Family Business with Bernice L. McFadden

[00:00:00] It was devastating for me because I had two homes, I had a car, I had a daughter in college, and the money just disappeared and the market crashed. It was really a terrible time. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:27] Today's guest is Bernice L. McFadden, the author of several award-winning historical fiction novels. She's out today with her memoir, First Born Girls. It's a book that weaves the story of her road to publication with her debut novel, Sugar, with the story of the women in her family and what they endured.

[00:00:47] It was important to me to honor them by actually standing ten toes down in the gift that I knew I was born with. In honoring her family through the pages of First Born Girls, Ms. Bernice also coined a new word. How she came to call her dearly departed loved ones angel sisters and what it means to be loved, guided, and protected by them.

[00:01:14] Plus, the reason she says she learned the most about the publishing industry in the time she was dropped from a major publisher and went indie. And, after acknowledging that she started writing her memoir as an angry Black woman, how she's feeling five years later now that it's out. That and more is next when Black & Published continues.

[00:01:50] Ms. Bernice, my very first question for you is, when did you know that you were a writer? I knew that I was a writer at the age of nine. I was a big reader. And I had been sketching little stories for myself. But I knew I was a writer when I wrote a short story, maybe three pages, and had my mother read it.

[00:02:17] You tell this story in the book. And my mother also forbid me to read her Jackie Collins novels. I could read anything in the house except the Jackie Collins and the Terry McMillan. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yes, you were very disturbed. But in telling that story in First Born Girls, you do ask, you know, after all the salacious details that you put in the story at nine, was the story good?

[00:02:45] What did your mother's validation do for you that helped you solidify that you wanted to continue to pursue writing no matter what? In my memoir, I talk about her telling me never to go back into her underwear drawer where she had those salacious books hidden. But the fact that she did not move them, hide them elsewhere, you know, expressed something different to me. Like, she's like, as long as I don't know about it, go ahead and read it.

[00:03:15] Also, my mother, you know, she only had, I think it was a 10th grade education. She could not read well. And that's one of the things she really, really instilled in her children. She really wanted to be a big reader. Now she is. And so she encouraged me throughout my childhood to read. And you talk about how reading was so fundamental for you, no matter where you were or what you were doing.

[00:03:44] And with everything that you cover in the memoir about your home life, did you find that reading was your safe place, not just an escape? It was both of those things. It was an escape and it was my safe place. I could open up a book and it could transport me away from my very difficult life. And I still love that. I could just open up a book and everything disappears. So that was really very important to me then.

[00:04:14] It's very important to me now. I'm doing a lot of reading. I'll be doing a lot of reading with this new administration. So I've been reading nonstop since November. What was it? The seventh, whatever day that was. Yes. Um, you have an, I want to say non-traditional, but I recognize that there is no traditional path to publishing with my own journey and just over the course of doing this podcast.

[00:04:41] But I will use that word for my limitations of language in this moment. And as when you started writing, even when you were not succeeding in school or dropping out for other reasons, what was it that kept you going back to the page? No matter what, like, what is that compulsion for you? Deep inside of me, I knew that this was supposed to be my life. I knew I'm supposed to be writing.

[00:05:11] I'm supposed to be an author. So I, that's why I kept going back to the page and the story kept pulling me back. The story is like, you know, don't abandon me. We're supposed to be together. Right. That's why I kept returning. That's why I still go back. I mean, it's easy now for me to just sit back and not write. Right. I have a steady paycheck. A lot of times it's the, it's the hunger, right? I got to get that next contract because I got rent to pay mortgage, whatever.

[00:05:40] And I don't have to do it for money anymore. I do it because it's a part of who I am. The memoir tells the story of you getting ready to publish your debut novel sugar. What was it about sugar specifically that, or what did she say to you specifically that kept you returning and listening to her when you had so many other stories that you could run off with?

[00:06:04] Sugar came about around the same time that I became pregnant with my daughter. They're intertwined. And in fact, the, the most recent edition of sugar, the classic edition, that painting looks very much like my daughter or like she did when she was a teenager. And so that was the first story that spoke directly to me.

[00:06:33] Right. Because it was speaking from inside of me. The other stories I was trying to put down on paper, the life that I was experiencing and other people's lives and just being observant. But this story, sugar, she was in my DNA. What does that mean? She was in your DNA. She was a part of me. She probably had always been a part of me. You know, I believe in blood memory.

[00:07:01] I understand that we can carry up to 14 generations of DNA in our bodies. And so sometimes there's something that you know, and you just, you just know it and you don't know how you know it. And no one taught you. I feel the same way with my writing. It's just a part of me. I didn't take creative writing classes to learn how to write. I learned how to write by reading and writing.

[00:07:26] And the first time I did take a creative writing class, I was already a grown woman, mid twenties, when I went back to college. And so that was a revelation too. And I think I talk about this in the book, that my creative writing professor is the one who affirmed for me that I was a writer. She read my stuff and this woman had published novels and short stories and plays.

[00:07:54] And so this person said, you can write. I don't know why you're not published. And I was off and running from that point. And you say late in the memoir around page 277, that there's a power of knowing your truth and your history. What has been your power in knowing who you are from pretty much the beginning of your life? Oh, you know, there's that quote to know where you're going. You have to know where you come from.

[00:08:22] And that's been so important to me. History shows up in all of my novels. I'm fascinated by history. I'm fascinated by the patterns that we see in history. And so I knew that just from my genealogy research, I was very clear on the trials and tribulations that my foremothers had gone through.

[00:08:48] And I was also aware that many of them were artists in their own right. But because of the times, they couldn't just quit their job and paint or quit their job and write like I did. Because that just was unheard of in black communities for the most part.

[00:09:07] And so it was important to me to honor them by actually standing 10 toes down in the gift that I knew I was born with. That's beautiful. And firstborn girls, you bring us right up to the point where you get that call from who becomes your very first agent.

[00:09:31] I want to go beyond that because I know getting the agent for a lot of writers who are listening is, you know, like it's that very first hurdle. But there's so much that comes after that. What was your publishing process like coming after, you know, that renaissance in the 90s of Toni Morrison and Terry McMillan and Alice Walker to being told there's not really a market for the kinds of stories you were telling.

[00:09:58] I assume that at that point, urban fiction had taken off to someone then taking a chance on you and your novel that is exploring history and is a more literary novel like that of the people who you enjoyed reading, which were the Toni Morrison's and the Alice Walker's and the J. California Cooper's and so many more. It was wonderful for the first few years. It was wonderful. You know, I did all the things. I went on tour. I had lovely meetings. I met fabulous authors.

[00:10:27] I met these authors, which kind of blew my mind because I met these authors that I had been reading. And then we became friends. And I was like, I have her number in my phone. So it was wonderful until it wasn't. It's a numbers game, right? Like publishing is an industry. It's a business. And my numbers weren't up to par. So I was told. And then Dutton let me go.

[00:10:57] But when that happened, it was devastating for me because I had two homes. I had a car. I had a daughter in college. And the money just disappeared. And the market crashed. That's the other thing. So it was really, it was really a terrible time. But I went from Dutton to Akashic Books, which is an independent publisher in Brooklyn.

[00:11:24] And when I tell you, that was probably one of the best decisions that I made because I was able to just write without thinking about the money because the money was very small. So now I'm just concentrating on the work. And they gave me a safe space to work in.

[00:11:52] They were very hands-on. They were very responsive. The worst thing you could do to me is lie to me. And so there were things that were being kept from me in big publishing that Akashic shared with me. Like, when I would ask, how come you can't put my books in the big box stores? Like, I see these novels in the big box stores.

[00:12:18] And I had asked Dutton this question back in the early 2000s. And I would never get a direct or truthful answer. And Johnny, who is the owner of Akashic Books, he was like, well, it's pay to play. That costs a lot of money. Like, you have to write a check for that. Oh, I didn't know that. So the reason why I wasn't told that is from the big publishers because, well, then that would cause some problems. Because I know you're writing this check for A, B, and C.

[00:12:48] And I feel like I deserve that. But so I learned a lot about publishing, being with Akashic, that I did not learn during the first part of my career. And so now I'm back with Dutton, right? And I'm older and I'm wiser and I understand the game. So I'm not going to upset myself because I'm clear. I'm clear on how that works.

[00:13:11] Going to Akashic after being with a big publisher, and you say that was your greatest learning experience about the business of publishing. What did that do for you creatively? Since you knew the advance check is going to be small, the royalties might be small, but I can still write my stories. The most significant thing was the people at Akashic, they have a different sort of vision.

[00:13:39] They want to make money, obviously, right? But they also want to support and birth stories into the world and support those stories that big publishing might overlook. Small publishing is very important for writers. There are a lot of authors who publish with independents.

[00:14:04] And while they are with these indie publishing houses, they're building their portfolio. They're honing their craft. Perfect example, Percival Everett. He was with a small publisher compared to the big ones, right? For many, many years. And now, look, he has a National Book Award with James. So, I mean, I think one hand washes the other.

[00:14:30] I'm glad that I've had the experience with a small publisher and a big publisher. And so, with that said, I'm going to be a little selfish here and ask your opinion on how do you think people who self-publish and then venture into big publishing, do you think it has that same one hand wash and the other where you're able to build your portfolio and hone your craft and your skill until you get to where it is that you ultimately may have always wanted to be?

[00:14:59] I think it should work that way, right? Everybody wants that big deal. But if you get a million-dollar deal, first book, and it does marginally well, now it's time for book number two. You might not get that million dollars again, right? And imagine what that does to your psyche, to your soul. It's crushing, right?

[00:15:26] So, if you start at the top, where else are you going? Down. That's just the way it works. That's science. But slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. Thank you. Because I've been in the place where I'm like, I want the big deal. I want the big deal. I want the big deal. I know other people are there too. And so, it helps to hear from writers with experience about why it's not good to start there versus just me getting on my soapbox. Yeah.

[00:15:56] Yeah. But I would also say if you're offered the big deal, take it. Oh, take the money. Take the money and run. Absolutely. Take the money. With that said then, how have over the course of your career and all that you've experienced, have you seen the publishing industry change in good ways and maybe necessarily in bad ones?

[00:16:20] I think possibly that they, and I'm only speaking for the Black community, that they're actually allowing, I feel like I shouldn't be using that word, but allowing Black writers to write across genres, right? And supporting those stories. 20, 30 years ago, they wanted us all to write the same thing.

[00:16:48] Literary fiction, we already got Toni Morrison. We got our Black. We don't need you. So, I feel like it's expanding. And so, that's the good thing. So then, with that said, talking about the industry and your experiences, can you read something from Firstborn Girls? And we can talk more about the book because I know we're talking about the writing, but the book is about so much more. Firstborn Girls by Bernice L. McFadden tells the story of both sides of Miss Bernice's family.

[00:17:18] From the tumultuous and often violent relationships she witnessed at home in New York, to the solace she found on the sandy shores of Barbados with extended family. And the time she cheated death that set her on a path of manifesting the life of her dreams. Here's Bernice. I'll just read a few paragraphs from the opening.

[00:17:42] The first thing I want to tell you is that on September 27, 1967, I died. I was two years and one day old. Two days before my death, my mother Vivian and I flew from New York to Cleveland, Ohio, to visit James Forrest and his wife, Julia. I was still a little bald-headed toddler, and my mother was 24 years old with cover girl good looks.

[00:18:10] When Vivian was a child, her mother, Thelma, had been romantically involved in a relationship with James Forrest that was as passionate as it was violent. It was a vicious cycle, one that Vivian would relive in her own marriage. However, by 1967, James and Thelma's turbulent history was like water under the bridge.

[00:18:35] The former lovers were friendly now, telephoning each other on birthdays and holidays to share news about some person they both knew who'd hit the number, got married, had a baby, gone to jail, or died. I suppose they stayed connected because they had history. History, if you don't know, is a hard thing to shake because it's as bonding as glue.

[00:19:03] They'd stayed connected because of their visit history, but also because James had been like a father to Vivian, who had never had one. When James learned that Vivian had married and had had a child, he sent for the two of us to come to Cleveland so that he could wrap his arms around us both. Bring that baby up here so I could smell her head.

[00:19:27] That's how I ended up celebrating my second birthday in Cleveland, Ohio, with Thelma's old flame, his wife, and my mother. On the afternoon of the 26th, everyone gathered around the white Formica kitchen table. I was seated in Vivian's lap, dressed in a pink frilly dress and a colorful party hat.

[00:19:48] After they sang Happy Birthday, Vivian held me a safe distance from the flame atop the white candle shaped in the form of the number two. Blow, Bernice, blow. Blow, the flame buckled and died, and then I plunged my hands into the cake and shoveled the creamy sweetness into my mouth. There was a lot of joy in that room, but there was sadness too. We should have been celebrating at home with my father, Robert, as a family.

[00:20:17] I suspect that our trip to Cleveland was more than just a visit to catch up with old friends and family. I suspect this was one of my mother's early prison breaks. In writing your memoir, you have called your parents and grandparents and all of your kinfolk by their first name without the honorific of mama or grandma or aunt.

[00:20:44] Knowing and having writing about the very hard parts of your life, did you do that to kind of like break character so that you can write it in a way where you had some distance from it? Absolutely. That's exactly why I did it. You know, I've been writing about my family for years.

[00:21:01] If you are familiar with my novels, a lot of characters, incidents, events show up in my memoir because I'm always writing about my people. And I have many, many iterations of this memoir. Something that was supposed to take me, I think, two years to write took me four and a half years to write.

[00:21:27] And that's because I was writing it like mama and grandma and daddy. And I was struggling. And I was like, I have to put a wall between me and the story else I'm not going to get through it. And so that's exactly why you are 100% correct. I had to create distance. So they have to be characters. You said writing the book was supposed to take two years. It took you four. But you started this memoir during the pandemic.

[00:21:57] Did you plan to do that or did that just like happen to you? It just happened. I was actually working on a novel. I had about 13,000 words of this novel. Pandemic hits. I'm home with my mom in Brooklyn. Everything is crazy. Ambulances every night. And I'm like, this is the end.

[00:22:16] And I started thinking about, well, I have so many cousins that I've not seen in years because even before the pandemic, everybody just, you know, hangs out on Facebook together. It's very weird. That's not how I was raised, but that's how it is now. And I was like, we have all of these young cousins in the family who don't really know the history.

[00:22:40] Because the way I learned the history is because I was raised with my cousins and my great aunts and my grandmother and grandparents. And one of the things we did was sit around the table and tell stories. Right? And so these stories I heard over and over and over and over again. And that's what oral history is. And you pass it down and you pass it down and you pass it down.

[00:23:06] And so I was like, I need to write this down because we're not gathering and talking anymore. And this history is important. We need to know where we come from. And that's how the memoir came to be. Over the course of this book, you talked about it online and you have a note in the book as well about you created a new word. Where did Angel Sester come from? So I'm writing the memoir.

[00:23:32] Depending on what I'm working on, I'll go back, go back, go back and, you know, rewrite and edit. But I was just going forward. And when I finally stopped after some months to go back and reread, you know, when you misspell a word on Microsoft Word, there's like a red squiggly line beneath the word.

[00:23:53] And so I had all these red squiggly lines and every place where I meant to write ancestor, I had written angel sester. And I was like, angel sester? Where did that come from? And I Googled it to see if it was a word and it wasn't. And I called my lawyer immediately and got a trademarked. I was like, I just made up a word.

[00:24:21] But that, but listen, all due to my angel sesters, right? This is 10% me, 90% them. And so can you define angel sester for the Black and published audience? Yes. An angel sester is a divine ancestor who protect and guide the living. All right. Thank you. Because I want to ask, what makes an ancestor divine? Because not all of them, as you mentioned in the book.

[00:24:51] No, no, they are not all divine. And I don't know, you know, I could be picking and choosing saying, well, my great grandma Rosie is my divine ancestor. But I don't know. I believe she is. But I know that I have some ancestors who weren't good human beings. All right. I don't know what happens on the other side.

[00:25:19] I don't know if they become, you know, clean, virgin-like again. I don't know what's going on, but I don't call off. Although I did see, probably on TikTok, someone saying, if you have some trouble here on Earth, that you know one of the no-good ancestors would have taken care of if they were here, then you should probably call on them to handle that.

[00:25:47] But I don't feel like I want to open that door. Then how do you send them back after they do what they do? How do you send them back? Right. Like, I don't need you no more. Go back. Exactly. To the purgatory you came from. Thank you. Okay. You spoke earlier about how influential reading was for you being both an escape and a safe place.

[00:26:12] And yet there's this part in the book where you come back from, I believe it was from Barbados with your father's side of the family. And you come home and all of your books are gone. And then that becomes like a recurring theme in the book that he just like throws shit away. Yes. I know you can't speak for him, but do you think that was part of like, I guess, training to accept the abuse he was doling out?

[00:26:40] Like just, just like showing you that everything is temporary. I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but another passion of mine is reading about listening to podcasts about toxic relationships and narcissism. I have a lot of narcissists in my family just surrounding me. So I didn't realize this until like 2017. 17. 17. 17. But my father was an alcoholic.

[00:27:11] And when he wasn't drinking, he was as meek and as mild as a mouse. And he needed that what we call liquid courage, right? To, you know, get all brawly and everything. But yeah, he was definitely a toxic man and a controlling man. And he would do things to create chaos.

[00:27:34] And so he knew when I came home and found that my books were gone and my cat was gone, that I would be very upset. And that gave him a lot of pleasure because he was also a lonely man, right? He didn't have a whole lot of friends. And so he derived a lot of pleasure by terrorizing his wife and his children.

[00:27:57] And in talking about the terror that you experienced, you referenced how it was almost cyclical. You said it in the opening that you read for us today about how Thelma had endured cycles of abuse with James, even though they were friendly by your second birthday. And you have a line on page 98 talking about hard women and that you come from a line of hard women.

[00:28:21] So I wonder, what do you think of this current trend, craze, craving that Black women have, the 92% for this soft life and soft living? I want that for myself too, right? The soft life, absolutely. Again, the era, this whole strong Black woman. I don't know who put that on us, right?

[00:28:48] And why we took it on and wore it for as long as we did. I understand the necessity, right? But we deserve softness, right? All women, Black, white, we all deserve softness. I love the trend and I am currently in my soft life. I have decided, yes, I'm tired. And when I want to rest, I'm going to rest.

[00:29:16] And if I don't want to go, I won't be there. And no is a part of my language now. No, no, thank you. Thank you, but no. My maternal grandmother lived until she was 96 years old. She had a very long life. But her mother died at 27. And her grandmother died at 62. I'm not too far away from that.

[00:29:44] Just from the stress of being Black and female in this country. So yes, it's about time that we've entered into this soft era. And I hope we really take it on. I hope it's not just a passing thing. Is the fact that you write about hard subjects part of what fuels your demand for softness in your life? No, I don't think so. I don't think the two are connected. At least I don't feel that way now.

[00:30:14] But now you're going to have me thinking. My need for softness is, I think it comes from, I've worked hard in my life. And I've taken care of a lot of people, right? And I've not felt taken care of. I've poured a lot from my cup. And now I'm going to pour mostly into me. Because I don't know how many years I have left.

[00:30:41] So that's the decision that I've made. Yes, ma'am. I think part of the reason I asked that question is because even though this is a memoir, you note in the final office note that you started writing this book in the middle of the pandemic about one month after George Floyd was murdered.

[00:31:05] And, again, talking about how you, quote, I believe it was Ernest Hemingway that said history that rhymes. Mark Twain. Mark Twain, sorry.

[00:31:16] All the different ways that history has rhymed over the course of your lifetime that is in this memoir from the Central Park Five to the Scottsboro Boys and all the different ways and violences and atrocities that have befallen the Black body.

[00:31:35] They generally at no fault of their own or due to some minor infraction that wouldn't even register for a white person, which now includes inciting an insurrection and trying to steal a whole election. But we won't dwell.

[00:31:52] Why was it important for you to have those moments of history of where Black people have come from and the violences that we have endured as part of the story about even the violences that you have endured? Because I'm, again, interested in patterns, connections. There are connections there.

[00:32:16] And also, it's just really infuriating for me to be gaslit by white folk. It's not that bad. You probably deserved it if you only complied, if you only smiled. And to live in that type of environment, to wake up in it, to go to sleep in it, I can't ignore it.

[00:32:44] So I have to write about anything that infuriates me, I'm going to write about anything I'm interested in. I'm going to write about anything that I want to investigate. I'm going to write about it. And I say also that I started the book basically an angry Black woman and I ended the book as an angry Black woman. But I'm more now disappointed than I am angry because I understand. Clearly, we're in some ridiculous loop.

[00:33:13] That's what it feels like. If I'm dealing with the same issues that my mother dealt with, my grandmother and my double great, and going all the way back to the beginning of my family's line in this country, then there's some cosmic thing happening. And me remaining angry about it is not going to fix it. I could be disappointed. I could be hurt.

[00:33:38] But I'm going to turn my energy back onto myself and make myself happy. And I'm going to actually send out love into the world because I think that's another problem, right? When you're in an abusive relationship, if you feed into that madness, if you try to correct that crazy person that you're with, what happens? You start going crazy yourself. And I think that's the plan. So I'm like, I'm not going to do that anymore.

[00:34:08] I've been telling my friends, I was like, oh, he's back in the White House. I'm not going to look. You know, I'll peek in and make sure I can still drive a car. Like, I don't know how quickly things are going to change. So I'll check in just to see. But I'm not going to concentrate my energy on that. I'm going to put it elsewhere. You said you started the book as an angry Black woman and you finished the book as an angry Black woman. But that has given way to disappointment.

[00:34:36] In all of that anger, does writing it out and writing through it give you any sense of freedom? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there are things that I can do on the page and not go to jail for. Right? The pen is a powerful sword. I can do and say things on the page that might get me put in jail if I didn't send those things out in the real world.

[00:35:05] So in finding your liberation on the page, what do you want readers to take from your memoir? The main thing is that if you have a dream, you should pursue it. Understand that it's not always going to be a straight line.

[00:35:25] The steps that I tell you to take or the steps that you, Nikisha, tell people to take, that might not be the path for them. But if you know where it is exactly you want to go, just set your sights on that place and start walking. Do what you have to do to get there. That's it. There are other things that's going to come into play. Obstacles are going to be thrown up.

[00:35:51] But if this is something that you really, truly want, already see yourself as possessing it. And it's going to come to you in time. You have to manifest your life. It's all about manifestation. I really believe that. All right. So I want to do like a speed round and a little game before I let you go for the afternoon. What is your favorite book? It changes.

[00:36:17] I got to tell you, I was thinking about Paradise by Toni Morrison the other day. And I'm thinking about going back to reread it for this will probably be my fourth time. I'm going to spend the first half of 25 rereading novels. And just, you know, quick little story about that novel. It took me 10 years to read that novel. I don't know. Have you read it? Paradise? I have it. I believe I've read it.

[00:36:45] I think I read all of her novels, but I read a lot of her work, like when I was like 21. So it's probably going to hit different now that I'm 38. It's going to hit different. Yeah. Right. So yeah, that novel, I just, you know, it just dragged me. I was so troubled by it. I'm like, what is she doing? What is she saying? And one day it just clicked. And I was like, I love this story. It's such a phenomenal story.

[00:37:12] Um, so today that's my favorite novel. Who is your favorite author? I'm going to have to say Toni Morrison today. I have so many, but she's definitely in my, in my top five. So if we get a sugar on the screen, TV or film, who would play your title character? Oh, a few years ago when I saw, what is her name?

[00:37:42] Jodi Turner? Turner Smith. Smith. I thought, oh, I think she could do that. I think she could really pull it. I like her. So yeah. What do you think is the best book to movie or TV adaptation? The Color Purple. The, the, the first movie. Yes. Let's clarify. Yes. Clarify. The first. The first.

[00:38:11] I won't say any more about it, but yeah, I, I, I watched that movie once a year and I, and it makes me cry every time. The ending. Ah, I love it. If money were no object, where would you go? What would you do? And where would you live? Right now it's a toss up between Portugal, which I visited. And I really liked that country, even though, you know, they're the problem. This is why we're, we're here now.

[00:38:41] Um, uh, or the problem or one of the African countries. I'm still making my way through the continent. I like South Africa very much. Problematic. But I do. I was in Kenya last summer. I like to spend more time in Kenya and look at the different cities there. So it would either be Portugal, the country or one of the countries in Africa.

[00:39:09] Name three things on your bucket list. Number one is to spend a week at Little Dick's Bay in Virgin Gorder. Now I've, I've been there a few times, but this is when I worked in the industry and I didn't have to pay out of pocket. So I'd like to go back on my own dime. Two would be riding a hot air balloon. I'm terrified of heights, but I really want to do that.

[00:39:37] And three would be to take a luxury train ride, like the Orient Express or something like that. What brings you joy? Oh, traveling. That brings me so much joy. Traveling, reading, listening to music, eating good food, being with good people. Peace. That was my next question. What brings you peace?

[00:40:03] I don't like to be around miserable, unhappy people because misery loves company. Um, being silent, being grateful brings me peace. I make sure every morning when I wake up, I thank my angel sisters. You know, just, just being quiet. Oh, just nature, being out in nature and being in the ocean. So our game is called rewriting the classics. Classic is however you define it.

[00:40:32] Name one book you wish you would have written. Oh my goodness. Yes. I'm going to have to go back to Toni Morrison and Beloved. Yes. Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? Oh, Paradise. Again, Toni Morrison. Because I'm still confused about the ending.

[00:41:00] I've asked people who've read the book and we're not really clear about what this ending is. So I would rewrite the ending to clarify. I think I might get it. I feel like it's a, I feel like there's a, um, the, the people went off to another realm. That's what I think happened. But I think I would rewrite it to clarify that. Our endings got real murky around Song of Solomon and they didn't always clear up.

[00:41:29] Like Tar Baby was like the book that I was like, but what? You know what book I was in and you'll have to be okay with it. So. Yes. I understand. And final question is my messy question. Name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why? Overrated and overtaught. Or, or overtaught. Either or. Or overtaught. Mm-hmm. You're trying to get me in trouble. You can do dead white people, dead white men.

[00:41:58] Oh, okay. Thank you. Um, I don't even know. I don't even, you know, listen, quick, another quick story. Lynn Nottage, Lynn Nottage, the great playwright. She came to Tulane and one of my colleagues was in conversation with her and they were

[00:42:22] talking about the so-called masters of literature, which, you know, mostly white and male. And she was like, basically, I don't read them. I didn't need to read them to write. And I was like, thank God. Yes, I didn't, I didn't read them. They were more, I mean, I had to read them in high school, but I couldn't tell you, I couldn't tell you what, what they, what they said in them pages. I really couldn't because I had no interest.

[00:42:52] Um, so I don't know. Who would you pick? The book that was overrated or overtaught. I think I said this before, but I had to read it in high school. That damn Heart of Darkness. Oh, yeah. Heart of Darkness sent me. Beowulf sent me. Beowulf. Of OCFC. Yes. I know people appreciate John Steinbeck because he's sparse. Grace of Wrath.

[00:43:21] And does a lot with a little. He doesn't do it for me. No. So I will choose every book that you just mentioned. Yes, ma'am. All right. My final question for you today. When you are dead and gone and become an angel sister, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind?

[00:43:46] I would like them to say that she told her truth, the whole truth, and nothing but her truth. Big thank you to Miss Bernice L. McFadden for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Miss Bernice on the socials at Bernice L. McFadden on Instagram. And make sure you check out First Born Girls. It's out right now, today, from Dutton.

[00:44:12] You can get a copy of the memoir from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you liked this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published, and that's B-L-K-And Published.

[00:44:37] There, I've posted a bonus clip for my interview with Bernice about the novel she's working on next. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Laysha Ward, author of the book Lead Like You Mean It. Black women have felt compelled to be the savior. We are not superhuman. We are human.

[00:45:01] And I would just encourage us to lay down that burden of having to carry the ball and the weight the world. We should give ourselves permission to make the choices for where we want to lean in and where we want to step back. And we get to define that, not let others define that for us. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. Peace.

[00:45:34] What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.