Enjoying the Life You've Built with Minda Honey

[00:00:00] My writing was dismissed as Chick-Late, you know, people accused me of having a drinking problem.

[00:00:06] Like, people just don't take the lives of women seriously, they don't take the lives of Black women seriously.

[00:00:13] What's good?

[00:00:14] I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published.

[00:00:18] Brigadier The Journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytelling of all kinds.

[00:00:24] Today's guest is Minda Honey, author of the memoir The Heartbreak Years.

[00:00:30] A retrospective for the 20-somethings who are ready to stop leaping into the lives of the men they like

[00:00:36] and instead choose themselves in a life they love.

[00:00:39] Young women are taught to fear 30, like if you're not married, if you're not this, if things aren't settled

[00:00:45] and you kind of hit this point where you're just like, oh shit, like the choices I make now

[00:00:50] have lead to things that are going to be with me for a very long time and like I said in the book,

[00:00:54] like I didn't want hot mop bucket salesman like on my tombstone when I died.

[00:00:59] A native of Louisville, Kentucky, Minda has lived a lot of life and loved hard along the way.

[00:01:05] From following her high school sweetheart across the country to California

[00:01:09] to maintaining a platonic relationship with a magnetic man, Minda says through it all

[00:01:15] it was writing that sustained her, how she gained the confidence and arrogance to bet on herself

[00:01:22] and what some called her raunchy work.

[00:01:25] Plus, how writing about dating in her 20s became an interrogation of her own attitudes around mental health,

[00:01:31] consent, and alcoholism.

[00:01:34] And the reason she says she hasn't given up on love despite the inherent risk and sometimes violence against women.

[00:01:43] That and more is next when black and published continues.

[00:01:53] And trigger warning, this episode contains discussion of sexual assault and rape.

[00:01:59] Please be gentle with yourselves when listening.

[00:02:04] Girl, I tell you I read the book in four days. Oh my god.

[00:02:08] I could not put it down.

[00:02:10] Oh my god. I should get that on the recording.

[00:02:13] I will include it. I will include it.

[00:02:16] I love you.

[00:02:18] But before we get into the heartbreak years, let's jump in with the first question.

[00:02:24] When did you know that you were a writer?

[00:02:27] I've always been a writer like ever since I was a little kid, I was always telling stories and like I remember learning how to type

[00:02:35] and like the first thing I wanted to type up was a little story about all the jungle animals having a teeth party.

[00:02:42] So always been a writer but you know, like my dad's a disabled American veteran, my mom's a Filipino immigrant.

[00:02:49] So it was very much like study hard, get a full scholarship to college, go to college, get a good job.

[00:02:55] And so I never knew how one actually became a writer and made a living off of writing.

[00:03:01] But I figured it out.

[00:03:04] You did. But before you figured it out, why did you feel the need to always pursue writing even though that wasn't what you were doing necessarily professionally?

[00:03:14] I think it's just you know when you're creative like you just have like this kind of spiritual restlessness if you're not creating.

[00:03:22] And so I think writing has just always been mine and my way to express myself.

[00:03:27] I'm also a capricorn. So I've described myself as like sexually liberal and emotionally conservative.

[00:03:33] And so on the page, I really have an opportunity to kind of sit down and spend some time with my feelings.

[00:03:40] Was it always an exploration of your relationships or lack thereof that you were putting down on the page?

[00:03:46] Wow interview again spicy.

[00:03:48] My back.

[00:03:50] I'm not trying to make it too spicy.

[00:03:52] You know when I was an undergrad, I started out writing fiction because I like I didn't know what nonfiction was.

[00:03:59] I didn't really like know that was a thing.

[00:04:01] I thought only like famous people got to write autobiographies.

[00:04:04] And I had this fiction professor at undergrad who was really really mean to me.

[00:04:11] And so I like I stopped writing short stories and at some point in that workshop somebody told me like you know you could just write about your life.

[00:04:20] So as the years kind of went by, I found out about creative nonfiction as a genre.

[00:04:25] And so I started writing more memoir and personal essay.

[00:04:29] And yeah, it tended to be mostly about dating like some of these pieces started out in real time.

[00:04:35] So when I was in Orange County after me and my ex broke up like I joined this writing group.

[00:04:40] Everyone else in the right group except for me was like an older white person like the next youngest person had to be like 20 years older than me.

[00:04:49] And I would come in with these screens about my ex boyfriend and Larry and them were just like, oh no not this again.

[00:04:57] I'm not going to let you like heaven help her.

[00:05:00] Right, like please, you know when you're 20 years, you're kind of self involved.

[00:05:03] So I didn't care that they didn't keep bringing those pieces in.

[00:05:08] And yeah, like when I was putting the book together and I went back through some of those earlier drafts.

[00:05:14] I just cringe so hard because they were so emotional.

[00:05:20] Like you shouldn't be writing an essay the same way you write a live journal entry.

[00:05:26] No, you got to finesse it a little.

[00:05:30] And part in the book where you make a decision.

[00:05:33] And like you don't talk about the writing journey as much in the earlier chapters, but there's a part where I think you were in Denver and you like you know what this isn't it.

[00:05:42] I need to go do something else.

[00:05:44] What was that moment in life like for you emotionally be like you know what?

[00:05:49] I'm going to go back to California get an MFA and do this thing that I'm that I've been keeping from myself.

[00:05:55] I always refer to Denver as my lifetime out because I was I was like I was like put in the corner essentially like I was isolated.

[00:06:04] I wasn't with all my girls in LA.

[00:06:06] I didn't have like a lot of things I need to be doing.

[00:06:09] I didn't really have any friends so it really gave me some time to sit down and think about what I wanted.

[00:06:14] I also think because that's about when I was like 29 about to turn 30.

[00:06:19] And I think there are just a lot of things that click into place for your life when you're about to turn 30 young women are taught to fear 30 like if you're not married, if you're not this and things aren't settled.

[00:06:30] But for me it was more like I had experienced enough things to know that whatever came next like I could handle it.

[00:06:38] And I also knew enough about myself at that point to know like what I wanted out of life and what I didn't want out of life.

[00:06:45] And you kind of hit this point where you're just like oh shit like the choices I make now could lead the things that are going to be with me for a very long time.

[00:06:53] And like I said in the book, like I didn't want top mock bucket salesman like on my tombstone when I died.

[00:07:00] I also at that age for the first time had gotten to a place of financial stability where like I could afford to take a creative risk like I literally.

[00:07:10] I got a full fellowship to UC Riverside but then I also had my bonus check from the previous year to supplement that so it's like I'm finally in a place where I can afford to prioritize my writing.

[00:07:22] And I think a lot of black women this like ability to invest in ourselves and bet on ourselves happens for a slater in life.

[00:07:29] And that's why we see success a little bit later as well like when you think of your favorite black women celebrities a lot of them their career peaks are like when they're 40 you know what I'm saying whereas a lot of these white women celebrities their careers peak when they're 20 like they're done by the time they hit 30.

[00:07:48] But you know Gabrielle Union to Raji all of these folks they hit the mainstream at 40 so like don't give up on yourself just because you don't have white privilege to like subsidize your dreams.

[00:08:02] So then in doing that and having that you know kind of quarter life crisis oh my god I'm turning 30 what am I doing.

[00:08:10] Did you feel like going after the MFA program made you more serious about your passion?

[00:08:17] I think in a way it made me feel like I was more serious because I was finally making choices that centered my writing versus having to center career or centering a man like this was like what have I always loved what have I always been passionate about.

[00:08:34] And it's always been writing so that was really kind of the first time that whether or not it getting an MFA makes you feel serious making the decision to be serious about my writing is what led me to the MFA.

[00:08:46] So then in prioritizing and taking yourself seriously MFA be damned really.

[00:08:53] When did you know that writing these stories these essays about what you were experiencing as a young black single woman in the dating world that was like this is something that needs to be put into a book.

[00:09:10] I think you know I've resisted it a little bit because I did receive so much pushback you know especially like in my MFA program.

[00:09:19] My writing was dismissed as chicklit you know people accused me of having a drinking problem like people just don't take the lives of women seriously they don't take the lives of black women seriously so I had some doubts and I was like oh I need to write about like more serious things but that just wasn't what was on my spirit to write about.

[00:09:39] And eventually like you have to write the story that wants to be written like all writers were always coming back to that same core story and it's like I came into the MFA because I had so much work experience because I had come out of like this very successful sales and marketing role.

[00:09:58] I came into the MFA in a slightly different position that a lot of people because a lot of those folks are career students or they had very little work experience before they went to the MFA so everything felt very life or death to them and they also felt like.

[00:10:12] They were competing with the people in the room whereas I knew like y'all are my competition like the competition is out in the world.

[00:10:20] And so I also knew though like if this whole writing thing doesn't work out like I've got monetizable skills that I can return to so I think that that gave me a little bit more confidence and a little bit more ability to take that risk and to just really double down on doing what I wanted to do.

[00:10:39] You say confidence but I wonder if it was really it gave you more freedom to be you on the page sure yeah I think freedom is a good word.

[00:10:49] I think sometimes it was arrogance.

[00:10:54] I got a little Kanye strand in me so.

[00:10:57] I think we all do.

[00:10:59] Oh Kanye, Kanye.

[00:11:02] So then let's talk about the long trajectory toward making the early draft of the essays.

[00:11:11] This book that you have called the heartbreak years what was that editing process like an even the growth process for you personally.

[00:11:20] Yeah so I mean me and my ex broke up at 23 and I'm 38 like this book is just now coming out you know and like I said some of those pieces I was writing in real time.

[00:11:34] Some of the pieces I wrote while in grad school and some of those pieces I wrote in the years following grad school like a farewell to fuck boys was one very lengthy essay for long reads that went viral and then like I broke it up.

[00:11:48] So in the book it's like three separate essays but I could just tell like not only had I like grown as a writer, but I have grown as a person so even though like I'm nearly 40 in this book about my 20s is coming out like I could not have written this book any soon.

[00:12:03] So just like a certain amount of time needs to pass and then I needed to have like a certain number of years past so that I could grow as a writer.

[00:12:13] And I always tell my students like all of this work, all of these layers none of that happens in the first draft like you know you got to return to things over and over and some of these things you know with just the way that publishing and freelancing and things work today.

[00:12:30] Sometimes you have a much shorter window of time with the piece but there's definitely value in some of these pieces that sit with you for years and just you know like a good broth, like a good gumbo like it was only going to get better over time.

[00:12:48] And that's very evident in the writing and in the book itself where you know you have the first layer may have been just the raw emotion.

[00:12:56] And the situation of whatever happened that you're talking about but then underneath that you are digging into how this affects gender roles, how this affects pedor normativity, how this affects you know rape culture and all of these different things that not just from a woman's perspective or you know mental health.

[00:13:16] Like all of these things that we don't talk about in context of relationships but are very much a part of doing life with people, whether you marry them or just fuck them on the first and send them on their way they're always there.

[00:13:32] And so I love how you dig into that death while also you know airing out your shenanigans at the same.

[00:13:41] Oh, I try to strike a balance.

[00:13:45] I love great. I loved it.

[00:13:47] I really really did.

[00:13:49] So with that said what was your publishing journey like once you said okay i've got something that's approach proposal that whole thing.

[00:13:57] Yeah, so I graduated with my MFA in 2016 and I didn't really write anything new until 2017.

[00:14:05] I had an essay go viral in March of 2017 woman of color and wide open spaces about this road trip that I took across the country to decompress from the oppressive whiteness of MFA programs only to discover that the great outdoors is also really racist.

[00:14:22] And so I wrote this essay. It went super viral and then I had an agent assistant from a really big agency reach out to me like what do you have do you have anything and I was like oh i'm not ready, I'm not ready yet.

[00:14:36] And so then it took me like another couple of years before I was like like okay i'm in a place to start looking for an agent.

[00:14:44] So 2019, I spent almost the whole year querying which is the worst part I think of the entire process because everything after that you have your agent with you so you're not in it alone but with querying you just out there.

[00:14:58] But my agent ended up finding me December of that year when I had like given up all hope and I was like so frustrated Kayla lightener reached out to me and was like I read one of your essays in lily dance figures burn it down.

[00:15:15] And then I went and looked up everything else you've ever written and like I'd love to represent you and Kayla's kind of a big deal now but when she found me I was her first client.

[00:15:24] I was her first client and she was on a smaller agency and so when she made the leap, she took me with her and she's like you want to come with us again, I want to come with you.

[00:15:32] And one of the things that Kayla said about my writing she's like I feel like i'm back in Georgia at waffle house at 3 AM like you know laughing it up with my best friend and I was like she gets it like she's the type of person that like that she's who i'm like writing this for so I was like yeah let's ride let's go like let's do this together and so i'm really, really happy that that I signed with her.

[00:15:54] So I signed with her into 2019 we decided we're going to go out on submission March 2020.

[00:16:01] See where this is going yeah so the pandemic hit and at the time I was a director of a college program, so the college you know was obviously trying to pivot online and I was also very new in my role like this is only my second semester in the role so I was like very overwhelmed trying to like get everything online trying to you know.

[00:16:23] Guide the students through this and then also i'm in Louisville Kentucky so March 2020 is also when the social justice uprisings for the murder Breonna Taylor began as well like I live very close to where the protests were so it was just helicopters.

[00:16:39] Over my house constantly the police like everything happened with the news like it was just very, very heavy so Kayla was like hey why don't you like take care of yourself and we will go on submission when we're ready so we didn't go on submission I think until.

[00:16:55] June or July and I got rejected by everybody in the first round and Kayla was like I know this book will sell we just need to like tweak the book proposal a little bit.

[00:17:06] And I was all my feelings and into me months to make like 20 minutes worth of tweaks.

[00:17:12] I was like whatever i'm a top salesperson I will sell this book out of the trunk of my car they're all going to be sorry all up in my feelings as someone who's so booked out of the trunk of their car.

[00:17:24] You don't want to do that forever not something you want to do forever it's possible I did it i've done it for years but it's not.

[00:17:34] It's not make the edits.

[00:17:37] I made the edits we went on submission October 1st the book went to auction and it was sold by the end of the month so.

[00:17:46] So you know so it's been almost three years and yeah like when when I first got that date when it was first like 2023 is like that type of like what do you.

[00:17:56] 23 like what what is that even what what we do it so but you know with non fiction you saw the book on proposals so a lot of times the book does not exist yet so it just takes a little bit more time to write it edit it round up all the trees to publish it on.

[00:18:12] Yeah it's been isn't it's been a journey.

[00:18:16] The trees are not a given in today's client they are the paper shortage is real the paper shortage is real okay it's so hot the plants the photos synthesis is failing i've read recently so get the ebook.

[00:18:32] I don't know what the galley of my hair.

[00:18:37] Let's get into the book so let's get into the book do you have it can you read from it yes because we had to talk about it.

[00:18:47] Minda honey is the heartbreak years chronicles minda's journey from first love and heartbreak to saying farewell to fuck boys for good using her birthday to mark the milestones of her love life.

[00:19:00] Minda discovers as she moves from our early 20s to late 30s that know you can't turn a pot farmer into a house husband and anyone wanting partnership needs to protect your piece here's minda.

[00:19:14] Okay i'm going to read from a section let's call Denver is white people is it Liana.

[00:19:22] In the chapter like I've like my work is very on very short notice moved me to Denver i'm feeling very depressed because i don't have any friends it's cold and I end up dating my neighbor who also happens to be a pot farmer and this is the section where I meet him.

[00:19:43] It was February 2013 more than a week after Valentine's day I met Nick online a few messages in we discovered we lived in the same massive downtown Denver apartment complex so close to the rocky stadium I could hear the roar of the crowd with each crack of the bat.

[00:20:02] Nick invited me to meet him at the liquor store on the corner I said yes I said yes even though I wondered who the fuck wants to meet at a liquor store on a first date.

[00:20:13] Decidedly not a meet cute but at least it was a reason to leave my apartment by the time Nick walked into the liquor store I was already at the register with a bottle of red wine in hand he was late he nodded at me as if we already knew each other the cashier who usually commented on how pretty I looked in my driver's license photo.

[00:20:32] Saw the nod and looked portrayed Nick was barely taller than me and when I saw him I remember I didn't immediately find him attractive something about the shape of his head but I made the split second decision to like him anyway outside of the liquor store his dog was tied to a rail with an old belt looped around its neck he had his dog for quite some time but for some reason he didn't own a leash I didn't say anything my apartment's messy but you're welcome to come over and kick it he said.

[00:21:02] As he freed his dog from the railing and wrapped the end of the belt around his fist I didn't know this guy so I wasn't trying to be alone with him in his dirty ass apartment my place was clean but I wasn't ready to have this stranger over.

[00:21:15] Instead I suggested we hang out in the communal area of our apartment complex complexes that advertise themselves as resort style living always have these oversized living room wreck area types of spaces decorated like a page out of a pottery barn padlock.

[00:21:32] With overstuffed couches vases with dramatic fake floral arrangements to large coffee tables with two sharp corners a supersized TV with all of the channels and some overly complicated beverage machine that serves every variation of coffee you can imagine if you can figure out the right order to hit the buttons and there's almost never anyone using this space within the hour Nick and I were curled up so close on the couch any closer and we'd have been cuddling.

[00:21:59] Drinking together can quickly close the distance between you and a stranger I told him about my move he told me about where he grew up in Baltimore his work as a pot farmer how few black people there are there were in the industry.

[00:22:12] How growing we had always been a side hustle for him but after college and after retired of office work in the east coast he decided to move to Colorado to make it a full time venture he was good at it.

[00:22:23] He drank his beer I drink my wine we kept trading little parts of our stories he was thirty five and I turned twenty eight a month earlier I was five years older than the women he usually dated any felt the need to inform me they were usually white.

[00:22:37] He told me about girls from his past is sheeding ways telling me without telling me not to fall for him even as he pursued me in the end I would remind myself I walked into this knowingly so you made some guys in the back.

[00:22:52] I was a guy in the book and I think the names that I gravitated toward the most was Henry Chevy and then Hunter.

[00:23:02] Okay thank you and I should also be clear that I changed everyone's name I know every day I know everyone's name has been changed to protect the guilty I'm aware but I was like whoever these men are these was that I want to know about why was it important for you to memorialize some of the people.

[00:23:21] Some of the people that you have met and dated and had some type of connection with in this book you know in the final chapter epilogue I talk about how I want like this millennial waiting to exhale.

[00:23:34] And I also talk about how just because these relationships were shorter or they didn't end up in marriage or life partnership doesn't mean that they didn't play a role in helping me discover who I am.

[00:23:47] Or that they didn't shape my life in some significant ways those relationships I think are just as valid and just as important.

[00:23:56] And you know with Henry especially like he just has this magnetism my friends would always call him Mr. GQ and so there was just like something about him and there were a lot of men that did not make the book and some of those stories are just as absurd just as ridiculous but I'm not sure if I can do it.

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[00:40:36] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:40:44] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:40:54] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:02] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:12] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:20] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:30] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:38] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:48] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:41:56] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:06] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:14] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:22] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:32] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:40] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:50] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:42:58] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:43:08] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:43:16] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:43:26] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:43:34] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:43:44] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:43:52] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:44:10] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:44:20] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:44:28] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:44:38] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:44:46] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:44:56] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:45:04] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:45:22] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:45:40] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:45:58] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:46:08] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:46:16] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:46:34] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:46:54] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:47:14] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:47:36] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:47:46] I'm not sure if I can do it.

[00:48:04] I'm not sure if I can do it.