Deconstructing Color, Race & Caste with Roberto Carlos Garcia

[00:00:00] What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published, bringing you the

[00:00:20] journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is

[00:00:27] Roberto Carlos Garcia, author of the poetry anthology, What Can I Tell You? The anthology

[00:00:34] explores themes of race and identity in the Caribbean and Latin America and how Roberto

[00:00:40] came to understand that his Blackness and African ancestry was inextricably linked

[00:00:45] to his Latin heritage. We're all supposed to be quote unquote Latinos but even within

[00:00:49] groups like that you have colorism and so it took that weight off of me. That didn't matter

[00:00:56] I was like a Latino, fuck that, that's bullshit. You know what I mean? That's a genocidal project.

[00:01:03] Unlearning the ways in which colonialism have infected the mind is a central theme in Roberto's

[00:01:08] work. The reason he says his point of view made it hard for his work to fit into a publisher's

[00:01:14] expected narrative. Plus how in some Afro-Latin communities anti-Blackness begins at home. And

[00:01:23] the reason he believes spoken word is poetry in its purest form. That and more is next

[00:01:30] when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:41] All right so let's jump in. Roberto, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:46] Um I think it was in undergrad. I took a literature course and it was very different.

[00:01:52] It was very interactive so not only do we have to read stuff, we have to memorize stuff and recite

[00:01:58] it. And then the professor would ask us to go ahead and you know write something inspired by

[00:02:06] what we read and perform it and recite it. So it was you know that was new for me. As a

[00:02:13] matter of fact that professor was Dr. Jan Balakian. She's a popular playwright. Her brother

[00:02:19] is the poet Peter Balakian who's also a very popular poet. Anyway she was reading my stuff and

[00:02:24] she looked at it and she looked at me and she said you know I don't know what they call it

[00:02:28] but you got it. She said you should write and I was like what? I'm about to go to law school.

[00:02:37] I said I gotta go get this money. I'm not trying to write. Did you ever make it to law school?

[00:02:43] No, no way.

[00:02:46] Some days I think like man I wonder if I still got that in me you know but it would only be to

[00:02:52] try to get in there and fight the good fight which would probably be a lot more frustrating

[00:02:56] than just you know writing poems and trying to be the change in more proactive ways than you

[00:03:04] know being in a courtroom. I've had two writers on the show previously. One a Cuban-American

[00:03:11] and he is actually a lawyer. And then I had another writer, a black guy who also went to law school

[00:03:18] as a lawyer and then they got MFAs and started writing afterwards but like that's in them so

[00:03:23] I am interested to see that trajectory for writers like because I think for black writers,

[00:03:28] writers of color if you're going to get the English degree a lot of people say go to law

[00:03:31] school don't start writing because writing doesn't really make money.

[00:03:36] Yeah that's my wife's first question she's like okay how are you gonna make money with

[00:03:39] that? Like how are we gonna do this you know and so I had to look into it do some research

[00:03:46] and I saw that a lot of writers with MFAs teach and so I said all right you know what

[00:03:53] but I think the reason why so many writers have this relationship or flirtation with law

[00:03:59] is because it requires language. It's the study of language right and language that leads to

[00:04:07] some pretty consequential ends if you think about it right when it comes to law so I think

[00:04:12] that that facility with language reading it interpreting it reworking it I think it lends

[00:04:18] itself to that you know but it's a tough field. But I also think the draw to law

[00:04:26] because I considered law school very briefly but I did consider it is that it's not only the

[00:04:32] study of language but how you can use language to persuade and to make actual change. So then I

[00:04:39] wonder do you find that the ways that writers render the world to reflect what's happening and

[00:04:47] what could be is as effective or possibly more effective than what can be done in a court of law?

[00:04:55] I'm sure sometimes not all the time but I think overwhelmingly a court of law wins out

[00:05:02] and sometimes that could be an unfortunate thing. But for me books have changed the entire

[00:05:08] trajectory of my life so I think that a good book the right circumstance you know it has

[00:05:16] that power for sure but I think also that we cannot negate the world we live in the legal

[00:05:22] structure and the wonderful judicial legends that have managed to accomplish wonderful things

[00:05:29] but then also there's those awful people who have done just some terrible things with it as well

[00:05:33] right. So I think I think I'm gonna say that writing has the ability to do that and a great

[00:05:39] book has the ability to do that but sadly the courts are winning these days and not

[00:05:44] not in our best interest. You said that books have changed the trajectory of your life what

[00:05:49] did you mean by that? When I was a kid I had to I grew up with my grandmother she raised me

[00:05:56] and she when she came from Dominican Republic it wasn't supposed to be a permanent thing

[00:06:03] so she was always like I'm not learning English I'm going back so why even bother

[00:06:07] you know and that was that was always her thing and so her eyesight wasn't great and

[00:06:14] so I used to have to read everything for translate things like if a letter came in

[00:06:19] English I had to translate it for my report cards or anything from school I had to translate

[00:06:24] it for her but then the magazines she would read in Spanish I would have to read them so

[00:06:29] that forced me to know how to not just speak both languages but read and write both languages

[00:06:36] and so that always kind of opened doors for me that would otherwise be shut

[00:06:41] but then also I read this book called Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Being a Latino

[00:06:46] right and so I read this book and I didn't really see myself in my experience reflected

[00:06:54] in it. It focused a lot on like you know it did speak about the transatlantic slave trade

[00:06:59] and how yes there's black people in Latin America but the focus was more on the mixture

[00:07:04] and stuff you know and then I read this book called Down These Mean Streets by P.D. Tomas

[00:07:10] and that book reflected what I was seeing like to the T you know what I mean like he was

[00:07:17] Afro-Puerto Rican growing up in Harlem in New York and the world he traveled in saw him

[00:07:25] as a black person it's a black body but his household did not buy into that his

[00:07:32] Puerto very Puerto Rican household wasn't trying to hear it and his brother and

[00:07:36] sister were very like light skin and they had different hair texture than him they had

[00:07:41] Eurocentric hair and then his father was he looked more like his father and so in

[00:07:46] the event that's that reflected my experience of what quote-unquote Latino man I have issues

[00:07:52] with that word but that really reflected what my experience was and so it really grounded me

[00:07:59] and it was like all right I'm not crazy like I'm experiencing this I'm seeing it.

[00:08:04] At that time my the community I was part of the Dominican Dominican American community wasn't

[00:08:09] having those conversations and so to see it to read it was really like life-changing for me

[00:08:17] it really kind of explained a lot of things for me and helped me to put the world into

[00:08:21] a certain perspective if that makes sense. It does because you write a lot about identity

[00:08:28] in the construct of race in the book I mean you have a whole book black maybe an Afro

[00:08:32] lyric which you have some of those poems in what can I tell you and you say specifically

[00:08:38] in the essay many are quick to claim Latin American status as opposed to Afro Caribbean

[00:08:44] identity let's be honest Cuba Puerto Rico Dominican Republic and Haiti aren't in

[00:08:48] South or Central America they're in the Caribbean we need to re-examine our historical

[00:08:52] cultural selves I completely agree that race is a construct but identity is a necessity.

[00:08:57] With you growing up in trying to form your identity in a country that only sees black and

[00:09:06] white and coming from a culture that sees various shades by caste what did language do for you

[00:09:16] to put that confusion into words and to understand your identity because it is a

[00:09:22] necessity? It helped me kind of understand that this same situation in North America

[00:09:27] is like from the tip of Maine all the way down to the tip of Chile in South America

[00:09:33] and all the way to that last island on the Caribbean chain that's not just America that has

[00:09:38] this racism colorism caste kind of situation right and that people who migrate here to

[00:09:46] North America from those places bring it in a different way right and so when it gets here

[00:09:54] it just kind of clashes and a lot of times it can manifest in a lot of different ways you know

[00:10:00] my best friend growing up was African American he lived right across the street from me

[00:10:03] it was you know so wild because you know between his mom and my grandmother there was

[00:10:08] a certain distrust of our households of each other's household right and I always found that

[00:10:14] to be so interesting because if you just literally sat us down somewhere and we didn't

[00:10:18] talk and people just drove by and looked at us they'd be like look at all the black people

[00:10:22] over there you know what I mean like they wouldn't know the background right so for me it

[00:10:26] helped me understand that this is a colonial experience we all have right it is a colonial

[00:10:32] experience there's a North American Afro diaspora colonial experience is the South

[00:10:36] and Central American one and there's a Caribbean those experiences may be different

[00:10:43] but we're like I like to use the word you know we're trapped in the same trap in the same

[00:10:50] structure and so I think what language did for me was that helped me really to clarify that

[00:10:57] and then and understand it and then how you know shaped my identity is that

[00:11:02] okay I know who I am I don't have these illusions or visions that I'm somehow exempt

[00:11:08] from anti-black racism I'm somehow exempt from fraternity with my Afro diasporic cousins whether

[00:11:16] it be North American, Central American, or South American that we're not all in the same struggle

[00:11:21] and that was very it took a big burden off of me because what a lot of people don't realize is

[00:11:26] in any either Latino family or Latino community we're all supposed to be quote unquote Latinos

[00:11:31] but even within groups like that you have colorism and so it took that weight off of me

[00:11:37] and that didn't matter to me anymore I was like a Latino fuck that but that's bullshit

[00:11:43] like you know what I mean that's that's a genocidal project that is the there's a poem

[00:11:48] I have here called Casta which is like the idea of the mestizo and the Castilian the Castilian

[00:11:54] is the person who most resembles quote unquote a Spaniard or very or is very Eurocentric

[00:12:00] the mestizo is this mix allegedly of indigenous and European and so this is

[00:12:05] like a genocidal project tied to like literal legal political action to try to Europeanize or

[00:12:13] whiteify South Central America and parts of the Caribbean so I was glad to get that need

[00:12:20] to be like you know don't get me wrong like I love the certain aspects of Dominican culture

[00:12:26] you know what I mean there is a history there of fighting anti-blackness there is a history

[00:12:31] there of resistance we don't get to see that because of the elites and etc so it's not to

[00:12:37] say that you know I don't love and enjoy being part of that culture but I just also know that

[00:12:43] I'm part of a larger struggle and that I can't wish that away just by claiming you know

[00:12:49] merengue bachata plantings etc you know what I mean yeah you say it's all part of the same

[00:12:57] trap immediately I think we're all in the same boat literally and figuratively

[00:13:03] I went to Cuba some years ago and I've been to Puerto Rico as well and I didn't really notice

[00:13:08] it as much in Puerto Rico and maybe I wasn't paying attention but in Cuba specifically I

[00:13:12] was like it is really just a difference in the boat stop like it that's really the only

[00:13:17] difference and in talking about those racial constructs that you grew up with you also

[00:13:24] spend a lot of time discussing feelings melancholia your first book and you have excerpts from that

[00:13:31] obviously melancholy depression anxiety and all of that and then elegies is so heavily focused

[00:13:38] on your personal grief for your grandmother but then also this larger external worldly grief for

[00:13:43] the atrocities in the world why is it that those subjects drive you to write I wish I knew

[00:13:55] some days you just want to turn it off even right now what's going on with Palestine

[00:14:00] and what's being done to the Palestinian people it's really kind of impacted me every day since

[00:14:05] that invasion started happening not that the Hamas attack did not impact me it obviously did

[00:14:11] it's just that I knew that 10 times as many people in Palestine were about to die when

[00:14:17] that happened and so why feel so much I wish I knew it really hits me and so

[00:14:24] it probably has a lot to do with maybe I'm just a hypersensitive person when it comes to emotions

[00:14:29] and feelings but recognizing that really drives what I want to put in my work because I want

[00:14:36] people to develop a strong sense of empathy and understanding you don't necessarily always

[00:14:42] have to relate to the consequences of why I feel pain but you know what pain feels like

[00:14:46] so you can understand that and so part of my hope is that comes through in the work and it helps

[00:14:53] people to feel more I think so much of existing in our modern world is having to shut off

[00:14:58] feelings all the time you know to be able to get through certain things and I don't think

[00:15:04] that's always healthy I think sometimes you want to you got to sit through some feelings and

[00:15:08] yeah about things at least that's the answer that's the answer I have today

[00:15:12] you know tomorrow so then in sitting with those feelings and working through them and writing

[00:15:19] through them be they on race or identity or any of those things what was your journey to

[00:15:25] publication like with your books it was tough because um I'm not trying to I don't know I

[00:15:32] guess there's certain narratives out there that we know that publishers are looking for I think

[00:15:37] and I don't know that my books necessarily fall very easily into a niche I'm a publisher myself

[00:15:44] so there's certain traps that you could fall into as a publisher you know like oh this book

[00:15:49] was hot last year let's get some books like that published I found success with smaller

[00:15:55] presses and you know at least so far and people who believe in what I'm writing what I'm

[00:16:02] talking about and the fact that maybe there weren't a lot of stories like that being published

[00:16:10] even in 2018 right and so between 2016 2018 then there was this kind of explosion

[00:16:17] about Afro Latinx identity and people writing about it and etc and there were people doing

[00:16:21] work even before that I'm not trying to say I'm the one who broke down the wall etc that's

[00:16:25] not what I'm saying but yeah everywhere I went with that book like maybe it was like I'm so

[00:16:30] glad this book is out here I'm so glad you wrote this and I was like good because I think that the

[00:16:35] interrogation of your own family life or the family life of Afro Latinos and how internalized

[00:16:43] racism creates anti-blackness at home and how just easy and customary it is you know I don't

[00:16:49] know for whatever reason it wasn't so big in the books but I'm grateful for all the people

[00:16:54] who gave that book an opportunity. Trevina Barber Press in Massachusetts published

[00:17:01] La Colia and they also published a chat book that I wrote to you know Gloria Mindax she's

[00:17:08] great she said I love your work let's go you know and I was like wow that was I'd never

[00:17:14] experienced that before you know and then Randall Horton and Heather Buchanan at Willow they

[00:17:19] really believed in black maybe and just gave it a shot and so I'm so grateful to them

[00:17:25] and then Edward Vira Ure at Flower Song so I've had some good success with small presses you know

[00:17:31] like my essay collection is coming out with a with a bigger press curb stone books and

[00:17:38] northwestern university press and so you know that's really cool I'm grateful let's see you

[00:17:43] know I'm used to working with small presses where we have a very you know intimate relationship

[00:17:48] and things can be changed on the fly they're very nimble you know a larger press doesn't

[00:17:52] necessarily have that ability so let's see let's see it's been good so far let's see how it goes

[00:17:58] in the beginning you said that maybe your writing didn't fit a certain niche or narrative

[00:18:05] that publishers may have been looking for can you say more about that in regards to your

[00:18:10] own writing and just navigating publishing in general sure I've been accused I think of

[00:18:16] you know you are writing about this black Latinx experience but it very much has an American

[00:18:24] lens flavor to it and I say yeah well because you know reality is I'm American this is where

[00:18:30] I grew up and the reality is is that you know melanated people whether you come from Jamaica

[00:18:37] Trinidad DRPR if you're born and raised in the United States you have a black experience

[00:18:44] a black American experience let me say versus a black Caribbean experience right

[00:18:48] and I'm like because in America that's what it is that's how you're going to be treated the

[00:18:53] same way it is in Latin America though like they just don't they just don't have the

[00:18:57] luxury of talking about it the way we do here in the United States I've said this before and

[00:19:03] I firmly believe that Latin America is a good 70 years behind black people in Latin America

[00:19:09] are about 70 years behind the progress that black people in the United States have made

[00:19:18] that says a lot considering the lack of progress we see about civil rights oh yeah but I think

[00:19:26] we have this Republican machine that is slowly dismantling everything the civil rights movement

[00:19:31] has accomplished right and so um but there you know there's have there been activists

[00:19:38] have there been people striving and fighting absolutely but conditions in every Latin American

[00:19:44] country black people are at the bottom of almost every category economic development

[00:19:50] educational growth and development opportunities you know you name it and so I think what it

[00:19:55] speaks to more than anything is the ignorance of the publishing industry as to the black

[00:20:01] experience in the quote-unquote new world black experience in America and I think also

[00:20:07] sometimes our own ignorance as black people in the Americas to our experience from top to bottom

[00:20:15] and out there you know we tend to also put ourselves in silos like you know I don't know

[00:20:22] about those Jamaicans over there like or I don't know about those Puerto Ricans you know

[00:20:26] what I mean we also tend to separate ourselves and so I think that to hear someone speak about

[00:20:32] it in a very pan-african kind of way is something maybe that publishing it wasn't ready

[00:20:36] for that I think what I gathered at least from the section from black maybe is similar to what

[00:20:43] you just said but that our understanding of blackness race cast and relation to

[00:20:53] power structures and what happened through slavery and colonialism is very limited and

[00:21:01] and putting ourselves in those silos I think all people in the diaspora of the Americas whether

[00:21:08] it's the United States or the Caribbean or anywhere we are looking to separate and find

[00:21:14] difference because that's what we've been taught to do um not really a question there just an

[00:21:20] observation I want us to appreciate what we've been able to achieve here I mean the culture

[00:21:28] of this whole place only exists because of us right think about what enslaved Africans have

[00:21:38] given to this side of the world you know cuisine you know music art style fashion language the

[00:21:46] very language the language that is considered beautiful artistic hip modern etc right is the

[00:21:54] language created by enslaved peoples and their descendants and so it's like it exists because of

[00:22:00] us and it's so different everywhere you go here in this new world right but yet there's enough

[00:22:05] similarity there where we know where it came from and so I think that's you know I'm trying

[00:22:11] to figure out a way to put that in a book so that so that hopefully um someone in Trinidad

[00:22:17] someone in Antigua Barbuda someone in in Harlem someone in LA you know someone in Brixton

[00:22:27] can pick it up and see it and say wow look at all this look at all these things that

[00:22:32] as different as they are they are one since we've been talking a lot about black maybe

[00:22:38] and those issues around it let's get to the book and if you can read a poem from each

[00:22:44] section and then we'll dive further in what can I tell you the selected poems of Roberto Carlos

[00:22:52] Garcia features poems from his three previously published books melancholia black maybe and

[00:22:59] elegies books and poems that explore the very tender human emotions of fear and anxiety

[00:23:06] depression and grief as well as what it means to be alive in a brown body with a Spanish

[00:23:13] background in a country that only sees you as black here's Roberto with duplicity from melancholia

[00:23:23] hard truth first thing I do as I breathe into a room is search for brown and black faces

[00:23:31] bobbing in America's post-racial waters I swim peripheral glances backstroke being ignored

[00:23:40] weighed on a chair in a corner of the room and chat up the help until some not brown or black

[00:23:49] one tosses me an integration lifeline hard truth light and dark sparkle the waters like tinsel

[00:24:00] pretty chimera no one really has to does anyone really have to talk to me and then now I'll read

[00:24:12] hasta from black maybe and so the title is in regard to a kind of painting which was

[00:24:24] very popular in the 18th and 19th century that depicted what certain couplings

[00:24:34] and their children would look like and so here's where we have these terms mestizo mulatto

[00:24:39] sanvago chino so if an indigenous person and a European had a child that that person was

[00:24:46] a mestizo if an African and a European had a child that person was a mulatto and these

[00:24:50] are terms that today are kind of used whether it's a term of endearment or casually but these

[00:24:58] are zoological terms you know and so to give that name to a child we think that about what

[00:25:05] does that mean when it's transposed over an African body that is viewed strictly as an

[00:25:12] object of enslavement in the European viewpoint at that time and so this poem is based on

[00:25:19] the terms in the painting and what their pairings produce

[00:25:25] conquistador espanol peninsular europeo colonized americano indio amerindian

[00:25:36] stolen slave negro africano espanol colony

[00:25:46] colonial indio espanol mestizo rape espanol mestizo castizo pass

[00:25:57] so if a spaniard and a mestizo got together and had a child that child was called the

[00:26:03] castizo because they were closer to white than anything else and so some people look at it as

[00:26:10] this weird kind of breeding map to breed your way back to Europeanness and whiteness

[00:26:16] espanol mafa colony slavery africano espanol mulatto rape espanol mulatto morisco pass

[00:26:28] and it goes on espanol morisco chino chino indio salta atrás salta atrás

[00:26:38] y mulatto lobo so salta atrás means to jump back in apprehension and so what it's saying

[00:26:44] is if a chino the product of a spaniard and a morisco then has a child with an indio or

[00:26:51] an indigenous person it creates a child that should make you jump back in apprehension

[00:27:22] ten ten el aire y mulatto no te entiendo so if someone labeled that ten ten el aire or

[00:27:28] somebody suspended in midair that's what ten ten el aire means you're suspended in midair meaning

[00:27:34] there's no way to know what you are and the mulatto have a child that child is called a

[00:27:39] no te entiendo meaning i don't understand what you are no te entiendo indio torna atrás

[00:27:47] and torna atrás means a step backward so the child of an indigenous person and

[00:27:54] i don't understand you is a step backward and it goes on terceron one third negro

[00:28:01] quadroon one quarter negro quintaroon one fifth negro hexadecaroon one sixth negro

[00:28:07] octaroon musty one eighth negro mustafino one sixteenth negro grife and kafuso

[00:28:15] three quarters negro and it goes on trigueño trigueñitos y marron rojizo moreno morenito

[00:28:23] quemado indecito prieto indio clarito creole claro oscurito blanco oscuro quemaito negro

[00:28:34] fair light skin high yellow red bone olive mid-tone brown dark brown black and it goes on

[00:28:43] white not hispanic latino black not hispanic latino native american white hispanic latino

[00:28:50] black hispanic latino asian not hispanic latino asian hispanic latino two or more races

[00:28:58] not hispanic latino and i'll read one from elegy's anyone in particular you want to hear

[00:29:05] i like number three from the cost although i'm sure that's going to make sense without

[00:29:11] other context but that is one that i would like to ask about oh okay yes yes so this whole poem

[00:29:19] the cost is this journey through colonialism in a sense and not just how would we see it happening

[00:29:26] in the caribbean today i think that section one is about that but then section two is how

[00:29:33] it happens interpersonally in friendships and other relationships but then how it can also

[00:29:38] happen with your own children you know and so three my son asks why he's not brown like me

[00:29:47] i have the other talk with him about passing and not being able to pass

[00:29:51] and don't you even think about passing memory takes the moment i'm running in the rain with

[00:29:57] friends the rain stops against my hair sits like cold wax on a wooden table my afro is

[00:30:05] not grass laying under water's weight your hair is not soft like mine you can't do this

[00:30:12] the hand the buffing pad makes a shine a lacquered lawn i want to torch so i slap my friend in

[00:30:21] the name of that narrative white is good black is bad good hair bad hair you shall not pass

[00:30:29] and i tell my son that and so i always had the good fortune of being the darkest person

[00:30:38] almost everywhere i was when it came to family gatherings and certain latinx groups

[00:30:44] always kind of stuck out in that way and it's like a different thing when your children

[00:30:50] aren't gonna have that experience so to speak right but they have to be aware of it because

[00:30:58] one thing i learned is that racism will always be on the lookout for it and so i always try to

[00:31:05] tell my kids people will always see me in you always and they'll ask you and my daughter

[00:31:13] my daughter's 12 and she said she came home she said puppy said what happened she said

[00:31:18] today somebody came up to me and said is one of your parents black right and i was like who

[00:31:24] asked you that and why did they want to know this girl asked me that and i was like all right and

[00:31:29] what happened she was like i said yeah my father is why and they were like oh i just wanted to

[00:31:35] know you know and i said yeah you will experience racism in different ways you might be light-skinned

[00:31:42] but you're still going to experience it in different ways and you have to understand that

[00:31:45] colorism is going to play a part both ways not just with white people who see that you're

[00:31:51] just a shade darker than they are but then also with people who are darker skinned that can see

[00:31:58] whatever slight little you know privilege you do get because you are light-skinned as opposed to

[00:32:04] people of a dark complexion so i've always talked to them about the complexities of that

[00:32:09] and what that means and falling into that trap of passing but also it being supported

[00:32:17] encouraged right is also really trippy but i think it's supported because you know you can

[00:32:24] have an easier life yeah in my situation i have seen a lot of people and people who have no

[00:32:31] business trying to pass like look you can't pass bro stop but they try it's a psychological

[00:32:38] like it's a you know it's fucked up there's no other way to say it you're playing games

[00:32:43] with your psyche and your identity that could cause irreparable damage and so for me it's like

[00:32:52] i'm not trying to let my kids go through that or even entertain it you know what i mean for

[00:32:59] that reason hopefully if people read the poem they can get that you know and i mean the

[00:33:06] conversations i've had with my kids aren't exactly like it is in this poem the poem is

[00:33:10] like a vehicle but i think it's very important to have that conversation because it's okay you

[00:33:15] fall in love with who you fall in love with that is what it is okay but um that doesn't

[00:33:22] mean you cannot educate your children on what the world is going to be like for them and so

[00:33:27] i think that's i think that's important i had a conversation with a colleague and we were

[00:33:32] doing an interview and they were telling me about trying to organize these workers

[00:33:38] and how in trying to organize the workers into like this big coalition they were these smaller

[00:33:46] factions and it was like this one faction where it was all like black american people and then

[00:33:50] there was another faction where it was latino latin a latinidad people and some of them

[00:33:56] were black but then would say well i'm not black i'm dominican i'm not black i'm portuguese

[00:34:01] and i think i said that i was like you know i'm interested in the jumps that the mind makes to

[00:34:07] make those differences when you might look exactly the same or shade different for a lot

[00:34:15] of people that come from latin america when they come to the u.s they they think the term

[00:34:22] black means african american so they're looking at it as black just means african american

[00:34:28] period so what they're saying is i'm not american so don't call me black right but there's also

[00:34:36] this mythology that in latin american countries there is no difference you are whatever the

[00:34:46] nationality is you're no longer an ethnicity right you are now a nationality whether it's

[00:34:53] a colombian a peruvian a puerto rican cuba is different black people in cuba

[00:34:58] embrace their blackness in a beautiful way that's on par to what i've seen in haiti

[00:35:04] you know where it's just this beautiful embrace of blackness but that that defensive comes

[00:35:10] from not wanting to be disassociated from their national identity at least is what i've

[00:35:16] learned right but also because they live also in this mythology depending on where they come

[00:35:21] from that everybody's columbian in columbia doesn't matter if you're black indigenous or white

[00:35:26] we're all columbian okay but then why when you look at all the numbers black columbians

[00:35:33] live in some of the worst poverty then etc etc right so there's that aspect of it it's a

[00:35:38] kind of internalized what's called customary racism you're so used to it that you don't

[00:35:44] even acknowledge it like you know what i mean you're like trained not to see it be that

[00:35:49] internal or external sadly but then also because of the black liberation movement and struggle in

[00:35:56] the united states being so distinctive you know learning about the black power movement

[00:36:03] in the caribbean and the rest of the caribbean and how that spread really taught me a lot

[00:36:07] about the ways it did not spread in latin america the ways it was suppressed you know

[00:36:15] and so the way that latino or latinx anti-blackness manifests in those environments

[00:36:22] you know as the example you're telling me is wild right but it's because it comes with them

[00:36:29] from latin america it's not that they are vaccinated here in the u.s it's that they're

[00:36:35] bringing that anti-blackness with them to the u.s and you know the u.s is always willing to

[00:36:41] accept a willing participant in racism yes right they say come on in but i think some of that is

[00:36:47] also the largesse of the united states where if you do come from somewhere else you automatically

[00:36:55] know it's better to be that than to be black american because of how black americans are

[00:37:00] treated so you're always trying to distinguish and i think for black people in america black

[00:37:06] americans specifically you talk about clinging to nationality american only works for us

[00:37:12] outside of america right like right yep like that's the only time it was like oh blue passport

[00:37:20] yeah saving grace like that it only works for black americans outside of america where it's

[00:37:26] like oh no no no no hear this accent but like when at home it's like it does us no favors

[00:37:33] and in addition to that it means the same thing in latin america you don't want to be known as

[00:37:39] black because of the negative connotation associated with it in latin america this

[00:37:45] is where that mythology of nationalism of being of a certain country is supposed to exempt you

[00:37:52] from that right and that's that's delusional let's just be honest you know that's delusional

[00:38:00] so then in tackling all these topics in your poetry collections you know what do you want

[00:38:07] readers to take from the selected works that you have that you have here that we we live in

[00:38:14] it is a neo-colonial world still it is we still live under a system of colonialism

[00:38:19] we have a lot of illusions and what hopefully will happen is that it'll spark a curiosity

[00:38:26] in particular that black people everywhere african americans afro caribbeans afro latinx

[00:38:32] afro asians just that black people will connect with that and say okay there's a lot

[00:38:39] for still left to learn how can we connect how can i learn more and more and more so that

[00:38:46] we can build lasting coalitions that don't fall apart under difference right or that that

[00:38:52] don't fall apart under external pressures from white supremacy because at the end of the day

[00:39:00] anybody can come here from any european country and there's a whole system here that will

[00:39:07] assimilate them into the social construction the power structure of whiteness seamlessly

[00:39:13] right i think we as the descendants of the transatlantic slave trade here in the americas

[00:39:19] need for our survival because we're like trapped in a slow motion genocide

[00:39:25] we need a blackness that helps us fight white supremacy in that way if that makes sense

[00:39:31] right yeah we need a kind of unifying blackness and i think that's some of our brothers and

[00:39:38] sisters need deconditioning and reconditioning in order for that to happen because it's very

[00:39:46] upsetting in today's day and age you know we are living in a part of the world that has at its

[00:39:51] foundation white supremacy and the exploitation of black people at however they can do it that

[00:39:57] has not only been part of my experience growing up i see it in the world all around me

[00:40:02] and so hopefully reading the book will illuminate some of that and then who knows

[00:40:08] what can happen from there and if they come away with anything you know it's that and that

[00:40:13] lack of knowledge that manifests itself in a lot of different situations family-wise community-wise

[00:40:21] your interpersonal relations and relationships you name it so i want to move to a speed round

[00:40:28] and a little game before i'll let you go for the morning what is your favorite book

[00:40:33] that's simple that's impossible um i'll tell you what a book that i often turn to and

[00:40:39] just listen to a lot because i just you know i love the sound of the book the memories it stirs

[00:40:46] up the world the book is a world i know and i'm familiar with and that this poet made it poetry

[00:40:53] is something it's just invaluable willy predomos where a nickel costs a dime

[00:40:59] is a book that it's like you know top top four five for me that's my answer today you

[00:41:05] know okay tomorrow might be different but that's my answer today who is your favorite author james

[00:41:12] balder equally as difficult who is your favorite poet that's impossible i don't have like one

[00:41:18] favorite they're all like one a one a one a one a you know what i mean um today my answer

[00:41:24] is rumy name a poet you think not enough people know about i just published this poet's

[00:41:31] book her name is uh christina olivares and she's a spectacular poet every time she reads people

[00:41:40] are just floored at how amazing the poets are when they read her book they the poems are they

[00:41:45] love it so more people should know about christina olivares's work what is the difference if you

[00:41:50] think there is one between poetry and spoken word one of the big differences is the poet

[00:41:59] writing on the page has to give you that feeling that listening to a spoken word artist gives you

[00:42:07] every time you go back to that poem every time and that's very challenging you know

[00:42:15] the spoken word tradition is like poetry in its purest form because poetry is an oral tradition

[00:42:22] and so you have to feel it you have to feel it there has to be that sound in the words

[00:42:29] and sentences that emotion has to be there so yeah i think the biggest difference is that

[00:42:34] the poet who's just writing uh for the page you have to feel like you're in front of that

[00:42:40] poet at the spoken word reading every time you go to that page name three things on your

[00:42:47] bucket list i don't know why i want to do this because i mean i really don't i don't really like

[00:42:53] flying but i do want to skydive at some point i want to because i want you know i want to fly

[00:43:00] i want to fly through the sky and with not being a plane so i get it i don't get it but

[00:43:07] i get it the second thing i would love to on my bucket list is to go spend years and years and

[00:43:16] years in nigeria and gana and sinigambia and the ivory coast and senegal visit the

[00:43:28] i would love to like relocate for some years and get to know it i think that's really important

[00:43:36] and then i just want to live a long healthy life you know see my kids same that's it yeah

[00:43:43] what brings you joy having absolutely nothing to do

[00:43:50] you know like uh the other day i sat down in my recliner i was i was watching myself play

[00:43:56] video games and i knew i had nothing to do and i was i was chilling i was happy and what

[00:44:02] brings you peace when everybody's home when everybody is home when i know you know my son's

[00:44:10] drives so when i know he's not out there in the world driving somewhere when my my wife and my

[00:44:15] daughter are home and when i hear from my oldest daughter who lives in you know new york

[00:44:21] and and she's like yeah i'm good i'm home you know i'm watching netflix i'm chilling

[00:44:25] and i'm like all right everybody's home yeah there's a world out there yeah yeah all right

[00:44:33] my final question for you today when you're dead and gone and among the ancestors what

[00:44:40] would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind

[00:44:45] his work is still very relevant today you know or you know his work is at the cornerstone

[00:44:53] of the progress we've made today i think that would be dope you know inspired some people i

[00:44:59] don't need to be the last word i just it's nice um if it moves people to continue the

[00:45:07] conversation right what's the next what are the next books you know what do our sisters have

[00:45:13] to say about this right what do you know are people in the lgbtq plus community what's their

[00:45:22] experience of this you know the colonial experience for them what about you know there's so many

[00:45:29] people we need to hear more about when it comes to this experience and so um yeah hopefully

[00:45:37] that it just keeps the conversation going big thank you to roberto carlos garcia for being

[00:45:42] here today on black and published make sure you check out roberto's poetry anthology what can

[00:45:48] i tell you out now from flower song press and if you're not following roberto check about on

[00:45:55] the socials he's at roberto carlos poet on instagram and the spoken mind on twitter

[00:46:04] that's our show for the week if you like this episode and want more black and published

[00:46:09] head to our instagram page it's at black and published and that's blk and published

[00:46:17] there i've posted a bonus clip for my interview with roberto going deeper into our conversation

[00:46:23] about colorism and what he learned about the terms high yellow and red bone make sure you

[00:46:29] check it out and let me know what you think in the comments i'll holla at y'all next week

[00:46:34] when our guest will be rudy francisco author of the poetry collection excuse me as i kiss the

[00:46:41] sky i have a lot of imposter syndrome i do a lot of negative self-talk to be honest

[00:46:46] right even when i'm entrenched in joy there's a moment where sadness sort of creeps in with

[00:46:53] like negative self-talk or impossible syndrome that's next week on black and published i'll talk

[00:46:59] to you then peace