BONUS: A Living Language with jarrett hill & Tre'vell Anderson

[00:00:09] What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. And I'm excited to share with you five of my favorite episodes from the last four seasons.

[00:00:28] This week's rewind is from season four with authors Jarrett Hill and Trevell Anderson, who wrote the book Historically Black Phrases, from I ain't one of your little friends to who all gon' be there?

[00:00:42] What I love about this episode is how fun it was. Jarrett, Trevell, and I laughed and kiki'd on this podcast for the entirety of 90 minutes, okay? The jokes were joking.

[00:00:53] However, amidst the jokes is the very real conversation about language and Blackness and the intersections of the two. How we use words to hurt and harm others as much as we use them to lift each other up.

[00:01:07] And the communities who face erasure because of our failure to acknowledge their contributions to the culture. So, as much as we caught up on this episode, we also corrected the record.

[00:01:19] Here's A Living Language with Jarrett Hill and Trevell Anderson.

[00:01:48] Let's jump right in. First question for both of you. When did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:57] I love this show already.

[00:02:00] Right?

[00:02:02] What a question. I'll go first. I think I knew I was a writer, I will say, in high school.

[00:02:11] My sophomore year, I had just moved to Columbia, South Carolina. I'm a military brat.

[00:02:16] And I had a friend in a class who recruited me to doing Model United Nations.

[00:02:23] And in Model UN, you have to write these very long research papers and whatnot.

[00:02:28] And the advisor for Model UN was like, oh, you actually kind of ate this. You should join the newspaper.

[00:02:38] And I was like, me? The newspaper?

[00:02:42] And so that's my villain origin story as it relates to being a writer.

[00:02:48] Not villain.

[00:02:49] Villain origin story.

[00:02:51] Well, it's interesting because we have that in common.

[00:02:55] So yes, similarly, my sophomore English teacher became the newspaper advisor my junior year in high school and was like, I think you should be on the newspaper from our English class.

[00:03:08] And I was like, no, that sounds so whack.

[00:03:12] Like, nobody cool is on the newspaper.

[00:03:15] Like, I liked him as a teacher and I was like intrigued and I had always been like a kid that liked news.

[00:03:21] And so like there was that interest in it, but I wasn't to broadcast.

[00:03:24] And so I was like, uh, okay, sure.

[00:03:28] That sounds like it could be interesting.

[00:03:30] And like, that was the beginning for me.

[00:03:32] Our first story was about kids kissing on campus and how disgusting it was.

[00:03:38] And it went essentially viral at the time before there was an internet.

[00:03:42] And it was the first time of feeling like, oh, wow, this, this has like some power to it.

[00:03:47] Like people are responding to it and having a feeling about it and asking questions about it.

[00:03:52] And I was like, there's something to this.

[00:03:54] This is interesting.

[00:03:55] So let's make this a full circle moment because I also was on my high school newspaper.

[00:04:01] My junior, senior year, and then went on to do broadcast journalism as a career for a bit.

[00:04:07] So then how did this discovery of words in your formative years carry you throughout your careers in writing and media and entertainment?

[00:04:17] I didn't really think about it a whole lot until I moved away to go to college.

[00:04:22] I moved and went away to Clark, Atlanta.

[00:04:25] I had done community college for two years and I did some newspaper there.

[00:04:28] And then like when I left, though, people at the time, we didn't have social media.

[00:04:33] And so they asked me to send them emails.

[00:04:35] They're like, oh, well, email us and let us know what's going on in Atlanta because I'm from the Bay Area.

[00:04:39] And like after, you know, a few dozen people had asked me to send them an email, I was like, oh, I could just do like a monthly email or something.

[00:04:47] But being myself, like I designed it.

[00:04:49] I had photos.

[00:04:50] I had, you know, a layout.

[00:04:52] I had a different photo of me every month.

[00:04:55] And so like then it was interesting to get to write about what was happening in life and like to hear back from people to then add in other people.

[00:05:04] Like I started to see like the real power in it for myself as something that I wanted to to try and embrace a little bit more and figure out what I could do with it.

[00:05:13] I think for me, knowing that I could write well has served me well in my career because you can't you can't tell me I can't write.

[00:05:23] You may not like what I wrote.

[00:05:24] No, OK, but you can't tell me is bad because I've been doing this since sophomore year high school, you know.

[00:05:33] And so I think that that has been helpful, particularly for me, because I find myself going into a lot of spaces in which I am discounted and I am discredited.

[00:05:42] And when I started straight out of grad school at the L.A. Times in a diversity fellowship program, you know, you are often dealing with people thinking that you're the diversity high or thinking that you you got in here because you know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody.

[00:05:57] It's like, no, girl, I'm a bad bitch.

[00:05:59] That's why I got here.

[00:06:00] OK, and you about to see.

[00:06:02] And so having that confidence in my writing and instilled, I think, that early has served me in terms of just like having a security in what I bring to the table in my writing.

[00:06:13] And now I got two books.

[00:06:15] So, you know, look at that.

[00:06:18] All right.

[00:06:19] OK, then.

[00:06:20] So we're just going to lean into that line of conversation because a lot of times journalism is the way that a lot of Black writers.

[00:06:30] Find their way into writing.

[00:06:33] And I've said this numerous times on this podcast, whether you get an MFA or MA or graduate degree or not, it's just because it's a job with a check.

[00:06:41] Right.

[00:06:41] That part.

[00:06:42] But even entering a space that Black people have dominated in some ways, especially with Black centered outlets, there is still an othering that happens.

[00:06:53] How have you all navigated that in your careers, whether it's for being Black or being queer or both and trying to tell the stories that were assigned to you, but also of community?

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:07] I mean, doing extra work.

[00:07:09] Right.

[00:07:09] And I hate to say that, but that's the reality.

[00:07:12] I remember being at the L.A. Times knowing I wanted to talk about Black people.

[00:07:16] I want to talk about queer people, you know, but there was a broader belief that those stories didn't matter, weren't important to focus our energy or resources on.

[00:07:28] This is in a, you know, pre Oscar so white world.

[00:07:31] And so I found myself having to do the things that I was assigned and then doing extra work to slide in this other story about this Tyler Perry movie that I was certain would be number one at the box office.

[00:07:44] And it was, or doing extra work to, to, I started recapping Empire before that first couple episodes when like the ratings boom happened.

[00:07:55] And I was telling them, I was like, y'all, I had screened it early.

[00:07:58] I was like, listen, Taraji P. Henson, Terrence Howard, baby, this is going to be the best thing since sliced bread.

[00:08:04] And they were like, who?

[00:08:06] Taraji who?

[00:08:07] And I was like, what do you mean?

[00:08:08] She's Oscar nominated.

[00:08:10] Cut it out.

[00:08:11] Stop playing in my face.

[00:08:12] And so I often say that Oscar so white gave me job security because it was only after Oscar so white happened.

[00:08:19] And the industry at large started talking about diversity and inclusion in more meaningful ways that I was able to, in large part, stop covering all of those other things and was kind of granted the ability to carve out my own beat and largely focus on Black film and queer film almost exclusively.

[00:08:40] But it did take, you know, for a period of time doing extra work to like prove the importance of, of these particular stories.

[00:08:49] Travelle and I have had such different career paths, right?

[00:08:54] So like I moved to LA 12 years ago after living in Atlanta for six years.

[00:08:59] I had dropped out of college my fourth year and like was really feeling like I was not sure what I was because I didn't finish my degree and I wasn't working.

[00:09:09] So I was like, am I a producer?

[00:09:11] Am I a writer?

[00:09:11] Am I of this?

[00:09:12] Am I of that?

[00:09:12] But, you know, fast forward a number of years, moving to Los Angeles, I started a podcast working in the post-production office of America's Next Top Model.

[00:09:24] And like that was our opportunity to have conversation about what was happening in the news.

[00:09:29] But then as we expanded it, it was our opportunity to bring on people who you would never otherwise hear from, who were actors, who were singers, who were, you know, comics, who were writers, who were, you know, creators, who were just coming on to have conversations with us on the show.

[00:09:45] And so I started writing at Huffington Post, like as a contributor when I was working on the new Ricky Lake show, not the original one, but the bad second one.

[00:09:53] And so that got me the opportunity to write at the Huffington Post.

[00:09:57] And like they let me do my coming out story.

[00:10:00] And that was the first time I had published something in a national platform.

[00:10:04] And then in 2016, I broke the Malanga Trump plagiarism story.

[00:10:07] But that got me into writing in diversity verticals, right?

[00:10:11] Like I didn't get hired somewhere after that.

[00:10:14] And like they were like, oh, my God, you're going to get a job anywhere.

[00:10:16] And like that didn't happen that way.

[00:10:18] But I was freelancing at a lot of different places through diversity verticals, getting to tell the stories of Black folks, of queer folks, and sometimes Black and queer folks.

[00:10:26] And that kind of like brought us to this point now where we're working together on Fantae and giving the lens of how we see the world as Black folks, as queer folks, as trans folks in Terrell's case, and all the different other intersections and where we show up.

[00:10:39] Can we talk about why there's no such thing as job security, right?

[00:10:44] So why do you think that even with notoriety, credentials, viral fame, whatever the case may be, is it still so difficult for Black writers to be seen as such and paid their worth?

[00:11:08] I'm going to let you take that one.

[00:11:10] Go ahead.

[00:11:10] Well, I think that, you know, I got a little thang in the arsenal ready for this one.

[00:11:16] I think that it's still a white industry.

[00:11:19] And I mean that in every way possible, right?

[00:11:22] Like the foundation of this industry is a white supremacist one.

[00:11:26] And despite efforts to atone for a newsroom's racism or anti-Blackness, despite attempts to hire D, E, and I representatives, despite attempts to hire Black people to cover explicitly Black people, it is still a white supremacist institution.

[00:11:46] And so we will only ever be regarded as the PC, the diversity hire, the extra, but not the foundation, not the core of a newsroom, right?

[00:12:03] And so because the foundation of our industry is white supremacist, because these newsrooms and these outlets aren't seriously interested in grappling with, right, how to make transformative change in these places.

[00:12:16] And rather they're invested in temporary change, momentary change, just putting a Black face on a white institution, right?

[00:12:26] That leads to the continued issues that we are having, even now in a post-summer of racial reckoning, in which all of this was supposed to be a thing of the past, as advertising dollars are shrinking, as newsrooms are shutting down every week, right?

[00:12:44] More and more, it's the Black folks, it's the Brown folks who were hired over the last three years in these positions that were supposed to be transformative for these spaces.

[00:12:53] And mind you, this goes across industries, not just journalism.

[00:12:58] To be clear, we are the ones now losing our jobs.

[00:13:01] And so it begs the question, how committed were you really to being anti-racist?

[00:13:07] I mean, there's so much to say here.

[00:13:10] I'm more so thinking of like, where do we even start, right?

[00:13:14] Like, because there's so much to it.

[00:13:16] The thing that was coming up for me toward the end of what Trae Velt was saying was, I get to do some work as a consultant outside of working as a journalist.

[00:13:26] And I was working with one of the major studios on doing some diversity, equity, and inclusion work.

[00:13:31] But it was interesting to me that like, after offering them like a full package that they were really excited about, like, they just never moved on it, right?

[00:13:39] So like, it's an interesting kind of dynamic to see happening because like, people say they want to be better.

[00:13:45] But then like, when you get to the part of like, actually being better, it's a different conversation.

[00:13:49] And yet in this climate, you two decided to release a book, Travelle 2, because your memoir came out in May.

[00:13:58] Okay, so I will start with you, Travelle.

[00:14:01] Why was it important for you to take the breadth of your experience and put them down into words that could be delivered to the public?

[00:14:10] Starting with your memoir, We See Each Other, A Black Trans Journey Through TV and Film, and then on to Historically Black Sayings.

[00:14:17] Yeah, so We See Each Other is part memoir, part history of trans images on screen, told through my Black, queer, non-binary, trans experience.

[00:14:29] And I basically take various pivotal moments in trans visibility since the beginning of moving images and juxtapose them against my own personal lived experience.

[00:14:39] And in particular, the last decade or so of my reporting on diversity in Hollywood.

[00:14:46] And ultimately, I think it was important to do that book because a book like it doesn't exist.

[00:14:51] A textual resource that had this information, but specifically had this information from a Black trans perspective and got us thinking about the pitfalls of visibility.

[00:15:04] It didn't exist.

[00:15:05] And to me, that stunted and stunts the conversation, ongoing conversations around diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging in this industry.

[00:15:15] Because folks don't know the history. Folks don't know the impact of the images that we have seen.

[00:15:21] Or at least folks don't want to wrestle with the impact of the images that we've seen.

[00:15:27] And then I think when it came to historically Black phrases, ironically, there's also kind of a similar impetus there,

[00:15:33] which is we have grown up often being told that the ways that we naturally speak as Black people are wrong or they're unprofessional or they're not appropriate.

[00:15:44] And we are forced in a lot of ways to code switch.

[00:15:47] And you speak one way around your friends, you speak a different way when you go to work, you know, all of that.

[00:15:52] And the reality is, and the interesting thing is, you know, in so many ways and at so many times,

[00:15:58] I'm seeing that the ways that we all were told that we couldn't speak in newsrooms,

[00:16:03] the ways that we were told that we couldn't speak in boardrooms,

[00:16:07] other people are speaking in those spaces, using it in their headlines, using it in their presentations,

[00:16:13] getting clicks off of it, getting supported off of it, getting affirmed off of it.

[00:16:17] And so why can't we talk and show up the same fucking way in the space as well, right?

[00:16:23] Because you got it from us.

[00:16:24] You got it from that Black influencer on social media.

[00:16:27] You got it from the Real Housewives of Atlanta who got it from their Black gay or Black queer assistant or makeup artist, right?

[00:16:35] And so part of the book was about asserting like the validity and the importance of how we naturally speak

[00:16:42] and hopefully kind of egging people on to like show up as you are in the spaces that you find yourself in.

[00:16:49] Because why not?

[00:16:51] For me, like this was a, this book has been such a long journey.

[00:16:56] It started off with me doing like social media posts on Facebook,

[00:16:59] defining what fuck boy was right after a nigga had gotten on my nerves, right?

[00:17:03] And like, and like charge it to the game and all these other things, right?

[00:17:07] And I was like, and I was using the hashtag historically Black phrases, right?

[00:17:13] And like, I always thought that name was too long.

[00:17:15] I always thought it was going to be something that I'd have to cut down or change.

[00:17:18] But like, I thought when someone asked me in my comments, if I was doing a book, like, oh, I should do a book.

[00:17:23] And so it started me really getting interested in like the things that we say

[00:17:28] and why we say them or how we say them differently.

[00:17:30] And more specifically, like what we mean when we say them, because I find so often that we will be having conversations about things

[00:17:40] and using words in different ways and meaning different things and then arguing about it, right?

[00:17:46] And having disagreement or having tension around our misunderstanding of what we're talking about.

[00:17:54] And so like, that's been one of the things that's been interesting for me to interrogate as well in the process of this book.

[00:17:59] But like, overall, I think the thing that has really been the best to me about this process with this book

[00:18:05] has been feeling validated as a Black person who speaks and writes in this world.

[00:18:10] We've spoken often about our love for the linguist that does the consulting in this book.

[00:18:15] Her name is Dr. Anne H. Charity Hudley.

[00:18:18] And she talks about how Black language is real language, right?

[00:18:22] It is not broken English.

[00:18:23] It's not something for us to be ashamed of or feel or to disrespect or not have an appreciation for.

[00:18:30] But it is real language that has real origin and has a real story and comes from somewhere and means something, right?

[00:18:37] And it is unique to us in various different kinds of ways.

[00:18:40] And like, I didn't come into this looking for that kind of validation, but I certainly got it along the way.

[00:18:46] Because this process has been seven years since like the first social media posts, right?

[00:18:51] And two years since we sold it as a book.

[00:18:53] And so it's been quite an interesting thing to put out into this world right now that we're in.

[00:18:58] When, as Travell talks about, we see the ways that our language gets used and monetized by people who are not the creators of it, right?

[00:19:05] And I don't just mean Black language, but in our book we talk about Black queer language, right?

[00:19:10] And where a lot of things come from Black queer language.

[00:19:13] We talk about how those things come from Black church as well, right?

[00:19:17] And we see it being used out in the world and being monetized and grown out as a thing for other people to build industry off of.

[00:19:23] I think it's interesting that you mentioned that the book was sold two years ago because, as Travell, you mentioned earlier,

[00:19:29] that was at the height of, oh my gosh, we care about Black people, DEI, Black Lives Matter, oh my gosh.

[00:19:36] Like after the racial reckoning and George Floyd and all of the names and the hashtags in the summer of protests

[00:19:42] is when industries, including journalism and publishing, made a concerted effort to reach out to Black writers, Black creatives to get their work.

[00:19:51] So what was the process of taking this book from proposal to two years later where we're kind of seeing all that support wane

[00:20:02] and things going back to what they were before?

[00:20:05] And now you have this cultural artifact of the ways in which we speak.

[00:20:13] Well, you know, praise the Lord that we signed our contract two years ago and, you know, you know, we...

[00:20:21] Praise the Lord.

[00:20:23] But I think after I had sold my book, but before we had sold historically Black phrases is when the hashtag publishing paid me

[00:20:31] started happening on social media and you had largely Black authors, but a lot of white authors as well,

[00:20:37] putting out this is how much we got for our advance and stuff like that.

[00:20:41] I think that type of information helped us.

[00:20:44] And I think it helped many folks who signed book deals in that moment to like know what we should be interested in,

[00:20:52] what we should be looking for, what would be kind of commiserate for the type of book we were doing.

[00:20:57] And then I think we also, you know, just to be quite frank, benefited from this reckoning that was happening in publishing.

[00:21:03] We had, was it eight houses, you know, were bidding on historically Black phrases?

[00:21:09] And, you know, which praise the Lord, shout out to us, right?

[00:21:13] But that is a manifestation of, right, so many different publishing houses wanting something like this

[00:21:22] that was expressly Negroidian, right, on their books.

[00:21:29] You know, as a demonstration in some ways of how those houses show up for Black folks,

[00:21:37] show up for folks of color in this particular moment.

[00:21:40] And both of us are queer, like, come on, you're checking a number of different boxes.

[00:21:44] That's just the reality of it.

[00:21:45] That said, after that moment, and in light of the sociopolitical discourse that's happening

[00:21:52] with the gutting of affirmative action, with the restricting of AP African-American history,

[00:21:58] with the limitation of critical race theory and queer history in schools and institutions across the United States,

[00:22:06] the book bans, et cetera, it is really wild to have a book like this coming out at this time,

[00:22:13] in which we're also still seeing, right, the ways in which Black culture gets exploited

[00:22:19] and ends up being something that benefits largely people who don't look like us.

[00:22:24] And so I think one of the things that has been really important for us

[00:22:27] is just making sure that we are centering Blackness as much as possible throughout this book, right,

[00:22:36] being as unconcerned as possible with the white gaze,

[00:22:40] even though we had a white woman, white person who purchased this book.

[00:22:45] The definitions that we were writing, we had some back and forth with our editor about,

[00:22:51] no, this how we would say it.

[00:22:54] And so we gonna leave it like that respectfully.

[00:22:59] And so like that was something that just sent her in and like deeply important to us throughout this process.

[00:23:05] Oh, the Geechee just came out of you right there.

[00:23:07] It did. I'm sorry.

[00:23:10] It showed up every now and again, you know.

[00:23:13] All the Geechee. Okay.

[00:23:15] So since we are here and we are talking about the book,

[00:23:18] if you could read your three favorite definitions, each of you, from this book

[00:23:24] so the people can know what they're getting into when they have this on their coffee table for reference.

[00:23:29] Oh.

[00:23:31] Interesting.

[00:23:31] Interesting.

[00:23:32] Historically Black Phrases is the dictionary of Black-ass sayings you didn't know you needed.

[00:23:39] From, I ain't one of your little friends, to, who all gonna be there?

[00:23:43] Jared and Travelle deliver a snapshot of the language as Black Americans are using it today

[00:23:49] to reveal the ethos behind how we live, love, welcome and warn, and sometimes hurt and harm each other with just our words.

[00:24:01] I'm gonna go with my favorite phrase in the book, which is a phrase that my grandmother used to always say.

[00:24:07] It is used to the rooster, don't crow no more.

[00:24:10] Okay.

[00:24:11] So used to the rooster, don't crow no more.

[00:24:13] The translation that we have in the book is what used to be is no longer.

[00:24:18] Usage.

[00:24:19] A retort said to someone stuck in their ways who was finding it difficult to grasp

[00:24:23] that the way they used to do something isn't how it's done now.

[00:24:28] Okay.

[00:24:29] The example that we came up with, quote,

[00:24:31] Back in my day, we had to fax all these papers to people.

[00:24:34] Beatrice said to her grandchild who responded,

[00:24:37] Well, luckily for us, used to the rooster, don't crow no more.

[00:24:40] Let me show you how to send the email.

[00:24:42] I love it.

[00:24:46] So the book is dedicated to Boo Boo the Fool.

[00:24:50] And the definition is on page 65.

[00:24:53] Pronunciation.

[00:24:55] Boo Boo the Fool.

[00:24:57] Translation.

[00:24:58] Someone who can be easily taken advantage of or someone trying to take advantage of a situation.

[00:25:05] Usage.

[00:25:05] Most often said within a question.

[00:25:08] The speaker aims to differentiate someone's intellect and or awareness, usually their own,

[00:25:13] from that of a commoner with whom one is being confused for.

[00:25:17] Usually said incredulously.

[00:25:19] Example.

[00:25:20] When the professor asked Nandi why their assignment was late,

[00:25:23] Nandi said their emotional support goldfish ate it.

[00:25:26] The professor responded,

[00:25:27] Oh, so you think I'm Boo Boo the Fool?

[00:25:28] Another one of my favorites is call a thing a thing.

[00:25:32] And the translation we have is to refrain from sugarcoating.

[00:25:37] Usage.

[00:25:38] An appeal for specificity and clarity.

[00:25:40] This is often said as retort or challenge to someone who is beating around the bush and avoiding saying something.

[00:25:46] This is typically said with fervor, indicative of a loss of patience by the speaker.

[00:25:52] Example.

[00:25:53] Tired of being called out at work for her aggressive behavior,

[00:25:57] Tylea confronted Susie in the break room.

[00:25:59] Let's just call a thing a thing.

[00:26:01] You feel some type of way about me because I'm a black woman.

[00:26:03] Um, I'm going to do one from our gossip and storytelling chapter, page 55.

[00:26:09] It's I come from the old school.

[00:26:11] Pronunciation.

[00:26:12] Phonetic with optional emphasis on old.

[00:26:15] Translation.

[00:26:16] My worldview or perspective is not modern on the given subject.

[00:26:21] Usage.

[00:26:22] Similar to back in my day, this phrase is usually used by someone old or older than the spoken to.

[00:26:29] Whatever this phrase qualifies is probably antiquated as hell.

[00:26:33] Usually preceded or followed by a longer, potentially more outdated statement or anecdote,

[00:26:40] which could very well be true, full of wisdom or otherwise useful, but that is decidedly not guaranteed.

[00:26:47] Example.

[00:26:48] See, I come from the old school.

[00:26:50] My mama will whoop your ass first and ask questions later, Martin said to his nieces and nephews.

[00:26:54] Y'all kids got away with way too much.

[00:26:57] Um, and then my last one I'm going to pull from the units of measure chapter.

[00:27:02] This is one of the funner chapters to me in the book, because y'all know black people got a particular way of measuring things, you know.

[00:27:08] So, you know, a corner, a swallow, right quick, dead ass, you know, that's a quick sampling.

[00:27:16] One of my favorite though is 50 lerm.

[00:27:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:21] Um, a translation, a whole lot.

[00:27:24] Usage.

[00:27:25] Expresses a number that is probably out of a reasonably countable range.

[00:27:30] Usually doesn't refer to money, but to people or plentiful things.

[00:27:33] When said sarcastically, it can simply mean many.

[00:27:37] Example.

[00:27:38] In her iconic Netflix concert documentary, Homecoming,

[00:27:42] Beyonce wraps a rehearsal session telling the cast and crew that she got to get home to her 50 lerm children.

[00:27:48] Um, I'm gonna do one from our queer and trans chapter.

[00:27:52] It's sugar in the tank.

[00:27:54] And I never thought about this, like, more deeply until having to write about it.

[00:28:00] Um, so I'll read it and explain what I mean.

[00:28:02] Sugar in the tank.

[00:28:04] Pronunciation, phonetic.

[00:28:05] Translation, gay.

[00:28:07] Usage.

[00:28:08] A largely disparaging and homophobic way to describe queer people, usually young boys and men.

[00:28:14] Sometimes used to suggest that a straight man might be closeted.

[00:28:18] Particularly problematic as it references the myth that putting sugar in a gas tank ruins the engine.

[00:28:25] Example.

[00:28:26] Gracie Lee and Dot sit on their shared porches every morning, watching the neighborhood kids go to school.

[00:28:32] When Ray crossed their yard with a little too much pep in his step, Dot said, he must have a little sugar in his tank.

[00:28:40] Now, I remember hearing this phrase, like, throughout my whole life, right?

[00:28:46] We still hear it sometimes.

[00:28:48] But, like, I knew what it meant, but I never, like, thought about, like, sugar in the gas tank ruins the engine.

[00:28:56] Right?

[00:28:56] Like, and what it does and how it destroys a car.

[00:29:01] When I had to write about it, that occurring to me, like, it just, it really sat with me in a different kind of way than just having heard it a million times.

[00:29:10] I feel like we have to have a moment.

[00:29:13] He said, let's take a breath.

[00:29:15] Let's take a breather.

[00:29:17] Because now it's hitting differently.

[00:29:19] It is hitting differently.

[00:29:20] And we have a few phrases in the book that were important for us to include because it is, like, an accurate reflection of the ways that we talk as Black folk, but are homophobic or transphobic or are, you know, perhaps ableist.

[00:29:38] And so, like, it was important for us to not shy away from some of those more thorny phrases in terms that we have sometimes used and heard in our community.

[00:29:49] Absolutely.

[00:29:51] So then for the both of you standing at the intersection of Blackness and queerness and exploring the ways in which our language, as colorful and as fun as it is, is also can be very harmful.

[00:30:05] And that harm is truly steeped in a type of self-hatred that stems from white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.

[00:30:12] Just call a thing a thing, shall we?

[00:30:16] Come on.

[00:30:17] What was it like to explore that underbelly of how we use words to hurt each other without ever throwing hands?

[00:30:26] Yeah.

[00:30:27] Which is another phrase in the book, throwing hands.

[00:30:30] See?

[00:30:30] I do my reading.

[00:30:31] Listen, okay.

[00:30:33] We weren't interested in sugarcoating the ways in which language in community has been weaponized against other groups within our community.

[00:30:42] And each other.

[00:30:44] Yeah, and each other.

[00:30:45] And I remember we actually interviewed, like, a dozen people across experience levels and backgrounds and identities to inform these essays that we write throughout the book about different aspects of Black language and Black culture.

[00:31:01] And in the essay that we have called A Lifeblood In and of Itself, that essay talks about queer and trans language.

[00:31:09] The language that comes specifically from Black, queer, and trans communities that has been popularized in a lot of ways by Black people who are not LGBTQ.

[00:31:20] And then that language has driven broader culture and how ultimately, you know, that essay speaks to how we feel like everybody, including Black people, need to put some respect on the contributions specifically of Black, queer, and trans people.

[00:31:37] Not only linguistically, but also in culture writ large.

[00:31:41] And in that essay, we interview Char Jocel, who's one of our close friends, a fabulous journalist and Black woman of trans experience.

[00:31:48] And she talks about the ways that Black people will use language that comes from Black, queer, and trans communities against us as queer and trans people, right?

[00:32:03] Showing their homophobia, showing their homophobia, and how wild it is to experience that.

[00:32:10] To have your own language, your own community's language weaponized against you, and having to navigate that as Black people who are also queer and trans.

[00:32:21] And so we didn't want to shy away from those particular elements because it is the reality of our linguistic practices.

[00:32:29] A lot of the things that we're talking about in the book are things that we've been, like, having to interrogate or question or have conversations about with each other through this process.

[00:32:39] Or also as journalists, though, right?

[00:32:41] As people who work in the world telling stories of Black folks and, like, recognizing the things that we see that are happening in the world and wanting to have conversation about that.

[00:32:49] Because when you're quoting someone, the language that they use sometimes is part of the conversation of whether or not you can use the quote that way or another way.

[00:32:57] Our first chapter is gossip and storytelling.

[00:32:59] We're journalists first, right?

[00:33:01] But our second chapter is cautions and warnings.

[00:33:04] And that is, like, all of the different ways that we tell each other, like, all right now, right?

[00:33:08] And, like, that's, who do you think you're talking to?

[00:33:11] And catch these hands and keep my name out your mouth and get out of my mouth and my nerves is bad, right?

[00:33:16] Like, so, like, we have language that we know is explicitly about, like, being defensive or being on offense.

[00:33:23] But then we also kind of talk throughout the book about the different ways that our language has had impact on other people as well.

[00:33:29] So, as our language is living and you've compiled here what we have thus far, what is your expectation for Black people who may or may not come to this text but who will live in the world and on social media where language evolves and is created that our language evolves to in the future?

[00:33:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:54] I mean, I think the thing that I would say is just keep going, you know?

[00:33:58] Like, Black folks is creating new phrases, new languages, new ways of saying things literally every single day on all of them apps.

[00:34:07] The tickety-tocks, all them young kids on the tickety-tocks, baby.

[00:34:10] The creation that is happening, we're witnessing it a lot more in real time.

[00:34:15] Like, I remember when Peaches Monroe first posted that video of her saying,

[00:34:20] like, eyebrows on fleek, da fuck?

[00:34:22] Da fuck?

[00:34:23] And seeing, seeing on fleek just spread, literally spread on social media in everybody's language.

[00:34:31] I was saying it, Forever 21 had it on t-shirts and it ballooned right before our very eyes.

[00:34:37] And there are so many other instances in which the way a Black person says something or the way that our language and, like, social media in particular has allowed it to continue evolving but also evolve at a rapid pace.

[00:34:50] And I would say keep going as a community, even though there will be people and there are people who want to take our language and benefit off of it.

[00:35:01] The reality is that we are a creative and deeply generative people.

[00:35:06] And so they can try to take and steal and pillage and plunder as much as they want from our linguistic practices.

[00:35:14] And yet we will still create more, right?

[00:35:17] We will, because that's just what we do.

[00:35:19] That is just an outgrowth of our humanity and our experience and our divinity.

[00:35:24] One of the things that we were very intentional about with this book is that it is the snapshot of how we are speaking and have been speaking in this time, right?

[00:35:33] I remember having a thought about the phrase jive turkey and thinking like, oh my God, wait, that doesn't feel like it fits in this book.

[00:35:42] And it was one of, like, a thousand different moments that I've had over the last seven years where I've been like, oh God, this has to go in the book.

[00:35:49] Oh, that has to go in the book, right?

[00:35:51] But I was thinking to myself, like, no one's really saying jive turkey right now.

[00:35:55] And so we were thinking about the things that we're saying right now or that we've grown up saying or that we hear our parents saying as being a snapshot of where we are right now and where we've been in this time.

[00:36:07] But also recognizing, like, there is a plethora of Black language that we cannot fit into 250 pages, right?

[00:36:13] And so we say that in this book and we know that there are other texts that, like, examine the ways that we speak and the things that we say and the further back origins of certain other things that we don't investigate and hear.

[00:36:25] And so I would say to Black folks now that are, like, thinking about the way that we speak to also to be free, right?

[00:36:31] To see things like this, whether you read this book or not or hear what we're working on or not.

[00:36:36] But, like, feel empowered to be who you are at work, to show up in the world the way that you exist, right?

[00:36:44] And so I would encourage folks to think about that.

[00:36:47] I want to go back to something that you said, Travell, about Black people being creative and generative on social media.

[00:36:55] And it's not controversial in our community, but it is something that causes controversy when you see the creative process of Black people, whether they have a large following or not, professional influence or not.

[00:37:11] But they give the world a word, a dance, a style, an outfit, whatever.

[00:37:20] And then that gets thrown into the algorithm and then the white influence are doing it.

[00:37:28] And so now the Black creativity is suppressed.

[00:37:30] And now all you see is, like, this cosplay of Black culture.

[00:37:35] And I think the same thing that I think, I know the same thing has happened with language, especially when you talk about Black queer language.

[00:37:43] How, if you ever watch America's Next Top Model, to your beginnings, Jared, everybody's running around talking about some fears or whatever, right?

[00:37:50] And all of these things.

[00:37:52] So then at what, I guess, harm do we as Black people incur knowing that our creativity and the way that we just behave in the world, speak, think, dress, dance, whatever, is always open to be monetized.

[00:38:13] And we may never monetarily benefit from it.

[00:38:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:21] With the big questions.

[00:38:24] But it's real, though, right?

[00:38:27] Like, that is what we're living through.

[00:38:30] That is what our ancestors lived through.

[00:38:32] It seems like it is an unfortunate byproduct of living in this white supremacist, capitalist, imperialist patriarchy, right?

[00:38:41] Shout out to Bale Hooks.

[00:38:43] And I think it can be a maddening experience for many of us to see the ways that other people benefit off of our brilliance and that our community or our ancestors are never afforded, at minimum, the credit for the creation.

[00:39:01] And then at maximum, the financial and material benefits of said creation.

[00:39:08] And I'll say for me, I take great joy out of knowing that even as they might steal it and even as they might figure out ways to materially benefit from it, it'll never hit the same coming from them.

[00:39:21] It'll never be authentic.

[00:39:23] It'll never rise the ancestors in the ways that us doing what we do and speaking and communicating in the ways that we do is a living manifestation of our lineage and our legacies.

[00:39:37] And it is a continual in practice giving flowers to the folks that came before us.

[00:39:45] And I also think that's one of the reasons why it was important for us to, with certain words, certain phrases in the book, have those pop culture moments and like say Peaches Monroe is the one who came up with On Fleek, right?

[00:39:58] Say in various different words that like this person's presence in pop culture is actually the jumpstart.

[00:40:05] To say that you might think that Nene Leakes or Candy Burris came up with this language because you watched The Real Housewives of Atlanta.

[00:40:13] But the reality is it might have been Carlos King, the gay executive producer, who introduced them to this language.

[00:40:19] It might have been their hairstylist, Miss Lawrence or Derek J, who introduced them to this language and how Derek J and Miss Lawrence have history within the ballroom scene, right?

[00:40:30] It was important for us to chart that path as a means of doing our best to give some credit and always being sure to speak those people's names that we do know who have contributed to our linguistic brilliance.

[00:40:45] Because there are so many names that we don't know, that we won't know, that have helped lead us on this particular path.

[00:40:52] Yeah. It's one of the things that I have to choose how I'm going to think about it today, specifically like to the question of like how black creativity is monetized and taken out of our hands and been able to become anything.

[00:41:09] And people being able to do whatever they want with it without attribution.

[00:41:14] And there are other days when I have to try and think of it in a positive lens and think about like how what an infinite resource we seem to be, right?

[00:41:22] Like what an infinite resource of creativity our just living is, right?

[00:41:27] When I look at just like our friends, right?

[00:41:31] The kind of community that Travelle and I have created or are a part of is full of such talented, smart, creative people.

[00:41:40] And like they are just a fraction of a fraction of what is the black queer creative community here in Los Angeles, which is just a fraction of a fraction, right?

[00:41:53] Of our brilliance that moves around the world, right?

[00:41:56] And so like there are days when I'm like, fuck these motherfuckers who are taking our shit, right?

[00:42:02] Like and mad at that and like angry about it and ready to, you know, shoot the club up, right?

[00:42:08] And then there are other days when I'm like, we are so amazing, right?

[00:42:13] Well, not literally shoot the club up, but you know.

[00:42:16] That has too many.

[00:42:17] It's also like, I'm going to say it also has a dual meaning and I never really use it in the way that I'm using it now, if you know what I mean.

[00:42:25] But that's not what we're discussing.

[00:42:26] And it's also not in the book.

[00:42:28] But like I have to be thoughtful about the ways that I address this thought.

[00:42:38] I love black people.

[00:42:39] All the way left.

[00:42:43] I love black people.

[00:42:45] I love us.

[00:42:45] I really do.

[00:42:46] I really do.

[00:42:47] For that moment alone.

[00:42:48] Can I also, listen, can I say this is interesting though?

[00:42:51] Because like we talk about what Travell and I both bring to this book and like our distinctions and how we're different, right?

[00:42:58] So I grew up in the Bay Area in Northern California.

[00:43:01] Travell grew up in Charleston, South Carolina.

[00:43:04] And we started having conversations about the ways that certain phrases in the book or certain things like, oh, that's not what that means.

[00:43:13] Or that's not how we use that, right?

[00:43:15] It might mean something similar.

[00:43:17] It's more verb.

[00:43:18] It's more of a noun.

[00:43:19] Oh, no, it's definitely an adjective in this kind of usage.

[00:43:21] But like, shoot the club up could like mean a bunch of different kinds of things.

[00:43:25] Listen, my God today.

[00:43:28] You know what?

[00:43:29] Oh, don't do me.

[00:43:31] I'm not going to even let you finish answering the question that was previous to this.

[00:43:34] We're done with that.

[00:43:38] The moment has passed.

[00:43:42] Okay.

[00:43:44] I want to go to a quick speed round before I let y'all go for the morning slash afternoon.

[00:43:49] What is your favorite book?

[00:43:52] Ooh, my favorite book of the moment is Dear Sin Thurman by Akweke Emezi.

[00:43:59] My favorite book for a long time has been The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

[00:44:03] Who is your favorite author?

[00:44:05] Oh, my favorite author.

[00:44:07] I'm probably going to go with Toni Morrison.

[00:44:10] The first book that I really just like fell in love with was Elin Harris' Any Way the Wind Blows.

[00:44:15] Yes, Elin Harris.

[00:44:17] Yes.

[00:44:18] Come on for a throwback.

[00:44:18] May he rest in peace.

[00:44:19] Amen.

[00:44:20] Yeah.

[00:44:21] What is your favorite song?

[00:44:23] Oh, my favorite song is I Believe by Fantasia.

[00:44:26] I also really enjoy Square Biz by Tina Marie.

[00:44:32] Yes, I am somebody's auntie.

[00:44:34] Okay.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:35] Yes.

[00:44:35] Absolutely are.

[00:44:36] I would say Energy on Renaissance is my favorite song right now.

[00:44:40] Okay.

[00:44:41] Good song.

[00:44:42] What do you think is the best book to movie or TV series adaptation?

[00:44:47] Ooh.

[00:44:48] Waiting to Exhale, I think, is a great example.

[00:44:51] The one I was going to say is this book called Love, Simon, which was made into a movie a number

[00:44:57] of years ago.

[00:44:58] It's like this Black, gay coming of age thing, but it has a white lead.

[00:45:01] So, you know, do with that information what you will.

[00:45:04] But I think it was a great book adaptation.

[00:45:06] Also, The Hate U Give.

[00:45:08] The adaptation of that book starring Amandla Stenberg was also really good.

[00:45:13] I think waiting to exhale was probably the answer for me.

[00:45:19] Okay.

[00:45:20] What brings you joy?

[00:45:21] Fried chicken and macaroni and cheese.

[00:45:24] Ooh, glory.

[00:45:26] Have your way, Holy Ghost.

[00:45:28] Shondo.

[00:45:30] Listen.

[00:45:32] Lately, freedom.

[00:45:34] So what does freedom look like, Mr. Hill?

[00:45:37] It varies from day to day, but like I sometimes freedom is putting my phone on do not disturb.

[00:45:44] Sometimes freedom is turning on my vacation responder on email.

[00:45:50] Sometimes freedom is my schedule having nothing in it.

[00:45:52] Sometimes freedom is saying no.

[00:45:55] Sometimes freedom is giving myself space to create and like to write or to think.

[00:46:02] Like right now, freedom has been like taking time to recipe test some brownies that I've

[00:46:08] been making, right?

[00:46:09] That's what freedom has been feeling like for me right now.

[00:46:12] Amen.

[00:46:13] And what brings you peace?

[00:46:15] Reality television.

[00:46:17] Brings you peace?

[00:46:18] It do bring me peace because you want to know why?

[00:46:21] Because I could be them and I'm not.

[00:46:27] And so I am at peace.

[00:46:31] Silly.

[00:46:32] Just silly.

[00:46:33] If there's a media related answer to that, I would say lately it's been like concert documentaries

[00:46:39] and really old television that no one would ever ask me to talk about on a show or write

[00:46:45] about or something like that.

[00:46:47] Like, so it doesn't feel like work, but like concert documentaries and really old television.

[00:46:52] Final question for you today.

[00:46:53] When you're dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about

[00:46:58] the legacy of words and work that you've left behind?

[00:47:02] Mm.

[00:47:03] I want people to say that I gave it my all, goddammit.

[00:47:07] No matter the results, because some of the results are great.

[00:47:10] Some of the results aren't great.

[00:47:12] You know, some of the progress that I think we are pushing towards with our work, some of

[00:47:19] it will be long-term progress.

[00:47:20] It'll be sustained and some of it won't be.

[00:47:22] And so for me, I want people to say that I gave it my all.

[00:47:28] I would want people to look back at my life and work and be inspired to try.

[00:47:36] Inspired to live their dream, whatever that is, even if it changes and grows and evolves.

[00:47:42] In the process of releasing this book, we've heard from a number of people and like that

[00:47:46] I haven't talked to in a number of years.

[00:47:48] And some of them have talked about being inspired by watching my career over the years.

[00:47:51] And that has started to resonate in me in a different kind of way than I could have expected.

[00:47:55] So I would hope that people were, everything that I've written in the world that I put

[00:48:00] out from here forward and in the past, I would hope that people were inspired to try and live

[00:48:05] their dreams.

[00:48:06] I hope you enjoyed this week's Black and Publish Rewind with Jared Hill and Travell Anderson.

[00:48:12] If you haven't read historically Black phrases and want to, you can get it from Mahogany Books,

[00:48:17] where you can find a wide range of titles by Black authors and support a Black-owned business.

[00:48:24] Plus, listeners of this podcast can save 10% on regular price books and merchandise when

[00:48:30] you use the code BLACKPUB at checkout.

[00:48:32] That's B-L-K-P-U-B.

[00:48:36] Head over to mahoganybooks.com and grab your next great read today.

[00:48:41] I'll holla at y'all next week for another Black and Publish blast from the past.

[00:48:45] Peace.

[00:48:48] Peace.

[00:48:49] Peace.