A Measure of Forgiveness with Jennifer Baker

[00:00:00] If you would ask me that on 2020, what's on your bingo card? It wouldn't have been a pandemic and it wouldn't have been selling my book at two weeks. What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published. Bring a youth of journeys of writers, poets, playwrights, and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest is Jennifer Baker, author of the YA novel, Forgive Me Not. A story that centers the life, loves, and struggles of a teenage

[00:00:30] Black girl to explore the pitfalls and failures of mass incarceration and carceral systems writ large. There are like really bad crimes, and there are other things that are crimes that I don't necessarily agree with for this day as crimes. You know what I mean? There are things that people just need and things that people do and I believe in accountability but I don't know that the carceral system is accountability.

[00:00:55] If Jen Baker's name sounds familiar to you, it's because she's a living legend who has always done the work to help people navigate the industry as either writer or publishing professional.

[00:01:09] In our conversation, Jen explains how she stayed motivated to continue writing while working for years in the industry she was trying to break into as a creative. Plus, the reality show that sparked the idea for her novel.

[00:01:25] And the reason she believes and divisional power is the first step toward dismantling the penal system as we know it. That more is next when Black and Published continues.

[00:01:37] Alright, so Jen, first question. When did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:55] My family is very supportive, honestly of the arts and just what you wanted to do. So I guess when I was a kid because I used to draw and write.

[00:02:06] And so they're like, oh yeah, you can keep doing that. And my aunt, one of my aunts, she helps me make a book.

[00:02:13] So we did the cardboard and all that stuff. And I made a book. And I think it was about Santa Claus or something.

[00:02:19] So technically, I had my first book. I was self-published at probably six.

[00:02:24] So then in that your family always being so supportive of the arts was writing to something that you always wanted to do.

[00:02:37] Yeah, I liked telling stories and reading was very encouraged, particularly by the women in my family.

[00:02:45] They are active readers and they just humored me.

[00:02:50] You know that, I mean your mom sometimes you're a humorous kid.

[00:02:54] I think what I find funny is that you talk about humoring kids and then they grow up to be adults who didn't want to be still entertained in that way.

[00:03:03] So your family humored you like short, let's make a book about the story that you've written about Santa Claus and then here you are decades later.

[00:03:13] And making a living as a writer. So what was that trajectory like for you?

[00:03:19] I went to high school for writing too.

[00:03:22] So in New York City, I don't know if it's the same where you are. You apply for high schools.

[00:03:28] And so I chose a creative writing high school. John Bound, that was my school for four years.

[00:03:33] And then I got my bachelor's at the city college of New York and I always prefaced this, especially when I talk to people who go into publishing is that I got a full ride to CUNY.

[00:03:45] So I came out of my bachelor's with no debt, which is very lucky.

[00:03:48] Amen.

[00:03:49] Right. It's very lucky and then went into publishing because I don't really make a living writing.

[00:03:55] I make a living doing all the other things I do.

[00:03:59] Okay.

[00:04:00] My project manager being an editor, I make money from writing but it I would not be able to eat.

[00:04:08] I was only doing that. I write very, very slowly. I'm methodical but I'm very, very slow in terms of if I needed money now that would not be happening.

[00:04:19] And then I got my masters in it.

[00:04:21] But I was working in book publishing the whole time and then doing residences if I was able to get a residency going to workshops.

[00:04:29] I was working PTO pay time off to go to all these things.

[00:04:33] So I never stopped quote unquote studying right like I was taking money and often not getting scholarships because I made too much which is hilarious.

[00:04:41] And at the time I was making like at one point less than 30 K at 1.35 K at 1.40 K in New York City and New York City.

[00:04:50] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:51] And doing and taking this money and going to writing conferences and stuff like that.

[00:04:57] So to be not cheap, they are not cheap.

[00:05:00] And certain ones are really, really expensive like bread loaf bread loaf is over $4,000.

[00:05:07] I'd ever went to bread loaf by the way because that number just like made my heart stop but you know certain I like 2000 if you put everything together of traveling to and you know summer's peak traveling time.

[00:05:19] So those costs go up and and so you know I just showed like it's not to say people who don't do them aren't dedicated but I was willing to do that to keep studying because I just didn't get enough from my MFA program.

[00:05:34] And I knew I just needed to constantly get feedback.

[00:05:38] So for me, I was just always invested in it and I invested in it what I could which is also why I point out that I came out of bachelor's with no day.

[00:05:47] Does my next question was your MFA fully funded?

[00:05:50] No, it was not.

[00:05:52] No, it was not.

[00:05:53] I was going to work and I was working full time as an editorial assistant again, I'm okay.

[00:05:59] And then from 8 to 10, I would go to the new school Monday through Thursday for two years and then come back home.

[00:06:07] And then go to work the next morning.

[00:06:10] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:12] So I think I was one of the few people who was working full time because I say this mostly about the cohort because most of the people I went to the grad school program and this is something I got my first published essay and poets and writers talking about is the attrition rate

[00:06:27] of writers, especially in MFA programs because a lot do not continue.

[00:06:33] There's so many people I was in all these writing workshops that I was taking time off from work to go to so many of them stopped.

[00:06:40] Wow, so many stopped, you know, because it's hard.

[00:06:44] So this is like a long game thing for some of us for some of us it might work out the gate for other of us.

[00:06:50] You know, I'm in my 40s and technically I published my first book but obviously I'm sure like you know and people you've talked to on this great podcast now.

[00:06:59] It's not the first book you wrote.

[00:07:01] It's not the first book you finished it might be the one that got sold that first why a is the book I finished and sold first.

[00:07:09] Meanwhile, I've been writing short stories and novels and I have more in the works but it was the one I was like it's the one that got me my agent is the one that

[00:07:18] you know got me the book deal and all that stuff because everyone's like also your kid lit writer and I'm like well, I'm not not but I'm not only kind of like other folks, you know, like Jacqueline Woodson doesn't

[00:07:31] only write for young readers Renee Watson has a new book coming out. That's for adults so she doesn't a lot of people don't only write for this demographic.

[00:07:39] And sometimes it's where you land because it's what you finished and what we were able to sell first and then that becomes your definer.

[00:07:46] Can you talk about what the journey has been like working on stories working on novels while working in publishing at different levels and stages of the industry and for all

[00:08:02] the content and purposes struggling as a writer like what kind of mind fuck is that.

[00:08:10] Because you said it.

[00:08:12] It's got to be one.

[00:08:15] Well, also I think what benefited me in my journey was that I did work primarily in academic publishing full time.

[00:08:25] And so that is very different for working in trade so that there really is I'm very good at compartmentalization whether that is healthy or not.

[00:08:34] I don't know but it helps right.

[00:08:38] And so I did interview for a lot of trade jobs and all jobs are very competitive.

[00:08:44] I was really bad at writing copy. I was awful at writing copy for books and that's a test they give you when you're editorial assistant.

[00:08:51] And so with academic, it was I didn't have to really take tests so I was able to get in that way.

[00:08:59] So that was helpful.

[00:09:02] So much.

[00:09:04] That was very helpful and then after you start learning I was copy editing and proofreading I took a class for that.

[00:09:10] And so I still do that on occasion as well because I started working in production and production is the area where you're working with the book technically.

[00:09:20] You're not necessarily developmental editing it.

[00:09:23] You're not you know copy editing and proofreading as you know are very different things, you know it's you're looking at continuity accuracy.

[00:09:31] You might do a little fact checking but you you know that may not be part of your job.

[00:09:36] You're looking at grammar commas you know all that stuff language and stuff and asking a lot of questions.

[00:09:41] And so I was looking at books in that way which was helpful because then the creative cell got to enjoy the creative thing.

[00:09:49] I wasn't worried about what was on the New York talk that cellar list.

[00:09:52] I wasn't worried about if you know how people were talking about the acquisitions of books.

[00:09:57] It allowed me to separate it.

[00:09:59] And then I started to work with trade publishers freelance copy editing proofreading and later developmental editing.

[00:10:05] And so I knew about publishing because it's not that in academic they don't talk about it in certain ways of sales of products.

[00:10:14] But I was removed you know when you're a freelancer when you're in production, when you're in certain areas again academic or non profit in certain ways.

[00:10:24] You're not hearing it in the same way of what you're writing and so that helped.

[00:10:29] I think if I was brought up completely in trade that would have messed me up even more.

[00:10:35] I think that would mess with my head about to say that doesn't get in your head a little bit.

[00:10:39] But I'm who I am. This is what I wrote someone bought it, someone believes in it because I think that happens to writers too.

[00:10:46] And I experienced that when even after people buy your book require your book they're like well crap.

[00:10:51] I don't want to disappoint you.

[00:10:53] I'm there right now.

[00:10:54] I'm running it and it's like they bought the books of trust that we are in this relationship and it is going to be what it's going to be.

[00:11:03] And also honor where you're at.

[00:11:05] Cool child. I'm gonna get off your couch and we go continue this interview before you be there paying me okay.

[00:11:12] I'll give you a whole other episode of us who's like oh so let's talk about.

[00:11:16] I am looking at these edits and I'm just like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know.

[00:11:23] Oh, no that's real.

[00:11:25] I got that from my editor who's Stacy Barney Black woman been in the business for as long as me if not longer but mostly editorial she started out an adult move to children.

[00:11:35] And she gives long editorial letters and people warned me Nikisha people were like she gets long editorial tells I'm telling you and I'm like I can handle it.

[00:11:44] That's great. That's exactly what I need.

[00:11:46] I need a hard-ass to push me and then you get that letter and you like oh I have feelings.

[00:11:54] Like I have feelings and then I had that moment of like well why did you buy the book if you have as many edits.

[00:12:01] And all that's it.

[00:12:02] I went through all of that and then it was like can you give me this is like six weeks to two months and I'll play maybe I didn't know how to fix after things she was telling me.

[00:12:11] It took me two more months I was like out of the your is Valley critique don't know how to fix it and sometimes I just needed to figure it out but she was also open to that so I just want to extend that is if it takes you more time to fix those holes take that time and be honest that you need that time or just get on the phone with them.

[00:12:30] And be like hey I really I think this what do you think because that's what the editors are there for and that's what I needed to do I didn't end up having convo's with Stacy as much it just took me longer to figure out the things and then she like them and I was like okay but I'm like you ain't getting this into months you ain't.

[00:12:48] So how long did you work on what became forgive me not eight years on and off I looked back before the book came out and I was like holy crap I've been working on this since 2014 that's when it first began.

[00:13:01] And so I sold it in 2020 in late September early October of 2020 and then we did two more years of edits my book was pushed out a year because of timing things.

[00:13:13] So it was actually close to come out last year which actually it worked out that it didn't it was supposed to come out last August and then it got pushed October and then I got pushed to this August.

[00:13:23] I was very bummed about that when when that decision was made but my agent also helped me out because she was like you don't want to book that crash a crash is a book that's done on a very short amount of time in production no one wants to crash because then it limits your publicity potential

[00:13:41] because no one has the opportunity to really read it considering what was happening with you professionally in 2022 and I know you recently wrote an essay about this as well.

[00:13:53] So do you think having that year of breath space between leaving publishing in a very public way and your book coming out gave you time to come back into the industry with some removed feelings but then also just to enjoy the space of being a writer and not everything being about old did you hear what happened at and did you hear what happened to yeah so emotionally I think so.

[00:14:21] I think there's also that aspect of me that understands from a business side that that's a monetizable moment if we're being completely honest right it was like if I had had the book out or even pre order links because pre order links weren't available until the very end of the year because they're usually not available to at least nine months at the earliest nine months before book comes out.

[00:14:43] It could have employed more sales for a book I don't like that's not a guarantee but also this was pre Elon on Twitter Twitter is my biggest platform and so those things in terms of reach it's not just sales it's reach you know because you want to reach your community so emotionally

[00:15:07] and probably would have compartmentalized and then like I need to sell a book and we're here to talk about the book and this can help me get more visibility to have a real conversation with young readers and older readers and all this stuff about issues that are important.

[00:15:21] Sometimes that's helpful is to utilize sometimes really crappy experiences to help get a larger important message out because again it's not simply about oh I could have sold the book it's like I have a conversation about criminal justice in the carceral system that I really want to engage people in and so that would have been helpful but doesn't mean it would have been healthy.

[00:15:45] I want to go to what you said about you know having a conversation about the carceral system and justice and what Renee Watson says in the cover blur copy about what it means to have a second chance was that always the thing that you were writing toward when you started forgive me not eight years ago or has it changed over the course of those eight years especially with the decline of if there ever was a relationship between the carceral system the criminal legal system.

[00:16:15] The black community it's definitely declined from what it was in 2014 almost 10 years ago now.

[00:16:21] Yeah my biggest question was what does it take to be forgiven and I really I mean that's why I center a young girl of color so I really wanted to look at that and I think underlying that I also wanted to look at kind of the misogyny that young women of color face because you know you have violeta who is the one who is in carceral system.

[00:16:45] But I think that's what we have to do is to celebrate it and then her older brother who's this charm or the star who has his own plot line right but he's also a mirror into how the parents and the family is making this decision for their daughter in the hopes that it will help her it will make them better.

[00:17:00] We will we have to let her and seeing something wrong with her which happens to young women of color in particular black young women there's something wrong.

[00:17:11] And I really did want to look at that too. I wanted to look at forgiveness like if we're not talking about innocence or guilt if we're not talking about did you do it.

[00:17:20] We're talking about if someone did something and it is really how do you move forward from that and how do you move forward from that with other people.

[00:17:29] That was the question of just like what does forgiveness look like and so the name stuck this has always been the title forgive me not.

[00:17:37] If you always examining forgiveness what was the reception when you did sell it and how did you feel after you know eight years of going through the motions trying to get it together to you know the point where every author wants to be in where you were professionally as you were giving that opportunity to other authors.

[00:17:58] So I had sold it again 2020 and I hadn't yet accepted the job to be an acquisitions editor.

[00:18:04] I would get that offer literally a month and a half two months after I sold the book but the process was like I have to forget it.

[00:18:12] It was the pandemic man. I mean we're still in a pandemic but 2020 was a right that was the throw messed up here.

[00:18:19] So I was like we're just selling anything we're all going to die the world is ending.

[00:18:26] The elections coming I'm terrified like my mind was on just where we are as a world and country in trying to survive yeah and so I was like there were things this book does not sell.

[00:18:40] But we don't have a lot going on so my agents like I'm going to send it out and we'll see what happens and I was like whatever.

[00:18:50] Like it was like you know like there's anxiety but I'm just like there's so much I can't I can't even be pressed about this.

[00:18:57] And so she sent it to Stacy and Stacy emailed and said hey does anyone else you know can I have a day to read this.

[00:19:08] And so my agents like came to me and said are you okay with this and I said yeah again I was like in this whatever say I was like okay.

[00:19:15] She's not going to read it overnight she's it's fine.

[00:19:19] She did read it overnight she read it and she even on my agent first thing in the morning and said I'd like to set up a call with Jennifer.

[00:19:26] And so she and I set up a call on Friday and she went to her board so their editorial meetings that happened and for some groups those editorial meetings are very crucial to make a decision of whether an editor to kind of choir book or not.

[00:19:41] So she had her editorial meeting on Tuesday and she made an offer on Thursday so I sold my book within two weeks and so that's how my story happened so I was very very shocked to sell a book in two weeks.

[00:19:53] I did not and if you you had asked me that on 2020 what's on your bingo card it wouldn't have been a pandemic and it wouldn't have been selling my book at two weeks.

[00:20:03] But there was a pandemic and you did sell your book into weeks.

[00:20:08] And so I expected it to be months because I worked in publishing right I'm like I'm working publishing I'm like this can take months again this year is awful.

[00:20:17] I was like this can take however it takes. I'm not going to happen yeah or yeah or he can never happen at all and then I move on to the next book which would have been fine too you know I would have survived.

[00:20:29] That's a great outlook to have that's kind of how I was and at some point I'll tell the story publicly on this podcast and full but I think from the day that we sent out we went on submission I I sold my book in a week yeah that happens it absolutely so and in that blue my mind as it seemed to have blown yours so

[00:20:54] so joins into weeks in 2020. So we talked about the book we talked about publishing this conversation is everywhere let's just get to the book.

[00:21:04] Like it's everywhere and everything all right I might just let it ride the whole day.

[00:21:11] Forgive me not it's okay you read a little bit from it and then we will get into violeta and her brother and the trials.

[00:21:19] Jen Baker's forgive me not follows 15 year old violeta Chen Samuels who's arrested and incarcerated after a DUI kills her seven year old sister in this near future world

[00:21:32] Violeta can either be sent to prison forgiven by her family and said home or face the trials to earn their forgiveness when her family chooses the trials

[00:21:44] violeta is forced to reckon with what she did and why she did it a meditative tension where she must determine who's forgiveness is more important her families or her own here's Jen I read a letter so just a

[00:22:00] preface for folks violeta is as mentioned the main character who unfortunately it caused the death of her little sister seven year old Vivian.

[00:22:09] So she has a hard time communicating with those who were trying to communicate with her from the quote unquote outside but it's kind of cathartic for her to write to her little sister in a way so I'm going to read the first letter which I think is the shortest of the letters.

[00:22:24] Hey Viv where I am now we only get shoes you can fasten with snaps or velcro no shoelaces because you don't need to know why every time I bend over to put my shoes on I think about how long it took me to figure out how to do it.

[00:22:38] I think it's a good idea to be able to figure out how to tie them in the first place then showed me how when I was five heated rabbit ears you learn super quick at that age not rabbit ears you did the one string two strings full than new string way.

[00:22:52] I thought I could help you with that turns out you didn't need me.

[00:22:56] I don't know why I'm talking about this it just came to me when I was putting my shoes back on while I wait for Callie to visit.

[00:23:03] You know what I always admired about you that you never showed fear when I was seven I was sort of afraid of all the things that amusement parks dad carried me toward rides until I screamed so hard I almost burst in ear drum.

[00:23:16] The most I could do with the tea cups or the merry go rounds nothing in the air but you you were right at the height line for some of the smaller roller coasters and you sped through to sit in front so you can see every hill or drop as it happened.

[00:23:31] I'm roller coasters I kept my eyes shut feeling the rise and fall right in my belly I was always thankful when they were over while you went back for more.

[00:23:40] You weren't afraid to fail either we all took swimming lessons together and you couldn't get your legs and arms to move in the water at the same time that was surprisingly one of the few things I caught on too quicker than you maybe the only thing being in the water may be feel free to relax and let go.

[00:23:59] My whole body floated right to the top underwater I could see some of the things that sank to the bottom of the pool like band aids and balls of hair.

[00:24:08] Even the smell of chlorine helped me relax I look over while floating or doing froggy kick or freestyle to see you struggling in your favorite cow print bathing suit and was matching swim cap.

[00:24:19] Get your hands to slip in and out of the water but not splashing your legs hard enough to move forward I watch the instructors watch you how they grabbed you when your arms flailed and held you up.

[00:24:28] When you had trouble keeping your body afloat and sometimes I'm sorry to say this I was glad to see you fail at the same time I admired you for trying it made me feel better to know there was something even one thing you couldn't master that I did.

[00:24:46] You nailed Mandarin cooking with mom making all the friends wherever you went in the pool you never cried though you got frustrated a lot.

[00:24:54] You'd stop up the kitty stairs from the pool to the floor making sure everyone heard the smack of your wet feet against the tile next time I tell you in the car on our way home.

[00:25:04] Mama dad would treat us to ice cream while our skin dried from the chlorine the smell of it clinging to us looking back I realized I didn't offer to help you the instructors tried but even when they held you you couldn't get it.

[00:25:18] Now a day is I wonder if maybe the words of a big sister would have helped if I showed you on your bedroom floor or in the bathtub or even in that senior center pool we visited twice a week and summer.

[00:25:29] I think about these things a lot I wonder if I was a good big sister to you while you were here I'd like to believe I was then again I wouldn't be where I am if that was the case would I.

[00:25:41] I'll try to write against you let.

[00:25:44] Thank you so your book is set in like this near future world where instead of young people who have committed a crime automatically going to trial and a jury and being sentenced to juvenile detention centers there is like this reform that has happened where they are the people who they

[00:26:10] wrong have to choose what the punishment is going to be why was that the vehicle you chose to examine how forgiveness happens.

[00:26:23] It was spurred by that show for giver forget so the premise of forgive or forget is that you mess up and do something well the initial years then it changed but you did something messed up like you cheated on your wife or you bankrupted somebody.

[00:26:39] You know what you do you take them on a national syndicate television show with a live studio audience to tell your business and then say and I'd like them to forgive me.

[00:26:51] And so the show goes to the person it is like would you like to come on this show about what happened and someone goes to a door at the person if the person is behind the door it means they're open to discussion doesn't mean necessarily they totally forgive you but it means maybe you have a chance.

[00:27:08] Or if you open the door and no one is there their face will pop up on a screen right and so that happens in the first chapter of their face pops up on a screen and they show a video of like this is why I don't give you this is why I chose not to get on that plane.

[00:27:22] And so that's how it first happened I was just like this is so ridiculous that what if this was how carceral systems were what if it was the person you wrong that may be decision and maybe it's more than one thing right because restorative justice is a thing.

[00:27:37] So I really wanted to think about well if her family was the one making this decision I feel like her family would want her to get quote unquote better right and so that's when the trials in a form of quote unquote rehabilitation comes up because these are their words these are like.

[00:27:54] The Department of Corrections words restorative justice rehabilitation and obedient reducing recidivism you know that's their thinking.

[00:28:04] And so the thing isn't changed really is just who gets to be able to say that they're the one making the decision because Randall is the like their mediator or go between or something for the family and he's kind of dictating what happens even though the parents are like yeah like he's very insistent upon what the parent should do even though the parents are supposed to be running the show which leads me on page 48.

[00:28:32] Counselor Susan is talking to Violeta and she says your job is to show your dedication to forgiveness.

[00:28:42] How does one show dedication to forgiveness when to be forgiven at some point that's a daily thing like you have to choose it like it's an active choice to forgive somewhere right and she separated from her family so that it's not as though they are seeing.

[00:29:01] What's happening to her every day they're seeing that what happens with these trials because they're allowed to see video of what happens so they can see video in real time or they could see it after the fact of what the trial is of and so there be again and then Randall is there right this representative of the state is there to say that well here's the video and this is how it looks and this is what we've monitored and this is what we've observed and she's like a test case.

[00:29:30] But it's so weird but it also is akin to what is happening because people who are in cars that can be made to work so how is that part of you know to be like why is this part of the sentence why is this part of like what is the point.

[00:29:46] And you raise that question here on page 47 you say at the same time there was the question of how juvenile inmates could support the economy and I think we'll be looking for the carceral system as a whole

[00:29:58] there are counties and cities and towns across the country where the prison is the largest employer is the place that keeps the economy of that place going the fact that incarceration and mass incarceration specifically employees and enriches so many people and cares not about forgiveness or those people actually being rehabilitated

[00:30:26] is a question that I think looms over this book because of how carelessly these kids are treated.

[00:30:36] And they're emotional toll of it because also on top of that is supposed to teach them a lesson and I think that you touch on that with the book because like you have the counselor who's supposed to be there for the young people who are incarcerated

[00:30:53] and then you have the mediator who's supposed to be hoping the family navigate how they're choosing to make sure that their child is rehabilitated before she comes home and is forgiven.

[00:31:04] And you have all of these well meaning systems that are supposed to be in place that are then war and corrupted by people who either don't believe in it, have an ulterior motive

[00:31:21] or just because that's what humans do, like even the best laid intentions cannot come out right just because of how human nature is.

[00:31:29] And so then I wonder in writing this book and examining forgiveness and what it means to have justice and fairness for those who are actually wrong within a family, do you have any ideas about what that should look like in actuality and the country we live in now?

[00:31:50] Yeah, I just I am a big proponent of therapy like good therapy and maybe that's a very simplistic answer but I don't know that everyone a can be helped right I'm not going to say should I'm going to say can and what does that look like for an individual because hurt people hurt people and sometimes it's not that sometimes is just a bigger thing but I feel like we never look at the route right like the unhoused carceral systems that it did a dot it's not going to be a real thing.

[00:32:19] But it did a dot it's never like again I'm saying never but I feel like it we're not asking the right questions of what people need.

[00:32:28] Violetta needed to be listened to and she didn't have the language to ask for that but she needed certain things and so that's what I'm working for her to get to is this sense of agency and she owns what she does, but I think she needs to own other things about her that allow her to be seen allow her to really get her humanity on

[00:32:48] the forefront rather than continually be named based on that. So if you are in a space where you have a number, if you are in a space where you were reminded everything you did if you are in a space that is decrepit if you're in a space where they don't give you good food

[00:33:03] if you are in a space where you are isolated, if you were in a space where you can't move freely your freedoms are being taken so much.

[00:33:12] How do you expect people to act? Well you're taking something from them rather than being like well what do you need and I get it they're like really bad crimes and there are other things that are crimes

[00:33:24] that I don't necessarily agree with listing as crimes you know what I mean there are things that people just need and people think that people do and I believe in accountability but I don't know that the carceral system is accountability it is caging it is mistreatment it is removing

[00:33:42] from a person and then saying you need to work for those freedoms, you need to earn this back and I don't know that forgiveness is that. I don't know that forgiveness is you need to earn this from me

[00:33:55] and it's complicated I think trust is one thing you know like if you've lied to me I think we need to build trust again but like how do you even do that? You do that through actions

[00:34:05] but if I never talk to you if you're far away how do I build that with you. So I think it's very specific and complicated for a character like Violetta which is why I chose that and why it came to me but I also understand that it is a bigger question in terms of other topics

[00:34:24] and so I don't want to minimize it and say well this fits every case but for Violetta I think this fits her and I think considering I live near a county courthouse and then a place where people are detained that a lot of the times it's not for violent stuff.

[00:34:42] The people who are detained near me it's not for violent stuff. So if it's not violent why are they detained and why do they have to now go to court and pay for a lawyer and do this and do that? Like what is it that we are putting these folks through?

[00:34:57] I just think that in listening to you talk about the systems that these systems and infrastructures for incarceration are built so young you know the School of Prison Pipeline but beyond that it's clear that just as there is a way for young people to go down the quote unquote right path

[00:35:23] and there's a system and infrastructure of elite daycares and private prep schools and college and Ivy League and the internships and da da da da da da da da even you know we talked about writing the residences, the fellowships and if they all of these marquee type of things to do to check a list to get to wherever you're going to go in life.

[00:35:47] There is a saying on the other end where if you fail your reading of school or if you're labeled a behavior problem that there is a system and an infrastructure in place that will then funnel you in a different direction.

[00:36:02] And I know here where I am in Jacksonville they are actual schools that operate similar to prisons and that the kids aren't free to move about.

[00:36:14] They aren't allowed to have extracurricular activities or going to feel trips everything is very restricted and it's supposedly the last stop before detention so it's supposed to be like this alternative space but it's not.

[00:36:28] And so all of those systems and infrastructures are built from the youngest of ages and then it's almost like a pinball machine where it's happenstance luck and chance on where you get to go.

[00:36:42] And we see that in the book like violeta's brother is very much the golden child where the system and infrastructure is built for him to succeed he just needs to follow the path whereas violeta she starting off on that path with one wrong turn one pinball swipe to the left and then she's often another pad.

[00:37:01] And now she's it funneling through that system and infrastructure and everything is so grossly unfair but then built that way to operate as it was supposed to I guess the question if I have any is do you have any encouragement for young people who are in this very vulnerable place in their lives and they're adolescent in their youth in their teen years where they're having to navigate these systems and they are really outside of their control.

[00:37:30] The thing that I wish I wish I asked more questions and it's not challenging to ask a question right but we're kind of in that space, especially now where people are like take away books take away education take away you know because it is trying to take away freedom of thought.

[00:37:47] And I feel like the access to information as well as the encouragement to think more and to ask these questions and to interact more with others is kind of a stepping stone rather than just going with it because I feel like a lot of us, especially us big two black women.

[00:38:07] We are the receiver of people just do what it takes you know there things that yeah you go with because it's like okay but there things you're just like why are we doing this why are we doing this what's the benefit and is usually power.

[00:38:21] And so I feel like what I've said to people i've been speaking with is that at the end of the book I want by a letter to have power and I want young people to know you do have power power looks different ways.

[00:38:34] But the power to say you will do this the power to do this to power to save us the power to dead of the dog are things you have.

[00:38:42] And can utilize to empower yourself to a point where you understand maybe you're not wrong maybe the system is wrong.

[00:38:50] And you are operating within a system that a lot of people are just trying to survive in and that's understandable and it's not great at the same time so I don't know if that quite answers your question I just feel like there's this individual power that we need to understand before we even get to understanding of collective power.

[00:39:08] Because I feel like we've seen what collective power can look like and then it can fall apart and I think 2020 with a very good example of that as well as 2017 if we remember where is it in 2023.

[00:39:21] It's not to say it's not existed but we need to recognize individual power first and then build with those communities who are ready to do that work as well.

[00:39:30] But even beyond that I think one of the things that isn't as explicit in the book but I'm certainly taking away from it now and in light of our conversation is that when you come into power.

[00:39:42] That doesn't mean that the only way you can maintain power is by punishing and penalizing and I feel like the system of the world have been maintained by threat of punishment and the threat of penalization.

[00:39:57] And that is seen on a global scale in the grandest of ways and the world but also in very small and intricate ways and just even bullying that happens between students or what happens to violeta in the book and how people who are in positions of power when they have the opportunity to use that power in a way that hurts someone else they choose to do so.

[00:40:22] And I think that is something that our carceral system as a whole should examine about itself in that you are literally holding people's lives in the balance and the choice that we continue to make an upholding in systems of incarceration is to punish and to penalize instead of examining what led to these people being in this position.

[00:40:45] Why are they here? What do they need what don't they have what didn't they have and again it's not that everybody can't be helped or can't be served or should be helped or should be served when we have to look at what is underlying all of these systems and things in place in a lot of times it's just having the ability to punish and penalize because you have power.

[00:41:08] Yeah it's wild isn't it it's wild and it's something people hope to ascend to which is also what I'm I've realized over time is like I think people see power not just as wealth but as though power over people and maybe like that is in tandem with people's thinking of wealth but just also you know being a woman who's dated men you know sometimes that power dynamic is just like you really just need to have a hold on something.

[00:41:36] Right over something or somebody and it's a wild yeah. Yeah wild times so let's go to the speed round in this like look game for we go for the morning what is if you have one your favorite book.

[00:41:50] Oh.

[00:41:52] Your favorite book of the moment of the hour okay that's fair.

[00:42:00] I will say I am a huge fan of big the picture book by Voshti Harrison that is a finalist for the National Book Award yes Voshti I love that book so much awesome now got to get it.

[00:42:17] Who is your favorite author.

[00:42:19] Zora now her son what do you think is the best book to movie or TV adaptation I think the best book to move the adaptation and that I like the written material as much as the film broke back mountain.

[00:42:37] But like if I was saying a book I didn't like an adaptation I love devil worst product.

[00:42:43] The movie is fantastic I did not like the book that movies perfection it's such a good movie oh my god so good.

[00:42:51] If money were no option where would you go what would you do and where would you live.

[00:42:56] Singapore it's really great there the food is amazing it's so clean it was easy to get around the food was amazing.

[00:43:06] I met a lot of there's a lot of American tourists there's two so I don't know if that's a good or bad thing or Singapore but I just loved it so name three things on your bucket list I want to go to Thailand because that looks amazing I'm still considering whether or not I want to jump out of a plane and I really want to learn.

[00:43:25] And I really want to learn to swim better I started and I stopped because of some like nerve issues but I really want to get back and like be good at swimming what brings you joy sleep.

[00:43:40] But mostly big in community with other people like you and my friends and everybody so I think that's that helped me survive during the pandemic I think you know emotionally we needed each other at some being in community with some.

[00:43:54] Many wonderful people that that brought me joy and celebrating other people to like everyone's doing some great stuff what brings you peace the gym I joined a gym again a lady Jim Lucille Roberts and I find so much peace going there just like working out everyone's polite everyone respects everybody it's just like yeah it's just a very good energy and it brings me peace like moving and all that stuff brings me peace.

[00:44:23] So I game is called rewriting the classics classic is however you define it name one book you wished you would have written.

[00:44:34] I mean it goes back to Zora like their eyes are watching God I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have when I first read it in high school but those senses are ridiculous like so good name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it?

[00:44:50] I like the wicked series I don't know if people read wicked by Gregory McGuire was very big in the early 20s and what based off the Broadway show when upcoming movie I didn't love how that ended I didn't love the first book specifically in the series.

[00:45:05] As the series went on it just kind of dragged out.

[00:45:08] So in a way and I think he could have just stopped at the first book or he could have kind of brought some more things full circle rather than just stretching out the lineage.

[00:45:19] And now for the shady question name a book that you think is overrated and why or overtot professor.

[00:45:27] It's probably dick.

[00:45:30] Why?

[00:45:33] Why?

[00:45:36] It's in a turmoil I get it I get it but you know just the whole thing like it stretches so long that book could have been half the length and could have been super tight.

[00:45:46] Isn't it like a thousand pages.

[00:45:48] Yeah and I want to read that in high school and I was like what I understand and it's like all the metaphor so that was how I was learning metaphor was their moby dick like coffin saved me what is that mean I'm still like thinking about it 20 plus years later I get the respect for it but I just think the execution was not there I just don't think it was there.

[00:46:13] It wasn't giving.

[00:46:18] It's giving too long.

[00:46:22] So my final question for you today when you are dead and gone among the ancestors what would you like someone to write about you and the legacy of words and work that you've left behind.

[00:46:34] I think mostly the Jennifer aim to make things more available to people and empower people to know that their stories matter what they do matters and to respect other people and their time.

[00:46:49] I just want to go out and be remembered as someone who is there for others and also hopefully there for myself but there for others.

[00:46:57] There for yourself though that's a good one.

[00:47:02] I'm going to end it right there.

[00:47:04] Big thank you to Jim Baker for being here today on black and published make sure you check out Jen's debut novel forgive me not out now from Penguin Random House.

[00:47:15] And if you're not following Jen check her out on the socials she's at J Baker NYC on Instagram and Twitter.

[00:47:26] That's our show for the week if you like this episode and want more black and published head to our Instagram page.

[00:47:33] It's at black and published and that's B L K and published there I posted a bonus clip from my interview with Jen about the disinformation that celebrity books are the books that save publishing companies.

[00:47:50] Make sure you check it out and let me know what you think in the comments.

[00:47:54] I'll have John next week when our guests will be Kim Johnson author of Invisible Sun.

[00:48:01] I really wrote this book because people want to move on and abandon it and having been familiar with being trauma informed and especially racially trauma informed you can't move past things.

[00:48:19] If you want to heal you actually have to process it and so many people still have yet to process what they experience in 2020.

[00:48:28] That's next week on black and published I'll talk to you then peace.