Free Rein to Write with Shannon Sanders

[00:00:00] I did not want to feel like I was going to have to take things that I really liked and

[00:00:04] valued about the book and change them drastically.

[00:00:08] What's good?

[00:00:09] I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, and this is Black and Published, bringing you the journeys of

[00:00:14] writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:19] Today's guest is Shannon Sanders, author of the short story collection, Company.

[00:00:26] It's a collection of 13 stories of a multi-generational family centering four sisters, their partners,

[00:00:32] parents and children that examines the multitudes held within people, whether their title is

[00:00:38] son, daughter or mother.

[00:00:41] As a new parent, I was still very much thinking about what it meant to be a parent

[00:00:45] and what it meant to deal with those questions in a community that places the value that

[00:00:50] it does on parenthood.

[00:00:52] And I do think that the bougie Black community definitely has its viewpoints on what does

[00:00:57] it mean if you are or are not a parent at this point in your life.

[00:01:02] Shannon came to crafting her collection completely by accident after attending several writing

[00:01:07] workshops and having to produce on a deadline.

[00:01:11] She explains why she thinks about what's enjoyable for her reader as she's creating

[00:01:15] new work.

[00:01:17] Plus what she believes it means to leave an inheritance and legacy in the Black community.

[00:01:23] And how eavesdropping helps her accurately excavate the interior lives of bougie Black folk.

[00:01:30] That and more is next when Black Unpublished continues.

[00:01:46] All right, so Shannon, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:49] When I was a little kid.

[00:01:52] I think a lot of writers probably say that they were really voracious readers first.

[00:01:57] But I was very much that.

[00:01:58] I was one of those kids who was actually being told I needed to put the book down

[00:02:02] and go participate and do other things.

[00:02:04] And my parents would take the book out of my hands when I went to the dinner

[00:02:07] table and that kind of thing.

[00:02:09] And I was just telling my brother this the other day, he said that he used to

[00:02:13] try to read my babysitter's club books and he could not get through even one

[00:02:17] sentence of them.

[00:02:18] He thought they were so boring, but I found them so addictive and I just I read

[00:02:23] every single one.

[00:02:24] And I at some point I remember starting to think about how the author Anne Martin,

[00:02:30] how she was making choices to continue the story and to continue the world.

[00:02:34] So I think that's probably when I knew when I started trying to dissect how other

[00:02:38] writers were doing their thing.

[00:02:40] But then you became a lawyer.

[00:02:42] So how did that decision go down?

[00:02:44] I came from a family where we had a handful of lawyers and people were very focused on

[00:02:49] education.

[00:02:50] And what are you going to do?

[00:02:51] What are you going to try to build?

[00:02:53] And what sort of career are you going to have?

[00:02:55] And we did not have a lot of people who were professional creatives in my

[00:02:59] family.

[00:03:00] So I didn't really have a very close up model of somebody who was making a

[00:03:04] whole life out of creating things.

[00:03:06] I did have, of course, like I just said, the role models of the authors of

[00:03:09] the books that I was enjoying.

[00:03:11] But when it was time for me to decide what to do after college, I just really never

[00:03:17] considered going straight into writing as a career or anything like that.

[00:03:21] I wanted to see if I could find a way to support myself, to have as many

[00:03:25] options open as I possibly could for later career moves.

[00:03:29] And then I didn't really circle back to write more until I was kind of into my

[00:03:35] legal career and just looking for ways to broaden my horizons and have some fun.

[00:03:40] So then writing then became escape from dealing with law?

[00:03:46] I mean, I wouldn't say an escape from dealing with law because I still

[00:03:49] obviously I have a day job and then I also have my writing as an outlet.

[00:03:53] I think that the two kind of complement each other because I have to

[00:03:57] do a lot of writing for work, but it's not creative writing at all.

[00:04:01] It is very kind of by a formula.

[00:04:03] It's pretty technical, but I still do feel like the practice of writing

[00:04:08] professionally a lot helps me just have kind of like a fluency that I can then use for

[00:04:13] my creative writing and vice versa.

[00:04:16] In my late 20s, I was kind of looking for ways to meet some new people and looking for some

[00:04:21] creative outlets.

[00:04:22] I had just come out of a relationship.

[00:04:24] It was not a good relationship and I was looking for ways to get back to things

[00:04:27] that I enjoyed doing.

[00:04:29] And I found some local workshops for all levels and it kind of like gave me an excuse to

[00:04:37] write on a regular basis because I knew I had to turn things in to the workshop.

[00:04:41] So instead of feeling like I was taking away time from my real life, my day job,

[00:04:46] all that stuff to do something that I just thought was fun, I felt like, well,

[00:04:51] I spent the money on this workshop so now I should make sure that I actually

[00:04:55] do what I'm supposed to do and turn in a story.

[00:04:57] Sylvan, in taking workshops and investing in your craft and doing all of that type of

[00:05:04] skill building, when you started, were you always writing toward what became company

[00:05:10] or were the stories kind of one-offs here and there?

[00:05:14] At first they were one-offs here and there.

[00:05:16] So like I said, when you sign up for a workshop, they give you a deadline for your turn

[00:05:19] and it's usually a few weeks in the future.

[00:05:22] And I took workshops several times in a row because I was finding it really fun.

[00:05:26] And so I just kept having these deadlines.

[00:05:28] And so each time I would write a story, everybody in the class always wants to know,

[00:05:32] is this part of a novel?

[00:05:33] I feel like there's more that you could pull out of this.

[00:05:36] And I just kind of always ignored that.

[00:05:38] But what did start to happen was I would write a short story

[00:05:42] and then when it was time to write another one,

[00:05:44] I would find inspiration in a character from the previous story

[00:05:48] who I felt like I had not gotten to explore in three dimensions.

[00:05:53] And so one of the earliest stories that I wrote is the first story in the book.

[00:05:57] It's called The Good, Good Men.

[00:05:58] And it's about two sons who are interacting with their mom,

[00:06:02] but their mom is not necessarily a real full person to them

[00:06:05] in the way that often children don't see their parents as full people.

[00:06:09] And so when it was time to write something else,

[00:06:12] I really wanted to explore the same character, their mom,

[00:06:15] but I wanted to give her a little bit more dimension.

[00:06:17] And so I wrote another story from the perspective of one of her sisters.

[00:06:21] And so that sort of thing just kept happening.

[00:06:24] So I did that a few times and I just kept sort of building on these characters

[00:06:27] that I was getting to know.

[00:06:29] And then eventually I was six or eight stories into it

[00:06:33] and an agent reached out to me

[00:06:35] because I had just won a prize for one of the stories.

[00:06:38] And she wanted to know whether I was working on something that was book length.

[00:06:41] And so at that point, I kind of started to take inventory

[00:06:45] and I thought, wow, I have a lot of stories about this family already in motion.

[00:06:50] And we sort of talked about like what the possibilities were.

[00:06:53] Maybe I could add a few more stories

[00:06:55] and I could just connect some of the dots

[00:06:57] that had not been fleshed out in some of the stories.

[00:07:00] So it became a collection because I realized

[00:07:03] I had already put together the makings of a collection,

[00:07:06] but that was not the intention at the beginning.

[00:07:08] No, I love how organic your process was.

[00:07:12] Can you talk about the publishing process

[00:07:15] after the agent reached out to you and then you realize, oh wait,

[00:07:18] I maybe I think I have something here

[00:07:20] and how it was to go out with the short story collection on submission.

[00:07:25] Sure. Yeah.

[00:07:26] So my agent is wonderful. Her name is Rayko Davis.

[00:07:29] And she is an editorial agent in the sense that she really did take some ownership

[00:07:35] of helping me make sure that the collection was as polished as we could get it.

[00:07:38] She had really good suggestions about what she thought I should add to the collection.

[00:07:43] At that time, like I said, I had maybe somewhere between six and eight stories ready

[00:07:47] when she and I started working together.

[00:07:49] And she helped me to get it to a place where there were 12 stories total

[00:07:53] because she suggested that it would be good for the collection to have some pieces

[00:07:57] that were not yet published and publicly available.

[00:08:00] And so by that point, I had had most of the stories published

[00:08:03] and then I added a few more that had not been yet.

[00:08:06] So we, I'm skipping over a lot of time here because there were like two years

[00:08:11] of the beginning of a pandemic. I had twins during this time also.

[00:08:15] Congratulations.

[00:08:16] Thank you. I had a toddler before that.

[00:08:19] And so now my kids are five, two and two.

[00:08:22] But there was a really long time where it was just not possible to do much work

[00:08:27] on the collection because-

[00:08:28] Babies.

[00:08:29] Yeah, babies and no childcare.

[00:08:31] And I was still working.

[00:08:34] So skipping over those couple of years, we took the book out on submission

[00:08:37] in October 2021 and it went to auction.

[00:08:42] It ended up going to auction, which was fabulous.

[00:08:45] I didn't really know what to expect because I had of course heard

[00:08:49] plenty of horror stories of people going on submission and not having

[00:08:53] good results and ending up very discouraged and all of that.

[00:08:56] But again, my agent was really supportive.

[00:08:58] She was very good at keeping my expectations realistic.

[00:09:01] And so then when I ended up with multiple offers, I was so excited.

[00:09:06] And one of the offers came from Grey Wolf Press

[00:09:09] who ultimately ended up publishing the book.

[00:09:11] And it came from an editor named Yuka Igarashi, who I had worked with before

[00:09:16] a little bit on one of the stories for this anthology when it won the prize,

[00:09:20] the Penn Robert J. Dow Short Story Prize for Emerging Writers.

[00:09:23] So she and I had already had like a little bit of experience working together.

[00:09:28] And then just in the conversations that we had about the book,

[00:09:31] I could tell that she had more or less the same vision that I did for it.

[00:09:36] She didn't want to change things dramatically that I didn't think should be changed.

[00:09:40] She was kind of on the same page with me about what the strengths of it were

[00:09:43] and what it still needed.

[00:09:45] And so it ultimately, it was a tough decision.

[00:09:49] So of course, it's like a really good problem to have.

[00:09:51] It's wonderful if it goes to auction and then it can be tricky to decide between

[00:09:57] offers that have different good things going for them.

[00:10:00] But I ended up being really, really happy with the choice to work with Grey Wolf.

[00:10:05] In talking about how to make a decision when your book goes up to auction,

[00:10:12] yes, one consideration is money.

[00:10:13] But the other consideration is style, rapport,

[00:10:18] and all of those other things that can't be quantified.

[00:10:21] Can you speak more about what it was that you were looking for

[00:10:26] in a relationship with a publisher that helped you make that decision in the end

[00:10:30] besides just having a rapport with the editor?

[00:10:33] Yeah, so 100%, I mean, money is definitely of course going to be part of it,

[00:10:37] I think for most writers.

[00:10:39] I was in the position of having a full-time day job.

[00:10:42] And even though this was of course going to be really great,

[00:10:46] it was not going to make or break my ability to feed my kids

[00:10:50] or anything like that.

[00:10:51] And so I felt like I had a little bit of flexibility to consider,

[00:10:55] like you said, the rapport with the editor.

[00:10:58] But I also was really interested in trying to set myself up

[00:11:01] to where I could publish something else later that I wanted to publish.

[00:11:06] So I knew I was working on a novel.

[00:11:09] At that point, I was part of the way through it.

[00:11:12] And I still had a lot of work to do.

[00:11:14] And I knew kind of that my writing pace was dependent on

[00:11:17] what was going on with my full-time job and with my kids, my family.

[00:11:21] And so I wanted to retain a little bit of flexibility

[00:11:24] to work on that at what I thought was going to be a sustainable pace.

[00:11:27] And I also wanted to have the chance to give the collection,

[00:11:30] which I really believed in and thought was a really good book,

[00:11:34] I wanted to give it a chance to be in the spotlight.

[00:11:37] And I know just from seeing this happen with some other authors,

[00:11:41] I know that sometimes when there is a two-book deal,

[00:11:44] that is a collection and a novel,

[00:11:46] that sometimes the novel is really the focus for the publisher

[00:11:49] and the short story collection is maybe more of a sidecar.

[00:11:52] And I really wanted to focus on the collection first and set myself up

[00:11:57] where I felt like I could then give all of my attention to the novel afterward.

[00:12:01] But, I mean, the rapport with the editor was a really big thing too,

[00:12:04] as was the reputation of the publisher.

[00:12:08] And Grey Wolf was really wonderful and warm to work with.

[00:12:11] And I had heard only good things about the experience

[00:12:13] of working with them through the editorial process.

[00:12:17] But also just recognizing that the ideas that I had for the book

[00:12:21] and what I thought should be developed further about it,

[00:12:25] what I thought was already working pretty well the way that it was,

[00:12:29] I really wanted to have the feeling that the editor that I worked with

[00:12:33] was on the same page with me about those things.

[00:12:36] Which is not to say that I didn't want to get like a big revision letter,

[00:12:39] even though I think that that would have been intimidating.

[00:12:41] And I did get, I got plenty of good editorial feedback from Yuka,

[00:12:45] but I did not want to feel like I was going to have to take things

[00:12:49] that I really liked and valued about the book and change them drastically.

[00:12:53] So I was more than happy to try to make it the best book that it could be,

[00:12:57] but there was some stuff in it that I felt very strongly about.

[00:13:01] And I was really happy that she showed support for those things.

[00:13:05] Yeah, we had a previous guest who was published with Grey Wolf,

[00:13:07] also Short Story Collection, Nana Nkwete, walking on cowrie shells.

[00:13:12] I wonder because Grey Wolf is a smaller press.

[00:13:16] And so do you feel like you were able to maintain a sense of artistic freedom

[00:13:24] in a way that you don't think would have been possible elsewhere?

[00:13:27] I can really only base that on what I hear of other people's experiences

[00:13:32] with some other publishers, I guess.

[00:13:34] I did feel like I had artistic freedom.

[00:13:36] Just for example, Yuka, my editor, wanted me to add one more story

[00:13:42] at the end of the process.

[00:13:44] So we had 12 stories, and she felt as though I should add one more

[00:13:48] for a number of reasons.

[00:13:49] But she gave me a pretty long leash to figure out what that story should be

[00:13:53] and what it should be like.

[00:13:55] And I ended up with something that she was not that thrilled with actually.

[00:14:01] And she was really positive about it.

[00:14:03] She gave me her thoughts about how she thought it should change

[00:14:06] or what she thought would make it work better in the collection.

[00:14:09] And she gave me some time to go away and develop it further.

[00:14:12] And I tried a few things.

[00:14:14] I mean, I remember going through about three different revisions of that story.

[00:14:18] And in the end, she was really happy with it.

[00:14:20] And I feel like there was a pretty wide range of things I could have done there

[00:14:25] that would have satisfied what she was looking for.

[00:14:28] So I did feel like I was being given a lot of free range to do,

[00:14:32] or free rein, I guess, to do what I wanted to do

[00:14:35] and what I felt like the collection needed.

[00:14:37] So then with that said, I have to know what story was the 13th story

[00:14:40] that you added at the last minute.

[00:14:41] It's like, I'm so curious now.

[00:14:45] So yeah, there's a story in the book called Rule Number One.

[00:14:48] And it is this is not the one that was the 13th story.

[00:14:52] That's actually the first story that I ever wrote chronologically.

[00:14:55] And it was written in 2015.

[00:14:58] And it was literally one of the first things I ever wrote for anybody to read.

[00:15:02] And it came from a prompt that I got in one of my workshops.

[00:15:06] And for anyone who's not read the book, it's almost more of a vignette.

[00:15:09] It's very short and it involves a mother kind of giving her daughter these rules for life.

[00:15:16] So then Yuka suggested that we do something else with that story.

[00:15:20] She wanted me to do something to develop that a little bit further.

[00:15:23] And so I ended up adding to that story all of these scenes of the mother

[00:15:29] while giving her daughter these rules for living,

[00:15:32] also preparing to have this guest over for dinner.

[00:15:34] And I was trying to weave the two together and braid them

[00:15:38] so that she's giving rules.

[00:15:39] And then you can see the mother putting them into practice and doing all these things.

[00:15:44] And it ended up being a lot longer and a little bit unwieldy.

[00:15:49] And so Yuka said, like, I'm not sure about this.

[00:15:52] Can we do something different?

[00:15:53] So then I sort of like surgically took each paragraph one at a time to see where did it fit.

[00:15:59] And so I ended up with Rule Number One pretty much the way that it was when I first wrote it.

[00:16:03] And then this other story that's in the book that's called Three Guests.

[00:16:06] So yeah, that's what I ended up with was these two much shorter stories.

[00:16:10] And they're kind of on opposite sides of the book.

[00:16:12] So since we're here and we're talking about the book, let's get into the book.

[00:16:15] Can you read something from Company and then we can get into this family?

[00:16:20] Sure.

[00:16:22] Shannon Sanders Company is a linked collection of 13 stories

[00:16:26] about the multi-generational Collins family.

[00:16:28] It features two sons who oust their mother's latest boyfriend,

[00:16:32] four sisters who come to visit their dying mother and stand united against one sister's trifling

[00:16:38] husband, daughters who listen and cousins who don't.

[00:16:42] It's an offering that explores the perspective of every generation

[00:16:46] without declaring any one side right or wrong.

[00:16:50] Here's Shannon.

[00:16:51] So I'm just going to read from the beginning of the very first story in the book,

[00:16:55] which is called The Good Good Men.

[00:16:58] And so here we go.

[00:16:59] Theo had come all the way from New York with no luggage.

[00:17:03] From the parking lot, Miles watched him spring from the train and weave past the other travelers,

[00:17:08] sidestepping their children in suitcases with practiced finesse,

[00:17:12] the first of anyone to make it across the steaming platform.

[00:17:16] His hair was shaved close on the sides,

[00:17:18] one thick strip left to grow skyward from the crown of his head.

[00:17:23] In his dark, lean clothing, hands shoved deep in his pockets,

[00:17:27] he was a long streak of black against the brightly colored crowd.

[00:17:32] He alone had reached their father's full height.

[00:17:35] He made no eye contact with Miles as he strode to the car and yanked at the door handle.

[00:17:40] Still didn't, as he folded himself in half and dropped heavily into the passenger seat,

[00:17:44] releasing a long breath.

[00:17:47] Fucking hot, he said, pulling the door shut.

[00:17:50] Miles threw the car into drive and steered out of the parking lot,

[00:17:54] out of the knot of station traffic.

[00:17:56] Summertime, he said by way of ascent.

[00:18:00] These words, the first the brothers had spoken aloud to each other in over a year,

[00:18:04] hung in the air between them until the car reached the mouth of the highway.

[00:18:08] Their mother, Lee, had finally moved back out to the D.C. suburbs,

[00:18:12] to the end house in a single-family neighborhood all crisscrossed with telephone wires

[00:18:17] that Miles had often seen from the road.

[00:18:20] He was grateful for its proximity, only a four-mile drive from the train station.

[00:18:26] Last time around, searching for her dumpy apartment deep in the district,

[00:18:30] he and Theo had lost precious time to gridlock and confounding one-way streets

[00:18:34] and been beaten there by their sisters, turning the whole operation to chaos.

[00:18:39] A mess of shifting allegiances, tears, hysteria.

[00:18:43] Later, in the relative quiet of Miles' living room,

[00:18:46] Theo had complained of his ears ringing.

[00:18:49] No bag, nothing? asked Miles now, nodding toward Theo's empty hands.

[00:18:54] We need to stop for a toothbrush?

[00:18:56] No, said Theo.

[00:18:58] I'm good. I'm out tonight, right after Safeway.

[00:19:01] Miles thought of Lauren back home, washing the guest linens

[00:19:04] and Googling vegan dinner recipes since morning.

[00:19:07] Okay, he said. Quick trip, though.

[00:19:11] Just to keep it simple, said Theo.

[00:19:13] We dragged it out last time.

[00:19:15] A task like that always expands to fulfill whatever time you allocate for it.

[00:19:19] You know, we gave it two days and it took two days.

[00:19:22] We were inefficient.

[00:19:24] He reached for the dashboard and gave the AC knob a hard crank,

[00:19:27] calling up a blast of chilled air.

[00:19:30] This time, two hours.

[00:19:32] We'll give it two hours and we'll get it done in two hours.

[00:19:35] Miles suppressed a shiver,

[00:19:37] stealing a glance at his brother's outstretched arm.

[00:19:39] He saw an arc of freshly inked letters at the biceps,

[00:19:43] disappearing beneath a fitted sleeve.

[00:19:45] Lauren, who maintained aggressive Facebook surveillance of all her in-laws,

[00:19:49] had kept Miles apprised of each of Theo's new tattoos for years,

[00:19:53] undeterred by Miles' disinterest.

[00:19:56] Only this last had caught his attention.

[00:20:00] Bad stakeholder analysis is what it was, Theo was muttering.

[00:20:03] What's the new tattoo? asked Miles, pointing.

[00:20:06] Theo blinked at the graceless transition,

[00:20:08] then obligingly pushed up his sleeve.

[00:20:11] Got it in Los Angeles on a work trip.

[00:20:13] A girl I was with talked me into it.

[00:20:16] I had been thinking about this one for years.

[00:20:18] He traced his finger around the lettered circle,

[00:20:21] four words rendered to look like they'd been scrawled by hand in a familiar chicken scratch.

[00:20:26] Miles, Thelonious, Mary Olive, Caprice.

[00:20:30] For us, obviously.

[00:20:32] But where did you get daddy's handwriting to show the tattoo artist?

[00:20:35] Theo let the sleeve drop and folded his arms across his chest.

[00:20:39] From a check he sent to the old house for us,

[00:20:41] with our names in the memo line.

[00:20:43] I found it in a stack of Lee's work papers with a bunch of other ones

[00:20:46] and took it when I went to New York.

[00:20:49] It was in my wallet when I went on the Los Angeles trip.

[00:20:53] Miles felt a swell of heat despite the frigid air.

[00:20:56] You took a check from her and never gave it back?

[00:20:59] Did you not hear me?

[00:21:00] It was with a bunch of other ones and it was about eight years old.

[00:21:04] All the checks were years and years old, some of them reissues of older ones.

[00:21:09] He would write that in the memo line.

[00:21:11] He would send them and she would put them someplace idiotic,

[00:21:13] like tucked in the finished crossword puzzles

[00:21:16] or a pile of old magazines and then I guess lose them.

[00:21:19] So he had to write new ones.

[00:21:21] She was always doing that kind of shit with checks.

[00:21:24] I found this one and the others all mixed in with the girls old coloring books.

[00:21:28] I took one and left the others there for her to find.

[00:21:31] Never.

[00:21:31] Is that okay with you?

[00:21:34] Theo's posture had gone rigid.

[00:21:35] His face turned squarely in Miles' direction.

[00:21:38] Miles took his eyes off the road long enough to stare back.

[00:21:41] But like a traveler gone too long from his hometown,

[00:21:44] forgetting its habits and idioms, he had lost his fluency in the quirks of his brother's face.

[00:21:50] At one time he had been able to tell from the slightest twitch of an eyelid

[00:21:54] that Theo had been teased past his threshold and was about to cry

[00:21:58] to hear an impending temper tantrum in the sharpness of his inhale.

[00:22:02] All that was years ago when any impulse would buzz between them like a current

[00:22:06] felt by one brother even before the other acted on it.

[00:22:10] When a germ passed to either inevitably would invade the other.

[00:22:14] A far away definitively ended time.

[00:22:17] The composition of Theo's face was the same as always.

[00:22:20] Brooding features assembled slickly under a strong brow.

[00:22:24] But now it was like their father's face in the pictures.

[00:22:26] Impassive.

[00:22:28] All traces of thought as strange and unreadable as hieroglyphics.

[00:22:32] Thank you.

[00:22:33] So as I was reading the collection, I initially thought that the setting was all in DC.

[00:22:40] And then I realized they were spread out across the East Coast.

[00:22:43] So DC, New York, Atlantic City, I think Philly, just different places like that.

[00:22:48] A little bit of Philadelphia and Atlanta, yeah.

[00:22:50] Yeah, but it gave me bougie Black people everywhere, right?

[00:22:58] Well, this is probably why I thought it was DC specifically because of this first store,

[00:23:01] but I was like these are just bougie Black people in bougie places.

[00:23:07] That's about right, yeah.

[00:23:08] And so not that Black people are monolithic, but there is a specificity to the levels of bougie

[00:23:17] that Black people have.

[00:23:18] And I think you captured it very well in the preoccupation with education,

[00:23:26] the preoccupation with speech, with wine, with jobs, with cars and clothing

[00:23:33] and all of those different things.

[00:23:34] How intimately do you know that life?

[00:23:39] Well, thank you for saying that first of all.

[00:23:43] So for sure, some of this reflects some of the culture that I grew up in

[00:23:48] and then some of the culture that I have witnessed because I did.

[00:23:51] In fact, I went to college in Atlanta.

[00:23:53] I went to Spelman and there are people in my life for sure who are not relatives

[00:23:58] or people who raised me or anything like that, but who are preoccupied with cars

[00:24:03] and with brand names and that kind of thing.

[00:24:06] My family is very concerned with education, making sure that everybody has a path forward.

[00:24:12] And so that was kind of an element that I wanted to capture.

[00:24:15] But then some of the slightly more neurotic or self-conscious things are, I think,

[00:24:21] things that a lot of us experience in part when we're going to be interacting

[00:24:26] with the larger world in different ways.

[00:24:28] So when I was growing up, I definitely was shown different things about like the

[00:24:32] value of education and the value of presenting yourself in a certain way or whatever.

[00:24:37] But then some of my early professional experiences taught me even more lessons

[00:24:41] about how things would be received and what would benefit me to be able to hone

[00:24:45] and all that kind of stuff.

[00:24:47] So most of the cities in the book, I feel very strongly that I want to make sure

[00:24:53] I can capture some degree of authenticity.

[00:24:56] I don't want to ever be accused of not knowing well enough something

[00:25:00] that I'm trying to write about.

[00:25:01] And this is a book that I didn't have to do a ton of research for,

[00:25:04] but I did have to do some research.

[00:25:06] So I was raised in DC.

[00:25:07] I'm from Silver Spring, Maryland.

[00:25:08] So like I shouldn't say I was raised in DC.

[00:25:10] I was raised in Silver Spring, Maryland.

[00:25:12] The DMV.

[00:25:14] It qualifies.

[00:25:16] Exactly.

[00:25:17] Like I said, I went to college in Atlanta.

[00:25:19] I came back and went to law school in DC.

[00:25:21] And I have relatives who are kind of along the East Coast.

[00:25:24] And I think a lot of us who are part of multi-generational Black families

[00:25:29] have roots or at least tentacles of the family tree that are

[00:25:33] along the East Coast because of the great migration.

[00:25:36] I do think that a lot of people can probably see themselves in

[00:25:39] the way that these sisters kind of fanned out into these different cities

[00:25:43] and are kind of doing different things.

[00:25:45] In the story, the Opal Cleft, you have a couple things going on,

[00:25:48] but the one that really struck me in talking about people's preoccupation

[00:25:53] and certain neuroses is how you come up in these environments

[00:25:58] in the Black community where better is always expected of the next generation

[00:26:02] no matter what that better looks like.

[00:26:04] The children tend to feel like they're failing if they're not always striving.

[00:26:09] And so in this story, Theo, who for some reason no longer has his job,

[00:26:15] I think it's a gambling problem, is now out and trying to hustle up on some work.

[00:26:21] And so he goes to this networking thing.

[00:26:25] And then at the end of the catch up with friends who could help him,

[00:26:30] he gets this email that I was like, oh, that's like, this is it took me out.

[00:26:35] It says, really enjoy catching up with you, man.

[00:26:38] Shared what you said with Tiff and we'll both keep it in mind.

[00:26:41] We think you'll find a good fit soon.

[00:26:43] Wanted to say that we think it's good you're taking a break from some of that for now.

[00:26:47] Wouldn't want to see you burn out again so soon or get caught up in anything else.

[00:26:51] Just enjoy the extra time with Asia.

[00:26:53] It's like when you get those emails at work when it says,

[00:26:56] so-and-so is no longer working at this company.

[00:26:58] We wish them the best in their future endeavors.

[00:27:00] Yeah, it was one of those emails were from friends and I was like, oh,

[00:27:04] I was not ready.

[00:27:06] But so many of the relationships have that intimacy and then that distance,

[00:27:13] whether it's family or friends or acquaintances

[00:27:16] or crazy neighbors with Ouija boards in the basement.

[00:27:21] Like all of that is there.

[00:27:23] Where did you get the inspiration to connect

[00:27:26] the dots of these family and friends in that way?

[00:27:29] With like these little just like one-off details.

[00:27:33] Once I realized I was doing a linked collection,

[00:27:36] so like I said, that's about halfway through the writing of the stories.

[00:27:40] Then it became really fun because it was like a puzzle in a way.

[00:27:45] The question was how can I make it rewarding for the reader

[00:27:49] who is paying attention to the details?

[00:27:51] What will make it so that they will enjoy seeing which characters

[00:27:54] we're going to catch up with next?

[00:27:56] So I am very much an eavesdropper and an observer.

[00:28:00] There are plenty of things that happen to these characters

[00:28:02] that have never happened to me,

[00:28:04] but that I have seen through the eyes of different acquaintances.

[00:28:09] I see the way that people react to messages like that one

[00:28:13] that you just read in that excerpt.

[00:28:16] The way that some of those little distances kind of take shape,

[00:28:19] even if it looks like there's an intimacy there still.

[00:28:21] Or the way that people talk to each other

[00:28:23] when they do feel a kinship,

[00:28:25] but they also want to express rejection, you know,

[00:28:27] like in that example.

[00:28:30] I feel like that's one of the really fun challenges of writing

[00:28:34] is trying to capture that in the least space possible

[00:28:38] and to try to render a relationship by using just like

[00:28:41] whatever the most economical details are that you can

[00:28:45] that will show someone kind of what the contours

[00:28:46] of the relationship are like.

[00:28:48] So there are lots of examples throughout the book of two people

[00:28:52] just having like one little dialogue.

[00:28:54] Maybe it's like one exchange of words one time,

[00:28:57] but then we come to understand why their relationship

[00:29:00] hopefully is the way that it is later.

[00:29:02] And yeah, I find that that's really fun.

[00:29:04] That's really rewarding for me as a writer.

[00:29:05] I think that it and it's especially rewarding

[00:29:07] when people actually notice it and pick up on it in the reading.

[00:29:10] So that has been a lot of fun.

[00:29:14] Yeah, reading link collections that read like novels

[00:29:17] is always fun for me because I do pick up on the details.

[00:29:20] But what I also notice overall in the collection,

[00:29:24] maybe not every story, but in a great deal of them,

[00:29:27] especially in Dragonflies is how people come to motherhood

[00:29:34] and how they choose to raise their children or not

[00:29:39] and the decisions that they make.

[00:29:41] And as you spoke about having a son

[00:29:43] and then being pregnant with twins

[00:29:45] and taking time off to like focus on raising babies

[00:29:48] before you could really focus on writing.

[00:29:50] How your experience of motherhood impacted everything

[00:29:54] that you wanted to say about motherhood in this collection.

[00:29:58] So you just mentioned one of the stories, Dragonflies.

[00:30:01] There are three stories in the book total.

[00:30:03] Dragonflies is another one that's called The Gatekeepers

[00:30:06] and another one that's called Moat.

[00:30:08] And all three of those stories kind of diverge

[00:30:11] a little bit from the family tree.

[00:30:12] They all have characters as protagonists

[00:30:15] who are not members of the Collins family.

[00:30:18] And they are the only three stories in the book

[00:30:20] that are not centered on Collins family members.

[00:30:22] And they were all written right around the 27, 2018 time frame

[00:30:28] when I was either about to become a parent

[00:30:30] or had just become a parent to my first son.

[00:30:33] And they all, I think that the reason for that departure

[00:30:36] is that I was really starting to view things differently

[00:30:39] and starting to deal with some of those questions

[00:30:41] in my own life of first of all, whether to become a parent

[00:30:44] at all because as we know many millennials choose not to.

[00:30:48] And then what it was going to look like,

[00:30:50] what it would mean for my kind of role in my own family.

[00:30:53] So my mom was gonna become a grandmother for the first time

[00:30:56] and I could see her dealing with kind of like questions

[00:31:00] of what her role was gonna be

[00:31:02] and how much agency she was going to have.

[00:31:05] And that's kind of where that story,

[00:31:06] The Gatekeepers comes from

[00:31:07] because it involves a grandmother who is really having

[00:31:11] to struggle with not being able to influence the way

[00:31:14] that her grandchild is being raised more than she is.

[00:31:17] And then Dragonflies is the one that's about a young woman

[00:31:20] or a youngish woman, I guess, who is trying to figure out

[00:31:23] how she's going to become a parent in a family

[00:31:25] that very much values family and adding children

[00:31:28] to the family, but she hasn't found a man

[00:31:31] or she hasn't made it work with a man.

[00:31:33] And that was something that even though I was kind of like

[00:31:36] on the other side of that question for myself,

[00:31:40] I still very much remembered

[00:31:42] and I still had a lot of the stress left over

[00:31:45] in kind of my body about how I was going to handle it

[00:31:48] if things didn't come together for me

[00:31:50] in the way that I was hoping that they would.

[00:31:52] And then Moat is about a character who has decided

[00:31:54] she does not wanna be a parent,

[00:31:56] but there's still this lingering tension in her life

[00:31:58] about whether that was the right choice

[00:32:00] for both her and her husband.

[00:32:02] And she's trying to reconnect with this friend

[00:32:04] who is a new parent when there's some

[00:32:06] of those different conflicts that can come up

[00:32:07] at that phase in life.

[00:32:09] And so before that, I was writing only

[00:32:11] about the Collins family just from all different

[00:32:14] vantage points and then those three stories

[00:32:16] really took me through that period in my life

[00:32:18] where I was transforming from a non-parent

[00:32:20] to a new parent.

[00:32:22] And then on the other side of it,

[00:32:23] things were a little bit different

[00:32:24] and I was kind of back to the Collins family again.

[00:32:27] So when my son was nine months old,

[00:32:29] the elevator in our building had to be replaced.

[00:32:32] And so we lived on the fifth floor at that time

[00:32:35] and we were having to like carry his stroller

[00:32:38] up and downstairs and then carry him up

[00:32:40] and downstairs and his stuff.

[00:32:41] And he had so much stuff and all of this.

[00:32:44] And so the final story in the book

[00:32:45] is called The Everest Society

[00:32:47] and it involves a couple that is dealing with that

[00:32:50] while trying to pass a background check

[00:32:52] with a social worker to adopt a child.

[00:32:54] So I see that I was as a new parent,

[00:32:58] I was still very much thinking about

[00:32:59] like what it meant to be a parent

[00:33:01] and what it meant to deal with those questions

[00:33:04] in a community that places the value

[00:33:06] that it does on parenthood.

[00:33:07] And I do think that the bougie Black community

[00:33:10] definitely has its viewpoints on

[00:33:12] what does it mean if you are or are not a parent

[00:33:15] at this point in your life,

[00:33:17] you know, in your professional life.

[00:33:18] That point being 35.

[00:33:21] There you go. Yes, exactly.

[00:33:23] That number comes up a lot

[00:33:25] being on the right side of 35,

[00:33:26] being on the wrong side of 35,

[00:33:29] having too many children,

[00:33:31] having not enough children,

[00:33:32] having no children,

[00:33:33] having children with the wrong man,

[00:33:35] having children with the right man

[00:33:36] who kisses the ground that you walk on.

[00:33:38] You talk about it all.

[00:33:41] Yeah, it's a thing.

[00:33:44] I find that in you

[00:33:46] elucidating all these things about motherhood,

[00:33:50] it not only illustrates the precariousness of it,

[00:33:54] but also I think without being very loud,

[00:33:59] discusses choice in a way

[00:34:02] that shows people that no matter what choice you make

[00:34:04] about parenting,

[00:34:07] it's something that you're going to have to stand firm on

[00:34:10] because there are always going to be people who judge you.

[00:34:12] Yeah, and that was really important to me

[00:34:14] because I made the choices that I did.

[00:34:16] I'm definitely a person who has internalized

[00:34:18] some of the pressures from the past generations

[00:34:21] and from the people in my life who are elders.

[00:34:23] And I have relatives.

[00:34:25] I'm the oldest daughter in my family,

[00:34:27] you know, and I'm the oldest cousin on one side.

[00:34:29] And I don't think that birth order is the only thing

[00:34:32] that influences this,

[00:34:34] but I do think that it's meaningful in a lot of ways.

[00:34:38] Who react to those pressures very differently

[00:34:40] and in ways that I really, in some cases, admire

[00:34:43] because I think that choosing a life path

[00:34:45] is extremely empowering and important.

[00:34:48] And especially feeling as though you can choose

[00:34:51] that you're not going to place parenthood,

[00:34:53] for example, on a pedestal,

[00:34:55] even if everybody else in your life is doing it.

[00:34:57] So it's done kind of quietly in this book,

[00:35:00] but there are nods to people opting

[00:35:03] to make different decisions for themselves.

[00:35:05] It's something that I'm going to explore

[00:35:06] a little bit more loudly in my next book.

[00:35:08] So can you tell us just a bit what you're working on next?

[00:35:12] Sure.

[00:35:13] So the novel involves one of the characters

[00:35:15] who's in the short story collection.

[00:35:16] It's a character named Aubrey.

[00:35:18] And in the short story collection,

[00:35:20] she's the young teenage hot mess for the most part

[00:35:23] or a slightly older hot mess.

[00:35:25] And then in the novel, she is coming off of a breakup

[00:35:30] and she is going through some stuff professionally.

[00:35:33] Personally, she has not quite got herself together

[00:35:36] and she learns that she is a part owner

[00:35:40] of a significant piece of family property

[00:35:43] in another state.

[00:35:44] And so kind of like the short story collection does,

[00:35:47] the novel in progress involves these questions

[00:35:50] of like inheritance and legacy

[00:35:53] and what do we do with the inheritances

[00:35:55] that we are given?

[00:35:57] So it involves her trying to figure out

[00:35:59] what to make of the fact that she has come

[00:36:00] into this giant inheritance

[00:36:02] that she's not necessarily equipped to deal with

[00:36:05] and reconnecting with some relatives

[00:36:07] and that kind of thing.

[00:36:08] And it is narrated by a ghost.

[00:36:11] And so I am working on some things

[00:36:16] that that kind of means.

[00:36:17] So there are lots of different challenges.

[00:36:19] It's a whole other thing than a short story collection.

[00:36:22] I just got a real entry like narrated by a ghost.

[00:36:28] And so one of the things that I have to sort of remember

[00:36:31] is that with a novel,

[00:36:32] because it's going to be a sustained relationship

[00:36:34] between the writer and the reader

[00:36:35] as opposed to just like a one-off.

[00:36:37] Like if you don't like this story,

[00:36:38] you can just turn and try the next one.

[00:36:41] With a novel, there's a lot of stuff

[00:36:44] that you have to make work for a long period of time.

[00:36:47] So yeah, it is coming together.

[00:36:50] I am most of the way done with it

[00:36:52] and I am looking forward to getting it

[00:36:54] into the hands of my agent

[00:36:55] so that she can tell me where to go back and start over.

[00:36:59] I'm excited for you.

[00:37:00] All right, I'm going to move to the speed round of the game

[00:37:02] before I let you go for the afternoon.

[00:37:05] What is your favorite book?

[00:37:06] I don't think I can name a favorite book,

[00:37:08] but Toni Morrison's Jazz is one of my seminal texts

[00:37:13] and a favorite recent book.

[00:37:15] It's Danielle Evans' The Office of Historical Corrections.

[00:37:18] So she's my short story idol.

[00:37:21] Who was your favorite author?

[00:37:22] Probably those exact same two people.

[00:37:24] So Toni Morrison was my big inspiration growing up.

[00:37:27] And then today, Danielle Evans, Disha Filia.

[00:37:30] Hey, Disha.

[00:37:34] Since you're in the DMV

[00:37:35] and there's been all this brouhaha about brunch spots

[00:37:39] and DC is known to brunch,

[00:37:40] what is your favorite brunch spot?

[00:37:42] Oh my gosh, I haven't been out anywhere in a long time,

[00:37:44] but it used to be Marvin on U Street.

[00:37:47] What is your favorite TV show?

[00:37:49] Right now I'm watching The Morning Show

[00:37:51] and it's wild.

[00:37:53] If money were no object, where would you go?

[00:37:56] Where would you live and what would you do?

[00:37:58] I think I would try to write more books.

[00:38:00] I mean, I would be,

[00:38:01] I would try to be a novelist for a longer period of time

[00:38:04] while raising my kids.

[00:38:05] And I would go somewhere.

[00:38:08] Now I don't necessarily want to live in these places

[00:38:10] at a cultural level, but my favorite season is fall.

[00:38:14] And I would love to be someplace

[00:38:16] where there was rain and leaves turning colors

[00:38:18] and where I could be in a cottage by the lake

[00:38:21] and be by myself.

[00:38:22] So it would probably be something

[00:38:23] like the Hudson River Valley

[00:38:25] just for like the beauty and the solitude.

[00:38:27] And then I would want to be

[00:38:28] within driving distance of a city.

[00:38:30] So maybe I would have a pea to tear

[00:38:32] in the Hudson River Valley,

[00:38:33] but I would live in like Manhattan

[00:38:35] or something in a sky rise.

[00:38:37] That actually sounds quite perfect.

[00:38:40] Minus the cold, I don't like cold.

[00:38:43] Three things on your bucket list?

[00:38:44] Spending a significant period of time in Paris

[00:38:48] by myself.

[00:38:50] So without kids with me.

[00:38:52] I love to buy myself is emphasized

[00:38:56] and I think it's only parents who understand like,

[00:38:58] no, we're not bringing the children on this.

[00:39:01] Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:02] Yeah, I had plans to go for my 30th,

[00:39:05] but then I had kids.

[00:39:06] So then I was so just in Nappin.

[00:39:09] So yes, so that would be one thing.

[00:39:11] Another would be,

[00:39:13] I want to learn how to do goldsmithing.

[00:39:15] I would love to make my own gold jewelry

[00:39:17] and I would love to make something for everybody that I know.

[00:39:21] And building a house from scratch

[00:39:25] and decorating it, something like that.

[00:39:28] What brings you joy?

[00:39:29] My family, my kids,

[00:39:30] and then also reading work

[00:39:33] that I can tell the writer was enjoying writing.

[00:39:36] And what brings you peace?

[00:39:38] My mom saying you did a good job.

[00:39:41] It's not always happened.

[00:39:43] So I love that.

[00:39:46] All right.

[00:39:46] So the game is called Rewriting the Classics.

[00:39:48] Classic is however you define it.

[00:39:51] Name one book you wish you would have written.

[00:39:54] Oh, gosh.

[00:39:55] I mean, well, okay, back to Toni Morrison's Jazz,

[00:39:57] but like almost anything on her greatest hits list.

[00:40:02] All her books are the greatest hits.

[00:40:04] Truly all of them home.

[00:40:07] Okay, this is going to be an unpopular choice,

[00:40:09] but Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections,

[00:40:12] which, you know, is,

[00:40:14] I mean, like it's widely loved.

[00:40:16] So it's embarrassing to me that I love that book, but I do.

[00:40:19] There's an author named Lisa Taddeo.

[00:40:21] Her short story collection is called Ghost Lover,

[00:40:24] and I just love it so much.

[00:40:27] So this is an example of the kind of writing

[00:40:29] that you can tell she was really having so much fun

[00:40:32] while she was writing.

[00:40:33] Every time I read one of her stories,

[00:40:36] like I immediately want to go have some time to write

[00:40:38] because it just reminds me like how much fun it is.

[00:40:41] Name one book where you want to change the ending

[00:40:44] and how would you do it?

[00:40:46] Zadie Smith is someone I'm another fan of,

[00:40:49] and possibly White Teeth.

[00:40:53] I think maybe I would have it end differently

[00:40:55] because of the children of the two families

[00:40:57] that White Teeth is about.

[00:40:58] They end up going down these paths or whatever

[00:41:01] and they all have these problems.

[00:41:02] And I think I would probably end that

[00:41:04] a little bit more harmoniously,

[00:41:05] but I don't have a good rewrite for her

[00:41:07] because it's perfect.

[00:41:09] I think somebody else has said that before.

[00:41:11] About changing the ending of White Teeth?

[00:41:13] Yeah.

[00:41:15] All right.

[00:41:16] And so I really hope you answer this question

[00:41:19] because the answers I've been getting this season I love

[00:41:21] and they've all been the same,

[00:41:22] so I want to see where you are.

[00:41:24] Name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why.

[00:41:30] Okay.

[00:41:32] It's going to have to be someone who's not living

[00:41:33] because I will not say that someone's book is overrated.

[00:41:37] Who's still living right now.

[00:41:39] But the collected stories of Ernest Hemingway

[00:41:42] because I think they're so horrifically boring, but yeah.

[00:41:49] The popular answer this season

[00:41:50] has been Flannery O'Connor Catcher in the Rye.

[00:41:53] I think I've had 12 people say that in interviews that I've done.

[00:41:57] Yes.

[00:42:00] At this point, I'm now keeping count

[00:42:02] because so many people have said it.

[00:42:03] I'm just like, wow, people really hate this book.

[00:42:06] Oh my gosh, because that's the first one that I thought to myself.

[00:42:08] Well, not that one because I love Catcher in the Rye.

[00:42:10] I love Catcher in the Rye.

[00:42:13] I've never read it and so I'm just like, wow,

[00:42:16] people have very strong feelings.

[00:42:18] My final question for you today.

[00:42:20] When you're dead and gone and among the ancestors,

[00:42:22] what would you like someone to write about you

[00:42:24] and the legacy of work and words that you left behind?

[00:42:27] I hope that one of my sons has read my work at that point.

[00:42:32] Yeah, I mean, I have three sons and the stats are bad.

[00:42:36] Men reading fiction, but I hope that at least one of them chooses to

[00:42:40] and I hope that they appreciate it.

[00:42:42] I hope that somebody says at some point

[00:42:45] that I did a good job of accurately capturing

[00:42:49] a slice of what life was like in these times.

[00:42:52] I hope that somebody says that I did a good job

[00:42:55] of expressing something about the millennial experience

[00:42:58] in particular about what my generation of people

[00:43:00] is dealing with economically and psychologically.

[00:43:05] I don't know if that will necessarily come from this book, but something.

[00:43:08] And I hope that they say that everything that I wrote,

[00:43:11] because I do hope that I get a chance to publish more books,

[00:43:14] I hope that they say that everything is of quality.

[00:43:17] I hope that they all read as though they are books that I care about

[00:43:20] and that I really felt like I had something to say.

[00:43:23] Big thank you to Shannon Sanders for being here today on Black and Published.

[00:43:27] Make sure you check out Shannon's debut short story collection,

[00:43:30] Company, out now from Grey Wolf Press.

[00:43:34] And if you're not following Shannon, check her out on the socials.

[00:43:37] She's at ShandersWrites on Twitter and I exaggerate on Instagram.

[00:43:46] That's our show for the week.

[00:43:48] If you liked this episode and want more Black and Published,

[00:43:51] head to our Instagram page.

[00:43:53] It's at Black and Published and that's B-L-K and Published.

[00:44:00] There, I've posted a bonus clip for my interview with Shannon

[00:44:03] about what she wants readers to take away from her collection.

[00:44:07] Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:44:11] I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be

[00:44:14] Juliana Lamy, author of the short story collection

[00:44:17] you were watching from the sand.

[00:44:19] If any country or region in the entire world has made a deal with the devil,

[00:44:24] it is the colonial countries that took over the other countries.

[00:44:29] Because how do you do that without some evil force on your side?

[00:44:31] But the terror that is elicited, which is from these misconceptions of voodoo

[00:44:37] and other folk cultural practices, Santeria has the same experience.

[00:44:42] It's just really part and parcel of,

[00:44:44] it almost feels like this centuries-long punishment

[00:44:47] that Haiti has been enduring ever since it was able to free itself

[00:44:50] from under the weight of colonialism.

[00:44:53] That's next week on Black and Published.

[00:44:56] I'll talk to you then.

[00:44:57] Peace.