Answering the Call with Kim Johnson

[00:00:00] When I think about bearing witness and how can we engage in the larger conversation that's

[00:00:07] happening in our world to be in a space of bettering our world, I feel like I'm supposed

[00:00:14] to do this work through literature.

[00:00:17] What's good?

[00:00:18] I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published, bringing you the journeys

[00:00:24] of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds.

[00:00:29] Today's guest is Kim Johnson, author of the YA novel Invisible Son.

[00:00:36] While the novel is set during the height of the COVID pandemic in 2020, Kim said her goal

[00:00:42] was to make sure she balanced the trauma of that year with its triumphs as well.

[00:00:47] When you write about difficult topics that I tend to write about, it's really easy

[00:00:53] for non-Black readers to only think about the dark situation.

[00:01:00] It's their porn that they're looking at that attracts them.

[00:01:05] The trauma is the pain, is the one story on teaching and all these kinds of things.

[00:01:11] And so it's so important to me when I write my story that I have the whole breath

[00:01:18] of the Black experience.

[00:01:20] Kim readily admits that she came to writing late in life.

[00:01:25] She explains the feeling of being woken up out of her sleep to pursue a dream she never

[00:01:30] knew she had.

[00:01:32] Plus, how she used the specificity of niceness in the Pacific Northwest to infuse a more

[00:01:38] sinister plot into her novel.

[00:01:41] And, how she really feels about being an author whose book is banned.

[00:01:47] And more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:50] All right, so Kim, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:58] Yeah, you know I came to writing late in life.

[00:02:02] I'm 44 now and I started writing at 32.

[00:02:07] And it wasn't until I wrote the first draft of my first novel that I've ever

[00:02:12] written that will never see the light of day that I finally claimed the identity

[00:02:18] of a writer.

[00:02:19] But it was something that I completely avoided even being someone with a I have

[00:02:23] a college degree, master's degree.

[00:02:26] But it was something that I felt like an imposter about that it wasn't my skill.

[00:02:31] It wasn't my thing.

[00:02:32] Why did you feel that way?

[00:02:33] That it wasn't something that you could do?

[00:02:35] I had a misconception of what being a writer was.

[00:02:40] In my head, it was always the people who got A's on their papers and they wrote it.

[00:02:48] They wrote it that first draft and it was perfect.

[00:02:51] And I never actually understood the process of revisions and what revisions do.

[00:02:56] And it was something that anytime I had a paper, I would have so much stress

[00:03:01] and I'd worry so much about grammar.

[00:03:03] And I felt like I needed to know how to explain like what's an adjective.

[00:03:07] And all these things about the mechanics of grammar and because I wasn't able to

[00:03:12] quickly articulate it, I just really had this sense that I just wasn't was an

[00:03:17] a strong writer.

[00:03:18] And so it was a skill I never really worked to develop.

[00:03:22] And it wasn't until I actually became a writer and had the identity of a writer

[00:03:27] that I'm constantly been working on my writing and developing it as as a strength.

[00:03:34] So what inspired you to want to write, even though you didn't have the necessary

[00:03:42] confidence, it was seemed to say, you know what?

[00:03:44] I'm going to write a book.

[00:03:45] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:47] I have always been a storyteller.

[00:03:50] I just I never thought of it as writing.

[00:03:54] I've always been someone who would orally tell a story or communicate in that way.

[00:04:00] In my head, I was always telling stories.

[00:04:04] I was always daydreaming.

[00:04:05] I was a huge reader growing up where I read stacks and stacks of books, breaking

[00:04:10] down the story when I watch a movie or a show and breaking down the plots.

[00:04:15] I'm I'm rewriting what I felt like should have happened.

[00:04:19] And I woke up one day and I had a very, very vivid dream.

[00:04:24] And I saw it as a movie actually.

[00:04:26] That's how I really saw it.

[00:04:28] And then I got up and just told my husband that I wanted to go to the coffee shop

[00:04:33] and like start writing.

[00:04:35] And he was like, you just try to try to try to get away from the baby because I had.

[00:04:41] I mean, we had a we had a one and a half two year old, you know, little little guy.

[00:04:47] And I'm like, yeah, I need a break.

[00:04:49] But but also but also.

[00:04:52] And I started writing it down.

[00:04:54] And once I started writing it down, I loved the process of creating.

[00:04:58] And I had to I had to push through all of that sort of imposter syndrome

[00:05:02] because I wanted to create and I wanted to see it on the page.

[00:05:06] OK, so then you said that novel will never see the light of day.

[00:05:12] But what was next?

[00:05:14] Was that this is my America?

[00:05:16] No. So I spent two years working on that first novel.

[00:05:21] And then realizing I wanted to get published.

[00:05:24] And I sent it off to a bunch of literary agents

[00:05:27] and was getting lots of different rejections.

[00:05:29] But I was learning about pacing and writing a query letter.

[00:05:33] And finally, I was like, well, if I want to be a writer,

[00:05:36] but then I had the identity of wanting to be a writer.

[00:05:39] I'm like, I have to write more than one book.

[00:05:41] And so I had another idea and I started writing and it was faster.

[00:05:46] I immediately started getting query pickups from from agents.

[00:05:52] And I hadn't quite nailed that sort of agent scenario.

[00:05:56] And they went through a process of revision.

[00:05:57] But during the time of having my my second book really drafted and done

[00:06:02] and sharing it with folks, there was a lot going on in the world

[00:06:06] especially around 2014, 2015.

[00:06:10] And I felt like I knew what my voice was.

[00:06:13] Like it took me that third book to realize who am I as a storyteller?

[00:06:18] How can I put all the pieces of my identity,

[00:06:21] my professional work that I do, the activism that I do and putting it in a story?

[00:06:26] And I started just writing.

[00:06:29] This is my America and about halfway through writing that draft,

[00:06:35] not even halfway through writing that draft,

[00:06:36] they had an agent reach out to me about my second book

[00:06:39] and wanted to go through a revision process with me.

[00:06:43] And we got on a call and I shared my excitement about, you know,

[00:06:47] the thoughts that she had.

[00:06:48] But I also told her I was like, I'm being called right now

[00:06:51] to write this other book and I don't want to touch anything else

[00:06:55] until I'm actually done with this book.

[00:06:57] And then she was like, send it to me and I'm like, it's a mess.

[00:07:02] And she's like, send it to me.

[00:07:03] I really liked your second.

[00:07:04] I love to see what you're writing is with your third.

[00:07:06] And two weeks later, she offered.

[00:07:08] OK, I love this story because it's so like I like telling stories.

[00:07:13] I'm not really a writer.

[00:07:14] I'm going to try it anyway.

[00:07:16] And then the relentlessness of you practicing

[00:07:22] and honing the craft and learning and then incorporating all that

[00:07:26] you were doing and then it paying off in a big way.

[00:07:31] Were you always writing YA novels or novels for teens and stuff?

[00:07:36] You know, I had stopped reading for a really long time.

[00:07:40] I was always reading nonfiction.

[00:07:41] But nonfiction has always been especially as an adult after college,

[00:07:46] continuing to read lots of nonfiction.

[00:07:48] But I dipped into reading fiction through young adult

[00:07:52] because young adult at like that 2010, 2011

[00:07:55] time period was getting really big and it just seemed much more accessible.

[00:07:59] And I love that space and especially because I work my other wife hat

[00:08:04] that I wear is I've been an administrator for a long time in higher ed.

[00:08:07] So I'm always mentoring college students and working with college students.

[00:08:11] And so it just really is a space that I've enjoyed writing

[00:08:15] because I'm around so many young people who are hopeful

[00:08:18] and want to make change and do all these things that a lot of my books explore.

[00:08:24] So then would this is my America be coming your debut

[00:08:29] and you getting the agent for that book?

[00:08:31] What was your publishing process like for that?

[00:08:33] And then was it the two book deal to do this is my America

[00:08:37] and Invisible Son, which is now out?

[00:08:39] Yeah, so I did get a two book deal, but it actually was for my third book

[00:08:44] that is coming out.

[00:08:46] So I had sold the novel and they said

[00:08:50] this next standalone that they would want to buy that we might second book deal

[00:08:54] and the publishing process for this is my America.

[00:08:59] After I got the agent, I actually spent a year finishing the novel,

[00:09:03] having my agent read it, giving me feedback

[00:09:07] and then sort of going on these rounds of polishing.

[00:09:09] So that took about a year.

[00:09:11] And then when we were ready to go out on submission, I was ready.

[00:09:14] My agent was like another round.

[00:09:16] I was like, no, we ready.

[00:09:20] We ready, we ready.

[00:09:21] And she was like, OK, let's do a test batch.

[00:09:24] And so she sent it out to about a handful of editors and two weeks.

[00:09:29] I had a fast story, so two weeks into the submission process.

[00:09:33] I had one editor that said, I would love it.

[00:09:35] I'd love to do are in our with you.

[00:09:38] And then I said, well, let's wait to hear what else we be here from editors.

[00:09:44] And then another week later, I had an offer.

[00:09:46] And so my publishing process, you know, I have that long wait

[00:09:50] of like many, many years of like working to get it done.

[00:09:53] But once I hit that sort of like ready set go button, it moved pretty quickly.

[00:09:58] And so when I when I published my book, I was working on The Color of the Live,

[00:10:03] which is my second novel, which is a historical thriller.

[00:10:05] And this was all during the pandemic.

[00:10:07] And I finished that draft, I sent it to my editor

[00:10:11] and she was working on feedback and now she's working on feedback for me.

[00:10:15] I I was called again.

[00:10:17] I feel like a lot of my writing is about like bearing witness

[00:10:21] and a story really sort of sticking with me.

[00:10:24] And the idea for Invisible Sun came to me and it felt so present.

[00:10:27] It felt so urgent that I let my editor know that like I also, you know,

[00:10:33] I know that we're still like finalizing that other book that I'm sending.

[00:10:37] But I'd love to have you look at this proposal for this other book

[00:10:41] because I'm, you know, I really feel like this is also like worthy you buy.

[00:10:45] You know, and so I sent it to her and she loved it and was like, you're right.

[00:10:51] Because I told her I was like, I think this should be my second book.

[00:10:53] And she's like, you're right, this this is.

[00:10:55] And so that delayed my book coming out.

[00:10:59] And so that's why now my third book is coming out so quickly after my second

[00:11:03] because I have that one done and sort of ready to go already.

[00:11:08] OK, so I just want to get the timeline.

[00:11:10] Straight, the timeline.

[00:11:12] So it's it's the book that you had the dream about

[00:11:15] that you went to the coffee shops or right while you were getting away from the baby

[00:11:19] that is the color of the lie that's going to be your.

[00:11:22] No. So that book I wrote is like in a closet somewhere.

[00:11:26] The second one is in the closet somewhere.

[00:11:28] Yeah. Yeah. The first and the second.

[00:11:30] I don't know where they are.

[00:11:32] So it's two books in the closet.

[00:11:34] This is my America, the color of the lie, which is coming out third

[00:11:38] and then Invisible Sun, which came out second, which we're talking about today.

[00:11:42] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:44] You say forty four now you started at thirty two.

[00:11:47] So in twelve years, you've cranked out five novels

[00:11:50] and are on your way to publishing three.

[00:11:52] Congratulations. Thank you.

[00:11:55] Thank you.

[00:11:57] What do you think it is about being

[00:12:01] called to write a book and answering?

[00:12:05] Because I think a lot of people may be called to tell a story,

[00:12:09] but don't necessarily answer. Why do you answer?

[00:12:12] I've always been a person who has leaned in

[00:12:16] and had discernment about what is right for me

[00:12:20] and making decisions that I feel are within my purpose

[00:12:24] and my values and what I want to sort of come out of life.

[00:12:28] And so a lot of that I think drives in by writing is that a lot of people would say,

[00:12:34] like you've never written before, like, why are you like so dogged about

[00:12:38] like you keep getting rejections?

[00:12:41] Why are you so dogged about this thing that you still don't seem as confident?

[00:12:45] And I think it's because I just really felt like it was for me

[00:12:50] and there was a reason that I was doing it.

[00:12:51] And it's cathartic for me, especially when I write about,

[00:12:55] you know, I think for me when I think about bearing witness

[00:13:00] and how can we engage in the larger conversation

[00:13:04] that's happening in our world to be in a space of bettering our world.

[00:13:09] I think of about being an educator and thinking about young people

[00:13:14] and writing to me has been the answer from,

[00:13:18] which is different than my earlier life or my earlier life

[00:13:21] was being in organizations and activism and those kinds of things.

[00:13:24] And I think those spaces are super incredibly important.

[00:13:29] And I feel like I'm supposed to do this work through through literature.

[00:13:35] All right, so since we're here, let's go ahead and get to the reading.

[00:13:38] You read a little bit from Invisible Son and then we can talk about

[00:13:42] Andre and his friends across the street.

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:46] Kim Johnson's novel, Invisible Son, centers Andre Jackson,

[00:13:51] a teenage black boy recently released from Juvie for a crime he is adamant.

[00:13:56] He did not commit back home, living through a pandemic and eager to clear his name.

[00:14:02] Andre tries to lean on his friends, family and neighbors for help.

[00:14:07] But soon finds he can't trust everyone, even those who come to his aid.

[00:14:12] Here's Kim.

[00:14:13] I think I'll read from the first chapter.

[00:14:15] All of my titles are song titles from the 90s and early 2000s,

[00:14:22] which is connected to the theme within the book of an interest that Andre has.

[00:14:25] So the first chapter is Don't Speak, February 27th, 2020.

[00:14:31] I live in the widest big city on the blackest block,

[00:14:34] simultaneously seen and unseen.

[00:14:37] I used to hate the erasure, but now well now I don't mind if I stay hidden,

[00:14:42] especially since McLaren Youth Correctional Facility is my literal rear view.

[00:14:46] But the longer we idle in Portland traffic, the more reality sinks in that

[00:14:50] that's not how any of this works.

[00:14:52] Marcus tries to bury this truth of conversations on moving forward on

[00:14:56] possibilities, but it will be as hard to shake the strike against me as it is

[00:15:00] for the windshield wipers to win their battle against this torrential downpour.

[00:15:04] Marcus is in my coexistence and this car proves that fact.

[00:15:07] There will always be somebody to check me, to explain myself to,

[00:15:11] to keep at a distance, which makes who I run with matter more than ever.

[00:15:16] And I don't mean my boy, Booby, who knows I'm more likely to be up late

[00:15:20] reading Octavia Butler scouring through my collection of Black Panther comics

[00:15:23] than be hanging out.

[00:15:25] I mean my other so-called friends, correction, white friends who've been

[00:15:29] known to mouth off to an office of without fear.

[00:15:31] You don't think twice about trying to be anything they want.

[00:15:34] Meanwhile, I'm not trying to be nothing at all.

[00:15:37] Music plays a really big role in this novel from the song titles for every

[00:15:42] chapter to Andre and his friend being YouTubers and, you know,

[00:15:48] doing their first listens of old songs from the 90s and the early 2000s

[00:15:53] and given their reactions.

[00:15:55] In balancing every day, teenage Black life and angst with this young man

[00:16:03] being home on house arrest, basically under surveillance,

[00:16:07] trying to find out why he was framed for a crime he didn't commit,

[00:16:12] as well as the pandemic and school.

[00:16:15] You talk about being called to write this novel.

[00:16:18] Was all of that in your mind in the calling?

[00:16:21] Because it's a lot.

[00:16:24] My brain is a lot.

[00:16:26] And I just have these big things that I think about.

[00:16:30] And I think the reason why so many of my stories in this story in

[00:16:33] particular have so many pieces is that within my daily work that I

[00:16:39] have and the mentorship that I'm connected to is I mentor a lot of

[00:16:44] young Black leaders and young Black students.

[00:16:47] And I'm in a space where there's lots of advising and counseling,

[00:16:50] but I'm an administrator.

[00:16:52] So my connection with a lot of students now is in a space of

[00:16:55] mentorship.

[00:16:56] And the people that I'm mentoring are experiencing all of these things.

[00:17:02] They're experiencing life situations, they're experiencing family situations.

[00:17:06] They're trying to navigate how they're going to make decisions and

[00:17:10] how to take action in their life.

[00:17:12] And they are having breakups and they were experiencing the pandemic.

[00:17:16] And so when I was wanting to write this story, it came from a lot

[00:17:20] of those places of like, especially when we think about writing Black

[00:17:24] characters, oftentimes when you write about difficult topics that I

[00:17:29] tend to write about, it's really easy for non-Black readers to only

[00:17:36] think about the dark situation.

[00:17:39] Sort of like it's their point that they're sort of like looking at

[00:17:43] that attracts them is the trauma, is the pain, is the, they want

[00:17:48] a story on teaching and all these kinds of things.

[00:17:50] And so it's so important to me when I write my stories, that

[00:17:54] I have the whole sort of like breath of the Black experience, which

[00:18:00] when we're dealing with hard things, your friend might try to make you laugh.

[00:18:04] You know, you speak for those moments of joy in some of our darkest moments.

[00:18:08] And so having those really came to me and I'll say, you know,

[00:18:13] the story did come to me in a space, actually a moment of joy.

[00:18:17] And it was in the summer of 2020 and I was outside in the sun on my

[00:18:21] phone in my backyard because, you know, we couldn't go anywhere.

[00:18:24] So that was like my daily thing as I was doing my sunbathing.

[00:18:27] And I was watching these two twins, twins, trends, who were doing YouTube

[00:18:34] first time reaction videos.

[00:18:36] And it gave me a joy every day seeing the new video that they would upload.

[00:18:40] And I was watching them listen to Phil Collins in the air tonight.

[00:18:45] And I was waiting for that like minute and 40 second beat drop for their

[00:18:50] reaction because they would bring, they had so much joy.

[00:18:55] And that's like where the story came to me is like in my head, I saw a bridge

[00:18:59] in the rain in Portland rain coming down a large protest that was occurring

[00:19:05] and that music.

[00:19:06] Like I see it like a movie often.

[00:19:08] I see it like a movie and that song playing.

[00:19:10] And so I'm like, what would cause that person to get on that bridge?

[00:19:14] And I think about my students, like why were they so isolated?

[00:19:17] And then they were protesting in the name of George Floyd, Black Lives Matter,

[00:19:22] Ahmad Aubrey, Breonna Taylor.

[00:19:24] And I really started to think about Portland and how so many people don't

[00:19:28] know about the history of Portland and the fight that black Portlanders

[00:19:33] are going through and sort of the awakening that was happening in their

[00:19:38] city and how Portland became a national space that people were looking at

[00:19:44] for Floyd's protest.

[00:19:45] But the experiences of black Portlanders were not being told.

[00:19:50] And so that's really how my whole story came to me and wanted to tell a

[00:19:55] story and why it was so important to me to have the joy in the story

[00:20:00] and having Andre have a thing that brought him joy and tied it to the

[00:20:04] rest of the story because I experienced all of those things.

[00:20:08] You know, yeah.

[00:20:10] I do remember that video of the twins and listening to In The Air tonight.

[00:20:14] I think everybody who was familiar with the song was waiting for that beat drop

[00:20:18] for their mouths to drop like all of it.

[00:20:20] Because which is why we love that song.

[00:20:22] Like the beginning is fine.

[00:20:24] But when the beat drop, it's like, oh, we're doing something different now.

[00:20:27] Yeah.

[00:20:29] I want to touch on what you said about, you know, the history of

[00:20:33] Portland and black Portland and really touching on the gentrification

[00:20:36] and how that affects communities and erodes community and culture.

[00:20:41] Because you started in your reading saying, I live in the widest big city

[00:20:44] on the blackest block.

[00:20:45] And then on page 255, you go even deeper and say, when you're talking

[00:20:51] about all the families that have left, it says, all replaced by nice white

[00:20:54] families and black lives matter signs.

[00:20:56] My throat aches from seeing the city with more black lives matter

[00:20:59] signs than black people.

[00:21:02] And in the novel, not only is Dre seeing the changes in his neighborhood,

[00:21:09] he's experiencing them with how he's treated from having to wear the ankle

[00:21:14] monitor, what he's been accused of dealing with harassment from the police

[00:21:20] and even from neighbors all while trying to clear his name amongst his friends

[00:21:26] and his family members so that they're not disappointed in him.

[00:21:30] So I got to ask about the family across the street.

[00:21:33] First of all, were you always curious about interracial adoption

[00:21:41] and how those families work to make that such a central part of the story

[00:21:46] and to explore the dynamics between the children and the adults

[00:21:50] and the cultural backgrounds that can keep not only parents, but people

[00:21:54] in general from really understanding and having empathy for people

[00:21:58] who are different from them?

[00:22:00] Yeah, you know, Oregon is a really interesting place.

[00:22:03] It's really known to be very liberal and I have a white liberalness associated

[00:22:08] with it. People call the area Pacific Northwest nice.

[00:22:13] So there's sort of like niceness to what can be oftentimes microaggressions.

[00:22:18] So, you know, me growing up in Oregon and knowing Oregonians,

[00:22:23] there actually is a higher transracial adoptions that occur

[00:22:27] with white families adopting black children.

[00:22:31] I actually had a lot of friends who were trans-racially adopted

[00:22:34] where they had a white parent and they were not a white child.

[00:22:38] And the range of those experiences were all over the place.

[00:22:42] I think, you know, most of them are all really nice people

[00:22:46] like they were caring.

[00:22:47] I mean, they, you know, were treating their child well in all these things.

[00:22:51] But there is a space of not knowing how to do certain things.

[00:22:55] So there's not in some areas, there's not really a strong black community.

[00:22:59] So then their connection to blackness is so separated that it's so difficult

[00:23:03] to develop your own identity and a space of not being

[00:23:08] or being in all white schools, all white parents.

[00:23:11] And then maybe your parents will celebrate Kwanzaa with you.

[00:23:14] And majority of black people I know don't actually celebrate Kwanzaa.

[00:23:18] So it's like choices of blackness, of like where you sort of celebrate blackness.

[00:23:22] And it wasn't my sense of sort of trying to pick on a family

[00:23:27] and say that this is a bad thing.

[00:23:29] Because I, you know, I will not speak for those that have

[00:23:32] that are in those circumstances.

[00:23:34] And I've read a lot about the experiences of trans-racial adoptee advocates

[00:23:40] and who speak on sort of decision points and how families choose.

[00:23:45] But it represented Oregon to me in a really heavy way.

[00:23:49] It also was a part of me bearing witness to a trans-racial adopted family

[00:23:53] in Portland that occurred.

[00:23:55] And so I don't want to sort of say too much because it sort of leaks into the story.

[00:23:59] But I really wanted to speak on race and to speak on race in Oregon,

[00:24:04] being the one of only and the experience of folks who

[00:24:10] who maybe make the assumption that because they're in this sort of diverse

[00:24:15] family that they can't have a hold of racism in them.

[00:24:19] So for me, that was really important to be able to show a dynamic.

[00:24:23] And because the story set in a pandemic, because it's isolated,

[00:24:27] I also felt like having this sort of trans-racial adopted family experience

[00:24:32] where the children in the family, there's two black children,

[00:24:36] two white children who are biologically from the parents

[00:24:40] and then one Latina child can show the dynamic of race

[00:24:44] and the interaction of race and the discussion of race in a way that

[00:24:49] when you were telling a normal story where there's not a pandemic

[00:24:52] and not so isolated experience, you'd be able to sort of mirror

[00:24:56] some of those conversations.

[00:24:57] And I also I love to sort of challenge those conversations

[00:25:01] of how do you approach them and how do people grow?

[00:25:05] How do you be in this sort of ongoing process of that?

[00:25:08] And how do you call out things that are incredibly problematic

[00:25:11] and sometimes tragic?

[00:25:14] When I think of trans-racial adoption, I think my only reference points

[00:25:18] really are the tragedy of the Hart family in California as well.

[00:25:23] And then on the other end is this is us with Randall, right?

[00:25:28] And that character.

[00:25:31] So to see it rendered here in a different way, even

[00:25:34] hearkening to some things that were happening in Oregon for real

[00:25:38] was just really interesting to me.

[00:25:40] But in touching all of these different dynamics and how you

[00:25:45] address liberal niceness, which is not necessarily progressive or anti-racist,

[00:25:52] it's just niceness as well as the carceral system

[00:25:57] and the precariousness of the lives of young black men.

[00:26:02] You're writing this bearing witness at a time when no one really wants

[00:26:07] you to do that anymore.

[00:26:09] You've already had one book banned with your first novel being banned.

[00:26:13] And so now this is out.

[00:26:15] I haven't seen anything about Invisible Son being banned, but,

[00:26:18] you know, let's knock on wood about that.

[00:26:21] What has it been like to know that

[00:26:25] your calling to bear witness to these pieces and facets of life

[00:26:31] are being actively silenced?

[00:26:33] So many of us authors who have been fighting to be published

[00:26:39] that are queer, BIPOC, able, disabled,

[00:26:43] the sort of varying experiences

[00:26:46] are going through it really hard.

[00:26:48] And for me, it really is difficult because I experienced

[00:26:53] book one and book two really differently,

[00:26:55] because even though my first book is challenged, very visible

[00:26:59] banned in certain states or school, school districts

[00:27:04] and libraries and that kind of thing.

[00:27:07] It did reach because it came out in 20, it came out July 2020

[00:27:12] right when everyone was buying these books, right?

[00:27:15] And so it reached wide.

[00:27:17] So people still were able to read it

[00:27:19] and I've been able to talk about my work a lot.

[00:27:22] And so that felt very purposeful.

[00:27:24] Like even in the face of fighting,

[00:27:27] I was able to get my story out.

[00:27:30] It is tiring talking about like because people,

[00:27:34] you know, you have some readers who want all the answers

[00:27:36] and expect because you've written this book

[00:27:38] that you are going to resolve all elements of Grace,

[00:27:42] the carousel estate, all of these, all of the things

[00:27:45] that I didn't create at all.

[00:27:49] And that can be exhausting.

[00:27:51] But with book two, what's really interesting

[00:27:53] is because I do call out the falseness,

[00:27:58] the emptiness in, you know, having Black Lives Matter

[00:28:02] signs that actually no substance to it.

[00:28:05] You know, Andre and his story has his dad

[00:28:08] owns a black owned bookstore in Portland.

[00:28:11] And I show examples of the falseness of people

[00:28:13] purchasing these books that they know good well,

[00:28:15] that they're not going to read.

[00:28:17] And having this sort of expectation that a small business

[00:28:20] is going to be able to act like they're, you know,

[00:28:23] the Zon that they're going to be these sort of big box places.

[00:28:27] And I really wrote this book because

[00:28:31] people want to move on from the pandemic

[00:28:34] and having been familiar with being trauma informed

[00:28:40] and especially racially trauma informed,

[00:28:42] you can't move past things.

[00:28:45] You have if you want to heal, you actually have to process it.

[00:28:49] And so many people still have yet to process

[00:28:52] what they experience in 2020.

[00:28:54] And so how I feel about this book that's different than my first book

[00:28:59] is that it's much quieter.

[00:29:01] There's not as in terms of like people's response to it.

[00:29:05] It didn't reach as widely as the other works.

[00:29:09] But I also feel the reason why I wrote this book

[00:29:12] was that so that it would be evergreen and 10, 20, 30 years from now,

[00:29:18] I wanted this to be in the history books.

[00:29:20] Like I wanted it to be something that would not be forgotten

[00:29:24] and that when people are ready to process

[00:29:26] and ready to kind of think about these different experiences

[00:29:30] from the angle that I took, that it will be it will be there.

[00:29:34] But it is hard knowing that because your work is banned,

[00:29:38] I think some people think, oh, that's great.

[00:29:40] You're going to like people going to buy a bunch of your books.

[00:29:43] No, it hurts readers.

[00:29:44] It hurts young people.

[00:29:47] And most, you know, there's probably only a handful of folks

[00:29:52] that are on these ban lists that benefit any.

[00:29:56] And I say benefit from a superficial perspective.

[00:29:59] I actually don't see it as a true benefit,

[00:30:01] but like the people will pick up and buy

[00:30:05] because the engine, the publishing engine, the stores know,

[00:30:09] oh, wait, people know about these five books.

[00:30:11] So let's put it out front and then people feel like again,

[00:30:14] very empty, like I'm going to buy that book,

[00:30:17] but are you going to read it?

[00:30:18] You know, and so most, most authors don't benefit in any kind of way.

[00:30:23] And overall, it hurts readers.

[00:30:24] So yeah, as a writer and a writer who writes in the space

[00:30:28] that I do with the sort of mindset that I have,

[00:30:33] I am really trying to balance how do I care for myself

[00:30:35] and how do I build out a career

[00:30:38] that can give me the space and time to be able to do what I'm doing.

[00:30:43] And why I was thinking about my work in a lot of different ways

[00:30:47] and not sort of like putting myself in a corner where I only write

[00:30:51] certain kind of things in a certain kind of way,

[00:30:53] because that's what it suspected of me.

[00:30:55] I don't want that either.

[00:30:56] And so I am in this as I think about

[00:30:59] what I want my fourth published book to be.

[00:31:02] I am thinking about how can I sort of maybe approach things

[00:31:05] even a little bit differently than I've done just for my own care

[00:31:09] and balancing out the kinds of things that I talk about

[00:31:13] because it can get pretty heavy.

[00:31:15] In talking about caring for yourself

[00:31:18] because you write about such deep and heavy topics,

[00:31:21] one, are you OK?

[00:31:25] Like, thank you.

[00:31:26] Are you OK?

[00:31:28] And then two, do you ever think you may write for adults?

[00:31:31] I'm doing great.

[00:31:32] It is cathartic for me getting my story out

[00:31:37] and like working through my feelings and reading articles

[00:31:41] and in, you know, the vitriol that we hear about

[00:31:45] and how powerless often we feel because like the same things keep happening.

[00:31:51] Writing about it like helps let out a lot of that frustration.

[00:31:56] And so it is helpful.

[00:31:58] But then I always have to find other kinds of joy too.

[00:32:01] And my kids are that my family is that for me,

[00:32:05] for sure, watching reality TV and

[00:32:10] things that, you know, can kind of like balance out the heaviness.

[00:32:15] So I am.

[00:32:16] And I know that there's a lot of a lot of writers who approach things differently.

[00:32:19] And I think I approach my writing like I do my reading.

[00:32:22] I don't lean in on escaping.

[00:32:25] So the people who love like they love a fantasy

[00:32:29] because they want to be taken out of the world and they want to imagine

[00:32:31] a whole new world or sci-fi or, you know, those kinds of things

[00:32:35] or period pieces, you know, romantic and they just, you know,

[00:32:39] people want to do different things.

[00:32:42] And I lean into like what's happening in the real world.

[00:32:45] And and that's why I write.

[00:32:47] And so I think that's why I'm able to balance things a little bit

[00:32:50] because it is the thing that I seek.

[00:32:52] I'm not trying to go into a different kind of world, per se.

[00:32:56] So and then I would love to write something for adults.

[00:32:59] It's definitely something that I talk with my agent about

[00:33:02] and just need more like time and capacity to explore it.

[00:33:07] But I have a couple of concepts that I've sort of been kind of playing around,

[00:33:11] but haven't haven't written my proposals and worked on worked on that piece yet.

[00:33:15] So OK.

[00:33:17] So I want to switch to a speed round in a game before I let you go for.

[00:33:20] Oh no, I'm the work of this.

[00:33:22] It's all right.

[00:33:23] It comes out in the editing.

[00:33:25] What is your favorite book?

[00:33:27] In terms of why I actually I really, really love

[00:33:30] Airis Arlandonte Discover the Secrets of the Universe by Benjamin Adios.

[00:33:34] I just I love that book.

[00:33:36] I didn't know what to expect and I love that in any kind of story telling

[00:33:42] when I don't know what to expect.

[00:33:43] And then it like drives all these emotions and I'm like crying like a baby.

[00:33:48] Reading a story.

[00:33:49] Who's your favorite author?

[00:33:51] Jesmyn Ward.

[00:33:54] Yeah, Jesmyn Ward.

[00:33:55] I love she's such a visceral her her words are so

[00:33:59] just visceral and evocative and I love her.

[00:34:02] I love her story.

[00:34:04] I I pray for her because she's been through so much.

[00:34:08] And yeah, I just I want her to win.

[00:34:11] I want her to run. Yeah.

[00:34:14] Since your book has so much music in it, what is your favorite song?

[00:34:18] I love Lauren Hill and I love her album.

[00:34:22] And I've been to her concert and you go help go in a whole controversy

[00:34:26] over going to Lauren Hill concert, which we will not.

[00:34:28] We will not talk about the recent post on the Shade Room.

[00:34:31] We will not talk about it.

[00:34:32] Lauren yelling at the audience.

[00:34:34] We will she was yelling.

[00:34:35] Yeah, she sure was late to the concert.

[00:34:37] I went to two, but that's OK.

[00:34:38] I expected that, but I didn't have to leave because it was like by then

[00:34:41] it was 2 a.m. and I was tired.

[00:34:43] But.

[00:34:46] But I still I still love.

[00:34:48] I love her whole album, this educational for her.

[00:34:50] Hill, I think just the whole album.

[00:34:52] My favorite song is her her rendition of singing killing me softly.

[00:34:57] Like that's just my favorite.

[00:34:58] I could play a million times.

[00:35:00] That's the Foogees.

[00:35:01] Oh, Lauren. OK.

[00:35:04] What do you think is the best book to movie or television series adaptation?

[00:35:09] I I've never really been a fan of the adaptation, even though

[00:35:14] please buy my book and make it into a series.

[00:35:21] And prove me wrong.

[00:35:22] Prove me wrong.

[00:35:24] I love that.

[00:35:26] Oh, God, I've never been a fan.

[00:35:28] I just I think I love the book because they just they bring more to it.

[00:35:33] I will what's yours?

[00:35:34] I'm so curious.

[00:35:36] Oh, do I have one?

[00:35:37] I want to say it's the color purple, but I don't think that's it.

[00:35:42] That was a good one, though.

[00:35:44] Actually, I love Little Fires Everywhere.

[00:35:49] Yes, that damn book and show.

[00:35:52] My God.

[00:35:53] You know what? You're right.

[00:35:54] You're right, because I actually and maybe because I watched.

[00:35:59] No, I read it first.

[00:36:00] I read it first.

[00:36:01] They did such a good job.

[00:36:03] And because I made it a limited series.

[00:36:06] I think I think that's why I really liked it because it really built.

[00:36:10] But they did.

[00:36:11] They did. They did a really good job.

[00:36:12] They love Celeste Celeste, as a writer.

[00:36:15] I love her work.

[00:36:16] Like that. That took me out.

[00:36:19] It was good.

[00:36:20] That was so well done. Yeah, you're right.

[00:36:22] Yeah.

[00:36:22] That was that. That took me out.

[00:36:24] That's my answer from now on.

[00:36:25] OK.

[00:36:28] Name three things on your bucket list.

[00:36:31] Travel the world.

[00:36:32] Learning another language and getting off the grid for like a month.

[00:36:37] No phone, no internet.

[00:36:39] Going walk into a local market that like is a stand.

[00:36:43] It's like it's like it's pulling the bananas from the tree.

[00:36:49] You're just like.

[00:36:52] Yeah, doing that.

[00:36:54] Those would be my three.

[00:36:55] Yeah.

[00:36:56] What brings you joy?

[00:36:57] I'll laughter.

[00:36:58] I mean, I just I love to laugh,

[00:37:01] especially when things are darned like doing something that just makes me laugh,

[00:37:05] which might be like my daughter reading me jokes.

[00:37:08] And what brings you peace?

[00:37:10] Meditation lately.

[00:37:11] Meditation has been really helpful in like calming the mind.

[00:37:17] And my answer before the meditation would have been like chocolate.

[00:37:23] Why not both?

[00:37:24] Why not both?

[00:37:25] Chocolate.

[00:37:25] Why not both?

[00:37:26] Yeah, but if I think like philosophically,

[00:37:29] what gives me peace is that I do believe in humanity,

[00:37:33] even in its darkest moments.

[00:37:35] And that's sort of like how the meditation actually helps them

[00:37:39] grow on me to be able to like truly continue to believe in that.

[00:37:43] All right.

[00:37:43] And then my final question for you today.

[00:37:47] When you're dead and gone and among the ancestors,

[00:37:49] what is one thing you would like someone to write about the legacy of work

[00:37:54] and words that you left behind?

[00:37:56] Oh, I love this.

[00:37:58] I do think about legacy all the time because I think about

[00:38:01] I actually say this a lot about what do I want my literary legacy to be?

[00:38:05] And I hope that what they write about something I haven't even imagined

[00:38:10] that I've been able to accomplish and how you can transform your life

[00:38:16] in really magical ways in ways that you couldn't have imagined.

[00:38:19] And that would be my story is that it isn't just me going from 32 to 44,

[00:38:25] you know, learning how to write.

[00:38:27] But like then I transformed into something I couldn't have imagined.

[00:38:32] So yeah.

[00:38:34] Big thank you to Kim Johnson for being here today on Black and Published.

[00:38:37] Make sure you check out Kim's latest novel, Invisible Son,

[00:38:42] out now from Penguin Random House

[00:38:45] and if you're not following Kim, check her out on the socials.

[00:38:49] She's at Casey Johnson writes on Instagram.

[00:38:54] That's our show for the week.

[00:38:56] If you like this episode and want more black and published,

[00:39:00] head to our Instagram page.

[00:39:02] It's at Black and Published.

[00:39:04] And that's B L K and published there.

[00:39:09] I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Kim

[00:39:12] about the original title for her novel and how she settled on Invisible Son.

[00:39:18] Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:39:22] I'll highlight you all next week when our guests will be Tracy Rose Payton,

[00:39:27] author of the novel Night Wherever We Go.

[00:39:29] I remember I had first started to do like writing residencies

[00:39:32] and do the whole thing and I had a really like a couple of kind bosses

[00:39:35] who really let me like take a month off and go do your writing residency.

[00:39:39] And of course, I didn't tell my coworkers where I was going

[00:39:41] because that doesn't make any sense to people.

[00:39:43] And so I just said, oh, I'm just taking, you know, taking time off of a block

[00:39:46] and co-worker of mine.

[00:39:48] It said that when I came back, everyone thought I was a reggae.

[00:39:51] That's next week on Black and Published.

[00:39:53] I'll talk to you then. Peace.