Empathy & Understanding to Heal with Kim Coleman Foote

[00:00:00] I didn't want to give up so many times because I'm like this is just ridiculous. I see other people getting published left and right, left and right, and why isn't it my turn? When is my turn gonna come? What's good?

[00:00:30] Kim called from her collective family memory to understand the origin point of abuse, not just in her family but within the Black community, writ large.

[00:00:40] Are they evil or are there actions evil? And where did that come from? It came from somewhere and if we don't look at that history, we don't understand how we fixed that and stopped that, right?

[00:00:51] So it's like again this is psychology, it's behavior, where are the roots of that behavior coming from?

[00:00:58] Kim's journey to telling her family story is one that began as she was working on another novel. How her personal interest in the early 2000s contributed to her literary debut some 20 years later. Plus, how she got over her own jealousy of other writers whose books were coming out before her.

[00:01:17] Kim, after querying agents and she was like 12, Kim explains what it feels like to hit the home run of her dreams. That and more is next when Black and published continues.

[00:01:29] Kim, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:43] Oh, I've known since I was a little girl growing up in Jersey. I basically wrote my first story when it was about seven years old and it's continued since then.

[00:01:54] Was writing always encouraged in your family or was it something that you found your way back to as you got older?

[00:02:01] No, one of my family was a writer but we had lots of storytellers. So I heard stories from my family since I was little girl.

[00:02:09] And I guess just hearing those stories, my brother and I also used to do drawings together. We used to make up little stories.

[00:02:16] And so when I wrote the first story, I was like, oh, this is cool. And so I just kept going from there. In fact, at some point I wanted to be the youngest person to publish a book, a novel in this country.

[00:02:27] And so I first queried an agent when I was about 12 years old.

[00:02:31] Wow. I have never met anyone who was so committed, so young, so yes, I just want to know what was that like querying an agent at 12.

[00:02:43] I just, I had so much confidence in my writing and my abilities because like I said, I would share my little drawings and stories with my classmates even in elementary school.

[00:02:53] And I remember it would just be like people be so excited, let me see, let me see lining up to read or look at my things.

[00:03:00] So, you know, I guess like getting the attention was encouraging. But then also like hearing from teachers, you know, who kept telling me, oh, you have a vivid imagination, you ever way with words.

[00:03:11] You know, so having my mother, you know, would always say like, oh, writing is your gift, telling stories is your gift that no one can take away from you. So I was just kept that to heart. And you know, I just, I wanted to be that person who was telling these stories and entertaining people in the beginning, you know, when I was young.

[00:03:28] And then as I got older, like when I went into college, it was more about educating. I was learning, you know, these little known facts about black history, taking black studies courses, for example, and just, you know, learning so much about you and teeth, you know, Tulsa.

[00:03:43] And so I wanted to get that information out to people as well.

[00:03:48] So then how did your storytelling and love for history carry you as you move from college and became older and started working in the world?

[00:03:58] Well, I think it was just, it was always present. I was always fascinated with history again since I was little girl because I heard those stories about my mother and her cousins would talk about growing up their life in like the 1940s. I grew up into 80s.

[00:04:12] So the 1940s was very different, right? So my parents were old school. So like they they still call the refrigerator the ice box, right? I always had that word and all these old timey words in my vocabulary since I was a kid because my parents, you know, still use a lot of those terms.

[00:04:29] So I was just always again fascinated with like other times the past. There's also like certain people in my family who I consider like the keepers of memory and history and family stories.

[00:04:41] And so I'm also an inheritor of that because I had like my mother and uncertain on, you know, who would like always tell the stories. This is where we came from.

[00:04:50] This is the names of our ancestors and repeating these stories because they thought it was worthwhile to remember. And so for me, it was just like passing the torch or carrying the torch along.

[00:05:01] So then when did the idea come to you to say, you know what? All these stories that have been shared with me in my family. I want to put them in a book.

[00:05:14] So the first instance of this book actually came out when I was in my MFA program in Chicago at Chicago State University.

[00:05:22] And I had an assignment was actually for a creative nonfiction class to write a story based off of a photograph.

[00:05:30] And I chose a photo of my grandfather's three sisters as little girls. I don't know how I chose it, but that's the one I had.

[00:05:37] And I have been wanting to write about my family for a long time. I didn't know if it would be fiction. If it'll be nonfiction because there was so many interesting stories. A lot of trauma and unprocessed trauma in my family, even to this generation.

[00:05:52] And so when I had that photograph, all of a sudden the little girls voice just spoke to me. And she said, I am afraid that I'm under his camera and I was like, what?

[00:06:03] And the words just kept pouring, you know, and usually for me, you know when I write fiction. I don't hear words, you know, I have a lot of friends who are poets and they always talk about the word coming to them.

[00:06:14] I see movies in my head, you know, so the fact that I was getting these words and it was coming from this little girl and then they just kept pouring pouring.

[00:06:24] And so I rushed to write them down and the whole thing came out in like minutes. And I was like, whoa, this was interesting because this was also a person in my family, you know, she was villainized.

[00:06:36] No one ever had a good work for her. She was, you know, means she was drunk. She was nasty. She was evil.

[00:06:44] You know, and so here is this little girl talking about her experience and something traumatic that happens to her.

[00:06:50] Right. And this is why she looks even defiant and quote evil in this, in this picture at such a young age.

[00:06:57] And I just had a lot of empathy for her. Right. And I was like, oh, maybe this is why she was like that as an adult.

[00:07:04] And I felt like that was kind of like my spiritual permission to keep going, you know, because it's like, OK, you can do this.

[00:07:12] So I started taking other family photographs and trying to like build stories around them because, you know, some of the people in my family, I only knew like very basic things about like one of my great grandfather is died of lockjaw.

[00:07:26] That's really all I knew he died of lockjaw. He was a, he worked in construction. He was helping build a movie house and he got cut on a rusty nail or pipe or something like that. That's all I knew.

[00:07:37] He was one of the first relatives that actually found on the census when I started doing my genealogical research, which was not for the book.

[00:07:44] That was just my complete hobby and I didn't even know I didn't even think out fine my family in the records. But when I started doing my research at the National Archives in DC, I found them.

[00:07:56] And I was just an awe like, oh my god, these poor forming sharecropping people, you know who went to school to the third grade. You know could not read and write their children of slaves all this kind of stuff, but they're here in these records, you know.

[00:08:11] So I just kept searching and searching and finding so much records. So by the time I realized that I wanted to write a book, I had all that genealogical information.

[00:08:21] I'd also interviewed relatives to get you know more information but that was again for my personal interest. But once I was writing the book, I had that material to build off of just to give me some more details to go on.

[00:08:35] So now between the time that you wrote that first story in your MFA program to win, you really like go deep into the process of writing the novel. What was that timeframe like when you were doing all this research is on your own.

[00:08:52] So it's a long timeframe. I started the research around 2000, the genealogical research, right. But the first instance of it that that story with the little girl's voice came in 2004.

[00:09:05] Because in between then I was working on a whole other novel which my publisher is publishing next.

[00:09:10] But you know that novel had already already been in works before 2000. So I was working on that MFA program.

[00:09:18] My thesis was actually a memoir. So I spent a lot of time in Ghana because my next novel was set there.

[00:09:25] Looking at the slave trade in the 18th century and so I also did a full bright fellowship and I was there for like almost a year during research interviewing people kind of the same a lot of the same things that I did with my family history.

[00:09:38] But basically 2010 was when I finished my God a novel about the slave trade.

[00:09:44] And so I had a residency and Vermont. And so at that point, I was like, okay, I'm done with this book. I'm going to move on to it wasn't even a book.

[00:09:53] I didn't I didn't think of Coleman Hill as a book, you know, I was just like I'm just writing these stories about my family and just getting them down on paper because they're so fascinating and powerful when to share them.

[00:10:05] And so it wasn't until I read Elizabeth Strauss olive kit rich and I was like, oh, so my great grandmother is like olive in the sense that in that novel.

[00:10:18] Olive I think gets maybe like one chapter from her perspective. Everything else is other people, you know, but even though she might not even be there you feel her presence.

[00:10:27] It's like a black hole that like sucks and everything then everything revolves around her. And I realized that my great grandmother was the person my family who was doing that.

[00:10:36] And so once I figured that out, I was like, oh, now I see the possibility for an actual book.

[00:10:41] And so I had you know been thinking of different threats in my family and trusting like historical details and some of those things dropped out because it didn't relate to that central theme.

[00:10:51] So that's when it kind of all came together, but I can't even remember what year that was because I was working on so many other things.

[00:10:59] You know, so this common hill was like kind of my Johnny come lately surprise.

[00:11:04] Yeah, I mean, we'll even say you know you wrote the first story for your MFA program when you thought you were focusing on memoir 2004 2005 is it's now almost 20 years later that this book is coming out.

[00:11:19] So how does that feel and what has your publishing process been like?

[00:11:25] I mean, from someone who wanted to publish a book when they were 12 right.

[00:11:30] It's been a long rocky road.

[00:11:35] You know, and it's been frustrating. It's definitely been frustrating. It's been so many years of just like grueling grueling labor.

[00:11:42] You know, not only the writing itself which can be grueling but also just the process of you know querying agents and querying publishers.

[00:11:50] I always believe in my writing. I believe in myself. I believe in my stories. And that's what kept me going, you know, and other people also believing in me.

[00:11:57] You know, like I would have people who you know hadn't seen me in 10 plus years and do like run into each other.

[00:12:03] Oh, you're still writing. I'll think about you're still writing because I always knew you would blah blah blah blah.

[00:12:08] You know, and so like having having those people like give me that boost of confidence because I didn't want to give up so many times because I'm like this is just ridiculous.

[00:12:17] I see other people you know getting published left and right left and right.

[00:12:21] And why isn't it my turn when is my turn going to come?

[00:12:24] And so you know, and then I was winning a lot of like fellowships in the war. It's recognizing my work even since my memoir.

[00:12:32] And just thinking again like I'm winning all the stuff people recognizing my talent they're recognizing the writing the stories the characters give me these amazing gushing notes.

[00:12:41] But when is someone going to say finally I want to publish you?

[00:12:45] And so basically it happens so quickly what had happened and happened like so quickly that I'm still kind of like processing it because my my book deal basically went down a little bit over a year ago.

[00:13:01] And so and my publisher like I said they bought both of my my novels which was like the dream.

[00:13:09] So come in here in the book in the novel and Ghana.

[00:13:11] Yes, my God a novel as well which is slated to come out in 2025 if I you know get it done on time let's let's hope.

[00:13:19] So it's kind of surreal like I'm super excited, but it's also surreal because it's been so many years you know one thing this thing I describe it like you know when you have that dream and it's like I won the lot oh.

[00:13:33] And you have all the money in your hand he could feel it like oh my God oh my God and then you wake up and it's like oh man it was just a dream.

[00:13:40] You know, but this is like no it's actually real it actually did finally happened.

[00:13:45] How did you motivate yourself to keep going despite the discouragement?

[00:13:52] I actually had the stop going to readings unless it was a dear dear friend of mine who was publishing a book because a lot of my friends did publish their books along the way.

[00:14:01] I stopped going to readings I stopped going to book stores as much as I am a book addict.

[00:14:06] I just kind of took myself out of that world because I had so much jealousy honestly and I was like this jealousy is not productive for me to write you know because ultimately I have to just keep on writing producing and proving my game.

[00:14:21] So I just basically like removed myself from that world kind of really staying out of the mix and just keeping my head down I was like the only thing that you can control is what you put out.

[00:14:32] You can't control who's going to publish you who's who's going to want to publish you any of that stuff so I focused on what I could control.

[00:14:40] And I just kept coming back to you know why I had to ask myself constantly like why are you doing this why are you writing all this and it was like okay i'm committed to telling the story right.

[00:14:52] And so at some point I had to tell myself like you know even if no one is going to publish me i'm committed to telling you stories and you know that's ultimately what got me through which is refocusing.

[00:15:03] I mean you say your deal went down a year ago and now your book is out so like that's that is very, very quickly for publishing but then also your publishing through zando through the Sarah Jessica Parker imprint.

[00:15:15] Yes Harry Bradshaw herself so what has it been like to go from you know these years of toiling having to take yourself out of.

[00:15:25] Out of you know the mix of the book world to now having a debut with such great fanfare and celebrity support.

[00:15:34] I've always dream big like oh if I could have my way would be this and this and this but like I said I just started to like yeah it's probably not going to happen so again as long as I get a book out you know i'll be satisfied that was like what I was working on when I want to even got my agents.

[00:15:49] And even that process has happened so quickly with this book, whereas I have been searching for an agent since I got my MFA in 2005 and it happened like lightning speed.

[00:16:00] And I have an amazing agent also I've an amazing editor you know Sarah Jessica Parker has been like just again amazing amazing amazing it's been like a dream come true and beyond wildest dreams i tell people.

[00:16:15] But I always had an image of myself like hitting a baseball out of the ballpark you know because I was like all these years all these years of I work so hard to work so hard you know when it comes I better like hit the Homer hitting the home and I was just like oh.

[00:16:29] I hit the Homer and it just like like every every step in a way was like oh I got to eight oh I hit that Homer and then the book oh I hit another Homer and so it's just like oh my god that that visualization is finally finally you know coming to fruition.

[00:16:44] So yeah I was I was literally so so close to giving up but just continued holding holding that vision.

[00:16:53] Yeah one more question before we get to the book.

[00:16:55] You say like people were pestering you to finish the family book I assume that was members of your family but really no.

[00:17:06] Oh okay but I was wondering since you were writing like you know these ancestral stories and I think you talk of the

[00:17:13] artists or the authors note about you know like you know hearing the voice you know I ain't scared of that matter his camera yeah then starting to hear all the other voices did you ever have your

[00:17:22] characters like persisting you like hey you should be writing our story.

[00:17:26] No I had that happen from my gun a novel but this I think the ancestors are just there they're just there with me and so even the fact like not letting

[00:17:36] me give up you know but I didn't necessarily hear their voices like he's right as because I think honestly maybe some

[00:17:43] people don't want these stories out there but I'm trying to represent my family with like I said empathy and so like in my

[00:17:53] book I don't consider there's no evil person in my book right they're people who did evil things but

[00:17:59] there's no evil people in this book because I'm exploring where that where those evil things those evil behaviors come from what are

[00:18:07] the roots and once you go to the roots and usually that that's in their childhood somewhere you know and you have this

[00:18:13] tender young child something happens to them they witness something you know they they experience

[00:18:19] something and yeah I feel like I created a rich rich portrait of who they are you know but it's not like someone was like yeah right

[00:18:29] about my trauma all right so let's get into this rich portrait that you've created can you read something

[00:18:38] from Coleman Hill yeah and then we'll dive into your family your Coleman Hill opens with Kim's two great

[00:18:47] grandmothers who fled the south for vox hall New Jersey however once they reached the north they both lose their

[00:18:54] husbands and are left to raise their children alone exploring the blood ties that bind and the ones that don't

[00:19:01] Kim chronicles the cycles of abuse that were perpetrated throughout the generations in hopes to set her family free

[00:19:08] here's Kim so I'm going to read a section from when one of my great grandmother's sees her husband

[00:19:15] for the first time after arriving with you New Jersey. The gym you found in New Jersey wasn't the same man who left Alabama when

[00:19:24] you got to the Pennsylvania station in Newark you ain't recognize them until they took off his bowler hat and weighed it at you

[00:19:29] and the children gone was the overalls the ill-fitting great church jacket the unruly puff of hair like his

[00:19:36] papys he wore a Taylor pinstripe suit that highlighted the honey color of his eyes the jacket was flipped open to

[00:19:43] show off a watch chain dangling from his best pocket his slick back hair reflected the sunlight just as much

[00:19:49] as his shoes he leaned against the cart hitched to a horse which you later learned he borrowed from his

[00:19:55] brother you notice colored and white ladies alike sneaking lenses as they passed and your chest puffed out for

[00:20:02] for the first time you realize what all of them girls back in Houston County Alabama used to see in him

[00:20:08] just as quick fear prickle your stomach suddenly you realize you never made much of Jim's looks before

[00:20:14] because you hope that if you ignore them white men might not notice Jim's effect on they women either

[00:20:20] that your member you was in a north could nobody bother Jim he could live a long life unlike

[00:20:27] him all's husband and so could your son Jebby but when you got up close to Jim the dark half moons beneath his

[00:20:34] eyes gave you pause that night in bed Jim held you close it and he ever done and put his nose in your

[00:20:41] hair and told you he missed that snout how it reminded him of down home you snickered out of discomfort and drew

[00:20:47] your head away what Jim you mean it's how do you miss it back there he sighed I got more stuff up here more

[00:20:55] money than I ever had three suits and three pairs of shoes a watch I found us this house I've been going to see

[00:21:02] a picture show every month but I ain't been happy up here Celia thank you you mentioned earlier this book has a

[00:21:10] lot of trauma in it yes it really does but this line on page 75 where it believe it's the character

[00:21:21] Grykolman reflecting back on her parents yeah she says you understood then why your mom up and deserted any

[00:21:29] man who threatened to lay hands on Johnny it wasn't about toughening up color boys it was preparing them to die

[00:21:36] and I said my god yes because I think a lot of black families are still trying to contend with what is

[00:21:49] discipline what is it yes how do we gentle parent all of those things and reading that line I mean

[00:21:59] echoes with so many people have said it's it of that you know the family should rather beat you and put you in your

[00:22:05] place then you know let a white person do it or for you to be lynched or preparing to walk that line but seeing

[00:22:12] those words on the page just did something to me so so what you were saying about there are no evil people they are just

[00:22:22] evil deeds yes and saying that knowing how much abuse is in this book how did you come to have that kind of

[00:22:32] empathy for your for your family or is it because they are your family that you have that empathy no no no

[00:22:38] I just think like again once I started to understand where these behaviors came from and then you know

[00:22:50] you could say the same of white folks who committed the abuse right are they evil or are their actions evil

[00:22:56] and where did that come from it came from somewhere it just doesn't pop up and like people like oh I'm

[00:23:02] evil and like abuse some people and then slave some people it has a history right and if we don't look at

[00:23:08] that history we don't understand how we fix that and stop that right so it's like again this is psychology

[00:23:16] there's a lot of psychology going on right and even if you you don't think oh well psychology is a

[00:23:22] Western thing it's behavior where are the roots of that behavior coming from and so again I don't think that we can

[00:23:30] fix whatever or like even even acknowledge if we don't look at where these things came from you know because

[00:23:40] that whole thing about with things you know like and my old family I grew up hearing like I'm going to

[00:23:46] just take him for granted because that's what you do you whip someone when you get out of control you whip

[00:23:52] them hard or you don't cry you know because if you cry I'm going to give you more another reason to cry

[00:23:58] about so you learn to suck up your tears cut off your emotions which is just highly like unhealthy right

[00:24:06] but at the same time unhealthy for you your personal development but then how do you survive out on the street

[00:24:12] right when you are confronted by a white or even an authority figure you know who has the instinct to

[00:24:20] gun you down just because of what you look like right and so I really really wanted to interrogate

[00:24:26] those things and make it crystal clear to people like where the stuff comes from and that we need

[00:24:32] to like really take a step back and think what we're doing even if we consider something like cultural

[00:24:40] oh

[00:24:42] your compassion and understanding of even white supremacy is making my teeth itch

[00:24:50] but I do understand what you're saying in that those first colonists who came to what became

[00:25:02] the United States did so out of their own oppression and then as soon as they had the opportunity

[00:25:12] to have time chance in power to oppress others it so it was a cycle of abuse you know they were recreating what had been done

[00:25:22] to them and so the thing the same thing that happens within families you know it's the same thing that plays out in the society also

[00:25:30] in acknowledging the cycles of abuse that we as humans suffer under not just black versus white or parents versus children

[00:25:40] or given the state that were in now between Israel and in Palestine how do you think is the best way to break these cycles

[00:25:52] because there's no real resolution at the end of Coleman Hill is just to tell the story like that man

[00:26:00] and you were under is now the mandate that the characters are under yeah but there's no

[00:26:06] into the harms that this family your family all of our families have caused

[00:26:14] mm-hmm I want that to differ because in Coleman Hill what I realize at a certain point is that a lot of the characters get these revelations

[00:26:22] you know through their journeys they kind of have a moment where they're turning like literally turning the mirror on themselves

[00:26:28] and saying like oh but wait what does that make me you know what did I do not everybody you know but a lot of them have these moments

[00:26:36] where it's like oh I'm seeing someone in a new way I'm seeing myself in a new way right and I think it begins there

[00:26:44] like it has to begin with the insight with the knowledge of what's what's happening because if you have the blinders on

[00:26:52] if you're continually to deny whatever sweeping things under the rug that's just going to make it worse

[00:26:58] it just keeps continuing right because you're not getting again to the root of the problem

[00:27:02] so I think the first thing is just the recognition and my hope is that my family can read this book

[00:27:08] and realize some things that they perhaps didn't realize people are because again they're still the blinders

[00:27:14] that are on but you know even beyond my family I'm hoping other people can look at this and say like oh

[00:27:20] we have that in our family we have a person like that in our family oh and this is why

[00:27:26] so getting even some understanding about someone as opposed to jumping quickly and saying oh that person's awful this person's

[00:27:34] mean this person's this and this and this you know you have so much going on including mental illness

[00:27:40] which people don't still talk about enough you know and not realizing like how a mental illness can

[00:27:46] cause someone to behave a certain way like that person's crazy that person's wow that person's a liar that person's

[00:27:52] what do we but it's like okay this person has a legit illness right and so if they had some proper therapy

[00:28:00] if they have proper medication other interventions their behavior could change just like night and day potentially right

[00:28:08] and then you would even have this this issue happening and maybe for that person if they're having a family

[00:28:14] maybe it stops there because they got intervention right so I think there is hope in that sense where someone

[00:28:22] it's just again that initial enlightenment and then beyond that it's like the communication right talking

[00:28:28] to each other and and dealing with a discomfort because with all of this history with trauma you have this comfort

[00:28:36] you know because you have someone who feels like a victim you know someone the person who feels like the victimizer

[00:28:42] also has the guilt right but then you have the person who has feels like the victim and they feel like they've been harms

[00:28:50] you know and so there's uncomfortable feelings in there you know there's people like well I'm right and you're wrong

[00:28:56] and so if we don't like get past those uncomfortable feelings if we don't lay things out on the table

[00:29:02] if other people can't have the empathy you know to step into someone else's shoes

[00:29:06] if the victimizer can't step into the victim's shoes and say like oh actually yeah that was kind of wrong what I said

[00:29:12] right or I wouldn't feel good if someone did that to me if we don't start having those perspectives then nothing changes

[00:29:20] so I'm hoping ultimately even those basic things can start happening for people.

[00:29:25] And now you said you had hopes that your family would read this book and you say is books based on your family

[00:29:32] and you include the family photographs you call it a biomethography to get a term from Audra Lord.

[00:29:38] Yes have you started to get feedback from your family and what has it been because I am very curious

[00:29:44] so far you know it's just kind of basic feedback just basic like I liked it I'm like okay

[00:29:52] and I mean like you know excerpts of the book have been published over the past couple years

[00:29:58] and I always sent them to my family especially if it were like you know featuring them or like their parents

[00:30:04] it was more or less kind of the same like oh that was interesting you know like okay but that's what you're saying

[00:30:10] like all right so you know so far there hasn't has a minute whole bunch

[00:30:16] but again I'm hoping as it kind of like sinks in that there'll be more communication and discussion

[00:30:22] and also like there are lots of cousins who don't even know a lot of these stories

[00:30:26] because of you know the rifts that happen in the family and people getting separated

[00:30:30] and not communicating with their parents or grandparents or whatever.

[00:30:33] And so a lot of these stories didn't get passed down to like I would say most of the people in my generation

[00:30:39] don't know these stories.

[00:30:41] And so for them it's kind of like learning for the first time some of these things you know

[00:30:46] and obviously there are things that I've invented you know but there are some snippets of like truth or you know stories

[00:30:52] that got passed down that they haven't heard.

[00:30:54] And so you know for me I've welcomed from my cousins to reach out to me like if you ever want to know something

[00:31:01] feel free to contact me you know that my mom or cousins are still living

[00:31:06] you know reach out to people and talk to them and investigate more if you want to learn something.

[00:31:11] You talked about the God of Novel a few times so.

[00:31:14] Yes let's put a bow on it.

[00:31:16] What is next Kim Coleman food?

[00:31:19] So yes next is saltwater sister.

[00:31:21] So this is my novel that I've working on for many years but it looks at the slave trade in West Africa.

[00:31:27] So it alternates between the 18th century mid 1700s and 1999.

[00:31:34] And it basically highlights women's stories of the slave trade which you don't really hear about so much.

[00:31:40] And you know I started this way way way before home going but that's a novel that you know people are most familiar with.

[00:31:46] So no about like the slave castles in West Africa particularly Ghana.

[00:31:50] But I'm also looking at the Dutch influence on the slave trade which a lot of people just don't know about because here we're always focused on the British and forget that like

[00:31:58] so many other European players you were involved in the slave trade and the slave trade stretch you know not only in this country but this whole entire hemisphere from North America all way down to the tip of South America and including the Caribbean.

[00:32:12] And so highlighting that's part of the slave trade as well.

[00:32:17] But I'm also looking at you know the European African relations that happened in West Africa because I originally thought that this novel would be.

[00:32:25] You know again it's kind of exploring the victim story of like women going through these horrors and going to the middle passage and then having experience here and the Americas.

[00:32:34] But then when I went to Ghana and did the research and interview local families in the town of El Nino where you have the oldest and largest of these slave castles that was built starting by the Portuguese all way back in 1482.

[00:32:48] And this castle is still there today standing.

[00:32:52] And I talked to people and I realized that there was so many fascinating stories in Almena itself that weren't widely advertised into stories that like blew my mind about especially the relationships that happened between Europeans and Africans because this is a time before like race and racism is really solidified right.

[00:33:13] And you read the old travel laws of the Europeans who were there at the time, you know you can see some cultural distinctions like the British for example.

[00:33:22] You know kind of had like the snotty attitude towards Africans is like okay we're trading with them but they're definitely below us beneath us and their backwards and unsubilies and barbaric and all this kind of stuff.

[00:33:33] And the Dutch and the Portuguese were a little bit like you know loser like yeah but you know they're women are fine so like you know and actually like this practice of having multiple wives.

[00:33:44] So you have white men who were living there who were following practices where they had multiple women that they were having children with including their official wise back in New York and building houses for these women which some of the houses are still an existence today right and people if you go up and down the west coast.

[00:34:02] You'll find so many people with European surnames and that's way you know coming back from the slave trade.

[00:34:08] So really talking about that whole history looking at the role of the royals you know what do they do to get the gold and the territory and all that kind of stuff so there was slave trading going on going on and some of these areas so looking at that.

[00:34:23] And then when I lived in Donna I basically was seeing remnants of like the slave trade just recreated and people's mentality is the quote culture.

[00:34:33] You know and I realized that there had to be a contemporary component to really talk about how history is just kind of repeating itself and could potentially get back to where it was again when people forget what happened, what came before them.

[00:34:46] So wanting to really emphasize that that history as well.

[00:34:51] So now want to switch to a speed round in a game before I let you go for what's quickly becoming the afternoon so first question, what is your favorite book?

[00:35:02] Oh God, I can't even say there's too many top laugh.

[00:35:10] Oh God, I just say authors.

[00:35:14] Who was your favorite author?

[00:35:16] I've said about there.

[00:35:18] Okay, what do you think is the best book to movie or TV show adaptation?

[00:35:24] Oh, everything is illuminated. I love the movie.

[00:35:28] Hate it.

[00:35:29] The book and finish the book.

[00:35:31] And it's about you know this like quirky dude who's like a genealogist.

[00:35:36] I think he's Jewish but I could so relate to him with his like family urging and family history and he goes to Eastern Europe to find them.

[00:35:46] So I can relate a lot to that because I've gone on the trail to find family like that.

[00:35:51] If you could live anywhere in the world where would it be?

[00:35:54] Oh, the Caribbean name three things on your bucket list.

[00:35:57] I want to go to Congo.

[00:35:58] I want to sky die and what I want to go to Antarctica also.

[00:36:05] And I hate cold.

[00:36:09] What brings you joy?

[00:36:12] And dance and particular.

[00:36:14] And what brings you peace on massage?

[00:36:17] Especially a massage in the Caribbean and the Sun.

[00:36:22] Like our game is called rewriting the classics.

[00:36:26] Classic is however you define it name one book you wish you would have written.

[00:36:32] That's really hard.

[00:36:34] Again, there are so many books.

[00:36:37] Maybe hard of darkness.

[00:36:38] Name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it?

[00:36:42] I can't even get anything.

[00:36:44] Get that one for now.

[00:36:45] Okay.

[00:36:46] And then name a book that you think is overrated or over taught.

[00:36:50] And why?

[00:36:51] Just thinking about all those books that are back in high school.

[00:36:57] The canon, you know, which did not feature people like me.

[00:37:01] I want to say something like the oh.

[00:37:06] Catcher in the right.

[00:37:07] So many people have said catcher in the right.

[00:37:09] This is hilarious.

[00:37:11] Oh my god.

[00:37:12] So many people have said catcher in the right.

[00:37:15] I hate it that book.

[00:37:17] I hate it that book.

[00:37:19] Yeah.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:21] That book.

[00:37:22] Yeah.

[00:37:23] So my final question for you today.

[00:37:25] When you are dead and gone and among the ancestors that you've written about.

[00:37:31] What would you like someone to say about the words and work that you've left behind for them?

[00:37:39] Oh wow.

[00:37:41] I would want to say that, you know, I open people's minds.

[00:37:46] I open people's minds and help people be more understanding and kinder to each other and heal.

[00:37:53] Yes.

[00:37:54] Help people heal.

[00:37:56] Yes.

[00:37:58] Big thank you to Kim Coleman foot for being here today on Black and Published.

[00:38:02] Make sure you check out Kim's debut novel, Coleman Hill, out now from SJP Lit, a Zando imprint.

[00:38:10] And if you're not following Kim, check her out on the socials.

[00:38:14] She's at Kim Coleman foot on Twitter.

[00:38:18] That's our show for the week.

[00:38:20] If you liked this episode and want more Black and Published, head to our Instagram page.

[00:38:26] It's at Black and Published and that's BLK and Published.

[00:38:31] There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Kim about how she kept going when she wanted to quit,

[00:38:38] including getting a pep talk from a friend who biked from Queens to Brooklyn just to make sure she didn't give up.

[00:38:45] Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:38:49] I'll highlight y'all next week when our guests will be K E Garland, author of the memoir

[00:38:55] in search of a self, memoir of a sex addict.

[00:38:59] There's like, came a time and I was like, oh no, I'm gonna have to write about sex addiction.

[00:39:03] But still it wasn't in search of a self.

[00:39:06] I was gonna write it like an epistolary.

[00:39:08] Like I had this diary and it was gonna be called diary of a sex addict, right?

[00:39:13] But it was gonna be like me confessing to my husband

[00:39:17] like, oh, I'm trying to tell you something but you know, here it is.

[00:39:21] I'm like, no, this is not right because I hadn't kept a diary.

[00:39:25] It was kind of inauthentic.

[00:39:26] You know you have to, you like cross the rinse of fiction when you do stuff like that

[00:39:31] and I wanted it to be as real as life.

[00:39:35] That's next week on Black and Published.

[00:39:37] I'll talk to you then. Peace.