Como Se Dice, Ghost? with Lori L. Tharps

[00:00:00] This is my moment to say like I don't have to be a change agent.

[00:00:04] I don't have to write serious hard stories, A, to have a job and B, to claim the title of writer.

[00:00:11] What's good?

[00:00:12] I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:23] Today's guest is Lori L. Tharps, an author of four books now living abroad in Spain,

[00:00:29] where she learned the true meaning of her new profession as a ghost writer.

[00:00:33] The idea is a ghost writer does all the work and gets no credit like a slave, like a black person.

[00:00:42] And so it feels pejorative, it feels racist.

[00:00:47] As they're saying, you're saying the work I'm doing is again, you're doing all the work, get no credit.

[00:00:54] And who does that kind of work? Black people, right?

[00:00:56] With previous careers in magazine writing, editing, freelancing and academia,

[00:01:02] Lori is now finally living her creative life on her own terms.

[00:01:07] Why she first believed that her work had to move black people forward.

[00:01:11] Plus, in grappling with her ego,

[00:01:14] Lori shares her vision to make the ghost writing community more visible.

[00:01:19] And the new platform she's launched to connect BIPOC writers to their literary history

[00:01:24] around the world. That and more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:52] So first off, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:56] I knew I was a writer when I was eight years old

[00:01:59] and my mother came home from a rummage sale,

[00:02:03] which is what she usually would do on Saturdays.

[00:02:05] And she brought me an antique Remington typewriter.

[00:02:09] And for the life of me, and I've even asked her this since,

[00:02:12] you know, why did she give it to me? I have an older sister.

[00:02:16] Before this time, I did not walk around saying I wanted a typewriter.

[00:02:20] I did not say I wanted to be a writer, but she gifted it to me.

[00:02:24] I mean, and this is a beautiful typewriter and it worked.

[00:02:27] You know, you had to crank it, you know, put the paper in the ink and everything.

[00:02:31] As soon as I put my fingers on those keys

[00:02:35] and saw a story that came out of my head onto the page, I was hooked.

[00:02:41] I wrote all the time. I wrote stories. I wrote plays.

[00:02:46] I wrote productions for every holiday gathering.

[00:02:49] My mother has 10 sisters, so like any family gathering was like a crowd.

[00:02:54] And we had the biggest house, so it was always in our house.

[00:02:58] And I always had to play and I would take all my cousins play a part.

[00:03:02] And I was the star.

[00:03:03] I was like Spike Lee before Spike Lee or Tyler Perry before Tyler Perry.

[00:03:07] I was like star director, writer, producer.

[00:03:11] Yes. And I would even type out the programs and they'd always say a lorry way production

[00:03:17] for my name. I was like a law and I had a logo even.

[00:03:21] So I so much loved to write it.

[00:03:25] Like put it down on paper again stories, plays, whatever was in my head

[00:03:30] to see it on the page to me was like magical.

[00:03:34] Do you still have that typewriter?

[00:03:36] And does it literally right?

[00:03:38] It's one of the few things I brought with me when I moved to Spain.

[00:03:41] I had it cleaned and upgraded, if you will, like tuned up.

[00:03:45] Like I got it a tune up.

[00:03:46] There was like one place in Philadelphia that actually still

[00:03:51] serviced manual old fashioned typewriters.

[00:03:53] And I took it there.

[00:03:55] Got it all ready to be shipped.

[00:03:57] And it's still with me.

[00:03:59] And I just got a dog and I named my dog Remington because that's the typewriter.

[00:04:03] So yeah.

[00:04:04] That's awesome.

[00:04:05] So then knowing at eight years old that you wanted to write,

[00:04:09] that was the only thing that you were going to do.

[00:04:11] What does that look like in your journey and your career?

[00:04:14] It's interesting because I mean, I was a voracious reader.

[00:04:17] So I think that obviously played into the fact of why I liked writing so much.

[00:04:22] But I read all the time my best friend and I would trade books.

[00:04:27] From the time I was like five or six,

[00:04:29] Archie comics, the Bower's, The Little's, Lord Ingalls Wilder,

[00:04:33] like all those series books.

[00:04:35] So I thought it was going to be a novelist.

[00:04:38] Like that was my dream was to be a fiction writer.

[00:04:40] But I went to college and I could have been an English major,

[00:04:43] but my first creative writing class was a short story class.

[00:04:47] And it's funny because I tell this story and I'm like,

[00:04:49] I got a C in the class and that's what made me never decide that I wasn't good enough to be

[00:04:53] a writer.

[00:04:54] But recently I looked at my transcripts.

[00:04:57] Like when I was moving to Spain, I had to go through on my class.

[00:05:01] I didn't get a C in the class.

[00:05:02] I got a B. But in my mind, because I guess because I didn't get an A,

[00:05:09] which I don't always, I wasn't like an A student,

[00:05:11] but because I didn't excel in the creative writing class.

[00:05:15] And I remember getting some like strong criticism on one of my stories.

[00:05:19] I thought that meant I didn't have talent as a writer.

[00:05:23] So that was like my freshman year.

[00:05:25] So I declared a major in education.

[00:05:27] I was like going to be a teacher and then I was going to just work my way up into education

[00:05:32] administration.

[00:05:32] And I just said, I will just write for myself on the side.

[00:05:36] It wasn't until I spent my junior year of college in Spain where all those lovely siestas,

[00:05:45] you know, like you just have so much time to hang out.

[00:05:49] I had to come to Jesus moment with myself where because I had all this time to really

[00:05:56] just reflect on who I was and what was important to me.

[00:05:59] And I had met so many interesting people from all over the world who didn't have that hustle

[00:06:03] mindset like we did in the U.S.

[00:06:05] I was like, I love writing so much.

[00:06:07] I'm going to give myself a chance to be a writer.

[00:06:10] And if it doesn't work out, I can be a teacher or do whatever else.

[00:06:14] But this thing is what I love to do.

[00:06:17] And so I owe it to myself to try to pursue that passion.

[00:06:21] So when I came back to the U.S., I had one more year of college left.

[00:06:25] And my parents were not going to pay for an extra year of college.

[00:06:29] Like you graduate and do whatever you want.

[00:06:31] You want to be a writer, that's fine.

[00:06:32] But do it on your own time and not on our dime.

[00:06:37] So basically I went into journalism because to me that was,

[00:06:42] you know, I still had this belief that I couldn't be a fiction writer.

[00:06:45] Also fiction writer wasn't an actual job.

[00:06:47] And, you know, the gravy train was done after college.

[00:06:51] I was on my own.

[00:06:53] So I was like, journalist is a writer with a job.

[00:06:55] So who gets a paycheck?

[00:06:57] So I said, that's what I'm going to do.

[00:07:00] And then went to graduate school, got a master's degree in journalism.

[00:07:03] And then from there on, I worked at magazines for, you know, like maybe 15 years.

[00:07:10] I started working at Vibe and then I worked at Entertainment Weekly.

[00:07:14] And then I worked a lot for Essence.

[00:07:16] I never was on staff at Essence, but I, you know,

[00:07:18] did a lot of freelance writing for them and editing.

[00:07:21] And then, you know, different magazines, that was my career.

[00:07:24] And then I started teaching in journalism in Philadelphia at Temple University.

[00:07:30] But all through there I was writing.

[00:07:33] I was always freelance writing or freelance editing.

[00:07:36] And when I started working at Entertainment Weekly

[00:07:39] in the late 90s, that's when I wrote my first book,

[00:07:43] Hairstory Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America.

[00:07:46] And Hairstory actually started as my thesis in graduate school.

[00:07:51] And when I was working at Entertainment Weekly,

[00:07:53] I felt really guilty as a black person who had been raised to believe

[00:07:58] that my work should move the needle somehow towards like racial justice.

[00:08:04] Like I was raised with a lot of privilege.

[00:08:08] I mean, we weren't wealthy, but I went to private schools

[00:08:10] and I went to a really good college.

[00:08:12] And I had advantages, you know, that a lot of other people didn't have.

[00:08:16] And my parents always made me feel like

[00:08:19] clearly you're going to go do something important in the world.

[00:08:23] Writing about Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt did not feel like

[00:08:26] I was moving the rights forward.

[00:08:28] And I just was like at that moment, I was like, this isn't doing the work.

[00:08:34] And so it's paying my bills, but it's not doing the work.

[00:08:37] And that's when I committed to writing Hairstory.

[00:08:40] I had previously met my co-author when we worked at Vibe Magazine

[00:08:45] and we had talked about writing a book together.

[00:08:48] And we had actually gone all the way through of like writing a proposal,

[00:08:52] but we were scared to put it out in the world.

[00:08:55] And that night again, it was like a late night waiting for Brad Pitt's

[00:08:59] publicist to confirm something about banana milkshakes to me.

[00:09:02] And I was like, I have to do something.

[00:09:04] And it was like the next day I sent out our proposal

[00:09:08] to an agent that we had been thinking about sending our proposal to.

[00:09:12] And that just, it actually turned out to be a pretty quick acceptance by an agent.

[00:09:19] Our agent was like, if you write a good proposal,

[00:09:21] if you get this in shape and you write your sample chapters,

[00:09:24] I think I can sell this.

[00:09:26] She sold it pretty quickly.

[00:09:27] And that began my career where I told myself that magazine writing,

[00:09:33] which I enjoyed, but I was always doing pop culture stuff.

[00:09:36] I was always doing pop culture stories for the most part,

[00:09:39] pop culture entertainment, that kind of thing.

[00:09:41] And so then my books that I wrote was the way that I felt like I was contributing

[00:09:46] to advancing the position of black culture in a higher place

[00:09:52] in American, like in the conversation about American culture.

[00:09:57] So, hair story with my first book.

[00:09:59] And then I wrote a memoir, Kinky Gospaccio,

[00:10:01] which is my life story obviously,

[00:10:03] but kind of speaking about my identity as a black woman,

[00:10:07] growing up in mostly white spaces and then traveling

[00:10:09] and seeing what that felt like to be black in other places.

[00:10:13] And then I finally wrote my novel, Substitute Me.

[00:10:18] And then my fourth book was called Same Family, Different Colors.

[00:10:22] And that was a book that felt like the sister book to hair story

[00:10:26] because it was about colorism.

[00:10:27] And it was about colorism in African American community,

[00:10:31] the Latino community, the Asian American community,

[00:10:34] and the mixed race community.

[00:10:36] So yeah, so my writing, my books have felt like what I am staking my claim

[00:10:42] as a change agent and my magazine work is the fun stuff.

[00:10:49] Yugay, what's the whole journey?

[00:10:51] It's interesting to me the number of writers who come on this show

[00:10:57] and declare that creative writing is not a real job.

[00:11:02] That sucks because I don't think white writers maybe feel like that

[00:11:14] and I mean, I can't speak for them, I don't know.

[00:11:16] But it does feel like a very black thing to say like,

[00:11:20] okay, so what's your real job going to be?

[00:11:21] Like you just write, how do you make money?

[00:11:25] Type of deal.

[00:11:28] In deciding that your books were going to be the area where you were doing

[00:11:35] change agent kind of work, does it ever get tiring

[00:11:41] where you feel like you need to have a point to make or to say

[00:11:45] to have a book go in the world?

[00:11:47] Like you can't just like write fun frivolous things

[00:11:50] because it's fun and frivolous?

[00:11:53] That's so funny because that's where I am in my life.

[00:11:56] I just made this monumentous move.

[00:11:59] I left the United States and moved to Spain in 2021

[00:12:04] and when people are like, why did you make that move

[00:12:08] in the middle of a pandemic?

[00:12:10] And I had just made tenure at my university.

[00:12:13] Like I had ascended to all the places that I was supposed to get to

[00:12:18] with my career.

[00:12:19] People thought I was crazy for multiple reasons,

[00:12:23] but I am married to a Spaniard so it wasn't like

[00:12:26] I just picked a random place to move out to.

[00:12:29] But I think because of the pandemic and because of what I call

[00:12:34] Black Lives Matter 2.0,

[00:12:36] sparked by the murder of George Floyd, etc.

[00:12:42] It made me have that kind of reckoning of like,

[00:12:45] life isn't promised on any level, life isn't promised.

[00:12:48] And if you're waiting for something, that's really dumb

[00:12:51] because you don't know if it's ever going to come to pass

[00:12:54] that you have this perfect moment.

[00:12:56] So I moved to Spain literally to do

[00:13:01] addressing what you just asked me, which is that,

[00:13:04] why do I have to do journalism to be a writer?

[00:13:09] When can I write romance novels?

[00:13:12] Which is what I literally grew up secretly reading and loving.

[00:13:18] I used to sneak my aunt's Harlequins.

[00:13:22] When everybody else was reading like Judy Bloom,

[00:13:24] you know the teen Judy Bloom, I was like,

[00:13:27] girl have you seen these Harlequin romances?

[00:13:31] Devour them.

[00:13:32] My aunt had a subscription so she had like

[00:13:34] boxes of them under her bed.

[00:13:37] And so me and my cousin would always read all these romances.

[00:13:39] Anyway, for a long time I was like,

[00:13:41] yeah I'm gonna be a romance writer.

[00:13:43] This is it.

[00:13:44] This is it.

[00:13:44] So moving to Spain was like my decision

[00:13:49] that I was finally gonna allow myself to be the writer

[00:13:53] that I wanted to be when I was 10 years old,

[00:13:56] where creative writing was what I was gonna do.

[00:13:59] Novels, short stories, romance, children's books,

[00:14:03] be a creative writer.

[00:14:05] And the reason I could do this in Spain

[00:14:07] is because healthcare and university education

[00:14:10] are not cost prohibitive.

[00:14:11] I don't have to worry that I can't send my kids to college

[00:14:16] because college can be like $1,000 for the whole year.

[00:14:20] And healthcare is socialized here.

[00:14:23] So I don't have to worry that I'm gonna die of like the blue

[00:14:28] because I can't afford to go to the doctor

[00:14:31] or send my children to the doctor.

[00:14:33] So yeah, so my moment, this is my moment to say

[00:14:38] I don't have to be a change agent.

[00:14:41] I don't have to write serious hard stories

[00:14:45] to A, to have a job and B, to claim the title of writer.

[00:14:50] Like I really am excited for this second half of my life

[00:14:54] as a writer to embrace the idea that I can,

[00:14:58] not only can I write fun stuff, beautiful stuff,

[00:15:02] stuff that lights up my soul,

[00:15:03] stuff about black people in Spain or Morocco

[00:15:06] or just having these amazing fantasy, not fantasy,

[00:15:11] but fantastic, glorious, beautiful, delicious lives.

[00:15:15] And that's also, I feel, moving the race forward,

[00:15:20] if you will, because we deserve to have these stories.

[00:15:23] We deserve to have these stories.

[00:15:25] And as writers, we deserve to write them

[00:15:27] and not feel like every story has to be

[00:15:29] some heavy exploration of our traumatic past.

[00:15:33] How free do you feel?

[00:15:35] Because it sounds so liberated.

[00:15:38] Well, it will be, and this is also just part of the writer's life,

[00:15:44] is that I have started doing ghost writing

[00:15:46] to be my like nine to five writer's job.

[00:15:50] And I have been working back to back on ghost projects.

[00:15:55] So it is only now, literally now that I'm able

[00:16:01] to really begin this free life that I had planned for myself.

[00:16:06] I mean, it's absolutely delightful.

[00:16:07] Not only am I writing, I'm painting, I'm not a painter,

[00:16:10] but I feel that as a creative person,

[00:16:13] that we need to, that our writing isn't just

[00:16:16] sitting down at our desks, to be a writer,

[00:16:20] you have to go and live in the world

[00:16:21] and you have to express yourself and feel

[00:16:23] and write poetry and paint and collect rocks

[00:16:27] and pick flowers and all of that.

[00:16:30] If you're going to write beautifully,

[00:16:32] you have to see beauty in all these different places

[00:16:34] and all these different ways.

[00:16:36] So I have had the opportunity to do those things here

[00:16:40] that I never did those things when I lived in Philadelphia,

[00:16:43] when I was working in academia and writing on the side

[00:16:47] or in my basement office trying to snatch a piece here

[00:16:51] and a piece there.

[00:16:52] So you mentioned ghost writing.

[00:16:54] How many ghost writing projects have you done so far?

[00:16:58] Two officially.

[00:16:59] I'm finishing my third and I've done another big project

[00:17:04] that nobody will never know that I did

[00:17:06] because it was such a ghost project

[00:17:08] and I had to sign an NDA on it to, you know,

[00:17:12] I'm seriously ghosting.

[00:17:15] Nobody should know.

[00:17:16] Nobody will know that I ever did it, which is fine.

[00:17:18] I mean, that's how some things work.

[00:17:21] And yeah, and I actually fell into ghost writing.

[00:17:23] So it wasn't something I was pursuing,

[00:17:25] but it turned out to be very lucrative.

[00:17:28] Originally, it was just like I was doing it as a favor

[00:17:30] for somebody and then I realized

[00:17:33] this was an actual profession and a skill set

[00:17:36] that could be utilized for financial gain.

[00:17:40] And it also, I mean, I think of every writing project

[00:17:42] as a learning experience,

[00:17:43] but really looking at it more as like,

[00:17:46] oh, I could do one ghost project a year for money

[00:17:49] and then have more time the rest of the time

[00:17:52] to do my own projects.

[00:17:53] How do you?

[00:17:55] Fall into someone else's voice story.

[00:18:00] Do you approach it like fiction as a ghost writer?

[00:18:03] Or do you like take notes, transcription?

[00:18:06] Like what is that like?

[00:18:08] Yeah, it's really interesting

[00:18:10] because every project is different.

[00:18:12] Some people that you're working with

[00:18:14] feel themselves to be good storytellers,

[00:18:17] good writers and maybe they have already written something

[00:18:20] and so you're kind of just helping them shape

[00:18:23] what they've written.

[00:18:25] My first project was with Ibtihaj Muhammad,

[00:18:28] the Muslim Spencer.

[00:18:30] And my second project was with two people,

[00:18:34] Bobby Love and his wife, Cheryl Love,

[00:18:36] whose story was featured in Humans of New York.

[00:18:38] He was a young man who got caught up

[00:18:41] in the criminal justice system

[00:18:43] after robbing several banks and then he escaped prison.

[00:18:47] So in both of those stories,

[00:18:49] both of those situations,

[00:18:51] Ibtihaj and Bobby Love and his wife, Cheryl Love,

[00:18:54] they're not writers.

[00:18:56] So the way I work with people is that I do,

[00:19:00] I interview them and I work from transcripts

[00:19:04] and then from transcripts,

[00:19:07] I have to use my skills as a storyteller

[00:19:09] to turn it into a story

[00:19:11] because obviously somebody speaking

[00:19:13] is not what you want to read on the page.

[00:19:16] And so my skills as both a memoirist

[00:19:20] a journalist and a creative writer all come into play

[00:19:24] because just as an example,

[00:19:27] someone may tell the story about

[00:19:29] the time they met their girlfriends,

[00:19:32] the first time they saw them.

[00:19:34] And I can ask them, what did she look like?

[00:19:36] What did you notice?

[00:19:37] But they're not going to tell me

[00:19:38] what the setting was like.

[00:19:39] They're not going to tell me exactly

[00:19:42] what the people around them were doing.

[00:19:45] Those kinds of details that writers know

[00:19:48] that you need to fill in a scene,

[00:19:50] but somebody just recounting a part of their lives may not.

[00:19:54] So that's basically how I work

[00:19:57] is through lots and lots of interviewing.

[00:20:00] Before the pandemic,

[00:20:01] like for example, when I worked with Ibtihaj,

[00:20:03] I had the opportunity to go to her home

[00:20:05] and talk to her parents.

[00:20:07] So again, it's really journalism

[00:20:09] in finding all these other people who can fill

[00:20:12] even though the story is told in her voice,

[00:20:15] the more I can get into their lives

[00:20:19] and see where they do their thing,

[00:20:22] where they were born, that kind of thing, the better.

[00:20:25] I think that feels the nosy part of every journalist

[00:20:28] where you get to go and just dig all in their lives

[00:20:31] because it's the job.

[00:20:33] That's it.

[00:20:33] That's why I love being a journalist

[00:20:35] because I'm just super nosy.

[00:20:37] Same. Same as these.

[00:20:40] Like you want to know everything.

[00:20:42] So you mentioned that you were doing this in Spain

[00:20:47] and you wrote a blog post about the word for ghost writer in Spain

[00:20:54] and it's not very favorable.

[00:20:57] So let's talk about that.

[00:20:58] What is the word for ghost writer in Spanish

[00:21:01] and how are you referred to by profession in Spain?

[00:21:05] Yeah, so the word for ghost writer in Spain,

[00:21:09] the word is negro or negro literario,

[00:21:13] like literary black person.

[00:21:16] The term is more referring to slave,

[00:21:20] so which is the same in French.

[00:21:23] Like the Spanish copied the French

[00:21:24] and the French term is actually what the translation would be

[00:21:28] like the N word.

[00:21:30] That's their word for it.

[00:21:32] And that was because I mean there's a long history to it

[00:21:36] but the idea is a ghost writer does all the work

[00:21:42] and gets no credit like a slave, like a black person.

[00:21:46] And so it feels pejorative.

[00:21:49] It feels racist.

[00:21:51] As they are saying, you're saying the work I'm doing is again,

[00:21:56] you're doing all the work, get no credit

[00:21:58] and who does that kind of work?

[00:21:59] Black people, right?

[00:22:00] I mean, so out of base, it was completely racist

[00:22:03] but it also speaks to this profession

[00:22:06] which I am firmly entrenched in and am getting paid

[00:22:10] and can't complain fully.

[00:22:14] But I will say that some of the projects I've done

[00:22:19] have made me feel like that.

[00:22:22] Like, I am doing all of this work

[00:22:25] and you will never know that I did any of it.

[00:22:27] And as a writer, as the person who identifies

[00:22:29] as a writer who wants her name.

[00:22:32] The credit, yeah.

[00:22:33] Right?

[00:22:34] I mean.

[00:22:34] You want the byline.

[00:22:35] You want to see.

[00:22:36] Exactly.

[00:22:36] Buy.

[00:22:37] Exactly.

[00:22:39] I don't think I'm actually very well cut out for this work

[00:22:42] because I am too ego driven in that sense

[00:22:45] where if I did all this work,

[00:22:47] two of the books that I've done,

[00:22:49] my name is right on the cover

[00:22:50] and I always ask for that credit, cover credit

[00:22:53] because I mean if I wrote this book,

[00:22:56] I want the credit for it.

[00:22:58] I feel like that should be a given.

[00:23:01] The New York Times just wrote this long piece

[00:23:03] after Prince Harry's book just came out spare

[00:23:06] because everybody was talking about his ghost writer

[00:23:08] and this brought up this conversation about just what,

[00:23:11] you know, nobody knows who Prince Harry's ghost writer is

[00:23:14] except the ghost writing community, right?

[00:23:16] If you look at the cover of his book,

[00:23:17] it does not say Prince Harry and his ghost writer.

[00:23:21] Even I don't even think it sends it on the inside cover.

[00:23:23] It might, I'm not sure.

[00:23:24] But the point is the media will be like,

[00:23:27] oh look at this book that celebrity X or celebrity Y wrote

[00:23:31] and the celebrity is like, oh I just finished my book when.

[00:23:35] You didn't.

[00:23:36] The ghost writer finished your book.

[00:23:38] I mean, who just did all this work,

[00:23:40] did all that, wrote the book.

[00:23:42] You did not write the book.

[00:23:44] You didn't go through the 16,000 edits with your editor.

[00:23:47] You didn't do all the fact check.

[00:23:49] Like you didn't do anything in terms

[00:23:51] of what it means to actually write a book.

[00:23:55] To me, there's something inherently wrong with this profession

[00:23:59] when the ghost doesn't get any credit.

[00:24:04] So I do feel, you know, having done this now four times

[00:24:08] that there is something like,

[00:24:11] I feel like the Spanish and the French,

[00:24:13] even though it's obviously very pejorative

[00:24:15] and they weren't thinking about it this way.

[00:24:16] But the fact that they acknowledge this job is

[00:24:20] the person does all the work and gets known to the credit.

[00:24:22] That is actually what ghost writers do.

[00:24:26] And there are people who are like,

[00:24:28] I don't literally, I don't want to be a writer.

[00:24:30] I don't have my own stories to tell.

[00:24:32] I enjoy helping other people telling their stories.

[00:24:35] This is, you know, they specialize in it.

[00:24:38] They're very good at it.

[00:24:40] They enjoy the process.

[00:24:41] They like getting to know powerful, important people

[00:24:45] and helping them, you know, do whatever they want to do.

[00:24:48] And they go home, collect their paycheck

[00:24:50] and get the next one.

[00:24:51] And it is a profession.

[00:24:53] So I'm not suggesting that nobody should do it.

[00:24:57] But they definitely, I think if the point I am trying to make

[00:25:01] is that there's definitely a personality

[00:25:03] that suits, that's well suited for it.

[00:25:07] And there should be, I feel like more acknowledgement

[00:25:11] by book reviewers, the media in general,

[00:25:15] that if they're like, wow, what a great book,

[00:25:17] but you know good and well that that person

[00:25:19] is not a writer.

[00:25:20] They didn't write that book.

[00:25:22] At least acknowledge or at least ask the question,

[00:25:25] oh so you have a new book out, you know,

[00:25:27] business person of the day.

[00:25:29] What was it like to work with a ghost writer

[00:25:31] to write this book as opposed to

[00:25:34] tell us what it was like to write this book?

[00:25:36] Because you know they didn't.

[00:25:37] We should be more transparent about that process

[00:25:40] to give credit to the people who are doing that work.

[00:25:43] It reminds me of when President Obama's memoir

[00:25:47] came out of Promised Land.

[00:25:48] And I remember the reviews and everything.

[00:25:52] And one, I think it might have been the New York Times

[00:25:54] that said, you know, presidential memoirs

[00:25:57] usually come out one or two years after the presidency,

[00:25:59] but it had been like four because it came out

[00:26:02] as Trump was leaving office.

[00:26:03] And one of the remarks was, and it took so long

[00:26:07] because he wrote it himself.

[00:26:09] Like that was like the marvel.

[00:26:11] And it also makes me think of, I don't know,

[00:26:13] when Janelle Monáe's book came out

[00:26:15] and she went on CBS this morning

[00:26:18] and she was sitting there and they're talking to her

[00:26:20] about the book and she's shouting out all of the authors

[00:26:22] who helped her write these short stories

[00:26:26] that her name is on.

[00:26:27] And like she kept saying their names

[00:26:29] and then the interviews are trying to push back

[00:26:31] and say, well you wrote this

[00:26:32] and you'd had this story and this is that.

[00:26:34] And she's trying to shout out all the people

[00:26:36] who helped her shape it.

[00:26:37] I thought that was a very interesting dichotomy

[00:26:39] but I wonder, is it because you've had books,

[00:26:43] your own books with your own byline,

[00:26:45] your journalism, your memoir,

[00:26:48] your creative nonfiction, your fiction,

[00:26:50] that you know what it is to, for what it's worth,

[00:26:54] be front and center with a project, with your name on it.

[00:26:57] So then stepping like behind that curtain

[00:26:59] and assuming the role of ghostwriter

[00:27:01] just feels like it's a coat that doesn't fit type of deal.

[00:27:06] I mean, it is ego but I mean,

[00:27:07] it's also that it's ego and it's work

[00:27:11] that's almost thankless.

[00:27:13] Yes, because that's it exactly.

[00:27:16] So that's why I'm saying that this is not a job for every writer.

[00:27:23] I'm actually thinking about teaching a class on ghostwriting

[00:27:27] because it is very lucrative.

[00:27:29] But I would caution people that because what is the joy

[00:27:34] of a writer to see your words in print?

[00:27:38] That's the joy like when you see your words in print

[00:27:41] and you see your words out in the world

[00:27:43] and you see other people reading them and being moved by them.

[00:27:47] The only difference when you're doing it as a ghost is like

[00:27:50] your name isn't on it.

[00:27:51] So people can't say, wow, Lori, what a great job.

[00:27:55] Like this book moved me.

[00:27:58] And so there's that level.

[00:28:00] I mean, that's what we as writers want.

[00:28:02] We want to move people with our work.

[00:28:04] We want to see the effect it has on them

[00:28:06] or depending on what the story is,

[00:28:09] whether it's fiction or nonfiction,

[00:28:10] we're putting it out in public to have a reaction.

[00:28:14] So there's that.

[00:28:16] And then there's also like, again, if you do this work.

[00:28:22] And I think this would be true of anything.

[00:28:24] I mean, if you baked a cake and you spent all your time

[00:28:27] and energy, you bought the ingredients,

[00:28:29] you mix it up, you use your mama's recipe,

[00:28:31] and you put it in a cake contest

[00:28:33] and somebody else was like, oh, I made this cake.

[00:28:36] You be like, excuse me?

[00:28:38] No, you didn't.

[00:28:40] Oh, well, I put the candles on it

[00:28:43] and I put the decorations on it.

[00:28:45] You would be really mad.

[00:28:47] I mean, your instinct is to say, but I did this work.

[00:28:51] How come I'm not getting the credit for it?

[00:28:53] And it's not if I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[00:28:55] I mean, I think that's natural

[00:28:57] if you put your heart and soul into something,

[00:28:58] and especially if this is your talent,

[00:29:02] if this is your gift.

[00:29:03] I mean, I probably wouldn't be as upset

[00:29:05] if I did make a cake

[00:29:06] and I gave it to my sister, my sister can't cook.

[00:29:08] And I was like, girl, tell them you made it.

[00:29:10] Just go ahead and tell them you made it.

[00:29:11] I wouldn't care.

[00:29:12] It's not like I make my livelihood on cakes, right?

[00:29:15] But if this is something I have perfected

[00:29:17] and this is my livelihood, this is what I do

[00:29:20] and I don't get the credit for it,

[00:29:22] then it does make me think like, what am I doing this for?

[00:29:26] I could have written another book of my own

[00:29:29] in the same time period.

[00:29:31] So it's all of these things.

[00:29:33] It's a head game really.

[00:29:34] And as I'm saying this, I try to think,

[00:29:37] is there another profession where somebody goes,

[00:29:40] I've created a whole thing from my brain

[00:29:42] and you may take the credit for it.

[00:29:45] That's kind of crazy.

[00:29:46] I mean, what other businesses or professions do we do that?

[00:29:51] I don't think there is maybe another profession

[00:29:53] where it's done like that,

[00:29:55] but I think there are examples of it in other industries.

[00:29:59] And I think most notably with books and writing,

[00:30:04] how many books are adapted into movies or into TV shows.

[00:30:09] And then those shows and those movies

[00:30:12] are more remembered than the book.

[00:30:14] And the characters that are portrayed by these actors

[00:30:18] are more remembered than the author who actually wrote the story.

[00:30:21] I think that doesn't happen all the time.

[00:30:24] Like, you know, with The Color Purple,

[00:30:26] you will always know that that's an Alice Walker novel.

[00:30:28] In the novel, in all of its iterations,

[00:30:31] it's the novel that's the base,

[00:30:33] but that doesn't happen with every book.

[00:30:36] Absolutely.

[00:30:38] Queen Sugar.

[00:30:40] Like I feel like more people have watched the show

[00:30:42] than have read Natalie Bazil's book.

[00:30:45] And that's a little problematic.

[00:30:48] So it may not be the same as where you're completely hitting,

[00:30:52] but I do think that a lot of time with writing in general

[00:30:55] that the work of the writer who may not enjoy the spotlight

[00:31:03] or just is not even thrust into it

[00:31:05] is then co-opted by other people in another role.

[00:31:11] Screenwriters, for example, like you'll see a movie

[00:31:14] and it's this brainchild of this screenwriter

[00:31:17] and you have no idea unless you're reading the credits

[00:31:19] like original screenplay by,

[00:31:22] but it's the actors who get all the credit

[00:31:24] and it's the directors who get all the credit

[00:31:27] and that type of thing.

[00:31:29] So I think writers are just not thanked enough,

[00:31:33] I think is maybe what I'm getting at.

[00:31:34] Like there needs to be more thank yous

[00:31:36] because you wouldn't have all the content

[00:31:37] on all these streaming platforms

[00:31:39] without the writers to write them.

[00:31:41] I agree 100% Nikisha

[00:31:43] and that's why I love your podcast so much.

[00:31:46] I think that one of the reasons that we don't big up

[00:31:50] the writers is because we don't big up writers, right?

[00:31:53] We just don't have the platforms.

[00:31:56] A friend of mine just won the NAACP award

[00:32:00] and they don't put them on the big night,

[00:32:03] they're on the night before nobody sees them

[00:32:05] on the big show and you're so right.

[00:32:08] Who sits and waits for the screenplay credits

[00:32:11] on the movie?

[00:32:12] It's the director, it's the actors.

[00:32:15] So I hear you 100%

[00:32:17] and that's the new platform that I just launched

[00:32:20] Read, Write and Create.

[00:32:22] Part of my journey as really embracing

[00:32:26] my own desire to do creative writing

[00:32:29] is to also just elevate creative writers

[00:32:33] and what we do and put it as not just

[00:32:37] something you do by yourself on the typewriter

[00:32:39] or on the computer in a corner

[00:32:40] in your little office but as a lifestyle.

[00:32:43] Like the literary lifestyle is particularly for

[00:32:46] black writers and other writers of color

[00:32:49] is what my whole emphasis on this part

[00:32:52] of my life is all about.

[00:32:54] It's like literary tourism, like a literary lifestyle

[00:32:59] incorporating this idea that books and writing

[00:33:04] are as important and as exciting

[00:33:06] as fundamental to any other aspects

[00:33:11] of popular culture and that this is what has

[00:33:14] to happen for the writers to get the respect, right?

[00:33:18] Those of us who are into content creation and media

[00:33:22] to make sure that we are creating content

[00:33:25] that uplifts the writers, that showcases the writers

[00:33:28] because we're a pop culture based society

[00:33:31] and if we don't see it on TikTok, Instagram

[00:33:34] if it's not on the Today Show, right?

[00:33:36] If it's not streaming on Disney, then I guess

[00:33:38] it's not real or it's not important.

[00:33:41] And so I feel like we have to train people

[00:33:43] with to train the writers themselves

[00:33:44] to take up space but we also have to train

[00:33:46] the world to recognize that like you just said

[00:33:48] without the writers you don't have anything.

[00:33:51] You don't have the stories, you don't have anything.

[00:33:54] So you talked about your new platform Read, Write, Create.

[00:33:58] Tell us more about it like so what is it?

[00:34:01] Where can people find it?

[00:34:02] What are you trying to do?

[00:34:03] Give us the whole rundown.

[00:34:06] It's called Read, Write, and Create

[00:34:08] and the tagline is a sanctuary for BIPOC writers

[00:34:12] and basically it is an online platform.

[00:34:16] It's a blog and a podcast where I provide resources

[00:34:21] for BIPOC writers.

[00:34:23] So resources being everything from just inspirational pep talks

[00:34:27] on the podcast to blog posts that are a compilation

[00:34:31] of all of the writing retreats for BIPOC writers

[00:34:35] specifically that are happening in this calendar year,

[00:34:38] for example, calls for writers, open submissions,

[00:34:43] contests.

[00:34:44] I'm planning on hosting my first retreat

[00:34:46] in the south of Spain for BIPOC writers later this year

[00:34:49] and I'm trying to-

[00:34:51] I want to go!

[00:34:53] I hope you do.

[00:34:56] I'm doing workshops and classes

[00:34:59] and really trying to become the Black woman

[00:35:05] who really highlight literary tourism

[00:35:07] for people as well because this is what I'm talking about

[00:35:12] is that if we don't highlight how encompassing

[00:35:16] the literary lifestyle can be, then people don't recognize it

[00:35:20] and literary tourism is what I do naturally

[00:35:23] and it's a thing but when we think about literary tourism

[00:35:26] it's like you go to England and you find out

[00:35:28] where Jane Austen lived or you go to Charles Dickens' house.

[00:35:32] Well, I don't rate Jane Austen.

[00:35:34] Charles Dickens is not on my list of people who I want to meet

[00:35:37] but nonetheless if I was on my own

[00:35:40] and I'm doing literary tourism it's like

[00:35:42] I'm going to James Baldwin's Paris, right?

[00:35:45] I want to go to Zorniel Hurston's Eatonville.

[00:35:48] I want to-

[00:35:49] Of course because I'm in Spain,

[00:35:52] I am all about finding Langston Hughes.

[00:35:55] Langston Hughes was here covering the Civil War

[00:35:58] in the 1930s and he was in Madrid and Barcelona.

[00:36:01] I'm trying to find out where he was

[00:36:03] I can create these like a literary tour

[00:36:06] if you want to see where Langston Hughes

[00:36:07] supposedly found his voice in Spain

[00:36:09] when he was here reporting

[00:36:12] and so I would like to put markers in the places

[00:36:15] where Langston Hughes was reporting from

[00:36:17] when he was in Madrid and Barcelona for example.

[00:36:20] So my idea is to showcase that we as people of color

[00:36:25] who have our own literary heroes

[00:36:27] that when we travel, which I feel like

[00:36:30] most people who are readers are also travelers

[00:36:32] you know but when we travel

[00:36:33] we want to find the bookstores

[00:36:35] we want to find the homes of our literary ancestors

[00:36:38] or heroes, whatever they might be

[00:36:40] and you know create that as well.

[00:36:43] Like I want to create this whole like ecosystem

[00:36:47] of sumptuous literary living

[00:36:50] for BIPOC writers and the people who love to read them

[00:36:53] that's what I'm trying to do with this platform

[00:36:56] Read, Write, and Create

[00:36:56] always elevating BIPOC writers

[00:36:59] because you know that's my people.

[00:37:03] Amen

[00:37:05] So then I know you're over prepared for this section

[00:37:08] so let's get into this speed around in this game

[00:37:11] before we go for the afternoon

[00:37:14] What is your favorite book?

[00:37:16] So as a child my favorite book was Anne of Green Gables

[00:37:19] the whole series

[00:37:19] As a young adult I was really into romance

[00:37:22] and there was this book called The Flame in the Flower

[00:37:25] by Kathleenie Woodwiss

[00:37:26] My current favorite is just

[00:37:28] the most recent book that I loved

[00:37:31] that I can't stop talking about

[00:37:32] is Black Cake by Charmaine Wilkerson

[00:37:36] Who is your favorite author?

[00:37:38] Bernice McFadden

[00:37:39] I will read anything that Bernice McFadden writes

[00:37:42] Anything

[00:37:42] Favorite book to movie adaptation?

[00:37:46] I think I'm gonna have to go with

[00:37:49] it's a tie between the color purple

[00:37:51] which I just I know

[00:37:52] almost everybody says that on your show

[00:37:54] but it is really really good

[00:37:58] but also I'm gonna say The Road to St. Anna

[00:38:02] It's a James McFried book that actually

[00:38:05] I did not like

[00:38:06] but the movie was amazing

[00:38:08] Didn't Spike do the movie?

[00:38:09] Yes exactly

[00:38:10] Yes Spike did the movie

[00:38:12] I thought the movie was really good

[00:38:14] and then I went back

[00:38:15] I never heard of the book

[00:38:16] went back and read the book

[00:38:17] I was like oh no

[00:38:20] And I love James McFried

[00:38:21] I mean almost every other James McFried book

[00:38:23] I love but that when I was like

[00:38:24] what is happening?

[00:38:25] I can't even follow this

[00:38:26] but the movie was excellent

[00:38:28] So I have to throw you curveball questions now

[00:38:31] because you're so prepared

[00:38:32] Top three literary tourism hot spots

[00:38:36] Paris because of James Baldwin

[00:38:39] Jordyn Herson's Eatonville Florida

[00:38:42] And I am about to go to Morocco

[00:38:44] so I can't say specifically

[00:38:48] but I know this is a really fun fact

[00:38:51] The very first public library is in Morocco

[00:38:55] and I believe it's in Fez in their capital

[00:38:58] and it was founded by a woman

[00:39:00] a Muslim woman created the world's first library

[00:39:03] That sounds like something the black woman would do

[00:39:06] because it's Morocco which is in Africa

[00:39:08] so we're gonna say she's black

[00:39:10] It sounds like what we do in the world

[00:39:13] that the black woman created the world's first library

[00:39:15] We're gonna claim it unless you tell us otherwise

[00:39:18] I am going to be writing a post about it

[00:39:20] so people can come and fact check me

[00:39:21] I will double triple check

[00:39:23] but literary Morocco will be my first literary tenor on the read write and create blog

[00:39:28] So y'all come and fact check it and see if I was accurate

[00:39:32] I will know the truth

[00:39:33] I know one of the shore library founded by a woman

[00:39:38] one of the oldest if not the first library in the world

[00:39:41] That's awesome

[00:39:42] So you're already an expat

[00:39:44] and living like this fabulous life in Spain

[00:39:46] where you get to travel to all these places

[00:39:49] but if money were truly no object

[00:39:52] where would you go what would you do and where would you live

[00:39:55] Okay

[00:39:56] I would go to Zanzibar

[00:40:01] which on the east coast of Kenya right

[00:40:04] only because it just sounds so cool

[00:40:07] and I've seen pictures that make it look so beautiful

[00:40:10] and I would do exactly what I'm doing now

[00:40:12] I would be reading

[00:40:13] I would be writing

[00:40:14] but I would be dipping my feet

[00:40:16] in the beautiful crystal blue ocean

[00:40:18] surrounded by beautiful black people

[00:40:20] and probably leading like literary workshops in Zanzibar

[00:40:24] because I mean come on

[00:40:25] come and write with me in Zanzibar

[00:40:27] it just sounds wonderful

[00:40:29] that's what I would do

[00:40:31] Name three things on your bucket list

[00:40:32] My bucket list is really um

[00:40:38] it's kind of done already

[00:40:39] so the three things where I wanted to be a mother

[00:40:42] I wanted to be an author

[00:40:43] and I wanted to live abroad

[00:40:45] and I did that

[00:40:47] had my baby and my first book in the same year

[00:40:50] they both came out in 2001

[00:40:52] my first book and my first child

[00:40:54] and I moved to Spain 2021

[00:40:56] so like and and I'm saying that

[00:41:00] like I said before I moved to Spain

[00:41:02] because I was like it's now or never

[00:41:04] I mean we don't have tomorrow's not promise

[00:41:07] and I'm a big proponent

[00:41:08] in not having a bucket list

[00:41:09] and then dying and having like

[00:41:11] do what you can do now

[00:41:12] still having a bucket list yeah

[00:41:13] yeah do what you can do now

[00:41:16] What brings you joy?

[00:41:18] My children bring me joy

[00:41:19] my two older sons have had some difficult times

[00:41:23] and they're both on the other side of those things

[00:41:26] and like I said because being a mom

[00:41:29] was one of my bucket list items

[00:41:31] when they were struggling

[00:41:33] it was really hard for me

[00:41:35] because I thought that was what I was supposed to do

[00:41:37] was be a mom

[00:41:38] and when they were struggling

[00:41:38] I was like so I did something wrong

[00:41:40] or I didn't do enough

[00:41:42] and so all three of my children

[00:41:45] are here now with me in Spain

[00:41:46] as of like three days ago

[00:41:49] and it's just joyful to have healthy happy children

[00:41:57] they're 21, 18 and 11

[00:41:59] the 11 year old is still innocent

[00:42:02] so that's fine

[00:42:03] but the older ones

[00:42:04] it really is a joy to see your young black sons

[00:42:09] content with their life

[00:42:10] and looking forward to the future

[00:42:12] that is that that's a blessing

[00:42:14] and the other thing that brings me joy

[00:42:17] of course reading

[00:42:18] but also really good food

[00:42:20] so like what's the best Spanish dish

[00:42:22] that you've had since you've been abroad

[00:42:24] girl please don't ask me that

[00:42:25] because now I'm gonna have to say something nasty

[00:42:29] Spanish food

[00:42:30] like my tongue is bored

[00:42:32] because Spanish food is it's good

[00:42:35] don't get me wrong

[00:42:36] it is good

[00:42:37] but it's very plain

[00:42:38] like the three spices

[00:42:40] it's bland

[00:42:41] it's bland

[00:42:42] it's bland

[00:42:43] because like there's like three spices

[00:42:46] paprika salt and garlic

[00:42:47] which can be delicious

[00:42:49] but I'm bored

[00:42:50] it's been two years

[00:42:51] the best dish that I've had here

[00:42:53] are the ones that I make

[00:42:54] like I make Jamaican curries

[00:42:55] I just made a new Trinidadian shrimp curry

[00:42:57] like I gotta

[00:42:59] make it up for you

[00:43:00] it's official

[00:43:01] we're friends

[00:43:01] I'm coming to visit

[00:43:02] and we're gonna eat in

[00:43:05] I will cook for you

[00:43:06] I mean if you're new here

[00:43:08] I'll be like oh chase all these lovely things

[00:43:10] and then after three days

[00:43:11] you'd be like I'm bored

[00:43:12] and I'll be like I'll cook for you now

[00:43:14] yes

[00:43:14] all right

[00:43:15] so then what brings you peace

[00:43:18] walking on the beach

[00:43:19] I'm in Malaga

[00:43:20] I'm right on the beach

[00:43:21] I literally can see the ocean

[00:43:22] from the Mediterranean

[00:43:23] from my window

[00:43:25] yes

[00:43:26] goes

[00:43:27] okay

[00:43:28] so rewriting the classics

[00:43:30] name one book

[00:43:31] you wish you would have written

[00:43:33] anything by Jesmyn Ward

[00:43:36] anything

[00:43:38] take a book

[00:43:40] thing I'm very saying

[00:43:41] okay

[00:43:43] what's one book where you want to change the ending

[00:43:46] and how would you do it

[00:43:47] in Yad Vyasi

[00:43:48] I don't know if I'm pronouncing her last name right

[00:43:50] Homegoing

[00:43:52] I just would have made the

[00:43:54] the love story happen sooner

[00:43:56] towards the end

[00:43:56] like I feel like

[00:43:57] the ending was the good part

[00:43:59] like the ending was the final resolution

[00:44:01] of the love story

[00:44:02] and that was

[00:44:03] so much of the

[00:44:04] I wanted to happen earlier

[00:44:06] that's probably the only thing

[00:44:07] that's the change that I would make

[00:44:09] okay

[00:44:10] and then name a book that you think is overrated

[00:44:13] and why

[00:44:13] I'm just gonna say like Shakespeare in general

[00:44:16] which is probably a big

[00:44:18] thing to say

[00:44:20] but I just don't see what the big deal about Shakespeare is

[00:44:24] like I feel like

[00:44:25] the work is supposed to be so foundational

[00:44:28] and I know there's things that I'm

[00:44:30] just

[00:44:31] I'm not saying don't teach Shakespeare

[00:44:33] but to act like Shakespeare

[00:44:35] is the greatest thing since sliced bread

[00:44:38] for the literary world

[00:44:40] especially since

[00:44:41] according to my research

[00:44:43] Shakespeare was really a pen name for a woman

[00:44:45] like it's a woman who did all this work

[00:44:47] I was gonna say I like didn't Shakespeare have a ghost ride

[00:44:51] yes

[00:44:51] it was a woman who didn't get any credit

[00:44:54] again you know

[00:44:55] full circle moment here

[00:44:57] but so that's my

[00:44:59] I feel like Shakespeare is so intimidating

[00:45:04] and so we tell people like oh yes

[00:45:06] Shakespeare is the best and it's so important

[00:45:09] and it's

[00:45:10] if you don't like it or you don't understand it

[00:45:13] you're

[00:45:14] you know

[00:45:14] it's almost like shameful to admit that like yeah

[00:45:16] I didn't really get it or I didn't think it was that good

[00:45:19] or I wasn't moved by these characters

[00:45:21] or something like that

[00:45:22] and I feel like it should be okay to

[00:45:25] to

[00:45:26] take him

[00:45:26] and not enjoy his work

[00:45:29] or it's not get it

[00:45:30] or not feel moved by it

[00:45:32] and not feel like you should be ashamed

[00:45:34] that you're not a big fan of Shakespeare

[00:45:36] right

[00:45:37] got it

[00:45:39] and so my final question for you today

[00:45:40] Lori

[00:45:41] when you are dead and gone and among the ancestors

[00:45:44] what would you like someone to write about the legacy of work

[00:45:48] and words that you left behind

[00:45:50] I hope that people

[00:45:53] look at my work

[00:45:55] and see some

[00:45:57] see

[00:45:58] stories

[00:45:59] both true and fictionalized

[00:46:03] that

[00:46:04] tried to expand the definition of

[00:46:08] the black experience

[00:46:10] I hope that

[00:46:13] yeah that the work I leave behind

[00:46:16] really says this is a woman who wanted to

[00:46:22] wanted people to understand that the black experience was not

[00:46:26] singular

[00:46:27] and that she advocated for black people's stories to be told widely and expansively

[00:46:37] amen

[00:46:39] thank you Lori

[00:46:39] big thank you to Lori L. Tharps for being here today on Black and Published

[00:46:45] make sure you check out Lori's new platform for BIPOC writers

[00:46:49] read write and create

[00:46:52] and if you're not following Lori

[00:46:53] check her out on the socials

[00:46:55] she's at Lori L. Tharps on Instagram

[00:47:00] that's our show for the week

[00:47:02] and the season

[00:47:03] if you like this episode

[00:47:05] and want more black and published

[00:47:07] head to our Instagram page

[00:47:08] it's at Black and Published

[00:47:11] and that's BLK and published

[00:47:15] also like and subscribe on your favorite podcast app

[00:47:19] and share the show with a friend

[00:47:21] I'll be back for season four in 2024

[00:47:25] mama needs a hiatus okay

[00:47:28] but I'll talk to you then

[00:47:30] peace