Engineering the Story with Vanessa Riley

[00:00:00] There is a population that believed that we were kings and queens in Africa.

[00:00:04] And then we got on a spaceship and we were dropped back in 1865 in America,

[00:00:09] just so we could be free. Nothing in between. What's good.

[00:00:13] I'm Nikesha Elise Williams.

[00:00:15] And this is Black and Published bringing you the journeys of writers,

[00:00:19] poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:23] Today's guest is Vanessa Riley, author of the novel Queen of Exiles.

[00:00:30] It's a Regency romance about Haiti's first and only queen,

[00:00:33] Marie Louise Christophe and how even exiled from her own nation,

[00:00:38] she reigned among the rulers of Europe's royal court.

[00:00:41] I build the world so that I show you that even in times of struggle or

[00:00:46] strife on a global stage, our people have always found joy.

[00:00:51] We have found ways to get through.

[00:00:53] An engineer and self-proclaimed math nerd,

[00:00:57] Vanessa applies her inventive and analytical mindset to her creative writing.

[00:01:02] The two engineering questions she always asks herself to guide her

[00:01:06] storytelling. Plus why she believes money trumps race,

[00:01:11] and why she refuses to run from or be ashamed of history in telling a

[00:01:16] story about the good, bad,

[00:01:18] and ugly of Haiti and how the first Black nation was robbed, pillaged,

[00:01:23] and plundered.

[00:01:24] Vanessa Riley sets the record straight when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:40] All right, so let's jump in. Miss Vanessa,

[00:01:43] when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:46] My mother would say probably the first time I scribbled with crayons on the

[00:01:49] wall, I was a writer. Yeah, I got in trouble for that.

[00:01:54] But I've always written. My mom was very big in literature,

[00:01:59] so she made sure that we were reading everything from Baldwin to Thoreau.

[00:02:03] Octavia Butler, I mean, she just made sure that we were very well

[00:02:08] rounded. Shakespeare was another big one. My father's a storyteller.

[00:02:11] He's from the Islas. He's from Trinidad and Tobago.

[00:02:14] And so every story has a rhythm to it.

[00:02:17] So you get this perfect marriage of rhythm and liturgy and

[00:02:22] structure. And I think that together, it was always,

[00:02:26] I think supposed to be for me to be a writer.

[00:02:28] I think it's always been in there.

[00:02:30] Wow. With that kind of background,

[00:02:33] was your desire to write always supported once you decided that is what you

[00:02:37] were going to do?

[00:02:39] No.

[00:02:43] Because see, I was also a good math girl. I was a math nerd girl.

[00:02:48] Yeah, I'd go to those and a science girl.

[00:02:50] So I'd go to the science camps and come home with my bronze medallion and

[00:02:54] nomenclature. I was that nerd.

[00:02:57] And so there came a point where I'm winning writing competitions.

[00:03:02] I'm also finally in these math and science competitions as well.

[00:03:07] And my mom sits me down and she was like, baby,

[00:03:09] you always need to be able to pay your bills.

[00:03:14] And during that time, you know,

[00:03:16] you see waves of black excellence and writers being able to,

[00:03:20] to live full lives and then nothing.

[00:03:23] Hmm. And, but you look over at engineering and they're always hiring,

[00:03:28] they're looking for new talent.

[00:03:30] And they're always paying.

[00:03:33] Boys and girls out there send your kids for engineering.

[00:03:36] They can have a very great life.

[00:03:39] And I got to work on some beautiful projects.

[00:03:41] So I have a bachelor's in mechanical engineering and master's in

[00:03:45] mechanical engineering from Penn State university.

[00:03:48] I have a master's in engineering management and mechanical engineering

[00:03:52] from Stanford university.

[00:03:54] Also a PhD in mechanical engineering from Stanford university.

[00:03:58] So when I go nerd, I go all the way girly.

[00:04:02] I do not stop.

[00:04:04] And I've had the benefit of working for General Motors, for NASA.

[00:04:08] I've done projects for Sun Microsystems.

[00:04:11] I've worked with a number of telecom startups, invented some things.

[00:04:15] It's been a blast.

[00:04:17] But when you have a passion for writing,

[00:04:21] it comes back.

[00:04:22] Yes. Cause I'm like, what you write romance?

[00:04:25] Any historical romance?

[00:04:27] Madam.

[00:04:30] I need you to explain.

[00:04:35] But engineering for my writing has, has, there was always two big

[00:04:39] questions for every engineering problem, how and why.

[00:04:42] Why do we need to do something?

[00:04:44] Why does it have to look like this?

[00:04:46] And then how are we going to make it?

[00:04:48] What kind of materials?

[00:04:50] So these how and why questions are what I structure my world.

[00:04:54] Because how can you have people of color existing in times where

[00:05:03] you go to a different country, enslavement is still happening.

[00:05:06] You go to the West Indies and you have exploitation and deep realms

[00:05:11] of poverty because of colonization.

[00:05:13] But yet I'm writing these romances that are bringing West Indian

[00:05:17] influence because that's the transit during the timeframe to England,

[00:05:22] which has outlawed enslavement.

[00:05:24] They're not looking over here at their colonies yet, but they've

[00:05:27] outlawed it and so there's a striving middle class that's developing

[00:05:30] between 10 and 20,000 free blacks are in London going about their

[00:05:35] daily lives, building thinking, thinking of politics, thinking of all

[00:05:39] the things that anyone else that is part of a nation wants to be and do.

[00:05:45] They're doing that.

[00:05:46] So I will build a world to show you how this happens.

[00:05:50] I build the world so that I show you that even in times of struggle or

[00:05:55] strife on a global stage, our people have always found joy.

[00:06:00] We have found ways to get through.

[00:06:03] And then some of us weren't in the struggle bus.

[00:06:05] Some of us were at the upper middle class.

[00:06:08] Some of us were entertaining the dukes and princes and the whole realm.

[00:06:15] People understood very quickly as you ever go into any room, you

[00:06:20] know who you can talk to.

[00:06:21] You know who's going to accept you the same when your skin has more

[00:06:27] melanin, you know, in these places and you know when you have to

[00:06:31] invent your own because those other opportunities don't exist for you.

[00:06:38] And it's not something to whine about or to complain about.

[00:06:41] It's just, this is a reality of what's on the ground.

[00:06:44] So I've always loved Regency romance.

[00:06:47] I believe Jane Austen was my gateway drug.

[00:06:49] And when I read Sanditon, which is her unfortunately unfinished novel,

[00:06:54] the richest woman in the book is a mulatto woman from the West Indies.

[00:06:57] And everyone is scheming to marry her because of money.

[00:07:02] Money trumps race.

[00:07:03] It still exists today.

[00:07:05] And so I'm showing you this microcosm.

[00:07:07] So for me answering, how can you have happiness and joy in these

[00:07:13] historical contexts?

[00:07:15] I'm showing you the whys.

[00:07:16] I'm showing you the wherefores.

[00:07:18] I'm showing you how these things happen.

[00:07:21] So for me, it's more the engineering principles that guide everything I

[00:07:26] write, whether it's historical romance or historical mystery or

[00:07:29] historical fiction, those hows and whys get the job done.

[00:07:33] Yes ma'am.

[00:07:34] You said when you have a passion, it always comes back.

[00:07:37] When did your passion for writing come back to you with the

[00:07:40] vengeance that you must do this now in the midst of your story, career and

[00:07:44] engineering with all of those marquee companies that you had mentioned?

[00:07:48] There was a point in my life I was pregnant.

[00:07:50] It was a difficult pregnancy.

[00:07:52] The doctor says, you've got to sit still for five months.

[00:07:56] My husband's walking on eggshells.

[00:07:57] He goes to the attic and he pulls out a box and it's got some of my

[00:08:02] journals that I was writing in high school.

[00:08:04] And I find this crazy story I wrote and I was like, I know more degrees.

[00:08:08] Now I know what I'm doing.

[00:08:10] I did not know what I was doing, but I was determined to try it.

[00:08:13] And I took the story and I rewrote it about 125 times, but that was my very

[00:08:19] first book, girl you can't take the engineers, engineers iterate.

[00:08:23] So one iteration was, was language.

[00:08:25] Another iteration was pacing.

[00:08:27] Another iteration was setting.

[00:08:28] Another innovation was dialogue.

[00:08:30] I do not suggest to do that at home, but that's the engineering brain.

[00:08:33] It does not leave you.

[00:08:35] That's a lot of drafts.

[00:08:36] Even if it wasn't 125, just you saying every iteration that you went through

[00:08:40] to, to get into what became your debut novel, that's a lot of drafts and

[00:08:44] a lot of patience.

[00:08:46] What gave you the fortitude to stay so persistent about bringing that

[00:08:55] book to fruition when you had a good job and you didn't really have to?

[00:08:59] You just, there's a point where you want it.

[00:09:02] I believe in writing every day because if you do not write every

[00:09:05] day, you are telling yourself it's not that important and your body,

[00:09:09] your muscles, your mind will say there's something more important to do.

[00:09:13] So I'm, I'm firm believer of writing every day, but when it came to this

[00:09:16] manuscript, I wanted to tackle it.

[00:09:20] I wanted to pull it apart.

[00:09:22] I wanted to understand what I was doing wrong.

[00:09:26] How can I fix it?

[00:09:27] And sometimes it's not wrong.

[00:09:29] It's just, it wasn't good enough.

[00:09:32] If you read anything and you go, so what then why is it there?

[00:09:36] Why am I wasting a reader's moment in time that they will never get back

[00:09:40] with filler words, with dialogue that goes nowhere, problems that could be

[00:09:46] solved just by a phone call?

[00:09:48] What, why am I wasting your time?

[00:09:50] I want you to feel like you are living these people's lives.

[00:09:54] And so it means you got to go very deep in these POVs and make sure you,

[00:09:58] those motivations are crystal clear.

[00:10:01] And so whatever you gotta do, you gotta do it.

[00:10:03] And so for me, I dig in and that process of learning, particularly on that first

[00:10:08] book, most normal people would have switched to another book.

[00:10:12] But my thing was if I don't understand what I'm doing in the first book, I'm

[00:10:17] not going to understand what I'm doing in the second book and I won't get

[00:10:21] better.

[00:10:22] And every time I write a book, I got to get better.

[00:10:24] I've got to figure something else out.

[00:10:26] But once again, I'd say there's probably easier ways to do it.

[00:10:29] That just made sense to me.

[00:10:31] So then once you finished that manuscript and it was ready, how did you and how

[00:10:37] have you found the publishing industry in terms of receptivity to your stories?

[00:10:44] Coming from a background where as you noticed mentioned before, in context

[00:10:48] of the stories that you write, you walk into a room, you know who your

[00:10:53] people are.

[00:10:54] In an industry like engineering, you know there may not be many of your

[00:10:58] people and the same thing can be said about publishing.

[00:11:01] Yeah, I've been in many rooms where I was the only female, only black, only

[00:11:06] one of Caribbean descent.

[00:11:08] You name it.

[00:11:09] I'm only the only right in engineering.

[00:11:12] So when stepping into publishing, it wasn't that different, except

[00:11:16] sometimes it could be a little bit crueler and more direct in what is

[00:11:21] said.

[00:11:22] So some of the conversations you may not hear in these engineering

[00:11:25] rooms, you will hear out loud.

[00:11:27] I've had people question whether black people existed in England.

[00:11:31] I've had people saying who've never opened a research book in their lives.

[00:11:37] They just happened to watch the 1995 version of Pride and Prejudice and

[00:11:41] they swore they didn't see no black people in there.

[00:11:43] So there couldn't be no black people.

[00:11:46] There is a population that believed that we were kings and queens in

[00:11:49] Africa, and then we got on a spaceship and we were dropped back in 1865 in

[00:11:55] America just so we could be free.

[00:11:56] Nothing in between.

[00:11:58] I've run into all of that.

[00:11:59] I've run into people who don't think black people can do research.

[00:12:04] I've run into people who think that our pros aren't tight, that we're

[00:12:09] not proper linguists.

[00:12:10] I have seen it all.

[00:12:12] But to all of that is there's always going to be a naysayer.

[00:12:16] There's always going to be.

[00:12:18] That's why you've got to believe in you.

[00:12:20] You've got to work so hard in making sure your craft is on point.

[00:12:24] And so for me, every year I try and take a new class, something to shake up the

[00:12:29] doldrums.

[00:12:30] I read authors that I admire.

[00:12:32] You keep reading, you keep pouring into yourself and your craft rises.

[00:12:39] And so now we switch to now.

[00:12:41] I mean, my books are on the shelves across this country.

[00:12:47] They're translated in Romanian, Portuguese, Russian is, I think,

[00:12:54] is coming out next year.

[00:12:56] Italian in about two years from now and French and of course, UK English, which is

[00:13:01] different than American English.

[00:13:02] Yes, it is different than American English.

[00:13:05] But this is going from your books will never be published, never be seen to now

[00:13:10] on a global stage.

[00:13:12] It's been a ride.

[00:13:12] It's a journey.

[00:13:13] But I think it's a testament to staying in the game, continuing to perfect your

[00:13:19] craft and not listening to no.

[00:13:22] Oh, that is a testament.

[00:13:24] So then having started at a point where I want to say your brain was questioned

[00:13:31] because that's what it sounds like to me.

[00:13:33] Like they weren't just questioning you as a person.

[00:13:35] They were questioning like your whole thought process, how your brain worked,

[00:13:39] the stories that you conjure.

[00:13:40] Like all of that was in question beyond just simple intelligence, because I

[00:13:44] think to question your intelligence would be foolish.

[00:13:47] But, you know, people do those things anyway.

[00:13:50] Then they recognize and they'd be like, my bad.

[00:13:54] But, you know, my first book was traditionally published.

[00:13:57] I got an agent and this agent was amazing, but she couldn't sell a book.

[00:14:04] Traditional publishing.

[00:14:06] I want everybody needs to be clear.

[00:14:07] Traditional publishers owe us nothing.

[00:14:10] They only buy a book if they think they can sell it.

[00:14:13] That does not indicate quality.

[00:14:15] That does not indicate anything more than they believe that they could sell

[00:14:18] this book. And some books just aren't a great transition for traditional

[00:14:24] publishers because of the way it has to be rolled out, the price points,

[00:14:28] there's all these sorts of things.

[00:14:29] So when my agent is getting, I mean, we were getting some of the best

[00:14:33] rejections I've ever heard in my life.

[00:14:36] Oh, we love this story.

[00:14:38] Does she have anything else?

[00:14:41] Oh, we love her voice.

[00:14:43] Does she have anything else?

[00:14:44] The closest we come to honesty is we don't know how to market this.

[00:14:49] There was a belief that if you show diversity, you show black people

[00:14:55] that aren't enslaved, that have positions of power and wealth

[00:15:01] in this society that Georgia here and the others have made famous

[00:15:07] as aristocracy, white, wealthy upper crust

[00:15:12] that people wouldn't believe it and they wouldn't buy it.

[00:15:16] That is not a flaw of traditional publishing.

[00:15:19] That's just where they were.

[00:15:21] And so it was up to me, do I believe that there are other nerds out there

[00:15:26] like me who like this stuff?

[00:15:29] So books two through 15 were independently published.

[00:15:33] Wow. And you know, with the bargain, the very first one out,

[00:15:37] I spent the money on a beautiful cover, editing, et cetera.

[00:15:41] I had no money for advertisement left because, you know, as an engineer,

[00:15:44] I set a firm budget and do them numbers.

[00:15:47] Boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:15:48] And this book just with the cover and word of mouth

[00:15:51] sold like a thousand copies in two weeks.

[00:15:54] That's good. People were people were what is this?

[00:15:58] And two, oh, wait a minute, this is not enslavement.

[00:16:01] Oh, wait a minute. This is interesting.

[00:16:03] Oh, wait a minute. There's history involved in this story.

[00:16:06] And it just spiraled out.

[00:16:08] And so by the time I get to book 15,

[00:16:12] now traditional publishers are coming back and it's been anything else.

[00:16:17] We see what you're doing there, girl.

[00:16:20] We think we know how to market you.

[00:16:24] First reaction was, who are you and how did you get my number?

[00:16:27] The second reaction was, what does traditional publishing do?

[00:16:32] I mean, I wanted to see my books, you know, 15 books.

[00:16:36] The first one was on a bookshelf.

[00:16:38] Two through 15 haven't been on bookshelves.

[00:16:41] And there's something about when people can go in and see it and touch it.

[00:16:45] Yes. In a bookstore, without having to do a special order is very important.

[00:16:51] And so I came up with a series Entangled, which is part of Macmillan,

[00:16:55] bought it. And now my books are showing up on NPR.

[00:16:59] They're showing up in the Washington Post because these were different types

[00:17:03] of stories and my craft was on point.

[00:17:06] So it led very well to this increasing interest of diversity

[00:17:12] in the Regency. And it just continued.

[00:17:14] Let's get to the reading.

[00:17:16] Can you read something from Queen of Exiles and then we can dive into

[00:17:20] Queen Marie-Louise.

[00:17:23] Vanessa Riley's Queen of Exiles details the life of Haiti's first and only

[00:17:28] queen, Marie Louise Christophe.

[00:17:31] In a dual timeline, you learn of the Queen's 10 year reign in Haiti,

[00:17:35] the fall of the kingdom and how she rebuilt her life in Europe,

[00:17:39] chapsing through England, France, Italy and more on the royal tour.

[00:17:44] Here's Vanessa. OK, so just to set up,

[00:17:48] Queen Louise and her daughters have escaped the Kingdom of Haiti,

[00:17:52] has fallen and they've escaped to London.

[00:17:55] They've been there about two days and now there's a problem.

[00:18:01] I'll search again.

[00:18:03] I said in a voice breaking with tears, turning to my weathered portmanteau,

[00:18:09] something I'd gotten from my sister during my captivity.

[00:18:13] I hunted and hoped more tossed silks flopping to the ground like ghosts,

[00:18:18] more bruising of my knuckles slapping along the bottom of an empty trunk,

[00:18:23] more punishing fear rocking and shredding my insides.

[00:18:26] My maid grabbed my wrists and pulled me to the burgundy tapestry,

[00:18:31] the covering used to warm the cold floor.

[00:18:34] It's stolen my rain.

[00:18:36] Wet streaks drizzled down Zephyrine's brown cheeks to the front of her white

[00:18:40] bib apron, prim and pressed and resolute in her service to me.

[00:18:46] My friend awaited orders from her sovereign.

[00:18:50] I'm not that anymore.

[00:18:52] I'm no longer queen.

[00:18:54] Flat and pulsing, wanting to grab onto something real, I steeled my hands.

[00:19:00] I'm just Madame Christophe, nothing more.

[00:19:03] My fingers sank deeper into the softness of the woven silk,

[00:19:07] the colorful Indian rug.

[00:19:11] I could picture the care and labor it had cost to reduce this treasure upon a loom,

[00:19:17] but I had to clutch the claw at something, something I could fight.

[00:19:21] It's not here, Zephyrine, sniffled, then gulped a breath.

[00:19:24] We've checked and checked the bracelets, the necklaces and the pins are gone.

[00:19:29] She was right.

[00:19:29] We had nothing, nothing to sell to pay for food for these fancy lodgings.

[00:19:34] No rings, no pearls, not even my favorite emerald pieces.

[00:19:38] The yellow satin bag with the valuables that the man I loved,

[00:19:41] my king had given me, had disappeared.

[00:19:44] Turning from her, I wanted to pretend nothing had happened,

[00:19:48] but I'd lived through so many things I wanted to wish away.

[00:19:52] Could this merely be another nightmare?

[00:19:55] We? Exile to Europe was to be salvation, renewal.

[00:19:59] I wanted to pray, but God wouldn't hear an angry woman.

[00:20:04] Thank you. In the author's note, you kind of delve deep into how

[00:20:09] you came to this story and built it.

[00:20:11] I know Queen Marie Louise plays a role in Island Queen,

[00:20:16] and then you really pick up her story fully here when she's in exile in Europe.

[00:20:21] And there's one line that you say where it's like,

[00:20:24] she didn't just live there, she reigned.

[00:20:26] Can you talk more about the community

[00:20:30] that was built that she reigned in,

[00:20:34] including with the brother of the man

[00:20:37] who ransacked her country in the name of slavery?

[00:20:40] Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[00:20:43] So the book after Island Queen is Sister Mother Warrior,

[00:20:46] and that talks about Marie Claire Bonheur and Grand Toilet,

[00:20:50] two women who shaped the Haitian Revolution.

[00:20:52] So Queen of Exiles takes place like five years after this.

[00:20:57] Jean-Jacques Dessalines, the hero who united

[00:21:01] all of the island and forced the French out.

[00:21:05] He's dead. His two right hand men, Pétian and Henri Christophe,

[00:21:11] are fighting for control and they end up splitting Haiti into two pieces.

[00:21:15] The bottom is a republic. The upper part is a kingdom.

[00:21:19] The Republic has the ideals that it's a group of educated men that will lead.

[00:21:25] But it's really the problem that was one of the earliest

[00:21:30] in why it took so long for the revolution to happen.

[00:21:34] You have the free coloreds having more education.

[00:21:38] They're the ones their massive fathers have sent to school.

[00:21:43] They're literate.

[00:21:44] And then you have those black generals who are being trained

[00:21:48] by the African techniques from a grand toya, warrior grand toya.

[00:21:53] They may not be literate.

[00:21:55] And there was always this thing where the coloreds.

[00:21:58] And this is a shame that we all black, but the coloreds

[00:22:02] think they're better than the black generals,

[00:22:03] even though they couldn't fight with crap.

[00:22:05] And there's treachery happens.

[00:22:07] You can get this split.

[00:22:08] So the coloreds go to the south.

[00:22:10] The blacks are in the north.

[00:22:13] And Henri Christophe, because he fought in the American Revolution,

[00:22:17] because he fought under Jean-Jacques Dessalines,

[00:22:20] he knows that France will come back.

[00:22:22] So he over militarizes and he is.

[00:22:26] You ever meet these people who are visionaries,

[00:22:28] but they're like so far ahead,

[00:22:31] they forget to tell the people underneath them.

[00:22:33] That's Henri Christophe.

[00:22:34] And Queen Louise sees the problem.

[00:22:37] He is forcing these people to, you know, literally build like everything

[00:22:42] that still exists that we know in Haiti is built because of Henri Christophe,

[00:22:46] which he forced the people to do it.

[00:22:48] They were brutalized to build the citadel.

[00:22:52] They built his palaces, Palaces Sansui.

[00:22:55] These are at the time, immaculate structures.

[00:22:58] The you kind of think of like Noah's Ark

[00:23:01] sitting on top of this high mountain full of cannons

[00:23:04] because he wanted to frighten France to never come back.

[00:23:07] And you get this man in my picture who's slowly going crazy

[00:23:12] because he's got these nightmares of France coming back

[00:23:16] and he's got these visions of if we are like the kings

[00:23:21] and queens of Europe, then they will respect us.

[00:23:24] They don't respect Africa, but they will respect us

[00:23:27] and they will partner with us and that will keep France away.

[00:23:32] And what people don't realize is he was actually somewhat successful

[00:23:35] because he got Russia on his side.

[00:23:37] England was doing back channels and they were all keeping France

[00:23:41] chill during the time frame.

[00:23:43] But when he dies and Pétian doesn't want to do anything

[00:23:47] that Henri was doing because that would validate his point of view,

[00:23:51] he just tries to make a side deal with France,

[00:23:54] thinking that's going to be better.

[00:23:56] And he saddles the entire nation with this debt

[00:24:00] that the peasants are going to pay off.

[00:24:03] It is ridiculous of the short sightedness

[00:24:06] of some of these individuals.

[00:24:07] But then you also helped on a grander scale because many nations

[00:24:11] wanted Haiti to fail.

[00:24:12] They did not want an independent black nation to survive

[00:24:17] because they knew it would inspire every enslavement movement

[00:24:22] to be overthrown and to set up nations around the world

[00:24:27] of freedom for black people.

[00:24:28] So you get all of this.

[00:24:32] I make no bones about Henri being a despot.

[00:24:35] He felt he had to be during that time frame.

[00:24:37] And he was like, I mean, he was going crazy.

[00:24:39] I mean, I can't help you on that one.

[00:24:42] But when you look back and you say they had vaccination programs,

[00:24:47] he had hired one of the top educators from the United States

[00:24:51] and brought him to Haiti.

[00:24:53] And there were times where you would go in the schools,

[00:24:55] these kids fresh off the habitations, which is a plantation in French.

[00:25:00] And they're learning English and French in the classrooms.

[00:25:03] I mean, if their story had lasted more than 10 years,

[00:25:07] it would be amazing to see what had happened

[00:25:09] because I think they had the power to win.

[00:25:12] But it would always fall on Queen Louise

[00:25:14] to make sure that people were with him

[00:25:17] because he continually failed at communicating effectively

[00:25:21] his message to the people, especially the women.

[00:25:25] For the people, can you tell them what year Haiti paid off the debt?

[00:25:29] It was in the 70s. OK.

[00:25:32] It was I mean, and so think about this.

[00:25:34] Nineteen seventy. We're talking about 1825,

[00:25:39] I think is when they commit to the debt.

[00:25:42] Mm hmm. And the sad part is,

[00:25:45] you know, Penteon was sitting on Henri's treasury.

[00:25:48] He had about 10 million dollars.

[00:25:51] If he had just given half of that,

[00:25:55] as a token payment, that might have been a way to settle this debt

[00:25:59] if they had to pay this debt, if they didn't want to raise arms against France.

[00:26:04] But he kept it for himself.

[00:26:06] This debt, I mean, I cannot look at the Eiffel Tower

[00:26:09] the way I used to when I know that it was the interest payments

[00:26:15] funded the Eiffel Tower, when I know this debt was recirculated

[00:26:18] and more interest and more interest and more interest and more interest

[00:26:22] screwing this poor nation.

[00:26:25] You know, I from France, it goes to France.

[00:26:28] It goes. But it's also the American banks, the Chase Bank system

[00:26:31] and all these sorts of things, because they started having fun with these.

[00:26:35] The reason that the United States invaded Haiti

[00:26:38] is because the bankers were worried about their money not getting repaid.

[00:26:42] It's heartbreaking when you go back and you look at

[00:26:45] what has happened in Haiti.

[00:26:47] And then at one point back in school, they would say, well,

[00:26:50] look at the Dominican Republic.

[00:26:52] They're doing so well.

[00:26:54] But the other side of the island.

[00:26:56] Well, if you take billions of dollars from one side of the island

[00:27:00] and still expect them to do roads and schools and hospitals,

[00:27:04] I think you are extremely disingenuous.

[00:27:08] That lack of investment year after year after year is why

[00:27:13] Haiti is behind. Had they not been robbed,

[00:27:17] had they been supported like every other winner of a war,

[00:27:22] they would be in a very different place.

[00:27:24] And once again, I look at the things that they were doing for the people.

[00:27:30] Yes, they were, you know, Henry was enriching himself.

[00:27:32] I, you know, no bones about that. Yes.

[00:27:36] But at the same time, he was trying to protect them.

[00:27:39] He was bringing an education.

[00:27:41] He knew that was going to make a difference in their lives.

[00:27:45] And throughout the novel, you piece

[00:27:48] what happened in the years of the kingdom

[00:27:52] down to Amri's suicide in the end,

[00:27:54] because you keep us waiting for that.

[00:27:56] I was deep in the Google and the Wikipedia trying to figure out

[00:27:59] what happened that she's not telling me.

[00:28:05] You know, because the way you structure a book is very, very important.

[00:28:09] Mm hmm. And many times, particularly when I do historical fictions,

[00:28:14] I want you to know the narrator is OK.

[00:28:18] So I give you her as an old woman telling the story.

[00:28:22] So, you know, she lives through whatever foolishness I take you through.

[00:28:26] Many people would focus on the bad pieces of her life and the number of losses.

[00:28:33] I wanted you guys to see the beauty of that kingdom that they built.

[00:28:37] I wanted you to see the love between Amri and Louise.

[00:28:43] And then you watch a woman trying to save a husband in spiral.

[00:28:48] I wanted you to see that dynamic.

[00:28:52] And if you lead with what happens, you're not as invested.

[00:28:56] You miss these different things.

[00:28:57] So for me, I wanted you to kind of see how she rebuilt.

[00:29:03] So even just the beginning where, you know, her jewels are missing.

[00:29:06] That was her plan C.

[00:29:08] You know, she starts as a hotelier's daughter.

[00:29:10] Then she's a military man's wife.

[00:29:12] And all of a sudden you make me quit. What?

[00:29:16] And now I'm an exile queen.

[00:29:18] So, you know, and now I'm exiled queen this broke

[00:29:21] because all my jewelry that I was going to sell to pay for the princesses is gone.

[00:29:27] So I take you on this journey to tell you the twin stories

[00:29:31] of what she was like as a queen, what that kingdom was like,

[00:29:34] what they were trying to do, as well as how did she survive?

[00:29:37] How did she make sure her daughters had everything?

[00:29:41] And then how does she relate on the world stage?

[00:29:43] Because, you know, Rhi was striving for that recognition

[00:29:47] and she actually gains it, which to me is a testament

[00:29:51] to who this woman really was.

[00:29:54] And you said something early in our conversation about money

[00:29:59] trumping race, and I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say that.

[00:30:04] I don't even know if I believe it, considering America.

[00:30:08] But when I think about Regency romances, I think first of Jane Eyre

[00:30:16] and then the spinoff book, Wide Sargasso Sea,

[00:30:20] which was about Mr.

[00:30:21] Rochester's first wife, his black wife from an island who had the money,

[00:30:25] who he locked up in the attic and all of the things. Right.

[00:30:29] Yeah. In your novel, money absolutely does trump

[00:30:34] Marie Louise's race because she's worried about for herself

[00:30:38] and her daughters, fortune hunters.

[00:30:40] Do you think that that is why she was given the titles

[00:30:45] and the access that she had was because of the fortune

[00:30:48] instead of being shunned like she experienced earlier in the novel

[00:30:53] where she's still feeling that tension of being black in this space?

[00:30:58] Oh, absolutely.

[00:30:59] When I look at modern historians and they try and tell her story,

[00:31:04] they focus on the grief and the fall of the kingdom.

[00:31:09] But when you look at the actual record and one of the reasons

[00:31:12] I put newspaper clippings in is because she was stalked by the media.

[00:31:17] She's one of the first media stock rolls everywhere this woman went.

[00:31:21] Talking about where she's going, who she's to who she's with,

[00:31:24] what hotel she stay in, how many attendance she's got,

[00:31:27] with her, she re-amasses Amri's fortune and that opens the doors.

[00:31:33] She's on the royal tour.

[00:31:35] Like when I look at where she's going in the time of year,

[00:31:39] that's the royal tour season.

[00:31:41] So she's joining the other other people in Europe

[00:31:44] as they're going to their summer homes or as they're going

[00:31:48] to the bath and the spas and all these sorts of things.

[00:31:52] And she's accepted the most triumphant part,

[00:31:56] which just made my soul leap, was when she's invited.

[00:32:01] She and her daughters are invited to the opera.

[00:32:04] It's an opera opening in Florence.

[00:32:06] And I noticed the person who wrote up,

[00:32:09] he's telling about where people are sitting and you've got former

[00:32:12] king of Westphalia, the former king of maybe Sweden or something like this.

[00:32:17] And she's going through his former kings and all of a sudden

[00:32:19] is Madame Christophe and her daughters and it was a prince.

[00:32:23] They're seated in order of precedence.

[00:32:25] King, king, queen, princesses, prince.

[00:32:30] Then behind them were other dignitaries and foreign nationals

[00:32:35] and then rich people, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:32:37] If she was excluded, she wouldn't be on the near the front row.

[00:32:41] Yeah, she'd be sitting in the back.

[00:32:44] And so they accepted her.

[00:32:46] They knew exactly who she was.

[00:32:48] There are plaques on hotels she stayed at.

[00:32:51] And all of this is usually left out of her journey.

[00:32:54] They talk about fall of kingdom, suicide,

[00:32:58] the things that happened to her children.

[00:33:01] And none of this woman who lived through it all

[00:33:04] outlived every one of her enemies.

[00:33:06] You know, life is messy.

[00:33:09] But I wanted to show you the beautiful parts, you know,

[00:33:12] but temperate with the reality of what's going on.

[00:33:15] And she did have losses.

[00:33:17] She loved people and lost them.

[00:33:19] That has to be reflected.

[00:33:22] But yet to see how she's moving about the world

[00:33:25] and not as some poor, I mean, one historian said something about,

[00:33:30] oh, because she's black, she must have been ostracized.

[00:33:33] And then they call her poor.

[00:33:34] You know, like they've put up at least in the past three years,

[00:33:38] two blue plaques symbolizing her residences.

[00:33:42] And one of them is in Melbourne, which is in one of the most expensive

[00:33:48] real estate places in London.

[00:33:51] This is high rent district.

[00:33:52] There is no way the good abolitionist is just going to buy two houses

[00:33:58] for this woman. No, she got her fortunes together.

[00:34:01] She recouped Henri's fortunes and she made sure his daughters

[00:34:06] lived every day as a princess.

[00:34:08] They did. And in addition to making sure that her daughters were OK,

[00:34:12] she found some love of her own.

[00:34:15] Like the book is real spicy in the middle toward the end.

[00:34:18] And we talked about Madame Christophe's love affair.

[00:34:21] Yes, the prince.

[00:34:23] Yes, he is. This is and the funny part.

[00:34:26] This is all true.

[00:34:27] I know that I was like, oh, it gets spicy.

[00:34:30] Not in the bathhouse.

[00:34:32] Yeah. Now, the details of how everything went down.

[00:34:35] That's my imagination. OK.

[00:34:39] But I do know the woman liked water.

[00:34:42] I do know that she and Henri had that big cop tub

[00:34:45] on the balcony from their bedroom.

[00:34:48] I kind of figured out when they went to spas,

[00:34:51] that just seems natural for me.

[00:34:54] She liked water. It makes sense.

[00:34:56] It tracks. I can follow.

[00:34:59] And just for her to to find love again,

[00:35:02] to allow herself to love again, you know,

[00:35:06] I think that's that's an amazing moment.

[00:35:09] That's an amazing moment.

[00:35:10] I think what I love the most about the novel

[00:35:14] is because Haiti is often, I think,

[00:35:18] thought of or put off as the world's problem child

[00:35:23] with all of the things, the dictators, the earthquakes,

[00:35:26] the famine, the gangs, the drugs, the whatever.

[00:35:29] It's always put into this light as it's the country

[00:35:33] that can never get it together.

[00:35:36] And I didn't ever know that Haiti had a kingdom.

[00:35:39] I'd only ever heard of it as a republic.

[00:35:42] And there's not a lot taught about Caribbean history

[00:35:46] in westernized developed countries.

[00:35:49] And let alone, I think, in the Caribbean,

[00:35:52] like they're still learning the colonizers history.

[00:35:55] And so recontextualizing and reframing the narrative

[00:35:59] around Haiti, I truly, truly appreciate it,

[00:36:01] because I think what we only get is, you know,

[00:36:05] the revolution, the revolution. They were the first.

[00:36:07] And then it's like, maybe we don't talk about anything else.

[00:36:10] Why was it important for you to really dig

[00:36:15] into the history of this island nation,

[00:36:18] despite its problems and the flaws of its early leaders,

[00:36:21] to show that it's not Haiti that has been the problem.

[00:36:25] It's the rest of the world.

[00:36:27] One, I think Haiti gets a raw deal all the time

[00:36:31] and people excuse away the consequences of colonialism,

[00:36:35] the consequences of racism as their fault.

[00:36:39] Now, this is not to take away from any of the corruption

[00:36:42] and foolery that, you know, just in general,

[00:36:44] or just the absolute jealousies

[00:36:47] that have existed amongst peoples.

[00:36:50] That is evident in any population, any culture,

[00:36:54] any race, you name it.

[00:36:56] But for me, just to know viva la revolution

[00:37:01] and to find out that women were so instrumental

[00:37:05] as a part of the revolution was eye opening.

[00:37:09] Haiti's center was a power center, a cultural power center.

[00:37:14] They had opera.

[00:37:15] I mean, many of the people during the revolution

[00:37:18] leave and go to Louisiana.

[00:37:19] And, you know, it infuriated me.

[00:37:23] I'd read the French and she's just this real unassuming

[00:37:28] woman, a couple lines in one of the histories.

[00:37:31] And then to find out later that woman was the queen

[00:37:34] and the infuriating part is how modern historians

[00:37:37] are too lazy to do the research.

[00:37:39] I am an engineer, OK?

[00:37:41] I've been metal.

[00:37:43] I work with lasers, but yet I can do research

[00:37:48] to figure out and put this woman's life back together

[00:37:50] and to know that, no, she was not a burden on society.

[00:37:54] She wasn't ostracized.

[00:37:56] She was a queen in exile, but still a queen.

[00:38:01] Mm hmm. I wanted people to see that beauty.

[00:38:05] I wanted people to be.

[00:38:08] Just to know this, and I think if you understand

[00:38:11] where Haiti has come from,

[00:38:13] then you can see that it can be that way again. Yeah.

[00:38:17] And it is going to I firmly believe it is the women.

[00:38:19] The women are going to put the country back in its proper place.

[00:38:24] It's got to come from the women.

[00:38:25] There have been so many revolutions in the West Indies.

[00:38:28] This one is the only one is successful.

[00:38:30] It is because 50 percent of the fighters are women.

[00:38:34] But we got to know this history and I mean, everyone, not just the Haitians.

[00:38:38] Everyone needs to know this history

[00:38:40] because I think you will look at history differently.

[00:38:43] We as all people can be a people of beauty and violence.

[00:38:48] We can be intellectually astute and stupid as hell.

[00:38:52] We can be this cosmic mixture of success and failures.

[00:38:59] We are all of it.

[00:39:00] And there's no shame in our past.

[00:39:04] People want to shamed and not talking about it.

[00:39:06] But the history is nothing to be ashamed of.

[00:39:09] We need to learn from it because history will repeat.

[00:39:12] And talking about how I'm assuming non-black

[00:39:16] or people of color, modern historians frame Marie Louise as

[00:39:22] just a footnote, really, with a couple of lines about her story.

[00:39:25] And you've given her the full context of her humanity.

[00:39:28] It makes me wonder if you believe that she is treated that way as a cast off,

[00:39:34] that Haiti is treated as a cast off because black people

[00:39:39] in general are treated by cast off because we are not considered to be the victors.

[00:39:44] The victor tells a story.

[00:39:47] And for a long time, we started our conversation talking about

[00:39:51] traditional publishing and access for a long time.

[00:39:54] If you wanted a story on history, it had to have

[00:39:57] American enslavement with somebody else saving us

[00:40:02] because that was acceptable in publishing.

[00:40:05] Yes, other people did come and help liberate enslaved peoples all over the place.

[00:40:12] But sometimes enslaved people rose up and sometimes they liberated themselves.

[00:40:16] And sometimes they built a country that had beauty and had ugly

[00:40:23] and had everything else that comes with nation building.

[00:40:27] And we need to know it and we need to appreciate the good

[00:40:32] and we need to know the bad.

[00:40:33] So one, history doesn't repeat itself.

[00:40:35] And two, we need to take pride in everything.

[00:40:38] And even the most brutal parts of our history, we survived it.

[00:40:43] People survived it.

[00:40:45] We're in a much different place now than we were then.

[00:40:48] So that just means the human experience continues to get better.

[00:40:53] Yes. So now I want to move to a speed round and a game

[00:40:56] before I let you go for the afternoon.

[00:40:59] What is your favorite book?

[00:41:04] That's like choosing between children, right?

[00:41:08] Maya Angelou's I Know Why The Cage Bird Sings.

[00:41:13] I love Beverly Jenkins.

[00:41:15] Something Like Love is one of my all time favorites.

[00:41:19] Guilty of Love by Pat Simmons is another one of my favorites.

[00:41:22] Octavia Butler's Kindred is amazing.

[00:41:25] I think, yeah, those those I think at this moment in time.

[00:41:31] Who is your favorite author?

[00:41:33] OK, now it's more children you want to split.

[00:41:36] Kristen Higgins is one of my favorite authors.

[00:41:39] Beverly Jenkins is one of my favorite authors.

[00:41:42] Hilary Mantle was one of my favorite authors.

[00:41:47] Sue Grissom was one of my favorite authors.

[00:41:49] What is your favorite time period in history?

[00:41:53] 1750 to 1830s.

[00:41:56] We'll call it the extended Regency slash Georgian period.

[00:42:01] What do you think is the best book to movie or television series adaptation?

[00:42:06] 1995 Pride and Prejudice.

[00:42:08] I am one of those girlies.

[00:42:11] The same ones that you mocked earlier in the conversation.

[00:42:17] If Queen of Exiles or when Queen of Exiles gets the screen treatment,

[00:42:21] who would you want to play your main characters?

[00:42:24] Oh, my gosh.

[00:42:25] Lapita, I think, would be a very interesting Queen Louise.

[00:42:33] I've been introduced to some younger actors that could be amazing.

[00:42:40] Akhil Largo, I think, could be Henri Christophe's The Young Years.

[00:42:46] Deborah Koya from Them.

[00:42:48] She could be...

[00:42:50] There's a good allotment of folk.

[00:42:54] If money were no object, where would you go?

[00:42:57] Where would you live and what would you do?

[00:43:00] Hmm. I would probably still live here,

[00:43:03] except the house would be three times the size of the house

[00:43:06] because I'd have a huge library and a much bigger office.

[00:43:13] But I would I would travel.

[00:43:15] I want to go to Greece again.

[00:43:18] Bulgaria was amazing on the Black Sea.

[00:43:21] It was epic.

[00:43:23] I would love to go to Lagos.

[00:43:27] I'd love to hit some South Africa.

[00:43:30] I would just love to just be on a tour for a year

[00:43:34] and just go to all of these wonderful places,

[00:43:37] places in the Caribbean, places in Africa, all over Europe.

[00:43:41] Just I would love to hit every country that likes black folk.

[00:43:48] I'm not trying to go and have one of those experiences.

[00:43:51] Girls, do not go to X, Y, Z. No, no.

[00:43:54] I want to know. I want to go to places where we like the black people.

[00:44:01] Name three things on your bucket list.

[00:44:04] Hmm. Going to South Africa, going to Alaska,

[00:44:09] going to the premiere of Island Queen.

[00:44:13] Amen. I love that.

[00:44:15] What brings you joy?

[00:44:16] My family, my God, just writing.

[00:44:20] I geek out and I can sit for hours and just write.

[00:44:25] I love it. I love book clubs.

[00:44:28] I love listening to what people come up with

[00:44:33] when they read the same thing I wrote.

[00:44:35] Sometimes what they come up with is way better than what I came up with.

[00:44:41] And what brings you peace?

[00:44:43] Oh, a good cup of coffee early in the morning.

[00:44:46] When it's quiet, walking out on my porch, just listening to the birds.

[00:44:52] So our game is called Rewriting the Classics.

[00:44:54] Classic is however you define it.

[00:44:57] Name one book you wished you would have written.

[00:45:01] Wish I had written Sanditon

[00:45:04] because I'd have finished it.

[00:45:07] I know how I did it.

[00:45:09] Homegirl would get everything.

[00:45:11] Miss Lam would get everything.

[00:45:14] Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it?

[00:45:18] I would change the ending of Gone with the Wind.

[00:45:21] Wow. And name a book that you think is overrated and why?

[00:45:28] I don't have a really.

[00:45:31] Yeah, I don't.

[00:45:33] Because, you see, I understand even the most awful book, right?

[00:45:39] I understand somebody put through some effort.

[00:45:41] And the journey to get that thing published and the pride, you know,

[00:45:46] that is now except for there's a books.

[00:45:50] They tried to make Colonel Sanders a romance hero.

[00:45:54] So they're all called chicken fried something.

[00:45:57] Those should be burned.

[00:45:59] Just burn them.

[00:46:00] Just burn the Colonel Sanders.

[00:46:02] Colonel Sanders romance books.

[00:46:04] Burn it.

[00:46:06] It's crazy.

[00:46:07] But for everything else, I respect.

[00:46:10] Even if I may disagree, I respect the craft.

[00:46:13] I respect the time and commitment an author put and the bravery it takes to put your

[00:46:21] work out there for scrutiny or somebody to come back and say, I hate this mess.

[00:46:26] This is trash.

[00:46:29] I respect that.

[00:46:30] So no, I don't have a book.

[00:46:31] I don't have a I don't have.

[00:46:33] Other than the Colonel Sanders series because of the Colonel Sanders romances,

[00:46:37] because that was the story.

[00:46:38] I believe with the Colonel Sanders romances.

[00:46:40] My final question for you today, when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors,

[00:46:46] what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left

[00:46:51] behind?

[00:46:52] I would want somebody to write that Vanessa Riley cared about every word she printed.

[00:47:01] Maybe.

[00:47:02] Maybe.

[00:47:03] Maybe.

[00:47:04] Maybe.

[00:47:05] She printed.

[00:47:07] Made it matter.

[00:47:09] Big thank you to Vanessa Riley for being here today on Black and Published.

[00:47:13] Make sure you check out Vanessa's latest novel, Queen of Exiles out now from William

[00:47:19] Morrow.

[00:47:20] And if you're not following Vanessa, check her out on the socials.

[00:47:23] She's at Vanessa Riley on Twitter and Vanessa Riley author on Instagram.

[00:47:30] That's our show for the week.

[00:47:32] If you like this episode and want more Black and Published, head to our Instagram page.

[00:47:37] It's at Black and Published and that's BLK and Published.

[00:47:43] There I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Vanessa about the Bridgerton

[00:47:48] effect and whether she feels responsible for opening the doors to diverse cast and

[00:47:53] Regency romance.

[00:47:55] Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:47:59] I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be Ashton Latimore, author of

[00:48:04] the novel All We Were Promised.

[00:48:06] This is a story of a deeply polarized time in American history where people are having

[00:48:12] these deeply entrenched disagreements about what it is to be a person, what it is

[00:48:16] to be free, what life should even look like here, what should people be allowed

[00:48:20] to do, who should be allowed to consider themselves part of our country, our community.

[00:48:25] But nothing gets solved until a huge bloody conflict that culminates in the Civil War,

[00:48:32] which is a conflict that didn't actually solve anything.

[00:48:36] That's next week on Black and Published.

[00:48:39] I'll talk to you then. Peace.