Coming of Womanhood with Amy DuBois Barnett

[00:00:00] What's good, family? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, the host of Black & Published Podcast, and the author of the novel The Seven Daughters of Dupree. This historical fiction novel is about the secrets kept between mothers and daughters over the course of seven generations, and is told backwards in time from 1995 to 1860. The Seven Daughters of Dupree was published January 27, 2026, and is available everywhere books are sold.

[00:00:28] So if you can, please consider getting a copy of The Seven Daughters of Dupree today. This is the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. She at some point was gently like, hey, so, you know, do you think maybe you want to kind of come up with a title that relates more to the themes of the book? And I was like, no, no, I don't. Actually.

[00:00:57] It's called sugar. It's been sugar for 20 years, lady! What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams, and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Amy DuBois Barnett, author of the novel If I Ruled the World. It's a story Amy began during her tenure in corporate media, specifically working as an editor at several major magazines,

[00:01:27] including Essence, Ebony, and as the editor-in-chief of Honey. And then when I got a two-book contract from my wonderful publisher, Flatiron, which changed my life completely. Because a one-book contract is like, great, it's like wonderful, you know, my book's going to be published, a two-book contract is like, well, shit, I'm an author. You know what I mean? The feeling of like, oh, I'm an author now, you know, and I mean that just completely changed my life to have fulfilled a dream in my 50s.

[00:01:57] Living the dream of becoming a novelist is something Amy's wanted to do since she enrolled in an MFA program in her 20s. In our conversation, she discusses her circuitous route into magazine publishing that ultimately brought her back to fiction. Plus, why she believes it's important for women to take themselves on small adventures. And what she believes is the true cost of ambition. That and more is next, when Black & Published continues.

[00:02:34] All right, Amy, first question. When did you know that you were a writer? I always knew that I loved writing. Do you know what I mean? Like, writing was always my special skill. It was my special thing. But when I knew that I was a writer, that probably happened a little later, like more in my 20s. You know, when I went to grad school, you know, I got an MFA in creative writing in my 20s. And that's absolutely not necessary for being a writer, you know, but for me, it was very clarifying. And it helped me find my community.

[00:03:03] It helped me find my voice. And it helped center me in this metier. It helped me center myself in this kind of passion, in this art, in this talent. And helped me understand, you know, that I really did have a place in that world. Come on, vocabulary, metier. Yes. Teach me something on today. I think I've heard you talk about this, about getting your MFA in your 20s. Is that when you started what became If I Ruled the World?

[00:03:33] No. Okay. I have a very, no, I have a very, very sad novel that I wrote in my 20s. So when I went to grad school, you know, it was just a few years after my mother passed away. And so I was kind of writing through a lot of that. And so a lot of my writing in that period was cathartic, you know what I mean, in lots of ways. But I was, I was writing through that pain.

[00:03:57] And so the, the book that I wrote, and I did write a full novel while I was in grad school. That book, I mean, it's, I look back on it periodically and I may do something with it eventually. It's beautifully written. I mean, it's, I must say it is, it's lovely, but it is, God, it's sad. It's incredibly heavy. And I really need to be in the right state of mind to go back to that book. But if I Ruled the World, I started it in my maybe mid thirties.

[00:04:22] And then I finished it in my fifties because I put it away for a bunch of years for a bunch of reasons. You know what I mean? But that was a much, much sort of different story in terms of theme and absolutely tone. Mm-hmm. I know you have this like media mogul career, but what about writing a novel always intrigued you to want to go back to that page and write while you're living this fabulous New York media life? It's fabulous.

[00:04:52] I'm assuming it's fabulous from the post. I mean, you know, it's funny. And I was just, I was just talking about this. When you see somebody's like fabulous kind of like life, right? And there, it looks so fabulous because I recognize that my professional life was very visible, you know what I mean? And it looked, and it was fun. I mean, I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of access. I had a lot of, you know, I got to do a lot of amazing things. I met incredible humans. So that part was amazing. The flip side of that is the stress and the pressure and the hours.

[00:05:20] I mean, the hours that I worked, you know, nobody saw that. You know, everybody sort of saw me out looking cute, you know, out on the town, you know, whatever. But you didn't see that I was like, you know, eating dinner from the vending machine because I was working in the office until midnight the night before. That's the thing that you don't see. And so I guess I always thought that I was going to be a novelist. You know, when I was in grad school, that's what I thought I was going to do like for my life. I was like, okay, I'm going to write novels. And then when I was in grad school, I got an award for a short story that I wrote.

[00:05:50] And the person who presented me with the award was the then editor in chief of Essence magazine. And because I had worked, I took a sort of circuitous route into my MFA program. And I had worked in finance for a couple of years, not my spiritual journey. I'd worked in fashion, also not my spiritual journey. But I was working at a teeny little fashion magazine to pay for my life while I was in grad school. So when I graduated from the program, the EIC of Essence offered me a role as the fashion and beauty futures editor over there.

[00:06:19] And that's what started me on my journey into media for which I am incredibly honored, you know, and I love that I've been able to represent black folks like all these years. I mean, it's been amazing. But, you know, just this feeling of writing, you know what I mean, of kind of crafting sentences and crafting story and creating characters that just never left me. And even though I had this amazing career in media, I always wanted to return to this world of storytelling.

[00:06:48] And now I'm psyched to represent us in a different way now as a storyteller. And so what made you come back to that story that you started in your 30s while you're on this media journey and tell a story about that life that you live that's not about you. It is fiction. Give the disclaimer, this is not auto fiction. It's really not. It's not auto fiction. It is actual fiction. She made it all up.

[00:07:17] I really did. But what brought you back so many years later that you were like, I want to try to live this dream that I've had forever? The story never left me. And it sounds crazy to say that over all those years. But, you know, I would periodically kind of like pick it up, you know, because when I started writing it, I wrote about 100 pages in my 30s. And it was a different type of a story also. I don't say light or fair, but I just didn't really have the themes of the book nailed down.

[00:07:46] It was just I had the sort of like general plot of a story, but I didn't really understand what I was actually writing about. Right. So I kept picking up and putting it down. And then all of a sudden, you know, in 2023, as I was leaving corporate media, it just felt like a burning desire to pick it back up again. And I think that was because I had like 15 years of reflection and insight onto the story, onto the era, and onto the themes that I really want to write about.

[00:08:15] Like, that's when I was like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. This isn't just a story about a girl who wants to be editor-in-chief, right? This is a story about the cost of ambition. You know what I mean? It's a story about finding your voice. You know, it's a story about the era also. It's a story about, you know, the misogyny, the rampant kind of the sexual harassment and sexual violence. It's a story about, like, just the danger that lurked underneath all of that kind of glamour of the era.

[00:08:41] And so when I really understood what it was I wanted to explore, then I had to finish the book. I couldn't leave it alone anymore, you know? How long did it take you to write? Like, once you really buckled into it? You know, people keep asking me that. So when I first, when I, because it's a hard one, right? So I wrote 100 pages in my 30s and I remember it really, like, flowing out of me. Once I had the story, it just flowed out. Yeah, I had a full-time job, my job. I was editor-in-chief of Teen People. You know, it was the largest teen magazine in the world at that point.

[00:09:08] And I was still, like, writing on the weekends and it was flowing, you know what I mean? So that was maybe, I don't know, a few months back then. And then when I picked it back up, it was the top of 2023. And I rewrote everything that I'd written back in the day. I wrote a prologue, but that prologue that I have on my book, it didn't exist, you know? So I just really changed so many aspects of the book.

[00:09:31] And then it took me about, I would say, maybe eight months to finish, like, that next draft because I started going, you know what I mean? Like, I was really, like, you know, the energy was just sort of pulling me. And then my beta readers were like, this is great, rewrite it. So then I, but that didn't take, I mean, it took me maybe another four months. Because it went to auction at the top of 2024.

[00:09:56] So it was like a year of very serious full-time work, rewriting what I already had, kind of moving myself, moving it forward. A productive year. Right. So the book, I would say in total, was probably like a year and a half, two years. And so then once you do get it to auction, how has the publishing part of the journey been? Like the getting to do this thing that you've always wanted? How has that experience been for you? Oh my God. I mean, it changed my life. It changed my, I mean, my, first of all, my book went to auction.

[00:10:26] Like, you know what I mean? You have to understand. I mean, I know I've had this wonderful career, but this is my baby. It's my first novel that I'm putting out there in the world. You know, who knows if anybody's going to like it? You know, you just, you never know. And the fact that multiple people did like it, you know, is, was already crazy. And then when I got a two book contract from my wonderful publisher, Flatiron, which changed

[00:10:51] my life completely because a one book contract, you know, is like, it's like, great. It's like wonderful. You know, my book's going to be published. A two book contract is like, well, shit, I'm an author. You know what I mean? The feeling of like, oh, I'm an author now, you know? And I mean, that just completely changed my life. So, I mean, that news was, again, I, it's hard to even explain how just life-changing it was to have fulfilled a dream that I started in my twenties and fulfill it in my fifties.

[00:11:20] I mean, I, it's difficult to describe. And then there's the publishing process. You know, I was really fortunate. My editor, Flatiron, is amazing. She's brilliant. I mean, she really took my book to the next level in so many ways. And I'm also good at receiving, because I'm an editor by trade, right? This is for competency. You know what I mean? And so I'm like, make me better. Let's go. Like, don't, I'm, give me the notes. Make me better. So you're looking for the long edit letter.

[00:11:48] Yeah, I'm like, make me, I'm like, make me, I mean, but then of course there's the difficulty of like, actually you get the notes, you get the edit letter and you're like, oh, snap. It's like three pages long. All right. And then you just have to kind of systematically go through it, you know, and figure out like how you're going to, you know, do it. And then you got to go back again. And then you got to shorten it, which is what, you know, what I did, I, you know, trimmed and I, you know, by every sentence, every word. So that part was painstaking and difficult, but also like very rewarding, you know, because

[00:12:17] I really appreciate the editing process. The cover process was less fun, if I'm honest. That was way less fun, you know? So that was a tough one, but the editing process itself was hard, but I was excited to get better. What did the editing process in being edited at that level in this new space teach you about editing? Since that is your, as you said, core competency. It taught me, I would say a lot about story structure and character.

[00:12:46] I mean, I learned a lot of that in an MFA program, but taking it from, I'm a talented writer who has taken some classes with some talented writers to, okay, now I'm a professional writer and we're creating a product that's going to go on shelves and in the market. It's a different kind of level of intensity and it's a different level of focus. You know what I mean? So I think for me, get kind of like really digging into the structure in a different kind of a way that a reader facing way was very different.

[00:13:15] And then really thinking through the characters and making sure that they all had motivations that made sense, I think was also important. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. And I also want to ask the inverse of the same question. So then what did your years of work and success as an editor teach you about writing and crafting a novel? You know, one of the things that I, when I was in media, I was very intentional around

[00:13:40] was pushing the boundaries of, and the parameters of what we consider is like authentically black. I really, I think there's something inherently limiting for black folks when we start to judge too much what is authentically black. When we start to say, well, black people don't do this and black people don't talk like that, or you don't sound black or you, that's, you know what I mean? Like to me, that's just limiting us. And I don't like that. So one of the things I wanted to do, you know, with my protagonist was push the boundaries

[00:14:07] of what is considered to be traditionally and authentically black, right? So there's that. And then there's also the tone. I ran a lot of brands that had varied content, right? Everything from fashion and beauty to health, to travel, to social issues, to politics, to sports. So I'm a generalist as a journalist. And one of the things I learned is that you can't just throw facts and figures and information at people. If you want them to resonate as a social issue or a political story to resonate, you can't

[00:14:36] just throw the information at them. You have to wrap it in narrative. You have to wrap it in something that's compelling. You have to create an interesting context and empathy so that people really care about this thing. And so that's like a particular story. But then when you're creating an entire entity, you know, you have to kind of add some kind of sugar with the medicine. You know what I mean? Like what's the fun thing that you're putting in there that makes this package, this magazine, this site, this project, whatever it is appealing so that you can also weave in these important issues, right?

[00:15:04] And so when I was writing, If I Ruled the World, I was very intentional with the tone. I wanted to write a page turner. You know, I wanted to write something that had commercial elements to it. You know, I very intentionally didn't sort of write a heavy literary work. You know, I very intentionally created something that had humor, that was fast paced because I wanted to explore these issues, these deeper themes in a way that was going to be kind of

[00:15:32] compelling to a broader audience. I really want to write like something that was smart and funny, but also thought provoking, but like fast. You know what I mean? So again, like that kind of came from my years of working in magazines and wanting to create something that would resonate with many people. And also that's kind of my tone too, you know? I mean, you know, talking to me for a while, you know, I kind of ricochet between inappropriate

[00:16:00] humor and, and like life lessons. I mean, that's sort of how I get down. So I think perhaps that might also be me. It is you, it's your authentic author voice. Talking about the authenticity of black stories. How did you keep the authenticity of your story intact going through the publishing industry? Were you ever concerned that an editor or the industry would try to change or soften or fuck with basically the tone that you were? Yeah.

[00:16:30] Oh, hell yeah. Okay. Excellent. Oh, well shit. All right, let's go. Wait a minute. I was trying to keep it pagey. My favorite part of any podcast when people ask if they can curse and not say yes. And the stories get so much better. First of all, no, the fuck I was not because I know how the fuck to talk to people and I know how to talk to these white folks, right? So if we're going to keep it a buck, right?

[00:17:00] I mean, under zero circumstances, was I going to allow the authenticity of my story to be diluted by anybody. And it's interesting because my editor is white. When I went into this book process, I was like, my team is going to be black. Everybody's going to be black. And I was, that did not happen. I tried my level best. And I was like, my agent is going to be black. My editor is going to be black. My imprint is going to be black. Like everybody's, you know, no, no, nobody's black. Even though I tried.

[00:17:29] But, you know, part of the reason why I went with Flatiron that I love is because my editor, even though she is a white woman, organically understood my voice and the story and appreciated the authenticity and never gave me indication that she was going to fuck with the story and never did. Right. I mean, she never, at least in terms of the way in which I was representing black folks and the era and hip hop in the community, she never, ever, ever did not once.

[00:17:54] And so I've been extremely grateful to have had that kind of an advocate around my story itself. It was a slightly different story with the cover that was from racial elements there, but the story itself, I never had a concern actually. Was the title always, If I Ruled the World? It was not. Ooh. It was not. It was not, girl. That's a good story. So the title was Sugar. Mm. For years when I started the book, it was Sugar.

[00:18:21] And Sugar is the name of the magazine that my protagonist eventually goes and edits. And I really liked it because A, it's obviously something in the book, but B, I thought it was kind of a dog whistle to black folks, you know, to black women. Like, you know, we call each other Sugar. Like it just, you know, there was something in it that felt black to me. Mm-hmm. But then as I was going through the editing process with my editor at Flatiron, she at some point was gently like, hey, so, you know, do you think maybe you want to kind of

[00:18:49] come up with a title that relates more to the themes of the book? And I was like, no, no, I don't. Actually, you know, I was like, actually, no, don't think you, no, I do not. I would like it to be Sugar. That is the title of the book. It's called Sugar. It's been Sugar for 20 years, lady. You just, that's what it is. And she kind of like gently, you know, she's, she's really smart. And she's, and she's so, she gently was like, she came at it this way. And then she came at it like that way. And then she, you know what I mean? And finally, I was like, all right, all right, all right. Let me, let me have a think, right?

[00:19:18] This was over the winter holiday. And I was like, let me have a think. And I started thinking about like, what would make sense? And so I started, it's funny. I used to do this thing at Honey Magazine, which was my first editor-in-chief job, where we would comb music lyrics for some of the cover lines. And also for sometimes the lines on the spine of the magazine, we would use the lyric or something. And I was like, what if I could find a lyric or a song title? You know, that would make sense. And so I started thinking about like iconic artists from the late 1990s.

[00:19:48] And eventually I was like, okay, if I roll the world, you just kind of rose to the top in part because it's such an iconic song of that era, right? And Nas is such a respected and iconic artist. The title itself relates to the journey that my protagonist is on. The vibe of the song, and it's nothing to do with my book at all, or any themes in my book, but it's a kind of a good vibe song in general. And also there's an, if you know, you know moment, because Lauren Hill is obviously featured on the song and who we all love, right?

[00:20:15] And Lauren was the very, very first cover of Honey Magazine, which again was my first episode of the movie. And so there's a sort of a kind of a full circle moment there. So I'm just so grateful that my editor pushed me to change the title of the book, because If I Ruled the World is perfect. It's just, I love it so much now. I'm in love with the title of my book, and I never would have changed it if she hadn't pushed me. So I'm going to say that as a great moment to have you read something from If I Ruled the World so that we can get into the content of the book.

[00:20:45] If I Ruled the World by Amy DuBois Barnett tells the story of Nikki Rose, a young woman in late 90s New York whose goal in life is to be the editor-in-chief of a magazine. A scandal at the start of her career forces her to work hard and keep her head down. But once she gets her shot as an EIC, she is forced to match her passion with her work ethic without letting some questionable life choices, both past and present, derail her future.

[00:21:15] Here's Amy. So I'm going to read a couple minutes of the prologue, because the book starts with a bang. No pun intended. Prologue! New York City, Spring 1996. I was a live for the moment 20-something like every other 20-something I knew, until one rainy Friday night in the Krispy Kreme on 23rd Street in Manhattan.

[00:21:42] I was licking raspberry jelly from the fingers of a very rich, very fine, and very married man when I looked up to see my parents, shaking rain off their huge umbrella and laughing. I might have been able to salvage the situation if my date, his trademark salt and pepper locks unmistakable from any angle, had been a stranger to my parents. No such luck. He was my mother's childhood friend from suburban Chicago. The bond they'd formed as the straight chocolate chips

[00:22:11] in their high school's huge snickerdoodle had lasted decades, with mom even toasting the brides at both his first and second weddings. Dad spoke first, an uncharacteristic curse word exploding from his mouth. What the fuck is this, Al? My date, Alonzo Griffin. Husband, father, and until that moment, oblivious finger sucky, had his back to the door. But he whipped around at the sound of my dad's voice. Jesus, what are you two doing here? He asked, a slight tremor in his voice,

[00:22:40] betraying his, belying his express on his face. Getting a donut, I think, I whispered, shocked into stupidity. Yeah, no shit, Nikki, Alonzo said. He looked at mom and implored, and please. Hearing her name thawed my frozen mother, who strode over to our table and poked a finger in Alonzo's chest. In a furious tone, she said, how could you, Al? This is my daughter. Alonzo wins, but clearly thought the better of rebutting my enraged mom. Annie, he spoke in a low tone. My mother's name, both a question and a warning.

[00:23:09] Don't call me that, she snapped. Then she turned to me. And you, what were you thinking? Tell me, please, what were you thinking? I had no response, because honestly, I hadn't been thinking at all. Unless having a torrid affair with my married boss, who was almost twice my age, and just happened to grow up with my mother, was evidence of deep consideration. The situation was made worse by the fact that six months prior, mom had called Alonzo, the publisher of Revolutions,

[00:23:35] a venerable music magazine owned by the even more venerable Park Avenue Publishing, to ask him for help with her wayward daughter. Black books rarely make it to the top, so you'll likely get stuck near the bottom, where the salaries were dreadful. And most magazines are asinine anyway, she'd wailed when I first brought up my dream of being an editor-in-chief. After I graduated from college, my English professor mom had begged me to find a job in a respectable and secure field.

[00:24:02] And in her mind, journalism, even as an EIC, did not qualify. But after watching me quit a job in finance, drop out of law school, then waitress, while trying to get someone to pay me for my words, I think she began to fear I'd never move out of their Harlem brownstone. What mom and dad didn't know was that during my interview process, Alonzo and I had gone out for drinks. One thing led to another, and I'd found myself in a discreet midtown hotel,

[00:24:28] watching my mom's old pal unlace his Ferragamo shoes, peel off his Armani suit, and unbutton his Valentino shirt. I'd made love to a few boyfriends by then, but this was something different. Alonzo Griffin had pulled my hair and grabbed my throat and bent me over every piece of furniture in his hotel room, all while whispering that he was going to enjoy taking care of his good little bitch. As we were getting dressed afterward, Alonzo had tilted my head up to look into my eyes.

[00:24:56] Baby girl, keep this up and you'll be the editor-in-chief in no time, he'd said with a smirk. But next time I see you, daddy wants you to have a Brazilian wax. It looks like you sat on a fucking chia pet. Thank you. So spicy. Spicy. I had a conversation with the author the other day, yesterday, about the environment that our books are sold in

[00:25:21] is not always the same environment, sociopolitically speaking, that our books are released in. Your book is speaking to this moment that we are in, in the upside down, with all the foolishness of the Epstein files and that man in the White House, and the thing that happened to that menace who's now in prison that he did to all them girls and women. Yes.

[00:25:48] And you're writing about that era, specifically of when Diddy ruled New York, because we can say the name, he's been convicted. And so how does it feel to be having such a timely conversation about an industry that you love and you grew up in and that you came of womanhood in, as your character is doing in the novel? You know, I have to tell you, when I was writing this book, I had no idea when it was coming out, it was going to be so timely.

[00:26:17] I mean, I started this book in my 30s. I finished it 15, 20 years later, whatever. And, you know, the traditional book publishing process, I mean, it was sold in 2024. It was released in 2026. I did not know that it was going to be as timely as it was. I had no idea that the quote unquote reckoning happening in the music industry was going to sort of come to a head, you know, at the time that my book was coming out. And now it's true.

[00:26:43] It is exploring topics that feel very urgent, you know, that are in the zeitgeist in a way that is making my conversation, my book's conversation with culture that much more relevant, you know. So I've had a lot of conversations about if I ruled the world that are, you know, part about the book and the process and being an author and the story and the characters and are in part about the culture and, you know, our political environment,

[00:27:10] you know, and the sort of players in the music industry who exhibited some of the most egregious misogyny and sexual violence. And that has been unexpected, but frankly, welcome, because those were the issues that I didn't want to explore. You said earlier that this book is in part about the cost of ambition. That is a subject that I am endlessly interested about, especially as a Black woman. What do you think is the cost of ambition, period? And you can put it in context of your novel as well.

[00:27:39] You know, my answer on this has changed over the years. And maybe, you know, coming at it from a 56-year-old perspective, somebody who's been in this thing for a long time, I would say the cost of ambition is peace. It's peace, you know. And I say this as an ambitious woman. I'm still ambitious. I'm very ambitious, you know. But it is not a peaceful life, you know. I look at folks who have been in the same industry for their entire career, who have lived in the same place, who have married the same person. Let's keep it real.

[00:28:09] You know, and there is something in that that seems at least like there's so much peace to it, right? There's like a level of stability. There's a level of consistency. You know, I admire it. I'm a little jealous of, you know. It just feels like it's a different kind of a life, you know, where you can leave your work behind when you get home at night. You know what I mean? When you can make a dinner every night, you know what I mean? And you can make meat and vegetables and a carbohydrate. You know what I'm saying?

[00:28:39] Yeah. You know? Put it on the table at seven. I mean, that, you know, that is a world that I do not know. But I've never known it, actually, because I was raised in a very ambitious household. You know, my mom, when she passed away, was the president of the University of Houston. And she was the first Black woman to run a major research university in the country. And so I grew up watching her work. And I just understand that part of what you give up with that level of ambition, especially as a woman, right?

[00:29:06] When we still have a disproportionate amount of our household duties, no matter how successful we are. I mean, that's just, that's just statistically true, right? You give up that kind of stability in your soul and you replace it with excitement. You replace it with fulfillment. You replace it with adventure. You know, you replace it with bravery. You know, you replace it with a lot of different things that I value, but it is a legitimate trade-off.

[00:29:32] And so in the novel, we see Nikki, we see her ambition and we see how it grows over the course of the novel. What is it costing her? Or is it costing her anything? I think for Nikki, I mean, she, you know, we follow her on a journey. I mean, my protagonist, my God, she makes mistakes, you know? Woo! Lord. And so many people have been like, Nikki really got on my nerves. She made so many mistakes. I'm like, I know. She got on my nerves too. I was writing it. That's the point. I was like, don't do it, sis. Don't do it, Nikki.

[00:30:01] God, don't do it. But I mean, but you root for her. You root for her because she is purpose-driven and she is so good at her job, but you're also watching her on this journey where her ambition is at various times costing her friendships. You know, it's costing her romantic relationships. It's costing her clarity around her moral compass. She's really invested in trying to make Sugar Magazine where she becomes editor-in-chief a success.

[00:30:31] And in doing so, you know, she gets pulled into a world that rocks her sense of self, you know, that kind of, you know, rocks the way in which she makes decisions that kind of forces her to put so many things that she values in jeopardy. And it's only when she becomes more clear about herself and her boundaries and when she becomes more empowered and when she finds her voice that things fall in place for her.

[00:30:55] She makes a couple of work decisions in the novel that really kind of ground some of the cultural conversations, specifically about a rapper in the novel who is accused of assault and deciding to tell the accuser side of the story, the victim side of the story as well. And I think this is what you're referring to when we were texting back and forth when I was, as I was reading the novel. But is that a decision as when you were in, as an editor that you would have made a story that you would have run or like-

[00:31:25] Under zero circumstances. Under zero circumstances in this life would I have ever put that rapper on any cover I ever, of every, any magazine I was ever editor-in-chief of which I was editor-in-chief. I never would have made that decision. I would have done anything else. I would have come up with any other solve. I would have done any, I never would have put him on a cover. I just, I wouldn't have done it, but I wanted to show my protagonist backed up against a wall, right?

[00:31:53] I wanted to show the cracks in her character and her naivete at that moment, because when she does make that decision, it's not entirely flawed. I mean, you know, she is looking for a solve to generate sales for this magazine that's in trouble and she's been charged with saving. She comes across this deeply problematic rapper, but then decides to investigate the story and make sure that this alternative perspective is in there and is very visible. And that's not something that you would typically do.

[00:32:23] Normally the cover story would be enough, fluff story, but you're putting somebody on cover because it's somebody that typically your readers admire. But she was aware of the controversy surrounding, swirling around this person and wanted to make sure that her readers saw both sides of the story. So I wanted to show that these decisions are not always black and white. They're not always easy. For me, I would have gone a different direction. I might have sacrificed newsstand sales.

[00:32:49] I might have sacrificed other things that she didn't feel that she could sacrifice at that particular moment in her career. What I enjoyed about the scenes in the novel is because it felt so real. As you said earlier, we've been having this reckoning in the music industry. And I think of the story that Danielle Smith has told, former editor-in-chief of Vibe. And she has a story in her book, Shine Bright. It's not quite a memoir, but it's kind of a memoir.

[00:33:15] And she's told it in different documentaries as well about when she put Diddy on the cover and the blowback that happened that led to an incident between he and her. And thinking about everything that's happened now with the Diddy case and then reading about this fictionalized rapper and seeing Nicki, like the worlds are so intertwined that it's almost hard to remember that journalism is the fourth estate, right? It's supposed to be the fourth.

[00:33:43] It's supposed to be the fourth estate and the fourth branch that is supposed to hold power in check and accountable, even though with the consolidation of all these different conglomerates and media industries, that is not happening. But it's happening in the novel, for lack of a better metaphor or whatever. And so I enjoy seeing that depiction in the decision-making process of it because, again, it felt so timely to the moment. And I don't think that's happening anymore in the industry.

[00:34:11] And so I feel like novels and books are the last places where you can tell the truth. Did you find that cathartic in your process of writing if I ruled the world? Oh, that's so interesting. I can't say that I did, if I'm honest, because I wasn't writing in a time when media was so violently under attack, right? You know, like media is absolutely besieged right now. Black media is triple besieged.

[00:34:38] Black women are quadruple, you know, many ex besieged, right? And out of work. And out of work, right? So when I was writing the book, it was cathartic, not necessarily from a media and journalism perspective, but it was, I guess, cathartic in that I was able to tell the story of this era from the perspective of a young, ambitious woman and what it felt like to navigate those

[00:35:06] levels of misogyny when you didn't have the skills, the tools, the language to really do so when there was no recourse, who were you going to go to? HR? You know what I mean? Like, who are you going to tell? You know what I mean? Like there was nobody to tell. And the book is ultimately a love letter to a lot of different things. You know, it's a love letter to New York City, to music, to hip hop, you know, with which with I have a problematic kind of love hate relationship, but I ultimately very much

[00:35:33] love hip hop, you know, and also to like so many of the women who from that era, you know, late 1990s, early 2000s in particular, who didn't make it out as unscathed as I did. You know, I was very, very fortunate. You know, I came out of that era stronger. I came out of it with molten steel kind of running down my spine. Like I'm unshockable. I can talk to anybody at any point. It's very difficult to scare me.

[00:36:01] But I know a lot of people who got, you know, rocked by that era in many different ways. You know, they got strung down on drugs. They had a whole lot of babies by a whole lot of people. They disappeared, you know, into mental illness anguish. You know, my friend Erica Kennedy, you know, ended up losing her life. You know, the author of Bling. I don't want to speculate, you know, why, you know, I don't think that's cool.

[00:36:27] But I mean, she is one of the people to whom this book is unofficially dedicated. I remember when I'm reading about your book, I was like, it reminds me of Erica Kennedy's Bling. Right, exactly. She wrote about the era very much closer to the era when she was much more enmeshed in it. And she was in it in a different kind of a way. Like she had more, I think, like real deep friendships with more boldface names from the era, right? You know, whereas I was always, I had a good time in the era. Do not get me wrong.

[00:36:56] I was dancing on tables, two hands in the air. I mean, I did, you know, some of the stuff I wrote about in the book. Nikki was definitely on top of the tables, baby. I know what that looks like and feels like being there myself. Perhaps not undulating in front of rappers. But I'm not particularly on top of the tables. Perhaps not that. But I definitely, I know of what I, you know, I know of what I speak of. But it was just a very dangerous, you know, kind of era. Yeah. So then to, I'm about to put you back in big sis role.

[00:37:24] To every person, woman specifically though, who is ambitious and coming into themselves, coming of womanhood. I like that phrase. I'm going to keep using it. I just feel like that's a whole genre of books now. Mm-hmm. But what do you have to say about what it takes to rule, not necessarily the world, but in your life and maintain and get out hope?

[00:37:47] You know, the first thing I would say, and this is something that I live by, you know, it's, it is a huge sort of philosophical tenet of my life. Fear is growth. You know, I really strongly believe that the way our evolution happens outside of our comfort zone, you know, it's very difficult, I think, personally, to become everything that you are meant to be. To really kind of live the fullness of your life if you never, ever step outside of your comfort zone.

[00:38:17] If you never make yourself uncomfortable, you know. So to me, the first step is always, how do I make myself a little bit uncomfortable? How do I dip a toe outside of the thing that I know in order to explore the unknown? You know, and it can be as simple as driving to the town next door because you've never seen it, right? Like it can be as simple as an adventure, a small adventure. You know, I believe in little adventures. Like, let me, I want to see something new in my eyes, you know. I mean, it can be as small as it's kind of starting there, you know.

[00:38:44] And then that kind of yields a psychology that allows you to continue to step out and to understand that when you feel that fear, you know, when you feel that discomfort, it's really a sign of you evolving and growing. And becoming a more kind of interesting person with a broader perspective. I really kind of believe that into my soul. I also believe in relationships. By the time you need, quote unquote, need a relationship, it is too late to make one.

[00:39:13] It is too late to make a relationship by the time you need it. And some of the folks that I call for various things are people that I've known for 20 years and that I was nice to. That's the other thing too. I mean, you should just be a nice person in general. Like just don't be an asshole, right? Just, just have a... Online and in real life. You know what I'm saying?

[00:39:33] I don't think I should have to tell people that, you know, but if, if being, you know, nice is not your natural get down, then do it strategically because you never know where people are going to end up. You know what I'm saying? Like some of the folks that I know were the assistants that I was nice to. I was just cool with. Not even nice to. It seems that doesn't even sound right. That I was just cool with. Like back in the day when I was editor-in-chief and their assistants and we were just cool. And I would like sneak them into our parties and, you know what I mean? And that kind of stuff. Just, just be cool.

[00:40:00] You know, they're now like EVPs or presidents of like companies and you never know where that person that you meet, what it's going to yield. You know, sometimes I've met people in a room and they'll call me a week later, a month later, years later and be like, hey, I was thinking about you because, you know, I had this opportunity, whatever it is, you know? And you really honestly don't know, you know?

[00:40:23] So, I mean, it's building relationships with people, you know, based on mutual respect, based on mutual kindness, you know, based on mutual kind of like, what can you do for each other? Not just what you can do for me or what I can do for you, but like, what can you do for each other? And you maintain that relationship. And, you know, and then you have that because that's just, that's wealth. You know what I mean?

[00:40:43] So, as you're out there kind of exploring and making yourself uncomfortable and trying to figure out how you're going to evolve into your next best self, you have this wonderful network of people with whom you've built relationships who are going to hold you down, you know? That's what's up. All right. I want to switch to a speed round and a game before I let you go for the rest of your morning. What is your favorite book? Cormac McCarthy, All the Pretty Horses. Okay. Who was your favorite author? Taylor Jenkins Reid. Ooh. What is your favorite song? Ooh. Blow the whistle.

[00:41:14] I mean, that's the song. Oh, Lord. I love that. It's the only song where every time it comes on, I don't care where I am, I never, ever, ever get sick of it. Every time it comes on, I'm like, what's my favorite word? Yes. How you got to say it like short? Yeah. I love that for you. What's your favorite artist? Any medium? Ooh. I'm going to go with Rhonda Brown. She is a visual artist based out of Ohio.

[00:41:44] She's the daughter of Malcolm Brown, who is the grandfather of my son. Malcolm Brown was an acclaimed watercolorist. And they had a gallery, Malcolm and Ernestine Brown, my son's grandparents. It was the first Black-owned for-profit gallery, I think, in the country, and certainly the first Black-owned gallery in Ohio. And now Rhonda is a brilliant artist herself, and she's reopening the Malcolm Brown gallery in Ohio. And I just love that for her, and I love her work. And I actually have some prints of hers.

[00:42:10] What do you think is the best book-to-movie or book-to-series adaptation? Ooh. I'm going to go with my writer crush, Daisy Jones and the Six. Okay. If money were no object, where would you go, what would you do, and where would you live? I would live in Paris. I would have houses in Paris and Los Angeles and a pied-a-terre in New York, but I would live in France. Name three things on your bucket list. Let's see.

[00:42:34] Getting my book made into a TV show that has been on my vision board, and that is a bucket list item for me. I have a development deal, so I'm speaking into existence. I'm speaking into existence. I want to take a yacht around the White Islands in Greece. Yes. And bucket list. I want to take my son to Japan. I love that. What brings you joy? Ooh.

[00:42:59] My boys, you know, my fiance, my son, and also being fulfilled, right? I mean, which is obvious. That is, you know, what a part of joy. But being fulfilled is different than joy because being fulfilled is like the realization, to my mind at least. It's the realization of difficult things that you have made happen.

[00:43:19] And the joy that comes after you have made these things go of your own kind of like creativity and hard work and strategy and, you know, kind of good energy, you know. And when you make things happen for yourself because of that, when I make things happen for myself because I have all these things and my bravery, I love my bravery. It's my favorite thing about myself. That is deep fulfillment. And that is, for me, it's like the purest joy, honestly. Hmm. And what brings you peace? Fulfillment.

[00:43:51] All right. Our game is called Rewriting the Classics. Classic is however you define it. Name one book you wish you would have written. Oh, gosh. I have a massive question on Philippa Gregory. And I wish I'd written Anna Boleyn. I've never written historical fiction. And the idea, or like Memoirs of a Geisha, you know what I mean? Like the idea that you can embody the character that well in the book. Yes.

[00:44:21] And the era. Philippa Gregory was the only one. Yes, I understand. You know what I'm saying? I really love her writing so much. And I love her skill. Like, because, you know, sometimes when you read historical fiction, it feels a little clunky, like too intentional. Like somebody is like really trying to put you in the era. You know what I mean? But I love these writers for whom it's just organic. You know, like you're just in it. Like the characters are in it. You're in it. And it doesn't feel like you're writing historical fiction.

[00:44:50] It feels like you're having this immersive reading experience where you're in an era, in addition to being in a character's journey. You know what I mean? I get that. Name a book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it? Ooh, that's a really tough one. Because I feel like I almost, I kind of don't want to name a book because there are things that are coming to mind. But if I'm saying I want to change the ending, it indicates that I wasn't particularly satisfied with the ending. And I'm not messy like that.

[00:45:19] I don't want to be like, yeah, I didn't like your ending. If I wrote the book, I would have, you know, I would have killed her off. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I get that. Okay. My next question is a messy question. And I'm going to say that you can do dead people, namely dead white men. But name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught and why? Oh, God. I hate to, I'm sorry, dude. I feel like this book is just overtaught. I don't want to say overrated, but really overtaught. It's The Great Gatsby. That book has been named several times on Black & Publish.

[00:45:49] It's just so overtaught. I mean, and I respect it. I respect the themes of the book. I respect the sort of immersion in the era, although he was writing in the era. But I don't know that The Great Gatsby needs to be required reading for everyone all the time. I feel you. So my final question for you today, when you are dead and gone among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of work and words that you left behind?

[00:46:15] I really hope that people write about the way in which I represented the Black community, that I represented Black women, you know, that I hopefully inspired our community, informed our community, entertained our community. I mean, I just, I really hope that people kind of see those, the intentionality behind those contributions.

[00:46:38] But I would say probably most importantly, I hope that I have brought a lot of other folks with me. You know, I mean, my ultimate legacy is the people that I brought with me, the people whose careers I've impacted, whose lives I've impacted. I mean, that is for me ultimately the most important thing. But from a broad legacy perspective, from what people will probably write about, I think it's probably, hopefully, my contributions to our culture.

[00:47:06] Big thank you to Amy DuBois Barnett for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Amy on Instagram and threads at Amy DuBois Barnett. And make sure you check out If I Rule the World. It's out now from Flatiron Books. You can get a copy of the novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week.

[00:47:33] If you like this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page or our YouTube page. It's at Black & Published and that's B-L-K-A-N-D-Published. There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Amy about the tricky cover design process and how she ended up with a cover she loved. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:47:58] I'll highlight y'all next week when our guest will be Ashton Lattimore, author of the historical fiction novel Runner. The reason why the vineyard was what it was was because there were so many people there who were fishermen, who had been whalers. There are just a bunch of people there who have boats and it's very easy for them to get out on the water. So the way it kind of worked in my head was, well, like, wait a minute. If I know there were Black fishermen here and there are all these Black communities here, I know they had the boats. I know they were here.

[00:48:26] So why would they be the only ones who were not participating in this smuggling activity? That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[00:48:54] We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black books matter.