Be Loud with Arriel Vinson

[00:00:00] I was mixing with everything except for my book. But by 2020, it felt more attainable to me by then because I had a friend who had done this. I needed to see the proof of the path, I think, before I could really take it seriously. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black & Published on the Mahogany Books Podcast Network.

[00:00:21] Bringing you the journeys of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Arielle Vinson, author of the YA romance novel Under the Neon Lights. It's a story that sets the budding love between Jalen and Trey against a backdrop of their shifting community landscape and Jalen's fight to maintain her safe place.

[00:00:43] That seems to be the reality of Blackness in America. We have to create our own spaces and then they get destroyed and then we have to create it again and again. We get overwhelmed. Sometimes we think that it doesn't matter what we do. It's not going to work. If the things we did weren't useful, they wouldn't be trying to get rid of so many of the things that help us understand who we are and where we came from. Be loud.

[00:01:07] In urging readers to be loud, as cultural American Blackness faces systematic erasure from this authoritarian administration, Arielle also encourages people to not grow discouraged. The reason she says grounding this book in her own good memories helped her explore the harm of encroaching whiteness. Plus, how she believes the oral storytelling tradition can save us in this time of book bans and attacks on libraries, archives, universities and museums.

[00:01:36] And the reason she says she wasn't really a big fan of poetry, even though she wrote her debut novel in verse. That and more is next when Black and Published continues. Arielle, when did you know that you were a writer? I think that is so difficult to answer. I always wrote when I was a kid stories, poems.

[00:02:05] I don't think they were poems back then. I think they were raps. And so I really am not even going to go into that. And then I went to high school and it was a magnet school. So it was for the arts and humanities. I took a journalism class. I was on the newspaper. I was on the yearbook. I became editor in chief. But I never liked poetry. I never liked it. And I think it's because of what we were taught in school.

[00:02:33] Other than Langston Hughes and Maya Angelou were never black. The poets were never alive. And so it was not for me. But I continued to write stories. I went to college and I was supposed to be taking notes in my apparel merchandising classes. That was my minor. And instead I'm writing fiction stories. So at some point I was like, I should take that seriously. I should learn more about why I continue writing these stories.

[00:03:01] I want to come back to the, I didn't like poetry part of it. Because your novel is in verse. Yes. Ma'am. That is true. Make it make sense. So when did you fall in love outside of the kiddie wraps that you were writing? When did you fall in love with poetry? You know, it's funny because my mom got me show Silverstein's Where the Sidewalk In.

[00:03:29] And I loved it. But I don't think I put two and two together that that was poetry at that age. I just was like, these are little funny stories. I still have it somewhere. But I read those all the time. And then in high school we had an assignment where we had to bring in a poem that we really enjoyed. And I found some Deaf Poetry Jam had spoken word poems on YouTube. And so I had come across that somehow.

[00:03:58] And I think I might have saw the poem in a forum, like written in some chat forum first. And then I found the poet on YouTube. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good. If this is what poetry can be, then maybe I can write something like this. And from there, I think once I got to college, I took a lecture with a session of workshops. And my professor was so cool. And she really just pushed me to keep writing. Like I had to write poetry in this class. And I was like, girl, listen, I don't like this.

[00:04:27] And she was like, just try it. Just try it. Just do the prompt. Just try it. So she would leave me notes. And I was like, well, how do I do this? How do I do that? And so I kind of had to start reading poetry. And I had to find things outside of what was being taught in class. But also she kind of gave me people to read. And from there, I found the URSA Daily Word. I found all of these different poets that just were not available to me when I was younger.

[00:04:55] Let's talk about creating a curriculum that worked for you. Because so often writers, they talk specifically about their MFA programs. But I think it's just as important in undergraduate where if you are not given work that you can connect to in any way, that you then begin to think it's not a path for you. Right, right.

[00:05:18] What did it do for you, for your teacher to not only encourage you, but then to point you in the direction of poets you could relate to and who could be a guiding light on your own writing journey? Yeah, it told me I could take creative writing seriously and that it could be a career path. It made me think, okay, maybe writing is practical. I think when you go into, especially as a journalist, you go into undergrad and you're told you won't make any money.

[00:05:46] You're here to tell the story. Your hours are going to be terrible, blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, well, I could minor in creative writing, but why would I do that? And major in journalism. And then where's the practical career? I think having those people, having those poets to look at and even having a teaching poet tell me that this is what I could be. And if I just push here, then I can do these different things.

[00:06:16] And then I went to New York for a journalism internship. It was summer 2016. I'll never forget it. It was the summer of my life. But I went to New Yurican Poets Cafe. I happened to run into Joshua Bennett at a bar. Like there's so many ways that I was able to keep kind of connecting these dots and continuing to make myself a curriculum because I realized that journalism was not it for me. And so then what did you do from there?

[00:06:46] I took another fiction workshop my senior year. And I have a friend, Leah Johnson, who's also a Kimby. And she was like, yeah, I'm headed to grad school for an MFA. And I was like, girl, what is that? And so she tells me all about it. And I was like, all right, I'm going to think about that because I don't want to graduate and be a journalist. So I took that fiction workshop. I still loved it. And I applied to grad programs, got into a few, didn't get into the other few.

[00:07:14] And from there, that summer, too, I was working part time at a library and I was reading. So you actively escaped the journalism career that I did not. Oh, and here we are. And you're asking the questions. Right. Like putting that degree to use. Yeah, I was a double major journalism, creative writing. We got there.

[00:07:40] So as you were escaping, and I know you went through your MFA program, you ended up in publishing. What was that trajectory like, even though you wanted to write? Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I look back at my most recent full time job and I'm like, they could see right through me. They knew I didn't want to be there. I just wanted to write the book. But I gained so much from working in publishing.

[00:08:07] So basically, when I went to my MFA program, I was at Sarah Lawrence College in Brunsfield, New York. And I was like, okay, I'm in New York for two years. I have to do every single thing I can to see what I want to do after this. It's either job or bust. So I, oh my gosh, I did so much. I worked for the program. I worked for the president's office. I taught writing workshops in a jail. I volunteered for the literary journal on campus.

[00:08:35] I tried just about everything I could because I wanted to know what I was most interested in. I got an internship at a big five, one of the summers of my grad program. And that was fine, but it was in sales. And I was like, I don't, I'm good at sales because I'm convincing, but that's about it. It's not fun. Um, but from there I got a fellowship at Poets and Writers.

[00:08:59] And that was basically their readings and workshops program where we found writers to be like, hey, if you're doing a reading, we can pay you for it. Like this work doesn't have to be free. And so from there I was like, oh, maybe I'll be in the literary nonprofit world. So I got my first full time job there. Shout out to Poets and Writers. Loved the job. Didn't make any money. So I was like, okay, now what's next? Pandemic hits. I'm still in New York.

[00:09:26] And from there I get a job at an indie press. I was there for two years and then I went to big five again and I was there for two years. So I don't know that I ever pictured me always working in publishing. I kind of had a lofty idea that I would like teach poetry and that would be it. But teaching poetry does not. It can pay the bills, but it depends on where you're teaching it. And I like to teach the youth.

[00:09:51] So then and all this time and all this doing in the literary world around it adjacent to it across the hall upstairs from it in sales. So were you always working on what became Under the Neon Lights? I started Under the Neon Lights the summer before my second year of my MFA. And so as I was a fellow at Poets and Writers, I was writing on my lunch break. I'd like go out.

[00:10:20] We were in the financial district in New York. So I'd go out to the water and I would just hurry up, you know, try to write, try to eat a sandwich. When it was cold, I would go to this atrium on Wall Street and write. I worked on it for so long. This actually, that is the longest I've ever worked on something in my life. But through every single job, including my last one at McMillan, I worked on Under the Neon Lights.

[00:10:45] What was it that took you so long to get it to a point where you could go out and query agents and then go on submission? I gotta be honest. I wasn't prioritizing the writing. It was an adjustment coming from an MFA program, coming from a space where I'm always writing, I'm always reading to, okay, I have to go to work. And then I have to get on the train in New York and I have to go home. And then I have three roommates who also have to eat dinner.

[00:11:14] So who knows what time I'm eating dinner? And then I have to do this and then I have to do it. And so, but also, it was, I was in finally in New York, which is where I had wanted to be since 2016. So I was having a ball. I'm going to brunch. I'm meeting new friends. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. I'm going to the event. Outside. I was outside. Like I was the definition of outside. My friend who lives in New York is from New York. He used to call me mixy. And I was like, what is mixy?

[00:11:43] He said, you're always in the mix. Um, so I was, I was mixy. I was mixing with everything except for my book. But by 2020, we had gone remote and I was like, it's now or never, girl. It's now or never. If we're going to get serious, we have to get serious now. And it felt more attainable to me by then because I had a friend Leah, who had done this, who had gotten the book deal, whose book was about to come out.

[00:12:07] And so, in the same way as we were talking about that professor who kind of gave me that path, I needed to see the proof of the path, I think, before I could really take it seriously. So you got sat down in the pandemic. Sat down, honey. And I was terrified too. So I was not going anywhere. Right. So like you got sat down and you got serious. How long was it until you had what you thought was a passable drive to start looking for an agent?

[00:12:37] I'm going to say end of 2021. I felt like, okay, this is something. I had finished the second or third draft by the end of 2020. But it was such a different book back then. Like, at first, it was a book about protesting in the community because the book is about gentrification. And it became a book about building community despite gentrification. So it had so many shifts, but by 2021, I think I was getting at that a bit more.

[00:13:05] And I was like, all right, 2022, we got to get on it. And so by October, November of 2022, I finally had an agent. So then what is your publishing process been like? Because even as you talk about how the arc of the book changed in your own mind as you were drafting, the final product, like the gentrification and the protest in the community, it's still there. But it's not the whole book. No, no.

[00:13:31] So, girl, what happened in the publishing process with your agent and your editor that we got YA romance protest gentrification novel now? Right, right. I'm good. I'll tell you, Trey, the love interest, Trey was always there. I love Trey down. He was always there. And I think it's funny because up until, I don't know, earlier this year, I was telling my editors, this is not a romance. It's not a romance. Don't market it as a romance. It's a romance.

[00:14:00] You know, like it's a romance. And I know that, you know, I was just, I think in denial, which is interesting because I find love and writing about love to be so powerful. But I was like, I don't want the gentrification and the community building to get buried. And so I didn't want us to come in like, oh, it's a romance. And then maybe I haven't followed all the rules of what a romance is supposed to be. And now I'm getting ate up online and now people are like, wait a minute, it's not a romance.

[00:14:30] But this is a romance. I wrote this book using Save the Cat Writes a Novel and using Romancing the Beat. So it's a romance. But I think in the editing process, both with my agent and with my editors, I have two editors. One of my editors is a romance girl. And she's like, listen, he's there. They're there. This is a great relationship. We got to bump up the romance. Where's the swoon? And I was like, dear Alyssa, she has a great love life. The character in the book.

[00:15:00] Me, not so much. So I have to use a lot of imagination to get here. But she's great at romance. And so I feel like she was able to help me understand what I wanted this romance to look like, while also helping me understand what the other relationships in the book should look like, and how they should all kind of like be on equal footing. Very much so. And you know, from the way it's set up. Okay, well, this is the meet cute, right? Yeah.

[00:15:28] So it's going to have a happily ever after there's going to be the miscommunication trope or whatever the case may be. But because there's so much happening in the background of these two young teens lives, and just what they're going through from what you were weaving in about the community, and it being gentrified and taken over that it's not just the tension of the relationship as it would be maybe in an adult romance novel, which I was very grateful for. Because I was like, I like reading about these kids and they're in love.

[00:15:56] But then you know, they're also going through some things right. It was great. And crafting that story and bumping up the swoon parts of it, but not relaxing on what you were trying to get across about community. How do you feel now that it's about to come out and you have romance in the real world?

[00:16:16] I think this couldn't be a better time for it to come out, especially as we're talking about what our world looks like right now and tariffs and all these things. Because much like 2020, when I was working on this really heavily, we have to continue to find ways to build community that maybe we hadn't before. I feel like maybe in 2020, 2021, even 2022, we were really serious about it.

[00:16:43] And perhaps we got a little lax, but I think now we have to be so serious about it. And I think we also have to be serious about how we show up in love, how we show up in community, how we show up in just all the parts of the world that we're in. And so I think it's perfect that right now I can have a book come out where teens can read it and say, wow, look at this love story.

[00:17:07] It's an escape, but it also helps us remember how we can show up for ourselves or show up for people who can't show up for themselves. I think it's a good demonstration of that for teens and for adults. You know, I think as I'm posting about Under the Neon Lights, I'm paying a lot of attention to the community portion. But I think the love is just as important here. So then with that said, can you read something from the novel? Of course.

[00:17:37] Under the Neon Lights by Arielle Vincent is a YA romance novel about Jalen and Trey. They meet at Jalen's favorite place, the skating rink West Side Roll. But just as they're getting to know each other, they learn West Side Roll is shutting down due to rising rents that come with gentrification. Under threat, Jalen makes it her mission to save the rink, even if it's for just one more roll around the wood. Here's Arielle.

[00:18:03] So I'm going to read a little bit from chapter one. School just ended and the sticky summer humidity brings us to West Side Roll, only a five minute drive from home. The skating rink is our place every Saturday night. Me, my bestie Noel, every skater here, whip around the wood fast and furious like we're racing for our lives. We shake our sorrows loose, shed them like snakeskin.

[00:18:32] We're too loud, young, black for other places in Indianapolis. So we're here, where neon lights, tent lockers and white tees brighten the confetti print carpet. We roll around as our toes go numb, as our calves throb from dancing and bending to the beat. Sometimes we get into shit. Sometimes we fall in love. Sometimes we fall out. But none of that stops us from moving ourselves on the slick floor till all the lights come up.

[00:19:02] Till our parents text us to get our asses in the car. I slide onto the skate floor with the flow of traffic, weaving in and out of the thick crowd to avoid collision. Noel skates by my side, fanning herself with her hand. The buttery scent of popcorn and nacho cheese mixed with socks and sweat fills the rink. DJ Sonny, an old head, is in his booth in the middle of the rink floor, spinning a rap song that begins every Saturday night.

[00:19:32] Bouncing as I skate, my feet follow the beat, wheels slapping the mahogany. I love spotting the skate crews, Naptown rollers, nap skates, west side riders, then their matching tees, skate names on the back, social handles underneath carefully laid out like an infographic. Ron, the cameraman, records the post later, showcasing our skills for skaters from other cities to convene in the comments.

[00:19:59] Noah and I, past couples backpacking, past girls our age, 16 and stumbling like it's the first time their feet have donned the tan suede rental skates. Past the regulars, Mook and Leilani, the couple of Napt Skate's crew. Tiana, the best skater my age who doesn't miss a Saturday night. Tiana's mama, Julia, a Westside Riders member who could be co-owner with how often she's here.

[00:20:26] Mr. Kareem, an old head who teaches us smoother ways to glide, float, soar. Miss Charlene, a Naptown roller with the longest nail, wildest footwork, and best burgers at Steak and Shake Monday through Wednesday. Some of them know me from when I've jumped into their routine, trying to learn something different from what my parents taught me. No purses or bags while skating, y'all, DJ Sonny announces over the mic. The song he spins makes me want to fly.

[00:20:56] I leave no for a second because she don't skate as fast as me. Our skate styles as different as we are. Where her movements are quiet, a gentle sway or subtle snap, minor intricate, arms out, reaching for something bigger than me, footwork too complex to copy. Outside of the skate floor, I'm the quiet one. Outside of the skate floor, no shine.

[00:21:21] She tries new things, flirts with a crush, attempts to drag me to unfamiliar places, and almost always, I tell her I'd rather stay in with my soothing R&B. I'm going to link with Kayla and Ashley, Nose says before skating off. I don't get to ask where or if I should come along.

[00:21:39] I watch her sway past the glittering disco balls, the metallic fringe streamers hanging from the ceiling, the neon light shining green on her light skin, until she's off the rink floor and onto the carpet, blending with the crowd. It's been this way since she made the dance team, her kind of detached, me kind of alone. Um, BJ Sonny gets on the mic with recycled lines I savor. How y'all feeling tonight?

[00:22:06] The lights flicker on above the rink floor, remove us from the shadows. We gonna get a rockin'. Remember, if you don't have skates on, you cannot be on the rink floor. If you want to be in, go by the locker. If you don't want to turn up at West Side Roll, go home. We shout the last bit with him, echoing the mantra that makes us family. As much as I love skating with no shoulder to shoulder while we scope out cute guys, I also love skating alone.

[00:22:36] Just me, eyes closed, little hips swinging, mouth wide, singing loudly. Even though the rink is always noisy, skaters shouting, singing, counting for a routine, jumping into a spin. In your zone, you can't hear none of it. So here I am in the middle of the skate floor, hoping to sweat out everything I've pent up inside. I spin to a mid-tempo song I can get lost in.

[00:23:04] Wrap myself around each note like a weighted blanket. My father taught me this before he became someone I could no longer love loudly. I spread my arms wide, then bring them close for balance. He taught me how to close myself off from love. Spin, spin, spin. I am a tornado tearing through the rink. I throw my arms back, out, sharp and straight, doing a 360 spin.

[00:23:33] He taught me how to turn away quickly, how to avoid being still, being stuck. Saying, as my feet glide across the sleek floor, I close my eyes, hum the melody, let it take over, let it take over, let it take over. Then a body slams into me, knocks me down. I'm riving, trying to get up. And that's the hardest part about falling in the first place.

[00:24:02] Thank you. Thank you. So in that chapter, you kind of begin to lay out some of the conflicts of the novel. And just in the section that you read, a rift brewing between Jalen and her best friend, Noel. Her absence of a father. And then this boy. We don't know it's a boy at this section, but this boy who knocks her down mid-skate.

[00:24:29] When I was reading the novel, and especially that opening scene, it's so familiar. I'm from Chicago, so we had a big skate culture with the rink and Route 66 were the two major skating places. So reading the intro felt like home. And then, you know, they're 16, so there's lots of teenage angst and the clickishness that girls can do. And then the cute guys trying to see who's there.

[00:24:51] When you were writing this opening, was it always to make the reader feel a sense of perhaps groundedness in this world that you were about to take them through, even if it was unfamiliar to them? Yes. Yeah. I really love what the skating rink feels like. And I needed, because this book really follows Black skating rink culture, I needed the reader to be like, okay, so there's something called Skate Cruise.

[00:25:19] Okay, so there's a DJ and he's shouting on the mic. Okay, people can dance, but they can't be on the rink floor. I needed them to know this because even though the skating rink closes due to gentrification, there are a few more scenes at the rink where the reader needs to understand like, okay, this is the vibe. It's kind of, there's a kind of mentorship here, but also on certain days, you know, it's just the team hanging out, acting a fool.

[00:25:46] And I wanted readers to remember those feelings at the rink and remember what it feels like to fall and remember what it feels like to be kind of discovering the fun of it for the first time. I think the last time I skated might have been 2008-ish, 2009-ish. Yeah, it's been a minute, right? Yeah.

[00:26:07] But again, you conjuring those memories and putting them in the opening scenes of the book and in some of the other pockets where they are in the rink is so familiar. Was this book truly born out of a love of your own memories of skating? It was. So back in sixth grade, seventh grade, my friends and I, this is so embarrassing, we used to get on like Microsoft Word and we would type out in those like weird prompts.

[00:26:37] They used to have, I don't know if they still have them, girls night. But the girls night is just we're going to the skating rink together and we would like print it out and pass it out to our friends at school. I love that! And we would go and it's like, it's funny because I have memory boxes. So it's just like movie tickets, old cards, things like that. And I think I still have that somewhere. But I was always at the skating rink. My mom would drop us off and someone else's mom would pick us up.

[00:27:07] And that is where I had my first crush. That is where I would go with my best friends. And it was really where I learned that, okay, I like skating. I like, you know, dancing out there with everyone else. But I was the friend who was always on the rink floor. And everyone else was like, hey girl! I was like rolling fast.

[00:27:29] I think what I didn't include though was there were fights and other things happening that I didn't include in this book because I wanted it to be a safe space. But I tried to include some details like the police presence and some of the security stuff there because part of what made a lot of us kind of distance ourselves from the skating rink is some of the violence that happened there. And our parents are like, absolutely not. You're not going back.

[00:27:56] But so once I finally visited again as an adult, I'm like, it still feels the same. It's still as fun. It doesn't have as much wonder, but it's still a good time. You kind of allude to some of those other elements of the skating rink and skating rink culture that, you know, the parking lots are going to always be full. The guys are going to have their rims. They're going to be on the hydraulics. It's going to be the smell of weed, smoke in the air. Bites may break out. It might be some shots every now and again.

[00:28:25] Like you allude to those elements. And then you don't say it explicitly in the novel. But I find from my own upbringing around the skating rink, but then also where there were big places where teens would congregate, that the police presence would be increased.

[00:28:44] And then as the neighborhood started to change with gentrification, there would be a rush to remove those once safe spaces for teens because you didn't want to upset the new neighbors. And talking about that shifting landscape and under the neon lights where eventually the skating rink West Side Row is going to be shut down, were you trying to mirror some of the changes in the landscape from where you're from? Absolutely.

[00:29:13] Thankfully, my skating rink is still open. It did have a change of management as I got older. But even now, like a few weeks ago, I saw a video of a whole bunch of teens fighting at the rink. And I was like, nah. You know, sometimes nothing changes. And they did end up changing some rules. Like I've been trying to do a skate party for the book. And even looking at the times the sessions start now, they just start much earlier and they end much earlier.

[00:29:41] And so Under the Neon Lights does really mirror that increased police presence look like for us when we were skating. And the worry that everyone had, including the skaters, the parents, et cetera. We did not have many places to go in Indy. We had the mall. We had the skating rink. We had the movie theater. And in the summer, there were a few water parks that we would go to. But other than that, that was it.

[00:30:07] Even as an adult, all of the spaces that I've been in that don't particularly like the crowd, quote unquote, and we'll have something at a bar or a venue or event space. And it'll last for a few weeks. And then the DJ is like, hey, they don't want us there anymore. So we're trying to find something else. And I think that seems to be the reality of Blackness in America. We have to create our own spaces and then they get destroyed.

[00:30:36] And then we have to create it again and again. And so you talk about that in the novel, like this encroaching whiteness and what that looks like. It always starts with like white joggers and their dogs. Always. It's like, you know, your neighborhood's about to be gentrified when you see the white people running and they got their running strollers and their dogs. The stroller takes me out every time. It's the running stroller and it's the dog. Sometimes on a leash, sometimes not. Right.

[00:31:06] Right. And so it's the increasing encroachment and then also the surveillance. And then now the prices are going up. The rents are going up. And as you just said, there are no more safe places. So in enshrining your neighborhood in a safe place in this novel, it almost is like a time capsule. Because we don't know if they're going to exist much longer.

[00:31:33] And so in talking about trying to keep Blackness in safe places, where do you see those safe places becoming outside of our own memories? Oh, that's a really sad question. You know, I don't know that I have the answer. I do think that Black people always find a way to create new and to keep ourselves as safe as we can.

[00:32:02] But I think it's a constant transition for us. We are constantly transitioning from one space to the other, from one area to the other. And there are so many times where the tradition of oral storytelling is all we have left. So I think really the only way for us to keep those spaces is in memory and is in telling each other and sharing that and not losing that history. Especially right now, where history is getting cut everywhere.

[00:32:32] We have to continue to communicate with not just, you know, our families, but younger generations. And letting them know, like, what's going on and how to stay strong and find ways to continue to keep the community. But I think a lot of it is we have to do so much in secret to stay in community. And it's not fair, but it is what sustains those spaces.

[00:32:57] The reason I ask you that question is because outside of our own memories, the archives, the artifacts, all of those things are literally being banned. The National Museum of African American History and Culture is under threat of not only just whitewashing, but actual closure. Like they're trying to take 250 some odd artifacts about slavery in the American South out of a museum that is preserving Black history.

[00:33:24] Library libraries are always under the threat of closure. Is there under the threat of getting their funding revoked or have already gotten their funding revoked? Ivy League universities, as well as state schools, and I'm sure HBCUs, which don't get a lot of federal funding, are next, right? And so, you know, we've all seen the impact and the popularity of book bands.

[00:33:46] And so even though this novel is YA and it shouldn't be on the radar of, you know, the Moms for Liberty groups, you know, the fact that you're talking about gentrification and lack of community and talking about organizing and protests, those are the topics that are being removed from school shelves. And yet you set this story on the backs of these teenagers who are having to grow up and deal with this angst.

[00:34:14] Do you have a specific message to young teens today who are living through their curriculums being changed, who may grow up not knowing the true stories or the real history of what's happening in their own community, let alone what has happened to their own people throughout the history of this country? Yeah, of course. I have a lot. I have a lot for the teens. I have a lot for the kids.

[00:34:35] I, first of all, think that we all should be talking to our families more, whether that's your found family or biological families. Let's learn. Let's ask questions because that is where we get those stories. That is how I learned about Riverside Park and all of these other places in Indiana that just did not welcome Black people.

[00:34:57] And I also think that even though so many things are getting banned, especially curriculum-wise, we still have access to so much. And there are so many resources that are like, hey, look at these banned books. Hey, I'm not under threat in the same way as that maybe libraries are. I'm a bookstagrammer. So here are books you can read.

[00:35:15] So I would definitely suggest if you're on BookTok, Bookstagram, any of those things, follow educators, follow readers, follow people who are hoping to get these stories out widely. And lastly, don't lose your voice. There are always going to be threats, especially toward Black people in our history and our spaces. But sometimes I think we get overwhelmed. We get overwhelmed.

[00:35:44] Sometimes we think that it doesn't matter what we do. It's not going to work. But if the things we did weren't useful, they wouldn't be trying to cut everything anyway. They wouldn't be trying to cut funding. They wouldn't be trying to get rid of so many of the things that help us understand who we are and where we came from. Be loud. I think, you know, and under the neon light, my epigraph is about becoming loud. I'll read it really quickly. So for my family who taught me to be loud and for the Black girls who are still figuring out how to be,

[00:36:13] I want our teens to be loud. I want us to understand that, yes, there is risk to that, but also understand that loud can look like a lot of different things. Loud can look like the protest. Loud can look like writing to the reps. Loud can look like building community, finding spaces, making friends, keeping people close, contributing to mutual aid. It can look like so many things. And I just don't want us to get discouraged because once we get discouraged, they win.

[00:36:43] You talk about the importance of being loud. And I would argue that this book is an entry into the canon of Black women being loud with their art. But as much as it is necessary to be loud, it is also necessary to rest and to care for yourself. How are you doing that for yourself as you prepare to release a book and do all the things to promote and get it out into the hands that need it the most,

[00:37:09] knowing that you're talking about these charged subjects and watching the destruction of the foundations of what we thought was equality in this country? I don't know that I'm resting enough. I think if I'm not pitching the book or, you know, talking to my team about, hey, what's going on here? Can we do this? Oh, they need this from me. Then I'm talking about the book some other way.

[00:37:39] I'm outside with this little QR code telling people to order the book. But I think I am taking things one day at a time. As I see things, some days I'm like, okay, I'm going to screenshot that. I'll come back to it tomorrow. Okay, I'm going to reshare this because I want people to see it, because I want people to contribute to think about it. But I today am going to rest. Or some days I'm like, this is a no work day. That means no work, no email, no reading, no podcast, no anything.

[00:38:07] I'm saying I'm trying the no work day and I'm trying to watch some TV. I love yoga. So I have found a class that is for BIPOC. It's a heated class. The music is usually R&B. And I find that to be a really rejuvenating space. So I'm trying to find ways to rest alongside other Black people. I don't know that I'm doing a beautiful job of resting, but I do know that I can only control so much,

[00:38:35] both with the book and with the world. And so I'm pouring more into having faith and hope because I think it's exhausting to feel dread all the time. So I'm trying my best to lead with that and then go into my day. Thank you. Yeah, of course. So I want to switch to a speed round and a little game before I let you go for the afternoon. Love a game. Speed round first. What is your favorite book?

[00:39:04] Another Brooklyn by Jacqueline Woodson. She ate that one down. Who was your favorite author? I'm going to give it to Jacqueline Woodson once again, but I will also say Leah Johnson. Who was your favorite poet? I'm going to say, ooh, ooh, Hanif Abdur-Aqib. Name a poet you think more people should know about. Shayna Phoenix. Phoenix is spelled P-H-E-N-I-X.

[00:39:29] We went to grad school together and then she went and studied under Nikki Giovanni. She writes about Black womanhood. She is very interested in studying lineage and talking about what it means to be a Black woman who inherited some trauma. She's great with form. She's also great with pre-verse. Her first collection is iconic. So Shayna Phoenix.

[00:39:55] What's the difference if you think there is a difference between poetry and spoken word? I don't know that there's a difference. I think some poems have a performance element. I think performance poetry or slam poetry has some elements of musicality that not all poems do on the page. But I think a good poet can make the poem sound great, whether they're performing it or whether there's no one there to read it at all.

[00:40:23] What is your favorite song? Right now? I'm going to say Cleo's Soul, When I'm in Your Arms. What do you think is the best book to movie or book to series adaptation?

[00:41:07] What's your favorite song? Okay. So then if Under the Neon Lights gets the screen treatment, who would you want to play Jalen and Trey? One of my friends said Marce Martin for Jalen. And I was like, that's a good one. For Trey, I don't know for Trey. I can always cast an adult romance book. But teen romances, I feel like, are harder. Yeah. All right. If money were no object, where would you go?

[00:41:36] What would you do? And where would you live? If money was no object, me and my entire family would be out of here. Where would we go? I think I would love to be in the Caribbean. I'm about to go to St. Martin in the summer. And I hear that's a friendly island. So I'm excited to see what that's like. But I always want to be in a place where the food is good and the Black people are plenty. That part.

[00:42:08] Name three things on your bucket list. Skydiving. Good morning, America. For one of my books, whether it's this one or another one. I want to do a year of trips. Like a backpacking, but not backpacking. I think that would be really fun. Just to be somewhere else for an extended amount of time. Because one thing about me, I'm ready to come home. So. What brings you joy? Being with my friends and family brings me a lot of joy.

[00:42:37] Just being able to just do nothing together brings me an immense amount of joy. Sitting in the house with my snacks and my TV shows, not being bothered, low light. That brings me so much joy. And I think being able to help people, whether that's my family or someone else, that brings me a lot of joy because I come from a family that we didn't have much.

[00:43:08] And so when I can take care of myself and take care of others without a struggle, that really brings me joy. And what brings you peace? Yoga. When I'm ready to go off, it's time to go to yoga. But also I'm finding more peace in what I mentioned earlier, that hope and faith kind of. I'm finding more peace in knowing that I have worked as hard as I can. I'm doing the best I can, but I can only control so much.

[00:43:36] When I remind myself of that, it brings me some peace to be like, you know what? You did a good job today, girl. Let's sit down. And what is your favorite sound? I like the sound of silence. I'm on the fourth floor of my building. And so sometimes I can hear a very loud train. But other times it's just kind of like the wind rustling and going. So I'll open the balcony door and it's just like, it's just kind of going. Our game is called Rewriting the Classics.

[00:44:05] Classic is however you define it. Okay. Name one book you wish you would have written. It's a great guest. And I say that because there's some stuff in there we got to fix. I know it's like a classic that we read, or we read it at least in high school. There's some stuff in there I think we got to fix. Okay. Now name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it?

[00:44:31] I need a better look at my bookshelf to change the ending. Could I tell you? This is not your question, but could I tell you a TV show that I would change the ending? Sure. Insecure. Issa Rae. I would have changed Lawrence and Issa. Not because I don't think that they grew. And I think the point was to show up that they had grown. But I wanted to see Issa just erase all of that and like start anew. So I think that would have been a powerful ending. I feel you. All right.

[00:45:02] We drifted. We're going to bring it back to books. Name a book that you think is overrated or overtaught or overtaught. That's an out and why? 1948 by George Orwell, I believe. 1984. 1984, but it was written in 1948. There we go. I was like, hold on. I was like, hold on.

[00:45:25] Because I really, I think so many books have done something similar now and are teaching similar things that are perhaps not. One thing about me, I'm going to tell y'all, we have everything that y'all writing, but in black. So can we do that? Can we have a book that shows similar themes, but is black by box? Like it's still, I don't know. I think Shakespeare is overtaught too.

[00:45:54] My final question for you today. When you're dead and gone and among the ancestors, what would you like someone to write about the legacy of words and work that you left behind? And you know what? Let me write that down. It's my living little one testament. Here's what you should say. I want to be remembered for writing books for black girls who come from the same place I come from, which is the word.

[00:46:21] I want to be remembered for empowering black girls, empowering black teens in general, to have a voice, empowering them to find the power in love and empowering them to explore life outside of, you know, just their little bubble. I want to be remembered for being very lyrical. Hopefully I'm making that happen. And if not, I will grow to make that happen.

[00:46:45] But so by the end times, but by my end times, I am trying to be one of the best young adults and poets that people know of. By the time I'm out of here, I need to be a household name. So that's what I would like to be written. And I will be adding that to my last living will. Big thank you to Ariel Vincent for being here today on Black & Published. You can follow Ariel on the socials at AriWrites on Instagram and threads.

[00:47:16] And make sure you check out Under the Neon Lights, out now from Putnam. And you can get a copy of a novel from Mahogany Books and get 10% off your first purchase using code BLACKPUB at checkout. That's B-L-K-P-U-B. That's our show for the week. If you liked this episode and want more Black & Published, head to our Instagram page. It's at Black & Published, and that's B-L-K & Published.

[00:47:45] There, I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Ariel about what didn't make it into the book about unwelcome spaces in Indianapolis. Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments. I'll holler at y'all next week when our guest will be W.J. Lofton, author of the poetry collection Boy Maybe. It is always our work to challenge our erasure.

[00:48:11] It is always the work of writers to point toward the forces that say you don't belong, you are not human, that seek to divide us. And we also see all of the policies that this administration, they're implementing to sanction artists, our institutions. Because when we see the rise of fascism, we always see that writers and artists are always censored.

[00:48:40] They come for us first. That's next week on Black & Published. I'll talk to you then. Peace. What's going on, family? This is Derek Young. And Ramonda Young. Owners of both Mahogany Books and the Mahogany Books Podcast Network. We really want to thank each and every one of you for listening to this episode. And if you enjoyed what you just heard, drop us a review and rate us on whatever platform

[00:49:09] you download podcasts on. We truly appreciate each and every one of you for supporting us and making us your go-to for Black books. And we look forward to connecting with you all sometime in the future. Thank you again, fam. And always remember, Black Books Matter.