is where she derives from, she still has an unknowing about her because so much of that history is just missing from her. And so she has to go find it. Like many Black Americans who are interested in knowing their history really have to go find it.

[00:43:46] And it's not easy for her either. And do you find parallels in that and like the generational experiences of immigrants and migrants in the diaspora? Like no matter where you call home, whether it's the United States or Africa, when you start to move around, you always become untethered in a way that you begin searching for something that's missing? Yes, that is such a powerful question.

[00:44:43] And so for this character, it's the idea of not being enough of one thing, right? She's not fully American. Her parents are Nigerian, but she is also not fully Nigerian enough, right? And the way we get judged culturally by how enough of something, what is it? Is it the way you speak?

[00:45:07] Is it the way you cook? How well you can cook the foods? How well you know the trivia, what the latest dances are, who the president is, what the cult, you know, all of those things. How do we determine who's a true Nigerian or who is a true African or even people having regional differences? You're from the South, you're from the East Coast, the West Coast and the way we try to locate ourselves within these identities.

[00:45:35] And I think that this question of who gets to determine, who gets to decide for us how enough of something we are is something that I wanted to examine. Because I think for a lot of first generation folks, there are so many of us who are kind of in between and who are making our own sense of what it means to be something. All right. So then I know we've talked broadly about the book, but there's so much more happening.

[00:46:05] Like we haven't even gotten to the trash ass man or the sister or the messy neighbors, what they did to the car. So much is happening that it was a literary read, but it was also very fun in parts. And really getting to know Amina's community and her life and how rich it was before and after her move. Right. So you don't have time to get into all of it now.

[00:46:35] But what do you want readers to take from this rich book that you've written? When I'm asked to describe who I think this book is for, I think, you know, we've had some of the conversation about first generation folks who feel that they are in between worlds. In between cultures.

[00:46:54] And I think, too, it is about the dreamer in all of us who really is striving to create for themselves more than what they're being told they can have. More than you're being told you can have by your community. More than what your fears tell you you can have. More than what your culture says is possible for you.

[00:47:22] Or what your religion even says is possible for you. So I think this idea of being irrepressible and reaching for a life that feels like it's calling for you within you. And I think that readers can find that here through the story of Amina and Esther and Joseph, Leila, Yanifa. I really do.

[00:47:51] I think that it's a book that while it's devastating in many places, I think it is also funny. And it's really hopeful. I think in the end it is about hope and reaching for the love that remains even after tragedy. Fashay. So now I want to switch to the speed around in the game before I let you go. And since you've been listening, I know you know what to expect. What is your favorite book?

[00:48:18] Okay, I have to say So Long, A Letter by Mariam Abba. And that is a Senegalese writer who inspired the letter part of this novel. Who is your favorite author? Yvonne Vera, another African woman writer, Zimbabwean. And I just love what she does with language. I think no one stretches the parameters of language like she does. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:48] So to that end, who was your favorite poet? Because I know you have one. I have loved, love, love, love Rumi. I think that sort of taps into my spiritual longing, the way that Rumi really talks about longing. I don't think anyone describes it in quite the same way. And what I'm trying to do now is to connect to African poets because I don't hear a lot about African poets.

[00:49:15] And so I'm actually reading right now phases by Tremaine Suby. If money were no object, where would you live? Where would you go? And just what would you do? I would live probably in the country somewhere with a lot of land, a lot of green. I love green. I love trees. I like coming out in the morning and having freshness. I have little ones.

[00:49:40] I just love for them to have all the space in the world to run around and have coffee in hand and look up to the sun and maybe able to see some water in the distance. So that's, yeah, that's the dream for sure. Name three things on your bucket list. To have the land, right? To have a big, you know, acreage of land. To travel to places that are a bit more remote.

[00:50:09] There are parts of China that I would love to travel through and hike. I was there once for a couple of days. And just, yeah, places where you travel for hours and hours so you don't see any other human beings. I'd love to be able to do that in a stretch of time. My kids are little now, so that's probably not going to happen for a while. And then I think for me, also thinking, I think in terms of motherhood, just raising good human beings.

[00:50:37] I want to live long enough to see both of my children become decent human beings who are happy with who they are. Yeah. That's a prayer in my heart for sure. What brings you joy? Oh my goodness. Oh, so many things bring me joy. I have a toddler and, you know, toddlers can be feisty and try you.

[00:51:03] And then just sometimes the snuggle, the hug or the cheek to cheek just brings me so much joy. I was traveling for a few days and I hadn't, you know, hugged my toddler in a few days. So it just, you know, coming back home and getting to do that. So yeah. Yeah. That was a moment. Especially because, you know, it sort of contrasts with the tantrums. I'm like, my toddler.

[00:51:32] Oh, she can be the sweetest thing on earth. But baby, when she goes up, she goes up. It's like you knocking and I'm ready to buck, but you're three. So what brings you peace? The simple things. I love coffee. So sometimes when I'm up in the morning, no one else is awake yet and I just have coffee and I don't have to do anything. There's no demand yet on my time.

[00:52:02] I don't have to be anywhere. And just being able to sit for a few minutes by myself with good coffee, that is, it feels like a treat. It feels like a blessing. And yeah, it's a moment where I feel connected to myself. Yeah. So our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book that you wish you would have written.

[00:52:33] Oh, you know what book? I think the title matches so well. Disgrace by J.M. Kowetsy. That book, that title, Disgrace, captures the book so well that even by the first paragraph, you know why it's named Disgrace. I think by the first sentence, I would say by the first sentence, you know why this book is called Disgrace and you know you're going to be in for a wild ride.

[00:53:02] So yeah, that brilliance. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? It's a book that I love. Butterfly Burning, Yvonne Vera. I love this book, but it does have maybe the inevitable tragic ending.

[00:53:24] And I think I am wanting more hope and beauty for Black women, wishing that it didn't end like that for that character because the book is so beautiful and hopeful. Yeah. Yeah. And now my messy question, name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why? You can do dead people. I always tell folks, you can do dead people.

[00:53:54] I'll give a general answer. There are some books that, you know, maybe it's really hyped up and I think publishing is subjective, but you read it and it definitely gives you hope and confidence that you can make it too. That's such an honest and shady answer. I don't even care that you didn't give a specific book because it's like, this got published and I'm just published.

[00:54:24] Child. There's hope for you as well. Someone could read my book and be like, okay, it's my turn. Um, they won't. It's so funny. I have not, um, I should have brushed up on this so I could come ready, but I like that I, that I wasn't, then it felt more organic, right? Yes. All right. So final question.

[00:54:52] When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about your legacy of words and work that you left behind? Oh, that's really lovely. I think that, I think I would like for someone to hopefully say that I cared about the language

[00:55:16] and the beauty of language as the vehicle for meaningful storytelling. Big thank you to Olufunke Grace Bancolet for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Olufunke on the socials at olufonke.grace.bancolet on Instagram.

[00:55:35] And Olufunke is spelled O-L-U-F-U-N-K-E, Grace, and then Bancolet is spelled B-A-N-K-O-L-E. And make sure you check out her debut novel, The Edge of Water. It's out now from Tin House. You can get a copy of the book from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. And that's B-L-K-P-U-B.

[00:56:05] That's our show for the week. If you liked this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published, and that's B-L-K-and Published. There, I've posted two bonus clips for my interview with Olufunke. One about how she feels now that her dream has come true. And why, as a West African woman, New Orleans feels the most like home. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:56:34] I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Jill Tu, author of the dystopian YA novel, The Dividing Sky. Capitalism has wired us in a lot of ways to think that our lives are valuable because of the value that we can create for somebody else, right? How much money you can make for somebody, or even for yourself, but it comes down to literal dollar figures. And the message for the book and what Liv and Adrian eventually come to discover is actually no, life is inherently valuable. That's next week on Black & Published.

[00:57:04] I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on.

[00:57:32] We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.