It's All Connected with Tomi Adeyemi

[00:00:00] I was like, you know what?

[00:00:01] I'm going to write something so good and so black that you're going to have to see it.

[00:00:05] Otherwise, you're going to miss out on what everyone's talking about.

[00:00:08] What's good?

[00:00:09] I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published, bringing you the journeys

[00:00:14] of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:20] Today's guest is Tomi Adeyemi, the New York Times' number one best-selling author

[00:00:25] of The Children of Blood and Bone series.

[00:00:28] And she's here with the third installment of the legacy of Orissa Trilogy,

[00:00:33] The Children of Anguish and Anarchy.

[00:00:36] It's the finale in a series that began when Tomi was captivated by Yoruba's deities on a trip to Brazil.

[00:00:43] I was so abuzz when I saw this photo and found out what the Orissa were.

[00:00:49] And I remember calling my mom like, oh my god have you ever heard of this thing like Orissa?

[00:00:54] And she's like, Orissa!

[00:00:58] I'm like, so you know this enough to give me shade about it but you've never talked to me about it?

[00:01:02] As a Nigerian-American who came of age in a mostly white community,

[00:01:07] Tomi says her writing grew out of a reckoning with her own internalized self-hatred.

[00:01:12] How writing herself seen is an act of rebellion and revenge to Hunger Games haters.

[00:01:18] Plus, how she's helped shift the publishing landscape around science fiction and fantasy

[00:01:23] in the six years since her debut.

[00:01:25] And how the overwhelming sense of her own mortality has fueled her creativity.

[00:01:32] That and more is next when Black & Published continues.

[00:01:50] When did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:53] Ooh, so it happened unconsciously.

[00:01:57] And the thing, the conscious thing I remember about writing is that

[00:02:01] it was the first thing I did that no one told me to do.

[00:02:05] So it wasn't like my parents told me to go right.

[00:02:08] It wasn't like my teacher gave me an assignment.

[00:02:11] It was, I mean I was a really avid reader but at that time I was obsessed with three things.

[00:02:17] One, the parent-traff with Lindsay Lohan.

[00:02:19] I really wanted a twin.

[00:02:22] Two, the Saddle Horse Club.

[00:02:25] I think it's like a chapter book series or a middle grade series but it's like three books on a horse farm

[00:02:29] but I was like really wanted a horse.

[00:02:32] And then there's this Bollywood movie that I watched every day for three years

[00:02:38] and my childhood called Kabikushi Kabigam.

[00:02:41] And they have the most beautiful outfits and saris in it.

[00:02:45] And I was like, I really want a sorry.

[00:02:47] So like I asked my parents, I was like can I have a twin and can I have a horse and a sorry.

[00:02:51] And they were like, twin no.

[00:02:54] Horse no.

[00:02:56] Sorry we could see about that.

[00:02:58] And I was like not satisfied.

[00:03:01] I was like, no, no, no.

[00:03:03] Like in my own childhood mind I was like but I want it.

[00:03:07] And so my first story was called The Black Champion.

[00:03:12] I sat down at, it was like a Windows desktop.

[00:03:16] So it's like when we still have these big servers and floppy disks.

[00:03:19] And I just started typing.

[00:03:21] It was like 30, 35 pages.

[00:03:24] There was a clip art of a black stallion on the front.

[00:03:27] The twins names were Marilyn and Carolyn.

[00:03:31] They were 10 year old geniuses.

[00:03:33] They met at Hubbard University because I couldn't say my B's.

[00:03:37] And then they're like, oh my God, we have to get our parents back together.

[00:03:40] It takes place on a horse farm and then there's this wild stallion that no one can tame.

[00:03:45] But Marilyn feels a special connection with it.

[00:03:48] And at some point, Marilyn has to ride the stallion into the storm to save it from himself.

[00:03:53] But the funniest thing about the story is halfway through the twins names transition into just being Tomi and Tomi.

[00:04:01] So it's just Tomi rode the black stallion into the storm and her Tomi cried out to her,

[00:04:07] Tomi no.

[00:04:08] And she's like, Tomi I know what I'm doing.

[00:04:10] It was very much like Tomi fulfillment.

[00:04:14] And so I didn't know I was a writer but I'm like yeah you were a writer.

[00:04:18] It is a specific behavior.

[00:04:20] Yes.

[00:04:20] So beyond that story of that being like your villain origin story so to speak.

[00:04:27] When did you decide perhaps that writing was the thing that you were going to do and just not something that you could do?

[00:04:36] So that actually happened in my early 20s.

[00:04:40] Let's say like that first story happens between the ages of six and eight.

[00:04:45] For the next 10 years I kept writing, I just kept writing stories and it was the same thing.

[00:04:50] But when I was 18, I was trying to figure out what I was going to write my college essay on and I decided something that was unique about me was that I wrote stories.

[00:04:59] I didn't know anyone else in my friend group or my school who did that.

[00:05:02] So I was like okay what let me try and like look through all these 10 years of stories and see if there's something interesting here, something I can talk about.

[00:05:13] And what I noticed was that in my very first story the black champion told me he's in there twice.

[00:05:20] In the stories I wrote over the next 10 years, I was still writing what I wished for but like my characters were white or they were biracial.

[00:05:30] They had red hair.

[00:05:31] It was like that it became as much I because of the way I write words like this is what I wanted.

[00:05:38] I was able to be like oh okay at 12 you wanted to be white with red hair and you wanted to shoot lightning.

[00:05:45] There would always be like three things but it was like all the characters were whiter biracial.

[00:05:50] And I so at 18 I was like oh crap you don't love yourself or something.

[00:05:55] You've erased yourself out of your own imagination for 10 years and made a great college essay.

[00:06:00] But I was just like to fix this.

[00:06:05] I need to consciously fix this so that's when I started the first story it was called The Keepers.

[00:06:11] Writing that book was a four and a half year journey.

[00:06:14] It's funny her first name was Emery and I actually recycled her name for the new book I'm writing like a non-children of blood and bone book.

[00:06:22] But she looked like me. She had like skin like our skin like dark brown skin.

[00:06:29] Beautiful big fluffy, fluffy afro and so I had to learn like how to describe her skin how to describe her hair.

[00:06:38] I was like oh her hair was like a cloud.

[00:06:40] So that was like healing and self love and I was mostly doing it for me but I became a radicalized my freshman year about oh I'm not just writing for me anymore.

[00:06:51] When there was all that backlash against the black characters in the adaptation of the Hunger Games.

[00:06:57] So it's like if you're not familiar with this portion of the viewers were very vocal online about being upset about Amanda Sternberg being cast as Rue and Lenny Kravitz being cast as Sina.

[00:07:10] And there were so many horrible tweets like oh my god why they make Rue black?

[00:07:15] Why they make all the good characters black?

[00:07:17] It wasn't like sad when she died because she was a black B word.

[00:07:21] Like these were it was bad. I have screenshots and the first time I saw the Hunger Games I remember having like tears when spoiler alert Rue is stabbed or speared in the gut and she's dying and Katniss is singing to her.

[00:07:39] Deep in the net.

[00:07:41] Like yes I remember like tears then over the next week or so I saw the backlash and I saw the movie again unrelated I think I was on a date but this time when I saw the scene where Rue was speared I was ugly sobbing.

[00:07:59] Because I was now aware of the hatred for her and watching the scene again like such a beautiful heartbreaking scene and now knowing that there were real people in the real world being like oh like this sucks or like it's not sad that she died because she's just a black bitch.

[00:08:18] Like that gutted me and I think this is about I think Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman.

[00:08:26] February.

[00:08:27] February of 2012.

[00:08:28] Yes okay so like I'm 18 at this point I'd had encounters with racism but it was just like a substitute teacher who thought I was the class delinquent as opposed to like the kid with the highest grade in the class or someone being like oh you didn't deserve to get into Harvard and I was like well bitch.

[00:08:45] Anyway.

[00:08:46] Okay so we got to refreshment year.

[00:08:50] I have Trayvon happening one month and I'm like oh my god we can still die because we're black.

[00:08:58] It's not just a mean substitute teacher and then a month later I have a bunch of people being angry at a manless Sternberg and the other thing is I was like I'm darker than a manless Sternberg first of all you're a you're yelling at an 11 year old black girl.

[00:09:14] And I was like if you hate her this much how much do you hate me.

[00:09:18] I was heartbroken I was so angry but like under the anger was heartbreak and I remember being like I wrote a blog post about it I was like you know what I'm gonna write something so good and so black that you're gonna have to see it.

[00:09:33] So that was my if we burn you burn too like that.

[00:09:36] And I was still working on the keepers at that point but that's when I knew I was like you're not just writing to learn to love yourself you're not just writing because it's a passion and you hope to publish one day.

[00:09:48] Like you're trying to catniss ever in this thing you're trying to turn the wheel because it was a big thing to have a female protagonist that was a big turn of the wheel in a YA young adult franchise before was the Hobbit Harry Potter.

[00:10:02] Then we had Twilight so Twilight turned the wheel to and now we have an action adventure so I was like no you want to turn the wheel but this time you want that catniss to like look like you and you want everyone to I was like you're going to miss the whole movie because it's pretty epic.

[00:10:19] I was like you're gonna miss all this magic.

[00:10:21] Your butt down.

[00:10:21] So that was sort of my your push your drive.

[00:10:26] Yes.

[00:10:27] So but there's so many layers to this because you talk about from the very first story that you wrote with the horses and the sorry and the things to the stories you wrote after that and recognizing that you had this internalized hatred to everything that happened in 2012 and then all the years after even until

[00:10:47] today with how black people are savagely killed and recorded in their final moments which anyway to making sure that you were going to write something that everybody was talking about and yet in the first book, Zellies hair is straight.

[00:11:06] Yes.

[00:11:07] And while she's dark skin and I know there's a whole evolution with the hair and it has to do with the magic.

[00:11:12] But it's like, it's almost all of that that you had experience and that you were going through.

[00:11:18] You put that not only on the page but then in the character and then made them reckon with it over the course of the three books was all of that really intentional.

[00:11:27] Yes.

[00:11:27] Yes.

[00:11:29] Like I know we don't have video footage, but to go from straight hair with the motif of flame to the hair was the biggest, the biggest contention point when making the second cover to like really daily with these micro braids and this almost cowry shell that it is a journey and if you even the way her the journey of her scars through it

[00:11:56] like the scars, the stories, the scars she gets along the way.

[00:11:59] I don't want to say anything about the third book, but it's everything was so intentional because when I was writing this black Panther didn't exist yet like the movie.

[00:12:09] So we had never had anything even close to this.

[00:12:13] We hadn't had Black Panther, Bridgerton.

[00:12:16] I don't know if we had in secure maybe we had scandal.

[00:12:19] So it's like the landscape.

[00:12:22] I know we're still fighting when I know pushing but when this cover came out, if you click now when you click this you're going to see like 30 fantasies with like black and African girls on the cover.

[00:12:36] Wow.

[00:12:37] Both family tree and it's incredible.

[00:12:40] Writing with that kind of intentionality.

[00:12:42] What kind of pressure did you feel because I want to say I read an interview with you around the time Children of Blood and Bone came out where you said that you had gotten so anxious from all of the death of black men women and boys and girls that you were like,

[00:12:59] I'm going to try to finish this book if I don't die.

[00:13:02] So, yeah.

[00:13:03] So like how are you feeling trying to write all of the wrongs that you saw from the backlash from Hunger Games and putting that into your own novel and story and like healing yourself, but then also be being very afraid.

[00:13:19] Yeah, so it's the journey with my own mortality is actually like inherited from my mother because my mother lost her mother in a car accident when she was 17.

[00:13:33] And that obviously had a big effect on her and my mom comes from a big family so she really had to step up and be the maternal figure.

[00:13:41] My mom also would often remind us that it could happen at any point.

[00:13:45] So I was like part of is like, oh, I'm super aware of my mortality.

[00:13:48] I wonder why my mom's like clean your room.

[00:13:51] It's like, I'll do it later.

[00:13:52] Clean now.

[00:13:52] You know, she finally stopped when my sister was smart enough to use it against her where she's like, Mom, you said you take us for ice cream today and she's like, Oh, I'll take you tomorrow.

[00:14:02] She's like, you could die tomorrow.

[00:14:04] And she's like, damn it.

[00:14:06] So, but yeah, there's death.

[00:14:09] The awareness of death that trauma I do feel like I was born with that grief of losing a mother, but it's very prominent in children of blood and bone.

[00:14:19] So even before I went through.

[00:14:23] I say I but we as a community went through about if Trayvon Martin was 2012 about an eight year period of just routinely seeing ourselves be brutally murdered then have trials where the murderers were acquitted where it's like, oh, you can't even use the word murder.

[00:14:47] The killing.

[00:14:49] Yeah.

[00:14:49] There was a charge and they were acquitted.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:53] And just seeing that every day a new hashtag like my mom was the one who told me that like I would call her almost every day sobbing.

[00:15:02] And a big reason I wrote Children of Blood and Bone was because I was feeling so much emotional PTSD, and I didn't feel like anyone was discussing it.

[00:15:12] Like we were having other discussions about like justice and this but no one I wasn't going to be the one to tweet like, Hey, does anyone else have panic attacks now when they get in their car because they're scared they're going to be stopped by an officer and shot.

[00:15:26] Are you buying a holder for your iPhone to go live on Instagram if you're stopped by a cop?

[00:15:34] And is that really going to do anything?

[00:15:36] So I guess this is a long answer of saying I was born with a fear of my mortality and then that mortality then that was exacerbated.

[00:15:46] And I would say a lot of people look at my life and they're like you're so young you've achieved so much and I was like, well, I wasn't.

[00:15:53] I didn't know how long I had.

[00:15:56] I still don't know how long I have but I'm okay.

[00:15:59] I'm no longer racing against the hands of my inevitable mortality.

[00:16:04] I'm like, you know what?

[00:16:05] I'm good.

[00:16:06] I'm just going to like make some salmon and watch love is blind.

[00:16:10] Like I'm still grinding but like there was a ticking clock and every day I was like this could be my last day on earth.

[00:16:17] So I didn't know if I was going to live to finish book one if I was going to live to finish the trilogy and so that was normal mortality.

[00:16:24] And then it being and feeling very dangerous to be a black person in America for the last decade.

[00:16:30] How do you write and be creative under that kind of pressure?

[00:16:37] As I talk to you about this, it's like I almost want to cry for my past self because I'm like, oh girl, that's so much pain.

[00:16:47] But I feel for her because I'm like you went through so much.

[00:16:51] You went through so much.

[00:16:52] And that's just in one area of your life.

[00:16:56] Life is hard and life is life has been a little aggressive.

[00:17:02] I'm hoping the solar eclipse was like we're done.

[00:17:06] It's time to celebrate.

[00:17:08] So even when I was experiencing all this success, there was a lot happening in my life and my personal life.

[00:17:14] There was medical issues, tragedies, traumas.

[00:17:16] So I think I've been blessed and then creativity is the only way I've ever stayed sane.

[00:17:25] So like even with all that stress, that trauma, that it's like creativity was the place I put it.

[00:17:32] Writing was my wish fulfillment. It was my therapy. It was my healing.

[00:17:35] It was my processing.

[00:17:38] And I still feel like just as a human, no matter what I'm going through, I feel squirrely if I'm not writing or if I'm not creating, even if it's just jotting down.

[00:17:52] Like I'm writing a new, I'm almost done with my fourth book now.

[00:17:56] But like sometimes I'll be texting the director of the movie and we'll be working on a scene for the movie together.

[00:18:02] If that's the only writing I do that day, that's okay because if I'm not writing, I don't feel good.

[00:18:07] Let's talk about you. You mentioned that you were writing, what became the trilogy in 2016?

[00:18:13] It comes out 2018. So before then you have to get this publishing deal and you mentioned that it was before Black Panther.

[00:18:22] Like you were part of the wave that allowed people to see, oh, black people could be like main characters in science fiction and fantasy.

[00:18:29] And in the future, what was your publishing journey process like knowing that you were writing in rebellion and writing to be seen?

[00:18:41] Was that always met with as much enthusiasm as you're met with today?

[00:18:47] I think the incredible thing is I see this especially in literature.

[00:18:53] I think you can see it other places, but I see it especially in literature.

[00:18:58] I'll mess up the chronology, but it's like you have Octavia Butler who is, I think she was young.

[00:19:05] I think she was seven or eight and she's like watching a sci-fi something on TV or she's reading a book and she's like,

[00:19:13] I could do better than that. And that becomes her story.

[00:19:17] And I think she might be the first science fiction author to win a MacArthur genius grant.

[00:19:22] So you have someone like her, you have Toni Morrison who cooks, you know, cooks, cooks, cooks, cooks on the page in her interview.

[00:19:35] So it's like you have a push of the door. You have a push of the door for me in my childhood.

[00:19:42] If we're just talking black female authors, I would say the next one that comes to mind is Angie Thomas.

[00:19:47] She has this historic deal with the hate you give and it's about a black girl struggling with the black pain of today.

[00:19:55] And she has an eight house auction and she gets like a significant deal and a movie deal and an option and it's rolling.

[00:20:03] That's another black, like it's almost like a different version of Mount Rushmore.

[00:20:09] It's like an infant version. So because of Angie, I was like, oh, I know I could do it.

[00:20:14] And then I feel like I'm the next head there.

[00:20:17] And then a couple years later, I feel like Amanda Gorman was the next head.

[00:20:20] And I think it's like, I don't know who's coming next.

[00:20:23] But I know there's going to be a next because when a black woman does something, we watch.

[00:20:33] So I had that on one end in a general sense.

[00:20:37] There was a new wave of diverse fantasy authors writing diverse stories.

[00:20:43] So they're like, if I tried to publish Children of Bonobono five years earlier, I think it would have been more difficult self.

[00:20:50] But there'd been enough new things.

[00:20:53] So it's the culmination of all of this stuff.

[00:20:58] It's the culmination of the girl who wrote the horse story, the girl who wrote self love, the shooting of Trayvon Martin,

[00:21:05] the backlash against a manless Sternberg, the historic deal of the hate you give, the incredible also huge deal

[00:21:14] and option of an ember in the ashes, the new wave of epic fantasy where I was in my life

[00:21:20] and then ending up in a gift shop in Brazil to avoid the rain and seeing pictures of the Orisha.

[00:21:26] And now, like very soon to be this movie franchise explode in my mind.

[00:21:32] It's been a wild journey, but I'm like that's just too many things.

[00:21:36] Like Steve Jobs said that too.

[00:21:38] It's like when you hindsight is 2020, you see how all these dots connect when you're moving.

[00:21:42] But you don't see all these dots connect at all.

[00:21:45] I have my own testimony on that one.

[00:21:47] But yes, how have you seen the publishing industry change from when you entered with Children of Blood and Blown to where you are now

[00:21:55] with the coming release that will be out by the time this interview airs, Children of Anguish and Anarchy

[00:22:01] and what you're doing with your next novel?

[00:22:04] I've seen.

[00:22:06] I think we talked about the fact that now that when I when Amazon suggests my book and I click on it

[00:22:12] and I see a whole span of titles, I see people that I have mentored and their stories about the Orisha.

[00:22:21] I have two mentees from when I did Pitchfors Bloodsion by D'Aborre Filié.

[00:22:26] I'm forgetting the name of the book, but the author is Sian and Smart.

[00:22:30] I have a writer who took my online writing masterclass, The Writer's Roadmap,

[00:22:36] Natasha Bowen's Skin of the Sea.

[00:22:37] So it's like, I'm not just seeing like all these books.

[00:22:42] I'm seeing people that like I've actually mentored and I'm like, look at like Black History Month.

[00:22:47] It's like we're tossing them like dollar bills.

[00:22:50] Like we have so much.

[00:22:51] So it's a beautiful wave and it happened in Hollywood too.

[00:22:56] Like when the film rights for Children of Blood and Bone were acquired,

[00:22:59] there was a bunch of acquisitions of other African like fantasies.

[00:23:04] So I am so excited, especially because I'm working with Gina right now.

[00:23:10] This script brings me to tears.

[00:23:13] I'm like this adventure.

[00:23:16] It is everything I've ever loved in a young adult franchise and it is also everything I have never seen in my life.

[00:23:26] And I'm like, okay, so this is about to go off off.

[00:23:31] Like we're going all the way up.

[00:23:33] Like it's going crazy and everyone's going to be in their white micro braids.

[00:23:38] It's like we're talking barbrenheimer.

[00:23:39] And the beautiful thing is it's when we grew up on Harry Potter, it's like we were all watching Harry Potter.

[00:23:45] I was like, I'm not a little white British boy with green eyes living in a closet.

[00:23:50] But that was my story and I related to him.

[00:23:52] So it's like these young adult stories, these epic stories are stories for all of us.

[00:23:56] So to make a story for the world and also make something that means so much for our people, wild.

[00:24:07] And wild isn't even the right word, but it's just like the creative process, the collaboration, the team that's coming together.

[00:24:15] It has been so incredible.

[00:24:18] Oh, it's special.

[00:24:21] It's special.

[00:24:22] And yeah, like I could cry again because not even because I'm so happy.

[00:24:28] It's just when you see a special movie does something to you.

[00:24:33] Yeah, it started with a special book and we are now here to talk about the third installment.

[00:24:38] So I can think of no better time than to have you read a little bit from the Children of Anguish and Anarchy.

[00:24:45] Okay.

[00:24:45] So then we can get into it in all of my questions.

[00:24:49] Oh, and you've read it right?

[00:24:51] Girl, yes. I read it in four days.

[00:24:53] Oh, you read it in four days?

[00:24:55] Yes.

[00:24:55] The Children of Anguish and Anarchy begins exactly where Tomi Adeyame's last epic ends.

[00:25:03] Our favorite Magi Reaper, Zae Lee, is chained on a ship and struggling to tap into her magic to destroy an enemy,

[00:25:10] neither she nor any of her people in a splintered kingdom of Orisha ever saw coming.

[00:25:16] As the story unfolds, enemies must become friends and new alliances must be formed if Zae Lee and Orisha are ever to survive.

[00:25:26] Here's Tomi.

[00:25:27] All right.

[00:25:28] Our reading from Children of Anguish and Anarchy.

[00:25:32] I keep thinking about before, before it all began, before the scroll and the stone and the promise of magic,

[00:25:38] before our war against the monarchy broke out across the lands.

[00:25:41] I think of the divine storm the Ayika brought to Lagos' gates,

[00:25:46] the way the palace windows shattered like glittering rain.

[00:25:49] I think of Mama and Baba of my brother Zane.

[00:25:53] I think of Mazzelli and my Reapers of how we were supposed to rain.

[00:25:57] That was before the skulls threw us onto their ships,

[00:26:00] before they stripped us of all we had,

[00:26:02] before they dragged me away from those I loved,

[00:26:05] held me down and shaved my head.

[00:26:07] Before I looked into the eyes of my abductors and could only see the blood ruins carved into their masks.

[00:26:13] I think of all the magi who were stolen from their lands,

[00:26:16] all the magi who will never feel Orisha again.

[00:26:21] Okay, so you just start us right there.

[00:26:23] So I think like everybody else who was invested in this series was hella mad at you at the end of Children of Virtue and Vengeance.

[00:26:31] I'm like we're in the war, they're about to win, and then all of a sudden WTF?

[00:26:35] Yes.

[00:26:36] Why are they chained on a boat?

[00:26:39] And then not only are they chained on a boat,

[00:26:41] we don't get any hints about the final installment for years.

[00:26:46] Yes.

[00:26:47] Take your time, it's fine.

[00:26:48] I'm like is she taking us into slavery because I can't.

[00:26:51] I can't with the slavery.

[00:26:54] Yes.

[00:26:55] Well no, she's not taking us into slavery.

[00:26:57] No, we're not going into slavery.

[00:26:59] For everyone that was wondering we are not in slavery.

[00:27:01] Yes.

[00:27:02] However, there is another type of, they are in bondage and they are captured,

[00:27:09] but it's because the world is a lot bigger than the children could have ever imagined at this point.

[00:27:16] They're not children anymore.

[00:27:17] They're having to put their differences aside and battle forces that are trying to basically decimate the world.

[00:27:25] Where did this come from as the final installment?

[00:27:27] Because first it was just like self-love and then it was like civil war and now it's like global war.

[00:27:34] So there's a really cool story about how I at least knew what the conflict for each book would be.

[00:27:41] So I used to live in Los Angeles.

[00:27:43] My older brother lived in Los Angeles at the time.

[00:27:47] He's a musician, shout out Toby Lou if you're a Toby Lou fan.

[00:27:49] He would pick me up and we would drive to church together on Sundays

[00:27:53] and we would just sort of talk about what we were doing because we were both in our creative hustle.

[00:27:58] But to go back to that time in my life, I had discovered the world of Orisha had found me in the gift shop in Brazil

[00:28:07] like about six months prior.

[00:28:10] I just didn't know what the characters of the story were.

[00:28:13] I knew what the world looked like.

[00:28:14] I was like there's these gods and goddesses and there's temples and they ride lions.

[00:28:19] And I could see the world as if it was a world you could play in a video game or Sims, but I just didn't know what the plot was.

[00:28:28] So we would sort of workshop it on these drives over the course of several drives and I would be like,

[00:28:34] I think I figured it out.

[00:28:35] Like I think it's a world where there used to be magic and then the magic was taken away

[00:28:40] and then in the first book they're fighting to get the magic back.

[00:28:43] And my brother was like, I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:28:46] And I'm like, the fuck you mean?

[00:28:47] And he was like, you know, you talk to your siblings.

[00:28:53] And he was like, I feel like the first book should be them losing magic.

[00:28:57] The second book should be them getting them back and then the third book would be something else.

[00:29:02] And I was like, no, that's not it.

[00:29:04] But I didn't know what it was.

[00:29:06] And then maybe two or three drives later, I was like, okay, Toby, I got it.

[00:29:09] The first book is them getting magic back.

[00:29:12] The next book is them bringing magic back to even more people than they realized and then basically that devolving into Civil War.

[00:29:21] The third book is an enemy that none of them could see coming attacking and which forces them to find a way to work together to defeat this enemy or perish.

[00:29:33] And he goes, okay, that makes sense.

[00:29:34] I knew what the main conflict would be for all three.

[00:29:37] And then the other thing about my books is they're kind of like Taylor Swift albums.

[00:29:42] The difference is you don't know, like when she says Zaley stabs this woman 10 times, who is the woman?

[00:29:48] You don't know.

[00:29:48] But it's very, like I said, I get that.

[00:29:52] There was a mix.

[00:29:53] I knew what the plot would be, but like book one, I'm dealing with all the emotional PTSD from all the police brutality and all the lack of justice.

[00:30:04] Book two, I wrote about it.

[00:30:07] And it's how I was feeling.

[00:30:10] The part in book two where they're trying to infiltrate Ibadon to assassinate Queen Nihonda and Anon, and it goes wrong and they fall into a trap and there's an explosion.

[00:30:26] So it's right toward the end.

[00:30:28] It's right toward the end.

[00:30:31] Do you mind if I read it?

[00:30:32] Go for it.

[00:30:33] The pain is too much to take yet the same agony spurs me on.

[00:30:37] The pain I've been so afraid to feel is how I know I'm still alive.

[00:30:41] It's how I know there's still something inside me that can fight.

[00:30:45] Itona abadain, the tattoos on my skin ignite with golden light as I invoke the command in my head.

[00:30:51] A silent scream escapes and bubbles as I roar.

[00:30:54] Though I have nothing left to give, I push with all that I am.

[00:30:57] My leg sears a stone cuts to the bone scraping the flesh from my skin.

[00:31:01] With a gasp my leg breaks free.

[00:31:04] My arms start to move.

[00:31:06] Water fights me as I kick off the lake floor following that one command.

[00:31:10] Zayn, Amari, Rowan.

[00:31:12] If I die now they don't stand a chance.

[00:31:16] Live.

[00:31:17] Every muscle in my body falls limp depleted of all oxygen.

[00:31:20] But I lift a shaking hand picturing every one of my reapers.

[00:31:25] A purple glow cuts through the darkness rumbling as shadows twist from my fingers.

[00:31:29] They latch onto something above, pulling me up through the water.

[00:31:33] As I rise it all falls away.

[00:31:36] Every ounce of pain.

[00:31:37] Mazzelli's final words.

[00:31:39] Baba's smile.

[00:31:41] The chain they wrapped around Mama's neck.

[00:31:43] I choke as I leave every scar they carved onto my heart behind and break through the water surface.

[00:31:49] Live.

[00:31:49] I want to live.

[00:31:53] So that was where I was emotionally writing book 2.

[00:31:59] And it's, I was like, I remembered it but it was the line where it's like,

[00:32:03] oh all this pain I'm feeling is how I know I'm still alive.

[00:32:06] Something beautiful in that.

[00:32:07] So I guess that's when I'm like, there's stories and I knew what the plots would be.

[00:32:12] But then every book meets me where I am emotionally.

[00:32:17] They meet me where I am in my life.

[00:32:18] And like book 3 met me at a very difficult time.

[00:32:23] Like a part of the reason it took so long is because I had some like very

[00:32:27] dire medical issues and I had to heal and recuperate from them.

[00:32:32] So I feel like that Zaley's arc in the third book of like,

[00:32:37] you feel like a shell of yourself.

[00:32:40] You feel so weak and taken away from everything you've known in your strength.

[00:32:44] And then you find it in a new way and I don't want to reveal the other characters.

[00:32:48] But yeah, that's a very long answer to I'm struggling to have to sing dancers.

[00:32:54] I'm like, well, but I think that's I guess it's because these books in my life are so wrapped together.

[00:33:01] Yeah.

[00:33:02] Yes, it's a very tangled, tangled web.

[00:33:05] Mm hmm.

[00:33:06] I want to go to something that you've said a couple of times where even though you

[00:33:09] are Nigerian American, that the Orisha didn't confront you until you were in Brazil,

[00:33:16] which is a riff on Yoruba being candomblay there.

[00:33:20] Yeah.

[00:33:21] And so then you're seeing the Orisha, so Oya who is Zaley's patron Orisha and all the other

[00:33:28] shango, shun, everyone else.

[00:33:30] Did you then wonder why you had never grown up with that religious spiritual knowledge?

[00:33:37] I remember calling like I was so abuzz when I like saw this photo and found out like what

[00:33:45] the Orisha were.

[00:33:46] And I remember calling my mom like, oh my God, have you ever heard of this thing like Orisa?

[00:33:51] And she's like, Oh, it is.

[00:33:55] So you know this enough to give me shade about it, but you've never talked to me about it.

[00:34:00] So what I describe it as is like going halfway across the world to find treasure buried in

[00:34:07] your own backyard.

[00:34:08] And so I didn't necessarily wonder why I didn't grow up with it because I'm like, I've grown

[00:34:15] with it the past 10 years and it's been a wild ride.

[00:34:19] Like this story, it feels so much bigger than me.

[00:34:26] This trilogy feels so much bigger than me.

[00:34:28] Like there's just something that is so hero's journey about the trilogy and the adventure

[00:34:34] I went on to write it and had to experience to write it.

[00:34:37] And like the age during it and like who I was after it that I'm like, it's I feel like it

[00:34:44] found me at the right time when I was ready.

[00:34:48] And like I said, when it found me there was no delay.

[00:34:51] So I was like, it definitely felt like they were like, we're when you're ready, we'll

[00:34:56] hand this to you.

[00:34:57] And the world is ready.

[00:34:59] I guess I think it's like Black Panther has happened.

[00:35:02] And Gina did the old guard and then the woman King.

[00:35:06] It's like all these things have, like I said, there's, you see how difficult it is for me

[00:35:14] to talk about one thing because I'm like, well, it's connected to these eight other

[00:35:17] Nexus points in my life.

[00:35:19] And then there's all these other people and all their other Nexus points in their

[00:35:23] life.

[00:35:24] And so I say it like with humility, I was like, it feels a lot bigger than me.

[00:35:29] Because like at the time that the book came out, I was learning more about African

[00:35:34] traditional religions.

[00:35:35] I've had lots of different friends who were, I can't remember the right word.

[00:35:40] Damn it.

[00:35:41] It's not a baptism.

[00:35:42] It's not inducted.

[00:35:43] It's not a cult.

[00:35:45] Initiation.

[00:35:45] That one.

[00:35:46] That's the word.

[00:35:48] We're initiated have some friends who are initiated in Nigeria, some who were

[00:35:51] initiated locally or in Puerto Rico.

[00:35:54] So the different offshoots of Yoruba.

[00:35:56] And so then to see it in the book, I was like, okay, it's familiar.

[00:36:00] I knew enough to know, okay, to associate the colors and all of that.

[00:36:04] And so it was here.

[00:36:04] So it's a lot of different Nexus points.

[00:36:06] And you talk about how the world was ready for all of this at the time

[00:36:10] that it came.

[00:36:11] And now we're here with the trilogy.

[00:36:14] How do you feel about the end of this particular story and how it's

[00:36:19] grown with it?

[00:36:20] I'm proud of her.

[00:36:21] I'm proud of her and I'm proud of myself.

[00:36:24] Yeah.

[00:36:24] I'm so grateful to the community I have around me.

[00:36:30] I think like in the acknowledgments, it's like to my parent family and closest

[00:36:35] friends, like sorry for being annoying for seven years.

[00:36:38] So no spoilers, but it's a mirror moment from book one in the first time

[00:36:43] she uses magic.

[00:36:45] But the spiritual significance.

[00:36:47] I remember when I was writing that scene and it felt like a purging from the

[00:36:55] middle passage.

[00:36:57] Like I was writing and it really felt like all of this was like what was

[00:37:03] happening in the book felt like it was coming through me and it was such,

[00:37:07] it was so overwhelming and it was very emotional.

[00:37:12] And I was like sobbing while I was writing and I just felt all these

[00:37:16] things coming up because I knew what I wanted that moment to symbolize.

[00:37:20] Like obviously it has symbolism within the world of the story, but I feel our

[00:37:28] people are going to feel that symbolism too.

[00:37:31] And the idea of that being on screen one day excites me if people are

[00:37:36] saying like what do you most want to see?

[00:37:37] It's like that scene.

[00:37:38] Like we're taking it one movie at a time, one page at a time, but

[00:37:41] I'm already like I want to see my girl and all of our people who were

[00:37:49] lost because when they're like, I was like, no, I'm not going to tell a

[00:37:53] slavery story because that's all we get.

[00:37:56] But I guess it's my healing.

[00:37:59] It was like my fantasy of what I wish could have happened.

[00:38:03] I will say it like this since you couldn't say any of it.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:08] That it's a return to self.

[00:38:10] It's a returning of yourself to yourself in your life and not having the

[00:38:15] fears that you had before.

[00:38:17] And in the character arc in the story of Zellie and Orisha, it's the return

[00:38:23] home and knowing that magic is not evil and that we've all we got really

[00:38:30] and acknowledging that and that being a strength more than anything,

[00:38:34] not a hindrance, it's a strength and that you can find collectivism

[00:38:38] and joy and peace and love in knowing that we've all we got.

[00:38:42] So I'll sum it up that way.

[00:38:44] Yeah, I love your spoilers.

[00:38:47] I love your summaries.

[00:38:49] So I want to switch to a speed round in a game before I let you go for the

[00:38:53] afternoon.

[00:38:54] What is your favorite book?

[00:38:56] Oh.

[00:38:59] First thing that came to mind was The Outsiders by Essie Hinton.

[00:39:04] Okay.

[00:39:05] Who was your favorite?

[00:39:05] Oh, Sabotear.

[00:39:08] Lover.

[00:39:09] Okay.

[00:39:10] You've mentioned Love is Blind a lot, but I want to know what's your

[00:39:12] favorite TV show?

[00:39:14] Oh my goodness.

[00:39:15] That's much harder.

[00:39:17] All my other favorite TV shows are like always on a loop.

[00:39:21] I'm always listening to them.

[00:39:23] I fall asleep to them, but succession is like I'm not letting

[00:39:26] myself just continuously have Brian Cox being like F off.

[00:39:32] So I think that's my favorite.

[00:39:34] I think it goes to you, Jesse Armstrong.

[00:39:36] So before yours comes out, what is the best current book to movie

[00:39:41] or TV show adaptation?

[00:39:44] Yeah.

[00:39:46] I'm going to be like K-Dot and say it's mine.

[00:39:50] I know that's a cheat, but I'm going to say it.

[00:39:55] It's not because when it finally was announced that it was

[00:39:58] Gina Prince by the wood and you finally team it up to bring

[00:40:01] us this movie that we've been waiting on since 2018.

[00:40:05] I was like, and it's worth the wait because she did

[00:40:07] One Mankind, she did Love and Basketball, she did Be on the

[00:40:09] Light, she has like the history is deep and this can only

[00:40:14] be magical.

[00:40:15] So I'm not even mad anymore.

[00:40:16] So yes, it's yours.

[00:40:18] It's money with no object.

[00:40:19] Where would you go?

[00:40:20] What would you do?

[00:40:21] And where would you live?

[00:40:22] Oh my God.

[00:40:24] I think I'd be living the life I'm living right now.

[00:40:27] And I say a huge amen to that.

[00:40:30] I'm a huge advocate for that, especially for women.

[00:40:33] I'm like, I like to tell, I'm the dream strategist.

[00:40:38] Like my thing is literally making someone telling me what

[00:40:42] they want and then me making a chart and showing them a

[00:40:44] reality and then making the three to five year plan to

[00:40:46] get there.

[00:40:47] And I do this for myself all the time.

[00:40:49] I actually am making a journal to share the process,

[00:40:52] but like I have to finish this next book and put

[00:40:55] out the thing.

[00:40:56] But like I literally made a journal to just create the

[00:40:59] process for myself and share it with others.

[00:41:02] So yeah, I'm a big believer in the women were gifted

[00:41:05] with the ability to create life and you can use that

[00:41:08] ability to create the life of your dream.

[00:41:10] Amen.

[00:41:11] Yes, I say what brings you joy?

[00:41:14] Jelly beans and on Tik Tok.

[00:41:19] And then what brings you peace?

[00:41:22] Oh, hot showers, journaling, talking things out with

[00:41:27] my little sister.

[00:41:29] All right.

[00:41:29] So our game is called rewriting the classics.

[00:41:31] Classic is however you define it.

[00:41:34] Name one book you wished you would have written 100.

[00:41:39] Love that shit.

[00:41:40] Love that shit.

[00:41:41] Yeah, that's just crazy.

[00:41:43] I just wore so much, but yeah, use that one.

[00:41:46] It's fine.

[00:41:48] Name one book where you want to change the ending

[00:41:50] and how would you do it?

[00:41:52] Oh, this is like the question I've been waiting for my

[00:41:55] whole life and like obvious now I'm stuck.

[00:41:59] I like I get so angry about stories all the time.

[00:42:03] So which one is it?

[00:42:05] This one is small but mighty at the end of the

[00:42:09] hunger games.

[00:42:10] It didn't agree with me that Katniss voted to have

[00:42:13] a final hunger games.

[00:42:15] Yeah.

[00:42:16] And I fully understand blood for blood, but it was

[00:42:19] there was just something about it where I'm like, no.

[00:42:21] And it's always bothered me.

[00:42:24] It's always bothered me.

[00:42:25] Not enough that I would like if I ever got the

[00:42:27] honor of talking to Susan Collins, I'd be like,

[00:42:29] why'd you do this?

[00:42:30] Like it doesn't bother me that much.

[00:42:31] But like if this is our game, we're playing it.

[00:42:34] And then the other one is basically every Jean

[00:42:37] gray dark Phoenix storyline.

[00:42:39] I'm so tired of everyone being like, oh my god, Jean,

[00:42:42] you're too powerful.

[00:42:43] Oh my god, Jean, you disintegrated everything with

[00:42:47] your cosmic force.

[00:42:49] Oh my god, Jean, you must sacrifice.

[00:42:51] I'd be like just burn it to the ground.

[00:42:55] Well, Magneto does tell her to do that.

[00:42:57] Who? Magneto?

[00:42:59] Oh yeah, I'm with Magneto.

[00:43:01] I'm tired of all these.

[00:43:02] I'm like, just let her be a cosmic Phoenix of destruction.

[00:43:08] It's natural.

[00:43:09] We had a meteor, right?

[00:43:11] It wiped out the dinosaurs.

[00:43:12] I'm so tired about all these people being like,

[00:43:14] why aren't you nice anymore?

[00:43:15] And I'm like, because she is a cosmic force of destruction.

[00:43:18] Let her be.

[00:43:20] I am so tired of every storyline being, I hate that.

[00:43:23] I'm like, let her be.

[00:43:25] And in fact, just give it to storm.

[00:43:28] I can't disagree with that.

[00:43:30] Okay.

[00:43:31] Final question for rewriting the classics.

[00:43:33] It's my shady question and you have to answer

[00:43:35] because I know you have opinions.

[00:43:36] Oh my god.

[00:43:37] Name a book that you think is overrated,

[00:43:40] overtaught, and why?

[00:43:42] You can't answer this one.

[00:43:44] Yes, you can.

[00:43:46] I can.

[00:43:47] If you do only dead old white men, that's fine.

[00:43:49] But you're going to answer this question.

[00:43:51] Yes, you can.

[00:43:52] You absolutely can.

[00:43:52] There's something in temporaries and I can't be messy.

[00:43:55] I see these people.

[00:43:56] I see these people.

[00:43:58] You don't have to do contemporary.

[00:43:59] I said do dead old white men.

[00:44:00] I know there's a book that you hated with it you read

[00:44:02] when you were growing up in your community.

[00:44:04] Tell it to me.

[00:44:06] Here's the issue is I hated almost everything I read

[00:44:09] as a child because they had us reading Thoreau

[00:44:11] in the woods.

[00:44:12] And I remember I think I was in seventh grade and we read

[00:44:15] Death of a Salesman and I'm like, this is whack.

[00:44:18] And then I read it again in college and I'm like,

[00:44:20] this is the most brilliant piece of American play.

[00:44:23] So I was like, this is the American dream.

[00:44:26] Like it's so I don't trust anything I read as a child

[00:44:30] because I hated all of it.

[00:44:32] I just wanted to watch anime and read like the magic tree

[00:44:35] house.

[00:44:36] So I can't if I'm going to trash someone and say it

[00:44:39] with my chest, I need to at least read it.

[00:44:41] At least revisit it as an adult and be like, yeah,

[00:44:43] no, I do hate this shit.

[00:44:44] But what's something I think is overrated?

[00:44:49] Yeah, there's a lot of series that I think are overrated.

[00:44:52] But again, I see these people.

[00:44:54] So I'm not about to be like, all right,

[00:44:57] having an SNL IO moment and being like, you know,

[00:45:02] like you want to talk one on one.

[00:45:04] Sure.

[00:45:05] Okay.

[00:45:06] That's fair.

[00:45:07] Yeah.

[00:45:07] That is fair.

[00:45:08] All right.

[00:45:09] Final question for the day.

[00:45:11] When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors,

[00:45:14] would you like someone to write about you and the legacy

[00:45:18] of words and work that you left behind?

[00:45:21] I thought about this a lot.

[00:45:23] I want someone to put like all my awards in one column

[00:45:28] and then all my social media comments in another

[00:45:32] because they're wild.

[00:45:36] The duality is what I because it is and I think people too.

[00:45:40] They're always like, they're like, oh,

[00:45:41] you're not like what I thought you'd be when I read your books.

[00:45:44] And I was like, well, I put all the,

[00:45:45] I was like all the dramas in the,

[00:45:47] all my Scorpio was in my book.

[00:45:49] So you guys get to enjoy a Leo with some eccentricities.

[00:45:54] But yeah, I just think my comments are funny.

[00:45:58] And sometimes I'm like,

[00:45:59] it's funny that you're like a prolific,

[00:46:01] like you're like the great American novelist and you're under

[00:46:06] someone's comment.

[00:46:07] Like all my comments are in all caps.

[00:46:09] They're all misspelled.

[00:46:13] So I think that's just kind of what I,

[00:46:16] and then I want people to post like all my,

[00:46:18] all my photos or is like, oh, she was bad.

[00:46:21] Yeah.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:23] Be like, oh, this photo of her, she was bad.

[00:46:26] Like, I don't know.

[00:46:26] I don't think I want people to be sad.

[00:46:28] I think I want them to be like, she did that.

[00:46:31] She was sexy.

[00:46:31] She was crazy.

[00:46:33] We lived her books forever.

[00:46:34] Cause then I also feel like I'm sort of going to be like

[00:46:37] cosmic force, like flying through the sky,

[00:46:40] like body rolls.

[00:46:43] All cowboy Carter.

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:46] A dress made of stars.

[00:46:48] So it's like, I hope I can grant wishes.

[00:46:50] So I'm not too, I'm more just be like,

[00:46:52] at least point out how funny I was.

[00:46:54] Thank you so much.

[00:46:55] This has been the best time of my day,

[00:47:00] probably of my life so far.

[00:47:02] Thank you.

[00:47:03] Thank you.

[00:47:04] This has been really amazing.

[00:47:06] Big thank you to Tommy Adeyemi for being here today

[00:47:08] on Black and Published.

[00:47:10] Make sure you check out Tommy's latest novel,

[00:47:13] The Children of Anguish and Anarchy.

[00:47:16] It's the third and final installment in the legacy

[00:47:18] of Orisha Trilogy out now from Henry Holt.

[00:47:22] And if you're not following,

[00:47:23] follow me, follow her on the socials.

[00:47:26] She's at Tommy Adeyemi on Twitter and Instagram.

[00:47:31] And Adeyemi is A-D-E-Y-E-M-I.

[00:47:37] That's our show for the week.

[00:47:39] If you liked this episode and want more Black and

[00:47:42] published, head to our Instagram page.

[00:47:44] It's at Black and Published and that's BLK

[00:47:49] and published there.

[00:47:51] I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Tommy

[00:47:54] about her advice to creatives still in the hustle.

[00:47:58] Make sure you check it out and let me know

[00:48:00] what you think in the comments.

[00:48:02] I'll highlight you all next week when our guest will be

[00:48:05] Melissa McGoyoung, author of the novel, Oyay.

[00:48:09] It was such a gift to have this book in my mind

[00:48:14] and be working on it when my grandmother did pass

[00:48:16] because it gave me somewhere to put my grief immediately

[00:48:19] and I got to kind of hang out with her every single day still.

[00:48:23] It's helping me like continue her life, continue to talk to her

[00:48:26] and do something for her and like build this thing for her.

[00:48:30] That's next week on Black and Published.

[00:48:32] I'll talk to you then. Peace.