For the Love of Grandmothers with Melissa Mogollon

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What's good?

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published, bringing you the journeys of

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Today's guest is Melissa Mogollon, author of the novel, Oyez, a book she wrote without

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: a plan but with a singular purpose.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was kind of my last year towards the last semester that I wrote a short story

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: called Oyez which I wrote just to make my classmates laugh and to have them fall in

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: love with a version of my grandmother and that was the first story that just felt

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: like it didn't want to end.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It just got longer and longer and longer and I thought maybe this is the feeling

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: about when you finally get the idea of a novel.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Originally from Colombia, Melissa says some of the most absurd details she concocted

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: for her novel are really mundane in the ordinary lives of her community.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: In crafting this telenovela of a book, Melissa explains the feedback she received

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: for her experimental form and why she refused to change it.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Plus, how an obsession with beauty is really a fight for autonomy and power.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And how writing the novel gave Melissa a way to hang out with her grandmother for

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: years after she passed.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That and more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so let's jump right in.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Melissa, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably in high school.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I started to really explore more writing outside of what was being assigned to me

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: in the classroom and I realized I actually really like writing and literature and

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I started trying to go to open mics in the South Florida area.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when I realized writing could be so much more than what I was being

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: exposed to.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And it became like a practice for myself, a lot of self-soothing,

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: self-exploration and then I took college level courses.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was really when it came together that I could do this.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I've ever heard someone say writing is self-soothing.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you explain what you mean by that?

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I mean, to me, writing can be everything.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so included in that is like maddening, extremely frustrating.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I've cried.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I've cried so much writing characters from frustration, from how much I feel

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: called and connected to them.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But soothing in the sense that it's just me in my own voice, in my own

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: world, and it's my space.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of where I process a lot for my own self.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I get to like dump it and put it somewhere out of my brain and then almost edit it

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and revising what I'm writing.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm realizing so much of my own feelings towards subjects.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But so only the writing that is for myself that I don't share is soothing.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Got it.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Important clarification.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So then when you said you were down in South Florida going to open mics,

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: were you doing poetry or were you doing like short stories?

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what was that looking like for you?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was not doing any of it.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I was totally in sponge mode.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was just being exposed to it and really taking it all in, which was so much fun.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I love listening.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I love hearing other writers.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a lot of open mics, poetry open mics.

[00:03:39] Okay.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And so then what was it about those college level courses that clicked for you

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and said, you know what, I can do this myself?

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: My professor at the time really pushed me and helped me see that this is

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: potentially a career if I wanted it and if I was willing to work for it.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And he exposed me to resources that I had no idea existed.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what MFA's were.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what masters in fine arts were or that you could go to grad school

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: for writing and what those opportunities meant.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And so he explained these are fully funded.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to take the GRE for these.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And he helped me kind of put together an application.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a really pivotal point that changed my life.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And so then in doing that and going and getting your MFA

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: for your master's thesis, were you always working on what would become OYE

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: or have you had like other stories and publications out before that?

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I did not have anything out before that.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I had taken classes, so I had stories to apply to the program with,

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but I had not been published.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I was not even in English or writing major in college.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was not my sole focus.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It was definitely what fueled me and energized me the most.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was kind of following it for those reasons.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I got to my grad program straight from college,

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not have a novel in mind.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like excited to explore my voice,

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: explore different kinds of writing, different forms, learn a lot.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then so it was kind of my last year towards the last semester

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that I wrote a short story called OYE,

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: which I wrote just to make my classmates laugh

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and to have them fall in love with a version of my grandmother.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the first story that just felt like it didn't want to end.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It just got longer and longer and longer.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought maybe this is the feeling that they talk about

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: when you finally get the idea of a novel.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I just wrote until I couldn't write anymore and it wasn't ending.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I said, okay, this might be the novel.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds so simple.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet I'm drawn to what you said about writing something

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to make your classmates laugh because the first couple of chapters,

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I was cackling like out loud, cackling.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the book takes a turn, but it's still very funny throughout.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But it does take a dramatic turn.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: What was it about the subject matter that you cover?

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to be disrespectful,

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but maybe parodying your grandmother in the story

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that you feel like it wouldn't end.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if this is just a snapshot of what maybe your grandmother

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: was like in real life, I could see why the story didn't want to end.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The character is so vibrant.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. So definitely when the novel takes a turn,

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not what I wrote to make my classmates laugh.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted to do that for fun.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The genesis of the novel definitely came from my love

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: for my own real life grandmother.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I always say the grandmother in the book is a caricature.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And all the people are caricatures of many people I know

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and amalgamations of people I know,

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: my neighbors, my friends, my family.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And so some people are like,

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: is this your grandmother?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it you? Is it your friends?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's everyone. It's my whole community.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's every story I've heard.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I wrote a character that I thought would be fun for me

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to engage with for many, many years.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You're looking at your book over and over and over again.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it had to be people that I felt were fun for me

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to hang out with.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I liked that a lot of them are very extreme

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in their manifestation of their characteristics.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I definitely thought this is fun for me

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to make a commentary on the Latino culture

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that I grew up with and almost their products of that,

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: for sure.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I didn't want to end.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: More so I didn't know where they were going.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know where Luciana and Auer were going.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have an outline for this book,

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: which I don't want to do again with my next book.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I really believe in outlines.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's so much I do with Oya

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that I would not do again.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think it's what the book wanted.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of was just like writing, seeing where it went.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I didn't know where we were going

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: until probably a few years in.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, goodness.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: When did you start the novel

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and when you were in your grad program?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: What year was that?

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was 2018.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're now six years out

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and the book is coming out.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And you talk about not having an outline

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: so really riding by the seat of your pants,

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but then also wanting to make it fun for you

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to come back and revisit it again and again

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: over those six years.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think you were able to accomplish that?

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say from how much I loved the characters.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Usana, the protagonist,

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I was able to get her voice down so clearly.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It took a while, but once I did

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and once I broke through, I thought like

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I can tackle anything in her voice.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Any scene, any plot you throw at me

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: as Usana's voice,

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I know exactly how she'll handle it.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I had so much love for her.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish you were real.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like she is my little sister.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel as towards finishing the book,

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I could hear her being like,

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: let's go, let's go.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I know, but you got this.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We're so close.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So my love for her and I mean,

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just so many characteristics

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that I admire in young people

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and that I kind of wish I had had when I was her age.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And then on the other hand of that,

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: my love for Awi in this book

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and getting to like change my own grandmother's story

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: by getting to play different things out in this book.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So definitely I would not recommend writing a book

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that you're not fully obsessed with

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're going to spend so much time with it.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to enjoy it or else,

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: what is the freaking point?

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so yeah.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So then for those who don't know,

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the book is written entirely in phone calls

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: from Luciana to her sister, Mari,

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: about everything that is happening with Awi

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and their mother and their dad, their dog,

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the aunt that comes to visit after like 30 years of like beef.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's written all from that one side of character

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's all dialogue.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you do a little bit with like vignettes and titles,

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: but really it's all dialogue.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that always the way that you were writing?

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's really hard.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It was really hard.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say that's why it took so long to nail down.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It was the original format,

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but once I got some really thoughtful

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and correct feedback from classmates and professors saying,

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you know what, this is really fun,

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: but you're probably going to run into more constraints

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: than opportunities with this form.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It might start holding you back at a point.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, that's absolutely right.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I started, I had her regular first person,

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I tried third person, I had Mari talking,

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I had the grandmother talking,

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I had many different ways that I tried doing this

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: for like a year.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I had the first hundred pages written

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: in about three different ways.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just nothing was hitting like Luciana.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, honestly, her talking is the most fun for me.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And my own grandmother did unfortunately pass away

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: while I was writing this book.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And I realized that a lot of Mari's voice and her

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and monologues were kind of my own grief

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: manifesting in the story.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So once I extracted those,

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it just all came together and saying,

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was like, no, this is the story.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: This was my part of the story.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And once I got rid of that,

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the book just kind of really came together.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: In the book, the dedication is for my grandmother

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and all grandmothers for teaching me how to laugh.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And you talk, you just mentioned that your own grandmother

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: passed away as you were writing

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and that you had to extract your own grief

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: from this story.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: How did you do that?

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean that in like the way that I want you

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: like go inside your pain and tell me about it.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like so much of writing fiction

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: is processing real life events on the page,

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: even if it's behind the character.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe not necessarily what the book requires,

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but what the author requires to put the book down

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and then like you can go back and revise.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think having to nail down the voice, figure it out

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and then having to take your pain out of it

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to make the character shine, I think is very important.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's my question about like,

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: how did you do that?

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I appreciate that question.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It was such a gift to have this book

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in my mind and be working on it

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: when my grandmother did pass,

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: because it gave me somewhere to put my grief immediately.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I got to kind of hang out with her every single day

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: still because I was writing.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So it felt like it almost was like she didn't pass.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: She's still here with me.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And for about like two years,

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I was still writing it after her passing.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just felt like I kept thinking,

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I would have done

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: if I didn't have this book

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's helping me like continue her life,

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: continue to talk to her and do something for her

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and like build this thing for her.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that's the only way

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I was able to extract it in the end

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: because I took it all out of me.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I put it all in the book

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: just by being able to have this capsule

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that I entered every day to still talk with

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and see my grandmother.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was so important.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, after a few years

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: when I had some time,

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I was able to pull it out only

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: because I had that almost like excavation

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: was happening every day for a while.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think that's the only way

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I was able to kind of do that in the end.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So then having written this book

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in this different form

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and being very clear about what you wanted it to be,

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: what was it like for,

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and then also having it be so personal,

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: what was it like for you to go out

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to find an agent and then go on submission

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in the publication process?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I finished the first draft

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and immediately sent it out to a few agents

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: which is another thing I also regret.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I would never advise anyone to do that.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish I would have taken minimum four to six months

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: after finishing to like read through everything,

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: have conversations with myself

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: about finding clarity about what I'm willing to sacrifice,

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: what I'm willing to change for an in agent

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: versus what I really wanna keep.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I fired away immediately.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I literally finished the day before

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and the next day I was like,

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I Googled top agents

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and just sent it out like a total idiot.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even have a proper query letter.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And a few of them very kindly replied

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and said like, there's something here.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you open to a conversation about the format?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We could see this being tough to sell

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and so that was kind of the main,

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of the response

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and I felt really shell shocked

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's when it all hit me

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: of like, I'm so in over my head here.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I'm willing to change yet.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wrote people back saying, thank you so much.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm gonna need some time to think through this.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I will reach back out

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're still considering this.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I took the whole summer

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and this was right, this was in April.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a month after pandemic had started in 2020.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of things were changing for everybody.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I needed a lot of mental space

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: to kind of reconfigure my life and my family's life

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and I took that summer to think through a lot of it.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And then in August,

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I was getting ready to teach in person,

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: which was really scary during the pandemic

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and I got an email to my school inbox

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's my now agent and she was saying,

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I got this from someone else who passed on it

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and I really love it.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have an agent yet?

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to talk to you.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And she was the only one

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that was not really afraid of the form at all.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: She was just like, let's go.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a universal story,

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: just told in a different way.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we can sell it.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think weird and experimental fiction

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely has a place in traditional publishing

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and I loved her attitude

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's like the attitude I had

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: when writing the book.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I just had to honestly not listen to anyone else's voice

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because if I did,

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: there was no way I would have written this book.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I had to just go off my own,

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: develop my own voice and then listen to it

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and believe in it and just believe every day.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Even if it doesn't sell,

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I needed to get this out of me

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: because I love my grandmother

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and I wanted to just get this out of me.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if it sells, that's amazing.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And if not, I will work on book number two.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So then my agent now, her name is Mariah.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: She was amazing and I told her,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: no, I don't have an agent.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: No one really wanted this.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to talk to you.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then that's how we are here.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I didn't call it weird.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: The first word that came to me,

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: no, no, no, but like I think it's interesting

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because like someone else calls it weird.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: The first word that came to mind was strange

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but I changed it to different.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like naming something

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that isn't seen often as weird or strange,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it takes away from the craft

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that was still required.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So even though it was experimental,

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a better word and different,

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it's still a story well told.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you all have difficulty with publishers,

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: editors understanding the form

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe wanting to change it

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: or standardize it in ways that you didn't want to do?

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, totally.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that was definitely feedback

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that came back from I'm sure a handful of editors.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So my agent, Mariah, pitched it to too many editors

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and we had a role where she would just

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: tell me only the good news.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: She was like, I'll give you a negative news

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: if it seems to be a common theme,

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: like hey, everyone's coming back saying

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: this character is not really hitting,

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: can we rework her?

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: She's like, otherwise I will just,

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't need to hear that.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll let you know who's excited about the book.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm sure that happened.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: In the end, there were four editors

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: who were excited about it and wanted to talk to me.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I find with Oye,

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's either for you or it's not.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So either people really love it

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: or they just are not interested.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm very lucky that there was a few people

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that were interested and the editor

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that we ultimately sold to never once questioned the form.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: She just loved it and celebrated it

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and thought it had amazing prose

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and knew it wasn't gonna be for everybody.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So I liked the way she was approaching it.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, of course, I mean,

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think any rational person would probably ask me,

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: did you ever consider writing this not on the phone?

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And the answer is yes, I tried it many times.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanna ask,

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: this is really a personal question for me at this point

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: as I'm getting ready to go into a third round of edits

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that I'm not happy about

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're gonna have to edit that out.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't tell you how happy I'm not,

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to not be in that position.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It was, I would be in the pits,

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the trenches, it was tough.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the third round, you are on empty.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You have no idea.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But back to you, my question is,

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: once it got into an editor's hands

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that understood and championed it,

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: you spoke before about having to take the book

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: off of submission from agents

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and to sit with feedback about what you were

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and weren't willing to change.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: What did that look like for you after the deal

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: in really putting together this product for publication

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: where you may have to make concessions?

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: How did you deal with that and what were they?

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it was important for me to have clarity

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: on what my bottom line was

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and I knew I would never take Luciana off the phone.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a non-negotiable.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I would never include another chapter

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of someone else talking

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or her off the phone.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to preserve the format

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and I wanted to see it through

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: because it was a challenge

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and for me, I didn't know if I could tell a story

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: of what a girl would organically say to her sister

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: while still moving the plot forward,

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: keeping it compelling, including other characters,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: creating a whole world.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted to say that you can do it.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why, I don't know who I was fighting for

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: but I wanted to say you can do it

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and you don't need to include anyone else talking.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was important to me.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, Luciana's arc,

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want to romanticize it.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want her to have too big of a change

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or coming-of-age moment.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't feel authentic to her.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It felt almost,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted her to land at the end,

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: confident in the possibility of changing her life,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: not necessarily changing her life.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And then same thing with Awe,

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want to tone her down ever.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't want to ever reel her in.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think those were my three things

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and outside of that,

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that as the writer,

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: we can get tunnel vision and miss a lot.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was totally open and welcomed a lot of feedback

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: from my editor of like,

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: what her thoughts were, how she was reading it,

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: how can we bring in as many readers to the story

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: as possible while still staying true

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to the heart of the story?

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was always my goal because,

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I am publishing this book for me, of course,

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but also I want to share the story.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So if there's a technique they want to offer me

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that brings more readers in while not sacrificing,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm always gonna wanna be open to that.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was always kind of a dance

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: as long as I kept my three things close to my chest.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so now Oye is here.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the publicists at the publisher reached out to me

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and was like, you've got to read this book.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And sending me notes, her bottom line was like,

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: she really had to fight for it.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like that was something

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that you faced a lot in your journey to publication.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You had to fight for your voice of Luchiana and Awe

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way that it came.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And being on the phone, you had to fight

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: for the right agent and then for the right editor

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to understand it.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then even in that process,

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you had to fight and really stand

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: on your non-negotiables.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What does it mean to you to now have this book out?

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like you said, it's been almost six years

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: since I first started putting pen to page on this.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So it feels surreal, of course.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And then on the other hand,

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: it feels like the most natural thing in the world

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: because you worked on something every single day for so long.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, this feels like the normal,

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope it comes out into the world.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just like last night,

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: a girl made a TikTok about it and how she felt.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It spoke to Olivia Rodrigo lyrics

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: in one of her songs, Brutal.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And that, I didn't cry, but I wanted to

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because I thought that's exactly it.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I listened to Olivia Rodrigo writing so much of this

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was just like, whoa, someone is getting it.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And just having her get that one line felt everything.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's probably gonna be really cool to feel.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, I'm probably not ready for the fact

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that like so many people are going to love my grandmother

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and meet her and that I'm very excited about.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I messaged you persistently as I was reading

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was like, I love this woman.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I love them all so much.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you can get to read a little bit from Oye

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we can dive deep into the conversation

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: about what is happening in this story

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and get to the book.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I would love to.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Oye by Melissa Mogollon is a novel of phone calls

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: all one-sided, all from 17 year old Luciana Dominguez

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: to her older sister Mari who was away at college.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Their conversations cover the concern

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: of evacuating for a hurricane without their grandmother

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to a sudden diagnosis that leaves the family reeling

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and Luciana more and more desperate to be seen,

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: heard and most of all understood.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's Melissa.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the first chapter titled Pasame el Telefono.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe you called me six times

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: for this today Mari.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Oye is going to be fine.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Whether she evacuates or she stays.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: She's like an immortal Pokemon.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And you left me a voicemail?

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I just saw a notification.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You were such a closeted boomer.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, now that I know you're alive,

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna need a second to breathe.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you had been kidnapped

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and the police were calling me to demand some answers

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: since you have me saved as a psychopath in your phone.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, mom told me you still haven't changed that

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: which is not only rude by the way, but also impractical.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you thought about that?

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: What's gonna happen

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: when you have an actual emergency one day?

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna be like on your last breath

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: begging for help and the cops will be able to reach me

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because my phone is gonna be locked away

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and Mrs. Nelson's desk again for reading during class.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Luciana Dominguez, is that your phone?

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, give it.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You can get it from me at the end of class.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, it's Maddie?

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: This fucking bitch.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Luciana!

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, it's just my sister.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It was on loud because no one ever calls me dude.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So imagine my surprise when I get my phone back

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and see six missed calls thinking that you're either dead

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or I'm being framed just to call back

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and get your unbearable high pitched voice on the line

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: screaming about your grandmother.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's really all or nothing with you, huh?

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I hadn't heard a peep out of you

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: since you went back to school.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Nope.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Not a single word when I texted you being vulnerable

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: asking if it was weird that I was starting my senior year

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but was still scared of mom.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I shouldn't be this afraid, but her eyes are so scary.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that normal?

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Should I feel more confident?

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Or during the important and personal milestone

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of Rihanna launching her Fenty Beauty line last week.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Ignore my texts about mom, I'm over it.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you send me $30 though?

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's urgent.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And now here you are,

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: blowing up my phone while I'm trying to prepare

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: for a hurricane along with the underwhelming beginning

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: of my impending adulthood.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll stop there.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so much of like the first few chapters

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: is such a Florida story about whether or not

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to evacuate for a hurricane, where do you go?

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you do?

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's coming with you?

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's not coming with you?

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Namely in this case, Abway is like, I'm not going.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And then always watching the weather

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to see where the storm is going.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was doing a hurricane Irma, right?

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Irma.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: In 2017.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Which I was in Jacksonville for,

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: which I worked when I was at the television station

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: where I had a former career as a TV producer.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was all so very familiar.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You were there.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I was there.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like reading it, it was familiar,

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: but told in a way that was completely different.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause you always wonder about,

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: well, who are these people that don't evacuate

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: or who are these people that like make it into like,

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, a vacation?

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Why was that?

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that always the opening and why was that the opening?

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It was always the opening.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for two reasons.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: One, I really loved the idea of like bringing

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in the reader immediately almost to a moving vehicle.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And in this case, literally they're getting on the road

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and evacuating.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I love books that are like that.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of my writing is like that

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it's what I enjoy when it's like,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you're meeting the reading, you're like, get in,

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: get in, we're driving, get in, we're moving.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I liked having readers worry about this thing

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that's coming that ends up not being really

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: what they need to be worried about at all,

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: which I don't think is a rare technique at all.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of books utilize that.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I also like the visual of them getting on the road

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and running from something.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's mirrored a lot in the book

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02]: with their emotional approach to a lot of their problems.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But also more importantly, before I introduce

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of the real problem of the book,

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the news that they get soon after,

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted readers to meet these characters

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and see how they handle conflict or situation differently

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to kind of get to know their personality

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and see how they react differently

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: before we brought in kind of a serious emotional trauma

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that they were gonna deal with.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I wanted it to be almost like a contrast,

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: like something, the baseline that they could hold to saying,

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: well, they reacted to this this way,

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but now that we have this news,

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: this is how they're reacting.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a way, I think, for me

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to allow readers to meet the characters very quickly

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and very intensely before we threw them

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: in a whole different way.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the ways you do that, for me anyway,

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: is describing Abwe.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you say on page 10,

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: so if she wants to buoy above water

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: with her fake titties and ass when the hurricane hits,

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that's fine.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure she has her reasons.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, wait, what?

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Was like, first of all, Abwe must be fine as hell.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like she's got the fake boobs,

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: she's got, you know, the BBL.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: She's over concerned with her looks,

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: her eyeshadows.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the eyeshadows, the nail polish, the hair.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She cannot stand to not be beautiful.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, so much of the book,

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: spoiler alert for anyone who has not read the book,

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: we have to go here.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But so much of the book is focusing on her mortality

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and, you know, her aging and her health

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and getting sick and not really being able

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: to do the things that she used to do

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in reckoning with her life.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Why was that important to you to explore

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: what it's like for someone who is obsessed with their looks

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to have to come to reckoning with the fact

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, this is only temporary?

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, wow, heavy.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it's absolutely heartbreaking.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I almost wanted to work at the trauma in reverse.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, I want them to meet her

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: as the present day product of so much of her life

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and decisions and experiences.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is her trying to take full control

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: by being beautiful.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, being beautiful is her power.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: She takes it very seriously and she's really good at it,

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, and almost to the point of absurdity,

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she's very absurd.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was, I wanted you to meet this human being

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: who a lot of her self-value rested

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: on how she felt about herself,

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: not what other people thought of her.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And being beautiful was powerful to her

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and made her feel strong and different.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was her way of pushing back

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: against a lot of maybe the culture that she saw around her.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And so then through the book, you know, we meet her

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we work towards the end.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We unravel a lot of, you know,

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe why she is the way she is

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and how she's gonna lose

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: the one thing that really matters

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: which is her body and her looks.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was important to me

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: because that is so much of the heartbreak of the book

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and the obsession and focus on physical appearance

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: for better or for worse

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and how you move through the world.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Luciana has like an almost reverse journey

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: where we meet her very not confident in how she looks

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and not even liking how she looks.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we work towards her taking more control

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: over that and having that help her feel good

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in the same way that I think

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Aweid does that her whole life.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we meet her as a very confident, vibrant woman.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like the foil between those two

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: is also muddied a lot by Luciana's mother

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: who is always on her about what she's eating

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and her appearance and all these things.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Luciana is not necessarily struggling

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: with her sexuality and identity,

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but she's come out,

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but then she's like immediately put back in the closet

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: by her own family. She's like a purgatory.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's like they know,

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but like we don't talk about it.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like all of that is happening

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and when it comes toward the end of the book

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: after we've unraveled everybody's story,

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm jumping and not trying to give anything away

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's a point where Aweid says to her,

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I've always known.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, she knows.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And they had to put the book down

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and walk away because I was about to cry

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like, no, we are not crying.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: She knows.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like she's always known.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet she was still so accepting of her granddaughter

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and the other line that gutted me

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: is toward the end of the book where she was like,

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I would stay for you.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I would continue living

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and doing everything that I could just for you.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And just as Luciana had this very closeness

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: with her grandmother,

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: her grandmother felt that same relationship

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and yet they both had to like give a little

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to understand the other.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Seeing as how you were writing without a plan,

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanna ask if that was intentional

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but I feel like the answer is no.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You got it.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, such a beautiful way to put it.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, you're gonna make me cry.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So beautiful.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: No, so I'm so glad you're asking about that

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: because that actually, it was not intentional

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and I struggled with that

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because it felt it wouldn't do their relationship justice

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: if I didn't acknowledge that by then

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: because that was not originally in there.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I thought, is this too like romantic cliche?

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the grandmother being like,

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I've always known by the way I didn't care.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wanted to figure out a way

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that that felt authentic to their conversation

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but it didn't feel right to end the book

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: without having them have a moment

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because I wanted to give that to Luciana.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted her to feel that by the end.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I thought, would that have changed

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: any of Awe's actions or her dialogue

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: throughout the story?

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought about that for a while

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and I ultimately landed on, I don't think so

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: because Awe I think really was taking Luciana's lead

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and she would have never said something

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: if she didn't feel Luciana was ready

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: but she probably would have wanted to share

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: before anything happened by the end of the novel to her

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that she does love her and that she's,

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it's almost like, it's not even an issue.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of how I felt her approach.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: She was like, I know, and it doesn't matter.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you have so many other things to worry about?

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Go figure yourself out, like who cares?

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So the novel reads like a telenovela.

[00:33:03] Yes.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I haven't watched many of them

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: except for like in my college Spanish class

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: we watched a few

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: but it reads like a telenovela

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and you had this like long expansive backstory in Columbia

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: about Awe and her family and their money

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of the things.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Were you like poking fun at that

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and putting it in the book form

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: to give Awe this very expansive backstory?

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and no because I think so many of, you know

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: our stories and experiences and lives

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: in our Latino culture are so absurd

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and telenovela level worthy of like secrets and fights.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like even just everyday conversations I have

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: with my brothers or my cousins or my aunts

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: or my uncles or my friends

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm just like, take a deep breath.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So it feels like my whole life I was perplexed

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: by the fact of like a lot of everyday stuff

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: feels absurd to other people

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that is just like the norm in our culture.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was like for better or for worse

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: this is her true story.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, probably to some people it feels crazy

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and to other days it's a regular day in Columbia.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so like, yeah, that wasn't even up to me.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I think every reader will have a different take on that

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but I did wanna deliver as like

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the thing that happens in real life

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and other parts of the world and in our world a lot

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and even here in the US and Florida

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's Luciana's world who, you know

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: never was born in Columbia

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and we don't see her go to Columbia in this book.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And so she's still dealing with the aftermath

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: of pretty absurd events that happened

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: many decades before her.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so in the end I realized, oh my gosh

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: this is totally a telenovela

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and then a lot of people were reading it

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're like, it reminds me of Jane the Virgin

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and like how dramatic and you know

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: they use a lot of, they play with the trope

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of like they're kind of pushing back on the trope

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: in Jane the Virgin which I love and adore.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was kind of just a fun product

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02]: of writing the story.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it's so fun when other people read it

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and tell you and you're like, oh wow, okay, no, yeah

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02]: this is pretty ridiculous.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It was totally normalized in my imagination

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but it is pretty crazy.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a little wild but I think what stands out to me

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: is the strength of some of the women, not all of them

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: especially not Aboi's mother

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but a lot of the other women

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: even in the absurdity of their situations

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to know themselves in a way that allowed them

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to free themselves.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is something that I truly, truly appreciated

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00]: from the novel.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But what do you want readers to take from it?

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that most readers see a version of themselves

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in Luciana at least or their coming of age journey

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you know how they felt frustrated

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: or I hope it reminds them of things

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that maybe they were frustrated with

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that they felt they had no control over as a teenager

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: or as a young adult and that rage

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that just like bubbles inside you

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: until you just can't take it anymore.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I do feel like Oya is like Luciana's

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: one final primal scream before adulthood

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: where she's just like,

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not wanna deal with this.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: This does not feel mine.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm being handed this thing that feels impossible

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: an impossible task and how do I do this all

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: while graduating and figuring out who I am?

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I hope that they're proud of her

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and rooting for her by the end

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: at the choices she made.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that they wanna call their own grandmother.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love nothing more if every person comes

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and tells me a story about their own grandmother

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: or their own aunt or uncle or whoever it is

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know so special and feels like a giant to them.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love that if they felt like

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: they wanted to pick up the phone

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and go ahead and call their chosen

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: or blood family after this.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so now I wanna switch

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to a speed round in a game before

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I let you go for the afternoon.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: What is your favorite book?

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have like an all time favorite book.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely have books that I love

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: right now in the moment.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But when I think of Oye,

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of this book called A Map of Home

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: by Ronda Giroir which I felt ignited in me

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: a desire to wanna capture a young girl's rage and heart.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's about a young girl's kind of immigration story

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: from different parts and her family

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and being first generation, second generation.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that's a lovely book

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that everyone should read.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, who is your favorite author?

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: My honest answer is that it used to be Junot Diaz

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and so I'm still struggling after a lot of stuff

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: about him came out to know what that means for me.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But right now, I mean, there's Jamil Khoshy Jan.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope I'm saying that right.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: He was a classmate of mine at Iowa

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and he has two books out.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: He is probably one of the most creative

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and talented writers I've ever met.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: There's also Donnie Walton

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: who wrote Final Revival of Opal.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, you know Donnie, yeah.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: She was really inspiring for me in grad school.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: She also did an oral history

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and her characters were so alive.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I would cry reading them.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Kylie Reid with Such a Fun Age and Come and Get It,

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: also just like phenomenal characterization

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and then a whole bunch more,

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but those are who's kind of in my present sphere

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that I think about when I get inspired.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Shout out to Donnie, friend of the podcast.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: What is your favorite TV show?

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's on Amazon Prime and it's called Deadlock,

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: D-E-A-D-L-O-C-H.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's I think Australian or from New Zealand

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's about two detectives in this small island

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're trying to solve a mystery

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: but their characters are written so incredibly

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and some of the best writing I've seen a long time.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a funny comedy that also deals with a murder.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Who is your favorite artist?

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously Rihanna, we all know I love her

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and SZA, I mean, I love Frank Ocean.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love Brittany Howard from Alabama Shake.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: She's a huge one for me.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I love Chapel Rowan right now.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: She's all the rage so that's who I'm listening to.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If Oye were adapted to a telenovela,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: who would you want to play Abue and Luciana?

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually do have the answer to this

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think about it a lot.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: If Olivia Rodrigo could look a little younger,

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, but if her hair was a little shorter,

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: she was a little thicker, she could play Luciana.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Alexa Demi from Euphoria could play Maddie.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02]: She plays Maddie in Euphoria.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love her to play Maddie.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Abue, I truly have no idea

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but if Salma Hayek could somehow play an older woman,

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I could kind of see that just like physically,

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they kind of come together.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I saw her in the latest Magic Mike

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and I kept thinking she would kill it as always.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I can see that.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And Salma Hayek is built like Abue is.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I support this.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: If money were no object, where would you go?

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: What would you do and where would you live?

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I would live here in Rhode Island

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: where I currently live but I would have a lot of land.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to buy a farm and I would still teach.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I would just, I work currently at a high school.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I would go lower hours.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to teach creative writing part-time

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and then have more time to write

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and then work with animals and nature on the farm

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: somehow.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So hopefully in like 10 years I'm there.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Name three things on your bucket list.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Write a second book.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Spend more time with my dog this summer

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: who I feel like I have not paid attention to her

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: at all with so much going on.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's only got a hopefully,

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: she's got a handful of years left

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but I really wanna enjoy her last ones.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm gonna throw travel on there

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: just because I feel as much as I'm so tired

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and feel like there's no time,

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to go see more places and meet more people.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, actually this is a real bucket item.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to get paid to go road trip

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or really dig into some random small town in the country

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and just interview a lot of locals and townies

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and then form some sort of story around something there.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I've always wanted to do that.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like a documentary in the making.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You run with that.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: What is your hidden talent?

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not presently doing it

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but I got really into weightlifting

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: while I was writing Oye.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's very shocking for everybody.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And for me too,

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not the most physically capable person

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: nor is it a passion or interest of mine

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but it just was so random that it helped.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It was absurd almost like Oye in a way

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and feeling physically strong

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: during those final months of editing

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: really helped me push through

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like the harder mental days.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So people are always shocked

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that I was actually pretty good.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty strong.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I can lift a lot of my legs and arms.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: What brings you joy?

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I love working with youth.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I love teaching high school.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I do love my high schoolers.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I love animals and I love people.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: The best part about this phase of Oye

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is getting to do my second love

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: which is like talking to people.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been so fun to do this.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And what brings you peace?

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Green, a lot of grass, silence,

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: getting to just sit in nature

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and read brings me a lot of peace.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so our game is called

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Rewriting the Classics.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Classic is however you define it.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Name one book you wished you would have written.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't read this in a long time.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know how it aged.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be extremely problematic, I don't know.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But Catch 22 by Joseph Heller.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I was enthralled by Yasserian's voice,

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the protagonist's voice.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I loved that he was enlisted in war

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and didn't understand why people

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: were quote like trying to kill him.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that he was,

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was hilarious

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that he was taking war personally

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in the sense of for some reason

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: he didn't realize that part of war would happen

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: when he enlisted in war.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was trying to get out every second he could.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So he was trying to figure out a way to con the rule

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: which is the Catch 22.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, wish I would have written that one.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, name one book

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: where you want to change the ending

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and how would you do it?

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I read a book recently called

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Your Driver is Waiting by Priya Gans.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It's right here.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The ending, I totally understand why the author did it.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And in my like wildest fantasy,

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I would have had the main character

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: have a really, really good moment of justice

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: with the girl who wronged her.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I really would have had her really go in

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: like lean all into the ending.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and then my messy question.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Name a book that you think is overrated

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: or overtaught and why?

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This would require me to read the classics

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: which I don't because I don't enjoy them

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but I will say I got a lot of books

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that are contemporary books that I feel are overhyped

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but one that I was conned by recently

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and I did enjoy a lot of it.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So this doesn't really fill the answer to the question

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but Good Material by Dolly Alderton.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen it everywhere and I picked it up

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and I liked the first page.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So I bought it and I read it

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I realized, wait a second,

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: like why did I just sign up

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to hear a man complain for 300 pages?

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't need that.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't need to hear a man complain for 300 pages.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize the voice was a man

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: until like a few pages in

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was like, oh no, no, no.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I would have not bought this.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Still good Dolly, thank you.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, and so my final question for you today.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: When you are dead and gone among the ancestors,

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: what would you like someone to write

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_00]: about the legacy of words and work

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that you've left behind?

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that hopefully I always encouraged young people

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: or young children to cultivate their own voice

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and listen to it and act on it

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's what I was trying to get Usana

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to do the whole time.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Just take a minute and think about who she is

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and then kind of build on that

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of what the world is telling her to be.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Big thank you to Melissa Mogollon

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: for being here today on Black and Published.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you check out Melissa's debut novel,

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Oye, out now from Hogarth.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're not following Melissa,

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: check her out on the socials.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She's at Mel Mogollon on Twitter

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and Melissa Mogollon on Instagram.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And Mogollon is spelled M-O-G-O-L-L-O-N.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That's our show for the week.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: If you liked this episode

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and want more Black and Published,

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: head to our Instagram page.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's at Black and Published

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's B-L-K and Published.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: There I've posted a bonus clip

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: from my interview with Melissa

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: about what she's working on next.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you check it out

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll holler at y'all next week

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: when our guest will be Maura Cheeks,

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: author of the novel, Acts of Forgiveness.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember talking to my first agent

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time in 2019

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and sharing the idea for the book

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was like, oh wow, this is different.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was like very,

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it was still very like speculative

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think, you know,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the murders of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery,

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: all of that hadn't happened

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: when I first started writing the book.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the concept of reparations

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: was still very abstract,

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think to certain people.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so when I was writing the book Dorn 2020,

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it was easier to have a conversation about reparations.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That's next week on Black and Published.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll talk to you then.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Peace.