How to Black Girl with Amena Brown

[00:00:00] What's good, family? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, the host of Black & Published Podcast, and the author of the novel The Seven Daughters of Dupree. This historical fiction novel is about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations, and is told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. The Seven Daughters of Dupree was published January 27th, 2026, and is available everywhere books are sold.

[00:00:28] So if you can, please consider getting a copy of The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. This is the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. This feels a little like my reasonable doubt how, like, Jay-Z would talk about, it's like all the stories from his years up until that moment. This book is like that, but it's like all the things I could not say in Christian publishing. I can just put them here.

[00:00:55] What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, and this is Black & Published, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Amena Brown, author of the essay collection, Never Tell a Black Girl How to Black Girl.

[00:01:14] It's not Amena's first book, but the first where she felt like she could say what she wanted, how she wanted, and to whom she wanted, after years of holding her tongue in public and on the page. When George Zimmerman was acquitted, I just could not hold it in. And I said on social media my feelings. And those white people jumped in the comments very quickly. Amena is an accomplished spoken word poet with five albums under her belt.

[00:01:43] And even though this book marked her Big Five debut, she explains why she will always refer to herself as an independent performing artist. Plus, how long it took for her to deconstruct and unlearn the harmful conservative Christian theology that had to be included in her first two books before she found her authentic voice.

[00:02:06] And in setting out on the path to become a writer, why Amena questioned her mother's taste as her first literary critic. That and more is next when Black & Published continues. And as a note, this episode has lots of language and is probably not suitable for children. Do with that information what you will.

[00:02:38] Amena, welcome to Black & Published. First of all. We're here. We're here together. First question. When did you know that you were a writer? I think I knew I was a writer when I was 12 years old. That was the moment that I remember starting to write outside of class and write in little notebooks and different things.

[00:03:02] My mom still swears to this day that I am a mini Black version of Emily Dickinson because growing up there was just all sorts of scraps of pages and papers of things that she continues to find. And even all these years that I have no longer lived with her. She's like, did you know you kept this little, this little thing? You folded this up and I unfolded it. Your writing was in here. So since I was 12.

[00:03:29] Was it always entertainment value that you were seeking when you went to the page or was there something else deeper that you were looking to accomplish while writing? I was for better and for worse, never a cathartic writer. So it wasn't a lot of like feelings and emotions that led me to there, but it was sort of like, I wonder what that story is about. I wonder what that leaf thinks about if that leaf could be a person. And that is sort of what put me to there. So it's always the curiosity, but I believe your first form was poetry. Yes.

[00:03:59] Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What was it about poetry that you felt like you could express all of those different curiosities that didn't necessarily have to do with finding some own solution or salve or catharsis? Shout out to Miss Perry in the fourth grade for giving us Dr. King speeches to read. And then she said, you can write your own poetry book inspired by the things that you have read in Dr. King speeches.

[00:04:27] I still have that to this day. It has my, my elementary school best friend's mother's hand towel was the cover because we were supposed to bring fabric. Like Miss Perry said, bring your printed pages. She said, I'm gonna have cardboard and duct tape. So bring your pages. And then she said, bring fabric or a towel. We took my friend Portia's mama's towels. Not the hand, not the good hand towels out the bathroom. Yeah.

[00:04:57] Yeah. With the butterflies on it. I still don't know if she ever. Don't even use them to dry your hands for real. Yeah. I don't know if she ever was like, whatever happened to those towels? They are the cover of my little poetry book. So I think poetry as a form, especially as a kid, for me felt like the sort of easiest barrier to entry because it could be short. It could rhyme or it didn't have to rhyme. But I think trying that in class made me then say, well, what would it be like if I tried that out of class?

[00:05:23] Or if I wrote that in this notebook in math class instead of paying attention, which is a part of how I became a writer. What did your poetic trajectory look like? How did that carry you? I started out just writing things on the page. I grew up in a black church. And so a part of the relationship to poetry growing up in a black church was definitely understanding that poetry was meant to be orated.

[00:05:45] So I remember memorizing Maya Angelou's work, memorizing James Weldon Johnson and those poets that were writing these very epic, you know, three minute, four minute pieces. And so I think that sort of got in my mind and thinking, what is the place of poetry to stage? But I was a very shy child. I would not take my own work to stage ever. But we had a oratorical competition when I was growing up.

[00:06:12] And my mom would get mad that I never won because I was memorizing the works of other poets. She believed I would have won if I would have done my own work. And I was like, but can you be trusted as a literary critic, as my mother? Like, I don't know of my works. I don't know. Like, are you going to think everything's broken? I just wasn't sure about trusting her. So two things converged that sort of turned me from a shy girl that was writing poetry to a girl that took that to stage.

[00:06:40] One of them was the movie Love Jones. This is very paramount for many of us that became black performance poets. If you look at that movie, I feel like you would have a large spider web of a bunch of black poets that were like, and that's how I knew that this is a thing. I just remember watching Lorenz Tate's character and being like, what is this? What is that?

[00:07:06] It sounds like hip hop, but it sounds like jazz, but it sounds like poetry. I want to do that. I want to do that. And I was living in San Antonio, Texas. We didn't have a scene like they had a scene in Chicago or in New York or L.A. or even Atlanta. We didn't have a scene. There wasn't a place I could have gone as a teenager and went to there and heard what I was hearing in the movie Love Jones. So that was half of it. The other half is my mother found one of my poems and she said, well, I'm going to submit this to a competition.

[00:07:36] And the competition was the NAACP Act So, and for people who aren't familiar, it still exists today. And there are all these different categories that students can compete in and poetry was one of them. And so my mom submitted me for that and didn't tell me at all until it won. And she was like, oh, guess what we're going to do on Saturday? She was like, your poem won this competition. We're going to go to there and you're going to read your poem. Out loud.

[00:08:03] That you wrote out loud to those people and they're going to give you a certificate. And I was raised in an era where you were not going to tell your mother, no, you weren't going to say that to her. I didn't want to go. And I thought it was a terrible idea. And I told that to my boom box and my pillows in my bedroom very quietly. And I was dressed. I was dressed Saturday at the time she told me to be dressed. So, yes, I went to there. I did my works in front of those people.

[00:08:31] And they received it so well that I performed my own work from that time on. So shout out to my mom not believing in privacy. And how old were you when this poem was submitted to Act So for the NAACP? It was my last year of high school. I was 17. From 17 on, you've been hitting that mic and getting on that stage doing these here poems. Indeed. What made you want to write an essay collection at this juncture in your life? Now, I have two books before this.

[00:09:01] And it's hard to say to me, are they spiritual memoir or were they also essay collections? But my two books prior to this were written in Christian publishing, in conservative Christian publishing at that. So I think I would always say- Not the like way. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Okay. Okay. We're talking University Press. We're talking Zondervan, those books. Huh? The same people who put the Bibles out also put out my second book.

[00:09:31] It's what happened there. Zondervan absolutely does publish Bibles. Yeah. They put the Bibles out. That's, that's a real thing. So when I look back at that work, it's sort of like I could look back at that work and see that there was like an essayist trying to come out. But because I was writing Christian publishing, you know, if I were to pontificate about the nosiness of social media, then I still have to say, but what would Jesus do on social media?

[00:09:57] Like you can't really let the essay actually do its complete thing because you kind of have to make it preach at the end. So I had always wanted to write an essay collection because I love reading them. And I sometimes love, depending on the essayist, that there is a bit of randomness that gets to happen there because you're not necessarily cataloging a particular period of life. You can sort of bop in and out of some topics. But I will tell you this book was originally pitched as a poetry book.

[00:10:26] I went to my literary agent and I said, I've never put out a poetry book because I'm a spoken word poet. I've put out albums. I've put out five spoken word albums. So I said, I have all these poems lying around. Let's do a poetry book. My agent said, can you just give me a couple of essays to put in there, please? So I said, OK. And I started writing and I was like, what are all the things in Christian publishing that I couldn't talk about? And the first thing that came to my mind was titties.

[00:10:55] I always wanted larger titties and I really wanted a C cup. And I feel that my prayers were not answered the way, you know, I was just like, in a sense, kind of shit talking to my mind. I don't even think I thought I was achieving comedic essay. I just was like, here's some shit I always wanted to say. So when this arrived to my now publisher, Tiny Reparations, they said, hey, we want a book of mostly essays. We want more essays and less poems.

[00:11:24] So then I got off the call and I was like, wait, I'm writing a book of essays and a funny essays? And that? This was not my intention. What's that scripture about planning and God? Yeah. Yeah. Proverbs three. Yeah. So that is how we arrived at this.

[00:11:49] But I will say, as a stage person, if you were to come to my show, if I were to perform for an hour, I'd probably do six or eight poems, which only take two to three minutes each. The majority of the time of that show is me telling stories. So I think in a way, this essay collection sort of was in part some reverse engineering. There were some of these essays that were stories I was telling on stage that I needed to reverse engineer back onto the page because Never Tell a Black Girl How to Black Girl also has a stage show.

[00:12:17] So there are certain essays that were written here that will also become stories on stage. So I think it's the storyteller and the essayist that are. Handshake emoji. Okay. So the handshake emoji means they've met. But was it easy to really be this honest, but also comedic about these different moments and portions of your life? I would say this book was easier than the last.

[00:12:44] And in part, because when you're writing in Christian publishing, at least in the era in which I was writing, there was a way that you were supposed to look at your life and think about what was the hardest thing you've been through. And right from there so that then you can express this particular way that God redeemed that for you or that God caused this particular change, etc. So I also was not in therapy when I was writing my last book.

[00:13:10] I went into therapy afterwards because I had written some vulnerable things there. And I'm in very white, conservative spaces going to these events. People coming up to the book signing line talking sideways. So I was in therapy after the book came out.

[00:13:28] And my Black woman therapist said, hey, next time you write a book, be in therapy while you're writing so that we can make some decisions about what you decide to include here. And if your mental health is ready for that to be in the public. All right. So today is July 14th in the year of our Lord, 20 and 26. There is a national conversation.

[00:13:52] There's a national Black conversation among the Blacks who identify as such about what it is to be Black and white spaces and the inherent harm that lives there. Why? And I hope you don't take this as an affront, but I'm very curious.

[00:14:10] Why, when you were doing Christian publishing, were you doing the circuit, the touring circuit in these non-denominational, come as you are, super, uber Christian conservative spaces, even if the pastor was Black? My, my. I think that ended up happening for two reasons.

[00:14:36] I think one, I grew up in a Black church, but then my college Black church was one of those Black churches that was pastored by a Black pastor, that the congregation was predominantly Black. But they sort of had this kind of sister ministry relationship to a white ministry also. And the white ministry saw me do spoken word. They don't know what this is.

[00:15:03] In Black churches, even if they didn't know the term spoken word, we've been doing poetry in church and oration and performances. I mean, even the art of Black preaching is itself a very poetic art as well, right? So this is their first time seeing this whole thing. So in a sense, at 22 years old, I get that first opportunity from them to go do this event that was in a church that seats 1,500 people, that was simulcast to over 20,000 people.

[00:15:30] This was back when simulcast was like the thing. So I went from that to getting invited to all of these arenas and events, 17,000, 18,000 people, predominantly white Christians. Now, the other layer I should add here is I grew up in a type of Black church that also sort of communicated to you, whether directly or indirectly, that anyone who names the name of Jesus is your family. Whether they look like you or they don't, they're your family.

[00:15:59] And sometimes there was communication indirectly to say they might be more your family than somebody who looks like you and isn't a Christian, right? So that was sort of the spirit in which I professionally entered white conservative Christian space. Well, I'm a Christian. You're a Christian. We're family, aren't we? Until it became really clear that we weren't family. I was like, did you know that you were being tokenized?

[00:16:28] No, no, not at all. There's also a conversation about that lady, and I'm not going to call that lady's name, but y'all know that lady that I'm talking about that also got her career start in spoken words saying some very wild things about Black people. And now she has this very large platform. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:53] What kind of unlearning did you have to do to leave those spaces and not feel guilty? I think a part of what happened, and this is funny but also really true, I can look at a couple of markers that happened there. One of them was the murder of Trayvon Martin and then the subsequent acquittal of George Zimmerman. So 2012, 2013. Right.

[00:17:17] So I was also being raised to see being political as being divisive. So even as my sort of like platform was rising, I was sort of being told or advised by mentors and various people, like maybe you don't need to speak upon this or speak upon that. You know, you just need to focus on air quotes, the word of God. I was doing worship poems. I was going on during the time the band was singing their worship songs, right? So they were like, you just need to focus on that.

[00:17:46] When George Zimmerman was acquitted, I just could not hold it in. And I said on social media my feelings. And those white people jumped in the comments very quickly. Sweetie, you need to trust our justice system. Verbatim was one of them. So at that moment, it brings up the skit that SNL did about Beyonce after formation, right? When the white people were running in the streets like, we thought she was one of us, right?

[00:18:15] And I think that was sort of what was happening to me in that space. Because I was quiet about certain things, there was this assumption that I must be a safe Black woman. And what is that in America? But anyways, I must be a safe Black woman. I must not be a radical. I must not want to be a revolutionary. I must not have a Jezebel spirit. So I think as that was happening and me realizing like, oh, we're all being quiet about something.

[00:18:43] I'm being quiet about how I feel, about how some things are happening politically. You're being quiet about what you actually think about Black folks, what you actually think about racism. We're all in the green room just smiling and calling each other a friend, but we're not each other's friends. So I think that part of the process sort of started this like clicking of all the things waking up right there.

[00:19:08] And then as time went on too, I also realized I wanted an inclusive faith. I want a faith that is not asking me to choose between my religion and my Blackness. I want a faith where queerness is welcome here, where queer folks and trans folks are not being told they're welcome, but then can't get married in the church if they want to, or can't get their babies dedicated in the church if they want to,

[00:19:34] or can't serve in the church if they want to unless they present as straight. So all of that started sort of doing the rumble and tumble and had me like, you're going to have to leave here. Was it freeing for you then in writing this book knowing it wasn't going to be for a Christian space, but for the audience who is often the majority in the Christian church space, but who's often not talked to, but talked at?

[00:20:03] I mean, my last book came out in 2017. Very different world. So it took me some years to even figure out what is my voice when I am not writing for that market. This shakeup was also happening when I was in my late 30s. And I felt this pressure of, I feel like there's more in me to put out here. I have more stories. I have more writing that I would like to do.

[00:20:32] I have more stage work I'd like to do. But now I'm starting over because I'm going from this very big fish, small pond experience to now being out in a mainstream world. And not that late 30s isn't old, neither is 40s, hello. But I felt that pressure of like, I'm not 26 starting a YouTube account, starting on Vine or, you know, on Zanga, whatever.

[00:21:00] You know, like I'm not a young, fresh girlie who's just starting. I will be coming into a mainstream environment where a lot of people have built their relationships. A lot of people have their connections they have. How will I even get in the room? I think that was a big worry that I had. And so in part, podcasting, I had my own podcast for five years. And podcasting actually really helped me to process a lot of this and helped me to find my voice again. I will also tell you, I can't tell you the person's name because NDA.

[00:21:31] But I also received an opportunity in the early parts of the shutdown of the pandemic to be a collaborator on the book of a well-known person. Whose name I literally can't say because they'd be wanting plasma from you if you need sand, they name I allow. And the book was shelved.

[00:21:49] So shout out to that person whose name I can't say because I think their voice like freed me to sort of find my own voice and get out of that box of whatever I thought my writing had to be. This feels a little like my reasonable doubt how like Jay-Z would talk about like, it's like all the stories from his years up until that moment. This book is like that, but it's like all the things I could not say in Christian publishing. I can just put them here. Titties, I can talk about titties. I can put balls in this book.

[00:22:19] Let's go, everyone. Yes. So how has the transition into traditional corporate publishing been where it is not on the surface backed by the blood of Jesus? No, exactly. And then the hard part about Christian market generally too is like it was also about the money. There was just a lot of an act that we were having to put on in an effort to act like we were not going to talk about the money.

[00:22:49] But it also, it also was about the bottom line. You just were needing to say some other flowery phrases and now we don't have to say those phrases. I will say my entry point being into tiny reparations books, I think has been a wonderful thing to be under an imprint that's helmed by a Black woman that's helmed by a Black woman who writes comedically as well. I really could not have picked a better house for this work to be in.

[00:23:18] And, of course, there is always an underground network of those of us Black writers who are like, now what you're doing at your publisher? What they say when you, you know, like we have to have those talks. And so I'm hearing that there are places where it is going badly for many of us. And that has not been my experience in this case. It's just been almost like a 180 turn from being in Christian publishing.

[00:23:41] So there are just all these different spaces in this regard where I felt very seen and very understood. And I will say I walk into publishing as an independent performing artist. I have been an indie artist for over 20 years. I never had a record deal. All the albums I put out, I put them out independently. And so I think I walk into working with a publisher with a plan in mind as if the publisher will do nothing.

[00:24:09] And because that's how you have to be as an indie artist. You don't have the record label there to know. So if you want to do a show, you've got to promote your show. If you want to put an album out, you've got to find the money to go into the studio and work on it. And so I am a published author under an imprint that's under a big five. And I will always be an indie artist. And I approach my work that way. And I think that has been helpful even in sort of like collaboration with Tiny Reparations of like, here's where we can help you navigate this thing.

[00:24:37] And my manager and I are also over here like, and here's where we're also going to build this thing. You know? So I think that mentality also really was a help coming into the industry. But coming as Tiny Reparations was also really great. What was the editorial process like? The feedback on the essays, putting the collection together, breaking it up the way that you did? My second book, my last book, How to Fix a Broken Record, was also broken into sections. Kind of similar to the setup of this book.

[00:25:03] And I really loved that sort of to have these buckets of topics that I knew I wanted to write about. So I sort of kind of went back to that as a format. I will tell you, I had never had an editorial call. So when my editor was like, yeah, so looks like it's time for us to schedule our editorial call before you start writing. And I was like, hey girl, what's that? She was like, but you put out two books you never had. I was like, no, I don't know what this is. What do you do there?

[00:25:33] What happens there? She was like, we're just going to talk through your book. And if you have questions. So I went in sort of assuming I was going to have more of a professorial experience with my editor. I thought I was going to go in and she was going to be like, hey, I actually don't think you should write about this, like this essay. Let's just cross this out. And we were hoping you were going to write about this part instead. And like, I thought it was going to be that. So I went to the editorial call. I'm just talking a mile a minute. And then I could write about this. And then my grandma's titties, but I could also write about my titties in here.

[00:26:02] And then I was wondering about, like, I'm telling her all these things. And then I just got quiet. And she was like, sounds great. She was like, let me know if you have any questions as you write. And I was like, that's it? You aren't going to correct me? She was like, correct. Like, it's your book. All the ideas. Yeah. She was like, all the ideas sound great. So please continue writing. She was like, if you have questions, I'm just here. So then I turned in the manuscript in two halves. She had asked me to send in the first half.

[00:26:31] And then while she was editing the first half, I was writing the second half. So by the time I get the edits back on that first half, I'm prepared to be pissed off. Like, I'm prepared. Like, I'm about to put my boxing gloves on. I'm about to take my earrings off. Like, okay, now it's time for us to fight. Because you're about to stay stuck in here and make me mad. So I open it up. She starts off with just this beautifully written editorial letter. Just telling me, here are the things I loved here. Here are the things I feel are strong.

[00:27:00] You know, here are some questions I have. But I think with an additional draft, you'd be like, it was just so beautiful that I was like, damn, you making it hard to be mad at you. What's going on here? I thought we was finna fight. Now we don't finna fight. Like, I'm, I don't got on my fighting clothes. We don't finna fight. Like, I don't know. So then I was like, let me go into the edits. Maybe then I'll be mad. And she was like, I'm just here trying to make a strong draft stronger. And I was like, please stop being so damn nice. I'm scrolling through.

[00:27:30] Like, let me see. And most of the edits were just things like, I would love to see a stronger ending here. Is there a way you can explore? It was just really helpful questions and things like that. It was not like a right or wrong, which is what I was expecting. So shout out to my editor. She is very thorough in her work. But it also comes across like gentle. Like there is some care to the words being said. And I really appreciated that. That really helped me. But yeah, I never got to fight her.

[00:28:00] Like the whole time we never got to fight. Was the title always never tell a Black girl how to Black girl? Always. Okay. And so before we get to the reading, please define Black girl. I mean, the truth is I can't define it. That it's different and unique to each of us. And that is a part of why I wanted to explore what it means for Black girl to be a verb. And there might be different ways I Black girl that another Black girl would be like, but I would never do that.

[00:28:29] Like I would never wear that lipstick you like because that's not how I like to Black girl. Like I know some Black girls who love a bright green lipstick. They rock it and it looks amazing on them. That's not a me thing, but that's also a way they Black girl, right? So I feel like I do not have the definitive definition for this term. But for me, my way, I Black girl, it does look very Southern. You know, it is about fried chicken sometimes.

[00:28:58] It is about bacon and bacon grease some of the time. Like that's a part of how I Black girl, when I make bacon, I'm going to pour the grease into a small mason jar. Because what if I'm cooking something else that could just use a little spoonful of bacon grease? That's just a part of how I like to live. But that's a part of how I Black girl. So I hope that it broadens what that could mean, you know? All right. This is the reading portion of the podcast.

[00:29:27] And I have a request. Oh, please. Because I read this essay and I hollered. I tagged you about it on thread. It's one of my favorite comments. Yes. A response to the question, when are you going to have kids? Please read that essay in full. Okay. Thank you so much. Amina Brown's essay collection, Never Tell a Black Girl How to Black Girl, first treats Black girl as a verb and tells stories of how Amina specifically does Black girl.

[00:29:57] From growing up church to leaving the church, how she met her husband, what it takes to make a relationship work, and what you should never ask a married couple. There are meditations on everything from hair to breast size and everything in between. Here's Amina. This was truly one of my favorite things to write in this book. This is also a story that I have been telling on stage.

[00:30:23] So the reverse engineering of how to get the beats right on paper was like a good kind of challenging in a way. But oh man, I had a lot of fun. But I also had to tell my mother that this book had the word dick in it. And I need her to not take it to her Bible study. So here is this essay, a response to the question, when are you going to have kids? My husband and I don't have kids.

[00:30:52] There is nothing super remarkable about this. We are just two people who love each other, living our lives without children. In a bar, in a restaurant, at a dinner party, this doesn't matter to most people. We find other things to talk about, like TV shows we love, how much we love our dogs, or memes that made us laugh. But if there's one place where being married a certain amount of time with no children will not stand, it's in church.

[00:31:19] If there's one place where people feel a special license to get in your business, it's in church. In church, small talk goes one of two ways, especially if you're a woman. Option one is questions about your relationship status. Are you married? Are you dating? Why are you still single? Option two is about your parenting possibilities. Do you have kids? Why don't you have kids? When are you going to have kids? When are you going to have more kids?

[00:31:50] Sometimes people ask us about having kids because I'm a Black woman and my husband's a white man with red hair, and they want to know how all this DNA is going to shake out. Sometimes they ask because they think a woman has no purpose if she doesn't have a spouse and kids. Sometimes they ask because they have kids and don't know what else to talk about if you don't have kids. Sometimes they ask because they are bad at small talk, and sometimes they ask because they are too damn nosy for their own good.

[00:32:19] But they ask anyway, as if it's their business, as if I owe them an explanation as to what my uterus is or isn't doing. Most times I nod my way out of it, deflect my way out of it, polite my way to the next topic of conversation, which means I endure a lot of disrespectful shit, like just adopt, just do fertility treatment. Geritol got me pregnant. Do it this way. Do it that way.

[00:32:48] Get drunk. Don't drink. Use essential oils and rub them counterclockwise, and all manner of unsolicited, terrible advice. But this particular day, I'd had it. After telling myself I wouldn't take any more church gigs, I took one for Easter. My husband traveled with me, and I was supposed to perform a poem to be captured on video for a church's Easter service. It had been a while since I'd worked in a church environment,

[00:33:16] so I had nearly forgotten how the small talk goes. We were greeted by a woman the church assigned to host us and make sure we had plenty of water, tea, and snacks as needed. She started the small talk with option one to confirm that we were indeed married, even asking how many years we'd been married. This is its own subtle kid check. If you're a newlywed, it's cute that you don't have kids. Three to five years married? Understandable, depending on your age.

[00:33:46] Seven plus years married? It is the job of every church person you meet to become an impromptu reproductive endocrinologist. You must have a problem, and they must have a solution. Maybe you're not doing it. Maybe you're not doing it right. Either way, it's now their self-appointed job to fix it, or it's your job to convince them you're doing everything you can to fix it. It only takes this woman a couple of minutes to reach option two.

[00:34:15] Do you have any kids? She said. Nope, we said. Are you trying? She said. Yes. Mm-hmm. You read that right. A grown woman, whom we just met, asked us if we were trying to have kids. A grown woman, whom we just met, was attempting to inquire about our sex life or our medical history or our personal health and family decisions.

[00:34:44] I wished I would have cussed her clean out. She deserved to get cussed clean out, but I couldn't cuss her out. Not because I didn't want to. Not because I was being too nice, but because I can never think of the right cuss words in the moment. I am a woman who broods and stews, a slow thinker. I have never improvised well, but give me 48 hours to 17 months, and I will have every cuss word ready for a moment

[00:35:13] that is already well in the past. Someone interrupted us. I never got the chance to answer her back. I wished I had a prepared response for times like this, something I could say that could quickly shut these conversations down. On the way home, it hit me. I thought of the perfect thing to say. I rehearsed it in my head as if I could redo the entire conversation. Do you have any kids? She'd say. Nope, I'd say. Are you trying?

[00:35:43] She'd say. Are you in a relationship? I'd say. Yes, my husband and I have been married for several years, she'd say. And I'd say, do you suck dick? She'd gasp, clutch her pearls, look at me as if I have said the most offensive thing. I'd say, oh, is that too personal? Too private? Is that none of my business? Is that something you wanted to remain

[00:36:12] between you and your spouse? Then I'd get quiet. Hope it starts to sink in. Maybe she'll think about how it feels to have someone ask you a very personal question in a very public moment. Maybe she'll consider the layers of personal reasons that are a factor into why people do or don't have kids. Maybe in the future, she'll decide favorite TV shows, recent good books, or best and worst movies are the types of questions that make for better small talk.

[00:36:42] Maybe she won't think any of this. Maybe she'll be too busy scoffing at why people who seem happily married can't get it together and just have some kids already. She would probably clutch her pearls that I had the audacity to say the word dick and then to say suck in front of it. Her silence would tell me maybe she wasn't sucking dick, which would leave me the room to ask her the most important question of all. Are you trying? Oh, that blessed me.

[00:37:14] That blessed me so much. Oh my gosh. I think I read that essay and then I ran to the computer and emailed the publicist and I was like, Lauren, schedule it now. Indeed. Indeed. Right now. Indeed. I have to talk. This essay also was one of the original essays in the proposal. I can tell. Because that's definitely something that's like, I'm just talking shit. They not going to want this book.

[00:37:43] They going to let me write my poems in peace and whatever. Tiny Reparations said, sucks dick. Let's go. Hey, let's get this going here. Let's get a book of essays. And this is what I like to tell people, that people think I am so serious. I am deeply unserious. Listen, your comment to me when you got to this essay in the book, when I opened up threads

[00:38:13] and you said, Amina B, step to the front. You were like the scream that I have scrumpt. I hollered in this house that it echoed in the living room. I was done. Like, I finished the book and everything, but I was like, this is the one. But it is hilarious. But like people really get in your business. Yeah. About,

[00:38:43] and not just about your reproductive health, but like you have essays before this about, you know, marriage and dating and being in Christian spaces where it's like, you get the preaching to keep your legs closed, to keep your knees knocked, the purity rings and the chastity bells and all the different performative things that people do to make sure that you don't kiss your husband until you're at the altar. But then turn around at the reception talking about someone gonna give us some grandkids. Hold on. Hold on. Like, back it up.

[00:39:12] We've missed some steps. That lady pissed me off so bad that I was in the airport like, no, I have to fix this. Like, I just couldn't get it together. And then I was like, when I was like, oh, but if you ask somebody if they suck dick, it's like the same, like they don't want to answer that. And especially in a church environment, the people want to act like they are somehow just cuddling very sweetly in their homes. Like they are just missionary position until the cows come home.

[00:39:42] So either, either you are sucking dick and you didn't want to talk about it here or you not sucking dick. And if you're not sucking dick, hey, hey, listen, focus on that. Focus on learning that. Focus on your business. Get out of mine. Has your mother read this book? My mother has read this book. Is she proud of you? My mom is, right, right, right, right, right. Like still, not us or us. Yeah, yeah. Is she currently proud is the question.

[00:40:13] I actually gave my mom an advanced reader copy because I knew I wasn't going to change nothing based on her feedback to me. But I was like, you need time to maybe read this and process this before like it's out, out, out. And that way you have some weeks. So it was very funny because she would read it at night, like at the end of her day. And then she would text me her commentary. So most of it was her being like,

[00:40:43] I didn't even remember such and such. Oh, that was so funny when you this, that, the third, you know. But I feel like we did have a talk because I was doing, I was practicing for the show while I was also writing. And she came to one of the shows and we had a talk and I said, hey, it's going to be cussing at this. I'm going to say dick sometimes. And she was like, why are you telling me that? She's like, are you telling me that because you don't want me to come to it? And I was like, oh, I want you to come if you want to come there.

[00:41:12] But I just want us to talk about this in case we've reached the threshold of parent and child where you are like, hey, that's a life you're going to live. And I'm not going to be in it. I'm not one of your little friends. Okay. And my mom also had a period of her life that she was outside. So one thing about my mom is she not going to cuss. But sometimes I think, you know, she knows she have two daughters who do.

[00:41:41] So she let us cuss in her stead. So she has been really proud coming to all the events. And we made it through that in our mother-daughter relationship. Because I was like, lady, I don't know. My last books, the church could read, I mean, the church could read this too, but it doesn't have scriptures in the bag. It doesn't have Bible study questions. Yeah. No, I ask though, because like, as you said, you know, you started this with like talking about titties and you have a whole essay about the lineage of titties in your family.

[00:42:12] Yeah. And the kind of respect and size garners. So I was like, you can't be talking about your mom and titties and your mama didn't read them. Yeah, she did. I mean, you could, but like, why would you do that? Right, right, right. One of my friends definitely came to one of the shows and she was like, hey, real quick, what's the class you go to to cuss in front of your Black mother? Because did you go to that class? Because you were cussing in front of your Black mother. And one thing about my mom, my mom has two daughters, myself and my sister. My sister is a visual artist.

[00:42:42] And my mom has been serious about us doing our work since we were children. Before I graduated high school, I already had two or three collections of poetry copywritten because she was like, I want to walk you into the library. This was back when they didn't have websites for this and you had to open up a binder and pull the form out and photocopy the form to copyright your poetry. So I think my mom has this inherent strong belief in like, you have writing

[00:43:12] inside of you, you have art inside of you. I want you to do that even if it make my jaw tight a little bit. Even if maybe I don't want my church friends to be all up in this. Like, she's like, I'm still proud of you because I wanted you to be a writer because it's what you wanted to be. So shout out to my mom, man. She definitely let me, her and my grandma, both my grandma been listening to the audiobook, y'all. She done discovered Bluetooth headphones, honey. Just been in the house listening to this thing. So. I love it.

[00:43:41] Say more about your show that you are producing, performing. What's going on? Where is it going? How can we come see it? In the fall, we are beginning the round of the Never Tell a Black Girl show, which is comedy and poetry and storytelling all like mashed into one thing. So there'll be part of it where I read directly from the book. There'll be part of it where audiences will get to sort of see some of these stories come off the page and like off book in a way.

[00:44:11] Most of the poems in here are performance pieces as well. So some of them are older pieces that people who have been following my work would remember. Some of them are newer works that I'm excited to sort of take out there. So we're going to start with a southeast tour and then we are doing a bit of a northeast tour as well. So all of that will be on Aminabrown.com but I'm so excited. I didn't sit in a room by myself for a year and a half to not go outside. And I know among the writers

[00:44:41] of us, we all have different ways we approach that because I have some writer friends who are like, okay, well, I wrote the book, y'all got it and I'm going to go back inside and I'm going to write my second book. I don't want to be outside touring with y'all. Love y'all, but like read it and y'all engage with it. I wrote this so I could be outside. I want to see you. I want to high five you. I want to do a show. I want you to ask me questions at the book tour. That was hard on me. A year and a half in the doors and as a stage person,

[00:45:11] you know, as a poet, I know you get this. Like as a poet, it's like I could write a poem tonight and Thursday, take it to an open mic and know right away if it's working. Know what I need to change. Know those things. When you are writing a book length work, there is not a stage where you can be like, herein, I would like to take my nine hour work and I would like to gain feedback on if it is working. There is no place. You can't even take it to your writing circle.

[00:45:40] You have to take the excerpt, a chapter, a few pages, not a full magazine script. You can't take the whole work. Now, I did do Zoom readings because I just, as a stage person, it's like I need the audience feedback as part of my creative process. But like you said, I split the Zoom readings up by the hour. So I would be like, hey, y'all, this week, I'm reading Monday through Thursday. I would tell them the hours and I'd be like, here's the Zoom link. And then they would just like

[00:46:09] pop in when they could. But nobody heard all nine hours of it except me and my editor. That's it. That's it. Loved it. So Amina's going to be outside with the book. She wants y'all to have feedback. What do you want us, the audience, the Black girls, to take from Never Tell a Black Girl How to Black Girl? Mmm. I hope that my Black women readers really get some joy out of this. I hope that

[00:46:38] that little muscle that's under the cheekbones be sore a little bit in a good way because it made you laugh. It made you smile. I wrote this book literally while the world was burning and questioned the hell out of myself. Why are you writing about balls while the world is burning? I'm like, ma'am, you just sitting here writing about titties while the world is burning, girl. And my Black woman writer friend said,

[00:47:09] and don't you stop. Don't you stop writing that. They were like, you stay in there and do it because there's no way to know where the world would be, where America would be at the time the book was released. And I hope Black women are reminded of their joy. We need our joy to make it through all of this that we're having to make it through right now. We need to remember that sound of the click-clack of those beads when we turned our heads as little girls. Like, we need that, you know? Amen, Asha. So I want to go

[00:47:38] to a speed round and a game before I let you go for the afternoon. What is your favorite book? Ntozake Shange's For Colored Girls, So I've Considered Suicide When the Rainbow Is Enough. Who is your favorite author? It's gotta be between Alice Walker and Toni Morrison. Who is your favorite poet? This is a little bit of a side answer, but I would say for me, honestly, it's Black Thought and Rhapsody. I'll allow it. Name a poet you think people don't know enough about. I mean, I could probably have several names

[00:48:08] because I know so many dope poets that people don't know enough about. And I feel that way, especially about spoken word poets. I feel like sometimes we're still getting the short end of that stick. But I can't think of one name right now, but I feel like in every major city in America, there is an open mic going on where there are poets there that you should know more about. What is the difference if you think there is a difference between poetry, spoken word, and rap? I think that spoken word and rap are poetry.

[00:48:38] And I will caveat particularly the era of hip-hop I grew up with. The 90s for me, that was an era where our rappers, our MCs, were also poets. So I think if you were to take some of those verses and print them out, you could study that the same way we were studying Shakespeare, et cetera. So yes, I think rap and spoken word are poetry. But I don't think all rap is poetry. What is the best performance you have ever seen? I mean, I feel

[00:49:08] that I have to bring Beyonce here because I have seen the girl in an arena multiple times. And I have paid good money to see the girl in an arena multiple times. And I never left like, I think that should have been $50 cheaper. I think I wish I would have paid less money. Like, I always left like, yeah, and I would pay it again. Like, the girl is giving me visuals. It's giving me music and story and mood. She bringing back some obscure songs.

[00:49:38] So I have to say, of the artists I have seen, Beyonce is probably on top for me. If money were no object, where would you go? What would you do? And where would you live? If money were no object, being a published author would be so much easier. No lies detected. It would be so much easier. Wow. If I were filthy rich, you know, ethically, is it possible to be filthy rich ethically? If I were cleanly rich, if I were organically, if I were certified organic rich,

[00:50:07] I would still be a writer. I would still be writing. I think I would still be performing. I think I would travel more because I love to travel. I would be traveling a lot more. I still think Atlanta would be home. The collard greens and the sweet tea here are really unmatched. And what if I go to Paris and they're like, collard green? Like, I can't have that. So, I think I would travel more. I probably have homes in some other places where I would live.

[00:50:37] But I'd still come back to Atlanta. I think that'd still be home. Name three things on your bucket list. Oh, one of them would have been perform comedy, but I guess I did that. My other bucket list is I have never been to West Africa. So, that's on my list that I would like to visit multiple countries in West Africa if possible. There's some artists still that I don't think I've ever seen live. There are some music festivals I haven't been to that are on my bucket list. I've never been to the Roots picnic. I want to go to there.

[00:51:07] I've never been to the Blue Note Festival that's happening in Napa. I want to go to there and see what that's about. And my other bucket list, which I guess is probably part of my second one, is there are certain travels like I would want to go to with my mom. Like, if I go to Ghana, I want to go there with my mother. I want my mother, my sister, to have that trip. So, there would be some things like that on my bucket list. What brings you joy? Oh, cooking brings me joy. Eating really good food also brings me joy.

[00:51:36] That's really important to me. And to me, that's not necessarily a linens on the tables food. I don't care. I don't care where it's at. I don't care if it's in a food truck. I don't care if it's on the side of a gas station. If it's delicious, that brings me joy. Being with people who know me well and love me well, like the way I feel when I leave them, that brings me a lot of joy. And what brings you peace? Thinking about my ancestors, communing with them,

[00:52:05] that brings me a lot of peace. Watching Real Housewives also, it just, I don't know what it is about them girls yelling at each other. It really regulates my nervous system. I'm not going to hold you. Like the girls be yelling and I just be sleep. And because we talked about Love Jones earlier, you'll recognize this question. Who as an author makes you want to burn your notebook? Yo, I'm not going to hold you. Big sis Tiari Jones. Big sis Tiari Jones out here.

[00:52:35] Like, I read her latest book, Ken. And I told her this because we did a book event together. I told her reading that book was like if I were a painter and I were to go to a museum and see this wall-to-wall huge canvas and I'm staring at it and looking at my own wrist like my wrist can't paint that. That's how that word made me feel. I was reading it like, I can't write like this yet. Let me get in here.

[00:53:05] Let me get in here and do these push-ups. What am I doing? Our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. What's the one book you wished you would have written? Sheesh. The first thing that comes to my mind is The Color Purple because damn, I mean the way the epistle, you know like the letter writing, the letter writing to God, to each other. Yeah. The Color Purple. Name one book where you want to change the ending

[00:53:34] and how would you do it? I want to say Disappearing Acts by Terry McMillan. Like I'm not, I'm actually not sure to my memory is it the ending I want to change or is it some shit that happened in the middle that affected the ending that I'm like, hey, something is strange in here. I don't, somebody needs, yeah, Disappearing Acts. Wow. Take it back. All right. And name a book that you think is overrated or overtaunt and why. And you can do Dead People.

[00:54:04] I mean there's a long list of white men right here. Exactly. It's a long list of white men right here. And it's not a shame like these men can't have good writing but like all the Shakespeare, all the Robert Frost, all the William Faulkner but then like we weren't digging deep into Toni Morrison's catalog. We weren't reading Edwidge Danticat. Like what? Huh? Like, so just generally

[00:54:34] less white men, less. Acceptable. final question. When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write or perform about the words and work that you've left behind? And it could be your own. Wow. I honestly hope that I am writing things that still stand after all that time. That's, I mean, the same way we sort of had that rediscovery due to Alice Walker of Zora Neale Hurston and it's like

[00:55:03] so much of that work like stands. I would either A, love to still have some poems that people generations after I'm Gone are like, oh, I'm still interested. Let me find out about this. And or like what's happening with Whoopi Goldberg's monologues right now on the off-Broadway stage because that Broadway show that Whoopi Goldberg did was so important for me. Iconic. Yes. So watching, because I always, I always thought to myself she's never going to come back and perform this.

[00:55:33] But then it was almost even better that there were other Black women actors to come in and do the work. And if that happened to me while I was on the other side, while I was on the ancestral plane, I would, yes, I would leave some dimes. Whatever the ancestors be doing when they're trying to communicate with us, I would leave some dimes. I would put the birds on their trees and be like, hey, Amina said you did care. Big thank you to Amina Brown for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Amina on Instagram and threads

[00:56:02] at Amina B and that's spelled A-M-E-N-A-B-E-E. And make sure you check out Never Tell a Black Girl How to Black Girl. It's out now from Tiny Reparations Books. You can get a copy of the essay collection from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BlackPub at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week.

[00:56:31] If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram or YouTube page. It's at Black & Published and that's B-L-K-A-N-D-Published. There, you can watch a bonus clip from my interview with Amina about whether she regrets not having a whole face. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. Alright y'all, that's it for season 6

[00:57:00] of the podcast. But, I'll holla at y'all next week for the season 7 premiere when our guest will be none other than the big sis, the homie, Deesha Filial, author of the highly anticipated debut novel The True Confessions of First Lady Freeman. These women are exploited and abused and disrespected and disregarded and then it's being valorized for them being long-suffering or patient

[00:57:30] or whatever or forgiving and all of these things and it's just dressed up. It's just patriarchy dressed up in church clothes. It's misogyny and anti-blackness dressed up in church clothes. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on family? This is Derek Young

[00:57:59] and Ramonda Young owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode and if you enjoyed what you just heard drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for black books and we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again fam and always remember Black Books Matter. increments. We'll see you then. I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you.