Chicago vs. Everybody with Arionne Nettles

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Black American culture runs so much, right? When we look at like music and fashion and all

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of these things. And so much of that started here in Chicago and we just don't always get

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that credit that other cities might get.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published. Brick a you

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: guest is Arionne Nettles. Off of the book, we are the culture. Black Chicago's influence

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: on everything. The book is as much a love letter to our city as it is putting the world on

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_02]: notice that Chicago is the epicenter for all things culture and cool with receipts.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I was talking a lot about Black stories and so to tell these stories we have to deal

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: with a lot of adversity. And maybe that is not my goal, like not saying I can't mention

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: those challenges but maybe I don't want to give those challenges that much room to breathe.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe what I want the balance to be is that I'm putting more balance on the triumphs.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: From Johnson Publishing Company and Softsheen and Dudley's haircare products to the legacy

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of the Chicago Defender and today's emphasis on drill music in the hip hop scene, Arionne

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: covers it all. Why she says writing this book was really about asking questions people

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: have been waiting to answer all their lives. Plus how she balance Chicago's media reputation

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: with the reality of the home she knows and loves. And the story she had to leave on

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the cutting room floor. Take a tour of the second city through Arionne's eyes

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to jump and get it all into it. So my first question for you today, when

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: did you know that you were a writer? I think I knew that I was a writer when I was at

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: elementary school because I don't think that I ever thought that I would write a book

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: but I used to write like poetry and stuff like that. You know, in Chicago how we have

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: like those young author contests and stuff like that. I always thought that was so fun

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and cool. And so I always felt like well, I can write right but it always felt like

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: something fun. I never really thought of it as a professional job though. So I think

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I always did see myself as a writer but not like a professional writer when I think about it.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So for listeners who don't know me and Arionne go back to middle school like 7th grade at

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: work apart. So I know a little bit more than maybe most. And so writing wasn't what you

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: pursued at first. No, no, not at all. I was a business school for college and I just was

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: like okay well what do I want to do? And I didn't really know but I was like okay well I knew that

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to not be able to take care of myself. And so for that I figured okay well money

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: right like we learned really early on especially if you didn't grow up like super wealthy

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: right that you go to college in order to be able to get a good job and take care yourself.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So I figured okay well if I do business then I'll know how to make money. I'll be well off

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: like I'll be able to take care of myself. I won't have to be like a burden or I won't

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: be like stressed out. I mean I'm still stressed out about money but I didn't think that I

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: would you know I thought it would be a good pathway to be able to take good care

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: of myself and I think that was why I chose it. I didn't really have a passion for anything

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that I saw and I was just kind of like well I don't really know what I want to be and so it

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: was kind of scary because you know how people would be like I want to do this I want to be a doctor

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be a lawyer like I didn't really have any of those ideas going into college so I just

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: chose something that felt practical. I remember you doing business and then you're doing a lot

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: of different things and but I remember you made the switch to journalism and went to Northwestern

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: your your masters in journalism what was that transition like and what did that do for you in

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: terms of re-exploring who you were as a child and being a writer? Yeah you know I really

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: love that question because I think I was so much older at that point so I had been writing before

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I went back to school so I kind of knew where my weak points were and where like you know

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like okay I don't really know journalism structure I don't really know certain things people

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: would say oh you have like a natural thing for writing but I don't really know the difference

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: between writing and journalism writing right because I've never been taught those things

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and you can be a really strong academic writer and not necessarily be great in journalism

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think it really taught me even when I'm not doing journalism specifically like journalism

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: writing to really know how to tease out the important parts of a story like what's most

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: important how can I highlight those things how to write concisely how not to waste time

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: on details that don't matter and so when you see me add details it's because they're important

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: so it just taught me a lot of that like I don't I don't waste words I don't waste space

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's all because of journalism training for sure. Come on with the tactics okay

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so then having that training and then also having the natural gift of storytelling

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: why was telling the stories of black Chicago specifically always something that you were

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: drawn to because this is the work that you started doing on the radio. Yeah yeah and so

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that was because a lot of times it felt like it would just be

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: unknown and left out in a way that it shouldn't be so many of these black stories are the backbone

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: of what makes Chicago Chicago and then I would realize that oh these stories are not just what

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: makes Chicago Chicago they are what make certain industries what they are and so

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I realized like oh not only do some of us not know these stories but people around the country

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes around the world need to know these stories too right because there's this great

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: influence right we know black American culture runs so much right when we look at like music

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and fashion and all of these things and so much of that started here in Chicago and

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: we just don't always get that credit that other cities might get. So then this being a passion

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: project and something that you were doing on the radio at WBEZ and telling these stories when did

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know that that wasn't enough and that it needed to be a book? I decided that I did

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: want to try to write a book I think because I started working in academia and when you start

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: working at academia everybody's asking you well what's your book going to be you know what is

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: what's your scholarship because even though as journalists we publish all this time like that's

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: not seen as scholarship it has to be like a book or it has to be a peer-reviewed journal

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like these are the things that are viewed as like career making things so mentors will ask you

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: what are you working on in a way to help you and one thing that I always wanted to do was I didn't

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily want my first book especially to be something that I was disconnected from I wanted

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it to be something that yes I study it and I'm a scholar of it but I'm also a part of it like

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted it to be something that I am familiar with I'm not an outsider and so thinking through that

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like it just felt like the best fit something that I was very familiar with like not just as a

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: black Chicagoan but also as a reporter and a journalist. So once you had the idea and

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: were ready to like really put it down what was your publication process like? Okay so once I had

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the idea I had a draft my first draft was really bad I kind of was all over the place I didn't really

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: know what I was doing I think I also underestimated it I kept thinking well I'm a journalist I know how

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to write articles right if every chapter is like an article and I have to write how many of these

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: okay fine whatever I can do that um and I just got really overwhelmed but I had a really great

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: editor she gave me fantastic edits she helped me kind of just rethink some things and it's also

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: hard because like as a journalist you don't always have the exact same tone with every

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: article you write but in a book you do need the exact same tone so that it feels the same

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and so some days when I was writing something I would sound one way and then maybe sometimes

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't so it was also just trying to like spread it out and even it out I could also tell

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was writing something I was tired versus when I was really excited about something so there

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: were just some real differences in the whole book being the same and having an editor that you trust

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that can really get you is just really important so we did that I worked on edits and then

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we did like another round of really big edits too and then there was just so many rounds of

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: copy edits I can't even remember because it was copy edits and then like you know a round that was

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: just looking at like line breaks and there's just so many edits but I think those first couple

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: big edits are the ones that I remember as being just really helping me figure it out and

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: make it feel like a book instead of just a bunch of pieces of things you know making it feel like

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it's one cohesive piece. I've never heard someone say that their tone changes depending on whether

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you know they're tired or not can you talk about what that looked like for you in this book like

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: how your own mood affected your writing? Yeah yeah so let's say there was like a topic that I knew

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: a whole lot about and I was excited right it might be a little bit longer it might have even a little

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: bit more detail you can kind of tell in my writing that I'm really excited about this and then let's

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: say I get to another topic and maybe I mean I chose the topic so it's not like they are

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: topics that I didn't want to write about but like maybe I'm tired this week I'm like really tired

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not adding as much detail it feels like I'm just going through the motions

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and so my editor is like well what about this what about this you didn't really say or sometimes

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: especially because I was talking a lot about black stories and so to tell these stories we have

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to deal with a lot of adversity and so there would be certain sections and she's like you sound

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: really angry here and she's like I'm not saying that you can't be angry but I think

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that what you're saying in this book is that you are celebrating that black people did these great

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: things despite uh those challenges I'm like yeah yeah no that is my tone that's that's what I'm

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to do and she's like okay well you might want to revisit this part because you sound real

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: mad you know and so uh and it could be I didn't have a long day and I'm like and then they did so

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and so right I'm pissed off I'm like I'm like going into like investigative journalism I'm like

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: you know laying out the facts and so um and maybe that is not my goal like not saying I can't

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: mention those challenges but maybe I don't want to give those challenges that much room to breathe

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: like maybe what I want the balance to be is that I'm putting more balance on the triumph

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of it and so that part was just so much harder than I didn't really I just really didn't really think

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: about that. I love that not giving the challenges a room to breathe because the book is joyful and

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it sounds like you and I don't know if I've ever seen you angry but I know that we've gone

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: years without seeing each other but it's like I like just from knowing you from school it's

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: like I don't ever remember you without a smile or without having that joy and so that really comes

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: through in the writing and that your editor could pick up on that and notice that these sections

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that are more challenging read as such and don't have that joy that I think that you would be known

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: for it's like a really key edit because it sounds like you. Yeah yeah and I don't know if as an

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: editor if I would have picked that up you know like because as a journalism editor I'm just picking

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: up like are these facts true but she was like yeah you just sound real angry and I don't think that

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what you want this book to be. So then knowing that this book wasn't going to count

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: for a tenure track but was still going to be a notch for you as both a journalist but also as

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: academic and pursuing that career wise what does it mean to have it out? The thing is that

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that might have been the first reason why I wanted to do a book but now it just really

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't matter like the career part doesn't really matter like I think if anything I feel

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: really grateful that I think it's opened me up to so many more conversations with people

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: like I have met so many people who have said hey I see what you're interested in like we have this

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: organization and we're doing XYZ or would you be open to working with us to do whatever whatever.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I've thought a lot about this in my past year was like oh man like I love this place what

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: do I want my community work to look like you know like what organizations do I want to be

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: a part of and like I want to be more involved in certain ways and so people have like found me

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: through the book and so yes the original thought to do a book was like I want to do a book

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to establish myself as an expert on something but since then I think I've just

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: really been like as long as my community likes it like I kind of don't care like people

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: been like hey are you going to do like a tour and I'm like there's no need to do a tour because

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care what people outside of Chicago think about the book like not that I am grateful when

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: people outside of Chicago read it and find connection I think that that's beautiful and

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I say that because like I read books about stuff like let's for example I can read a book about

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Southern hip hop and love it I can read a book about New York hip hop and love it right

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not from either of those places so yes I think that we can connect and find joy in other

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: stories but if people are like I'm not really interested in seeing how like Chicago influenced

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff I'm okay with that because people here are interested right and so that has just meant so much

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to me like the love and support I've gotten here it's really been like a door opener

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for more connection it sounds like the book was freeing for you yeah it really was and I didn't

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: expect that that's what's up so can you read something from we are the culture so that we

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: can get into this book yes we are the culture black Chicago's influence on everything is an

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: anthology collection of how black Chicagoans contributed to the culture writ large from

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the ways the great migration shaped the city into what it is and how those throngs of people

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: seeking the warmth of other sons created blues revolutionized jazz and went on to create national

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: publications documenting black life arian nettles book picks up where the defender ebony and jet

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: left off focusing on Chicago's global impact in music beauty and fashion sports and much much more

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: here's arian okay i'll read from the introduction from Chicago with love

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: written while listening to sunday candy by dianity trumpet in the social experiment

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: i am from the south side of chicago that tells you as much about me

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: as you need to know michelle obama and the documentary of a coming

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the first thing i ever learned as far as identity was twofold i knew i was black

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and i knew i was from chicago and frankly those were the only two things that mattered to me

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that's because chicago is more than just a place where i grew up it's the place that is an integral part of me

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: i grew up playing in the streets and alleys roller skating and biking even over broken

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: concrete throughout my south side black where my family had lived for three generations

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: everything about this neighborhood to me has translated to love strength and street savviness

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: i went to chicago public schools molded by teachers who along with my family

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: intentionally instilled a sense of black pride into me letting me know that i came from a

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: long line of amazingly smart and creative black people and that so many of those black people

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: had spent time here in this beautiful city where they created community and cultivated each other's

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: talents and i was a city kid going to city parts after school spending hours and hours in city

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: libraries entering city oratory and poetry contests participating in art fest so it was not

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: lost on me how chicago itself is and always has been an epicenter of culture and how black chicagoans

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: have been contributors to that culture chicago is in my dna and when a city is part of your identity

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: it means something different it means you're very much invested in that city's story how it's

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: cold and who's doing the telling and when it comes to what makes chicago chicago i've never felt that

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: story was shared enough here let alone with the rest of the world thank you so one time i remember

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe a year or so ago i was home and my brother's girlfriend and i took my nephew my kids her

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: kids to the park downtown in maggie daily park and we drove and we parked downtown we had a day at

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the park and then we were driving back home and for some reason lake shore drive how to get on it from

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: lower wacker drive was closed so we had to go around and so we had to go around through

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the north side like through chicago avenue and then come back south that way okay and what i noticed

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: as i was driving and it really made me sad was because chicago is segregated still

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and the way the city is divided you know downtown the north and south loop the gold coast

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the north side it's one of the prettiest cities you'll ever see in life i stand on that tento's

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: down but then as we were driving south i began to get so sad because then i see all the demolition

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: from the robber tailor homes or all of the projects that have come down and then the graffiti

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: starts to pick up and the neighborhoods change then you know you go from scenies broad

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: avenues and these lights and all of these different things to seeing you know the hood

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: basically and it really made me sad and what i love about your book is that it is centered on the

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: south side a lot of it it is centered on black chicago and so it was a reason to have joy about

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: this side of the city that has been neglected at times and also is still really resilient and given

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: all the stories that are told about chicago when they do hit mainstream news than being so negative

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and always about the crime your book did the exact opposite so can you lean more into talking about

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: finding the joy in these stories of the black community of chicago that are far more important

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: than just the negative ones that we see in a nightly news ticker so often a lot of the people

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: who are telling those stories are not from here right like you know we know by being in the news

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that you know national news media they cannot be as specific as like you know local media that's

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: why local media is also so important because you know the loss of local media in any city

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: is detrimental because those are the people who cover like the little league games and

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the park openings and you know the galleries and like the smaller things that mean a lot to

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a community national news of course can never do that it can never show those unique parts of a city

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: or a side of a city that's not their goal anyways right they're kind of looking at national trends

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: bigger ideas and we also have like big national politicians and leaders who like to malign chicago

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in such a way that people who've never been here often say like oh you're from chicago

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: oh my goodness you know and growing up in chicago regardless of what has ever happened

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: i never felt that like i never felt growing up from in chicago that i was at a loss of anything

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: i never felt that i was denied anything i felt like the city was that i had all these things for me

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: right and i think we forget especially being in a city like chicago where we do like of course

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of things that we need to work on and we should critique our own city and like fight for

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: better always but we being in like this kind of like global city we have all these things like

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: parks and some of the biggest and best libraries and archives and we have all of these things

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: at our fingertips just on the south side like i literally live like less than a mile away

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: from an international monument over in pulmonary so like i can take my son and he will ride our bike

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: over there and so we have all of these gyms and all of this history and beautiful things that are just

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so close to us all this culture surrounds us and you grow up with it you know like i was

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to somebody who's like yeah you know gwenland brooks just came to my school

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and i'm like oh yeah i think gwenland brooks might have came to my school too right and so

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you just have all these experiences with these amazing people because they live here and they

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: they grew up here or they spent so much time here and it's really hard to see your city as

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: this horrible place if you associate it with all this greatness exactly and so from music fashion

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: black news and media sports all of those different things have their global origination points

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: in the city of chicago what were some of the most fascinating parts of that story for you to uncover

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the most fascinating parts were like a lot of the details of like how much that reach was

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: because like for example i knew growing up that johnson publishing company was in chicago

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: right um i don't think i realized that like johnson publishing company because i was so young i

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't realize that they were like covering international black news i didn't realize that

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: they had people stationed over in different parts of africa i didn't realize all of that right

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and i should have i guess because like even when you think about like haircare my aunt

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: worked for south shane which was based in chicago and that's how she ended up moving to south africa

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: because they were doing haircare activations and different work over in south africa specifically

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and she ended up being like over their international partners and so like these companies

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: started in chicago right but they have like these wide global reaches you just don't think

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: about that and so it's all these people having these really wide reaching things but they don't

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: they didn't have social media to post like hey y'all i'm just i'm back in south africa working for

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: south chic come get at me if i'm in johberg right like so they have all these like stories that

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like until you talk to them you're it's like wow what you did what and i think was so funny

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: about that because like i loved everything about the book but even like the stories about

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: like the fashion like i think everybody knew ebony fashion fair but i think it was like the

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: stories about the haircare because we live by luster's pink or moisturizer lotion

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: in high school like yes everybody every girl had a bottle in their locker everybody and like we

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: live by it but like i don't even think i knew that was a chicago product as much as i knew

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that dudley's was with the dudley blue grease which also you got your hair pressed with a

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: bottle of blue grease from dudley's it was just that's the way it happened but i think you talking

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: about that is that so many of these stories that you uncovered and that you're telling the history of

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: have gone untold and i think for some reason i don't know if it's just black chicago or black

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: people in general that if we don't ask the questions the stories don't get told because

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: i guess they're written off as inconsequential or just a part of life did you find that

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: in doing the research for this book and uncovering and telling these stories

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah and i think there's just so much where people like you would talk to people and they're

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like well nobody ever asked me like people are ready to tell you you know you just have to find

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: them so like i was talking with you know charlotte draper and she was one of ebony's food editors

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and she was one of the first actually she was the first person to cook in their test kitchen when

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: they open up their new building right and the way she would talk she's like yeah so people

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: would sit in recipes and she's like well you know before we put a recipe in the magazine i cooked

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the recipe to make sure right and then so people would just walk past so like let's say you're

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a celebrity and you're just walking past the test kitchen and you're like let me try these greens

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: let me have a little bit of this chocolate cake like it's just wild to envision right but this

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: was just people's everyday lives absolutely and also part of the everyday lives is where you talk

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: about the things that think that we held on close to as children i'm specifically thinking about

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the rank and the route and the culture of roller skating and then or not roller skating on

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: friday and saturday night yeah yeah and the importance of the music you talk about house music

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and footwork in which i love why were some of these you know parts of the culture that don't get a lot

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of mainstream play outside i mean they do now thanks to social feel like i'm thinking about

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the footworkings especially um but like a lot of that i don't even think with the artists

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that we've had coming out of the city have people really been checking for chicago like that

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah i mean i think because it's just kind of like people don't really know it's like those

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: are stories where like we know because we grew up in that culture but i think that it's not

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily given its academic or scholarly race it's not seen as like as cultural yeah it's not

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: seen like oh this is a cultural like revolution as some of the older stuff um which is also because

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: probably at the time those things weren't either right like we look at like the blues at the time

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the blues was seen as like oh it's just some stuff that the young people are doing right

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and so i think it was also important for me to also start to talk about stuff that was not as old

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: because i think that that is just also as important and i think that we have a tendency

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and when i say we i mean society to trivialize the things that young black people enjoy

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of explaining and showing how they are a marker of the times and how they are

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: means of cultural expression and we've seen that throughout history right um and it's why

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: things might not get be seen as like oh this amazing thing until 30 40 50 years until after

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the people have gone and they're no longer doing it and now it's seen as something that only old

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: people do so i feel like that's a comment on chicago but also a comment on black culture at large

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah whereas like the things that we create whether it's the blues or drill music or you know

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: footwork in our tap dance or whatever the case may be especially in culture it's often

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: minimalized and in this age of social media and algorithms in the behemoth that is coming that is

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: ai you know a lot of those contributions are intentionally suppressed yeah so then how

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: much more difficult is it then for someone like you in your position to uncover those stories

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: where as soon as something black and trendy starts it's dismissed or the credit is given

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to someone else who is not black yeah i do think it's helpful if you're there from the start

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: right it is harder once more and more time passes especially like you mentioned now the world is

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: different so talk about tiktok dances for example right and i use that because there has been such a

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: huge discussion around tiktok and black tiktok creators getting credit for their original

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: choreography so if you're not there from the beginning if you go back five years it's really

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to then remember look and see so like for example i cannot even remember the young lady's

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: name but i remember the controversy around i think was that the renegade dance that's exactly

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: what i was thinking about when i asked this question yes and if people did not do articles

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: around that if i go now and say oh i'm writing a book and i want to include it and all i remember

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: is that it was the renegade dance the only way for me to really remember and be able to give

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: her proper credit will be to now reference the stories written about it and so i needed

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: someone to document that at that time because things just move so fast because several yeah her

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: name is jillilah harman yes yes renegade dance yes and so now we've had you know more instances of

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that but that was like the first major instance of things happening and so if we didn't have

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: journalists who cover trends and online behavior in digital media i wouldn't be able to like

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: go back and reference it and you know but because of that i can go back i can reference what they wrote

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: i can cite them properly i can do all those things if i were to now write a book about it

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: so then with that being said about how difficult it may become to chronicle what's happening now

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: what was the most difficult or challenging part about writing this book and uncovering the stories

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: of like those first black newspapers even before the defender yeah so there were a lot of things i

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted to say and i couldn't answer in the editing process especially which is the beauty of it right

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: generally you know if you're doing a newer story your editor will say well who did this what was

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: this right and then you know you go back through what you know you might go back through your

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: book you might go back to the person you interviewed and there were a lot of questions that my editor

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: would have for me and my answer to her would be we just don't know so there was a lot that i could

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: not answer and it's because i can't go back and google renegade dance creator black girl right

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: i just might know something really generic like the chicago style jazz created is what most

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: people did like the lindey hop to i believe that is true that's as specific as i can get if i say

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: a statement like that i don't really know who i don't really know the person you know i can

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: mention the jazz musicians who played from chicago around that time but i myself cannot say this

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: particular person heard chicago jazz and decided they wanted to start doing the lindey hop to

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it right like i can't do that so it's a lot that i just can't answer and i have to make a lot of

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: generalizations and as journalists we don't like to make assumptions and so a lot of times

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: i would either just not be able to answer it or i would say well we don't know who did this

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but we know that it made its way here by this time or something you know so

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: i hate saying that but a lot of times i'm just like i can't i don't know that or like me fact checking

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff in other books and then i'm like this is not quite true so like i was reading a book

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's like the one kind of definitive biography on robber abbott and it was written by somebody

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who knew his family and so it's pretty close right it was with interviews from people who

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: knew him so most of it is really accurate right but somewhere in the book he mentions that like

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: 32 papers or something in chicago failed while abbott was at the helm of the defender

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and so just doing spot checks of that fact i found some of that to be untrue and misleading

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: right so stuff like that would happen all the time and i'm just like so even books that i do

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: trust i have to fact check like you can't just take the method yeah um people make mistakes it's

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of what you know why we always tell students or young journalists like hey try not to use secondary

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: sources because other people make mistakes and so you want your stuff to be as accurate as possible

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and just knowing that when you put something in a book people take that as fact so i just wanted

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to be very careful but that just takes it takes a really long time to write like that when you are

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: triple tracking every fact it does but then it also seems like a lot of stuff got left on the

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: cutting room floor so is there something that you didn't include in the book that you wanted to

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: there were a lot more things about music that i just couldn't include because that would

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: have just been a whole thing about music so like there's not technically like a section

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: about jazz i do talk about jazz but i more so talk about jazz in other places throughout and so

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: there's just so many things i could have talked about in that um dance other type of dance like

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: kathryn dunham but you just get to a point and you're like i have talked about so much

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't think i have space for anything else there's just so much more i could have written

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: about i didn't write about the bears and i think that especially like when you're talking about

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like the 85 bears i think they had a pretty influential part and even though they weren't

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: like you know the whole team wasn't black i think that there were some black players on there

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: especially that kind of made a pretty big indents in culture so there's a lot that i could have

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: done some more on but i was just like i gotta be done at some point so is there we are the

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: culture part two or is this enough for now i don't know i don't know i think this is enough for now but

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: i will i will never say never because i even know so much more than i knew like industries and sub

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: industries and there's just so many more stories to tell so then what do you think is the defining

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: aspect if you can drill it down to one of black chicago if i had to drill it down to just one

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: thing is that we find creativity in everything right in every crevice of the city in every

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: type of thing we're always going to find opportunity we're always going to find creativity

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we're always going to make something be culturally fun and different and amazing even if you don't

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily think it is we're always going to find something really cool and i think that

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that should be respected amen so now i want to move to a speed round in the game before i let you go

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: for the morning afternoon what is your favorite book their eyes were watching god by zora new

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01]: herston who was your favorite author i guess i just didn't say zora new herston you don't have

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to it's nobody different no no no because i think she just she wrote a lot of stuff with her

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: she would say one line and i'm like i have to ponder on this one line for a month

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: as if i never heard it like i'll reread a zora new herston book and one line will just stop

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: me in my tracks and i'm like oh soora so yeah i think so we didn't talk about this in the interview

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but i still wouldn't know because chicago is kind of known for like poetry and spoken word

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you think if you think there is a difference between poetry and spoken word

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't think that there is a difference but i think that spoken word is funnier to joke about

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: in jokes and tv shows like you know rafael they like ghetto on fresh principale like that's just

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: funny like it's always going to be funny um and i love poetry and spoken word but that's still

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: gonna be funny to me like i feel like that's not you know or like when timon was on girlfriends

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was telling all of his and lian's business business yes yes it's always going to be good

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: who is your favorite artist you know i'm trying not to say biancé

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's okay if you do but it is biancé like i'm just trying to think of somebody who's

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: it's probably it's biancé um and that is okay yeah it's biancé i just i just she i just and i'm not

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and i don't stand anybody so i just try not to say it like that like it's not like just because

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it's biancé but i think that like especially me and her are close enough in age where

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: as she grows and she puts out more albums like when she was a teen i was a teen and now she's

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: older and doing these like more grown woman albums and now i'm older and doing more growth so the

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: content matches my growth as an adult and i think that that's honestly why it feels

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: like a very natural progression that's real what is your favorite chicago based movie or tv show

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: south side the comedy show if money were no object where would you go what would you do

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and where would you live if money was no object i think i would actually live in johannesburg

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in south africa and i would write and i think i would have a jet because since my son is special

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: needs like i would i don't think i could ever like live abroad because i don't think he could

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: he could ever hand like i don't fly with him so i don't ever want to move someplace i can't

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: drive but if money was no object we could move to johannesburg we could fly on the private

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: jet so he could be able to be comfortable i wouldn't be bothering people like it would just be a like

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: more pleasant experience and i would just like write books i support this name three things on

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: your bucket list one thing on my bucket list is to write a romance novel just because i read

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: so much of them i really want to write one second thing on my bucket list is i want to have like a

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: foundation like i want to have so like it's not necessarily that i have so much money but i want

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to like maybe if even if i'm poor like use other people's money to like just give

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it away to people who need it and be like here's a scholarship for somebody who can't afford to

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: college here's money for this struggling mom like i want to be able to like less people

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and then i guess the third thing would be i still want to hit podcasts i've never had like a hit

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast you know like i've done some podcast work and it's been fun but i want something that's like

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a hit and pays bills i get it or even even if it doesn't pay a lot of the bills like can

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it pay for itself that part yeah even if it can just pay for itself and i could have a little help

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: i think i'd be okay like so that's my definition of hit is just it pay for itself that is also

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: my definition of hit and if anybody would like to sponsor black and published see i am open see y'all

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and what brings you peace dancing and community all right so the game is called rewriting the

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: classics classic is however you define it although i know you read some of the classes because

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: we went to high school together so name one book that you wish you would have written

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: i would say atavia butlers kindred name a book where you want to change the ending

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and how would you do it their eyes are watching god i really wanted different

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: for janey and teacake everybody wants different for janey and teacake all right and so name a book

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that you think is overrated or over talked and why oh my gosh there's so many i'm trying to

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: remember one that i because i i intentionally pushed them out of my head um i feel like there's just a

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of um the same shakespeare rean things and it's kind of like and we switch it up because

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: i also don't know why romeo and juliette is always one like it can be others like even if you

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: want people to get into like that spec shakespearean speak i feel like there's other stories that could

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe have a cooler thing but i get the whole thing about like you can watch the tv versions

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and read the book and then like you can like if you're doing drama you can act up to play but

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: i just feel like it's not as good because everybody knows what's gonna happen

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: before they read it so i feel like it's a little played out like like a little i think

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: switching it up on the shakespeare so shakespeare is the answer yeah so my final question for you

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: today when you're dead and gone and among the ancestors what would you like someone to write

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: about the legacy of words and work that you've left behind i want people to write

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that i loved people through what i wrote i've actually thought about this a lot like when i'm gone

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: what do i want my words to mean to people and i want them to be an expression of my love big thank

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: you to arianne nettles for being here today on black and published make sure you check out arianne's

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: first book we are the culture black chicago's influence on everything and if you're not following

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_02]: arianne check her out on the socials she's at arianne nettles on twitter and instagram

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that's our show for the week if you like this episode and want more black and published

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: head to our instagram page it's at black and published and that's blk and published there

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: i've posted a bonus clip from my interview with arianne about why she wasn't worried about

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: making her book acceptable for the academy make sure you check it out and let me know what you

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: think in the comments i'll highlight y'all next year for black and published season five in 2025

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: i'll be back with more books more blackness and more of the journeys of the writers poets and

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_02]: playwrights we love talk to you then peace