A Love Letter for the Girlies with Liv Little

[00:00:00] I wanted the gaze to be different. I didn't want to over explain anything, I just wanted

[00:00:04] you to sit with, fill with. Yeah, you might not know all of the things or all of the references

[00:00:09] that a point is like you can track her emotional journey and you feel how discomfort.

[00:00:14] What's good? I'm Nikesha Elise Williams and this is Black and Published. Bring

[00:00:20] a youth of journeys of writers, poets, playwrights and storytellers of all kinds. Today's guest

[00:00:27] is Liv Little, author of the novel Rosewater. A book she says was driven by the transformational

[00:00:36] force of love in her life. I believe that like compassion is like the foundation to like

[00:00:42] a beautiful, beautiful love story, right? And so for me this was a book that caused the

[00:00:48] compassion of understanding, of listening, of watching, of observing and stepping back,

[00:00:54] without all our assumptions. Liv, a Black queer woman of Jamaican and

[00:00:59] Guyanese descent who lives in South London gave her ethnic background to her main character,

[00:01:05] Elsi. But make no mistake, this is not memoir, masquerading as fiction. While she was dedicated

[00:01:13] to illustrating the way's Black queer and femme communities show up and support one another.

[00:01:20] Plus, the reason she said it was important to explore the roots of homophobia and heteronormativity

[00:01:27] and how it's weaponized against queer communities. And the reason Liv made sure her heroine's

[00:01:33] journey of self-discovery was one filled with friendship, love and sex. That more is next

[00:01:41] from Black and published continues.

[00:01:51] So Liv, when did you know that you were a writer?

[00:01:56] It's funny, like my mum says that she knew I was a writer from the age of like four or something

[00:02:01] because my mum's a Buddhist and she used to be part of this like Buddhist magazine that they have

[00:02:05] and I'd sit in the editorial meetings and she was like, you were always so interested and I could

[00:02:09] just tell you're going to be a writer but I think that's one of those things that your mum

[00:02:13] sends, right? In terms of when I knew, I think probably around the time that I went to uni really,

[00:02:21] I think I studied politics and sociology and I was writing a lot on migration and women's rights

[00:02:28] and I think I realised that like the style in which I write is one that I hope would be able to

[00:02:33] be read by more people than like within that kind of academic space. And I think I sometimes didn't

[00:02:38] love the pretentiousness in which certain things have to be written. And I of course give me

[00:02:45] description, give me like all of that beautiful stuff that makes you fall in love with writing but

[00:02:50] I think I want people to also be able to understand what it is that I'm saying without requiring

[00:02:57] translation and so I think that was when I was like, okay maybe journalism, maybe writing in other

[00:03:03] forms is actually kind of writing that I should be doing. I think it was at that stage.

[00:03:09] So then did you always like try to stick to nonfiction or did you ever try creative nonfiction

[00:03:15] or fiction or anything like that? In the beginning, it was really nonfiction and I was working in

[00:03:21] TV as well and it was all in like that children documentary and I was like this is what I want to do.

[00:03:26] I want to tell stories in this like very specific way and I think over time I started to find

[00:03:31] a lot more freedom and joy and excitement in creative fiction and all of that's like that was where

[00:03:36] I was like, oh my god, I feel so alive. I feel so free and I feel so able to still make points or

[00:03:42] to like express themes and topics that are important to me but in a way which can be entertaining

[00:03:46] which can make people laugh, make people feel and allow people to feel without telling them what

[00:03:52] is wrong and what is right actually just like sit and live with this character or sit and live

[00:03:57] in this other world and I think that's not to say I'll never write anything ever again but the only

[00:04:02] kind of piece, the only genocid pieces that I really love to write tend to be profiles and that's

[00:04:06] because they're very like characters are full. It's all about getting to know the person and

[00:04:11] understanding why they move through the world in the way that they do and that really translates

[00:04:15] in fiction you know and especially with my first novel which is very much kind of like a slice

[00:04:21] of life you're in this character's experience. So the knowing that you always really enjoyed storytelling

[00:04:27] once you got into it through journalism and then doing television and things like that,

[00:04:32] when did you know that you know what? I think I want to write a book. Yeah I think I've known

[00:04:38] for a while actually but with me it's always like because I like to work in so many different mediums

[00:04:45] it's always rather than being led by I need to write a book so I'm going to think about an idea for a

[00:04:49] book it's more like what is the idea that comes to me and in which format do I want to tell it

[00:04:54] and I always I always have like quite a clear instinct for how that happens and like the first time

[00:05:00] that I thought okay novel writing could be something that is for me, I sat down on my preach

[00:05:05] anyway which was quite formulaic and I didn't end up being the book that is Rosewater

[00:05:09] it's completely different and I realized actually I need to take time, sit back, I kind of readjusted

[00:05:15] how I worked, how I lived and like put myself in a position where I had time to think and to sit

[00:05:21] and to just feel and when I did that I have many years later then the idea of Rosewater really

[00:05:27] presented itself to me and I think because for me love is such a transformational force within my

[00:05:32] life it spoke to that kind of fundamentally and I knew that this is something that I wanted to write

[00:05:36] in novel form. What was it about this love story that said this is the book that I have to write?

[00:05:42] Mmm I mean for me I wanted to read a queer messy love story, I wanted to read one that was like

[00:05:50] romantic but not necessarily a rom-com. I wanted to write one which felt honest and true

[00:05:56] to the ways in which people are complicated and the way that our experiences of love you know

[00:06:01] we're all a product of our environment and how would be amazing also you know and essentially all

[00:06:07] of that sort of stuff is really important and so I wanted to write something that really

[00:06:11] interrogated someone's ability to even be open to love, to fall in love, to be scared of love,

[00:06:17] to fear vulnerability and to like map out that journey. I knew what I wanted to write and I knew that

[00:06:22] I also wanted to write a very strong character who like knows who she is even if the world doesn't

[00:06:28] make space for her. She's not insecure about her blackness, she's not insecure about her queerness,

[00:06:32] she knows who she is. I also really wanted to write a book where it was about to protagonist

[00:06:39] to love interest who are black, I didn't want to write it in relation to whiteness you know I

[00:06:45] wanted to write a book that kind of reflects the experience of love maybe that I'm having

[00:06:50] those were the things that were important to me and again it was like I didn't want to over

[00:06:55] explain anything I just wanted you to sit with, fill with yeah you might not know all of the things

[00:07:00] or all of the references but the point is like you can track her emotional journey and you feel

[00:07:05] how discomfortless thing of why I wrote this in first person. I really wanted you to fill the

[00:07:09] immediacy of LC's experience of her pain off like the stress when we meet her when she's being

[00:07:14] evicted of you know I want people to sit in all of those different and the sexiness and the like

[00:07:20] fear and the like moments of preemptive grief I wanted you to really just sit in it as you're

[00:07:26] reading it and I wrote it from my heart and I hope people can feel that this is a book that has a

[00:07:31] lot of love in it. As you're talking I'm seeing how you're very animated about the kind of story

[00:07:36] that you wanted to tell and again as you're speaking immediately what came to mind is the famous

[00:07:41] Toni Morrison quote that if there is a book that you want to read that does not exist you must write

[00:07:45] it and so with that being the setup was it important for you to write this queer black love story

[00:07:54] because there was not a contemporary book where you sought yourself. Yeah interesting I think one

[00:08:01] author in particular who's work I did read and I love so much and it's just beautiful on every level

[00:08:09] was when I read here comes a sun by Nicole Dennis Ben and I picked it up and I didn't actually know

[00:08:13] what it was going to be about at all and I'm like Caribbean I'm half guineas half Jamaican and my

[00:08:19] protagonist here is guineas she writes these about black queer Jamaican women which is her as well

[00:08:26] and reading that book and also Pepsi but at that point it was just here comes the sun

[00:08:32] I was like wow it was like this moment where I was like I'm definitely not these characters but

[00:08:36] it was the first time I suppose in a really contemporary way that I had read an experience that felt

[00:08:41] close to mind so I fell in love with it and I fell in love with her as an author and so I think

[00:08:47] our books are not the same or anything like that but I think in terms of like the inspiration or

[00:08:52] the pot like knowing that it was possible for me to create something that spoke to my experience

[00:08:57] or but not even my experience but the world maybe as I see it actually I think that was like a really

[00:09:04] good inspiration and then you know like Bernadine has done that with Goam and other like there are

[00:09:10] different kinds of black women and guineas represented but I think in terms of like a story

[00:09:17] with like a working class protagonist growing up in South London which is you know

[00:09:24] a place that I love and that has nurtured me and that I am the way that I am because of that place

[00:09:29] and a sexy book that explored different forms of intimacy and what that tells us about

[00:09:34] where LC is I think yeah I did write the book that I wanted to read and I didn't want to

[00:09:39] necessarily read another experience of someone who perhaps is like more embedded within the arts

[00:09:44] and has done the unique thing and has like you know I wanted the gaze to be different.

[00:09:49] You said you wanted the gaze to be different and I think for black authors the question is always

[00:09:54] is the white gaze to apparent in the work for you writing a queer love story

[00:10:00] and also writing a black queer love story did you feel like you were trying to make sure that

[00:10:05] you weren't having to overexplain for people who were not queer identifying and coming to this work

[00:10:11] and just being like this is up a piece of life that you may not know but you're going to get into

[00:10:15] and you're going to adapt or you're going to go Google something.

[00:10:19] Yeah I also just think like that the themes of like figuring out who you are or finding your place

[00:10:24] of feeling maybe like you don't fit in and searching for home and belonging and also like

[00:10:29] and also trying to search and understand parts of yourself that enables you to move through the world

[00:10:34] in the way we are open to the possibility of love. I think those are like human experiences so

[00:10:39] I would hope that people can can meet my work on that level and yeah I'm thinking about the book

[00:10:45] that I want to write for myself. I'm not the sort of like writer who's ever going to be thinking

[00:10:51] and I know that there is an expectation or like that they can be a tendency to like favor

[00:10:56] books that do sit in a space where the blackness is explained explicitly

[00:11:02] and the references are explained explicitly and maybe the love is still rooted in something that

[00:11:07] you know is outside of that which again it's so valid but I think for me that's not who I am

[00:11:13] and that's not how I move through the world like the humanist, the emotional connection should be

[00:11:19] enough that you shouldn't feel uncomfortable at reading about an experience that is outside of

[00:11:25] it wasn't if you are I also just don't really care. So taking that you know that attitude in mind

[00:11:35] when did you finish the novel and then what was your publication process like?

[00:11:39] I was writing this book in a year when my dad was dying I was looking after him and it was like

[00:11:43] the worst year of my life but this book held so much joy for me it was such a place where I could

[00:11:50] just go and I could write and I could just be creative and so I think that's why I was able to write

[00:11:55] it so quickly actually I wrote it over the course of a year or I finished it with an year then obviously

[00:12:00] once we you know I edited it and then we it got acquired then we edited it a lot more but yeah

[00:12:05] it was relatively quick in the beginning I went somewhere in nature and I wrote for like a week

[00:12:10] to kind of like break the story and then like after that it was wherever whenever I just knew

[00:12:16] that I wanted to write and I'd also made this decision where I was like I quit my job and I want

[00:12:21] to exist in another space and so it was like yeah you also need to write the book because you

[00:12:26] know what I'm writing the book you have to finish it like now you're working for yourself I guess

[00:12:31] I mean I was kind of working for myself before but it in a different context and so I finished

[00:12:37] the book and then I edited it with my literary agent. And then what year was this?

[00:12:43] It must have been 21, 2021 because that was the year that I got the deal and stuff so yeah but

[00:12:48] like towards the end of the year yeah then we had a process of like obviously going out and seeing

[00:12:53] if anyone wants it and yeah then we went out with it and then it got preempted I had a couple of

[00:13:01] great offers and I knew who I was gonna go with really and that was it and I'm fortunate in a way

[00:13:08] that I was published by one of the few black led publishers in the UK and someone who I have known

[00:13:15] and who's actually supported my career for a long time and who just gets it who is close to where

[00:13:21] I'm from in Jamaica he's a South Londoner who just understood and who understands me actually and

[00:13:27] so therefore understood what I was trying to do with the work and so I think that was great and my

[00:13:30] US editor was actually also phenomenal so you know it all worked really well it was like perfect

[00:13:39] honestly I've had I mean it's been an amazing and an amazing experience you know yeah can you talk

[00:13:45] more about when you say like you know instead of like pushing to go to an auction and trying to make

[00:13:50] the deal get bigger and run the price up because that's what that really does about you know what

[00:13:56] it was that you were looking for in an editor in a publishing house in the next steps of your

[00:14:03] literary career and how that knowing came to you yeah I think for me I want to surround myself with

[00:14:09] people and I'm and this applies to like as I'm doing some work in TV now and also like film is I

[00:14:15] want to always surround myself with teams with you know whether that's development producers or

[00:14:21] publishers whoever it but people that are really gonna challenge me they're really gonna push me

[00:14:27] that are really gonna not just be like oh it's amazing it's great that energy is not helpful for me

[00:14:34] I don't want to meet someone that's just like no I want someone that's like okay this is what

[00:14:40] this is what I like about this or but these are things that I think you can really push and like

[00:14:45] most of the time when they're delivering the feedback or the challenge I'm like yeah I know like

[00:14:50] I agree or okay interesting that makes me think about this in another way of course you're allowed to

[00:14:56] hear a note take in the note digest the note and we're gonna actually this is how I feel about that

[00:15:00] note but I think for me someone who like who understands like the heart of what it is that I'm trying

[00:15:06] to say with a particular piece of work because there's the world there's a story but like you can

[00:15:11] distill it to like a single message that's speaking to something that's important to me that understands

[00:15:16] the lens in the gazebo which like I want to tell the stories that I want to tell and that is also

[00:15:22] that's gonna push me like and if you're not going to do those things then I can't trust you

[00:15:27] you know I need to be able to trust the people that I'm working with and you know I've had

[00:15:31] experiences working with people who who maybe at first I think that they're going to be able to do

[00:15:36] that and then they don't but actually you know I I feel like I'm kind of like finding my feet in

[00:15:41] in terms of that when it comes to figuring out who those people are on my kind of the next

[00:15:46] project that I'm working on and that is really exciting you know I met a producer who was

[00:15:51] I'm working on like a short with at the moment and she's just fucking fab and she was like yeah well

[00:15:56] this bit is a bit feels a bit force and I was like yeah it does feel a bit force doesn't like

[00:16:01] you know I those are the kind of conversations as much as it's like okay so we've got to go back

[00:16:05] I'd rather go back a million times and produce something that I know in my heart of heart

[00:16:11] I love and I'm so proud of then then rushing something through for the sake of it for me personally

[00:16:18] I really actually need to work in the way that I'm working now which is much slower much more

[00:16:24] deliberate and about getting so deep into the research into the psyche of these characters

[00:16:29] into the world it's like anyone that wants to help me do those things in a way which like I said

[00:16:35] is about challenge as well as support of course the support needs to be there too I think that's

[00:16:40] not for me as well I look forward okay so then with all of that said and producing this novel that

[00:16:46] challenged you and pushed you to be to make it the best that you could let's get into the book

[00:16:51] have you read something from it and then we can talk about LC and her shenanigans

[00:16:57] not shenanigans rose water by live little follows LC who is an aspiring poet

[00:17:04] on what begins as the worst day of her life she's evicted from her public housing apartment

[00:17:10] and has nowhere to turn but to her best friend who she won't admit she has a crush on

[00:17:17] in this multi-generational queer love story live explores what it means to live a life

[00:17:23] unashamed an unapologetic for who you are in a world that isn't designed for you

[00:17:30] here's live okay I'll do like a little bit from the beginning I think which is maybe quite nice

[00:17:38] the first thing she does is squeeze me tight my eyes glaze with a thin layer of water

[00:17:45] she's here for the first time in months do you yet looks past me into the flat to one of the men

[00:17:50] who are upon hearing the door reinstate his initial position in my hallway her eyes move

[00:17:56] the end of the box is on the floor all without letting go of me I want to stay in her arms

[00:18:02] but we have to first maneuver all my belongings into her perjagged green mini it's about

[00:18:07] to be written off but her grandma left her the car left the car to her after she died

[00:18:13] so Juliet refuses to get rid of it who are they Juliet whispers into my ear her curly hair sticking

[00:18:20] momentarily to my warm damp cheeks a combination of sweat and tears bay leafs I gulp down the shame

[00:18:29] we have 10 minutes to get everything into your car then they're locking the door

[00:18:33] I can see Juliet's brain kicking into gear just like it used to when we were 12 and she can

[00:18:38] cut some witty comeback that would disarm want to be bullies in the playground there's a look on

[00:18:44] her face is serious now more brutal than usual I'll put the back seat down and we'll get everything in

[00:18:51] don't you worry else releasing me from her tender perfume squeeze she picks up the heaviest

[00:18:57] box with her thin but capable arms and without complaint walks it out to the door and towards the

[00:19:02] lift I follow with a lighter box disregarding the bay leafs who are looking from us to their watches

[00:19:07] and back again after six efficient laps everything is inside the lift which Juliet has wedged open

[00:19:13] with the biggest box but both sticky would sweat from the end of summer heat Juliet has her

[00:19:19] hair pulled back and there's a sheen covering her nose cheekbones and forehead her honey skin is glowing

[00:19:26] and I realize how much I've missed her even after everything she's here thank you the book opens

[00:19:35] on what has to be the worst day of anybody's life I don't think it's a spoiler to say the main

[00:19:42] character is being evicted she has nowhere to go she's kind of estranged from her family and her best

[00:19:52] friend shows up as best friends are supposed to to help her out and the story kind of takes all

[00:19:59] from there we delve deep into else's life into Juliet's life into their messiness because they're best

[00:20:06] friends but there's an attraction that they're not acting on and else he's like a struggling poet

[00:20:12] where did all of this come from for you to ground it into these two women and anchor the story around

[00:20:21] not just their friendship but what could be in their lives as lovers I mean so many things really

[00:20:32] drawing on a lot of things there I mean firstly I always fall in love with girls or people who write

[00:20:37] poetry so that's probably where that comes from but also as I was saying earlier writing really strong

[00:20:45] but really like distinct characters Juliet's no like Wolf Lauer either she knows who she is

[00:20:52] sometimes in a way which is somewhat overbearing but I wanted to write these two characters who

[00:20:58] despite coming from two very different worlds the two very different lived experiences

[00:21:03] love each other and try to show up for each other but I wanted to show the different ways in which

[00:21:09] sometimes they just don't quite get it right as sometimes they do really get it and that's really

[00:21:13] beautiful but I wanted to get into the complicated nature of being friends with or being in love

[00:21:19] with someone who maybe cannot 100% relate to what it is that you're going through despite trying

[00:21:27] to show up and I wanted to I wanted to explore what that looks and what that feels like and what

[00:21:32] does it look and feel like for someone you know I don't know me personally I often struggle to ask

[00:21:38] for help and I know that like a lot of black women often struggle to ask for help

[00:21:44] Elsie particularly struggles to ask for help because she's had to be independent from a young age

[00:21:49] and so what does that look like what does that feel like in terms of her literally as someone who's

[00:21:54] been so capable and so self-sufficient and really is very capable and self-sufficient it's not

[00:22:00] that she's not able to do those things it's that the world is not set up to support maybe an

[00:22:05] Elsie you know yes there are lots of decisions that Elsie makes that like might not seem like they

[00:22:10] make sense but I want through you understanding where she's at and where she's come from

[00:22:16] understanding why she might make choices that might seem contrary to what is in her best interest

[00:22:22] it's not like she's just this wayward person who has no regard for anything

[00:22:26] is that actually a lot of the time like she's scared and she feels like she has to hold it together

[00:22:31] even if she's pretending that she's okay you know and this is about her learning to stop pretending

[00:22:39] and it's about being able to drop her to drop her guard but she's lived in the defense for so long

[00:22:45] that that is going to be a long and slow process I mean the book happens over a couple of months

[00:22:50] so it's not like a massive amount of time but she starts to uncover things about herself and

[00:22:56] we have a hint that you know they're going to be together or try to make something of it but we also

[00:23:00] know having watched them for however many months that it's going to be fucking hard and they're

[00:23:05] probably both going to make mistakes and I like I wanted to leave people in that kind of sense of

[00:23:10] feeling but yeah all of the mess all of the lack of understanding between them it was those things

[00:23:15] and actually for me it's like a message behind why I wanted to have these two women who are so

[00:23:20] different was because I believe that like compassion is like the foundation to like a beautiful

[00:23:26] beautiful love story right and so for me this was a book that calls for compassion of understanding

[00:23:32] of listening of watching of observing and stepping back you know without our own assumptions

[00:23:40] in examining what you said about how it's hard for LC to ask for help and a world that is not

[00:23:46] set up for her to succeed what I noticed a lot of then as she was making choices where I was

[00:23:52] just like girl what like why that it almost seemed like she was trying to dig out of shame and

[00:24:01] embarrassment which also looked like self sabotage and her only real outlet was sex

[00:24:10] yes she gave on like fuck girl energy

[00:24:14] yeah she does because she fuck that can for that for her is easy and a lot of the time that you see

[00:24:19] the relationships that she's having like it's not about building like deep connection it's about

[00:24:23] her feeling powerful in that space and that's like a space where she reliably feels powerful

[00:24:28] like when she's lacking power and other elements of her life and so yeah in the worst moment

[00:24:32] or maybe she shouldn't be going on a date she's going on a date because that's the thing

[00:24:36] that she knows is might give her a little rush of like I feel strong what I feel like I got

[00:24:40] this I know how to make this person feel good but then it shifts when she sleeps with like julie

[00:24:45] for example and even be it's like okay well do I need what's gonna make me feel good you know

[00:24:51] and that's really like speaking to the rest of the book like it was never like sex for sex sake

[00:24:57] I wanted to try and map the different kinds of sex she has the different people and what that tells

[00:25:01] you about her emotional state how she sees herself and also what that relationship is or isn't

[00:25:07] going to be you know when she sleeps with julie it's much more like reciprocal in a way and that's

[00:25:12] important to note and you mentioned that and then one of the other main relationships that she has

[00:25:20] besides with julie is with her coworker B who is I guess kind of straight or at least is going

[00:25:27] to be straight I don't think she's straight I think she I think it's hard for her to picture herself

[00:25:33] not ending up in the traditional family yeah like she's deciding to be she's going to pretend

[00:25:40] to be straight as if she doesn't like women like she has a boyfriend and then they're going to

[00:25:46] make a life and do the the heterosexual thing and family and kids and all of that which is also

[00:25:51] valid and she you know I don't mean labeling on such a thing but I assume there will some variation

[00:25:56] on being like queer right but it's yeah but it's like the fact that you assume fundamentally

[00:26:02] that that could never be it's fine if that's not what you want but if you assume fundamentally

[00:26:05] that can ever be whilst you're laying down with Elsie you're in bed together but even though it's

[00:26:11] casual they are friends and they do have a relationship you know which is beyond that form of intimacy

[00:26:17] so it's things when she makes that comment to Elsie about yeah by obviously never marry a woman

[00:26:22] it's not even like Elsie's necessarily someone who is like saying we must all get married it's

[00:26:27] not about that it's about her denying the fact that that could even be a possibility but it's like

[00:26:32] also again like everyone's relationship to Quinnice and their journey to acceptance of that or

[00:26:36] whatever is very different and so I wanted there to be like a difference within these different

[00:26:41] women's relationship to Quinnice without explaining it even necessarily yes because I mean

[00:26:47] Juliet is in a similar situation where I guess if I had to put a label on her at all it would be

[00:26:54] pansexual where she's she's open so she'll date men she'll date women it's whatever but with the

[00:27:00] character of B why was it important for you to explore I guess her rigidity and resistance to

[00:27:08] accepting this side of herself that you know I'll mess around but you know we can't make it

[00:27:16] official or anything like that I think because it's very real and I think because that really

[00:27:22] isn't can be an experience and I think what I wanted to do was to explore how like as queer people

[00:27:29] we can often like internalize structures of like heteronormativity because that's what we are raised

[00:27:35] under so I think even for me I think parenthesis something that I do want to do for example but I

[00:27:40] think the way I'm having to really ask myself questions about like the ways in which I view

[00:27:46] my life and the things that I need to or for like I should do in my life and I think when I first

[00:27:51] even within a relationship with my partner I was like yeah and so I get married here and then like

[00:27:56] what advocates here and like it has to be like that and then you grow up and you evolve and you

[00:28:01] shift and you start to realize and hopefully ask yourself questions about is that what I want

[00:28:06] why do I want it it's okay if I want those things but like why do I want it you know and so I

[00:28:11] suppose through B.I. was wanting to explore those ways in which we can also we can internalize those

[00:28:17] things and like you know in the in the relationships that we're having that don't even the doesn't

[00:28:23] necessarily exist within like gaze okay and then your problematic character Julian dates him for

[00:28:29] a little bit Andrew is he homophobic because he worked my nerves like the teacher said that him

[00:28:35] and Elsi have I was just like do you know here's here's awful and obviously like you know what he

[00:28:41] ends up doing is awful but it's also like in a way like him and Elsi both have so much ego up

[00:28:46] point that they're like arguing over this person who actually has terror and autonomy so it's like

[00:28:52] they're both of them in the beginning both of them are like doing this thing of like

[00:28:58] you know pissing match yeah literally I was trying to find like a like way of saying it that's perfect

[00:29:05] so I suppose you can't be polite it's a pissing match yeah yeah but it's like it was very it was

[00:29:11] very that like a lot of the reason that he moved to the world and then he does because he's in like

[00:29:15] deeply insecure person like he's a deeply insecure person and there's no excuse for like

[00:29:21] the behavior and what happens later on but like the root of that is his own insecurity and need to

[00:29:28] be in control you know yeah absolutely so given those situations relationships and the characters

[00:29:37] that you've created where you're exploring how heteronormativity tries to enforce itself on people

[00:29:46] who dare to live differently often to in the case of your book sometimes violent outcomes even if

[00:29:54] they are not necessarily intended there's real harm done to both Elsi and Juliet and even some

[00:30:02] of the other characters in the book that that populate the world what is it that you want to say

[00:30:09] at a time especially in America I don't know about the UK but especially in America where

[00:30:16] there is so much vitriol and hate and violence and harm that is lobbed and lodged on and against

[00:30:26] the queer community and it only continues to stoke those negative fires no I mean I think that

[00:30:32] applies here as well it's a very scary time and one in which we're living under a very

[00:30:41] conservative government and rights of being scaled back and all of those things are very real I think

[00:30:48] I think as I said before I wasn't writing this for anyone other than myself or like the girl

[00:30:54] is that I'm really like yes I want you to love it but having said that like for me my approach

[00:31:01] and the reason why I'm in during fiction and the reason why I wanted to tell this book in first

[00:31:05] person was because I wanted people to sit to step into Elsi's world to experience things through

[00:31:11] her lens I know I'm not going to say to you that the reason why you know I'm not going to I'm not

[00:31:18] going to explicitly explain that you know the gentrification that is happening like within Peckham

[00:31:22] is due to did I'm going to show you and like you're going to be able to understand what it is

[00:31:29] that I'm showing you without me explicitly having to tell you I don't need to explain what is going

[00:31:36] on in the opening chapter in terms of like housing instability I'm just showing you and you're

[00:31:42] feeling it you're feeling the discomfort right and so for me that was my approach with this book

[00:31:48] and you're also going to feel all the other moments of joy and of celebration and of like queer

[00:31:53] community and of support and I map a lot of spaces within the book like Prim Black I speak about

[00:31:58] musicians I speak about artists like Charlotte on a low day like within this book who are really

[00:32:03] important and to me transformative kind of facets within the queer communities specifically

[00:32:08] within the UK today I think one of the things that is so sad about like queer history and again

[00:32:15] something that I'm like looking at with another kind of bigger project I'm working on but it's

[00:32:19] like the lack of archival material of queer stories it's like I want to create something that speaks

[00:32:26] the moment in which it was written and that you can step into and feel like you have an understanding

[00:32:32] of Elsie's world at the time and that's my way of doing it with this specific piece of work

[00:32:39] and actually it's a love letter to the Elsies and the reason why I'm able to show up and make

[00:32:44] the work that I am it's all of those things insane with the grandma and her journey with her

[00:32:50] and actually being able to map how that looks different for her to Elsie and how we're all in

[00:32:55] twine no they're not family but they are family and so for me it was like this is like the biggest hug

[00:33:02] and the biggest kind of like love letter to queer black women like at the end of the day that's

[00:33:08] how I choose to show up for show love for show appreciation for really it's about appreciation

[00:33:15] gratitude for this kind of incredible community who yes it exists like in the face of so much

[00:33:23] adversity because often you feel like the first ever experience of certain kind of being or

[00:33:29] but then when you start to engage and dialogue you realize that there's so much to be drawn from

[00:33:34] others who have come before and have been doing the work but maybe the internet didn't document it

[00:33:39] in the way they document the work that we're doing now you also said you didn't write this for

[00:33:44] anyone but yourself and the girlies who you really wanted you really wanted to feel your work so

[00:33:52] what do you want the girlies to get from Rosewater

[00:33:56] what do I want the girlies to fill I want the girlies to you know what I don't ever want to tell

[00:34:01] people exactly what I want them to fill from my work but I want them to fill something whether

[00:34:05] that's like sadness whether that's stress whether that is hornyness you know whatever

[00:34:11] realization or feeling that comes from it I'm here for I just I would be sad if you read it and

[00:34:16] they didn't make you feel nothing about anything or have an opinion or be critical of and engage with

[00:34:22] you know whatever I just want you to be really in I want you to be really in else's world and in

[00:34:27] the work and let's talk about it I love talking about it all right so I want to switch to a speed

[00:34:32] around in the game before I let you go for the afternoon what is your favorite book oh my god

[00:34:40] that is so hard I'm gonna say here comes to some I'm gonna say here comes to some it's one of my

[00:34:46] favorite books I'm gonna say that but there's loads and I feel stressed but that's listening up

[00:34:51] okay who is your favorite author well because I've just said Nicole Dennis Benz book she's one

[00:34:58] of my favorite authors and Bernadine Everesto especially her earlier books Mr. Love Man the

[00:35:04] Emperor's Babe there's some of my favorite books so yeah let's say let's say Bernadine let's say

[00:35:10] Auntie Bernadine okay hey because you mentioned casually that you have a thing for folks who do poetry

[00:35:21] who was your favorite poet oh you know what and this is a really like contemporary choice and I'm

[00:35:28] biased because I've just interviewed her about this poetry collection but I do think it's incredibly

[00:35:33] special and it made me emotional and made me feel all the things and be so deeply moved but

[00:35:37] Aloe Parks the musician is just written a book called The Magic Border and it's so special

[00:35:43] and so special and it like incorporates photography as well I feel like it's a project that allows

[00:35:52] you to sit with and explore so let's say Aloe for now okay because you've worked in lots of

[00:35:58] different mediums what do you think is the best book to movie or TV series adaptation oh fab okay

[00:36:06] honestly and I mean maybe this is like an easy one or like a obvious one but I just think it was

[00:36:15] perfect was the adaptation of Sally Reenie's Normal People I think it's phenomenal I think

[00:36:20] I actually kind of preferred the adaptation to the book but it recaptures so well that like

[00:36:29] intense teenage love thing and like the thing that I love about that is that it's like

[00:36:34] this is what I was talking about like people should whether it's their experience or not they

[00:36:38] should be able to come away from it feeling that they can take something away and that is rooted

[00:36:42] so in a specific world age demographic community all the rest of it and yet it's so incredibly

[00:36:47] universal and so I think it was and the casting was amazing and I just think it's it's a beautiful

[00:36:55] series that I kind of returned to again and again if money were no object where would you go

[00:37:01] what would you do and where would you live you see me now it's like I could say loads of like really

[00:37:06] tropical places and I'm like Caribbean and I love being in Jamaica and etc etc but if I'm not next

[00:37:13] to my like people I'm like what's the point so if I could move everyone I'd go to Jamaica and if not

[00:37:19] I would probably just end up back in South London to be fair and what would you be doing

[00:37:26] making films making art like I I feel like regardless of how much money I theoretically have

[00:37:35] I'd want to remain curious about the world it would mean that I could work slower which should

[00:37:39] be amazing but I think I still would be wanting to tell stories and like collaborate with people

[00:37:45] what brings you joy I love feeding people I love feeding people I love tending to my garden

[00:37:52] with my herbs and my vegetables I love that like I food I mean like food is such a big part of

[00:37:57] rose water as well but it's such a big part of like and I know for so many black people and

[00:38:01] Caribbean people etc it is like the way that you show love like my grandma is the one who you

[00:38:08] know the Ruey the Curly all the Guineas stuff the pepper pot and when my mom and auntie were vegan

[00:38:13] like temporarily she was so upset like actually heartbroken because she was like this is how I show

[00:38:19] you lots because vegetarian cooking is not like her thing I was like quite upsetting and I think for

[00:38:24] me that's how I feel about food and about cooking and so wherever I travel whatever country I go to

[00:38:29] I like we'll do a cooking class with like a local auntie because I want to like get to understand

[00:38:35] why they love food you know I'm taking a bit of that back with me into my cooking but I'm in my

[00:38:40] kitchen now and that's like it's my favorite place yeah so with that said what is the best meal

[00:38:48] you've ever had the mouth drop oh honestly my favorite meal my favorite meal and it's a simple

[00:39:04] one it's probably like my nan's courage I can have like freshly made roti like it's like simple delicious

[00:39:12] home cooked food and it's not I've had like really amazing elaborate meals and you know like

[00:39:17] luxurious stuff and whatever actually that's the stuff that makes me feel the most comforted

[00:39:24] what brings you peace I think I'm most at peace when I'm near to a body of water

[00:39:32] um like I moved out of London and I lived by a body of water and I'm I love being in

[00:39:38] mortem being there water but I think like watching the waves watching the sun set on the sea

[00:39:44] just being around it being able to hear it I find that really I don't know there's something

[00:39:50] about it that yeah it makes me feel incredibly incredibly grounded that and I think being

[00:39:56] surrounded by people that I love like family my partner and then being happy um but I think

[00:40:02] and we've had a lot of loss and a lot of you know so I really value moments when we're all just

[00:40:06] together and we're just happy but I think yeah them and some more are gorgeous

[00:40:12] all right so our game is called rewriting the classics classic is however you define it

[00:40:18] name one book you wish you would have written

[00:40:22] I don't even know if it's like I wish that I wrote it but I just wish that I could articulate my

[00:40:26] grief in the way that this writer is able to articulate hers so it's a book called crying in

[00:40:31] H. Martin I'm sure you know but it's and it's like a beautiful um exploration of grief and so

[00:40:36] many people have just been have been giving me books on grief books on grief and they're also

[00:40:40] it's kind of depressing and as much as this book is sad and incredibly moving it's actually really

[00:40:45] joyous and really complicated and it's like reflecting on a relationship with a parent that is like

[00:40:51] imperfect but also still so full of love and for me I don't know the way that she writes that

[00:40:56] and also the anchor being around like food and the relationship they have and the time that they

[00:41:01] would spend and the mall together like trying all this stuff I was like oh my god this is like

[00:41:08] wow moments that are making me feel things deeply but it's not without the joy or the messiness

[00:41:14] I think that is true to grief so I really appreciate it I'm really grateful that she's written

[00:41:19] this gorgeous book really name one book where you want to change the ending and how would you do it

[00:41:26] hahaha you know I'm like a serial non-finisher of books if I'm not feeling it so I'm like

[00:41:35] so you want to change the middle so I so I just wouldn't I just wouldn't have gotten there

[00:41:41] the last question for this section is name a book that you think is overrated and why

[00:41:47] I mean what is what is overrated maybe like the power of now is quite overrated look

[00:41:53] I feel like that self-help kind of guide there we go that works yeah I don't want to go that

[00:42:03] now would I know the real answer all right my final question is we talk okay final question for today

[00:42:10] when you didn't go on and among the ancestors what would you like someone to write about the

[00:42:15] legacy of words and work that you've left behind wow I would want whoever is writing about me

[00:42:23] in my legacy and my work to reflect on the fact that everything I do is like rooted in love I think

[00:42:31] that would be the key sentiment and the key message because that is the thing that I

[00:42:37] can all of the work that I do big thank you to live little for being here today on black and

[00:42:44] published make sure you check out Liv's debut novel rose water out now from get lifted books yes

[00:42:52] the imprint by John Legend and if you're not following Liv check her out on the socials she's at

[00:42:59] live s little on instagram that's our show for the week if you like this episode and want more

[00:43:08] black and published head to our IG page it's at black and published and that's B okay and published

[00:43:18] there I've posted a bonus clip from my interview with Liv about including queer history in her novel

[00:43:24] and the face of deliberate erasure in the states and the UK make sure you check it out and let me know

[00:43:30] what you think in the comments I'll highlight John next week when our guests will be Kim Coleman foot

[00:43:38] author of the novel Coleman Hill I had so much jealousy honestly and I was like this jealousy is not

[00:43:44] productive for me to write you know because ultimately I have to just keep on writing producing and

[00:43:50] improving my game so I just basically like remove myself from that world kind of really staying out of

[00:43:56] the mix and just keeping my head down I was like the only thing that you can control is what you put out

[00:44:02] and I just kept coming back to you know why I had to ask myself personally like why are you doing

[00:44:07] this why are you writing all this and it was like okay I'm committed to telling this story

[00:44:13] that's next week on black and published I'll talk to you then peace