Free Yourself First with W.J. Lofton

[00:00:00] The purpose of my writing is to free myself and hopefully free other people in that process. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is W.J. Lofton, author of the poetry collection Boy Maybe.

[00:00:26] The collection explores William's difficult and at times traumatic childhood, how he survived, and how he's living now as a young Black queer man in America. I had to write the book that would save my life. I had to write these poems that saved my life. And this is not hyperbole. This is I had to contend with all the shame, all the lies that I had been spoon-fed.

[00:00:51] I had to spit up all the fear that I had been told about myself in order for me to walk around on this planet, on this earth, with my head held high. William served eight years in the military, including time in Afghanistan. The reason he says, even though he crosses many identity intersections, it's not his life that is fractured.

[00:01:13] Plus, how writing Boy Maybe was a gentle escape, despite the subject matter, when he was supposed to be writing an entirely different book. And how he feels about being on the front lines facing attacks from the current administration. That and more is next, when Black & Published continues.

[00:01:50] All right, so William, let's jump in. When did you know that you were a writer? I knew that I cared about writing when I was in third grade. And we had this writing contest. So I write this book. And my friend, he won the contest. And I remember thinking, my book was better. And not to be that type of way, but I just remember having a visceral emotion around it. I knew that I wanted to describe things with words earlier than that.

[00:02:20] But me actually caring about the actual quality of writing was in third grade when I lost that contest. And knowing that your book was better, but that you lost, what did you do to make sure that perhaps you would never lose again? I don't think I can lose. I think, you know, when I was in third grade, you think about things in binaries.

[00:02:48] Win or lose. But writing, it's not about that. That's what I've discovered. I've discovered the purpose of my writing is to free myself and hopefully free other people in that process. And so what I do now is read the work of folks who direct us toward liberation and freedom. And I try to incorporate those themes and motifs into my work.

[00:03:13] So then when did you discover or how did you discover that your writing was supposed to be liberatory? So in a past life, in a former life, I was in the military and I was in Afghanistan. And this chief warrant officer gave me Carter G. Woodson's The Miseducation of the Negro. And it was one of the first times that I understood the world and my position in it and what had happened to me and how my world had been formed.

[00:03:43] And it was from that point that I was like, OK, if I'm going to write something, I must make sense of a world and the world that I am exerting in. How many years did you serve? I served eight years. First, thank you for your service.

[00:03:59] However, we are in a moment where I feel like we cannot ignore what is happening in politics because it impacts not only just our worldview, but like the Constitution is being trampled upon. And like one of those rights is the right to freedom of speech and expression. Right. And that's being tested.

[00:04:25] And on a platform where I began my work as a journalist, we're talking about books, but then we're also talking about Black books and the experience of writers of color in publishing and getting their work out. You cross so many different intersections and it's all on the page, your military experience, your queer identity and so much more.

[00:04:52] How is it for you doing the work that you do for your own liberation at a time where your contributions to society and you, not just being you specifically, William, but you in general with all of the identities that you cross and possess are being challenged and erased?

[00:05:19] So I think it's important to look back on history and remember that when my book came out on March 25th, that will also mark the 60th anniversary of when Dr. King marched from Selma to Montgomery, protesting the denial of the right to vote.

[00:05:40] And it brings me here, thinking through, it is always our work to challenge our erasure. It is always the work of writers to point toward the forces that say you don't belong, you are not human, that seek to divide us.

[00:06:04] And we also see all of the policies that this administration, they're implementing to sanction artists, art institutions. Because when we see the rise of fascism, we always see that writers and artists are always censored. They come for us first. Because we are the folks that allow people to think differently about the world.

[00:06:30] We are the folks who encourage people to reach for better. I can write in a poem something about fresh water and people start to think, oh, I deserve to drink fresh water. Or I deserve to breathe fresh air. Or there should not be bombs going off in Gaza. Like, I can write things like that.

[00:06:52] Or a painter can paint something and ignite our imagination in such a way that we believe that we can live in a different world. And you've been doing that. This is your third book now. So your previous two titles and you continue that work. And boy, maybe. When you approach the page, is it with a specific idea to write about something that is on your mind? Or is it more organic than that?

[00:07:21] Toni Morrison said that she had to write the book that she wanted to read. I had to write the book that would save my life. I had to write these poems to save my life. And this is not hyperbole. This is I had to contend with all the shame, all the lies that I had been spoon-fed. I had to spit up all the filth that I had been told about myself.

[00:07:45] In order for me to walk around on this planet, on this earth, with my head held high, I had to confront and contend with myself on the page. And so I'm glad that the poems turned out to be beautiful and inspirational. And also, I was the primary audience. You talk about spitting up all the filth and you quote Baldwin as saying that it's a vomit of all the filth in one of the poems in Boy Maybe.

[00:08:10] In writing to save yourself then, what was it like to then give yourself over to publishing and Beacon Press to handle your work, but also your heart for publication and for the public? Now that the book is out, I am experiencing what it means to interact with the work with an audience. And I've done it before in my other books, but this is a wider distribution.

[00:08:38] I'm on a book tour for the first time. And it is very vulnerable. And also, I'm glad that I did the work prior to the book being out because it might have been jarring. And going with Beacon Press, I cannot explain how much it means to me because they also house James Baldwin's works. They house Sonia Sanchez's work. They house Imani Perry's memoir. And I'm also writing a memoir with Beacon Press.

[00:09:07] So Beacon Press, in a time where political voices, political writers are being sanctioned, it's very important for me to be with them because I can say the things that need to be said. What has your publication process with Beacon been like, perhaps in comparison to your other titles? So with Beacon, I had a team. The other two books that I published were self-published. And so this is the first book that I had a team working with me.

[00:09:36] I had an editor who respects my voice. And I'm deeply grateful. Her name's Catherine Tongue. And it was just wonderful being able to sing over poems and the team be excited about it. Because some of these poems are provocative. And some of these poems touch on subjects that some publications may shy away from.

[00:10:00] But Beacon embraced these poems, which also made me feel embraced in return. So I didn't know that your previous two titles, A Garden for Black Boys Between the Stages of Soil and Stardust, and These Flowers Were Held by Broken Vases, were self-published. I have a similar experience from going from self-publishing to traditional.

[00:10:23] What made you decide to take the leap to stop doing everything yourself, being your whole editor and marketer and book cover designer and all the things to think, you know what, I need a team now? I see what it does for the work. You know, there's wider distribution. It's so much work and gratification and self-publishing. But when you have a team, it makes things so much easier.

[00:10:51] You have time to actually write. You have time to, you know, think through the creative process. And not so much all the administrative work. It's so much administrative work on the back end and the front end. And I am so deeply grateful that I did have that in my toolkit, but it was not as necessary this time. And I am grateful because I probably got more sleep.

[00:11:20] I got more sleep. Wasn't just about formats and line breaks. You know, all of the stuff. Yes. So then can you read something? Can you read three poems from Boy Maybe and we can dive deeper into the subject matter? Yes. Boy Maybe by W.J. Lofton is a poetry collection that is as brutal as it is tender. From the shattering of his world due to his parents' untimely death,

[00:11:47] to surviving the child welfare system, going to war and losing friends, to accepting all of himself, William has crafted the lyrics of his existence that are still being written. Here's William. So I'll read Dreamhouse. Dreamhouse. Me, an ocean of arteries, blood vessels, wind wrapped in wool.

[00:12:16] Cartoons watch me, a boy, maybe, borrowed Barbies in my blooming. Buffy, aficionado, broke boundaries with t-shirt wig. Beyond heaven's imagination. Dreamhouse. Dreamhouse. Dreamhouse. Dog walker. Dying to touch my mother's cheek. Promise to remember this go-round. She was wooden box holding water. Unquenchable.

[00:12:46] Loyal needle wielder in the 80s. Weigher of eight children. All too heavy. One given by her father. Burden on top of bruise. Black like me. I am sore. Spoon full of funeral song. Brief gong loud. Parents remember what they sang. Just my father's face. Eternally painted steel. I look just like my daddy.

[00:13:16] Otherworldly. Dressed in my best going out clothes. Hill clicker. Concert goer. Comet gazer. Remains of my mother. A meteor around my siblings' necks. I am ready now. Heath brushed. Showered. Hair ponytailed. Dog walked. Dying. Dreamhouse. Driving to a new city. Where my blood ain't used for diary ink.

[00:13:46] Dirge. Curbside dinner for police. Disinfectant for another man's living. Me. From the beginning. Ocean. Blood. Wind. Boy, maybe. Here's a lighter one. It's called WDD. It's on page 41. And it's just my idea of what it feels like to be at a barbecue. I'm thinking about the sunniest day with the right amount of breeze. Me being surrounded by family.

[00:14:17] W. Double D. We need a Wang Dang Doodle. A lawn chair holding. High waist cousins racing sacks across the yard. Just a few feet away. A pound cake offers itself in glazed slices. There's lemonade. Be sweet as niceness. Have some. Bake it for later. In some foil.

[00:14:46] Fix a plate. Hug your young necks around one another. As swans do in summer. Remember home. In its sunlight. With its warm prayer. Waiting. Just waiting. For the weight of you. Can I make a request? Yes. Of course. Can you do ain't never? Yes. Yes. Yes. Ain't never. Ain't never left brick steps.

[00:15:17] Child town. Summer's dripped sweat. Ain't never pushed down forehead knots. Ain't never pointed the finger at God. Ain't never noticed the knot not disappearing into my skull. Ain't never abuse. Ain't nothing never wrong with sparing the rod. Child ain't never gon' remember. Child ain't never gon' do nothing about being a child. Ain't never about words having meaning.

[00:15:45] Ain't never needing nothing from no goddamn body. Ain't never begged a nigga to pick me. Ain't never prayed for God's hand to move mountains. Thank you. Thank you. You're very welcome. So this book, I'm trying to trade light because it is heavy. But you put it on page. So here we are. Here we are.

[00:16:10] You talk about losing your parents at a young age, going into the foster care adoption system, your time in the military, seeing the loss of life from Kendrick Johnson in Lowndes County in Georgia, to Ahmaud Arbery in Brunswick, to Breonna Taylor in Louisville, and the impact of America as an empire on its people,

[00:16:40] but especially on you as a Black queer man who has served this country. Do you feel that at times you've lived a fractured identity, and writing Boy Maybe was a way for you to put yourself back together again? I feel as though I have lived a full identity with a full self, but I had to understand that it was a system that was fractured.

[00:17:08] And by writing this book, it allowed me to see that I was whole from the beginning, and that it was a system who makes it so impossible, not just for Black queer men, but for Black children, children, women, and gender nonconforming folks to exist in this world. And I wanted to point my finger at the systems and say, you know, this is not okay, and I see you for what you are.

[00:17:38] And I thank God for Black genius and Black brilliance and for the audacity to keep one foot in front of the other. You say in the preface,

[00:18:07] And you also talk about in the preface the importance of touch and how it's necessary and how it's not only the vehicle of radicalization, but also the way that we can understand ourselves and understand each other, because we all need that connection. Why were love and touch the central themes that you wanted to focus on in this collection,

[00:18:34] despite all the other topics that you discussed? Because I realized that it was through touch that I had experienced the world. And not just literally, but metaphorically, how systems had touched me and also how men had touched me and how people had touched me without permission. And I had to reckon with that.

[00:19:00] And to say, actually, I can experience touch in a different way, in a more loving way, in a way that is used to unlock change. I want to think about touch in a way where Audrey Lorde talks about the power of the erotic and thinking through pleasure as a vehicle of self-possession and autonomy. And it led me here.

[00:19:28] I was looking through the poems and I realized that I got really personal about a lot of things. But I had no shame because in those moments, I was coming back to myself and I was reclaiming a power that had been taken away from me. And having no shame, have you also found forgiveness for those who harmed you? Yes.

[00:19:50] And, you know, I try my best to write about some of the ways I have been touched in a merciful way, in a way that affords humanity or even the abuser. Because I do believe, as an abolitionist, I do believe that people have the right to change. And if they have the courage to change, they can do it. And who am I to make someone stay in a prison? I don't believe in that. Do you think that,

[00:20:20] if you had not lost your parents at the age that you did and in the way that you did, that you would have come to this moment at all? Oh, you know, I've listened to some people say that, you know, they're waiting on some people to die to write the poems that they need to write to get free. And I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that I have met the moment. And I'm always interested in me in the moment.

[00:20:50] I'm interested in my life in such a way that I would like to believe that I would do anything that it takes to meet William in each lifetime. Who was William in this lifetime? Oh, I want to be a light. I am a light. I'm a friend. I'm a brother. I'm a lover. I'm a student. I'm a poet. I'm a community member. I'm a good neighbor. Yeah, that's who William is.

[00:21:19] And so then going out on tour with this collection, your first tour, first big publishing experience with Beacon, what has been the response or the reception to your work as you show up? It's been wonderful. I have, you know, what makes me especially happy is the intergenerational response. You know, there are younger people who have said this makes it easier to walk,

[00:21:49] with pride. And then there are some older people when I was in Montgomery, you know, older people come with traditions and expectations, but I have not met backlash. The reception has been so warm and loving that it actually shocks me sometimes. And it's also an invitation for me to always think the best about my people. Were you expecting backlash? I was.

[00:22:19] You know, I write about in the book, some of the homophobia that I experienced in the church. And, you know, I'm not saying that it won't happen because I do live in reality. And once again, we do live in a country where we are seeing laws and legislation being passed that threaten the lives and the material conditions of queer people and black people and poor people. And I'm okay with that. You know,

[00:22:44] I'm okay with speaking against that because I don't think my life has to be so small as to where I have to take anything from someone else's life. I'm going back to the preface because you said there, I was subdued by the idea that grief without any hope of recovery was at minimum marketable material.

[00:23:04] And yet you have found that grief without the love and the touch and the forgiveness and the liberation might be marketable, but it's not honest. How did that make you feel to come to that realization on the page? Well, it was, I had to be honest, right? I had to be honest that there is a market for black grief and that it serves this

[00:23:31] caricature that we have nothing outside of grief. We have nothing outside of pain. And the writers that I adore don't write that way. They don't have that ethic. And I don't have that ethic. I actually have so much joy in my life. And for me to have landed on that, for me to have that my life is this one dimension, it would have been cheap. It also would have been disrespectful for all the people who bring me so much joy.

[00:24:00] And also it would have been disrespectful to myself. But we all have a choice in this market. And I understand that this market does not always make it easy to be ethical. But I think that is the choice we must make. One of the reasons why I asked you to read Ain't Never was because it was a little angry, but it was defiant. And at this point in time, joy is defiant.

[00:24:28] And I think you finished the collection on that note with the poem, And Oceans. Could you read that, please? Yes. And Oceans. Oceans open up and you pull each family member made meal onto the shore of a freed world. And the heart remains God's student. We kneel here, kneel with us in our suffering. Gris, gris,

[00:24:58] gold ring revolution, tattooed neck side. It's the thug in me, folded in fag skin, crooked tooth juju. And all I will ever hear is my name said whole. Hole in the trickster's jar. Hole in the demon's skin. Hole in the shoulder meant for the heart. Touch and... In this last piece, it seems like it's a letter to yourself. Am I reading that correctly?

[00:25:28] It is. It is. I ended with the ampersand, for one, to allow for a continuation of life. The story is still being written. There are more poems. There's more joy. And there's more resistance that needs to take place. But it is a self-reclamation. It is me believing that we are creating a world where our ancestors could have walked freely. And that is inspiring to me

[00:25:56] because I come from people who taught themselves to write and read. And if that is possible, I know that anything is possible. And I owe myself a full life where I have joy and also where I'm interested in resisting oppressive systems. And it does not always have to be devastating. You say you ended with the ampersand because there's more to come. And you mentioned earlier

[00:26:26] that you are working on a memoir. Can you tell us a little bit about what's entailed in that memoir and when is it coming? Yes. So Sioux City is a memoir detailing me and my sister's journey through the foster care system. It maps our journey from Chicago to Alabama to Georgia and thinking through how this country is built on family separation for the sake of labor.

[00:26:56] It started in slavery and still thinking through how Black children are unprotected and what that costs us as a society. And I touch on a lot of things in the poetry book, Boy Maybe, and I saw what the sore points were. I saw what I needed to write into. And originally Sioux City was supposed to come out before Boy Maybe, but I didn't have it. It wasn't there.

[00:27:25] The material wasn't clear. And by Writing Boy Maybe, I understand exactly what I have to write into. So I'm excited. When it comes out, I'm supposed to be turning the manuscript at the end of this year. And so pray for me. But I'm excited. I'm excited for it. You talk about Writing Boy Maybe allowed you to understand what Sioux City needed to be. And so I'm assuming that

[00:27:55] being able to gently touch your trauma in the abstract will allow you to protect yourself better when you have to revisit those memories and prose. Yes, I completely agree. And also because I am, I will say Boy Maybe is a bit devastating. And it needed to be that way because that pain existed. I had to write about the pain

[00:28:25] because it is real. And I had to write about it because I had to write something else. And so I have to tear myself apart to write Sioux City so much. I can use a different lens while approaching the work. Yes, the devastation is still there because these things happened. My parents are not coming back. And however, I have a sense of joy in my life that I can pull from and allow that to be

[00:28:53] the cornerstone to the work. I always point towards the sunlight, point towards the girls jumping double dutch and then we can get into the mess. Yes. All right. So I want to move to a speed round and a game before I let you go for the morning. What is your favorite book? Last year, I was reading Roger Reeves' Dark Days. And I would go walking

[00:29:22] on this trail by my house and it just felt like Roger was speaking to me. And I heard Roger Reeves read some poems last year at this conference. And when I walked up to him, I said, oh, I didn't know this, but I came here for you. And I asked him, what was that in the poems? And he said, you have to make the poem inevitable. You have to write as if the poem needs to exist.

[00:29:51] That would change the very fabric of this world. And it blew my mind. I said, yes. I said, yes. Exactly that. Yes. Who is your favorite author? I have a few. Can I list five? Mm-hmm. Okay. Love, love, love Jericho Brown's work. Love Toni Morrison. James Baldwin. Imani Perry be writing her face off. It does.

[00:30:20] And Kiese Lehmann. Oh my God. And it's so many. It's so many. It's actually so many that I want to mention Hanif, Jason Reynolds, like all of these great people. But yeah, those are at my top. And they saved my life. Who is your favorite poet? Oh, that's hard. That is a hard one. Oh, my favorite poet. This is going to be a little dodgy. But my favorite poet is the earth. Like,

[00:30:50] there's so much poetics when you look out the window and you see how the insects are interacting with the tree. That is a poetic. When you see the spider web outside this window right now and the life that is clinging to it. That is, I'm astounded every time I look out the window or encounter the sunlight that hits my face. It's the most beautiful thing. It's jazz. All these things happen at one time

[00:31:19] and it creates its harmony. It's wonderful. Okay. To get you to be a little bit more specific, name, name a poet you think people don't know enough about. I think people know about this poet but they can read more of him. Jericho Brown, I love Danez Smith, Yusef Kamayaka, Gwendolyn Brooks, Lucille Clifton. Lucille Clifton for one is just a masterclass in herself of poetry, poetics,

[00:31:49] blessing the boats, her collected poems. I would just say let's go with Lucille Clifton. Yes. All right. And then a little messy question. It's one of many so like just hold on. What do you think is the difference if you think there is a difference between poetry and spoken word? I must say that the oldest form of poetics is the oral tradition. So it's in the same vein

[00:32:18] and then if we are thinking about the written word we get to explore with line breaks and the space on the page and just different things happen on the page and different things happen orally. If money were no object where would you go what would you do and where would you live? I would live in Atlanta in this house that I'm in I would probably add another bathroom to the house and build me a porch but yeah I would live here you know

[00:32:48] it's such a blessing to be around Black Black and queer people and most of my time here it feels uninterrupted and I'm deeply deeply grateful because when I leave here and I go to other places I'm like oh I'm spoiled let me be grateful and you could still be in Georgia and feel that and yeah I mean like so as you leave certain parts you're like

[00:33:18] okay where we at? Outside of Atlanta is still Georgia name three things on your bucket list learn how to swim I don't know how to swim learn how to like salsa I'm a little stiff in my hips so I'm trying I want to get that fixed you know I want to loosen my hips up a little bit and finish this book it's always a bucket list item what is the next project and when can I be done

[00:33:48] with it truly if you were a color what color would you be? Oh blue why? Blue is water and blue is also so important to black people the front my front door is blue I think about the blues I think about jazz bluegrass I think about sadness shout out to Imani Perry black and blues yeah what brings you joy? my friends

[00:34:19] yeah they bring me so much joy and my sister and what brings you peace? oh quiet quiet nothing makes me happy you know what quiet also brings me joy quiet is such an underrated gift I can bask in it for days it is wonderful all right so our game is called rewriting the classics classic is however you define it okay name one book

[00:34:48] you wish you would have written oh beloved by Toni Morrison if I could even just step into her mind for one second and you see how how did you do this? like what happens she loses her mind and then she comes back to us and she's like oh here's this offering and we're all like okay we I don't think we can see that a person wrote

[00:35:18] these works an actual human being wrote this name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? I don't have one okay I guess I'm usually a person who accepts things I'm like okay well this is what this is okay and so my next messy question name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught

[00:35:47] and why okay so this is not me being a type of way right I think people talk about this book in a way that's sometimes out of context historical context without having a certain analysis the bible I think people be taking the bible and they don't have the right analysis a lot of times and it's also like if we believe that the bible is a historical text right and that people were

[00:36:17] writing this as they were living then that also means that that writing is also continuing to this day we are writing and for us to not include certain things in our thinking and our beliefs and ideologies it's a little bit boring basic not the bible I'm not saying the bible is basic or boring I think our reading and our interactions with it is kind of okay let's save that for Tuesday final question when you are dead and gone

[00:36:47] and among the ancestors what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind that I was generous I want to be so generous in my work that people can get free in a way or touch something inside themselves and seek to encounter it possibly change it to understand it but in order for me to be generous it also must mean that I

[00:37:17] must continue to study and to write and to be a student and it's a gift that keeps on giving generosity is something that should be encouraged amongst everybody because when we are all generous no one goes without anything big thank you to W.J. Lofton for being here today on Black and Published you can follow William on the socials at mrjamespoetry on Instagram and threads and make sure you check out

[00:37:47] Boy Maybe out now from Beacon Press you can get a copy of the poetry collection from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code blackpub at checkout that's B-L-K-P-U-B that's our show for the week if you like this episode and want more Black and Published head to our Instagram page it's at blackandpublished and that's B-L-K and Published there

[00:38:16] I've posted a bonus clip for my interview with William about what it means to live a big life make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments I'll highlight y'all next week when our guest will be Den Michelle Norris author of the novel When the Harvest Comes I wanted to show tenderness between them I wanted to show a moment of Davis giving himself over to Everett for physical tenderness and physical love

[00:38:45] and physical safekeeping without it being a sexual moment I wanted it to just be a moment of existence that physical intimacy that physical touch and Davis giving himself over to Everett in this way because so much of the novel was going to be Davis not doing that That's next week on Black and Published I'll talk to you then Peace

[00:39:15] What's going on family? This is Derek Young and Ramonda Young owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode and if you enjoyed what you just heard drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books and we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future Thank you again fam and always remember Black Books Matter and we'll see you next time