Don't Doubt Yourself with Avery Cunningham

[00:00:00] Wealth Will Not Save You, The Right Name, The Right Clothes, The Right Ambition, Even The Right Love, Will Not Save You From The Threat That Is Coming Through A System, That Will Not Save You From The Larger Challenge, That The Change That Is Necessary Is Bigger

[00:00:17] Than Just One Person. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Avery Cunningham, author of the novel The Mayor of Maxwell Street.

[00:00:37] It's a retelling of the Great Gatsby set in 1920 Chicago and featuring the glitterati of the black elite with some underworld undertones. I did tell the story that I wanted to tell but it wasn't the story I had originally planned on.

[00:00:50] I think when I first started outlining and drafting, I was trying to tell something that was a little bit lighter, fluffier, more aggressively leaning into the romance than the love story and not so much into the historical realities of the time.

[00:01:06] In leaning into the history of the period, Avery discovered how writing about Chicago at the turn of the 20th century was really an opportunity to write about America. That's why she says both the Windy City and the USA are more bento box than melting pot.

[00:01:22] Plus, the reason Avery thinks the Great Gatsby is overrated even though it was the first source of inspiration for her novel and the ultimatum Avery gave herself about writing that was steeped in her own fears and doubts. That and more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:52] Avery, when did you know that you were a writer? Oh, wow. I think I've known that I've wanted to be a writer or at the very least the storyteller for as long as I've been aware of language and storytelling.

[00:02:05] My mom always likes to tell this example of when I was maybe three or four years old. I used to stand on this kitchen stool in our kitchen and just orate. I would tell these utterly stream of consciousness stories to some hidden

[00:02:21] audience as though I was in a Greek tragedy. But one day she stopped and she listened and she said, wow, this is actually impressively complex and interesting. And she wrote it down and she still has copies of those crazy three to four

[00:02:35] year old stories in boxes throughout our house. And that's just a prime example of how this person who I am today has I've always been this way. I think becoming a storyteller has always been my destiny.

[00:02:47] OK, so then what was the trajectory to from orating as an advanced toddler to actually publishing a book? Well, it was a very long journey. And of course, publishing is always a long journey. As I said, becoming a writer has always been my goal, my aspiration.

[00:03:04] It's what drove me through high schools, college, graduate school. But in terms of how I arrived at this point, it really was a few years ago where I was connected with my agent and had the opportunity to take on some new writing opportunities.

[00:03:17] And at that time I was in a bit of a crossroads. I had been in a full time job for a long time that was not related to writing, not related to creative writing or fiction at all.

[00:03:26] And I had to ask myself, OK, if is this something that you really want to do because you've been striving, you've been working, you've been essentially doing this your entire life and you're not published yet. And I gave myself a deadline.

[00:03:38] I said, if you're not published by 30, then you need to take all of this energy you've been giving to writing and really put it into your career, so to speak, grow up essentially and start earning an actual income and move on with your life.

[00:03:51] And so I said, OK, so 30 is the deadline. And I had a lot of great opportunities over the last few years for freelance editing and ghost writing and things like that. And it was in twenty twenty one when we sold the Merrick Maxwell Street

[00:04:06] on proposal actually and wrote it over the course of twenty twenty two in the twenty twenty three. And now the book is coming out within I think a week of my thirty first birthday. So right on schedule. So many thoughts.

[00:04:26] Similarly, I said that I had wanted to publish a book by the time I was thirty and my first novel came out when I was thirty one. It was self published. I am now thirty seven. I got my deal last year when I was thirty six.

[00:04:43] And so my first traditionally published book will come out by the time I'm thirty eight. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. But I give all that backstory to say that I'm glad it worked out for you, sis. That the book is coming out just before your thirty first birthday.

[00:05:02] But do you feel like you are or may have limited yourself by putting a finite end date on a creative pursuit that you can do forever? I think so. I think what I was feeling at the time, a little bit of pressure going through

[00:05:23] mid twenties, late twenties, and you start to feel the world closing in a little bit. The corner life crisis. I had one of those two. Exactly where in especially in publishing, it's always hype is always a real big aspect of this industry.

[00:05:38] And when you're trying to break into that industry, you could feel like if you're not the fresh, young, brilliant thing, then you're somehow almost not valid, which is, of course, not true. But those are things you convince yourself as you're trying to piece together.

[00:05:51] How am I not where I want to be yet? And it's too late for me. And so I was feeling a lot of pressure, I think. And I didn't want to let my family down. I didn't want to be any kind of disappointment.

[00:06:05] I didn't want them to think that, oh, you went through all of this education and you're taking so long to get to the thing that you wanted to do. Of course, they didn't feel that way. My parent, my family, my mother and my father have been deeply supported

[00:06:15] my entire life. But those are the questions that you start asking yourself when the law starts closing in and you start giving yourself expectations that are sometimes unrealistic. So I do feel like I limited myself to an extent.

[00:06:28] And I certainly don't advise anyone to keep yourself on that kind of strict if this doesn't happen immediately, I'm changing my life forever type of path. I certainly don't think that's necessary. And some of today's bestselling authors are proof of that.

[00:06:40] These are individuals who have been writing for decades or who just had their breakout. So it's proof that with writing, as you said, you can write forever and you can. But for me, I think I had to have that deadline in order

[00:06:56] to keep myself motivated and to not give into doubt. For sure. So now nearly on the other side of that goal, we will be once this episode comes out where your book is out, you made your deadline. You see success in whatever that means to you.

[00:07:12] What are your new goals or is your new perspective in terms of your writing and perhaps giving yourself some grace? One of my goals after this entire experience is to really exhale and take my time and maybe trust myself a little bit more.

[00:07:32] Even throughout this process of writing my debut, which I'm incredibly proud of, I've harbored so much doubt. As to whether I am the person that tell the story, if I should be telling the story, if I have what's necessary in terms of skills or education

[00:07:47] or life experience to tell a story like this. And looking back on it now, I can only see the proof that the path I'm on is the path for me. And now it's really a time for me to improve my craft as much as I can

[00:08:00] and really now give this my full focus, my full attention, my full heart and my full passion. I want to do my due diligence and truly tell the stories that are close to me, tell the stories that I feel come from my heart and come from my soul,

[00:08:13] the stories that I've always wanted to tell and to portray them to the best of my ability and to really perfect my craft. OK, you mentioned earlier that you and your agents sold this book, the mayor of Maxwell Street on spec, which I don't think I've ever heard

[00:08:27] of for debut fiction, like maybe the second book, sure. But like the first one, tell us how that all happened. I also had no idea that selling on proposal for a debut was an option. As I've met more and more 20, 24 debuts, there are a couple of us,

[00:08:43] quite a few of us who sold on proposal. So I think at first the publishing industry, which loves to dwell in secrecy and shadows and cloak and dagger, I think they need to strip away some of the illusion that you have to spend a decade and a half

[00:08:57] writing this perfect ideal book and then maybe we'll take it and tear it apart and stitch it back together and then you'll get published. And in truth, that that's not always the case. And so to explain my story, my agent became aware of how Disney

[00:09:17] publishing group was opening this new adult imprint. And they're really excited to to get some titles in the works. And he asked, would you do you have any ideas? And I said, sure, I have ideas. And at the time I've been doing a lot of research

[00:09:31] into the original black elite and black upper class of America and rereading the great gasp, like everybody else in the beginning of 2020 yet to really give it a lot of steam or a lot of energy or a lot of fire. And when he told me about this opportunity

[00:09:46] and I had spoken with some of my mentors who were really encouraging and supportive and gave me great guidance throughout this process. I said, OK, I can put something together. So I put together a proposal and some sample pages,

[00:09:57] actually the first two chapters of the novel where the sample pages that ultimately sold the book. And I in truth, I didn't expect it to sell. I was thinking, OK, this is me just showing people what I can do and possibly with another opportunity presents itself.

[00:10:11] Maybe they'll keep me on a list. But to see my publishers appear at Avenue be so passionate and excited and enthusiastic about this story was hugely inspirational and motivational for me. You go through all of these writing programs and talking with other authors

[00:10:27] and you hear these horror stories of how publishers have ulterior motives and they're going to disregard you or publish something that you're not happy with. But I've only had a beautiful experience with Hyperion Avenue and they love the story from the beginning.

[00:10:42] And I think without that level of internal support, I wouldn't have been able to start this whole debut journey the way I did. OK, so then let's get to the book, The Mayor of Maximal Street.

[00:10:53] If you can go ahead and read something from it for a couple of minutes and then I'll get into my questions. Avery Cunningham's The Mayor of Maximal Street is the story of Penelope Sawyer and Jay Shorie, an heiress and a hustler whose past crossed in 1920s Black Chicago.

[00:11:10] They're both keeping secrets from each other as they work together to uncover the identity of an elusive underworld figure in a tale that takes readers from the Jim Crow South to a roaring renaissance in America's second city. Here's Avery. Jimmy wanted to go faster.

[00:11:26] The idea of pushing the Buick to its breaking point came naturally to him. Instead of going faster, he slowed down. They continued to wind their way down the hill toward town. Houses began to appear, pine cabins and thin columns of wood smoke.

[00:11:41] White men sat on their porches or chopped firewood or fixed axels on their wagons. Each one stopped to give Jimmy severe pedilas glances. There was nothing particularly odd about a colored man driving his boss's daughter around. But Jimmy, he was an abomination in their eyes.

[00:11:56] The product of a love union between a Negro man and a white woman. Could there ever be anything more unworldly, more unholy, more threatening? Jimmy allowed himself to breathe easy when he passed the four mile marker

[00:12:07] on the boundaries of town ribbon from the corner store was an easy stop. Five minutes in and out soon they would be back up the hill with this ridiculous experiment behind him. Then he felt a warm gust of air on the back of his neck

[00:12:19] and the scent of Cecilia's heady floral perfume. We two are friends, ain't we, Jimmy? Jimmy's exhale came out dry and ragged. Friends, Miss Cecilia, he asked. No need to stand on formalities with me, she said.

[00:12:33] Jimmy flinched at the heat of her finger as she lightly touched his neck. Please call me Sulla, all my friends do. And I consider us to be friends. I'm not like your friends in town, Miss Cecilia. Jimmy said more than to himself and to her.

[00:12:48] She laughed. No, you most certainly ain't. You're different from anyone I've ever met. Always happened ever since we grew up together. Now is Jimmy's turn to laugh. We grew up adjacent to each other, he said. I'd be hard pressed to say we grew up together.

[00:13:04] My that's a fine trick. Jimmy looked again in the rear view and asked, trick, Miss. Sounding like a white man. Why you talk better English than Jack with Junior's college buddy? The leather of the driving gloves Jimmy was required to wear groaned as he clenched the wheel.

[00:13:18] This is how my father taught me to speak. It's so bumpy back here, she said. And Jimmy could hear her bouncing in her seat until the spring squeaked. Let me write a front with you. Jimmy started so suddenly that the wheel jerked, sending dirt

[00:13:30] from the road shooting up into the air. There, see? She exclaimed, it's life and death. I could have been killed. We're just outside of town, and I won't rattle around like rocks in a can all the way there. Pull over in the stitch here.

[00:13:43] Gone were the breezing undertones of Cecilia's voice and now left no room for a debate. He waited until he passed a half a mile, maybe more. Without seeing a dirt road or a shotgun house. Then he slowly eased the Buick into a rocky embankment,

[00:13:56] struggling to keep us quiet as possible. The sounds of an automobile were so foreign in these hills. No doubt someone heard them pull over and someone would come to investigate. Jimmy killed the motor and within a blink of a bird's eye,

[00:14:10] Cecilia was tucked in close to his side. Jimmy considered shearing a hole in the back seat just so he claimed that the torn fabric cut her legs. Anything to explain why she was forced to sit up front. Alone with him. Why Jimmy blue eyes? Your hands are shaking.

[00:14:25] Jimmy looked down at his hands and saw that yes, they were shaking. It took him only a brief moment to realize that this debilitating feeling was fear. Have you ever been with a girl? Cecilia asked. Jimmy looked at her to gauge her seriousness or her sanity for himself.

[00:14:40] Her expression was deceptively unbothered. We should get on, he said. It's getting close to sundown. That wasn't too far from the truth. If they hurried, the Buick would beat the darkness. But when Jimmy went to start up the ignition, Cecilia's hand came to rest on his.

[00:14:54] Jimmy snatched it away as though he'd been burned. I would have never taken you to be the shy type, she said. I've seen your eyes on me, Jimmy. No need to be bashful. I know it's your nature. Miss Cecilia, I told you to call me Silla.

[00:15:07] The edge was back. Sharper now with deadly intent. Silla. The name felt heavy and unfamiliar in Jimmy's mouth. Your brother would not approve of me addressing you as such. Junior can take a goddamn leap for all I care.

[00:15:19] Ain't like he's my daddy, bossing me around and telling me how to behave. If I want you to call me Silla, you'll damn well call me Silla. The ease with which Cecilia cursed her brother took Jimmy a back. She must have seen the weariness in his eyes,

[00:15:32] a slow withdrawal of a cornered animal. Instantly that mask of the demure Southern belle was back with its coquettish glances and literal chiming laughter. I want to talk about you and me, she said. Us? Really? I've fancied you for some time, Jimmy.

[00:15:46] And I think you fancied me too. Fancy me? Yes. Goodness gracious, boy, don't look so horrified. You ain't no blushing maid. I hear the way the Negro girls talk about you. I didn't take much stock before, but now we're both near grown and there's no harm in it.

[00:16:01] It was like deciphering another language. Jimmy understood the essence of what she was saying, but the details all came together in a frantic heap. Are you propositioning me, Miss Cecilia? Jimmy asked at last. Cecilia snipped as though the sentiment came with a foul odor.

[00:16:16] Propositioning? What a word to use. This hearing nothing untoward just a talk. Between friends, you keep saying that, he said. But we have never been friends, you and I. I think this may be our longest conversation. Well, what would you expect? She asked. An invitation to dinner?

[00:16:32] Drinking whiskey and smoking cigars with my grandfather? Some of us can't be as careless as your mama obviously was. That struck Jimmy exactly where and how it was meant to. With harsh shuttering movements, he shifted the gears. Stop it, Cecilia was suddenly clinging to his arm.

[00:16:47] There was no illusion of space between them now. Stop it, she said again, cajoling. I'm sorry, that was cruel. He must understand how difficult this is for me. Of course I understand, Jimmy said. It's a considerable effort to maintain that calm,

[00:17:02] pliable tone that white folks always expected from him. That's why I'm going to start up this car, take you to town, then drive you back to white pine. You will do no such thing. Why are you making this so difficult? Here, just.

[00:17:15] And then they were as close as two people could be. Her lips were on his and she tasted like something artificial. Store bought and made to last. As he flung himself back, flushed against the door of the Buick,

[00:17:26] he licked the residue of her cherry red lip rouge left behind. Stained was how he felt, soiled from skin to bone. So you mentioned that you re-read The Great Gatsby and was doing some research into upper middle class black families. Was that all that inspired this story

[00:17:45] or were there other points of entry? Those were the initial inspirations, the first sparks. But truly as I began diving into the research of the time period and what the black experience truly was in the 1920s and directly prior to the 1920s,

[00:18:01] it became much more than a Gatsby retelling or simply a glittering exploration of a black wealth or black prestige. It became about the great migration and the effect that period American history had on Chicago had on the entire country, had on black culture.

[00:18:17] It became about the corruption of a city like Chicago and how that corruption from a systemic level allowed so many to thrive and to prosper while still maintaining a really strict that as quo for majority of the population. So it became more a story of an era

[00:18:34] as opposed to a story of a particular group of people or a particular moment. And a part of me wishes that I'd known what this would turn into at the start and Gatsby and the history of the original black elite is still at the heart of this story,

[00:18:50] but the essence of this entire period in American history is wrapped around that. So I am from Chicago. Oh, yay! And I was glad to see the black elite and the undercurrent of Chicago politics and the corruption, but in a way that it wasn't as dark

[00:19:13] as Richard Wright's Native Son, which is not about the 20s, but it's still in that era of Chicago's segregation and how those race relations work in the city. You start the book with Jimmy Blue Eyes who sets the tone for the story,

[00:19:32] but the majority of it rests on Penelope Sawyer or Netli as she's called in the book. And heiress to a horse breeding family, which I thought was really interesting. Why did you wanna center your novel on this young woman in the summer season of debuts

[00:19:54] and everyone's vying to get Mary Well and all of the things? Right. I think what I wanted with Nellie's character was someone who captured really this line out of Gatsby that's lived in my head rent-free since I was like 14 years old. It says,

[00:20:12] I was within and without simultaneously enchanted and repelled by the inexhaustible variety of life. And I really wanted our character or our main character that had that sensation of being within and without. Someone who straddled the wall as it were between being firmly planted within this group,

[00:20:30] this community in the society and an outcast or an outsider. So someone who was a part of the crowd, a part of the throne, a part of the institution, but still had an abyss to question it, to criticize it, to be repelled by it in some way.

[00:20:47] And yet still want to be a part of it and still want to be invited into the room to feel welcomed by this community. And that is the heart of where Nellie's development comes from. She is born into this incredibly wealthy, unprecedentedly wealthy black family,

[00:21:04] but she is new wealth. Her family's not established in the talented tense, so to speak. So while she is superficially welcomed in because of her potential, because of her wealth, because of the legacy that she could bring with her, she has also kept it a firm distance

[00:21:21] by individuals who are almost waiting, just waiting for her to make a mistake, waiting for her family to make a mistake so they can say, oh, see, I told you so. All their wealth, all their influence is just money. They don't have the pedigree to be a part

[00:21:33] of our community. So that's from the more the black elite perspective, but Nellie also has that same sensation as a journalist. Her aspiration is to be an investigative journalist for a publication like The Chicago Defender. And she throws herself into this pursuit very often.

[00:21:49] But even as she takes on all of these, what she feels are journalistic instincts and journalistic chances, she's still coming into this world of grit and violence and poverty and all different forms of systemic oppression from a place of privilege.

[00:22:06] So even from that perspective, she is within and without. She can never truly be a part of the elitist culture that her family is attempting to break into or the more underworld that she's attempting to discover and expose in a sense.

[00:22:23] And I just wanted readers to feel that sensation throughout their entire time reading within her perspective. You mentioned that at the time that you were writing or even since after that you have doubted whether or not you had the scale knowledge research level to pull off this novel.

[00:22:41] And even having sold it on spec, having to do all of that while you're under contract. So there's very much pressure and deadlines looming. Did you tell the story that you wanted to tell or did you surprise yourself? I think I surprised myself.

[00:22:57] And I think I did tell the story that I wanted to tell but it wasn't the story I'd originally planned on. I think when I first started outlining and drafting and really pitching this novel, I was trying to stay within certain parameters.

[00:23:11] I was trying to tell something that was a little bit lighter, fluffier, more aggressively leaning into the romance than the love story. Not so much into the historical realities of the time. And when I dive into the research and really I have to owe this all

[00:23:27] to The Warmth of Other Sons by Isabelle Wilkerson, I started her book as a way to just get a, as much of a foundation as I could about the Great Migration outside of what I just knew from growing up. And her, the narrative she incorporated really,

[00:23:42] there was more than education. It was like a realization that if I'm to write about the Black experience of the 20s and I need to try my best to write about it honorably and tell a story that has all of, at least as much as I could capture

[00:23:57] all of the grit and the danger of that time period. And I think that's where some of my doubts came from too, because I told myself, well, I can write something fluffy and light and glittery, but when I realized that in order to do this story

[00:24:12] or this time period of these characters justice, I would have to lean in a little bit more. I would have to invest a little bit more emotionally and in terms of craft and in terms of character development, I began to really doubt.

[00:24:23] It was like, am I the person who can write this story? Do I have the skills or the experience to tell the story in a way that honors the past, that honors our entire culture, our entire legacy, especially during this time period?

[00:24:35] And I feel those doubts in this day. And I think that's the plight of any writer. Should I have devoted even more myself to telling the story that my soul wanted to tell? One of the things that you do, even though this novel is focused

[00:24:52] on the Black upper class in the lead of Chicago, it also has that undercurrent of corruption and grit as well. And in that, you do a really good job of illustrating the hierarchy of race, ethnicity and nationality in the novel and bringing together people from all different backgrounds.

[00:25:16] So you have your Greek, Jewish people, Italian blacks and these different pockets of the city and bringing together all of the different backgrounds and facets of the city and the characters. What were you trying to show about how, even though this is a period piece set in 1920 Chicago,

[00:25:37] perhaps the city and even the country itself hasn't really changed? Yes, definitely. So I think what my hope of my goal was by showing all of these different communities in Chicago is to truly show the breadth of the city to give as complete as possible

[00:25:53] of just how many perspectives and opinions and agendas were represented within the city and how they all brushed up against each other and clashed together and interacted with each other. And it's interesting that Chicago at this time felt very much like a microcosm

[00:26:10] or the country itself, rich small at this time. You have massive amounts of people moving in and moving out. You had socioeconomic landscapes changing, ethnic landscapes changing, demographic landscapes changing. You had the sudden influx of black Americans out of the South that completely altered

[00:26:28] the culture of Chicago in a way that happened very quickly and very suddenly. And I do think it wasn't just a reflection in the city of America as a whole at this time, but as you were saying, America as it is today.

[00:26:41] The idea that we are a melting pot is correct in a sense, but we're more, it's more like a bento box almost. All of these different vibrant and wonderful cultures, ethnicities, groups and ideals, but still kept separated, touching only just in a way

[00:27:00] to maintain that sense of control. When you learn more about the character or the idea of the Mayor of Maxwell Street, what this character represents is the true melding of all of these institutions. What happens when people who are kept intentionally divided by the system start working together

[00:27:16] and start interacting together? What kind of potential could that have for not just a city, but an entire country? So I can't talk too much about the book because I don't want to give any spoilers. My favorite character is Sequoia. I just love her and like she's brash,

[00:27:35] she's loud, she's reading people for filth. And yet she is a woman who is in this life of elite black society in Chicago. She's all down for the deputant balls and all the things. This is her world, this is her people. And yet she's having to hide

[00:27:53] and she doesn't hide by making herself small, but she hides by making herself larger than life, even though she's keeping a deep secret and only letting very few people see the true heart. Where does she come from? Where does she come from?

[00:28:14] Right, so Sequoia is definitely a fan favorite and I have definitely played around with the idea of doing a spin-off. But where she came from, I guess the original idea was that I had my main tube. We had Jane, had Nelly.

[00:28:26] And I was thinking I really wanted Nelly to have some, Jane was kind of Nelly's guide into the underworld of Chicago. I needed a guide for the black upper class of Chicago, that's where Sequoia originally came from. But then as I read, learned more even just for myself

[00:28:42] about the history of the original black elite. The traditions, the cultures and even the occasional failings of a society that values wealth and values elitism and values colorism and values certain parameters that a person needs to fall within in order to be considered an exceptional black American.

[00:29:01] And so I wanted Nelly's guide into this world to be another outsider who has broken through the barrier, who's living within but under a deep cover. And like you said, she hides herself by becoming someone that is entertaining. She tells Nelly at some point.

[00:29:17] The only way that I would be allowed into these rooms or into these spaces is if I made myself someone that they could be entertained by, someone that they could almost laugh at to an extent, make someone who's interesting and flamboyant and wears these incredible clothes

[00:29:31] and makes these searing comments. They knew the true me that I wouldn't be in these rooms. I wouldn't have these opportunities. And I think that's a bit of a, was a bit of a lesson for Nelly herself that she comes into this world of Debbie Tompaul's

[00:29:44] and Catalan and club meetings and organization meetings and things like that. And she judges everything immediately. She thinks it's all folly and disrespectful of the realities of the time and a poor use of funds, a poor use of energy. And she's just very dismissive.

[00:30:01] And what Sequoia teaches her is that it's not all so stark that essentially saying, I know what you're seeing and I understand, but this is a means of survival. That if you want to change things, you have to change it from within. If you want to survive,

[00:30:16] you have to be part of a larger group. And that became a bit of Sequoia's lesson, at least for Nelly, a lesson about legacy because Sequoia is playing a very long game. This is how I'll be perceived for as long as I have

[00:30:27] because of the options that are available to someone like Nelly aren't available to someone like Sequoia. Sequoia doesn't have dozens of people trying to incorporate her into their families. She has to plan for her future. So it gives Nelly a bit of a reality check

[00:30:40] that you may judge this world, you may judge this community, you may judge the society but many of us are having to make a life within it and you cannot judge them. And yet in the end, Nelly becomes I think exactly what she despised in the beginning.

[00:30:58] Can you talk about that choice? Yeah, of course. If they get away. Of course. So it is interesting. And I didn't want Nelly's ending to be one where she chooses the happy choice, so to speak. Or I didn't want to be clearly the happy choice.

[00:31:13] I didn't want us to get to the end and think, wow, Nelly has gone on such a journey and now she's arrived at this perfectly content and happy moment in her life because that's not reality. People make choices to survive. And I think that's the choice

[00:31:24] that Nelly makes in the end. She said, yes, she came into the society feeling all those resentment and judgment and criticism but she also over the course learned, as I was saying earlier, learned that there's a long game that it's not just about you in the end.

[00:31:41] That each of us have to make a choice. So to speak especially within our culture and our tradition, we have to make a choice as to who are we honoring? Do we honor ourselves or do we honor the wider group? Do we honor our ancestors?

[00:31:52] Do we honor our parents? Do we honor our family? Do we honor our children? That the choices we make today don't just reflect on us. They have ripples to the generations. And Nelly decides for herself that she wants to make a choice that will benefit those to come,

[00:32:05] especially with what happens to her parents as she understands that yes, I'm the only one left and that means I have a duty and responsibility. She may resent that too, in extent. She may feel that it's not what she's earned. It's not what she deserves.

[00:32:22] It's not what she wants, but it's something she accepts and that she wants to have a more widespread effect on the future outside of just what she herself can accomplish and what she herself can do. And that is the essence of her choice.

[00:32:35] And I'm not saying it's the right choice. I'm most certainly not saying it's the right choice, but it creates an interesting foil to someone like Jay who goes through his entire story ever since the prologue believing the only way to survive in this world

[00:32:50] is to work to focus on myself. It's about my ambition, my aspiration, my goals that I have to strip away relationships in order to ascend to some higher place where I can be steady and safe and at peace. Otherwise, I'd make choices that hurt the ones I love

[00:33:06] and Nelly makes an opposite choice. And it's when people have asked before, what lesson do I want readers to take away from this, from the ending? I think that lesson addresses your question. Is that wealth will not save you? Name or the right clothes, the right ambition,

[00:33:23] even the right love will not save you from the threat that is coming through a system that will not save you from the larger challenge that the change that is necessary is bigger than just one person. But the question is, even knowing that,

[00:33:39] is it enough to risk it all for what you want personally for your own happiness? I wanna move to a speed around in a game where I let you go for what's becoming the afternoon. What is your favorite book? Oh my gosh.

[00:33:54] I won't say this is my favorite book of all time, but it's the book that really inspired me to double down on becoming a writer. And that's American Gods by Neil Gaiman. And why this book is, I think it was the first time

[00:34:10] where it wasn't just a page-turner, but the first time I'd really read, especially a contemporary book, that was so smart, that was so aware of itself, aware of the story it was trying to tell from a larger perspective. And I love elements of mysticism and magic

[00:34:27] and what is real and what's not real and elements of belief. And just the larger themes of that story really inspired me. I was so impressed that I said, okay, if I'm going to be a writer, I need to capture whatever this magic is

[00:34:41] and try to experience that in my own work. And every time I get stuck or have writer's block, I go back to that book and I read it again and I'm inspired all over again. Who was your favorite author? This may be a little surprising,

[00:34:58] but I love Isabelle Wilkerson. The Warment of Other Sons was a revelation for me. I expected a relatively dry, straightforward history. And it is not dry. I expected, not at all. I expected to read it and be like, okay, I understand almost like attending a lecture that,

[00:35:19] okay, I have a better understanding of the facts of this period of history, but instead what I took away from The Warment of Other Sons was a better understanding of myself in a way, of my parents, of my grandparents, of a history

[00:35:33] that I'd never really understood or acknowledged or sat with for any period of time. And so even though, and it may be strange for a fiction author to say that their favorite author is a non-fiction author, but everything she writes, every story that she tells,

[00:35:51] even though they're the realist and most sincere stories has a deep effect on me. And every time I come away just with an awakening almost. What is your favorite time period in history? This is a two-fold answer. There's one answer of a time period

[00:36:06] like viewing as in I like media that portrays this time period and then one that I like from a more historical perspective. So the one I like from a more historical perspective is the Reconstruction Era. So that's the 20, 30 years or so after the Civil War

[00:36:22] leading up to the start of the new century. And what I love about this era is the almost dramatic irony, the great potential that was there for black Americans to really step out of our enslavement into a healing experience as a country

[00:36:40] and how that was just slowly picked away at and how close we were to, certainly not perfection, but how close we were to a true change reflected again for another hundred years almost. And I just love learning about the era. I love learning about the strides

[00:36:57] that black Americans made in politics and business and leadership. But it's also just a, such a, for a writer and someone like me who loves suspense and loves intrigue and loves tragedy almost. It's also such a heart-wrenching period

[00:37:14] because of how fast Jim Crow rose up out of it and how harsh the reaction of Jim Crow was. Now the period that I love to view in terms of media, I really love the War of the Roses. I really like the Tudors.

[00:37:28] And so I consume all of that media, every show, the white princess, the red queen, all of that and I love every single bit of it because I just love that entire period of history, all the drama and the messiness.

[00:37:39] What do you think is the best book to movie adaptation or TV show since you just mentioned the Tudors? Right, Atonement. And why Atonement is because I think the movie captures the entire themes and aesthetic of the time period much better than the book does.

[00:37:56] Now I love the book Atonement but what the movie manages to do is elevate it into kind of a higher level of storytelling. It might not be the most exact or accurate adaptation, but I think it is the best adaptation

[00:38:10] in the sense that it takes what the book was trying to do and really raises it to some higher level. If the mayor of Maxwell Street got the adaptation treatment, who would you like to play your main characters? So I thought about this

[00:38:24] and I think the only way for this to work is if I was able to manipulate space and time somehow. So my Nellie is Dene Binton, who a lot of people may know from the Gilded Age. Now for Jay it's a bit more complicated

[00:38:38] because my ideal Jay would be Mark Taylor. And if you're not familiar with that name Mark Taylor, if you were a Disney channel kid and you watched 17 Again, the actor who plays the young version of their grandfather, he could get turned 17 Again, that is my Jay

[00:38:52] at that time and period in his life. But that doesn't work. It doesn't work at all, but there's no other... For me that was who I was thinking of when I wrote this character and I just haven't seen anybody else who would capture that vibe.

[00:39:07] All right, if money were no object, where would you go? What would you do and where would you live? If money were no object, I would live like my full Diane Keaton life on some Connecticut beach in a beautiful beach house where I could spend all day

[00:39:26] wearing turtlenecks and eating seafood and drinking tea and reading books on pristine white couches. And that's it, I'm sorry, I'm speaking my whole truth today on this podcast. No judgment, it's the turtlenecks for me. What brings you joy? Truly going on adventures,

[00:39:47] my trusty riding psychic, my Bernie's Mountain Dog Grizzly who sat right back here the entire time I wrote this book. But also my partner, he is very much a walk in the woods type of man he loves to be out and exploring.

[00:40:00] And I just love going on adventures with him just out in nature, going on a really beautiful hike and a beautiful place for an hour or two. Those are the moments that when I'm feeling really sad or down or doubtful, those are the moments I try to recreate

[00:40:16] to lift myself up again. So that at least right now, that's what brings me the most joy. And what brings you peace? Just speaking truly from the heart, I think what brings me peace is more of a sensation or feeling as opposed to an exact act.

[00:40:32] The feeling that I had when I was really young and I grew up in the church, in the CME church and the feeling that I would have when I would be able to sit in alone in the sanctuary and just feeling surrounded by a kind of grace

[00:40:49] and a peace and a history and a comfort in just the silent moment of looking at, but the church I grew up in is very old, well over 100 years old and looking at the stained glass windows and looking at the pews and the podiums

[00:41:03] and thinking about my place and all of it. Though that kind of sensation brings me a great amount of peace. And whenever I'm able to just sit quietly alone in any kind of sanctuary, those are the moments that really settle me and calm me again.

[00:41:16] And we talked about the writer who has the biggest influence on you to inspire you to write. What writer do you read and you be like, you know what? I retire from writing. I'm gonna mispronounce his name, but Amor Ratolls, A-M-O-R-T-O-W-L-E-S, the author of Rural Civility,

[00:41:34] Lincoln Highway and A Gentleman in Moscow. And every time I read his work, I have this profound realization that I am an amateur. And that I should be kicked out of the room that I don't belong here because here's someone who's exceptional

[00:41:52] on a level that I can't even really fully comprehend. And so that's always, for me, his work is always something to reach for but never quite grasped because his work is always so impressive and the Rural Civility was a huge inspiration for the Merrick Maxwell Street.

[00:42:07] And I tried to capture the beautiful things he did in that book, but I never could. I never will, but yes, that would have to be it. That would have to be the writer for me. All right, so our game is called Rewriting the Classics.

[00:42:19] Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wished you would have written. I wish I were a friend, Danae. I loved that novel growing up. It was, I think for me as the studious, bookish, quiet girl and adolescent that I was,

[00:42:39] it was just really moving to see a character like that succeed and find love and find something higher than herself. And a part of me wishes I could retell that story in a new way from a new perspective. I had a guest last season

[00:42:55] who did actually retell Jane Eyre with a biracial protagonist. Really? Set in the Civil War. Her name is Sophronia Scott and I believe the title of the book is Wild, Beautiful and Free. So if you want to read updated telling of Jane Eyre,

[00:43:14] Sophronia Scott has got you covered. Beautiful and free. Name a book that you want to change the ending and how would you do it? Oh my goodness, I'm sorry. I have to think about this. You may have to come back to me.

[00:43:27] I need to really think about that. I've read a lot of books recently and I'm getting them all mixed up in my head together. All right, and then name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why?

[00:43:40] Truly, and this may seem like I'm self-sabotaging a bit, but the great Gatsby. Now, I have so many people say that book so I was really curious about what your answer was going to be. So if you explain for the people

[00:43:52] why even though you wrote into that Gatsby era, it's overrated or overtaught. Now I'm very pleased. Well, I think one, that there's the general problematic nature if it's jailed as a human kind of spoils a bit of the book,

[00:44:08] but also I don't think the book leans as hard into the themes of an American dream deferred that it could. I think it tells a very kind of a surface level exploration of the 20s and this idea of breaking in a breaking out of your cast essentially.

[00:44:29] But I do wish even with its really clever language and all of the pictures and descriptions of the 20s life that we love so much, I do wish that it respected its characters a little bit more and tried to explore its themes with a little bit more depth.

[00:44:45] I think it's a great introduction to contemporary literature for students. A lot of high schoolers, they talk about that the moment they started paying attention in English class was when they read the great Gatsby. But I do think that as a classic American novel

[00:44:59] it's a little bit over-hiked. And now they can read yours instead. Right, exactly. We have options now. All right, so my final question for you today and I don't know if you've thought this far but I don't wanna take away anything from you if you do,

[00:45:20] if you have. But the question is when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you want someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you've left behind? And you're right, I have left up as far.

[00:45:35] But I think I would like for them to say that the stories that I endeavored to tell were transportive and vibrant but also portrayed characters that were complex and messy and made controversial conflicting choices. That these are stories more of a time of a snapshot

[00:46:05] in history as opposed to an individual as complete and thorough and reflective as they couldn't be. That's it. Big thank you to Avery Cunningham for being here today on Black and Published. Make sure you check out Avery's debut novel, The Mayor of Maxwell Street.

[00:46:22] Out now from Hyperion Avenue. And if you're not following Avery, follow her on the socials. She's at aa underscore Cunningham on Twitter and Avery writes big books on Instagram and that's all one word. That's our show for the week. If you liked this episode

[00:46:41] and want more Black and Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at black and published and that's B-L-K and published. There I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Avery about why she doubted herself without any outside influence. Make sure you check it out

[00:47:01] and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll let y'all next week when our guests will be Antoine Edie and Jared and Jerome Pumphrey, the author and illustrators of The Last Stand. People will see this and think, oh, this is a story about Black farmers

[00:47:15] in the USD's discrimination. Black farmers aren't necessarily in the narrative when we talk about farming documentaries when we see films, when we see other parts of literature. Black farmers are usually left out of that narrative. Every day I try to wake up and I try to choose happiness

[00:47:30] and I try to bring joy to the world and I definitely try to do that with literature. That's next week on Black and Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace.